1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Way back when when 2 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: I was in high school, you had these elective classes 3 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: that you could take, primarily related to humanities, and for me, 4 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: there was a class that really caught my attention. First off, 5 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: the thing that was so glaring about it was the 6 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: fact that the name was odd. I'd never heard of 7 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: it before that. The name of the class was called fanontology, 8 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: and it sounds like something you'd study at a graduate 9 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: level of university. But when I began to understand what 10 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: that actually meant, that we would be studying the dead 11 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: and all things associated with death, I was intrigued, to 12 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: say the least. And it was in this class that 13 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: I first, all those years ago, first considered the word corner. Today, 14 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: we're going to have a discussion about the office of corner. 15 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: What does it mean, what's its origins, and what's the 16 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: status even today. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. 17 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: Let me tell you how ignorant I am, Dave. We'll 18 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: start off the conversation this way. Wow. When I first 19 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: heard the word corner or title corner, I thought, because 20 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: I knew enough to know that it had to do 21 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: with death. The office had something to do with death, obviously, 22 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: but I didn't understand the origin of the word. I 23 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: thought that it probably had something to do with corner 24 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: or like cornary artery or cornary vessels, you know, in 25 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: the you know, because and look at it stands to reason, 26 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: because the number one killer in America is coronary artery disease. 27 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: The line's share of people are not going to die 28 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: from a gunshot wound or a stabbing or some kind 29 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: of exotic disease. Most people are actually going to die 30 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: of something related to their heart, generally heart disease, all right, 31 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: And so kind of stands to reason. I don't know, 32 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: did you ever give the word consideration at all? 33 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: I did when Elvis Presley died. That was the first 34 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: time I ever actually really thought about coroners, medical examiners, 35 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: and doctors of death, those who make decisions around a 36 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: dead body and how they died, because the question was 37 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 2: what killed Elvis. And at the time, by the way, 38 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,399 Speaker 2: I have to tell you that the doctor that announced 39 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: how he died what caused his death, was not approved 40 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: for saying it. And actually what he said was not 41 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 2: an untruth because it's true for all of us. You 42 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 2: die when your heart stops beating. And yeah, that is 43 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: basically what they described in Elvis's death. And I thought then, 44 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: I thought, well, that's not a good answer. You know, 45 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: I need a better answer. Where's the corner? Where's the 46 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: medical examiner? Because back then Quincy did Jack Klugman television 47 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: show about them. The Medical Examiner was a hit television show. 48 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 2: And I'm thinking Elvis died because his heart stopped beating. Okay, great, 49 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: give me the real give me the Jews. You know 50 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: what else is there? And that was the first time 51 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 2: I actually really thought about the what a coroner slash 52 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 2: medical examiner. I say those together because I'm assuming that 53 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: they're not the same thing. 54 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: No, no, can we start with that. 55 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 2: What is the difference? 56 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: Yeah? First off, I got to go down rabbit hole 57 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: here with you. One of the biggest regrets in my life. 58 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: When I first got into the field, one of the 59 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: organizations I joined was, and it still exists today, is 60 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: an International Association of Corners and Medical Examiners. I'm no 61 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: longer a remember, but it's a it's a fascinating organization. 62 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: They've been around for a long time. They I think 63 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: they're they're based in Pennsylvania, which, by the way, is 64 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: a corner state, and we'll get into that in just 65 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,679 Speaker 1: a moment. But Dave, one of my biggest regrets was 66 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: was that the year, I think it was the year 67 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: that I joined, they were having their national meeting and 68 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: I can't remember where it was, but guess who the 69 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: headline speaker was, Jack Klugman, the guy that played the 70 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: guy you know from was. 71 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: Before he at the time and the guy you know, 72 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: and I guess he had his voice box taken out 73 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 2: or something. I don't know. 74 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I think, yeah he did. He was very raspy, 75 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: but uh, you know, he played he played Quincy, you know, 76 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: and of course he had played Oscar in the Odd 77 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: Couple and you know, and he was going to come 78 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: and speak, and I was thinking, Wow, compared to a 79 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: lot of the kind of dry science that you have 80 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: to listen to, wouldn't it have been cool to sit 81 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 1: there and listen to Jack Klugman about the you know, 82 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: about the filming of Quincy and what that was like 83 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: to be, you know, kind of inserted into that world. 84 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: Because listen, when I tell people what I did for 85 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: a living, I get two responses. One is older and 86 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,919 Speaker 1: one is more modern. They will say to me, oh, 87 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: just like Quincy and that's the older generation, right, and 88 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: which I'm like, well, yeah, I guess if that's your 89 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: point of reference. The one that I take exception to, though, 90 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 1: is they'll say, oh, yeah, just like Dexter, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, 91 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: Dexter is well, first off, he's a serial killer, thank 92 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: you very much. Yeah, and he dealt in bloodstain analysis. 