1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, this is Gilbert. In the coming weeks, we're 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: bringing you something special, something I think Bone Value listeners 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: will really want to hear. Over the last few years, 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 1: I've met so many of you at Crime Con live 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: events and online, and I've been struck by your curiosity 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: about how we made the podcast and what was happening 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: behind the scenes of our investigation. One of the most 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: flattering things I hear from our most loyal listeners is 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: that you want more, you want updates, and you want 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: to hear from the people in this story you've come 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: to care so much about. 12 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 2: We got you. 13 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: As many of you know, I decided to write a 14 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: book about the Leo Schofield case. It's called Bone Valley, 15 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: A true story of injustice and redemption in the heart 16 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: of Florida, and it's now out in the world with 17 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: some terrific early reviews. When a lot of you first 18 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: heard that I was writing the book, the response was, 19 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: you have to read the audiobook. So I did, and 20 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: as a special thank you to Bone Valley listeners, we're 21 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: releasing exclusive excerpts from the audiobook, moments that take you 22 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,559 Speaker 1: behind the scenes of our investigation into Michelle Schofield's murder 23 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: scenes that didn't make it into the podcast, and even 24 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: some new voices. In a way, this book takes you 25 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: behind the crime scene tape, but my goal was still 26 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: to give readers the same narrative, tension and intimacy that 27 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 1: made the podcast what it is. In our first installment 28 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: of Bone Valley, from the Mic to the Page, we're 29 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: starting with a bit of a twist. After the audiobook's epilogue, 30 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: Leo Schofield turns the tables and interviews me. To no 31 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: one's surprise, Leo was very comfortable in this role, as 32 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: I think you'll be able to tell. Here are the 33 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: first sixteen minutes from that hour long conversation, which I 34 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: hope you'll enjoy as much as I did. 35 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 3: Hi, listeners, it's Gilbert King. Thank you for listening to 36 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 3: the Bone Valley audiobook Today. I'm honored to be joined 37 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 3: in the studio by Leo Schofield, the man whose story 38 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 3: you've just heard. 39 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 4: Hi. I'm Leo Schofield, and I'm excited to be here 40 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 4: with Gilbert. While Gilbert has asked me so many questions 41 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 4: over the years, today I have the opportunity to ask 42 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 4: him some of my own questions. 43 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 2: So here we are Gilbert. Oh boy, I don't like 44 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: this already. 45 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 4: We've been together since I was thinking about this last 46 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 4: night twenty eighteen, correct. 47 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, twenty eighteen, the first time. Yeah. 48 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 4: Did you ever envision this moment here? 49 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 3: No? 50 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: Shit, that's starting early. 51 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: No, you know, I just I remember so many times showing. 52 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 3: Up at Harty and just sitting across for you and 53 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 3: just feeling the shame that you would come in your 54 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 3: blues and be escorted by a guard. And at the 55 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 3: end of this conversation, we get to walk out to 56 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 3: the parking lot and go off on our lives and 57 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 3: you go back in your cell. 58 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,839 Speaker 2: And I think the thing that really. 59 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 3: Got to me the most was that I knew from 60 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 3: talking to Chrissy that we're bringing up the most horrific 61 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 3: moments of your life. And we go and walk out 62 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 3: into the car and drive home and have a meal, 63 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 3: and you go back into your cell and have to 64 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 3: live with the aftermath of this trauma that you've just recounted. 65 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 3: And I always felt bad about that, and I don't 66 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 3: how did you deal with that? 67 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 4: Yeah? You know, And I appreciate you saying that, because 68 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 4: I remember those moments myself and for me from my end, 69 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 4: I would get back to the cell, and while it 70 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 4: was difficult to relive those moments and keep going over it, 71 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 4: I had a great hope that something would be different 72 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 4: in the telling of it this time because it was you, 73 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 4: you know, I mean, you're Gilbert King, I mean really, 74 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 4: and that hope is what helped me get through another day, 75 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 4: another week, another year, you know. And when we started 76 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 4: this in twenty eighteen, when you came on board, we 77 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 4: were talking about a book. 78 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: You remember that, Yeah, yeah, yeah, you didn't know what 79 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 2: a podcast was. 80 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 4: And then you come with the podcast and do you 81 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 4: remember do you remember telling me we were going to 82 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 4: do the podcast? 