WEBVTT - It's All Under the Big Top.  James Lindsay Talks to A&G

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<v Speaker 1>From the Abraham Lincoln Radio Studio at the George Washington

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<v Speaker 1>Broadcast Center, Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty Armstrong and Getty Show. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm pretty excited about having James Lindsey on. We've had

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<v Speaker 1>him on a number of times going way way back,

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<v Speaker 1>but he's become a kind of a legend in the

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<v Speaker 1>world of Twitter. And if you don't follow James Lindsay

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<v Speaker 1>on Twitter, you're making a mistake. Author, mathematician. Well then

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<v Speaker 1>let him introduce himself. James Lindsay, Welcome back to the

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<v Speaker 1>Armstrong and Getty Show. Hey, great to be here. Introducing

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<v Speaker 1>myself though, is a tall order. I'm always a bit

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<v Speaker 1>awkward with that. But so before you became like nationally famous,

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<v Speaker 1>you were just a math professor ten years ago. I

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<v Speaker 1>actually left the university in two thousand ten because they

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<v Speaker 1>were shifting to a model to retain students at all

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<v Speaker 1>costs and I just couldn't teach. I didn't see the

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<v Speaker 1>ideological implications of that at the time. I couldn't teach

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<v Speaker 1>under those conditions. So I was a mask professor until

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<v Speaker 1>two ten, and then I was actually a massage therapist

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<v Speaker 1>in the years in between of all things, and your

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<v Speaker 1>politics in general are very liberal. They have been. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a bit, uh, a bit scared of that side

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<v Speaker 1>of the aisle right now, so they're not so much

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<v Speaker 1>right now. Yeah, I would call you, just because I

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<v Speaker 1>follow your twitter feed pretty regularly, a classical liberal as

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<v Speaker 1>opposed to what like a lot of modern you know,

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<v Speaker 1>younger liberal thought is. And we'll get into more of

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<v Speaker 1>that and just a little bit um, but now you

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<v Speaker 1>have become famous for a whole bunch of things. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>when you and uh and and a couple other people

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<v Speaker 1>got together and wrote some bogus papers that you get,

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<v Speaker 1>you submitted to various publications and they got accepted. He

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<v Speaker 1>became famous for that. The what was the what was

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<v Speaker 1>the name of that they got called the grievance studies

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<v Speaker 1>affair on the back end of that, because we decided

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<v Speaker 1>to call all of those things like whether it's critical theory,

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<v Speaker 1>which all everybody has heard of now, or gender studies

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<v Speaker 1>or fat studies which is a thing unbelievably, or disability

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<v Speaker 1>studies they only end in some kind of studies control study.

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<v Speaker 1>We just said that what these these fields are doing

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<v Speaker 1>are stoking grievances that they're trying to you know, dredge

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<v Speaker 1>up or pick at scabs or whatever. Dredge up hurts.

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<v Speaker 1>Pick at scabs make people feel aggrieved against the system,

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<v Speaker 1>against society, and they study grievance in that regard. So

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<v Speaker 1>we called all of this stuff is a catch all

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<v Speaker 1>term grievance studies, and so that got called the Grievance

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<v Speaker 1>Studies Affair. And we wrote twenty fake papers over the

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<v Speaker 1>course of a year, these things. That's like an entire

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<v Speaker 1>academics career usually. Um, seven of them were accepted. We

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<v Speaker 1>still had seven more under review, and the Wall Street

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<v Speaker 1>Journal told on us so and then amazing thing was

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<v Speaker 1>and we've talked about this a lot, and men, if

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<v Speaker 1>you google this if you've never heard it, because you

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<v Speaker 1>guys went so over the top. It was like, just

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<v Speaker 1>just so incredibly over the top. Ye that's a number

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<v Speaker 1>of them still got accepted as legitimate academic not even

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<v Speaker 1>that they've been coming true since. Um. Yeah, we had

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<v Speaker 1>some really crazy over the top ones. We had one

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<v Speaker 1>about whether you can watch people react to the way

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<v Speaker 1>that dogs misbehave in dog parks, particularly sexually with one another,

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<v Speaker 1>and then you can divine something about rape culture from

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<v Speaker 1>watching that. And then we just trained men the way

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<v Speaker 1>that we trained dogs, then we could probably combat rape culture.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a very feminist approach, and that that paper not

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<v Speaker 1>only was accepted and published, but it was given an

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<v Speaker 1>award for Excellence in Scholarship. UM. We we wrote a

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<v Speaker 1>chapter of Hitler's Mind comp and that was accepted by

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<v Speaker 1>a social work journal. UH. In terms of intersectional feminism,

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<v Speaker 1>we had a number of other kind of hilarious papers.

