1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, m. This audio is from a daily ceremony that 2 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: takes place between India and Pakistan that started in It 3 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: is held at the Waga Border, the most prominent border 4 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: crossing between these two countries. The last time I was 5 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: in Pakistan was three years ago. On that trip, I 6 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: witnessed the Wagga Border ceremony. My family and I were 7 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: visiting Lahore, located in the province of Punjab, which was 8 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: a major area of conflict during partition. Lahore is located 9 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: only fifty two miles away from India and my experience 10 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: at the border was unforgettable. From I Heart Radio, I'm 11 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: Nahasis and this is partition a podcast that will take 12 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: a closer look into this often forgotten part of history. 13 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: My family's last trip to Pakistan was for three weeks. 14 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: This gave us time to explore more parts of the country, 15 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: and Lahore was high on the list. It is filled 16 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: with stunning architecture dating back to the Mughal Empire. I 17 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: love Garachi, after all, it's where I was born, but 18 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: in terms of culture, Lahore has my birthplace beat. We 19 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: do have amazing food though. While outlining our travel plans, 20 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: my dad mentioned a ceremony Confused, I asked what he 21 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: was talking about. He told me that every evening, a 22 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: military event between India and Pakistan takes place. This ceremony 23 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: was one of the first things we saw when we 24 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: arrived in the whore, and it was the epitome of 25 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:27,119 Speaker 1: a spectacle. During our visit, the air was filled with smog, 26 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: which made our journey to get there all the more formidable. 27 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: Cars were only allowed so far and we eventually had 28 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: to walk the rest of the way to the stadium 29 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: where the ceremony would take place. On the way, we 30 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: had to go through numerous security checkpoints. As we made 31 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: our way to the entrance, I tried to get my bearings. 32 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: Walking along the crowd to get to the stadium was 33 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: just very bizarre. I'm not sure how long we were 34 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: walking for, but it felt like at least forty five minutes. 35 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: We were walking on the same roads where absolute carnage 36 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: took place over seventy years ago. A shiver ran down 37 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: my spine. The majority of people I saw were filled 38 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: with excitement and anticipation to witness this tradition. I only 39 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: noticed a handful of people realized the melancholy of where 40 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: we were and what we were doing. Both sides of 41 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: the road were fenced off with barbed wire, indicating that 42 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: the other side was Indian territory. The land beyond the 43 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: fence seemed vast and endless. I turned to my mom 44 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: and said, is this the closest I will ever get 45 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: to India. She didn't give me a verbal response, but 46 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: instead gave me a look that conveyed all I needed 47 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: to know. As we continued our journey, I couldn't help 48 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: noticing the amount of school children that were there. I 49 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: saw many different uniforms. I wanted to ask if they 50 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: were from a local or nearby school, or did they 51 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: travel from other provinces. I wondered what they were taught 52 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: about the continuous strife between these two places. I didn't 53 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: really know how to feel during the ceremony. At its core, 54 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: it's a daily military practice for the Indian and Pakistani armies, 55 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: a forty five minute long sequence of marches and songs. 56 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: It's spoken of as a display of cooperation and brotherhood 57 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: between these two nations. In person, it was almost like 58 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: a scene straight out of Gladiator. Thunderous claps and cheering performers, 59 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 1: flag waving snacks being sold. Did my family and I 60 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: buy some popcorn, absolutely, but didn't make the concept any 61 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: less strange, not at all. The performance has two parts, 62 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: the beating retreat and the changing of the guard, performed 63 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: by the India Border Security Force and the Pakistan Rangers. 64 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 1: Respective sides were separated by two gates that open and closed. 65 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: During this theatrical production, Indian and Pakistani soldiers march in 66 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: perfect unison. The flags of both countries are lowered and 67 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: they partake in puffery and intimidation. Think of a male 68 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: peacock trying to attract a mate. The Pakistan Rangers were 69 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: black uniforms while the Indian Border Security Force were as 70 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: khaki uniforms, with both sides sporting pops of color. These 71 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: colors demanded attention with every hand raise and leg kick. 72 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: The gates first open as the sun sets. The flags 73 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: are folded after they are lowered, and a no nonsense 74 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: handshake takes place to conclude the end of the ceremony. 75 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: After the handshakes, the iron gates of the border close again. 76 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: During the entire event, visitors sing their national anthems and 77 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: chance slogans of Bakistan's in the body, which means long 78 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: lived the land of pure or victory to Bakistan and 79 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: jay Hind victory to Indian h Long live India across 80 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: the way. As I sat in the stadium, letting everything 81 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: in front of me sink in, I couldn't help but 82 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: think what were we all supposed to take away from this? 83 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: Is it all fun in games? Or does it build antagonism? 