83 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: I kind of do, Well, what did you say the reasons? 84 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: What is a podcast? 85 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 4: And then when you described it to me, I said 86 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 4: that sounds like AM radio. 87 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: I had no reference for it. 88 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 4: You know, it's thirty six years while at that time 89 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 4: thirty two thirty one years in prison, and had no 90 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 4: reference for a podcast, never experienced it, and yet Bone 91 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 4: Valley turned into the most incredible experiences of my life 92 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 4: in getting to know you. You know some of my favorite books. 93 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 4: You know, you write in a genre that I really enjoy. Anyway, 94 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 4: so you're the author of Devil in the Grove. You 95 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 4: got a Politzer Prize for that. Beneath the Ruthless Sun. 96 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 4: I've read both of those, and one that wasn't as 97 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 4: well known that was really an emotional book for me 98 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 4: was The Execution of Willie Francis. Yeah, and so I 99 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 4: kind of got a feel for what you write about. 100 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,119 Speaker 4: And so I'm just wondering, because this is all dealing 101 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 4: with civil rights stuff, wrongful convictions, wrongful deaths in a 102 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:45,239 Speaker 4: system of justice, and I'm wondering what it is about 103 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 4: that subject that was so important to you as a person. 104 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think it's just one of these 105 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 3: things where from a very early age, I remember being 106 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 3: drawn to books like count A Monte Cristo, you know, 107 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 3: like justices, wrongfully accused people. I just felt like the 108 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 3: passion of the narrators. Papion was another book I remember 109 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 3: reading as a young person, and wrongfully convicted, sentenced to 110 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 3: Devil's Island, and this it is kind of an adventure 111 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 3: story in some respect, but at the heart of these 112 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 3: stories it's about a man losing his freedom, and for 113 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 3: some reason that just really resonated with me, even at 114 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 3: an early age, I grew up at a time well 115 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 3: we're kind of close in age, but watching Roots on 116 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 3: television and just realizing like, this is part of American history, 117 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: and like I didn't know anything about this, and just 118 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 3: being drawn by those injustices. This always affected my sense 119 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 3: of the stories I was drawn to, and so most 120 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 3: of the work I was doing was mostly set in 121 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 3: the pre civil rights movements, the forties and the fifties. 122 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 3: So you know, when Judge Scott Cupp came to me 123 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 3: and gave me that card, I was not thinking about, 124 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 3: let me try and do something in the current day. 125 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 3: I really felt like the past was where I wanted 126 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: to stay. And you know, he told me about it. 127 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 3: I was intry because he's a judge and he's saying 128 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 3: there's an innocent man out there who was still in prison, 129 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 3: and you know, it's hard to just say no, I 130 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 3: won't look into it. I think I mentioned this in 131 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 3: the book that you know, I kind of wanted to 132 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 3: get him off the phone. But the easy way to 133 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 3: do it was say, all right, I'll look at the transcript, 134 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 3: and you know that started the whole process for me. 135 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 3: I started reading, I'm like, how is this stuff happening now? 136 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 3: I knew it happened in the forties and fifties, but 137 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 3: how is this stuff i'm reading about happening now? And 138 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 3: that's when I've sort of said, you know, I'm going 139 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 3: to look into this more. I said to Judge cub 140 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 3: what's what's the next step? And I remember he said, 141 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 3: I think it's time you meet Leo. And he kind 142 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 3: of said it to me in a way like you're 143 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 3: in for something, You're in for something. Where do you 144 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 3: meet this guy? And I didn't believe him to be 145 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 3: honest with you. I'm always very skeptical, but that was 146 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 3: the way I experienced it. As soon as we met, 147 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 3: and as soon as I started hearing your story and 148 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 3: sitting across from you, it affected me in a way 149 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 3: that I really was drawn. I remember there was something 150 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 3: you said, so this is the story you remember. 151 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: For those words? 152 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not going to change. I'm going to talk 153 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 4: about that in a minute because I want I want 154 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 4: to talk about our relationship. 