1 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: I have four sisters. I'm the youngest. I have no 2 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: knowledge of living without backup support, love, help, cheers, advice, 3 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: and loyalty. In my life, the four of them have 4 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: never once hesitated, wavered, or were even late to show 5 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: up for me. Not ever. Two of them are retired teachers, 6 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: now so devoted to the lives of children that one 7 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: of them even foster two of her students to make 8 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: sure they had every advantage to get to college. One 9 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: of them still teaches Sunday school to this day. Two 10 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: of them are nurses, not just nurses. One has a PhD, 11 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: and one is a Level one trauminer. The worst cases 12 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: possible are the one she sees. They literally help save 13 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 1: lives of people they don't know. So when I tell 14 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: you they are some of the best people I've ever 15 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: known in my life, I have proof. So if anyone 16 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: ever slights them in the smallest way, says something negative, 17 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: makes a joke at their expense, I'm done with that 18 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: person forever now. My children Hunt and Caroline will sometimes 19 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: joke with me and tell me that they find it 20 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: hard to believe that I can sound just as angry 21 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: now telling a story about something that happened to one 22 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: of my sisters fifty years ago. Huck even said to me, Mom, 23 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: you can hold a grudge harder than anybody we've ever seen. 24 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: I was taken aback by that comment because I see 25 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: it so differently. A grudge to me almost sounds negative, 26 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: whereas loyalty to me as a positive. And I am loyal, honey. 27 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: So I said to him, Look, I don't hold a grudge. 28 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: I have no ill will or resentment towards these people. 29 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: I'm just not going to give them a second chance 30 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: to harm one of my sisters. Huck said, not the noun, Mama, 31 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,119 Speaker 1: the verb you won't give or grant or allow access 32 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: to you or your friendship, or an opportunity to be 33 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: your family once somebody hurts them. And I laughed and 34 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: I said, oh yeah, that verb will get you. Alcatraz 35 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: the Rock nineteen thirty four became the most secure prison 36 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: in the world. Y'all know the inmates that were there, 37 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: Al Capone, George machine Gun, Kelly Whitey Vulger, the bird 38 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: Man of Alcatraz. It's surrounded by cold rough waters. The 39 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: guards they checked on these inmates dozens of times a day. 40 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: They had armed guards in the towers, bob wire fences, 41 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: locks escaped literally seemed like an impossible feat. Thirty six 42 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: men tried in fourteen different escapes, but only one remains 43 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: a mystery. Today, we have a family connection. Ken Widner 44 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: is joining us. He is the nephew of John and 45 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: Clarence England, two of the men that are part of 46 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: that great escape. Mister Ken, welcome to his own seven. 47 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 48 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: Well, I got a chance to sit with you last weekend, 49 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna tell you something. The twelve year old 50 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: me walked in that room, it was like Christmas morning. 51 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: You had a box with you of some artifacts and 52 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: family treasures that you so willingly shared with me. Here 53 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: in your family history. Your family story is so important 54 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: because again, if you only hear the FBI side, or 55 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: you maybe only hear you know one or two experts, 56 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: or watch one movie or read one or two books, 57 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: there is a component that I think is necessary. And 58 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: that's y'all side. 59 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: That is so true. You know you talked earlier about loyalty. 60 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 2: I have found no greater loyalty than the Angland family 61 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: that they had for each other. Maybe it was because 62 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,799 Speaker 2: they grew up so poor and there were so many 63 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: of them seven girls and total, seven boys in total, 64 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 2: that they had to rely upon each other. You know 65 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: that statement that blood is thicker than water is true 66 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: with the Angland family. They knew how to protect one another, 67 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 2: They knew how to cover for one another, and it 68 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: is definitely true when it comes to the story of 69 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: the escape that occurred in nineteen sixty two. 70 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: Tell everybody what you told me about the day that 71 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: the escape hit the news. What were you doing and 72 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: your mama doing? 73 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 2: People have asked me many times, you know how the 74 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 2: Alcatraz story relates to me? And you know I always 75 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 2: say it has been with me ever since, ever since 76 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 2: I was a year and a half old. I was 77 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: sitting on the floor of my parents' small home. We 78 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 2: lived in Orlando, Florida, Florida, where I grew up and 79 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 2: was born. My dad had moved the family from Ruskin, 80 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: Florida to Orlando job wise, the rest of the Angling 81 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: clan lived in Ruskin, Florida, near just outside of Tampa. 82 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 2: My mom tells me this story, and I've heard it 83 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 2: many times. On June the twelfth, just after lunch, nineteen 84 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: sixty two, I'm sitting on the floor playing with my toys. 85 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 2: She is ironing clothes for neighbors. This is how she 86 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: made extra money for the family. My father didn't make 87 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: a whole lot at that time. And she said that 88 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: she was listening to the radio. We didn't own a 89 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 2: television at that time. All of a sudden, this news 90 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: break came across the radio. There had been an escape 91 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: at the Aquatraz prison. Mamham said she knew exactly right then, 92 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 2: she knew exactly who it was. She said, she grabbed me, 93 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: picked me up, ran across to the next door neighbor's 94 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 2: house who had a TV. And she said she held 95 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 2: me in her lap as she watched TV and her 96 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 2: two brothers prison photographs are plastered upon the screen and 97 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 2: they talk about the escape. So although I probably don't 98 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,239 Speaker 2: remember it, which I don't at a year and a half, 99 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: but that was my experience to Alcatraz and the escape. 