84 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: The idea behind it is to symbolize respect in addition 85 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: to rivalry between the two nations, But ultimately it's a 86 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: source of national and patriotic pride. There is no shame 87 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: in being proud of your heritage and where you come from. 88 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: But I think it's important to realize that our identities 89 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: are so entwined with each other. One does not exist 90 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: without the other. Our culture, language, food, and countless other 91 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: entities are cut from the same cloth. Yet decades later, 92 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: there are so much anger, bias, and hurt. As I've 93 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: said again and again, partition continues to haunt our daily lives. 94 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: I asked how these two governments can have a daily 95 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: ceremony together, a ceremony that started over sixty years ago, 96 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: when their relationships with each other are so troubled. I'm sorry, 97 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: but you cannot have a ceremony that represents respect and 98 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: friendship when Indian and Pakistani people are barred from visiting 99 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: the other country just because of where they were born 100 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: in familial ties. As I discussed a little later, it 101 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: wasn't always like this. This illusion of friendship, which is 102 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: really a disguise for hateful policies and violent rivalry stemming 103 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,119 Speaker 1: from the British made border made me think of something 104 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: I noticed when my family and I began to walk 105 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: towards the stadium. In the distance, I could see both 106 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: India's and Bokistan's flags waving in the wind. My dad 107 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: noticed I was looking at them and said that India 108 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: had put up a flag first and Pakistan followed suit, 109 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: but purposely made their flag higher than theirs. I asked 110 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: if he was kidding. It's the to my mind to 111 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: look this up at the time, but when writing this 112 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: episode I did and he definitely was not kidding. In March, 113 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: India put up a flag that was three d sixty 114 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: ft tall. Five months later, Bakistan decided to put up 115 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: a flag of their own, but at four hundred ft. 116 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: The Hindustan Times reported in July that India plans to 117 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: create an even larger flag, one that is fifty ft 118 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: higher than the current one they have in place, making 119 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: it ten feet taller than Pakistan's. And I'm sure once 120 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: that happens, Bakistan will make a larger one and the 121 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: madness will continue. There are some, I'm sure who see 122 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: this news and feel a deep sense of pride or 123 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: find a comical I personally can't help but see it 124 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 1: as a waste of time, energy, and money when there 125 00:08:50,240 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: are real needs to be addressed. The majority of our 126 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: conversations on the border have dealt with how difficult it 127 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: is for many Indians and Pakistanis to visit the other side. 128 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: But why and what other underlying issues caused each government 129 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: to deny visa applications from people of the other country. 130 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: Since partition, India and Pakistan continue to have deeply tense relations. 131 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: Both countries have nuclear weapons and continue to fight over Kashmir, 132 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: even with numerous wars already under their belts. It should 133 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 1: be noted that the dispute over Kashmir and other tensions 134 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: between these nations are very intricate and complex, so for 135 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: the purposes of this episode, I'll be using a handful 136 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: of examples to illustrate how tensions between the two countries 137 00:09:51,320 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: manifest today. My research interests are about refugee ease and 138 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 1: borders in South Asia, and so as a consequence of that, 139 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: I'm obviously interested in Partition. That is dr ant an 140 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: historian and professor of international relations at Royal Holloway University 141 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: in London. I wanted to ask her about the border 142 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: from more of an historical lens. I first asked her 143 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: about these borders over the last seventy five years, they 144 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: have gone through different periods of accessibility. I have a 145 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: picture of my fraternal grandparents in front of the taj 146 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: Mahal in the sixties, shortly after my dad was born. 147 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: The likelihood of that picture being taken in two is 148 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: extremely small. First of all, the kind of whole visa 149 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: and passport regime has a much longer history. So in 150 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: order to understand where that comes from, I think you 151 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 1: actually have to go back to partition and both India 152 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: and Pakistan trying to work out, as I said, who 153 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: belongs and who doesn't. And in that process two things 154 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: emerged a forman system first and then a passport system. 