93 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: But you know, they associate it's weird, you know, how 94 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: time goes by and things get jumbled up. And boy, 95 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: are we talking about time going by because that's something 96 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: that many people, I think don't truly realize. How ancient 97 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: and ancient is really a term that we can apply 98 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: to this office. How ancient the coroner's office is. Dave 99 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: goes back to essentially all the way back to eleven ninety. 100 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: Four, medieval England, that's what you can say. 101 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, medieval England. Yeah. 102 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: Until Joe and I were talking just give you an 103 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 2: a side. We were talking about different shows and topics 104 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 2: and things like that. And the show is Body Bags 105 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: and we deal with the death of individuals or groups 106 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: and how they died and getting into the science and 107 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 2: the things that you have to learn as you go 108 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: and in many cases, and the things you have learned 109 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: and how decisions are made when you announced to the 110 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: world how somebody passed and what have you, there's a 111 00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 2: whole lot there. There's a lot of meat on that, 112 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: and I don't mean that in a bad way, but 113 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: there's so much more in the world of crime reporting 114 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 2: and things like that. The idea of how forensics play 115 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: into these things is just beyond anything I can imagine, really, 116 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 2: And so when I look back on this, knowing we 117 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: were going to be talking and by the way, having 118 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: the passing of Cyril Wackt and Werner h you having 119 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: those two back to back, and we had been talking 120 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 2: about doing this coroner show, I thought, man, this is 121 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 2: a good piece of timing to figure out because I 122 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: don't know. And when I saw the thing about medieval 123 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: England and coroners and you know what, friends, bottom line, 124 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: it's been about money and power. The actual coroner is 125 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 2: about money because when somebody dies, the king got the spoils. Yeah, 126 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 2: It's like I looked at that and way, you gotta 127 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: be kidding. The term murder is even based on basically 128 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: what they called the tax that they would you give 129 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: to people when they found a dead body. You realize 130 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: back then, if you found a dead body, okay, you 131 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: find somebody dead in the street, it's your job to 132 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: go and round up a pose and figure out what 133 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: who killed him or what happened to him. And if 134 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: you can't do it, they're gonna find you. 135 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that comes from the article of Air, which 136 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: actually came out in eleven I think it was eleven 137 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: ninety four. And the phraseology that they use is you 138 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: were to send out the hue and cry, h the 139 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: hue and cry, and like so many other things, there's 140 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: there's an attachment, you know, or there's an association with 141 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: uh with taxation. And that's that's essentially what it came 142 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: down to when you think about what was going on 143 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: at that particular time in Great Britain. You had the 144 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: Norman Conquest that had occurred, which you know, the Normans 145 00:08:58,120 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: are French, is what it comes down to. 146 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: And real quick I saw that being mentioned, Joe. Yeah, 147 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 2: I went back and reread parts of the you know, 148 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: endo the history a little bit. I'm going Norman, who 149 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 2: who are you talking about? Norman? 150 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: Well, think Normandy and so and and Brittany and those 151 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: areas over in France that you know, when the Normans 152 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: took over, the Angel Saxon's did not appreciate it too much, 153 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: and so they had a habit of killing Normans. And 154 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: so Merdrum, which the word murder comes from, was essentially 155 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: there was a law that was established, you know, to 156 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: try to stop people from killing Normans. 157 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: Wow. 158 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: And you know it's from this line, you know that 159 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: we get this establishment of this very interesting office. And yeah, 160 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: it is all rooted in money. And let me ask 161 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: you this, Dave. Have you ever heard the old adage 162 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: that it is illegal to commit suicide? Have you ever 163 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: heard that term? I have? Yeah, Okay, that's actually rooted 164 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 1: in ancient law in Great Britain. And here's why. Yeah, 165 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: here's why, because in order to penalize somebody for something, 166 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: all right, it has to be codified, it has to 167 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: be written down, so to actually from a let's see, 168 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: how can I say this from an administrative standpoint, it 169 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: was going to be more painful for the citizenry if 170 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: they committed suicide than actually being involved in a murder. 171 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: You say, well, how do you punish somebody for suicide? 