100 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: It's ironic also that a year and a half after 101 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 2: that to the date, almost I am the last nephew 102 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: along with my sister, my mom, and my brother who 103 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: have the opportunity to visit with Alfred England, who is 104 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 2: the third brother who gets like I told you, kind 105 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: of lost in history. With this, but has an important 106 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: story to tell in this escape. We're the last people 107 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: to actually see him right before he dies and kilby 108 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: prison in Alabama for something that he told my mom 109 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: and my dad about the brothers and what happened to them. 110 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 2: But that's another story that we can talk about later. 111 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 2: But it's just very odd that it was a year 112 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,679 Speaker 2: and a half that, you know, I see the escape 113 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: on TV, and a year and a half later, I'm 114 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: now meeting with one of the actual brothers who participated 115 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: in this process. 116 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because Alfred was in the Atlanta penitentiary. 117 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: This is kind of like a puzzle, and there are 118 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 2: a lot of small pieces to this puzzle. I had 119 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: gotten to the point in my life where I at 120 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: one time I actually didn't believe they made it. There 121 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: was a time in my life I really did not 122 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: believe that they actually made it. I just assumed, like 123 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: everyone else, Okay, it was just a kind of an 124 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:41,959 Speaker 2: impossible feat that they did. Until I discovered a piece 125 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 2: of the puzzle that was given to me in twenty sixteen, 126 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 2: and from that piece, other pieces started falling into place, 127 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: and it developed into this story that is truly unbelievable. 128 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 2: And this piece of the puzzle that was given to me, 129 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 2: and I can't tell, I can't say who gave it 130 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 2: to me because I don't want to get them in trouble. 131 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: But this piece of the puzzle really took off for 132 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 2: me and the other writer that helped me write this 133 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 2: book that's about to come out next year in two 134 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 2: thousand and twenty four, and it is really the central 135 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 2: piece of everything about this story. When I got it, 136 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: I just it's almost kind of like, you know, you 137 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 2: have this puzzle, you put it in together, and you're 138 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,719 Speaker 2: looking for that one piece, you know, and all of 139 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: a sudden, that one piece that eluded you for all 140 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 2: this time suddenly comes into play, and that all of 141 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 2: a sudden, all these other pieces that you've seen that 142 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 2: you didn't really kind of know how they fit together 143 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 2: then starts making sense. Now. I will say that the 144 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: photograph that we shared in twenty fifteen, that was given 145 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 2: to us from their friend Fred Breezey, which has been 146 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: analyzed by I know at least five independent people that 147 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 2: analyze facial recognition software that can take a photograph and 148 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: compare it with something else. Even in the show The the 149 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: Marshal that we were working with Art Roderick. He he 150 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: hired his own independent person that that looked at the 151 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 2: photograph came back as a ninety nine percent match that 152 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: you have John England. You know there's two men in 153 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 2: that in that photograph is John Anglan and Clarence And 154 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: we've had it. We've had it three D rendered. We've 155 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 2: the latest one that we did with Josh Gates, an 156 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: expedition unknown. They took the most up to date AI 157 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: type software that is being used by the US government 158 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 2: today and they came back with an unbelievable ninety nine 159 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 2: point seven percent match on John England. So you know 160 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: that to me is undisputable proof that one that they 161 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 2: did make it, because that photograph was proven to be 162 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: taken in the early seventies, sometimes between nineteen seventy and 163 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five in Brazil, correct in Brazil, on their farm. 164 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: Like I said to you, you know, this is the 165 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: very reason why I wrote this book. I tried for 166 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 2: years to tell this story as it unfolded to me, 167 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: stories from the family that has been shared with me, 168 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 2: information that I got from other places, discoveries that we 169 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 2: made over the years, and I tried to tell this 170 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: to producers before this. You know, I pretty much gave 171 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 2: up pretty much all of the information to a producer 172 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: out in California one time, and I thought for sure 173 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: we were going to do something with it. It kind 174 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: of never really did something, never really took off, and 175 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: I wound up eventually writing a book, which I wouldn't 176 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 2: I'm not a writer, but with the help of Michael Lynch, 177 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 2: who is the writer in California who helped me and 178 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 2: we together wrote the book. You know, I found this 179 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 2: an outlet for me to get out all of this 180 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: information that was inside of me that I knew that 181 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 2: I had collected, and to share with the public. This 182 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 2: has always been my goal, is to share with the 183 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 2: public the truth behind what actually happened. And when I'm 184 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 2: promising when people read it, they're going to be blown 185 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: away by what we discovered. I know I was. 186 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: I want to talk about some things that I know 187 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: for sure have been done and you just said it, 188 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: but you said it kind of went on. I want 189 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: everybody to understand. Years ago, there was a photograph of 190 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: Jesse James and they had to go back and authenticated 191 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: and show that it was him and use facial recognition. 192 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: All of that. 193 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: You had that done not once, not twice, It's been 194 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: done five times by five different people. 195 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: Some people might say, well, you know, the family hired 196 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 2: these people and they paid them. But none of the 197 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: five companies that analyze this photograph was ever hired by 198 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 2: the family, by myself or anybody else. And like I 199 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 2: said in the show that we did in twenty fifteen, 200 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 2: which was called Alcatrassearch for the Truth, the US Marshals 201 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 2: are the ones who hired the two people to examine 202 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: the photograph exactly. 203 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: And Art Roderick is not a joke. He is the 204 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: cream of the crop. He is exactly who he purports 205 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: himself to be. His background and reputation is stellar. So 206 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: he's not going to send that photograph to some hack. 207 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: So when he tells you the photograph comes back from 208 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: his person, and this person says, that's John England. 