155 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: So before the visas, they came passports for these people, 156 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: right and why did these systems emerge. The permit system 157 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: really emerges because many Muslims who go to Pakistan want 158 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: to come back to India and the Indian government is 159 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: worried because many of these people have left property behind 160 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 1: property to the Indian government calls evacuate property and was 161 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: going to hand this over to Hindus and Seeks. So 162 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: if these Muslims come back and claim this property, that 163 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: causes a problem. So they make them apply for permits. 164 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: And the permits that are given to Muslims are different 165 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: to the permits that are given to Hindus and Seeks 166 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: in this period. So although ostensibly Naru has declared India 167 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: to be a secular state, there is a difference in 168 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: the way in which Hindus and Muslims are crossing this border. 169 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: Even in Nhru was the first Prime Minister of India. 170 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: The passport system interesting is introduced at the behest of Pakistan, 171 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: but not quite at the behested Pakistan. But Pakistan has 172 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: a greater hand in the passport system. And the reason 173 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: they introduce it is because actually they are overwhelmed by 174 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: the number of Muslims who are coming into Pakistan and 175 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: in order to stop that floor, they introduced another document 176 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: that would make people's lives harder and more difficult. And 177 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: the way this plays out in the next sort of 178 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: a few decades is that both countries see crossing this 179 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: border are acquiring this passport as a sign that you 180 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: have made a choice. But again, as I said to 181 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: you in answer to an earlier question, people's lives are complicated. 182 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: So some people across the border and they make a choice, 183 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: and then they want to turn the clock back or 184 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: the acquire a passport. And then they say no, but 185 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: we want to go back. We want either claim property 186 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: or we're not happy here. We want to go back 187 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: to our own lives. And so if you look at 188 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: sort of Indian constitutional records as well as court cases, 189 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: there are many, many of these court cases about people 190 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: who are trying to claim citizenship, trying to claim passports, 191 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: usually Muslims, who may have made decisions to go back 192 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 1: and then come back again. So this history gets very, 193 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: very messy. Much like any situation in which there are 194 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: disputes between countries and governments, it all boils down to 195 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: who is in charge. So you have this regime of 196 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: permits and passports. That's first of all, creating this bonder. 197 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: Then over the next sort of a few decades, whether 198 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: the border is open or closed, as you rightly said, 199 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 1: is often a question of geopolitics. It's you know, down 200 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: to who's in power, who's not in power. You know. 201 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 1: So there was at one point of bus that went 202 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: to Lahore. There was a train that went to Dhaka, right, 203 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: So there's this kind of bus diplomacy that are trains 204 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 1: on the eastern side of the border. And then every 205 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: so often something happens like the Cargill War, and these 206 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: are shut down, you know. So there are moments in 207 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: which diplomacy opens up these borders and moments in which 208 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: the borders are closed. The Cargo War took place for 209 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: over two months, and it is one of the wars 210 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: between India and Pakistan overland and Kashmir. But what I 211 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: think is really interesting about the borders themselves, and I 212 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: did say earlier that we should think about the borders 213 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: is not just physical objects. But if we just see 214 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: them as physical objects, as people kind of stamping your 215 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: passport as you cross the border and so and so forth, 216 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: is that actually, as I said, the border in the 217 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: west has always been harder to cross, and In fact, 218 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: there was a time when post did not go across 219 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: the border. So if you posted a parcel from India 220 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: to Pakistan and went to Dubai, right because you paid 221 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: a crazy amount of But as I said, the border 222 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: in the east used to be open for a much 223 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: longer period of time. But that border has now been militarized. 224 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: There is now a barbed wire fence and India has 225 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: been in the process of kind of creating a wall there. 226 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: So the discourse around the border, around who is allowed 227 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: to cross the border has also changed. Whereas once upon 228 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: a time that eastern border would have been relatively easy 229 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: to cross. There used to be something called an Indo 230 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: Bangladesh passport, for instance, that you could simply used to 231 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: cross that border. So Hindus who had families either in 232 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: Bangladesh or we're living in Bangladesh and families and India 233 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: could simply use an Indo Bangladesh passport and vice versa 234 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: across that border. That passport was abolished, I believe in 235 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: two thousands teen or something. Ada points out what happens 236 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: within these countries is just as important as what is 237 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: happening outside of them, and I will argue that the 238 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: opening and closing of those borders is not just about 239 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: you know, who's in power and so on, but it's 240 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: also to do with internal politics, right about minorities, particularly 241 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: in India. And again if you look east, as that 242 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: border was created, that militarized border, that has gone hand 243 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: in hand with the writing of a new Citizenship Act, 244 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: a new citizenship Act that kind of goes back on 245 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: earlier conceptions of secularism and now makes India home for 246 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: South Asia's Hindus and seeks quite explicitly in Episode one, 247 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: I said that India would be home to the Hindu 248 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: Sikh majority, but it would also be more secular than Pakistan. 