1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 3: My name is Robert Land, and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: This is the third episode and what I believe is 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 2: going to be a four part series about dream mystique, 6 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 2: dream culture. We're going to have one more episode that 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 2: is going to focus on Japanese dream. 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 3: Culture and finally get to that monster that is the 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 3: reason we started looking at this. 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, we've been chasing after that monster and ultimately 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 2: we will chase it across the sea and discuss its 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 2: form and function. In this one, we're going to get 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: more properly into the main focus of the Dreaming Mind 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 2: of The End of the Main World by Lynn A. Struve, 15 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 2: which we've been referring to in these episodes. This was 16 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 2: published in twenty nineteen by the University of Hawaii Press. Naturally, 17 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: we're not going to cover everything in that but rather, 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: you know, highlight some of the key points, some interesting 19 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: bits that stand out and leave you to explore the 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: book yourself if you want to go deeper in on it. 21 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 3: But in the. 22 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: Previous episodes two episodes, we we mostly discussed other dream 23 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 2: cultures from around the world highlighted lighted by Stroove as 24 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 2: being sort of hot beds of focus on the potential 25 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 2: of dreams to impact our daily lives. 26 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, particularly times and places when a lot of dream 27 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 3: writing was produced. A lot of literature that still comes 28 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 3: down to us, whether that's individual like from journals and 29 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 3: diaries and letters and stuff, or you know, published works 30 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 3: that concern dreams and often invest kind of some significance 31 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 3: beyond just psychological curiosity in dreams. 32 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, because there's always going to be some sort of 33 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 2: dream culture in play. There's going to be you know, 34 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: dream or are a reality among all us, you know, 35 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's a human, universal, human experience. 36 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 2: We're going to have these strange visions, mundane visions, comforting visions, 37 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: disturbing visions, or traumatizing visions come to us in the night. 38 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: It is the you know, we talk so much, you know, 39 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: on the show, but in the culture in general about 40 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: you know, visions brought on by things that are less 41 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 2: every day you know that be it some sort of 42 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 2: a you know, peculiar encounter or the use of some 43 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 2: sort of substance that creates a vision. But the thing 44 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: about dreams is the dreams open up the door to 45 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 2: visions pretty much every night, like it's just with with 46 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: regular frequency, and something is always going to be made 47 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 2: of that in a given culture. But these are those 48 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: periods of times where they really went all in, especially 49 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 2: among like the the literary, you know, the the upper 50 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: echeligne of the like the theological branch of a given culture. 51 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 3: Now, in the introduction to Struve's book about the dream 52 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 3: arc in the End of the Ming Dynasty in China, 53 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 3: she does talk about how, basically like any time and 54 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 3: place she has examined, there seems to be a trichotomy 55 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 3: of explanations for dreams. There's always sort of in the mix, 56 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 3: a way of saying, well, that dream is just sort 57 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 3: of a natural phenomenon. Maybe it's a result of you 58 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 3: digesting a bit of mustard or cheese. There is a 59 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 3: way of saying that the dream is given to you 60 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 3: by a demonic force or bad spiritual entity. And there's 61 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 3: a way of saying that a dream is given to 62 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 3: you by a heavenly force or it's some kind of inspiration, 63 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 3: it's a positive supernatural gift, and that kind of does permeate. 64 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 3: You can find those three explanations all around the world 65 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 3: at basically all times in places. 66 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, God, devil or potato, and I guess at times 67 00:03:58,280 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 2: that you know, you may lean more towards one of 68 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 2: the other, though I guess seems to be the case 69 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: that you know, all three are going to be in 70 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 2: play to some degree, because I mean, how all in 71 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: can you go on say the devil or evil spirit 72 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: understanding of dreams without having to sort of release the 73 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 2: pressure a little bit and saying, you know, not all 74 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 2: of these are the devil, some of these are just 75 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: a potato, and you know, maybe some of these are 76 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: actually useful as well. Now, one thing I wanted to 77 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 2: touch on here at the start is coming back to 78 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 2: something we discussed towards the end of the last episode, 79 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 2: is the idea that when you have a given culture 80 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 2: that really like opens the gates on dreaming, that that says, 81 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: in one way or another, dreams matter, Dreams are important, 82 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: and we all have access to them. You know this, 83 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: this can open the floodgate, and this can perhaps require 84 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 2: some individuals to sort of move in and individuals and 85 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: positions of power, et cetera to sort of say, well, 86 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 2: let's let's reconsider that or let's let's maybe think about 87 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: what this particular dream means. And for the main candidate 88 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 2: here would be anytime dreams are interpreted as being the 89 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: will or revelations of a God, or God's dreams as 90 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 2: revelations of the future. 