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<v Speaker 1>We had one that we argued that the sport of

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<v Speaker 1>competitive bodybuilding professional bodybuilding is fat phobic because it sees

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<v Speaker 1>building muscle as fundamentally different than building fats, so that

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<v Speaker 1>we need to have a category called fat bodybuilding. That

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<v Speaker 1>was accepted. Got it's hilarious. But we had another one

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<v Speaker 1>and one other paper though we wrote it was that

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<v Speaker 1>you can't use satire to make fun of social justice.

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<v Speaker 1>And this has been born out now that literally Robin D'Angelo,

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<v Speaker 1>who wrote White Fragility previously and now has her new

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<v Speaker 1>book Nice Racism or whatever it's called, she literally just

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<v Speaker 1>did an interview and she should have cited us. She

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<v Speaker 1>made the same argument almost I mean uncannily similar argument

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<v Speaker 1>and citing the same kind of television shows We brought

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<v Speaker 1>up etcetera. As we made in one of our fake papers,

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<v Speaker 1>which was also accepted. Um and hit on the Babylon

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<v Speaker 1>b which is, you know, a satire site on the Internet.

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<v Speaker 1>It's really funny. They got told that, you know, their

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<v Speaker 1>their form of satire against social justice is you know,

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<v Speaker 1>punching down or punching out, I don't know, punching something on.

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<v Speaker 1>So they got told. I mean the papers we wrote

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<v Speaker 1>are coming true, like the people are actually arguing the

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<v Speaker 1>things that we wrote in in satire and and it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's unbelievable. Yeah. One of the reasons I wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>bring up your the Grievance Studies Affairs it is now called,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was with Peter and Helen pluck Rose Um

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<v Speaker 1>is I came across this article the other day that

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<v Speaker 1>I thought you would think it was funny. If you

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<v Speaker 1>haven't seen this yet, this is for real local university.

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<v Speaker 1>My wife went to this university U. C. Davis. Cultural

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<v Speaker 1>Biases Impact Native Fish study calls for end to rough

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<v Speaker 1>fish pejorative and the paradigm that created it. Oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>fish names are racist, now that's right, Yeah, exactly. And

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<v Speaker 1>it gets down and it says the study maintains that

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<v Speaker 1>the term rough fish is pejorative and degrading to native fish.

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<v Speaker 1>That this is that's not that sounds like it's from

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<v Speaker 1>the babylog b but it's an actual, for real article. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>that's exactly the kind of thing that we would have

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<v Speaker 1>wrote to. We wanted to write a paper and we

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<v Speaker 1>just ran out of time and didn't didn't prioritize it

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<v Speaker 1>about how putting things like onions or seasoning and cornbread

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<v Speaker 1>gentrifies cornbread and takes it away from black people and

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<v Speaker 1>perpetuates the racial divide. We're gonna call it a gentle

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<v Speaker 1>sification of cornbreadge a cultuation of American racial division or

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<v Speaker 1>something like that. Uh yeah, it's absurd, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>in the fish are insulted now. And these people actually

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<v Speaker 1>kind of think this way. They really do think that

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<v Speaker 1>the you know, these words, the way we use words

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<v Speaker 1>structures reality. They genuinely think that in crazies power dynamics

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<v Speaker 1>that are going to oppress people. So calling them rough

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<v Speaker 1>fish somehow is going to cause other I don't know people.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess you would think it's not the fish to

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<v Speaker 1>believe something ridiculous like oh, well, you know, maybe I'm

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<v Speaker 1>just a rough person because I'm from another culture. That's

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<v Speaker 1>probably what the argument runs like. It's just absurd, It's

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<v Speaker 1>totally absurd. You and Helen pluck Rose wrote the book

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<v Speaker 1>nonfiction book Cynical Theories, which is very serious and um,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, because we're having a lot of fun with this,

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<v Speaker 1>but this is this is super duper serious in that

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<v Speaker 1>the country is going crazy and in a big chunk

