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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. It is Saturday, so we have a

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Speaker 1: vault episode for you. This is going to be part

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Speaker 1: four of four in our Cynicism series. This one originally

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Speaker 1: published four twenty four, twenty twenty five. Let's jump right in.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with

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Speaker 3: the fourth and final part in our series on cinicism.

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Speaker 3: There has been a light at the end of the

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Speaker 3: tunnel and we finally reached it. So in Part one,

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Speaker 3: we defined cynicism as the tendency to believe that people

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Speaker 3: are bad, selfish, and untrustworthy, and we distinguished this modern

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Speaker 3: deion from other concepts like the cynic philosophy of ancient Greece,

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Speaker 3: which is a whole different thing, and from similar but

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Speaker 3: distinct concepts like pessimism. We also looked at research on

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Speaker 3: the correlates of cynicism across a bunch of domains of life,

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Speaker 3: from health to career and all kinds of things, and

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Speaker 3: discovered that being highly cynical tends to have overwhelmingly negative

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Speaker 3: effects on a person's life. In Part two, we focused

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Speaker 3: primarily on the so called cynical genius illusion. The short

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Speaker 3: version of this is that while people might not necessarily

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Speaker 3: like highly cynical people for whatever reason, we tend to

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Speaker 3: assume that they are smart and competent in cognitive domains,

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Speaker 3: conforming to the Sherlock Holmes archetype. However, experiments showed that

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Speaker 3: this is not actually the case. On average, highly cynical

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Speaker 3: people are not smarter than everybody else, and if anything,

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Speaker 3: the correlation usually goes the other way, And so we

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Speaker 3: talked about possible reasons for this fact, and also talked

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Speaker 3: about the question of what, if anything, is the actual

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Speaker 3: benefit of generalized cynicism. It seems like one answer is

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Speaker 3: that if you are not very skilled at telling the

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Speaker 3: difference between a trustworthy situation and an untrustworthy one, generalized

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Speaker 3: cynicism may protect you from catastrophic misplacements of trust, but

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Speaker 3: again at great cost to your well being and at

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Speaker 3: the price of many lost opportunities to benefit from trust

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Speaker 3: and cooperation. In Part three, we talked about the role

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Speaker 3: of cynicism in politics, including the idea that cynicism has

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Speaker 3: been on the rise in many democracies around the world

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Speaker 3: for a possible number of reasons, one influence maybe being

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Speaker 3: the use of social media. We also talked about research

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Speaker 3: on the phenomenon of political cynicism, in particular as distinct

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Speaker 3: from just general social cynicism or from simple distrust or

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Speaker 3: skepticism of politicians, and we got into some observed characteristics

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Speaker 3: of how cynicism manifests in political participation. We also talked

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Speaker 3: about how people may use a mask of cynical rhetoric

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Speaker 3: about politics in order to influence how they're perceived by others,

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Speaker 3: maybe to sort of cover up the fact that you

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Speaker 3: maybe don't know a lot about what you're talking about,

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Speaker 3: and we discuss the link between cynicism and a preference

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Speaker 3: for conspiracy based explanations.

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Speaker 1: Another thing we discussed that ties into this episode a

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Speaker 1: little bit is the idea that escape from cynicism in

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Speaker 1: the modern sense, one way to escape from it would

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Speaker 1: be to push through to a point of true disenchantment

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Speaker 1: and essentially become an ancient cynic, a capital C cynic

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Speaker 1: in the philosophical sense. Now, we'll see how well that

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Speaker 1: idea pans out with what we have to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: But to be clear, we're not recommending this as a

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Speaker 1: standard solution to any cynicism you're wrestling with in your life.

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Speaker 1: It's more interesting from the standpoint of understanding what lowercase

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Speaker 1: cynicism and capital C cynicism is. So I think it's

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Speaker 1: an interesting take in that regard, but not necessarily something

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Speaker 1: you want to try for yourself. Like, the answer is

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Speaker 1: not to I think we can. We can state pretty

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Speaker 1: clearly here, don't try to become more cynical about life

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Speaker 1: in order to reach some point of equilibrium.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think maybe I see what the author you

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Speaker 3: were citing when you brought this up is getting at

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Speaker 3: with the idea of a sort of total disenchantment leading

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Speaker 3: to a freedom to once again embrace virtue. I mean

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Speaker 3: that almost seems a kind of Buddhist in a way, like,

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Speaker 3: you know, like losing your love for the things of

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Speaker 3: the world, allowing you to find like different higher levels

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Speaker 3: of appreciation. But I question to what extent that kind

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Speaker 3: of enlightened disenchantment capital C cynicism can actually be reached

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Speaker 3: just by increasing your lowercase C cynicism along the standard dimension,

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Speaker 3: you know, like becoming even less and less trustful. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if that eventually gets you to capital C cynicism.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think its primary purpose is to help us understand

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Speaker 1: the connections between ancient cynicism and modern cynicism, rather than

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Speaker 1: give us an approach for fixing our own lives.

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Speaker 3: Now, given everything that we've talked about so far, one

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Speaker 3: of the things the main things we wanted to talk

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Speaker 3: about today was the question of where cynicism comes from.

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Speaker 3: What can we understand about its origins within a culture

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Speaker 3: and within a person, how it grows and spreads, and

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Speaker 3: thus how can it be counteracted. Is there anything we

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Speaker 3: really know about how to stop the growth of cynicism.

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Speaker 3: I think this is a field where we don't have

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Speaker 3: really strong conclusions yet, but there are some good starting

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Speaker 3: points based on research. And one paper that I came

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Speaker 3: across that addresses this question pretty directly was published in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty three in the journal Trends in Cognitive Sciences

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Speaker 3: by a pair of researchers from the Stanford Psychology Department

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Speaker 3: named Eric Neuman and Jamil Zaki. And this paper is

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Speaker 3: called Toward a Social Psychology of Cynicism. So the authors

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Speaker 3: begin this paper by addressing what they called the cynicism paradox.

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Speaker 3: Cynicism quote tracks numerous negative outcomes, and yet many people

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Speaker 3: are cynical. And so this is really something we've already

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Speaker 3: been talking about this series, but kind of with a

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Speaker 3: different framing. We've been asking the question, if cynicism is

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Speaker 3: clearly so bad for our lives, is there any compensating benefit?