91 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 3: The main context in which this came up was our 92 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,239 Speaker 3: discussion of the role of dreams in early Quakerism, where 93 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 3: a lot of meetings of the religious Society of Friends 94 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 3: and publications by this fledgling religious group would discuss dreams 95 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 3: people had as prophetic revelations from God. But of course 96 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 3: that gives any individual person a lot of power and 97 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 3: authority to say like, oh, I had a dream. This 98 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 3: might be from God, and the dream could say anything. 99 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:53,239 Speaker 3: It might say something really destabilizing to your social group, 100 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 3: or it might give a kind of really destabilizing political exhortation, 101 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 3: maybe we need to do something that could get us 102 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 3: into trouble with the authorities. So yeah, you had to 103 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 3: have a kind of dream police, as it were, Like 104 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 3: leaders of the early Quakers ended up kind of steering 105 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 3: dream interpretation and selective publication of dreams to rock the 106 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 3: boat less essentially, to to be like, oh, let's not 107 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 3: let's not do anything too crazy. Now, how about we 108 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 3: just interpret these dreams as you know, applying to individual 109 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 3: moral behavior rather than having any kind of radical, broader 110 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 3: social or political implications. 111 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so there are There are two examples from 112 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: from Chinese history and Chinese considerations of dream that I 113 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: want to share here from from her book that tie 114 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: into this. The first is an example that far precedes 115 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,799 Speaker 2: the Ning dynasty. Struve shares an account of one Zao 116 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 2: xi Lang, a disciple of the great polymath Tao hong 117 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 2: Jing of the fifth and sixth centuries BCE. So hong 118 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 2: Jing insisted that most of his disciples visions. This is 119 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 2: the man that had various visions and would write about 120 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 2: these visions. We're waking visions. These were visions he's having 121 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: during the day, you know, the kind of thing that 122 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: we might think of as being brought on by like 123 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: meditation or something of that nature. But Zao's own dream records, 124 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: it seems, are just increasingly dream focused if you look 125 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: at them in chronological order, until all of his alleged 126 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 2: visitations with Dallas deities are conducted via dream as opposed 127 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: to waking visions of one sort or another, and he 128 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 2: ultimately believes himself summoned to the celestial realm, so he 129 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: intentionally overdoses on poison in order to obey those summons. 130 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 2: So ultimately kind of a haunting tale, but one of 131 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 2: these where you can see like this push and pull, 132 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 2: the one individual pulled strongly into the dream visions, and 133 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 2: this kind of attempted course correction, either course correction or 134 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: or some attempt to sort of alter the account a 135 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: little bit and say, well, you know, actually they weren't 136 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 2: all dream visions. Most of them were or are waking visions, 137 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: and those are ultimately more important. And this will become 138 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 2: essential when we talk a little bit more about this 139 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 2: idea of what dreams represent and what the waking world 140 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: represents in sort of the larger Chinese cosmology. Now, she 141 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: also shares an interesting situation concerning a prominent Jesuit missionary 142 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: to China by the name of Guglio Alini who lived 143 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 2: fifteen eighty two through sixteen forty nine, and this individual 144 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,239 Speaker 2: enacted a strict policy of rationalistic dream and sleep interpretation 145 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 2: among Christian followers in China at the time. In other words, 146 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 2: the idea was no divine dreams even for the devout, 147 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: and one reason for this would seem to be that 148 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: the people of maritime Fujan Province were said to have 149 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: a strong zeal for the power of dream, very strong 150 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: dream culture, and that this particular missionary had to contend 151 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 2: with quote, a virtual cult of sainthood concerning the dream 152 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: accounts of a convert to Christianity named zang Shi. It 153 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 2: would seem that Jesuit records of this time insisted that 154 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: these dreams occurred during periods of ill health, to further 155 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: push them aside into that dismissable realm of dreams as 156 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 2: byproduct or residue, the potato realm, as opposed to the 157 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: divine realm. Though of course this is of course again 158 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 2: a Jesuit missionary. So this is an outsider with an 159 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: outside faith that has been introduced into China. It's contending 160 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 2: like a with a local indigenous dream culture. 