209 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: Individual that they used to look at it. His name 210 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 2: is Michael Street. 211 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. 212 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 2: He is a very well known cop out of I 213 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: believe he's out of Michigan and he has solved a 214 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 2: lot of cases. 215 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm a huge fan that. 216 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 2: He used this software in order to trick down missing 217 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 2: people to solve cold cases. And this software is even 218 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 2: currently being used at the US Marshall's school. This is 219 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 2: for how they teach the marshals this particular software. So, 220 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: I mean, it's not a joke. It's not something that 221 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 2: someone just kind of came off and said, Hey, I 222 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 2: developed this new software and we're going to use it 223 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 2: analyze as photographs. I mean, Art knew who to use, 224 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: and like I said, we never suggested who. I didn't 225 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: even know anyone that could do this kind of stuff. 226 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Michael Street is top of the game, no doubt 227 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: about it. 228 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: I will agree with that, and I've I've spoken to 229 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 2: Michael several times afterwards, even when they photograph kind of 230 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: came into question by another Marshal and I called Michael 231 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 2: and I said, you know, you know they told him 232 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 2: what was going on, and he told me, he said, 233 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 2: I stand by what I said. He said. He told 234 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: Art he said, round up the posse that is John England. 235 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 2: So you know, there was no powerful words I ever 236 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 2: heard than that. 237 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about family loyalty and just how far 238 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: you would go, sir to prove what you just said. 239 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: You got in a raft and you tried to go 240 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: across to Angel Island, did you not? 241 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 2: Well, you know, so let's back up on that story. 242 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 2: So you know, the story has always always been told, 243 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: and anyone who tried to recreate the story, especially like 244 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: from the Clint Eastwood movie, it's all then about going 245 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 2: into Angel Island. But that was not how they got 246 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: off the island. And actually it's not how Josh Gates 247 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: and myself re enacted the escape ourselves from a raft. 248 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 2: The actual path that they took was and I can 249 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: share this with you. I don't mind sharing it. This 250 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 2: pretty much kind of common knowledge. Now. When they got 251 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: down to the water, they took the raft, all the 252 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 2: three men, John and Clarence and Frank Morris, and they 253 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 2: hugged the side of the island. They went all the 254 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: way up under the docks where the boats were at. 255 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 2: They connected to one of the prison boats with a rope. 256 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: I actually wasn't a rope, it was an extension cord, 257 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty five foot extension cord, and they 258 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: hitched the ride when that boat. When that prison boat 259 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 2: left going to near the marina greens where the prison 260 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 2: boats would go and let staff off and would pick 261 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 2: prisoners up. If they were bringing anybody at the time 262 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 2: but night, which they were not. But they hit the 263 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 2: ride and when they got about halfway across the bay, 264 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 2: they released the line, and the tide going out took 265 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 2: them to a waiting boat that was waiting in the 266 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 2: middle of that bay, in between Alcatraz and Marina Green, 267 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 2: and from there they boarded that boat, and from that boat, 268 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: it took them to an airplane that was waiting for 269 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 2: them just south of San Francisco, and from there they 270 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 2: went into Mexico, and eventually from Mexico they went into Brazil. 271 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 2: And in this book, we're not going to just say 272 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: this and say, well you have no proof of that. 273 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: We're going to give you some evidence that had occurred. 274 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: I'm a pre order mine today. But there's so many 275 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: things we got to unpack real quick, because as you're talking, 276 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: you know, my mind is just clicking. So the first 277 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: thing is, again, you got on a raft with Josh 278 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: Gates and you got in that water with that water 279 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: hitting you and it's cold and it's rough, and you 280 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: showed everybody you know, is it possible? Is this something 281 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: that could be done? And then the other thing that 282 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: I want to talk about because you mentioned it. There 283 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 1: was a police officer that reported seeing a boat sitting 284 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: out there like it was waiting on something, and they 285 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: ignored him. They even made fun of him. 286 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 2: When we were doing the show with Josh Gates. When 287 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 2: we were setting up for that scene, we were in 288 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: a little small harbor just right out from the island. 289 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 2: I mean, you could see the island, it looks so close. 290 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: But the waves that they were just incredibly high. I 291 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: have never seen the bait that high in my life. 292 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 2: The tourist boats that these big, huge boats that take 293 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 2: two people on a tour around the Alcuatrass, they would 294 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 2: come completely out of the water whenever they would hit 295 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 2: a wave. And I was in my mind, I'm going, Okay, 296 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 2: there is no way in hell they're going to let 297 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 2: us do this. We had two boats, we even had 298 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 2: a rescue swimmer that had to go with us, and 299 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 2: we went across the bay and we parked in front 300 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 2: of Alcatraz to set the scene up. And I'm just like, 301 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 2: in my mind, I'm going there's no way, there's no 302 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 2: way they're gonna let us do this. You know. Josh, 303 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: he said he's an adventest. He goes, oh no, we're 304 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: doing this, and I was like, Okay, you're doing it. 305 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 2: I'm doing it. And so we jumped in the raft 306 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 2: and we put Stewart who was the FBI, the former 307 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 2: retired FBI agent who was in the show with us. 308 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 2: We put him in the back playing Moores. I was 309 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 2: playing John and Uh and Josh was playing Clarence. And 310 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 2: we went across that bay. Oh my gosh, it was 311 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 2: the roughest. I really thought we're going to die. 312 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: You lost Josh at one point, didn't you. 313 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: We did a wave completely washed him out of the boat. 314 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: I grabbed him