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Speaker 3: Because if it's harmful and lots of people are highly

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Speaker 3: cynical anyway, shouldn't you think there's probably some kind of

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Speaker 3: trade off that makes it worth the cost. We've already

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Speaker 3: mentioned several specific ways or scenarios in which it might

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Speaker 3: be adaptive, but then again, it might just be one

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Speaker 3: of those things that is just plain bad for us

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Speaker 3: but happens anyway, Like, for example, depression. You might be

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Speaker 3: able to explain how depression grows out of biological mechanisms

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Speaker 3: that are evolved in order to be adaptive for us,

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Speaker 3: but you don't have to assume that depression itself has

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Speaker 3: benefits overall. It's just like something's gone wrong and it's

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Speaker 3: bad for us. It's possible cynicism is usually the same way.

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Speaker 3: But the authors here sort of take the same idea

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Speaker 3: and they frame it as this paradox, cynicism hurts the

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Speaker 3: cynic and yet cynicism seems to spread and bloom a

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Speaker 3: new year after year. And so the authors say, given

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Speaker 3: the observation of the cynicism paradox, research within social psychology

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Speaker 3: should focus on a couple of questions. Where cynicism comes from,

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Speaker 3: and how it spreads, and how can it be countered,

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Speaker 3: diminished or alleviated. So first the question what explains cynicism?

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Speaker 3: Where does it come from? First they address the possibility,

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Speaker 3: what if the cynic is right. We've talked about this

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Speaker 3: from a number of angles. Maybe cynicism is just an

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Speaker 3: accurate assessment based on observations of the world. In the

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Speaker 3: words of the authors quote, perhaps it reflects a realistic

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Speaker 3: perception of the suffering caused by human self interest. But

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Speaker 3: we've already explored research casting serious doubt on this, for example,

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Speaker 3: the various experiments showing that people tend to grossly overestimate

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Speaker 3: the selfishness and treachery of strangers. Most people in most

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Speaker 3: types of situations are actually pretty trustworthy. And the authors

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Speaker 3: seem to agree with this conclusion, and so instead they

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Speaker 3: identify three ways that they think cynicism arises it's not

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Speaker 3: necessarily that it is an accurate model of the world.

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Speaker 3: But instead quote we will argue that people often overestimate

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Speaker 3: self interest, create it through their expectations, or overstate their

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Speaker 3: own to not appear naive. Now, the authors here acknowledged that,

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Speaker 3: of course cynicism can be and often is, responsive to

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Speaker 3: observation of the real world. For example, this is an

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Speaker 3: experimental finding. We become more cynical when we witness people

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Speaker 3: behaving selfishly. If you do an experiment where you stage

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Speaker 3: people catching somebody doing something selfish and untrustworthy, that actually

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Speaker 3: makes us less likely to trust. So we've witnessed an

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Speaker 3: example that trust, you know, did not turn out well,

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Speaker 3: and it affects our baseline in a way, at least

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Speaker 3: within the situation, we become less trusting. But jumping off

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Speaker 3: of this, they say that we can easily, because of

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Speaker 3: various psychological phenomena, biases, and so forth, become kind of

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Speaker 3: trapped in an unrealistically cynical mindset that is not a

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Speaker 3: good model of how the world usually works and brings

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Speaker 3: with it all the harms we've talked about. And you know,

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Speaker 3: you can think about this in a number of different

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Speaker 3: psychological domains. Your initial tendency is based on an observation,

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Speaker 3: like you do see a betrayal or an example of

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Speaker 3: somebody acting selfishly, but then you form an inaccurate, totalizing

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Speaker 3: worldview based on that one salient example.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this really insightful table that they cite here

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Speaker 1: that I found very interesting with these different categories of cynicism,

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Speaker 1: group cynicism, institutional cynicism, and general cynicism, and this kind

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Speaker 1: of model for how things might intensify. So, like one

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Speaker 1: example they include is a young colleague betrays an older

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Speaker 1: one in a team project. What does the older colleague conclude?

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Speaker 1: And so the initial cynicism is, well, young people are

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Speaker 1: self interested, and then that's the group cynicism. Then the

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Speaker 1: institutional cynicism is people in the workplace are self interested,

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Speaker 1: and then the general cynicism is people are self interested.

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Speaker 1: And so you can you can imagine like a blossoming

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Speaker 1: of cynicism more or less along these routes, you know,

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Speaker 1: from being highly specific to you know, a particular encounter,

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Speaker 1: to being increasing generalities about the way the world works.

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Speaker 3: That's an interesting point. Yeah, And in fact, though the

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Speaker 3: cynicism may be inaccurate at every single stage in this progression.

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Speaker 3: So like, let's say I observe Johnny doing something selfish

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Speaker 3: in one instance, and I start by saying Johnny is

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Speaker 3: an untrustworthy person. That may not actually be true about Johnny.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I just caught him at his worst moment, but

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Speaker 3: it might be true about Johnny. Then I abstract it

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Speaker 3: to some group Johnny belongs to. For some reason, his

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Speaker 3: membership in a particular group is meaningful to me, and

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Speaker 3: so I see him as representative of that group and

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Speaker 3: apply the untrustworthiness to the whole group. And then I

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Speaker 3: could branch out even further to some institution in which

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Speaker 3: Johnny exists, and then possibly to all of humankind. But

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Speaker 3: at every single level, it's possible you are actually not

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Speaker 3: drawing a good generalization from observing one instance of behavior.

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Speaker 1: This made me think about cynicism on The Simpsons, particularly

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Speaker 1: as it relates to Homer Simpson. There's a famous episode

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Speaker 1: from the Golden Age of Simpson's episodes in which we

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Speaker 1: kind of get an origin story for homer cynicism. It's

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Speaker 1: the City of New York versus Homer, in which a

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Speaker 1: young and optimistic Homer Simpson experiences a number of betrayals

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Speaker 1: and hostilities upon visiting the Big Apple.