249 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: As Ada says, the amendment to the Citizen Act has 250 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: removed this notion. The Citizenship Amendment Bill was designed to 251 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: amend the Citizenship Act of nineteen fifty five to recognize 252 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: specific types of immigrants segregated by religion and country of origin. 253 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: Under the citizens Amendment Act, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Jains, Barsis 254 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: and Sikhs who had migrated from Afghanistan, Bangladesh or Bakistan 255 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: to India prior to twenty fourteen are no longer considered 256 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: illegal immigrants. And have a better chance to obtain citizenship. However, 257 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: notably Jews and Muslims are left out of the amendment, 258 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: which makes this a prejudiced policy against the religions of 259 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: Islam and Judaism in India. This legislation led to protest 260 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: all around India for its blatant exclusion of minority fates. 261 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: So I would say these questions around who is allowed 262 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: to get a visa who is not when these open 263 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: up are also a product of domestic politics. And these 264 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: domestic calculations around which minorities are seen to be legitimate 265 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: and you know, how we can make people lives more 266 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: difficult internally has an impact on external broad acrosses, all 267 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: of these rules and regulations get further complicated because not 268 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: only is this accessibility based on yourself and your faith, 269 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: but also where your parents and grandparents are from. If 270 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: you are applying for a visa to India but your 271 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: parents or your grandparent was born in what is today Pakistan, 272 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: that's a much more complicated process, right. There extra forms 273 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: to fill out. This isn't just about your passport or 274 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: your nationality. There is a sort of grandfather and grandmothering 275 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: of these of these causes, and again let's deliberate. The 276 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: idea of identity politics really comes into play as more 277 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: time passes. But what's interesting is that in the two thousands, 278 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: India introduces an overseas Indian citizenship and introduces a person 279 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: of Indian Origin card and then overseas Indian citizenship. And 280 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 1: the way that legislation is written is very interesting because 281 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: technically most pakistani Is or many Pakistanis would be eligible 282 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: to become persons of Indian origin or overseas Indian citizens right. 283 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: That piece of Indian legislation is primarily kind of directed 284 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: at the wealthy diasport to try and get money back. Clearly, 285 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: you know, some countries like Fiji et cetera, which saw 286 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: invented labor from India were excluded from that list, right, 287 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: But also it was specifically written to exclude Kistan and 288 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: Bangladesation so on, so that you know, people from those 289 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: countries could not claim overseas Indian citizenship status, right. And 290 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: so for me, I think a lot of these conversations 291 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: are really really connected, these conversations about border crossing, the 292 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: conversations about diasporic South Asians, as well as conversations within 293 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: India about minorities. I think these are always intimately and 294 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: intricately linked. All of my grandparents were born in India, 295 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: which makes me a person of Indian origin. I can 296 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: trace this fact back several generations, I'm sure. But because 297 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: they were forced to move during partition and I was 298 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: subsequently born in Pakistan, this legislation does not apply to me. 299 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people, as I said in 300 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: ninety seven, made a bunch of choices, not knowing what 301 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 1: the long term consequences of those choices would be, or 302 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: not expecting the long term consequences of those choices to 303 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: be what they turned out to be, and the ways 304 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 1: in which would be very hard to turn the clock back. 305 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: We also have to think in terms of privilege. I 306 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: think about this a lot when I think about personal 307 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: histories of Partition and the subcontinent, because the histories that 308 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: have been written and the histories that have been told 309 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: are so overwhelmingly upper class and uppercast. Right, the vast 310 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: majority of the people who moved were working class people, 311 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: and they had fewer options than many of the uppercast 312 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: supper class people who moved across these borders. Right, So 313 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: how you moved across the border. What you took with 314 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: you and then what