155 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 2: But U and thank you for that. 156 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 4: Really, So would you say what would you say is 157 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 4: different about this book in comparison to the others that 158 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 4: you have written. 159 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: There's a sense of urgency that comes to a story 160 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 3: when the people you're dealing with are sitting across from 161 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: you and you can see the pain and you can 162 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 3: feel the injustice. It's one thing going through the documents 163 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 3: and reading trial transcripts and appellate records and newspaper accounts 164 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 3: from seventy years ago, and you know, as painful as 165 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 3: those are, but there's something else entirely sitting across from 166 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 3: a man who is in his prison blues and is 167 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 3: going to go right back into his cell when you're done, 168 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 3: and recognizing that you're reading about an injustice and this 169 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 3: man's life is still affected by that, it just hits 170 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 3: you in a very different way. The immediate see of it, 171 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 3: the urge to sort of say and I know I 172 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 3: said this to you later on in the process, after 173 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 3: I fully investigated your story, I said, I don't know 174 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 3: what this is going to do for you, how it's 175 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 3: going to change your case or your life, but I 176 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 3: can promise you this, We. 177 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 2: Are going to change the narrative. 178 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 3: And I believe that that is the one thing I 179 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 3: could promise you that the narrative is going to be different, 180 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 3: because everything I looked into is wrong and I could 181 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 3: feel that, and I knew I could only make you 182 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 3: that promise that I can. I'm going to change the 183 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,599 Speaker 3: official story here. I don't know if it's going to 184 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 3: help you. Frankly, I didn't think. I didn't think you'd 185 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 3: ever get out. 186 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 4: I'll just be honest with Well, obviously it did help, 187 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 4: the narrative changing and getting across to so many people, 188 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 4: including people who have the ability to make a difference 189 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 4: in my life. I don't think I would be here 190 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 4: without just the way you told the narrative. You know, 191 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 4: and while you're saying that, I'm thinking about this, this 192 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 4: is pretty emotional for me too. You had some really 193 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 4: good help along the way. And a woman you mentioned 194 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 4: in the book who is a dear friend to both 195 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 4: of us now. Her name was Kelsey Decker, and she 196 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 4: did a lot and this thing, and I know the 197 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 4: book explains a lot of what she does. I want 198 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 4: to ask you about what her emotional response was to this. 199 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 4: Going further, I know she had a big response in it. 200 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 3: Well, you know, she started out as a researcher, and 201 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 3: so she was ahead of me because I was working 202 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: on other projects. And I remember her going through the transcript, 203 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 3: going through the appellate records and just the intensity of 204 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 3: somebody young who's just drawn to this story and just saying, 205 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 3: you have to see this, Look at what they did, 206 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 3: Look at what the state did, Look what the police 207 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 3: did here, Like I could feel her energy and her 208 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 3: commitment to this, and it kind of drove me a 209 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 3: little bit, because someone who's seen a lot more and 210 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 3: been studying these kind of cases for decades, just to 211 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 3: see how young people are really affected by injustice. 212 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 2: It's kind of contagious. And it affected me. 213 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: In a way, like I was feeding off that she 214 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 3: was just overwhelmed by the injustice of this, and it 215 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: reminded me of how I felt when I was younger 216 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 3: when I would read these stories, and I could just 217 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 3: see how much time she was putting into the research 218 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 3: and just pointing these things out to me and wanting 219 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 3: to talk about them, and it was really contagious, and 220 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 3: it really helped my enthusiasm because having someone to just 221 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 3: share this with and just to be able to talk 222 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 3: to constantly and work through all these different things that 223 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 3: we were learning about your case that. 224 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 2: Weren't brought out in trial, that weren't brought up, and 225 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 2: here we were seeing it. 226 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 3: It was a tremendous asset to be able to work 227 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 3: with someone who was as committed as I felt I was. 228 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, and she was definitely that because I remember 229 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 4: being interviewed by her how special those moments was for 230 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 4: both of us, and specifically because she wasn't. 231 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: Much older than Michelle. 