172 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: Let me tell you how if you committed suicide. And 173 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 1: there's actually even more ancient linkage for this, but if 174 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: you committed suicide, it was viewed they would frame it 175 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: in terms of the church. It's like an insult to God. 176 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: All right, you're introducing your will into the will of God. 177 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: All right. If it was a suicide, than everything, everything 178 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: that you possessed, guess who got it? King? The king 179 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 1: got it. And I can't prove this necessarily, but I 180 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: think that that's where this idea, the genesis of this 181 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: idea of a death tax actually comes from. You know, 182 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: where it's the idea that you're going to be you're 183 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: punished even in death relative to you know, your financial 184 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: responsibilities for taxation and all those sorts of things. So 185 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: they took this very seriously, and it came at a 186 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: particular confluence in history where this office actually kind of 187 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: sprung into existence. And there's been any number of people 188 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: over the years that have stated, well, the office actually 189 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: existed even prior to this founding date, that there was 190 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: something that they had they had structured in their mind, 191 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: and all of this kind of ties back to the 192 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: laws governing how normans were going to be treated, and 193 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: of course the I guess the Chief Norman, if you 194 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: put it this way, in the chief in the sense 195 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: that this individual is kind of of rooted in the 196 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: history of the development of the office at the corner, 197 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: is actually a king, a king that everyone will have 198 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: heard of, that everyone will be familiar with. And he 199 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: was a king of England. And guess what, this guy 200 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: that was the King of England probably visited England less 201 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: than five times during his entire reign. But yet he 202 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: said in motion what would become modern medical legal death investigation. 203 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,439 Speaker 1: I guess if you're in a profession, at some point 204 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: in tom you want to try to understand the history, 205 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: the origins of the profession that you've been involved in. 206 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: I've always been quite fascinated by the history of the 207 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: corner system, and secondary secondarily to that, the medical examiner system, 208 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: because they kind of one evolved out of the other. 209 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: I didn't even know there was a difference, Joe, Okay, Yeah, 210 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 2: so you know, outside of your world, corner, medical examiner, 211 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 2: I lump them all together. I mean, psychology, psychiatrist, you 212 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: know that kind of thing. Yeah, I don't know the difference, 213 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 2: and yet there is a big difference. I was looking 214 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: back at the corner thing. And you know, when you're 215 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 2: talking about I'm not kidding. I'm looking at Norman who. 216 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 2: And on top of that, I'm thinking back in the day, 217 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 2: if you found the body, you were responsible for everything 218 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: that happened afterwards. 219 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: And oh and you can you can, oh listen, there's 220 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: actually a story that's out there about the local corner 221 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: who you know. I got to I gotta tell you. 222 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: First off, the work corner is not actually the original term. 223 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: The original term is actually crowner. And yes, you heard 224 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: that right, crowner because the individual is hearing the pleas 225 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: of the crown, and that is these worlds judge, a 226 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: traveling judge. Yeah, and you know all us how long 227 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: it takes to travel. First off, you have to be 228 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: notified that someone is dead. You're on horseback in medieval 229 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: England and you're having to travel to go and verify this. 230 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: So when you think about these people that would say, 231 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: for instance, find a dead body, you're going to be 232 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: standing by with a decomposing body. And there's one story that. 233 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: They weren't allowed to move them either, were they They weren't. 234 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: If you died in the ground, you died right here 235 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: in front of my house. You had a heart attack 236 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: or whatever it No matter what, you're dead. And we 237 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 2: know now again there's no cell phones, there's no technology 238 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: out there to notify anybody. So no matter where this 239 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 2: guy is, he has to get the message. First of all, 240 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: there's a dead body in my yard. Second of all, 241 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 2: he has to make plans for the trip to come 242 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: to my plays and then do that. So you're talking days. 243 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: Days, if not weeks, because sometimes because the message has 244 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:12,479 Speaker 1: to be sent out to to these these you know, appointees, 245 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: and these appointees, here's the interesting thing. They're appointed by 246 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: the crown, right, and there's a specific, a specific reason 247 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: for that. And you know, you you have to kind 248 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: of understand the history of this and you know where 249 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: where does it originate from. 250 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: The history of the crime. You know, you sent me 251 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 2: a picture, Joe of you and Noah. Yeah, what is 252 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 2: that picture? 253 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: Well, the nerd in me I couldn't resist. Okay, We've 254 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: I've talked about it before. Please indulge me. We've we've 255 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: been to England several times, actually going back in September. 256 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: We're going back to speak at Crime con in UK 257 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: in September, and I'm looking forward to that certainly. 258 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 2: But i'me kind of spreading like it is something. 259 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: It's something, and so I'm looking forward to going over there. 260 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: But yeah, in one of our trips over I had 261 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: my bride took a picture of Noah No it was 262 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: probably he may have been thirteen, I guess. 263 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't look like a recent picture. I mean, 264 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 2: treated college in the military. 