because I'm like, I don't want the 315 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 2: start of the show to die, and so I pulled 316 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 2: him back in. And when we get across, you know, 317 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 2: I looked at Josh and I said, just think about this. Now. 318 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 2: It's at night when they're doing it, and it's very calm. 319 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 2: It's nothing like what we did, a little foggy, and 320 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 2: I'm not going if we can do what we just 321 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 2: did and the conditions, there's no way that you cannot 322 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 2: make me believe that they were not able to complete 323 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:46,239 Speaker 2: what they did in a very calm setting water that 324 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: they went across. Then, but you know, with all that 325 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 2: let's go back into like this boat. A lot of 326 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 2: people have said, oh, you know, there's no proof that 327 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 2: this boat it was actually out there, but there was. 328 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 2: This is what is so amazing to me is that 329 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 2: when we in this book, in our book, we're going 330 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: to share with you. I had a personal interview with 331 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: the cop who actually saw this boat, and we've spoken 332 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 2: to his daughter. He tells the story. You know, I 333 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 2: don't want to share everything because, like I said, I 334 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: want some of it to be you know, in this book. 335 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 2: It's kind of like, you know, when I say these 336 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 2: things like this, people go, I don't understand what you're saying, 337 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 2: and how does this connect to it? And it's the 338 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: reason why in the book we take it in a 339 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: chronological sequence so that it goes, Okay, now I understand 340 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: what you're saying. But this San Francisco police officer who 341 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 2: had been working you know, he was new on the forest, 342 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: he had a stellar reputation, eventually becomes an investigator, retires 343 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,239 Speaker 2: with the San Francisco Police Department. I mean, this is 344 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 2: not like just your average everyday person that witnesses seeing 345 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 2: that boat that night. He happens to be out at 346 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 2: Marina Green. He had been working second shift. He went 347 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 2: out there, he said many times, to have a cigarette 348 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 2: to kind of calm down, wind down before he went 349 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 2: home and went to bed. Later, we find from his 350 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 2: daughter that that's probably not the only reason he was 351 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: out there. He was out there visiting his girlfriend, who 352 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 2: actually becomes his wife later on. And I'll tell the story, 353 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 2: you know. He he said, I was out there and 354 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: I was having a smoke. Same story he told to 355 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 2: the San Francisco newspaper at the time. He said, I 356 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 2: was out there and I was having a smoke. It was, 357 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 2: you know, a little after eleven, and he said, I 358 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 2: saw this. I looked out and I said, in between 359 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 2: him and Alcatraz, it looks like he's almost you could 360 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 2: touch it, you know. He said, there was this nice, 361 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 2: pristine fishing boat just kind of setting there. Now, what's 362 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: so interesting about that is that he could tell what 363 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 2: type of boat it was. It was a fishing boat. 364 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 2: He had said that it looked like it had been 365 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 2: freshly painted. And he said that it was just kind 366 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,959 Speaker 2: of there sitting there. It didn't have the engines running. 367 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 2: He said, I noticed it was kind of strange. It 368 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 2: didn't have the fishing poles that you have on the 369 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 2: side out and he said that the lights were kind 370 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 2: of going on and off like they were having you know, 371 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 2: electrical problems, and he sat there, he said, he thought 372 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: it was kind of strange. It flashed on and off 373 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 2: several times for quite a little a little while, and 374 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, this big, huge spotlight like 375 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 2: someone holding a flashlight came on and shined across the 376 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 2: water out like out toward Alcatraz. Was on just for 377 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 2: a few minutes, and then it went off, and then 378 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, the lights came on the boat. 379 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 2: The boat started up, and it started heading out toward 380 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 2: the Golden Gate Bridge, and he said when it finally 381 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 2: got to around the bridge, he kind of lost sight 382 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 2: of it. That he don't know if it went left 383 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,239 Speaker 2: or right. We went to north of south, you know. 384 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 2: But he really never thought anything about it until the 385 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: next morning when he got up and he heard the 386 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 2: story that was being reported about this escape. He went, oh, 387 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 2: my gosh, I wonder if this had something to do 388 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: with it. So he contacts his supervisor, and his supervisor says, yeah, 389 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 2: we need to report this, and they contact the FBI. Well, 390 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 2: you would have thought, okay, this, This is going to 391 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: be something big. The FBI is going to move with this. 392 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 2: You know. Well, they actually start accusing him of and 393 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 2: these are some of the statements he told me. They 394 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: were saying to him like, well, why didn't you swim 395 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 2: out there and stop it if you knew that was 396 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 2: what was going on? And he was like, well, one, 397 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 2: I didn't know that was what was happening. You know, 398 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: no one knew an escape was occurring. But the fact 399 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 2: that they started then saying well, what you saw, you 400 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 2: didn't really see it. They started making fun of him. 401 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 2: They actually started accusing him as being a part of it. 402 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 2: And then they started making fun of it to the 403 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 2: point where even his coworkers started putting up into his locker. 404 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 2: He would open his locker up and there'd be a 405 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: picture of a boat with us a note written below 406 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 2: it is this a boat that you saw? And he 407 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: eventually just quit talking about it, but he did do 408 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 2: a story with the local newspaper. He said he wanted 409 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: it to be documented because if you go into the 410 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 2: FBI volume files that I have and the public can 411 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 2: get a hold of, you will never find his interview 412 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 2: that they ever recorded it in the FBI files of 413 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 2: all the interviews that you can find that they've done 414 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 2: with hundreds of people from the public, people who said, oh, 415 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: I saw John England, he was a bell hop in 416 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 2: a hotel in New York, or some lady claiming my 417 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 2: pie was stolen off of my windowsill, and I believe 418 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: it was one of them. They interviewed every single one 419 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: of these people had documented it. But you will not 420 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 2: find this guy's documentation at all in the FBI files. 