232 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, and I felt her connection to that, 233 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 4: and I think it was very well covered in one 234 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 4: of the Bone Valley episodes in one of the most 235 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 4: emotional times of me, because it was hard for me 236 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 4: to listen to Bone Valley and here in Elsie after 237 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 4: you guys had been in at the pot Commie Sheriff's 238 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 4: office reviewing evidence and you got in the car and 239 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 4: she breaks down crying and was relating to Michelle and 240 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 4: the evidence and everything, and it was just one of 241 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 4: the most it's choking me up now even thinking about it. 242 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 4: I mean, and I had such a deep and have 243 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 4: such a deep connection with Kelsey because of that, and 244 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,839 Speaker 4: she brings so much validation to the innocence claim. 245 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, and everything about that 246 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 3: was real and raw, and we really didn't know what 247 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 3: we were doing while we were investigating. We just kept 248 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 3: the microphone on all the time. And those are just 249 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 3: things that came out, and we just decided we had 250 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 3: to just keep recording and just we'll see what we 251 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: get from this, because we don't really didn't know what 252 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 3: we're doing outside of the interviews. But I do remember 253 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 3: that moment because at this point, Michelle was always portrayed 254 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 3: as the victim, and she was a nameless victim. And 255 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 3: by this point we'd met you, we'd met Michelle's brother, 256 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 3: and she became a living, breathing person in our story, 257 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 3: and you sort of want to honor that in a 258 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 3: way that reflects a human being and not just a 259 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 3: trope or a character who's no longer alive. You know, 260 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 3: she lost her life at eighteen. What was that life like? 261 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 3: And I think we felt a real responsibility to portray 262 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 3: that in an honest way. And I think one of 263 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 3: the most honest ways is just looking at the evidence 264 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 3: and seeing all the evidence of they're Michelle's last moments 265 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 3: on Earth, and it's starting to fill in a story. 266 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 3: And then you see these photographs, and you know the 267 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 3: photographs just I know you've seen them. 268 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 2: They're just. 269 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 3: If you don't know the person or you don't know 270 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 3: anything about their lives. 271 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 2: There's a numbness to it. 272 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 3: But when it's somebody you've been talking to family members, 273 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 3: people who loved her, it hits you in a hard way. 274 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 3: I felt it too, Kelsey felt it in a much 275 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 3: more raw way. 276 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, and I definitely appreciated that, and she is 277 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 4: forever endeared to my heart because of it. Let's talk 278 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 4: about the book a little bit, if you don't mind, 279 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 4: And one of the questions I don't think listeners would 280 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 4: want to ask. We've had a lot of downloads on 281 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 4: the Bone Valley podcast. I think nine episodes and then 282 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 4: the bonus episodes that went with it, right covering you, 283 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 4: covering release from prison, Yeah, right through, and it covers 284 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 4: a lot of the journey from Michelle's Marta forward to 285 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 4: that release. 286 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 2: Why a book now? 287 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 3: Originally when we first thought about podcasts, I thought it 288 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 3: made sense. 289 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 2: You're here. 290 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 3: You were such a dynamic storyteller, your voice it was 291 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 3: just something I wasn't used to, and I just I 292 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 3: remember thinking people need to hear Leo speaking about his 293 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 3: case and his conviction and hopes for release and exoneration. 294 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 3: It was powerful just being inside of prison with you 295 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 3: for must have been a dozen times, but I felt 296 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 3: like there was so much that we couldn't really cover 297 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 3: once I started spending years on this. There's parts, especially 298 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 3: like in the trial, we don't have audio for that stuff. 299 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 3: And there's some really dramatic scenes that take place in 300 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 3: the trial that I felt like in the podcast, I 301 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 3: just have to be reading transcript and it didn't feel 302 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 3: as powerful as a recreating the scene in a book. 303 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 3: I felt like I wasn't done with it, and there 304 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 3: was so much more that I wanted to add to it, 305 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 3: so much more of the research that I couldn't really 306 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 3: use in the podcast, but it was there. It was 307 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 3: what I'm used to was writing books, and now I 308 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 3: have this in front of me, I have these voices 309 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 3: and these stories. I just felt like there was so 310 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 3: much more to tell, and that's what I really wanted. 