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Speaker 3: We talked about this episode in our Weird House Cinema

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Speaker 3: on the Face behind the Mask, because Peter Lourie has

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Speaker 3: the exact same experience.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the exact same experience, and in this episode we

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Speaker 1: see how it leads to an extremely cynical view of

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Speaker 1: New York and New Yorkers. But you could also argue

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Speaker 1: that it perhaps underlines the general anger in cynicism that

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Speaker 1: comes to define Homer, at least in these early classic

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Speaker 1: seasons of the show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, though it is interesting how malleable Homer's character is,

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Speaker 3: and yet he still feels like a cohesive character, like

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Speaker 3: sometimes Homer is very, very trusting and other times he's

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Speaker 3: very cynical.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's changed a lot over the years. I mean

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Speaker 1: not in a character development way, but just in the

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Speaker 1: realities of the show being on television this long, with

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Speaker 1: this many different writers over over the years, various commentators

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Speaker 1: have discussed how in the early Simpsons, or certainly the

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Speaker 1: golden age of the Simpsons, you have this mix of

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Speaker 1: cynicism and heart that kind of balances everything out. But

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Speaker 1: the cynicism and melancholy have been observed to be particularly

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Speaker 1: strong during that first season, and then they move away

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Speaker 1: from that, and then eventually they kind of move away

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Speaker 1: from homer cynicism and anger in general and double down

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Speaker 1: on his frankness and his stupidity, so he becomes you know,

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Speaker 1: it's more about like the dumb jokes and the gullible

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Speaker 1: Homer as we proceed. But if you if you look

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Speaker 1: at the New York episode, and you look at some

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Speaker 1: of these episodes from from the from like the nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 1: you can easily fill out a chart watching how we

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Speaker 1: have a situation where Homer encounters selfish people in New York,

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Speaker 1: and then this fosters into a worldview that, well, all

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Speaker 1: New Yorkers are selfish, and then maybe all people are

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Speaker 1: selfish as well. You can imagine it being like the

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Speaker 1: thing that blossoms out into Homer's general cynicism.

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Speaker 3: Right, this is a great comparison. So, yeah, it begins

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Speaker 3: as the observation of an individual action or behavior and

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Speaker 3: then generalizing to the person who did that, then the

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Speaker 3: group to whom that person belongs, and then to the

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Speaker 3: society at large, and then to all of humankind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and tell you you're the type of person who's

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Speaker 1: like of course I'm going to steal roadside sugar because

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Speaker 1: anyone else would do the same thing.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so anyway.

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Speaker 3: In this paper, the authors try to formulate a model

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Speaker 3: of how cynicism can spread at three different levels of

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Speaker 3: social interaction. So one is through interactions at the interpersonal

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Speaker 3: level between two people, the next is at the intra

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Speaker 3: group level within groups, and then finally at the intergroup

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Speaker 3: level between groups. So regarding the interpersonal level of cynicism

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Speaker 3: of formation, the authors raise the question what if at

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Speaker 3: the interpersonal level, cynicism is a self fulfilling prophecy In

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Speaker 3: other words, an initially false belief, or at least a

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Speaker 3: belief not based on evidence, whether whether true or false,

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Speaker 3: an initially false belief that influences the behavior of the

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Speaker 3: believer in such a way that they make the world

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Speaker 3: conform to the way they believe it is. And psychological

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Speaker 3: research has identified a bunch of dynamics like this. Self

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Speaker 3: fulfilling prophecies show up in all kinds of ways in

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Speaker 3: our behavior. For example, some experiments have found that if

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Speaker 3: you treat somebody in a way that indicates you have

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Speaker 3: high expectations of their competence, it can actually make them

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Speaker 3: more competent, And obviously there would be limits to effects

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Speaker 3: like this. You know, you can't just, you know, like

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Speaker 3: hand somebody who knows nothing about medicine a scalpel and

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Speaker 3: say I believe in you, go do the surgery. You

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Speaker 3: know they're probably not going to know what to do,

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Speaker 3: but within certain limits of a plausible knowledge and behavior,

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Speaker 3: you can imagine how having somebody else show confidence in

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Speaker 3: you can make you more confident in yourself, maybe make

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Speaker 3: you less nervous, increase your performance certain types of jobs,

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Speaker 3: or maybe having somebody treat you as competent makes you

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Speaker 3: more conscientious, more careful to do a good job so

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Speaker 3: as not to disappoint them, and so forth, and so

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Speaker 3: then the authors say, quote, just like expectations about competence

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Speaker 3: cynical expectations of moral character and become self fulfilling. So

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Speaker 3: examples of this remember the trust based investing game that

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Speaker 3: we talked about in previous episodes in the series, where

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Speaker 3: I am given some money and then I have the

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Speaker 3: option to either keep the money or hand it over

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Speaker 3: to a stranger, at which point the money gets quadrupled.

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Speaker 3: So maybe I initially get five dollars if I hand

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Speaker 3: it to the stranger, it becomes twenty dollars, and then

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Speaker 3: the stranger has the option to either keep all of

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Speaker 3: the money for themselves or split the money and give

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Speaker 3: me back ten dollars, so we both get ten and

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Speaker 3: I double my initial investment. This was one of the

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Speaker 3: experiments that found strangers almost always honor the investors trust

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Speaker 3: and give half the money back, but people greatly underestimated

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Speaker 3: how often that would happen. We overestimate the selfishness and

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Speaker 3: treachery of strangers anyway. The authors mentioned that in trust

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Speaker 3: based games of this sort, maybe not exactly this game,

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Speaker 3: but something like it, if one player treats the other

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Speaker 3: with cynicism, the other player actually becomes measurably less trustworthy

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Speaker 3: in how they play the game. In other words, if

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Speaker 3: you treat me like you expect me to be selfish,

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Speaker 3: I actually become more selfish than I would have been otherwise.

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Speaker 3: And this dynamic has been found in laboratory experiments, of course,

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Speaker 3: but also found in the wild in real life scenarios.

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Speaker 3: For example, studies of workplaces that find when management treats

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Speaker 3: workers with suspicion like they expect them to break the

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Speaker 3: rules and they're trying to you know, make sure to

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Speaker 3: really crack down and make sure you don't break the rules.

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Speaker 3: It actually makes workers more likely to break the rules.

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Speaker 4: Quote.