265 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, my hair is a little bit less gray. 266 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: But anyway, we're standing outside of Parliament there in Westminster, 267 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: and and behind us is the famous statue of Richard 268 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: the Lionhearted. It's King Richard the First and he's the 269 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: you know, he's like one of the original Norman kings, 270 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: you know, and he's really kind of the uniner. I 271 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: think that they try to make him out to be 272 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: this this grand hero. The statue itself has got a 273 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: fascinating history, you know. I think that the statue was 274 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: erected in like eighteen sixty and right after they erected 275 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: the thing, the tail fell off. And after they got 276 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: that reattached, World War II came along and it had 277 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: a during the Blitzkreek, it gotten missed by a matter 278 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: of yards by bomb that was dropped in the yard 279 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: of the Old Palace. They call it the Old Palace yard. 280 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: That's where the statute stands, and it's him on the 281 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: back of a horse. He's got a sword raised in 282 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: the air, this sort of thing, and he was known 283 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: as a crusader king, and he'd liked to make war. 284 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: But guess what war requires, Dave. It requires money. And 285 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: so one of the problems is is that there's always 286 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: been a linkage between corners and sheriffs, even to this day. 287 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: Did you know that in certain states, in certain locations, 288 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: the corner is the only person in that particular state 289 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: that has the authority to arrest the sheriff. 290 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 2: A quick aside this happened in Jasper, Alabama, where the 291 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: sheriff was called by a scammer, we have a warrant 292 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 2: for your arrest, and if you don't pay a certain 293 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 2: amount of money, we're going to show up and take 294 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 2: you into custody. And he said, well, go ahead and 295 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 2: bring the coroner with you, because that's the only verson 296 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 2: that can arrest me. 297 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: Yep. And that is the truth. And because both of 298 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: these positions are elected. If the sheriff is supplanet or arrested, 299 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 1: the chief deputy sheriff does not become the sheriff. It's 300 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: the corner for a temporary period of Tom Wacombs the 301 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: sheriff he had the fact of So it's kind an 302 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: interesting history. 303 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 2: And that happens now, yeah. 304 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can. It's dependent upon state law. And that's 305 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: the craziness of all of this is because these you've 306 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 1: got two systems in the United States, You've got the 307 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: corner system and the medical examiner system. And still there's 308 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: mid twenties, I guess number of states that still have corners, 309 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: and they're in various different structures, and so the corner 310 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: is a very powerful position and ancient. As a matter 311 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: of fact, Dave, the word corner, bailiff, and sheriff are 312 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,440 Speaker 1: probably the only words that we could recognize if we 313 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 1: were reading the Magna Carta. It's like in the twenty 314 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: seventh chapter and those names all appear. That's how old 315 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: this is. That's how ancient the office is. So with 316 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: King Richard, he you know, his goal was to take Jerusalem, okay, 317 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: but he was kidnapped a couple of times and held 318 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: for ransom. And we've all heard about Robin Hood and 319 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: you know evil King John Well, King John was his brother, 320 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: and he became you know, the king in the absence 321 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: of King Richard the first Well, the sheriffs who were 322 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: originally formed not so much for law enforcement but for taxation, 323 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: and they still collect taxes to this day. That office does. 324 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: The money wasn't making it back to the crown. It 325 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: would go to all of the lords. So they had 326 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: to figure out a way to engineer this thing. And 327 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: of course it's always going to go down to the 328 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: lowest man on the totem pole, who's the is everyday citizen. 329 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: They're going to tax you for something, and if the 330 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: crowd needs some money, they're going to come and they're 331 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: going to tax you for dying and forfeiting property if 332 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: you commit suicide and all these other weird things like this, 333 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: And so those monies would be sent directly to the 334 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: king to finance further finance these exploits that he was on. 335 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: You know, went back to the corner thing of where 336 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 2: you know, you find a body in your yard, you're 337 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 2: responsible for it. And I was reading along and it 338 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: was like they actually got to the point where it 339 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: was so bad on the commoners, you know, that they 340 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: actually would take the body and drag it to a 341 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: different town. 342 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: Just yeah, you get it out of the yard, because. 343 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: I don't want this. I can't afford to have this 344 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 2: dead body in my yard and pay for everything. 345 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, and it would fall squarely on their shoulders, yeah, 346 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: or the not citizens subjects shoulders. Right. 347 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: And it makes you understand why our founding fathers had 348 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 2: such disdain, a broad understanding of how bad it could 349 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: be and what they wanted to That's what people don't 350 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 2: understand is that this system that you showed me about 351 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 2: the corner system, where it began and how it operated, 352 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: that's what our forefathers wanted to get away from, so 353 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 2: that the little guy had a chance, that the little 354 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: guy didn't put the bill for the rich and powerful, 355 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: that the little guy could become something better than what 356 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,439 Speaker 2: they had been born into. Because this actually defined it. 357 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: When I saw, I'm thinking to myself, somebody dies in 358 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: my yard. I have to pay for everything, right, kid, 359 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,959 Speaker 2: load up the wagon. We're dragging this guy over. You know. 360 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it's an interesting you know when you 361 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: think about going back all you know over you know, 362 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: I don't know a thousand years, you know, as ancients 363 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: as this office is they had no other system. There 364 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: was not a system that was in existence prior to this, 365 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: So they've kind of created this thing, and what do 366 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: you do with it. Well, people are going to die. 367 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: They're going to die in unexplained ways. And it's from 368 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: this position of the origin of the office of corner 369 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: which began to kind of evolve out of that medieval context. 