311 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: I think with listeners they're going to get a lot 312 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: of new material, but I. 313 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 3: Wanted people that read books, who don't listen to podcasts, 314 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 3: I want them to experience this narrative. And already it's 315 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 3: kind of interesting to see like early copies going out 316 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 3: there and people who have never heard the podcast and 317 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 3: reading this and hearing their reaction to your story. 318 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: I knew it was there I. 319 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 3: Kind of resisted a book for a while, but eventually 320 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 3: I was like, no, this has to be. 321 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 2: There's so much more here, so much more we couldn't cover. 322 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 3: And also like I just have sensibilities as someone who 323 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 3: writes narrative nonfiction like this feels like my natural story. 324 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 2: Podcasting never feels natural to me. 325 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 3: I hate my voice. I really don't like it. Others 326 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 3: seem to not mind it, but I just really wanted 327 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 3: to write the book. So the audiobook is a really 328 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 3: good compromise. 329 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: Because I get to read it. That's great. 330 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 4: Well, just so you know, I've heard a lot of 331 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 4: people comment on your voice on the podcast, and that's 332 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 4: one of the sales for it. 333 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 2: Puts in the sea. 334 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 4: They say, no, I didn't hear that. You might have 335 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 4: heard other things the book does. And I was privileged 336 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 4: to be able to read an early copy of it 337 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 4: and the emotional response that I had to it, both 338 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 4: in giggling in the places where you you know, were 339 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 4: critiqueing something I wore a setter or something like that. 340 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 4: It was very funny. I'd laugh and my wife would say, 341 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 4: what now, what did you I need it too? 342 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 3: I wondered, if I know there's one part in the 343 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 3: book where I describe you, and this comes from you, Leo, 344 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 3: because you talk about having this mismatched suit that you're borrowing, 345 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 3: like a jacket from your dad, pants from Dave the 346 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 3: bass player, none of them fit because you don't own 347 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 3: a suit. And now you've got this haircut that they've 348 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 3: given you in prison. And I think you remember saying something, 349 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 3: it's not like something you get it supercuts right, and 350 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 3: just feeling like a clown, sort of showing up in 351 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 3: front of a jury poping life savers, not realizing your 352 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 3: life is on the line and you're being judged and 353 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: not having any sensibility of that. And I remember seeing 354 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 3: this one photograph of you sitting next to your attorney, 355 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 3: Jack Edmond, and you kind of look like one of 356 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 3: those eighties magicians, you know, like your hair is not 357 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 3: quite right. There's the lapels on your suit are kind 358 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 3: of big. And I was like, this guy looks like 359 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 3: a magician. I'm gonna run away from him. And I thought, man, 360 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 3: Leo's got to read this. I wondered if you'd be offended. 361 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 4: I did, And that's one of the definitely one of 362 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 4: the places where I giggled and my wife asked, what 363 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 4: is it? And I read it to him. Thank you 364 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 4: for that bringing humor to a story that otherwise is 365 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 4: extremely emotionally sad. For me. 366 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's not a lot of humor at all. 367 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 4: Right, right, but you covered that really, really well. I 368 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 4: think even listeners of the podcast need to read this book. 369 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this interview. I can't tell you 370 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: how nice it was to be speaking to Leo in 371 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: a studio instead of inside a prison. In the coming weeks, 372 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: we'll be releasing more excerpts from the Bone Valley audiobook 373 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: right here. Next week's excerpt will include some behind the 374 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,719 Speaker 1: scenes moments from our investigation into Jeremy Scott's early years, 375 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: as well as background from one of the most talked 376 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: about scenes from the podcast. And if you still can't 377 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: get enough Bone Valley, the book is available in stores everywhere, 378 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: and the audiobook version can be found wherever you download 379 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 1: your audio books. Please see the show notes for details. 380 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: Thanks very much for listening, and please keep any out 381 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: for our next installment of Bone Valley. From the Mic 382 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: to the Page. The next four excerpts to be released 383 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: after this first one will be available ad free exclusively 384 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: on Lava for Good, plus on Apple Podcasts.