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Speaker 3: When cynical supervisors expect low compliance and titan supervision, they

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Speaker 3: actually lower compliance. This, of course might not be the

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Speaker 3: case in every workplace all the time, but it has

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Speaker 3: been observed and it intuitively makes sense to me. You know,

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Speaker 3: when a person is treated with trust, they may feel

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Speaker 3: incentivized to rise to meet that trust, And when they're

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Speaker 3: treated with cynical suspicion, the mind rebels and says, no,

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Speaker 3: go to hell.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, if you actually put a sign up no

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Speaker 1: stealing pins or no you know, printing out of dungeons

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Speaker 1: and dragon supplements on the on the work printer, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna be like, well why not, Why

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Speaker 1: shouldn't I have pins? Why shouldn't I have color printouts

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Speaker 1: of my dn D manuals come on?

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Speaker 3: Or just more generally, I mean, I think a lot

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Speaker 3: of people will know the feeling of it does not

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Speaker 3: inspire you to be the best kind of worker. If

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Speaker 3: you have the boss constantly looking over your shoulder, that

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Speaker 3: just kind of makes you you feel like, well, okay,

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Speaker 3: well why do I give a damn about this?

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Speaker 1: You know, I wasn't gonna mention too much about diagenies

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Speaker 1: in this episode because I don't want to confuse things

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Speaker 1: too much. But there are there are some stories of

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Speaker 1: diagenies where people expect him to act like a dog

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Speaker 1: in the street, and then they would like throw food

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Speaker 1: to defeed him like a dog, but then he kind

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Speaker 1: of ups the ante and and outdogs them by then

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Speaker 1: peeing on them like a dog, which we could maybe

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Speaker 1: apply to this scenario. It's like, like, yeah, if you

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Speaker 1: think I'm a dog, watch how much of a dog

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Speaker 1: I can be?

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Speaker 3: Okay, Another self fulfilling prophecy dynamic at the interpersonal level.

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Speaker 3: This one's actually even simpler, person to person respect quote.

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Speaker 3: More generally, cynics assume the worst in others and accordingly

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Speaker 3: treat them with less respect. A recent paper uses lab

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Speaker 3: experiments and daily diary methods to show that cynics often

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Speaker 3: disrespect others. Since people dislike being disrespected, they often return

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Speaker 3: the disrespect. That's pretty straightforward. That makes sense to me.

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Speaker 3: So these self fulfilling prophecy dynamics both trap the cynic

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Speaker 3: in their cynical worldview by making those around them less

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Speaker 3: trustworthy and more unpleasant, thus increasing evidence for the cynic's

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Speaker 3: view of humankind. It's like, if you're acting, if you're

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Speaker 3: already cynical, you make your environment better evidence for a

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Speaker 3: cynical worldview. And then also they spread cynicism like an

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Speaker 3: infectious disease, causing those who have dealings with the cynic

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Speaker 3: to themselves become more cynical. All right, So that's the

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Speaker 3: interpersonal level. But the next level of analysis is the

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Speaker 3: intra group level within groups, and here the authors bring

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Speaker 3: up an idea that I thought was really interesting. That

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Speaker 3: is the idea of pluralistic ignorance. Pluralistic ignorance is a

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Speaker 3: group psychology effect that emerges when people mistakenly believe that

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Speaker 3: everybody else thinks differently than they do. A classic illustration

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Speaker 3: of pluralistic ignorance is the story The Emperor's New Clothes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, most people are probably familiar with the Hans Christian

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Speaker 1: Anderson telling of this from eighteen thirty seven, though I'm

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Speaker 1: to understand this was based in part on older tales,

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Speaker 1: and you can also connect it to related stories in

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Speaker 1: various cultures.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but the simplified version is some con artists go

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Speaker 3: to the Emperor, and they say, we've got some beautiful

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Speaker 3: new garments for you, in fact, a magical outfit that

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Speaker 3: can only be seen by people who are intelligent. It's

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Speaker 3: invisible to the dim witted, and the con artists provide

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Speaker 3: the emperor in fact with no clothes at all. But nobody,

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Speaker 3: including the Emperor, wants to admit that they can't see

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Speaker 3: the clothes and thus be thought a fool, so everybody

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Speaker 3: pretends the king has clothes on while he's actually just

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Speaker 3: walking around naked, and nobody is able to speak up

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Speaker 3: about this until finally a child points out the nudity,

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Speaker 3: and finally everybody realizes they've been tricked. This story illustrates

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Speaker 3: pluralistic ignorance because actually everybody privately thinks the Emperor is naked,

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Speaker 3: but they are afraid to say so because they think

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Speaker 3: they're the only one and nobody else is saying it.

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Speaker 3: This story does slightly complicate it by adding the detail

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Speaker 3: that they're afraid of being thought unintelligent, and that's not

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Speaker 3: necessarily part of pluralistic ignorance, but it is pluralistic ignorance

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Speaker 3: because everybody in the story just goes along pretending to

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Speaker 3: believe something that none of them actually privately believes.

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Speaker 1: There's a great treatment of this on the television series

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Speaker 1: Arrested Development with the film project The Ocean Walker, where

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Speaker 1: all the studio people surrounding it just continue to talk

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Speaker 1: about how great it was, but no one actually understood it.

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Speaker 1: But nobody wanted to be seen as the dummy who

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Speaker 1: doesn't get this amazing project.

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Speaker 3: Great example, and you can think of examples like this

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Speaker 3: all throughout you know, it happens all the time. So

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Speaker 3: how could this actually be a factor in the propagation

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Speaker 3: of cynicism the author's right quote. A group can succumb

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Speaker 3: to the norm of self interest, which specifies that people

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Speaker 3: are and should be self interested. Members in such groups

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Speaker 3: present themselves as more elf interested then they really are.

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Speaker 3: So what if most people in a group actually just

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Speaker 3: want to be trustworthy and cooperative, but there is a

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Speaker 3: let's say, a prominent voice within the group saying it's

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Speaker 3: a dog eat dog world. Everybody's just looking out for

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Speaker 3: number one. The speaker could manage to convince the group

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Speaker 3: that everyone else in the group thinks this way too,

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Speaker 3: and the person who is not very selfish and would

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Speaker 3: prefer mutual trust and cooperation, that person feels like they

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Speaker 3: can't really admit how they feel publicly because they would

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Speaker 3: be the only one and they would seem naive or silly,

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Speaker 3: or they would fear that people might think they were

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Speaker 3: misrepresenting themselves, you know, like your virtue signaling. We've heard

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Speaker 3: that kind of thing. And the authors point to a

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Speaker 3: study that looks into this. I was published in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and one by Ratner and Miller, which this paper

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Speaker 3: did several experiments looking into this phenomenon. I looked it

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Speaker 3: up in One of the more persuasive experiments went like this, Okay,

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Speaker 3: if you anonymously privately ask people about whether they would

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Speaker 3: like to take money away from a research project funded

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Speaker 3: through the National Institutes of Health. Most people did not

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Speaker 3: want to take the money away from medical research when

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Speaker 3: asked in private. However, when it was made clear that

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Speaker 3: the research in question could not directly benefit certain participants personally.