161 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 3: Well right, yeah, So as a Catholic missionary, he would 162 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 3: want to be presenting a sort of a stable theology 163 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 3: to people. It's like, this is what comes from the 164 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 3: Bible and from the Church, and you can't like change 165 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 3: anything by having a dream and getting a new revelation 166 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 3: from God. It's all already here for you. 167 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, obviously, the Catholic Church is kind of 168 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 2: like the poster child of top down religion, top down theology, 169 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: and historically they have not reacted well to new revelations 170 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 2: among the lower tiers. Now, to move on to the 171 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 2: Ming Dynasty period, the late Ming Dynasty period in particular, 172 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 2: that's the main focus of the book, it's probably necessary 173 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: to add just a little historical context. So the Ming 174 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 2: Dynasty was an imperial dynasty of China ruled by the 175 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: Han people. They had overthrown the Mongol led Yuan dynasty 176 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 2: in thirteen sixty eight and would ultimately succumb to the 177 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,839 Speaker 2: Manchu led Qing dynasty in sixteen forty four. The Qing 178 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,719 Speaker 2: Dynasty would be the last imperial dynasty of China. And 179 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 2: so Struve is dealing mostly with the Late Ming Empire, 180 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: this period that she describes as a time of disintegration, 181 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 2: the empires in decline, it's threatened and ultimately overthrown by outsiders. 182 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: And then also she's dealing with the immediate period thereafter, 183 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 2: the early Qing dynasty, in which you have all of 184 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 2: these people who have the you know, the Han people 185 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 2: within this dynasty who have gone through all this change 186 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 2: and are dealing at times with the trauma all of 187 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: that change. And incidentally, she also gets we're not gonna 188 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 2: have time to get into any of this, but she 189 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: has a number of mentions of the writings of pousong Ling, 190 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 2: who wrote the Strange Tales from the Chinese studio. He's 191 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: born shortly after the fall of the Ming dynasty in 192 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 2: that period of transition. So if you're interested in pusong Ling, 193 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 2: this is also a book we're picking up. 194 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 3: Referenced frequently on this show. 195 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, pusong Ling a lot of weird tales he shares 196 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 2: concerning everything from ghosts and trolls and goblins to you know, 197 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 2: at times just kind of there's more than one sort 198 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 2: of body story thrown in there as well. Now, other 199 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 2: key factors during this time period, according to Struve, she says, 200 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 2: there is a trend toward moral ethical subjectivity in spiritual exploration. 201 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: There was a mounting dysfunctionality of the state system in 202 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 2: political culture, which meant that you had a lot of 203 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: individuals that would you know, otherwise have been focusing their 204 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: energy on advancing themselves and applying themselves in official state positions, 205 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 2: but they're unable to so they're left to engage personal projects, 206 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 2: they're left to indulge inward gazing in this pursuit of 207 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 2: dream and fed by all of this, there was also 208 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: a general questioning of the rationalism and emotional control that 209 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: was part of sort of the dominant mean philosophy and 210 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 2: politics up to that point. And just in general again 211 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: the line of one dynasty and the pending emergence of 212 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 2: a new dynasty, there's this growing sense of a loss 213 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:10,839 Speaker 2: of control for many, she says, a sense of uncertainty 214 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 2: that leads to an increased focus on cosmic answers and 215 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 2: inward reflections, both of which, as we've been discussing, are 216 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: sort of universally sometimes sought out through the world of dreams, 217 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: and this is very much part of dream culture in 218 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 2: China of the day as well. Now Streff discusses the 219 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 2: legacy of Chinese dream interpretation at length, going back well 220 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 2: before this period, of course, into shamanistic traditions of old, 221 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 2: similar to some of what we discussed concerning the Ottoman 222 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 2: dream culture, but she explains that the understanding of dreaming 223 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 2: at its most basic and Chinese tradition was considered in 224 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 2: terms of course of yen and yang and in two 225 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: sort of broad ways of looking at it. So, in 226 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 2: one school of thought, which she calls the partheid model, 227 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: wakefulness is the Yang state and sleep or dream is 228 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 2: the Yen state. So it's in the yen state that 229 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 2: one's two souls, the terrestrial soul and the aerial soul, 230 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 2: become disconnected, allowing the end state of the soul to 231 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: explore without anchor of the yang. And if these two 232 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: souls don't recouple upon waking, well, then you die. And 233 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: thus there's this long standing connection between sleep and death 234 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: in Chinese thought, I guess I'm assuming also coupled with 235 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 2: the with the obvious observation that when we sleep it's 236 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: kind of like we're dead. Also in dream, it's said 237 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: via this model, the drifting soul might encounter quote, avatars 238 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: of the forces of justice and fate that one would 239 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: not normally encounter in the mundane world, but you might 240 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 2: encounter them in dream, and therefore you might suffer ill 241 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 2: dreams and nightmares as punishments. 242 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 3: But basically the idea that when the material like the 243 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 3: grounded soul and the aerial souls separate during sleep, the 244 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 3: aerial soul can kind of wander and have encounters with 245 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 3: other like ghosts or ancestors or other beings. 