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<v Speaker 1>of the country that for whatever reason gets a hell

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<v Speaker 1>of a lot of attention, has just gone not so

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<v Speaker 1>and and you're trying to bring it back into into

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<v Speaker 1>the world of sanity. And you're now one of the

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<v Speaker 1>if not the leading pushback against critical race theory. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you have a like a shorthand version for what critical

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<v Speaker 1>race theory is for people so they can understand it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I've been working on this for a long time. I

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<v Speaker 1>finally boiled it down. Critical race theory is an almost

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<v Speaker 1>religious belief that the fundamental uh structure of society is

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<v Speaker 1>racism that was created by white people to benefit white people.

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<v Speaker 1>If you believe that religiously and believe that that has

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<v Speaker 1>to be torn down, you know, root and branch, then

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<v Speaker 1>you're probably a critical race theres So if you believe

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<v Speaker 1>that society was built on racism by white people for

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<v Speaker 1>white poblical benefit, and that it's in literally everything you

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<v Speaker 1>can imagine. You're probably a critical race theorist, and I

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<v Speaker 1>love you throwing in the term religion um, and I

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<v Speaker 1>know you're an atheist, but the way it has taken

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<v Speaker 1>on this um because they're there, it's got all the

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<v Speaker 1>home arts of religion, and that there are people that

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<v Speaker 1>if you run a foul of it, it's blasphemy and

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<v Speaker 1>you need to be you know, you need to lose

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<v Speaker 1>your job, you need to have your life ruined because

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<v Speaker 1>you said something that went against the doctrine of critical

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<v Speaker 1>the critical race theory as they see it. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>just it's it's so weird, like I almost can't even

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<v Speaker 1>the particularly when I see these white people, professors or

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<v Speaker 1>college kids or whatever, um beating up on themselves and

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<v Speaker 1>then they talk about it. I'm just I'm such a

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<v Speaker 1>bad person and I need to take a longer look

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<v Speaker 1>at the way that I'm ruining the world. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's just it's it's like a mental illness to me.

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<v Speaker 1>It really is. In fact that the religion thing isn't

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<v Speaker 1>just like oh, it's kind of like one, our parallel

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<v Speaker 1>to it really is one, and people can't quite see

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<v Speaker 1>it because they're like, well, what's the god of the religion.

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<v Speaker 1>They can't like figure out how it works. But the God,

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<v Speaker 1>it turns out his history with a capital H the

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<v Speaker 1>exact same way that Marks looked at history. History has

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<v Speaker 1>a trajectory, History has a purpose. The purpose for Marks

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<v Speaker 1>for history was to get to communism, to get to

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<v Speaker 1>the utopia where we no longer have classes, we no

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<v Speaker 1>longer have a state that the presses anybody. Nobody is

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<v Speaker 1>oppressed because we transcend classes and states and all of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that cause oppression. And history is progressing along

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<v Speaker 1>this pathway by means of revealing contradictions. So if you

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<v Speaker 1>bring up the contradictions and do criticism on them, we

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<v Speaker 1>move history along. And if you're doing that the right way,

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<v Speaker 1>then you're on the right side of history. If you're

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<v Speaker 1>doing it the wrong way, on the wrong side of history.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's God is the trajectory of history that has

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<v Speaker 1>a Heaven on Earth target at the end. And people

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<v Speaker 1>who helped that along are people in the faith. They're

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<v Speaker 1>good people. And the people who hinder that and try

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<v Speaker 1>to so called maintain the status quo are bad people.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is why you see their utter hatred of conservatives,

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<v Speaker 1>utter hatred of of you know, any order, liberal order,

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<v Speaker 1>societal order that's not there's um, their their vision, and

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<v Speaker 1>people don't understand that their God is actually this weird

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<v Speaker 1>belief that tracks all the way back to the early

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<v Speaker 1>nineteenth century in Germany about how history might work. The

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about James Lindsay. Um, I'm looking at his

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<v Speaker 1>Twitter feed, which is a fantastic following. Underneath it says, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>not New York Times bestselling author Math PhD, founder of

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<v Speaker 1>New Discourses, a political against totalitarianism and supremacy of all

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<v Speaker 1>kinds for freedom, and you're definitely one of the best thinkers,

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<v Speaker 1>writers and speakers on this topic that I've come across