421 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 2: It is truly amazing, like, why would you not take 422 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,919 Speaker 2: someone that credible and at least document it. 423 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: And anybody that's ever read an extensive FBI file, the 424 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: notes are their money tree. They take notes about every 425 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 1: engagement they have with every single person, and so it 426 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: is remarkable that that is not in there. 427 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: Oh well, it's not only that that's not in there. 428 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: There are other items that during our investigation that we did, 429 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 2: there are things that they excluded from the FBI file, 430 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 2: and there are things that they included that will prove 431 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,400 Speaker 2: what I'm saying, and we bring it out one by 432 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 2: one in a series of events that people can say, 433 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 2: I understand what you're saying. I will say this too. 434 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 2: There is a bigger story than Alcatraz in this book. Now, 435 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 2: I'm not going to come out and I'm not going 436 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,120 Speaker 2: to say, hey, this is related and this happened because 437 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 2: of this. I told I will tell the story just 438 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,239 Speaker 2: like I discovered it and all. Let people make up 439 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: there on mind. But there's a bigger story than just 440 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 2: the Alcatraz story. Here. 441 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: You find the photograph in twenty fifteen, you're convinced at 442 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 1: your uncles. Now you have proof, so you know the 443 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: picture was taken in Brazil, and honey, you go to Brazil. 444 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 2: We do. Now. That was one of the things that 445 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 2: I will have to say I owe to Josh Gates 446 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 2: Expedition Unknown. You know, I was very reluctant to do 447 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 2: this show because you know, the show is really about 448 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: Josh Gates, and I understand that. But anytime I have 449 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 2: the opportunity to tell this story and to explore places 450 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 2: that like Brazil, I never would have been able to 451 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 2: explore it on my own, not the way that we 452 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 2: did with the show, I'm going to take advantage of it. 453 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: And so when I shared with Josh Gates the location 454 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: that I discovered where I believe that Fred Breezy took 455 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 2: these photographs at their house in Brazil, their farm in Brazil, 456 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 2: and I showed it to Josh and he was like, 457 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, how did you find this? And I 458 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 2: was like, you're never going to believe it. I found 459 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 2: it with Google Maps, and you know, because I had 460 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: never been to Brazil. And so we went to Brazil 461 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 2: and we went to these locations, every location that Fred 462 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 2: Breezy took, every one of the photographs, we were actually 463 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: able to find every one of them, including the house, 464 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 2: including the location where they took that photograph that shows 465 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: John and angling John England and Clarence beside the ant Hill. 466 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 2: And we actually even found the town that they originally 467 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 2: showed up in. And then we actually found people that 468 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 2: remembered three Americans coming to this town in the early 469 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 2: seventies actually like late sixties, early seventies. They told us 470 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 2: about this hot out. I would say hot out. It's 471 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 2: really kind of like a I don't know how it 472 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 2: was explained it. It's a cliff overhanging cliff that's on 473 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 2: top of this mountain that's very rugged, oh, very very 474 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 2: hard to get up. When we went up there looking 475 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 2: for items in the ground, and this was part of 476 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 2: the show, and if you watch the expedition Unknown, You'll 477 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 2: see what I'm talking about. But so we trek up 478 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 2: this mountain, which is very strenuous. I'm an athlete at heart, 479 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 2: and it wore me out growing up. But we get 480 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 2: up on top of this mountain and we start searching 481 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 2: for items around this campsite there was an actual campsite 482 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 2: up there and or this rugged part of the mountains. 483 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: We start finding items that should not have been there. 484 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 2: We found a lighter that we couldn't prove that it 485 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 2: was an American lighter, but you know, Clarence was a smoker. 486 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 2: We found a three eighty shell that was made in 487 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: the US. Was not a Brazilian made three eighty ye. 488 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: Round, okay, it was an American ammunition. 489 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 2: It was an American ammunition. We found a very old 490 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 2: Brazilian coin. And then the most amazing thing that I 491 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 2: found right at the very end was we found a 492 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty one US sweet Penny. And I'm like, going 493 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 2: this blue Joshua because he's like and I'm screaming up 494 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 2: and down because it was not actually like laying on 495 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 2: the ground, it was actually under the ground several inches down. 496 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: Pouher're like, what is a US penny doing on top 497 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: of this mountain in the middle of nowhere in a 498 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 2: town that is so small. When we were there in 499 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, so you can imagine what it looked 500 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 2: like in say nineteen sixty eight or nineteen sixty nine. 501 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 2: I mean, it was like totally just nothing there. I mean, 502 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 2: why would Americans be in this area on top of 503 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: this mountain in nineteen sixty. 504 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: And this was a hideout to me because they could 505 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: see if anybody were trying to come at them, come 506 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: anywhere near them, they would know what my away. So 507 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: it's a brilliant place to be. But even the locals, 508 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: it's not like they hiked there for the view. It 509 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: wasn't like a landmark, so there's really no reason for 510 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: anybody to be there. 511 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 2: No, we found tools where someone would like clear out spots. 