246 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and also just more broadly, that the waking world 247 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 2: is the yang world and the dream world is the 248 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: yen world. But then this other model, which she calls 249 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 2: the phasic model, it takes a different approach to yin 250 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: and yang and dreams and wakefulness. In this one, the 251 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: idea is that a sleeping individual will cycle in and 252 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: out of different phases of yin and yang throughout one's 253 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 2: sleep at night, and this would be in the form 254 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 2: of dreamlessness and dreaming. So in this what goes on 255 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 2: in our sleep mirror mirrors just all the other patterns 256 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: in our life, just a pattern of yin and yang, 257 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 2: and you know, and ultimately you want these to be 258 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: in balance with each other. This school of thoughts, she writes, 259 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: stress natural causes of dreams and nightmares rather than the supernatural, 260 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 2: so not saying that it was just all potato, but 261 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 2: leaned more potato than the other model. 262 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 3: That's interesting because obviously it mirrors the true fact that 263 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 3: we don't dream the entire time we're asleep, that there 264 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 3: are specific phases of sleep during which we dream or 265 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 3: during which dreaming is heightened. 266 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also interesting concerning some other things that come 267 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 2: up in the book about just thinking about different ways 268 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: that a night's sleep may go. And indeed this sort 269 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: of idea that some positive that you could have an 270 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: entire night's sleep that is completely dream free, that you 271 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: can avoid dreams entirely, or you can avoid all sorts 272 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: of one type of dream in favor of another. 273 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well that brings up another way of thinking 274 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 3: about dreams that is different than I think anything we've 275 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 3: discussed in this series so far. We focused a lot 276 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 3: on people attaching various kinds of supernatural, revelatory or prophetic 277 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 3: power to the contents of their dreams. But you know, 278 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 3: another thing that seems to be fairly common in the 279 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 3: world is just having beliefs about ways to have a 280 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 3: good dream, like when you want to have a good 281 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 3: dream as opposed to a bad one. 282 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think this is like a lot of 283 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 2: what's going on, and particularly in the Chinese example, is 284 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 2: occurring again among the elites, among the intellectual elites and 285 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 2: theological elites of the day, and it gets, you know, 286 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,239 Speaker 2: it gets rather complex. But I think like when you 287 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 2: get down to some of the more like shamanistic roots 288 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 2: of all of this and sort of like the average 289 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 2: individuals like sort of base understanding of dreams. You kind 290 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 2: of come down to those some of the like the 291 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 2: really key questions. And obviously one question is is this 292 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 2: real or is it not? And if it's not real, 293 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 2: where does it come from? If it is real, where 294 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 2: does it come from? And what does it mean? That 295 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 2: sort of thing. But then also like coming down if 296 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: you ask the average individual just on the street, hey, 297 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: what do you think about dreams? Even today? They might 298 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 2: be like, I don't know, you know, dreams or dreams whatever. 299 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: But if you ask them what do you think about 300 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: what is your opinion on nightmares? Most people are going 301 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 2: to say I don't care for them. I would prefer 302 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 2: not to have them. And so there's I think there's 303 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 2: always going to be that level of a dream culture 304 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 2: as well, like can we do something about these nightmares? 305 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 2: I mean, this is nice that you have all these 306 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: thoughts about like where these are coming from, But I 307 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 2: would tell me how to not have the nightmare. 308 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 3: Whether Scrooge is being tortured by the actual ghost of 309 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 3: Jacob Marley or it is just the bit of mustard 310 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 3: or the crust of bread that is causing it. Either way, 311 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 3: it is unpleasant. 312 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is I'm sure preaching to the 313 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 2: choir universally among our listeners here. But you know, nightmares suck. 314 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: They disrupt your night's sleep, and by disrupting your night's sleep, 315 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 2: you're gonna inevitably disrupt your waking day to follow, not 316 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 2: only like on a physiological level, but also a potentially 317 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 2: on a mental or emotional level. And we have to 318 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 2: bear in mind that like bad dreams and nightmares can 319 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: also be intensified via stress and trauma in life. So 320 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 2: you know, it's like this boulder rolling down a hill, 321 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 2: and I think we can all, you know, understand that 322 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 2: that desire to want to stop that boulder or to 323 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 2: diminish it somehow before it lands into us. And that's 324 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 2: without even getting into some of the more extreme examples 325 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 2: of Paris on the night terrors and so forth, Like 326 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 2: just sort of like normal nightmares can be horrible. They're 327 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 2: horrible for us and then certainly as parents, you know, 328 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 2: they're horrible when you're having to deal with someone, especially 329 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: a young child, but also to other loved ones when 330 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 2: they're experiencing them, because there's this kind of kind of 331 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 2: helplessness to it, right, Like you can't protect them in 332 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 2: their dreams. So we'll get back to this general topic 333 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 2: of like traditions and customs regarding the prevention of bad 334 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 2: dreams and sort of opening the door for more positive dreams. 