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Speaker 3: For example, it's like to cure a disease that only

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Speaker 3: affects a group you do not belong to, people became

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Speaker 3: hesitant to speak up publicly in the group about their

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Speaker 3: opposition to cutting the grant, even though they privately still

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Speaker 3: supported the grant. So to paraphrase. Lots of people wanted

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Speaker 3: to protect medical research that could not benefit them personally,

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Speaker 3: but they were hesitant to publicly speak up about protecting

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Speaker 3: the research unless it could benefit them personally. This hurts me,

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Speaker 3: gives me confidence to speak in public, but want to

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Speaker 3: I just want to help other people. That might be

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Speaker 3: a genuine private motivation, but people were afraid to say

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Speaker 3: that in public. And there could be a number of

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Speaker 3: explanations for this, but based on a few characteristics of

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Speaker 3: the findings, it was interpreted by the researchers as the

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Speaker 3: participants assuming a group norm of cynicism and fearing being

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Speaker 3: judged by cynical third parties. So if you fear that

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Speaker 3: the people watching you are cynical, you become sheepish about

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Speaker 3: publicly supporting something that doesn't benefit you personally, even if

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Speaker 3: you secretly believe it is good. And I thought this

435
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: was so interesting because it's sort of counterintuitive. You know,

436
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 3: we often think in public we want to come off

437
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 3: as good people, and so you know, you would want

438
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 3: to be seen doing something that would help other people.

439
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 3: But I absolutely think this phenomenon it checks out for me.

440
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 3: I've observed this kind of dynamic before and assuming it

441
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 3: is real. It's obviously not the only psychological pressure on

442
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: us in this kind of domain, like there will be

443
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 3: counter pressures pushing in the opposite direction as well, because

444
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 3: obviously sometimes people do speak up publicly in supportive causes

445
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 3: they have no personal stake in. Whether that's simply because

446
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 3: of the strength of their desire to support that cause.

447
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 3: Maybe it's just strong enough to overcome this fear, the

448
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 3: fear of social pressure, of pluralistic ignorance, or maybe there's

449
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 3: just some other social psychological pressure sometimes pushing in the

450
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 3: opposite direction, maybe again like the desire to appear selfless

451
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 3: and moral. But I can absolutely identify the feeling of

452
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 3: the fear of social disapproval based on the assumption of

453
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 3: cynical group norms. Sometimes something is happening that feels really wrong,

454
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 3: and I have an urge to point that out, to

455
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 3: say something about it, but nobody else around me is

456
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 3: saying anything, and I have the feeling like, well, this

457
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 3: is none of my business, and maybe I just don't

458
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 3: understand it well enough, and I'll look naive if I

459
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,719
Speaker 3: say something. But actually, maybe lots of people are secretly

460
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 3: feeling this way because they falsely believe everybody else endorses

461
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 3: a cynical mind your own business mentality.

462
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: I mean, it's very akin to the bystander phenomena in

463
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: some respects, the idea that, oh, well, I'm not the

464
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: one to jump in and help. There's someone else who's

465
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: either more closely aligned with the situation or has the

466
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: expertise that I don't, and then therefore nobody does.

467
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 3: Anything exactly right. But in the case of cynicism, pluralistic ignorance,

468
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 3: creating a false belief in group cynicism has the pernicious

469
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 3: effect of actually creating real, genuine cynicism over time. The

470
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 3: author's write quote, as cynicism rises in a group, it

471
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 3: can make noncinics act in more self interested ways, which

472
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 3: further reinforces group members level of cynicism. It's a feedback loop.

473
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, as folks just essentially become more and more

474
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: cynical just to fit in with the group, and this

475
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: has a potentially transformative effect over time.

476
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, but trying to fit in with the group, even

477
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 3: if they are mistaken about how cynical the group is,

478
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 3: we're like overestimating the cynicism of the group and trying

479
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: to fit in with that false perception.

480
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

481
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 3: And then finally, the authors look at the inter group

482
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 3: level cynicism between different groups, and this section involves meta perceptions,

483
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: essentially what you believe about how other people perceive you.

484
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 3: Some research has found that across many different cultures, groups

485
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 3: within each culture that maybe have antagonistic orientations like opposite

486
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,959
Speaker 3: political parties or you know, just different groups that have

487
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 3: some antagonism, tend to have false overly negative intergroup meta perceptions.

488
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 3: People believe that the out group is more hostile to

489
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 3: their in group than the outgroup actually is, and this

490
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 3: perception gap can lead to actual intergroup cynicism and hostility

491
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 3: via the familiar mechanisms. If you think people hate you,

492
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 3: you treat them with distrust, and treating people with distrust

493
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 3: actually makes them like you less and trust you less. Quote,

494
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 3: false metaperceptions illustrate how people can become more cynical in

495
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 3: part because they overestimate how polarized their fellow citizens are.

496
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 3: All right, So those are the mechanisms the authors identify

497
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 3: for how cynicism grows and spreads. But they say, from

498
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 3: these observations, we can actually offer some tentative suggestions for

499
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 3: how cynicism can be beaten back. I don't think they're

500
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 3: presenting this as like the ultimate remedy, like we know

501
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 3: everything about how to defeat cynicism, but there's some good

502
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 3: starting places here. So at the interpersonal level, they say,

503
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 3: studies show that people appreciate being trusted and seem to

504
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 3: actually become less self interested and less cynical on average

505
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 3: when simply granted trust. So we have an interaction in

506
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 3: which you trust me with something. If you do that,

507
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: ion average will actually become a little bit less cynical

508
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 3: and a little bit less selfish. And the cool thing

509
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 3: about this is that it's transferable. So somebody trusts me,

510
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 3: I actually tend to become not only more likely to

511
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 3: trust that person back, but to trust an unrelated third person. Therefore,

512
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 3: the same way that acts and displays of cynicism can

513
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 3: create this toxic negative feedback loop that increases cynicism for

514
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 3: all parties involved, acts and displays of trust can probably

515
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 3: create a positive feedback loop that contagiously undermines cynicism within

516
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 3: the culture at large.