512 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,719 Speaker 2: There were rocks, big huge rocks that were around where 513 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 2: you would have built a fire. This is actually where 514 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 2: we found the US penny was on the other side 515 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 2: of one of these stones. You can imagine someone setting 516 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 2: on these stones or warming their hands and corn fall 517 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 2: out of your pocket onto the ground. And this is 518 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 2: the reason I searched that area. I was like you know, 519 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,719 Speaker 2: what is very possible and what did I find? But 520 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 2: not only did we find that we found, there were 521 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 2: other items that we located or had hits, some that 522 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 2: we never dug up because it got dark, we had 523 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: to leave and we had to wrap it up. And 524 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my gosh, we're leaving so much here 525 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: that is undiscovered, that is still up there today. Who 526 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 2: knows what it is. You know, there might actually be 527 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 2: something that has their name on it. I have no 528 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 2: clue what's there, but I know that there are other 529 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 2: items still there. 530 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: You and I talked about I worked a case from 531 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: nineteen forty six, and when we excavated that land, I 532 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: found a nickel from nineteen forty six. And it is 533 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: just this feeling like you know in your heart it's connected. 534 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: How could it not be connected? And you know, I 535 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: come from a career that doesn't really subscribe to coincidences, 536 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: and so to me, you find a week penny up there, 537 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: the date makes sense, the location does not make sense 538 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: unless they were there. 539 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 2: You're exactly right. I mean, you know a lot of 540 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 2: the stuff that people will challenge me on. They will say, well, 541 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 2: everything that you have is circumstantial evidence, and I will 542 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 2: admit to that. But I have always and I have challenged. 543 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 2: I have challenged both marshals that I'm friends with, that 544 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 2: have worked with, even the former FBI person that I've 545 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 2: worked with. I've challenged them to show me any circumstantial 546 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 2: evidence that you have that will back up your theory 547 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: that they drown. Just anything. Just show it to me, 548 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 2: and I'll bring my circumstential evidence, and let's see who 549 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 2: stacks up higher. 550 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: It's funny you said that, because when I was talking 551 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: to Michael Eslinger and I said to him the twelve 552 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: year old me, when you hear the FBI say there's 553 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: no evidence they made it, My thing is there's no 554 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: evidence they didn't because where you found that raft and 555 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 1: where you found that ore, how is it possible those 556 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: two items would have gone to the same place. And 557 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: if they're just floating free in this current, that's impossible 558 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: to me to believe that you've got the You know, 559 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: you've got people like Whitey Bulger and you know, Robert 560 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: Schablin and the Birdman of Alcatraz, all these people that 561 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: are telling you information they knew, the plan they knew, 562 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 1: and then it turns out that's the truth. Robert Shablin 563 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: told me myself that the Birdman was teaching them Spanish 564 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: because their plan was to go to South America. Okay, 565 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: how would he know that? He ate dinner with them 566 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,439 Speaker 1: every night. That's how we knew it. He's the one 567 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: that told me that he studied the tide tables to 568 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: tell them on what side of the island to launch 569 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: and how to do it. 570 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to introduce you to someone in this 571 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 2: book that probably very few people have ever even heard of, 572 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 2: a guard at Alcatraz that once again their story, his 573 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 2: story was told to the FBI and it was never documented, 574 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 2: but their story is going to prove what we are 575 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 2: saying about what happened with the wrath and how it 576 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: got to where it was discovered at it was discovered. 577 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,320 Speaker 2: They don't want to admit it, but like I said, 578 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 2: you and we not only do we have this individual 579 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 2: and a documented top form, but we also have the 580 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 2: audio recording that he did when he gave this interview. 581 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 2: It's totally amazing. But we included in this uh in 582 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 2: this book that from a from a text standpoint, not 583 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 2: the audio of course, but when you read it, you're 584 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 2: going to go, oh my gosh, I just can't believe 585 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 2: all of this was out there, and uh, you know, 586 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 2: I didn't know it, but I understand from the public standpoint, 587 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 2: most people most of their knowledge is either around the 588 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 2: movie that Clean Eastwood made, which I have to say this. 589 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 2: You know, I'm a fan of that. I've watched it 590 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 2: many times. It is fiction. It is not what happened. 591 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 2: I can prove to you that it was not what 592 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 2: actually happened, but it was a great story, so I 593 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,920 Speaker 2: do give kudos to him. The movie has always been 594 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 2: one of my favorite, but it is definitely far from 595 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 2: what actually happened. You know, most people they either know 596 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 2: that story or they know what's told to them by 597 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,240 Speaker 2: the park rangers when they go to visit. I've battled 598 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 2: with them when it comes to having debates. They don't like. 599 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,439 Speaker 2: They don't really like me to debate them because I've 600 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 2: got proof about you know what I'm talking about. They don't. 601 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I read Michael Eslinger's book and it 602 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 1: is so comprehensive, and he's got the photographs in the 603 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: paperwork and he's outlined it. I think so beautifully that 604 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: if you take all of that information, combine it with 605 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: your information. It would certainly lead to somebody to say, hey, y'all, 606 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: there might be some more information somewhere those pieces of 607 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 1: that puzzle you're talking about, because I mean, Michael does 608 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,839 Speaker 1: a stellar job. But then again, I sit with you 609 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 1: and I'm like, wait a minute, I want my hands 610 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: on that lighter so bad if you would talk a 611 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: little bit about your letter writing back and forth with 612 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: Whitey Bulger. 613 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,760 Speaker 2: My real passion for this story occurred in twenty twelve. 614 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 2: It was actually maybe a little bit before twenty twelve, 615 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 2: but in twenty twelve, I went with my mom and 616 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 2: my one of my aunts the only two actually, my 617 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 2: mom and her sister are the only two people left 618 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 2: alive in the England family that we know of. I 619 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 2: went with them out to Alcatraz for the fiftieth anniversary. 