335 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 2: But this also brings up something that I'm sure a 336 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 2: number of you have been thinking about listening to these episodes, 337 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: and you've probably been wondering why it hasn't come up yet, 338 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: and that is the topic of so called lucid dreaming. 339 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 2: Lucid dreaming is, of course, you know, the idea that 340 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: you can take the wheel of your dreams, that within 341 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 2: your dream you can realize you are dreaming and say, hey, 342 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to flip the script here, I'm going to 343 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: do whatever I want. 344 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 3: Essentially, it's interesting because it often seems to hinge on 345 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 3: the question of whether you can realize when you are dreaming. 346 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, it's something that my understanding from 347 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 2: having you know, discussed on the show in the bast 348 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 2: is that it's something you got to work at. People 349 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 2: do apply themselves to it, and people do report results. 350 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 2: I've never applied myself to it, and therefore the few 351 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: times that I do have lucid moments in my dreams 352 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: where I realize that I am dreaming. I immediately follow 353 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 2: out of it. So I'll have a dream where I'm like, hey, 354 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 2: this is a dream, and then I'll be like, what 355 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: did I just think? I don't remember, and then I'm 356 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 2: back under the spell of the dream, and this will 357 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 2: happen the times that it's happened like this, It'll just 358 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 2: happen like several times in a row, and I'm unable 359 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 2: to shake the delusion of the dream. 360 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,479 Speaker 3: I think I've shared this on the show before, but 361 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 3: my experience is every time in a dream I start 362 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 3: to wonder if I'm dreaming or not, I think, no, 363 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:32,479 Speaker 3: this is definitely real. It seems to imply I don't know. 364 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 3: I wonder if that means I'm especially prone to delusions. 365 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:36,479 Speaker 3: I'm not sure. 366 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard for me to like in the dream. 367 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 2: I'm always like, I bring my own like waking sort 368 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,719 Speaker 2: of cautiousness to the dream. So I was thinking earlier 369 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 2: about like substances within dreams, drugs within dreams, for example, 370 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 2: which I've read some wonderful fictional treatments of this before. 371 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 2: But the times where I've been offered, say a drug 372 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: within it. I'm always like, no, thank you, I don't 373 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 2: know what's in that will I will politely decline, And 374 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 2: then afterwards I'm like, well that, why didn't. It's a 375 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 2: dream like that, this is the place to try strange substances, 376 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: the dream world. But no, I don't realize it's a dream, 377 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 2: so I don't give it a go. 378 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 3: Dream cocaine can't hurt you. 379 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 2: So, as we've discussed on the show before, the term 380 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: itself lucid dreaming originates in nineteen thirteen with Dutch psychiatrist 381 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 2: Frederick van Eaton, but he was hardly the first person 382 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 2: to recognize that the dreamer can become aware that they 383 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 2: are in a dream and then influence the shape of 384 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 2: that dream. That this basic idea had been written about 385 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 2: in Europe for centuries, and in ancient times you have 386 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 2: the likes of Saint Augustine, Galen, Aristotle. They all wrote 387 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 2: about it. In Asia of The concept was also understood 388 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: among ancient Hindus and early Buddhists, and so this was 389 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 2: certainly recognized in the dream culture of the Latening period 390 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 2: as well. Interestingly, we've only mentioned lucid dreaming once in 391 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 2: the book, but it's still notable. In one section, she 392 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: is discussing leang ying Ming, an important Neo Confucian thinker 393 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 2: of the Ming dynasty. He is said to have followed 394 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 2: a Taoist practice of deep meditation that minimized both sleep 395 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 2: and dream. And I suppose in this we see a 396 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 2: reflection of that idea that you know, there is a 397 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 2: threat posed by the irrational dreams. You know, this is 398 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 2: these are to be avoided because this is where I 399 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: do not have like intellectual and emotional control. So I 400 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 2: take it to mean he was just maybe not a 401 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 2: big fan of dreams anyway. He wrote very little about 402 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 2: dreams himself, but he was a big proponent of something 403 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,959 Speaker 2: known as the lug shi, which Struve describes as the 404 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 2: infant mind, an innate sense of right and wrong. That 405 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 2: you can think of this as a kind of innate conscious. 