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<v Speaker 1>anywhere in America. Thank god. Um, what do you mean

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<v Speaker 1>by not New York Times bestselling author? Oh so cynical

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<v Speaker 1>Theories was Actually it made it onto the Wall Street

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<v Speaker 1>Journals best seller listen Man of the publisher Weekly best

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<v Speaker 1>seller list, and they don't have a few different best

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<v Speaker 1>sellers lists, but the New York Times didn't put it

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<v Speaker 1>on theirs. And so we dug into this because we had,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the book scan or whatever the sales numbers,

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<v Speaker 1>And it turns out that we actually sold enough copies

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<v Speaker 1>of Cynical Theories in the first week to where we

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<v Speaker 1>should have been on the list, and in fact, we

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<v Speaker 1>sold three times as many as the last two books

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<v Speaker 1>on the list. But for some reason, they deemed that

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<v Speaker 1>it didn't reflect the organic buying habits of Americans and

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<v Speaker 1>therefore did not put it on the New York Times

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<v Speaker 1>best selling list. So bestseller everywhere but the New York Times,

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<v Speaker 1>which snubbed us for some reason. Uh, and I guess

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<v Speaker 1>that's their business. Did not reflect the organic buying habits

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<v Speaker 1>of Americans. Okay, yeah, whatever the hell that I see.

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<v Speaker 1>It didn't pass your sniff test. Whatever the hell that means.

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<v Speaker 1>How how difficult is your life? I've wondered this a

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<v Speaker 1>lot because I follow you regularly, Like I'm a fanboy

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<v Speaker 1>of James Lindsay. I gotta admitted, um, how difficult is

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<v Speaker 1>your life? Gotten? Taking all this on? I mean, how

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<v Speaker 1>what's your what's your email? Feed? Your your hate mail?

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<v Speaker 1>You're all that sort of stuff, Like you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>get a little bit of hate mail. I don't get

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<v Speaker 1>a tremendous amount Uh. The difficulty is the volume of

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<v Speaker 1>you know, whether it's fan mail, it's mostly questions. People

0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:52.480
<v Speaker 1>are asking me mail or can you help me with

0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.600
<v Speaker 1>this mail? You know, I get so much request for that,

0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.040
<v Speaker 1>that's very difficult. The harder part, you know, if we

0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:00.480
<v Speaker 1>got into the kind of psychological side of it's like

0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:02.440
<v Speaker 1>I live and you know, they think if you stare

0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.440
<v Speaker 1>into the Abyss, the Abyss stairs back, I live in

0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.360
<v Speaker 1>the Abyss. It's like I went into the Abyss and

0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.120
<v Speaker 1>send letters to the world, and so it's like, you know,

0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:15.840
<v Speaker 1>I read the most negative, evil, poisonous stuff literally all day,

0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.240
<v Speaker 1>try to make sense of it, try to understand it

0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.480
<v Speaker 1>and try to communicate with other people, and that actually

0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:30.200
<v Speaker 1>is pretty exhausting. Um, but everything else is great. You

0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:32.920
<v Speaker 1>live in the Abyss. Everything else is great. Can you

0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:38.800
<v Speaker 1>explain the current clown controversy that's going on around me? Um? Yeah, so,

0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.679
<v Speaker 1>I mean lots of people have been using the mean

0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:44.400
<v Speaker 1>clown world to describe what's going on, right, and so

0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.760
<v Speaker 1>this is everybody kind of gets it. It's like these

0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:49.400
<v Speaker 1>people are in some regard that are pushing these crazy

0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:51.840
<v Speaker 1>ideas that don't attest the reality or somehow kind of clowns.

0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:54.599
<v Speaker 1>And then you know, there's Nicole Hannah Jones at the

0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.439
<v Speaker 1>New York Times. She's got her big red hair, and

0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:00.920
<v Speaker 1>people have noticed that that looks kind of like clownish.

0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:02.560
<v Speaker 1>And so the other day I saw a picture of her.

0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:04.440
<v Speaker 1>She was all proud of herself, was on Twitter. So

0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.360
<v Speaker 1>I took the picture and I just put a clown

0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:11.640
<v Speaker 1>emoji period send tweet with a picture, and people went

0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:14.680
<v Speaker 1>berserk because I'm just I call all of these people clowns.