370 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: It's going to evolve with English common law. And fascinatingly enough, 371 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 1: when America was colonized Dave, they had no other system, 372 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: so they brought the corner system with them, and some 373 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: of the first inquiries that were ever held were in 374 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: the Massachusetts Bay Colony and their early examples of actual 375 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: corners juries being impaneled, which is a completely different thing 376 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: than we might be used to in the world. Even 377 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: though the corner still has the ability to call and 378 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:58,719 Speaker 1: seat a corner's jury to determine what the manner and 379 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: cause of death are, they can impanel this group of people. 380 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: Another very interesting aside that has to do with Bonnie 381 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: and Clyde and the corner system is that many many 382 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: years ago. This thing's all over the web now, but 383 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: I actually had an original photostatic copy of the reports 384 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: on Bonny and Clyde's body bodies. I was working as 385 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: a corner investigator in Louisiana and I was at State 386 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: Corners meeting and I met the Corner at that time, 387 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: or one of their assistants, I can't remember which one. 388 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 1: They had the original copy of the Corner's jury that 389 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: had been impaneled in order to make the determination about 390 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: Bonnie and Clyde, and said would you like a copy 391 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: of it? I was like, are you kidding me? Of 392 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: course I would. I've still got that copy. They mailed 393 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: it to me, and it's folded up in my desk 394 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: somewhere at work, and it's fascinating. It's actually written out 395 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: in Longhand. And there were twelve men that sat on 396 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: this jury, on this Corner's jury to the mannering cause 397 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 1: of Bonnie and Clyde's death or to bear witness to it. 398 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: And they examined it, Yeah, exactly, and they go into 399 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: great descriptors for back then of the clothing that Bonnie 400 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: and Clyde were both wearing. They talked about the circumstances, 401 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: how this was, you know, kind of set up, and 402 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: that they were there, you know, the law enforcement Frank 403 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: Hamer laid in wait with his posse and they lit 404 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: him up. And but you know, it goes into great 405 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: detail talking about the clothing, the gunshot wounds, all this 406 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: sorts of things, and they they didn't necessarily do what 407 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: we would consider to be a modern forensic autopsy, but 408 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: they knew because this was so significant that they had 409 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: to document it. And that's what it comes down to 410 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: when we began to think about the documentation of death 411 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: leaving a mark behind that someone has actually existed and 412 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: dwelled in this world and what exactly brought about their deaths. 413 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: But here's the problem. Even though we now exist in 414 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: these times which we're surrounded by all of this technology, 415 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: marvelous technology that we didn't even have access to when 416 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: I started my career many years ago. Now we live 417 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: in a world that where we're making decisions at a 418 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: molecular level about things and about crime science and forensic science. 419 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: Still to this day, this ancient office is still trying 420 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: to figure out where its place is in this world. 421 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard the old term the sun never 422 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: sat on the British Empire? Have you ever heard that 423 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: term before? Yeah, So take that idea, all right, and 424 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: what that means is that wherever the British had a 425 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: colony of some kind, they would introduce the law of 426 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: the land would be British common law, okay. And along 427 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: with that came the office of corner. So when you 428 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: begin to think about this office, this ancient office, you 429 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: can still go to Australia and go to New Zealand, 430 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: go to Canada. Here in the US and a lot 431 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: of their former protectorates around the world, you're still going 432 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: to find at least a semblance of the corner system 433 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: is still in place, and it comes into a variety 434 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: of different forms. Corners for the longest have been certainly 435 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: in Great Britain, I think even you know they're they're 436 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: like solicitors there. They're essentially attorneys that are in positions 437 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: of authority. And we even see that like, for instance, 438 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: the county in Nebraska, for instance, the county attorney is 439 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: the corner or as a corner there. And it varies 440 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: from state to state, and so about I don't know, 441 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: I guess probably about a third of the United States 442 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: still has the office of corner where it's solely the corner. 443 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: In my jurisdiction in Louisiana, it's completely a corner state there, right, okay, 444 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: And what that means is, in order to be the 445 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: corner for a particular parish, you have to be a 446 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: physician to run for the office. Okay, you're with me, 447 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 1: so at least you have a baseline understanding of where 448 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: a basic human anatomy and pathology and all that sort 449 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: of things. Here in Alabama, the only educational requirement is 450 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: a high school diploma or equivalency to run for the 451 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: same office. 