517
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: So this is the real purpose of the leave a penny,

518
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: Take a penny tray, right, I mean, it's it's building

519
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: a better world.

520
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 4: You joke.

521
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 3: But I think little things like that may indeed make

522
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 3: a difference. You know, I don't have evidence of that

523
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 3: in particular, but I think the little moments of trust

524
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 3: probably do not have to be huge, Like you don't

525
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 3: have to go out so far on a limb. Just

526
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 3: going out a little bit to grant people trust I

527
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 3: think actually surprises them often and has this effect of

528
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 3: undermining cynicism.

529
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that might be the case.

530
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 3: So if you can undermine cynicism by creating these little

531
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 3: moments of you know, just lots of pervasive, little moments

532
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 3: of granting trust, you know, that's a good thing to know.

533
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 3: But I guess the question is like, how do you

534
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,479
Speaker 3: actually implement this? Because you want to affect you want

535
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 3: to primarily affect people who are high in cynicism, or

536
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 3: at least moderate in cynicism. If you are a person

537
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 3: who realizes that you are more cynical than you would

538
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 3: like to be, and you have like the level of

539
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 3: self consciousness and willpower to go out on a limb

540
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 3: and engage in little exercises of trading trust to seed

541
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 3: the ground for a life, obviously, that's great if you

542
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 3: have that self awareness, go for it. But a lot

543
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 3: of highly cynical people are probably not going to do

544
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 3: this on their own, so it probably helps for less

545
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 3: cynical people to kind of deliberately contrive situations of friendly

546
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 3: cooperation to infect people suffering from cynicism with opportunities to

547
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 3: be trusted and to see examples of trust rewarded. I

548
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 3: don't know exactly the best way to do this, obviously,

549
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 3: you can't, like you, force cynical strangers to do trust

550
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 3: falls with you in the grocery store parking a lot.

551
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 3: But surely there are ways to stage parts of your

552
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: life so as to create little points of trading off

553
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 3: of trust and positive social contagion.

554
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. We're going to get into some possible examples of

555
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: this in a bit, but I'll go ahead and mention

556
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: some of it here. These are from some of the

557
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: ideas of an author we've already mentioned, Jamil Zaki, who

558
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: wrote a book about overcoming cynicism, Hope for Cynics, The

559
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: Surprising Eyes of Human Goodness that came out in twenty

560
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: twenty four. But one of the things that he discusses

561
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: is essentially the idea of conducting your own behavioral experiments

562
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: to produce on the whole positive evidence of human goodness.

563
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: So sort of in a way like leaving the door

564
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: open for little examples of trust and allowing that trust

565
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: to wander in again, not leaving the whole door open,

566
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: you know, not you know not like you know, writing

567
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: your social Security number on your arm and just seeing

568
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: if anything anybody does anything bad with it. But little

569
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: smaller acts, things just sprinkle throughout your daily life, like, oh,

570
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: here's a possibility to sprinkle a little trust out there

571
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: and see that trust returned and in doing so, giving

572
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,919
Speaker 1: us more real life evidence of human goodness to counteract

573
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: this welling up of cynicism inside us.

574
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and to place emphasis again on what you just

575
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 3: said and what we were just talking about it. It

576
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 3: doesn't have to be huge risks when you make little

577
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 3: bids for trust. It can be little things. Now, coming

578
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 3: back to the next level of analysis, it was the

579
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 3: intra group level. Remember this was the idea that pluralistic

580
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 3: ignorance can create within a group a false impression that

581
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 3: there is a norm of cynical self interest, that people

582
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 3: are and should be selfish, when really most people in

583
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 3: the group don't actually feel that way. They're just afraid

584
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,479
Speaker 3: to speak up because they think maybe they're the only one.

585
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 3: We might be able to overcome this and other situations

586
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 3: of pluralistic ignorance if we create a culture, we try

587
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 3: to personally demonstrate, act out a culture in which people

588
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 3: have more courage to disagree with what they assume to

589
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 3: be the opinions of the larger group. It might turn

590
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 3: out that it actually is pluralistic ignorance. Maybe a lot

591
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,399
Speaker 3: of people already agree with you, and they just didn't

592
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 3: want to be the only one to say something. And

593
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 3: this is especially important if the assumed group norm is

594
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 3: something poisonous, something that maybe is coming top down, like

595
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 3: it's a dog eat dog world. There's like a really

596
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 3: influential person over the group shouting this message. It's important

597
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 3: that somebody else is saying the opposite. Otherwise the message

598
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 3: shouted from the top can easily become assumed to be

599
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 3: the group norm even if it's not. But also the

600
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 3: authors point out that normative group pressure can work in

601
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 3: the opposite direction. This maybe sounds a little bit grubbier

602
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 3: than some of the other ideas because this involves the

603
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 3: idea of, well, maybe you should employ peer pressure to

604
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 3: positive ends. But the author's write quote just as non

605
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 3: Cynics can behave cynically under a norm of self interest.

606
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 3: So can sinics become more trusting when they feel normative

607
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 3: pressure to do so? There are experiments showing this. Somebody

608
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 3: might have a kind of cynical baseline, but when there's

609
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 3: peer pressure around them to be more trusting, it kind

610
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 3: of works. It makes them a little bit more trusting.

611
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: I mean, this is what the trust falls are all about.

612
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly the trust fall. I don't know, as

613
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 3: a particular act might be overly tainted with the aroma

614
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 3: of corporate seminars, but things like that, I mean, there

615
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 3: is a kind of kernel of wisdom at the inception

616
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 3: of the trust fall. So I don't know, do we

617
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 3: feel good about trying to intentionally use group peer pressure

618
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 3: to influence people? I don't know, Like, using it to

619
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 3: reduce cynicism seems like one of the better uses of

620
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 3: peer pressure than I can imagine.