0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:16.200
<v Speaker 1>I call you know, it doesn't matter who they are,

0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.040
<v Speaker 1>it's not just that her hair or whatever. I call

0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:19.960
<v Speaker 1>all these people clowns all the time. I refer to

0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.880
<v Speaker 1>clown world all the time. And so she went berserk

0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:25.599
<v Speaker 1>and said that I was attacking her appearance. Thousands of

0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:27.720
<v Speaker 1>people went nuts and got angry at me for attacking

0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.800
<v Speaker 1>a black woman's appearance, which well, I mean, it's coincidental

0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:33.679
<v Speaker 1>in my opinion, because I called all these people clowns.

0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:35.240
<v Speaker 1>So then they went berserk. And so then I came

0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.240
<v Speaker 1>up with a parody, as I tend to do, like

0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.400
<v Speaker 1>the fake papers, and I started talking about critical clown

0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.560
<v Speaker 1>theory and took critical race theory, took out race, put

0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:48.280
<v Speaker 1>in clown and just wrote their words with you know,

0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.720
<v Speaker 1>slight changes and it just all fits to try to

0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:52.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, point out that you know, I said that

0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:57.520
<v Speaker 1>the um Nicole and of Jones had clown fragility on

0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.439
<v Speaker 1>seat of white fragility. Her clown ary was needed doll,

0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.800
<v Speaker 1>and she was reacted with a series of rhetorical maneuvers

0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.960
<v Speaker 1>to try to you know, lash out or whatever. I

0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:09.959
<v Speaker 1>did this the kind of the whole thing, and people

0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.400
<v Speaker 1>loved it, um because they get the satire, they get

0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.800
<v Speaker 1>the party, and again the clown the world thinks sticks.

0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:17.760
<v Speaker 1>You'll notice on my Twitter feed that I if you

0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.400
<v Speaker 1>follow me, that I put clown emojis on basically all

0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:24.000
<v Speaker 1>of this stuff, like Anthony Fauci clown, he's not a

0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:27.680
<v Speaker 1>black woman. Clown clowns all the way down, because the

0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.760
<v Speaker 1>stuff they're saying is not attached to reality. It's like

0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.240
<v Speaker 1>a circus. It's you know, it's all under the big top.

0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.680
<v Speaker 1>And uh, it's just kind of a meme I'm playing

0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.120
<v Speaker 1>with and people got really upset when I attatched it

0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:43.200
<v Speaker 1>to herves. Do you have any concern that Twitter cancels

0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.880
<v Speaker 1>at some point, because that is your biggest, biggest, you know,

0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:48.840
<v Speaker 1>megaphone you've got. That's true. They've they've shot across my

0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.720
<v Speaker 1>bow twice once for something. I I think that they

0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:54.480
<v Speaker 1>were wrong, but at least I know what I did,

0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:56.840
<v Speaker 1>and it can kind of see they're made up reasons

0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.400
<v Speaker 1>and clown world for it, uh once with no explanation. However,

0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.440
<v Speaker 1>so where I got suspended for you know, twelve or

0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:05.080
<v Speaker 1>twenty four hours or whatever, so they haven't taken any

0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.320
<v Speaker 1>serious action against me with that particular clown thing. I

0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.080
<v Speaker 1>got a number of emails from Twitter saying we investigated

0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.480
<v Speaker 1>you and we found no violation and so well, okay,

0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:20.280
<v Speaker 1>apparently you're still allowed to call public figures clown on Twitter. Awesome.

0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.080
<v Speaker 1>We're talking with James Lindsay and unfortunately we got we

0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.200
<v Speaker 1>gotta let him go. I could talk to you absolutely

0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.200
<v Speaker 1>all day long, and the main reason I wanted to

0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:29.200
<v Speaker 1>have you on is to push people to follow you

0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.920
<v Speaker 1>on Twitter to read your books, because you're you're the

0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.120
<v Speaker 1>best voice out there I think on all this craziness,

0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:38.400
<v Speaker 1>and I really appreciate the effort do you put on

0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.560
<v Speaker 1>on a regular basis, Hey, I appreciate that. Thank you

0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:44.800
<v Speaker 1>so much, James Lindsay, Ladies and gentlemen, and we'll link

0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:47.280
<v Speaker 1>him at our website Armstrong and getty dot com, and

0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:48.680
<v Speaker 1>I'll I tweet him out all the time.