452 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: Scared me to death when I found out a friend 453 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 2: of mine was running for corner and I asked them, why, 454 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 2: you know you self, carpet, You know, how does. 455 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: What is that? 456 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 2: How can you possibly be a corner without having a 457 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 2: medical background? 458 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: Yeah? I know, And a lot of people are amazed 459 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: by that. And listen, they're fine corners out there that 460 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: don't have a dozen letters after their name. Just people 461 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: are committed to doing a good job. They see that 462 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: there is a need for somebody to take care of 463 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: the dead and by extension, take care of families that 464 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: are associated with the dead and trying to help them 465 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: through the process. But that's the big rub, you know. 466 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: The first time we actually hear the term medical examiner 467 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: in the US is I think it goes back to 468 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: I think it's in Massachusetts back in the eighteen seventies. 469 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: They realized at that point in time, and again Massachusetts, 470 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: you know, one of the original original colonies, Massachusetts Bay Colony. 471 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 1: All these sorts of things, they understood that they needed 472 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: medical consultation, and so there was kind of a position 473 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: that was established where the individual would consult with the 474 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: corner and give advice to the corner because these are 475 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: you know, these matters involving death are highly complex. You're 476 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 1: not going to understand form and function if you're an 477 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,959 Speaker 1: elected individual. You're not going to understand basic pathology, anatomy, 478 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things. And that's when you first 479 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: get this idea that modern medicine was dipping its toe 480 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: into the water of government administration relative to how are 481 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: the dead going to be administered? They're in their families 482 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: and all these sorts of things. 483 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 2: That's what you've sent to me, Joe. Yeah, So the 484 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 2: first election that they actually had for a position of 485 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: coroner happened in Plymouth, Massachusetts in sixteen thirty six. Yeah, 486 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 2: and there's this paragraph that came from the piece that 487 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 2: you sent me that it says in all states the 488 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: was charged with convening an inquest when notified that someone 489 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,959 Speaker 2: in their jurisdiction, originally within walking distance, had come to 490 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 2: his death by violence or suffered an untimely death. Such inquests, 491 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: wherever practical, were to take place where the body lies, 492 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 2: and were to be attended by a specific number of 493 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: quote good and lawful men, and that number was different 494 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 2: from state to state. Eight in Massachusetts, but fourteen in 495 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 2: South Carolina. And they were to be under oath upon 496 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 2: and then quote upon a view of the body they're 497 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: lying dead, how in what manner, and by whom he 498 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 2: or she came to his or her death. This is 499 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 2: very specific and very orderly of what is expected to 500 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: be determined when there is a dead body that did 501 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 2: not die naturally. This goes back to the basis of 502 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: our nation. We started with this in place, right, and 503 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 2: now we have what you've explained to the different there's 504 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 2: a difference between a coroner and now medical examiner. 505 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is. And you'll have this fusion of many 506 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: states that you'll go to will have both an elected 507 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: corner at the county level and then there will be 508 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: a state quote unquote state and medical examiner, who many times, 509 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: which I'm not in agreement with the way this works, 510 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: will be governed or administered by the state, the overarching 511 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: state law enforcement mechanism. Okay, so you can have a 512 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: state medical examiner, but they work under the structure of 513 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: law enforcement. I'm not a fan of that. I like 514 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: the idea of an independent group of people that can 515 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: make a determination without being influenced by any outside factors, 516 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: including law enforcement or prosecutors. That's the idea. You want 517 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: people that are going to be objective, that are going 518 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: to be more importantly scientifically objective. They're not going to 519 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: allow policy and politics and all sorts of things to 520 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,719 Speaker 1: influence what they're seeing before them, all right, and so, 521 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: and they're not necessarily going to have a dog in 522 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: a fight when it comes to thinking about how things 523 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: are prosecuted. I'll give you an interesting kind of situation here, 524 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: and this has always fascinated me. In California, for instance, 525 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: it's not this way all over the state, but this 526 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,239 Speaker 1: goes to show you how hid and miss it is. 527 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: They have the office of Corner Sheriff. So the sheriff 528 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: actually has a division within that office that works as 529 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:40,719 Speaker 1: the corner Okay, you can go to other locations where 530 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: you'll have a standalone corner that they have no contact 531 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: with law enforcement. They are a standalone Like I mentioned 532 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: in Louisiana, for instance, where it is Parish to Paris, 533 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: you have to be a physician. And I think the 534 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: way it used to go was it might still go 535 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: this way. Corner there would be a physician. If a 536 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: physician was not available, a dentist could run. If a 537 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: dentist was not available, a veterinarian could run. And so 538 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: that was kind of how that whole. But they had 539 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: the idea that at least you had to have some 540 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: kind of basic understanding of how this all operated. And 541 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: if you like that one, let me give you one 542 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: more again. I'm focusing a little bit heavily in this 543 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: episode about Louisiana, but it's where I learned. It's where 544 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: I started out. I started out in a corner system 545 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: and wound up in a medical examiner system. In Louisiana, 546 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: the corner is a person that was responsible for committals. 