406 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 2: This is infected if you put it into translators. This 407 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: is how it'll be translated in the modern sense. It's 408 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 2: kind of a it's your conscious. It's you know, this 409 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 2: innate sense of right and wrong. And it's said to 410 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 2: be present even when we are infants. So it's something 411 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: that is not you don't learn in books or school. 412 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 2: It is something sort of innate and pure within the human. 413 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 3: Psyche conscience without the law. 414 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, which, and where it gets interesting with concerning dreams 415 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 2: is that Youngming insists that the lang Gie is active 416 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 2: all the time in both waking and sleeping, making sure 417 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 2: that any dreams you have are going to be prescient 418 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 2: rather than mere delusions of dream sleep. I guess you 419 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 2: would maybe agree that the reason I'm turning down the 420 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 2: dream cocaine is because of my lang Gee or some 421 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 2: semblance of my lang Gi. 422 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 3: I don't know. 423 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 2: But more importantly, to his teachings, specifically, it was meant 424 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: that the core of spiritual truth was not something limit 425 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 2: to intellectuals, but something available to everyone from birth. And therefore, 426 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 2: you know, it had wide popularity and would be the 427 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: kind of the idea that you know, non intellectuals would 428 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 2: also gravitate towards. But here's where the lucid dreaming comes. 429 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 2: In one of his contemporaries, lou Honkshin wrote of a 430 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 2: dream he had as a young boy to demonstrate the 431 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 2: importance of Langzi, and in particular, this account involves his 432 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 2: five year old self channeling the Langhi in order to 433 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 2: overcome the delusions of dream and instead lucid dream his 434 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 2: way out of it. And Struve also says that this 435 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 2: was a way to illustrate the importance of Buddha Dallas 436 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 2: thought even among less radical followers. There's a full account 437 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: of the dream in the book, and the dream itself 438 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: is pretty simple. It's not you know, it's not crazy. 439 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: He dreams himself on a wide, busy street full of 440 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 2: carts and people, and there, I guess the one like 441 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: implied dream world aspect of it is that the mansions 442 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 2: towering overhead are kind of dizzying, so I'm imagining something 443 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 2: more like times Square as opposed to something that would 444 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 2: actually be appropriate for the time period. But then he 445 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 2: realizes it's all a dream, and he starts shouting at 446 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: all the people, saying something along the lines of hey, dummies, 447 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: don't you know this is a dream, And they don't listen. 448 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 2: They just kind of shrug it off and keep doing 449 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 2: their things. So he laughs at them, he claps his hands, 450 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 2: and he wakes up, and then as an adult, he 451 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 2: goes out. You know. In retelling this, he also uses 452 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 2: this to sort of compare it to the waking world 453 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 2: as well, which of course, is a common motif. 454 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 3: This reminds me of one of my favorite Twilight Zone episodes, 455 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 3: when we talked about in a Halloween show we did 456 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 3: a few years back, where there is a character who 457 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 3: keeps insisting to everyone around him that he is dreaming 458 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 3: and they only exist right now because they are in 459 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 3: his dream, and whenever he wakes up, they're going to 460 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 3: cease to be, so it's in their interest for him 461 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 3: him to keep dreaming. And it turns out he's like 462 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 3: on death row about to be executed for a crime. 463 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,959 Speaker 3: He's like, don't execute me, because then you will no 464 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 3: longer exist. 465 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that was a good one. Yeah, we did. 466 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 2: We discussed that in one of the Anthology of Horror episodes, 467 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 2: I believe. 468 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 3: But hang Jan doesn't make that case to the people 469 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 3: around him. 470 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 4: He's just like, you don't know, you're in a dream right. 471 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 3: Now. 472 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 2: To bring things back into like sort of wider consideration 473 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 2: of dreams during the ming period, again, there's this idea 474 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: that waking is yang and dream as yin only in 475 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 2: the waking state do you have like true clarity and penetration. 476 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 2: Though with a number of caveats, you know, we get 477 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 2: into this idea, like we say in the Three Varieties 478 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,479 Speaker 2: of Dreams, and I saw these discussed elsewhere in Strew's 479 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 2: book with the confusion Take on Everything, idea of true 480 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 2: dreams or dreamless dreams, those non delusional dreams which are 481 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 2: said to arise spontaneously versus strange dreams or nightmares, which 482 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 2: I think we can compare to the infernal interpretation. And 483 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 2: then stirrings which arise in response to life experiences, which 484 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 2: of course is clearly the potato category. But by the 485 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,959 Speaker 2: seventeenth century there is also this idea that in sleep, 486 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 2: some part of the dream is allowed to wander like 487 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 2: an unbridled horse, a horse that is still tame, though, 488 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 2: and may report back to the body with wisdom. Again 489 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 