621
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Plus, just given how nefarious and how just infectious

622
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: cynicism is in our lives, Like, yes, we should pull

623
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: every level we have against it.

624
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 3: And then finally at the inter group level. Remember this

625
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 3: was the example where groups in society become increasingly distrustful

626
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 3: of one another, in part because you imagine that the

627
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 3: other group is more hostile to your group than they

628
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 3: actually are. And the solution here, the authors propose, is

629
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 3: just give people accurate information, because studies in these situations

630
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,280
Speaker 3: have shown that interventions of just like showing people real

631
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 3: examples of members of the out group, as opposed to

632
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 3: leaving it up to their imagination or you know, using

633
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 3: cherry picked examples from hostile in group media.

634
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: Or outright conspiracy theories exactly oftentimes, like that's the mode

635
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: of thinking that is involved in characterizing the opposing viewpoint.

636
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, just seeing like real accurate representations of who the

637
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 3: out group is, like interacting with each other and seeing

638
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 3: what they're actually like. These types of interventions have been

639
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 3: found to reduce this kind of between group hostility and

640
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 3: perceptions of metaperceptions of hostility within the out group. Oh

641
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 3: are they actually as selfish and hostile as I imagined?

642
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 3: Now that I see them, it seems maybe not.

643
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 1: Yeah.

644
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 3: So that's all I've got on this paper by Norman

645
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 3: and Zaki. But I think that is a very interesting

646
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 3: place to start. It's got there's a lot to work

647
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 3: with there.

648
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I would say in general, for folks

649
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 1: who want more information about ways to become less cynical

650
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: and combat cynical, cynical thought and cynicism in your lives.

651
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: Zaki's work is definitely worth following, and he's out there

652
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: in a lot of places talking about this stuff writing

653
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: about it. Back in twenty twenty two, he did a

654
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: TED talk on the topic, and you can look that

655
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: up wherever you get your TED talks. There's a great

656
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 1: quote in that talk where he says, you might think

657
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: that cynicism is a system upgrade that allows you to

658
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: see who we really are. It's not. It traps us

659
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: in a version of the world we don't want to

660
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: live in and one we don't have to.

661
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 3: That's put very well, and I think that's an important

662
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 3: thing to emphasize. It's like a lot of the literature

663
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 3: that we talked about, I think in part two of

664
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 3: this series, you know, with the cynical genius illusion that

665
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 3: like it's just framed as wisdom, that seeing the world

666
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 3: cynically as being realistic. I mean, maybe in certain scenarios

667
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 3: there are like very corrupt situations where cynicism is a

668
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 3: more accurate diagnosis of them. Most of the time, the

669
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 3: world isn't like that cynicism actually makes you worse at

670
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 3: predicting other people's behavior. It's just like, it's not a

671
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 3: good model of the world. It's not being real. It's

672
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 3: actually living an illusion, living within an illusion that hurts

673
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 3: you exactly.

674
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now, this talk was interesting because I believe it

675
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: was recorded in twenty twenty one, and so you know,

676
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: he definitely ties some of it into the global pandemic

677
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: and talking about the connection between cynicism and disasters, where

678
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: something disastrous can occur some sort of widespread scenario like

679
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: global pandemic, and it can lead to increased cynicism. And

680
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: he also talks a little bit about the danger of

681
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: slipping into what he calls a cynicism perma frost. I

682
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: suppose on the individual level, we're even on like a

683
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: larger societal level where if, like baseline, cynicism grows to

684
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: a certain level, it's just harder and harder for us

685
00:40:58,080 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: to shake it.

686
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: Yes, cynicism is self reinforcing and self perpetuating. To come

687
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 3: back to something from that paper, it is a self

688
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 3: fulfilling prophecy. It makes the world in its image.

689
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: Now, Zaki's twenty twenty four book again his hope for

690
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: cynics the Surprising Science of Human Goodness, and he, of course,

691
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,479
Speaker 1: in this book covers the topic at length, goes through

692
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 1: a lot of what we've been discussing here, but then

693
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: there's added information and insight as well. I recommend picking

694
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: it up if you want to learn more about how

695
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: to combat cynicism, but I want to go through some

696
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: of the ideas that he brings forth that essentially gives

697
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: you sort of a plan of attack. One of the

698
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: first things that he points out is that you have

699
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 1: to recognize the harm of cynicism. And we've been talking

700
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: about this, after all, if you don't understand all the

701
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: mental and physical health as well as social ramifications of

702
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 1: a cynical mindset, you might and I continue to think

703
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: of it as a path of cool and safe detachment,

704
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: like this is what we are, this is the world

705
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: we live in. Realizing first of all that it's harming

706
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 1: you to think this way, that's a good first step.

707
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

708
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, Cynicism is not the safe bet. It's not i

709
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 3: don't know, putting your money in CDs or something. It's like,

710
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 3: it's more kind of like letting it get oily and

711
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 3: leaving it. Next to the fire.

712
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: Yes. The next thing he brings up is embracing hopeful

713
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,439
Speaker 1: skepticism and questioning your assumptions. I really like this one

714
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: because cynicism can I think, come to feel like it's

715
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: a comfortable sweater that you wear, and then if someone

716
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 1: comes around and says, get rid of that sweater, you're

717
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 1: gonna be like, well, this is this is what I wear.

718
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: This is basically my skin at this point. And so

719
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: the idea here is that hopeful skepticism is kind of

720
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 1: something that's going to fit you the same as that sweater,

721
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: but it's not going to constrain your soul, you know,

722
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: So you know, assume better of people in general, but

723
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: also self analyze your cynical ideas, engage in rational skepticism,

724
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: which is to say, seek actual real world evidence for

725
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: your negative opinions and beliefs and pay closer attention to

726
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: what you actually observe in the world.

727
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, So this is coming back to the distinction

728
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 3: we made in the last episode between cynicism and skepticism.

729
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 3: Whereas cynicism is just a bias toward negativity and distrust,

730
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 3: skepticism is trying to award your trust to things on

731
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 3: the basis of whether there's good reason to trust them

732
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 3: or not paying attention to evidence and trying as best

733
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 3: you can to ignore your biases, whereas cynicism is itself

734
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 3: a bias, and.

735
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: If you want to think about this as trust but

736
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 1: confirm fair enough, however you want to think about it.