547 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: Let that sink in. So I, in addition to being 548 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: a death investigator, I would have to go out and 549 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: write what we're referred to as Orders of protective custody. Wow, 550 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: And it's one of the most bizarre things. If and 551 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: you know, essentially all the loved one would have to 552 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: say is they are a danger to themselves and others. 553 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: We would write out an OPC, hand it over to 554 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: the local constabulary where that's the sheriff or the municipality, 555 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: and they got and they take this person into custody 556 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: and take them to a mental hospital and keep them 557 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: in there for twenty four hours. There was another one 558 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: for seventy two. And then there's deputy corners who are 559 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: psychiatrists that would go out and do the examinations. So 560 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: you've got you've got this wide variety of kind of 561 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,720 Speaker 1: how this office is morphed. And the thing about sheriff's offices, 562 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: even though they they existed at the same time the 563 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: corner existed, they've pretty much stayed the same. You know, 564 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: what their responsibilities are. You know, from state to state 565 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: the corner first off, if your state has a corner, 566 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: it's their duties might vary widely from one state to 567 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 1: the next. It's such an odd arrangement and people and 568 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: no wonder there's a lot of confusion out there about 569 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: the way the systems are set up and how they're administered, 570 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: and what qualifies you to be a corner. Here's one 571 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: of the problems that arises though, the days of people 572 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: sitting at home and just taking things on things on 573 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: face value scientifically, to say, well, we've got an elected 574 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: official who has been deemed worthy to sit in this office. 575 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: It's going to make a determination about manner and cause 576 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 1: of death. Those days are gone because public has awakened 577 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: to the level of where we are technologically. They have 578 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: an expectation that what they see on television is going 579 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: to translate into those individuals that are holding office, you 580 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: know that are, let's face it, making decisions about the 581 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: most horrific thing that's ever going to befall a family. 582 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: We're talking about a death right, So what's your level 583 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: of understanding, you know, as to what's going on. And 584 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: I think that's that's the place where we are, Dave 585 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: in the country right now. 586 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 2: I think the fact that when you and I are 587 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 2: talking about a death or an investigation, and having been 588 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 2: around a lot of this for a long time, I 589 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,720 Speaker 2: still am shocked at how little I know with what's 590 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 2: going on in the investigation and how much I depend 591 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,760 Speaker 2: on you to fill in the blanks on what happened. 592 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 2: It's not as clear cut as it appears. This person 593 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 2: might have been shot, but they also might have been stabbed. 594 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,280 Speaker 2: Think about this with the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy 595 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 2: sixty one years later, we're still arguing. Yeah, And that's 596 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 2: why I look at this and I just thought silly 597 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 2: that corner medical examiner were the exact same thing. I 598 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,839 Speaker 2: thought they were independent of police, because I cannot imagine 599 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 2: how it can possibly be good that those two entities 600 00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 2: should work one of the same. 601 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: They have to be separate. Yeah, they have to be separate. 602 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 1: You have to be collegial, you know, you have to 603 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,320 Speaker 1: be able to get along, and you do, but you 604 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: don't want influence exerted. And here here's another thing you mentioned, JFK. 605 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: You know Earl Rose, who we talked about extensively, that 606 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: was there at Parkland. He was a newly minted medical examiner. 607 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: This was a new construct in Dallas, you know, at 608 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: that time, in Texas, because do you know who the 609 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: de facto corner is in Texas? They don't use the 610 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: term corner. The justice of the peace in a county 611 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: in Texas is actually the de facto corner. So you 612 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: have that little dynamic going on, and it's so variable 613 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: from state to state and many many Hey look, many 614 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: states have done away with the office of corner and 615 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 1: you really wonder, you know, how has that been backfilled 616 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: since that time? Is it? Are those offices? Are they 617 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: sufficient to the task? You think about like Florida, for instance, 618 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: they don't have corners. They used to have corners years ago. 619 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: They have district medical examiners and they literally have the 620 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: state broken into districts and you have a forensic pathologist 621 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,280 Speaker 1: that administrates that particular district and it's an efficient system 622 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: and the people there are trained, are highly trained to 623 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: go out and do you know, to do the job 624 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: of being a death investigator, a medical legal death investigator, 625 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,839 Speaker 1: a medical legal office that's going to bring in accurate information. Now, 626 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: there are fine offices out there that are strictly corners, 627 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: offices that do a bang up job. You know, I 628 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: think about Nevada, for instance, they don't have medical examiners 629 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: in Nevada. A city of Las Vegas has a corner. 