620 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 2: While we were out there doing the interviews that they 621 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 2: had set up for us, this is when Michael Esslinger 622 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 2: walked up at that time, walked up to my mom 623 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 2: and said, Hey, I have a letter that I was 624 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 2: asked to deliver to you, and she was like okay. 625 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,839 Speaker 2: She just kind of took it really look at it. 626 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 2: Later on that that afternoon, when we got back to 627 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,360 Speaker 2: the hotel. We looked at it and who is Whitey Bulger. Well, 628 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 2: none of us really kind of knew who he was 629 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 2: at the time. I mean we kind of heard a 630 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 2: little bit, but not really. Why is he writing you? Well, 631 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 2: come to find out, Michael was writing a book with him, 632 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,839 Speaker 2: and he had heard that we were coming out to Alcatraz. 633 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 2: He had a very very fond memory and relationship. He 634 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 2: knew John and Clarence and Frank Morris very well. They 635 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,439 Speaker 2: were very very good friends, and he wanted to write 636 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 2: my mom to tell her, you know, hey, I served 637 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 2: time with your brothers. And so she started writing him, 638 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 2: and they kind of, you know, exchanged several letters back 639 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 2: and forth with each other. He would he would comment on, 640 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 2: you know, how how he knew John and Clarence and 641 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 2: how great men they were. And when I started to 642 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 2: really kind of get involved and I wanted to dig 643 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 2: into the history as I was pulling up information because 644 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 2: of like I said this twenty twelve is when that 645 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 2: person said something about my two uncles at that television 646 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 2: interview that we were doing, and it really got to me. 647 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,279 Speaker 2: This is, like I told you, if I could have 648 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 2: climbed over the marshall and got to the individual, I 649 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 2: probably would have, but it made me so mad because 650 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 2: I was like, there's no way in hell that this 651 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 2: story is the way you're telling it. You will not 652 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 2: make me believe that my two uncles or just a 653 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 2: bunch of dumb farm country hicks that had no part 654 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 2: into the story. And so as I started digging into 655 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 2: the information, like I said, it became my life story. 656 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 2: Then I was driven to prove that this individual was 657 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,839 Speaker 2: not corrected by my uncles. She did not know them. 658 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 2: And so as I started digging through stuff, I said, 659 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 2: you know, I ought to write to Tawhyde, And so 660 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 2: I asked my mom to ask him to be okay 661 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 2: if I wrote him, and he responded, oh, absolutely, you know, 662 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 2: so I wrote him a nice letter to begin with, 663 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 2: to start off with. And over the course of five 664 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 2: years and seventeen letters, you know, he eventually told me 665 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 2: don't call him James anymore. His friends call him Jim. 666 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 2: And he just we shared. He shared with thinks. He 667 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,399 Speaker 2: shared things with me that he told me he had 668 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:45,760 Speaker 2: never shared before with anyone, things about John and Clarence 669 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 2: and Frank Morris, things that he did that very few 670 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 2: people knew he did. In the in the escape process. 671 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 2: There is a lot that he shared with me. Some 672 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 2: I will keep and probably never divulge. But I will 673 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 2: say this about White E. Bulger. He was a very 674 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 2: laurel individual. Now he might have been a criminal. I 675 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 2: won't say he wasn't you know, he didn't do I 676 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 2: won't say he didn't do bad things. He did. But 677 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 2: there's one thing that he didn't do. He didn't lie. 678 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 2: He didn't believe in lying. He didn't believe in cheating 679 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,240 Speaker 2: or cheating someone. And he didn't believe or his worst 680 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 2: enemy was someone who snitched. Oh my gosh, if he 681 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 2: ever thought that you snitched on him, or he found 682 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 2: out that you know, that someone was accusing him of 683 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 2: the siness, that was like the lowest of blows. I 684 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 2: guess with criminals, especially from his. 685 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 1: Time of Rind, Robert Treblind told me the only thing 686 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: lower than a cop was a snitch. And that's the 687 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,479 Speaker 1: reason the inmate that didn't make it out that night 688 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: didn't go with him when he told his version to 689 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: the FBI. If he had really told their plan and 690 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,319 Speaker 1: really gave them a roadmap to where they escaped to 691 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: and all of that, he wouldn't have lived ten minutes. 692 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,240 Speaker 2: I asked White of that very question, and he said 693 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 2: he would never have walked off the yard. He said, 694 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 2: he Wes told exactly what we told him to say. 695 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 2: You know, I'll leave it at that, but I will 696 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,760 Speaker 2: say this now, there was another reason why Wes didn't 697 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 2: go with them White. He told me why. I will 698 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 2: have to say, if I had been in Wes's shoes, 699 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 2: I would not have gone either. Would I would have 700 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 2: made up the same excuse that he made up about 701 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 2: not being able to get out of his cell, because 702 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 2: you know, I don't think Wes would have ever made 703 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:56,479 Speaker 2: it across the bay. To put it point blank, I'll 704 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,800 Speaker 2: just leave it at that. There. You know, there was 705 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 2: a lot of things that about Wes that people don't 706 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 2: know about that. We do cover this in the book. 707 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,399 Speaker 1: Though, So well, I just appreciate you being with us 708 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,320 Speaker 1: and sharing even just a little bit of your family history. 709 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: And you know, you're right, Josh Gates did such a 710 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: phenomenal job. But when I watched that show, when I 711 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: watched you get in that water, know when there's eleven 712 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: different sharks underneath you, and just how rough that water 713 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: was like. Even the people on your rescue boat were 714 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 1: getting tossed around like rag dolls. So you know, you 715 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 1: did put your life on the line to prove that 716 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,919 Speaker 1: they could do it. But I have to tell people 717 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: one of the funniest things you said when I met 718 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,000 Speaker 1: with you, you said that an FBI agent said, well, 719 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 1: I'm just telling you that water was too rough and 720 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 1: they couldn't have made it. And you said, sir, I 721 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,719 Speaker 1: signed up for the Alcatraz swam. I swam that, and 722 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: they were in a boat and there was a man 723 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: next to me with no eggs and one arm that 724 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:06,319 Speaker 1: made it. I thought, well, if you can't accept that 725 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: is that they at least stood a chance because that athlete. 