737
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: It also reminds me a lot of some of the

738
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: anti anxiety techniques I've learned about in recent years, such

739
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: as putting your thoughts on trial and asking yourself questions

740
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 1: like A what am I afraid will happen? And b

741
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: what is likely to happen? Because we can often allow

742
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 1: our negative thought patterns to just run around unchecked in

743
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: our minds, like it's not at the forefront of our

744
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: thought We're trying to do other things and it's just

745
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: in the background like a yapping dog. But if we stop,

746
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: if we identify our thoughts and then we apply reasoning

747
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: to those thoughts, we put those thoughts on trial and

748
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: say like, hey, you stop barking. Now, let's talk about

749
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: why you're barking and what you're barking about. Then you

750
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,919
Speaker 1: can actually begin to make serious headway towards dismissing these

751
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: thoughts or at least diminishing their power. Zaki also recommends

752
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: we conduct again our own behavioral experiments to open the

753
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: door for examples of trust to wander into our lives,

754
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: to practice trust. And this is this is a this

755
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 1: is one that's so big that it's going to sound

756
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: like overly naive just to say it, but focusing on

757
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: the positive. I mean, how many times have you heard that?

758
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: It can it can almost sound like you should smile more.

759
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: He recommends engaging in positive gossip as opposed to just

760
00:44:56,120 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: negative gossip, to making an effort to finding exams semples

761
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 1: in your life and in the world of people doing

762
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 1: good to counteract the other stories. They're going to maybe

763
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: catch your attention more and certainly drift up towards the

764
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: top of the news feed more. In a way, this

765
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 1: reminds me of that famous mister Rogers quote about looking

766
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: for the helpers. You know, I believe he said quote.

767
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: When I was a boy and I would see scary

768
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: things in the news, my mother would say to me,

769
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 1: look for the helpers. You will always find people who

770
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: are helping.

771
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 3: Now, to answer the cynical thought arising in some people's heads,

772
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 3: you might think, in reaction to that, like, Oh, but

773
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 3: isn't that just sort of like turning away from reality, Like,

774
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 3: isn't that not being realistic and wanting to live in

775
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 3: a happy, happy fantasy land.

776
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 1: No.

777
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 3: I think a lot of the research we've looked at

778
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 3: is like this is a strategy for having a more

779
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 3: realistic view of the world. What we have a tendency

780
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 3: toward is an unrealistic view of the world based on

781
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 3: the high salience of negative events. So like you know,

782
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,479
Speaker 3: nineteen positive events and one negative event event, the one

783
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 3: negative event defines our memory of what happened. And so

784
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 3: this is like trying to have a more realistic view

785
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 3: based on the actual real world prevalence of trust and positivity.

786
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I mean it really comes down to,

787
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: like make sure that you have a balanced diet of

788
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: information about people in the world, and that can include

789
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 1: a media diet, it can also certainly include a real

790
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: life diet and how you're interacting with people. Like one

791
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: example from my own family, over the past year, we've

792
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: started watching the YouTube videos of Sam Bentley, who you

793
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: can find on wherever you get your videos. But this

794
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 1: is a guy who highlights positive social and environmental news

795
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 1: from around the world and these are the kind of

796
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: stories that are generally never the headline. And it's not

797
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 1: to say that they should be, and it's not to

798
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: say that you should be only watching this sort of

799
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: new stream and not the other news streams, but you

800
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: know their general positivity and hope fullness can provide a

801
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: very necessary counterbalance to the more cynical darkness that is

802
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: just going to well out of you in response to

803
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 1: the coverage the rest of the coverage out there. And again,

804
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: even if the coverage is fair and you know, on

805
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: the level, I mean, still it's going to feed that

806
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 1: cynicism that is in all of us, that is going

807
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 1: to potentially rise up if we don't keep it in check.

808
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 3: Yes, it is very important to be aware of and

809
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 3: informed about and have a realistic view of threats and

810
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,879
Speaker 3: bad things happening, But if you want to be able

811
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 3: to respond to those in the best way possible, it's

812
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 3: actually important not to let a cynical mindset set in

813
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 3: which it just disempowers you. So it is important to

814
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:48,479
Speaker 3: be aware of threats and dangers and not like ignore them,

815
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 3: to like have them front of mind in a way,

816
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 3: but be able to respond to them realistically and productively.

817
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 3: Rather than just submitting to cynical surrender.

818
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Now, we should be clear that none of this

819
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: is like a one and done solution. There's not like

820
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: a checksheet you can go through and at the end

821
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: of it be like, ah, well, there we go, cynicism defeated.

822
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: In fact, Zaki here of the author in his TED talk,

823
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: drives home that he still struggles with cynicism himself all

824
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: the time. And it is a struggle. You can't completely

825
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: squash the infection of modern cynicism. And that's one of

826
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: the cruel realities of the whole scenario. Cynicism is just

827
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: going to well up again and again, potentially gaining foothold

828
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: each time subconsciously, like it's just in the background growing,

829
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: and it requires deliberate effort generally to counter its growth. So,

830
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: you know, like any kind of maintenance, except its maintenance

831
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: on your outlook on the world, on your psyche and

832
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: your soul. And once again, none of this is a

833
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: proposed transition from cynicism into naivety, or from cynicism into

834
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 1: some sort of unhealthy optimism. It's a transition from an

835
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: unhealthy and ultimately unrealistically bleak outlook on people in the

836
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: world into something that is more balanced, more reasonably optimistic,

837
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: and healthier for you in multiple regards.

838
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, see the world as it really is. Trust when

839
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 3: you can and use those relationships of mutual trust to

840
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 3: make life better.

841
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,439
Speaker 1: All right, Well, we're going to go ahead and wrap

842
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: up these episodes on cynicism right here on an upnote,

843
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: on a hopeful note, on optimistic note, and then maybe

844
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: give you a little homework for ways that you can

845
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: bring less cynicism into your manifested life. We want to

846
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 1: remind everyone out there that Stuff to Blow Your Mind

847
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes

848
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episodes on Wednesdays and

849
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: on Fridays. We set aside most serious concerns just talk

850
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 1: about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

851
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

852
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

853
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

854
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

855
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your

856
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

857
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

858
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

859
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:28,320
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