630 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,319 Speaker 1: Clark County has a corner, and they do a fine job. 631 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you know if you watch 632 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: television at all, I think one of those CIS shows 633 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: was based there in Vegas, and the corner plays a 634 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: prominent role in that. The problem is this, if you 635 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: do a way with the office of corner, we're you 636 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: going to replace it with you know what, what are 637 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 1: you prepare to And I'm saying you in the universal sense, 638 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: what are you what are you going to replace it with? 639 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: Do you have do you have the mechanism in place 640 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: to go back and hire someone? Because medical examiners are 641 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: actually appointed, it's not an elected position, and their physicians 642 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: and in the ideal situation you want a board certified 643 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: forensic pathologist to be the chief medical examiner for that area. 644 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: Where are you going to find one of those? Because 645 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 1: it's out of all of the specialties in medicine, it's 646 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: it's one of the least populated. It's a forensic pathology 647 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: is an example of those things. It's like the the 648 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: more education you get, the less money you make. And 649 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: it's like, you know what you know because you're going 650 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 1: to go through and let's let's look at that now. 651 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: Let's let's look at it this way. If you're going 652 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: to become a forensic pathologist. This is what you have 653 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: to do. You got to get an undergraduate degree pre med, chemistry, biokim, 654 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 1: whatever it is. Then you're going to go to medical 655 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: school for four years, all right, So you're eight years 656 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 1: in in higher ed at this point in time. After 657 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: you finish medical school, then you're going to have to 658 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: do a pathology residency, which involves everything from how to 659 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 1: run a medical laboratory to how to do anatomical dissections 660 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: looking for specific disease pathology, Dave. That course of training, 661 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 1: the pathology residency alone is five years. Wow. And then 662 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,439 Speaker 1: if you want to be a forensic pathologist, you've got 663 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: to find a fellowship that's an additional year. So after 664 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 1: you've gone through I don't know however many years of training, 665 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 1: then you're going to become a government employee. And let 666 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: that sink in just for a second. You've gone through 667 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: all of this training and there's not a lot of 668 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 1: people and then you all always have to look at 669 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,879 Speaker 1: it this way. If you have the training, are these 670 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,359 Speaker 1: people sufficient to the task? Are they really good at 671 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: what they do? Because you, as you know, and I 672 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: know from just having lived life, we know that everybody 673 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: that enters into a field is not necessarily good at 674 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: what they do, and there's no guarantees with it, and 675 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: so the smaller the pool is what I'm saying. You know, 676 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: you have to find somebody that's not only a good 677 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,879 Speaker 1: friends of pathologist. Here's the rub. You've got to find 678 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,280 Speaker 1: somebody that's a good administrator because you're dealing with people 679 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,839 Speaker 1: that are dealing that are having to view and deal 680 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: with things that most of us can even begin to imagine. 681 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 1: So when people rush to say, well, we need to 682 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 1: do away with a corner system, we need to turn 683 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,720 Speaker 1: this thing around and bring us all into modern times, Okay, 684 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 1: that's fine, come up with a plan. Tell us what 685 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: are you going to do. What are you going to 686 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: do in order to place that person, because they have 687 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,240 Speaker 1: to be replaced. Somebody has to make the determinations about 688 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: manner and cause of death, those things that we always 689 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 1: talk about on body backs, and to go in and 690 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: fill that position so that it is going to serve 691 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,239 Speaker 1: the people of a particular jurisdiction at the worst possible 692 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: time of their life, to give them the answers that 693 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: they deserve. And you know, it's hard to go in 694 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: and create a brand new mechanism where one has not 695 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 1: existed before. I think Richard the First understood that to 696 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: a certain degree because the office was essentially conjured and 697 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:43,719 Speaker 1: brought into existence, and it's been in existence for well 698 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: over a thousand years now. Who's going to undertake the 699 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,360 Speaker 1: job of replacing the office? I don't see it happening 700 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: anytime soon. The one thing that I can say, one 701 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 1: thing I do know is that we have to have 702 00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:01,799 Speaker 1: people that are out there that are technically proficient and 703 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: that are compassionate, because at the end of the day, 704 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: it all comes down to that family member that you're 705 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: either going to be standing in their doorway, seated across 706 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,120 Speaker 1: the desk from and you're going to have to give 707 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:20,799 Speaker 1: them the most horrible news that they've ever received that 708 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 1: their loved one has passed on. Do you have the 709 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: skills sufficient to the task to be a corner That's 710 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 1: the question that has to be asked. I'm Joseph Scott 711 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body Bags