2: touching into some of these ideas we've discussed already about 490 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 2: half the soul wandering and having these encounters, opening the 491 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 2: possibility for divine visions and so forth. S True summarizes 492 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: that all of this begins with a general trend towards 493 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 2: subjectivity and neo Confucianism, but then it gains more momentum 494 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 2: through Dallast and Buddhist thought and ming intellectual circles. These are, 495 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: of course the three major teachings, and then the dream 496 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 2: could permeates the literary and visual arts of the time period, 497 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: producing apparently more dream related works of art and literature 498 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 2: in China than any other period. And everything is then 499 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 2: sort of wrapped up in the vortex of a dynasty 500 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 2: at its end, and then ultimately the aftermath of that end. 501 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 2: And she says that while all cultures have their dream cultures, 502 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 2: dreams are not considered with equal seriousness across all of them, 503 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 2: especially among the educated elite. But one of her core 504 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: arguments is that the Late Ming period is the most 505 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 2: radical period of Chinese dream culture, and given that, one 506 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 2: could make a good case for it being the most 507 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: radical period of dream culture in recorded human history. And 508 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 2: here's one more interesting tidbit. Struve argues the quote, the 509 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 2: total effect of these changes was to weaken the distinction 510 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: that people normally drew between waking and non waking awareness 511 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 2: and to make doubts about parsing reality and unreality emblematic 512 00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 2: of the age. 513 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 3: Is this real life? 514 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? So yeah, just such a fascinating look at this 515 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 2: time period, which again we check out the book if 516 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: you want to really go go and deep on it. 517 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 2: It's it's very readable, very interesting stuff. But just the 518 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 2: take home, yeah, is that that perhaps arguably like this 519 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 2: may be the period certainly in Chinese tradition, in Chinese history, 520 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 2: but maybe even larger, maybe with thin human culture recorded 521 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 2: human history entirely, like this is the period of time 522 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: where the focus on dreams becomes like like so pronounced 523 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 2: that that you're like weakening our popular understanding of the 524 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 2: day between reality and unreality. It's it's fascinating to think 525 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 2: about it. 526 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 3: And ultimately, what is the argument Struve makes about why 527 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 3: the literature and art of this period is so dream focused? 528 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 2: You know, I think it comes down to those converging 529 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 2: elements you know that we touched on earlier. You know 530 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 2: that you have a dynasty at its end, you have 531 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 2: the intellectual circle. Within the intellectual circle, you have all 532 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 2: these individuals who aren't able to apply themselves to state 533 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: craft and state function, and then these various sort of 534 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 2: theological and intellectual trends that are converging as well. So 535 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: it's you know, it's comparable to some of the other 536 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 2: examples we've pointed out where it's like you have a 537 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 2: mix of sort of things that are going on within 538 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 2: the zeitgeist and then within the intellectual circle, and then 539 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 2: things going on in the external world that are kind 540 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 2: of forcing this narrowing thought or focusing a thought on 541 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 2: dreams and the power of dreams. 542 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 3: I was thinking about ways to compare and contrast with 543 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 3: the features of the Quaker example that we talked about 544 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 3: in the previous episode, And if this makes any sense 545 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 3: to you, let me know. I was kind of noticing 546 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 3: an interesting difference, which is that both seem to be 547 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 3: very dream focused cultures that arise when they're is a 548 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 3: lot of political and social change. Again, the founding of 549 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 3: the Quakers coming out of the period of the English 550 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 3: Civil War and the Interregnum period, and then everything you 551 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 3: just discussed about the Late Ming example. But one difference 552 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 3: seems to me that at least the way Strove characterizes 553 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 3: a lot of the dream obsession of the Late Ming period, 554 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 3: it seems to be kind of a retreat. It's like 555 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 3: avenues of earthly material focus might be kind of closed off, 556 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 3: so there is a retreat to looking for significance and 557 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 3: purpose in the dream world, whereas for the Quakers, it 558 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 3: almost seems like the focus on dreams is more of 559 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 3: an advance mode or an attack mode, rather than a retreat. 