726 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: Let me tell you something, any pair athlete, if you 727 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 1: have one arm and you swim that and can make it, 728 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: then I do believe that gives credence to they could 729 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,919 Speaker 1: have possibly made it starting with a raft. 730 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:33,399 Speaker 2: I say this every single year around the anniversary. There 731 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 2: are two thousand reasons why if they had needed to swim, 732 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 2: they could have. And that's the individuals that swim the 733 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 2: Escape from Alcatraz Triathlon. I did it myself. I jumped 734 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 2: in the water right beside the island along with you know, 735 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,920 Speaker 2: two thousand other people that do it every single year, 736 00:45:55,560 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 2: and we swam across it, you know, some people or 737 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,279 Speaker 2: a professional, some people like myself that was my very 738 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 2: first time. Some people that went in the water with me. 739 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 2: There was a blind individual so to me at you know, 740 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:15,359 Speaker 2: he's swimming it at night. Sure, but it's it just 741 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,360 Speaker 2: goes to show you that it's really silly to believe 742 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 2: that these three men died in that in that bay, 743 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,600 Speaker 2: even if they went their direction that everybody said that 744 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 2: they went, which they didn't, and their equipment failed. There 745 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 2: is no way that as good of a swimmer as 746 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 2: John and Clarence was. Now, I don't know about Frank Morris, 747 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 2: but I know my uncles. There are stories that were 748 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,839 Speaker 2: going to include on this book that were proved that 749 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,439 Speaker 2: they were excellent swimmers. They could have swimm the thing 750 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,279 Speaker 2: if they had wanted to, but they didn't have to. 751 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 2: But they could have. 752 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,359 Speaker 1: As children, they would hitch rides using robes, wouldn't they. 753 00:46:54,520 --> 00:47:00,439 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, both both Fred Breezy uh and John 754 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,360 Speaker 2: and Clarence and Alfred they did this as games as kids, 755 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 2: not only as kids, even up until when they were 756 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 2: in their teenage years. They would go down to local 757 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 2: boat dogs that were leading out the Alifi River that 758 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,439 Speaker 2: leads out into the Tampa Bay, and they would hide 759 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 2: up under dogs and they would take a rope and 760 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 2: they were tied around the rudder of a boat, and 761 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 2: then they would have like a piece of board that 762 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,319 Speaker 2: they would lay on, and when the boat would take 763 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,439 Speaker 2: off heading out into the bay to either fish or whatever, 764 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,560 Speaker 2: they would ski behind it and up until the point 765 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,120 Speaker 2: that whoever was pulling them saw them and then either 766 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,719 Speaker 2: stopped and made them get off or whatever. But I mean, 767 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:47,520 Speaker 2: they did this as kids, and so to go, well 768 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:52,320 Speaker 2: could they have done this, you know, this very same feat, 769 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:58,280 Speaker 2: Well it wasn't. It wasn't Fred Breezy who told this story. 770 00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:00,880 Speaker 2: I mean he he tells it to to the family, 771 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:03,799 Speaker 2: but John England is the one who told him how 772 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,000 Speaker 2: they did this. John England is the one who told 773 00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 2: Fred Breezy, this is how we got off of the island. 774 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:17,640 Speaker 2: We found inmates and Alcatraz that were interviewed right after 775 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,000 Speaker 2: the escape. That of course, no one sees these documents 776 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,960 Speaker 2: until mid two thousands, so Fred Breeze didn't have the 777 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:30,400 Speaker 2: opportunity to see this when he tells the story. But 778 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,319 Speaker 2: there were inmates that said, yeah, John England had told 779 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,640 Speaker 2: him once that there was a possibility that they might 780 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:38,480 Speaker 2: go down to the boat docks and use one of 781 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,040 Speaker 2: the boats to get off the island. This is documented 782 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:41,760 Speaker 2: in the FBI. 783 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: But you know, good and well, that's the last thing 784 00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,040 Speaker 1: any government official wants to admit that not only did 785 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,760 Speaker 1: they escape, we gave him a freaking ride. 786 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 2: Exactly right. The name of the book is Alcatraz The 787 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,239 Speaker 2: Last Escape. Now, I know people are going to say, okay, well, 788 00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,080 Speaker 2: the Last Escape is referred to Alcatraz, but it's not. 789 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,719 Speaker 2: It's a play on words. It's not about Alcatraz. That 790 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,279 Speaker 2: Alcatraz was not their last escape, believe it or not. 791 00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:17,799 Speaker 2: So Alcatraz was one of many escapes that they did, 792 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:20,800 Speaker 2: but it was definitely not their. 793 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,680 Speaker 1: Last one, and that is how their sister knew who 794 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:26,560 Speaker 1: it was before she got to a TV. 795 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:32,359 Speaker 2: You're exactly right. But there is something that I uncovered 796 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:38,279 Speaker 2: that will prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that some of 797 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,280 Speaker 2: this was covered up by the prison officials. I'm assuming 798 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,000 Speaker 2: with the help of the FBI. I don't know if 799 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:45,880 Speaker 2: they could have done it on their own, but I 800 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 2: can show you hard proof evidence that some of the 801 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,760 Speaker 2: things that they claimed happened never happened. 802 00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,359 Speaker 1: Ken Widner, I cannot thank you enough for sharing your 803 00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,359 Speaker 1: day with us. This has just been and I hate 804 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,160 Speaker 1: to say it's been fun, but this has just been 805 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:02,759 Speaker 1: fun to me. 806 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,040 Speaker 2: Oh, I've got a lot more to say, but yes, 807 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,399 Speaker 2: I've enjoyed it a lot. When the book comes out, 808 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,680 Speaker 2: I will answer any question that you have. I will. 809 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,560 Speaker 2: I will spill my guts. You might want to make 810 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,759 Speaker 2: sure you have more than an hour or because understood 811 00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,440 Speaker 2: I can talk for a long time on this. 812 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,400 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to talk to you soon about that lighter. 813 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:28,440 Speaker 1: I got some ideas, and again, thank you so much. 814 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: And y'all, I'm going to end Zone seven the way 815 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,399 Speaker 1: that I always do with a quote when everything goes 816 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:40,880 Speaker 1: to hell, the people who stand by you without flinching, 817 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:48,000 Speaker 1: they're your family. Jim Butcher, I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this 818 00:50:48,160 --> 00:51:00,799 Speaker 1: is on seven Time.