560 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 3: You know, it's like there is intense focus on dreams 561 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 3: as a way of getting guidance for the next step 562 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 3: forward for a growing and very exuberant, enthusiastic religious group. Yeah. 563 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think case could be made for that. I mean, 564 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 2: I guess in both cases it does seem like people 565 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 2: are turning to dreams at least in part for answers 566 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 2: and understanding for either self reflection or like a cosmic 567 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 2: understanding of what's going on in the world. But yeah, 568 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 2: there's something about or at least in these writings, we've 569 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 2: looked at the way that the Quaker approach does feel 570 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 2: like dream tonight, act tomorrow, whereas a lot of the 571 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 2: way it's discussed by Streuve concerning the late Ming dynasty, 572 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 2: it's like dream tonight and maybe dream the next several nights, 573 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 2: less focus on like what is the immediate action, or 574 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 2: so it seems to me. 575 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 3: Though, to bring up another example we talked about you 576 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 3: in the first episode on this in the series focused 577 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 3: on like the Romantic period in English literature, like the Romantic, 578 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 3: the British Romantic poets and so forth, which I think 579 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 3: are largely interpreted in some ways as a reaction to 580 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 3: the Industrial Revolution and to modernity. Like the literature of 581 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 3: the English language Romantic period, is often interpreted as an 582 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 3: attempt to escape the realities of the modern world and 583 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 3: especially industrialization. 584 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so dream dream tonight, write poetry tomorrow, or create 585 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 2: visual art tomorrow. And that, of course we see that 586 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 2: reflected in the main example as well the creation of 587 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 2: all of this dream literature and also dream visionary arts 588 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, and I can't help but come back to, 589 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 2: you know, wondering about you know, where we are now, 590 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 2: I mean we, as we've discussed, you know, our modern 591 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 2: understanding of dreams is largely potato based, you know, with 592 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 2: some forays into these other worlds, but also today. 593 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 3: I'm sorry to interrupt you, but just to clarify if 594 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,839 Speaker 3: you happen to tune in late on this series, we're 595 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 3: using potato as a shorthand just for naturalistic explanations of 596 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 3: dreams based on a passage and Scrooge. We're not literally 597 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 3: saying that everybody thinks it's caused by digest of issues, 598 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 3: though that has been one of the naturalistic explanations people 599 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 3: have used over the years. I think today a lot 600 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 3: of people would say the contents of dreams are just 601 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 3: I don't know, kind of obscure psychological causes. It's things 602 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,320 Speaker 3: you've been thinking about and so forth. 603 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 2: Though, I am brought back once again to our Beans 604 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 2: episode talking about like the link between beans and I 605 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 2: remember us getting into that a little bit, like perhaps 606 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 2: like beans digestion, beings, association with the spiral world, and ghosts. 607 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 3: I don't know. 608 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but I mean today, not only do we 609 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 2: have beings still and certainly we still have dreams, but 610 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 2: we also have all of these technological means of throwing 611 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 2: ourselves down the chasm of other worlds, you know. I 612 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 2: mean we have virtual worlds, we have various video game 613 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 2: worlds and so forth. So I don't know how we 614 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 2: would factor all of that into it as well. M Yeah, 615 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 2: Like to what extent is the creation and the not 616 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 2: only the creation of, but the yearning for digital virtual worlds, 617 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 2: A yearning for like a dream world of our own design, 618 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: A like that's sort of a lucid or semi lucid creation. 619 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 3: Sold's a dream realized as a nightmare. 620 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's this like straight up matrix stuff 621 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 2: right here, I guess, Like, yeah, but so it's not 622 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 2: a wholly original thought. But yeah, I can't help, but 623 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 2: but wonder about it. 624 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 3: Well, Fortunately, if you are stuck in an Internet bad dream, 625 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 3: you can log off. Always remember that you can. You 626 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 3: can detach from the device. 627 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 2: That's right. All right, Well, we're going to gohe and 628 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 2: close out this episode, but join us Tuesday, I believe, 629 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 2: for the final episode in this series. In the meantime, 630 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 2: if you want to go back and listen to any 631 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 2: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you'll find 632 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:48,959 Speaker 2: them in the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed 633 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 2: Core episodes published on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays, we 634 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 2: do a listener mail episode where you know, we'll inevitably 635 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 2: be discussing everybody's dreams some more, as we've done in 636 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 2: the past and we'll continue to do in future. On Wednesdays, 637 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 2: we do a short form artifact or monster fact episode. 638 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 2: In fact, the monster then inspired the the series was 639 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 2: originally going to be a monster fact episode, but it 640 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 2: just got too big. And then on Fridays we set 641 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird 642 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 2: film on Weird House SEMA. 643 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If 644 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 3: you would like to get in touch with us with 645 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 3: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 646 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 3: topic for the future, or just to say hello. You 647 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 3: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 648 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:39,240 Speaker 3: Mind dot com. 649 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 650 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,879 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 651 00:37:46,040 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.