happened to you after you cross 315 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: the border was very closely linked to your social status 316 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: before you cross the border. So even those Pajabis in particular, 317 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: who came across and who had very little, but who 318 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: belonged to a certain social strata or who had the 319 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: education or who had the connections, were able to thrive 320 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: in a way that many working class people struggle to 321 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: do so. And we know that that is particularly true 322 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: of the the Lit community that moved from Eastern Bengal 323 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: into West Bengal. Unther I mentioned the delt community, individuals 324 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: belonging to the lowest cast. We're at the point where 325 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: we're collecting all of these partitions stories where we're almost 326 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: sort of curating partition for the next generation. But whose 327 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: stories are we curating. There's some really interesting work that 328 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: shows that both India and Pakistan wrote that the Lit 329 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: citizens out of their histories, but were panicked because many 330 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 1: of these citizens did everyday jobs that the two new 331 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: countries needed people to do, so try to retain them 332 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: desperately while at the same time writing them out of 333 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: their histories. When we step back and we look at 334 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: these broader histories, gender, class, cast, religion. All of these 335 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 1: are so closely intertwined in how we understand, you know, 336 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: not just border crossing in ninety seven, but what happens 337 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: to those people in the next seventy five years. We 338 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: go on to discuss refugees and they're eatment in a 339 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: new place. I shouldn't have been shocked to learn that 340 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 1: who is and isn't considered a refugee also leaned into 341 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: the notion of identity politics. I think that's a really 342 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: important history of partition, that people didn't just cross a 343 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: border and become seamlessly integrated into the new nation state. Right. 344 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: And India and Pakistan both refused to sign the nineteen 345 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: fifty one UN Convention on Refugees, which defines who are refugees, 346 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: and the reason they refused to do that has to 347 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: do with the Eurocentric nature of it, has to do 348 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 1: with the fact that it defined refugees as emerging from 349 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: the war in Europe and so on and and so forth. 350 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 1: But the consequences of India and Pakistan not signing that 351 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: you still never signed it is that these people who 352 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: crossed the border are known as various things. Sometimes there 353 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: are refugees. Sometimes they're displaced persons in official discourse. Sometimes 354 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: they're migrants, and a lot of this is to do 355 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: with how they are then treated. So we know from 356 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 1: the exting literature, for instance, that the Punjabi refugees are 357 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: seen as genuine refugees because the Indian government argues they 358 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: fled violence and they are hard working and we deserve 359 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: to give them compensation and rehabilitation. Whereas these Bengali Is 360 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: are lazy and they did not flee the same kind 361 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: of violence that the Punjabis fled from, So somehow they're 362 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: kind of claim to refugeehood is less authentic, and then 363 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: they claim that therefore they don't deserve the same degree 364 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: of rehabilitation. But of course people keep coming and eventually 365 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 1: the Indian state tries to resettle them, and some of 366 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: these quite badly thought through rehabilitation schemes in Central India, 367 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: which fail because you can't just move people to arid 368 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: land and expect them to cultivate it overnight. But then 369 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: that's further seen as proof that these Bengali is only 370 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: one charity. They're not hard working like the Punjabis and 371 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: therefore truly deserving a rehabilitation. So groups of people who 372 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: cross borders at the same time their faiths can turn 373 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: out to be very friend depending on who they are, 374 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: where they crossed the border and the communities into which 375 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: they crossing too, right, And so those stories are really 376 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: really quite complex. Over the past few weeks, you've heard 377 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: several stories about people and their homes getting left behind, 378 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: and I wanted to know if I thought if there 379 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: could be a time where maybe the process for everyone 380 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 1: to visit these countries would be easier. Forced border crossing 381 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: in South Asia is traumatic, and when forest border crossing 382 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: everybody is traumatic. But there are some truly traumatic stories 383 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: in South Asian and that's seven one. There are expulsions 384 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: of stateless people in South Asia. There's kind of ongoing 385 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: trauma the Ranga is and so these stories are never 386 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: going to end in some ways, right, and in a 387 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: way I think that the kind of individual reconciliations were 388 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 1: subsumed within both India and Pakistan's original intention to almost 389 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: we raised partition, right, you know, we didn't have a 390 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 1: partition museum in India will very recently an independence day 391 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: in our fourteenth of August. In Pakistan, fifteenth of augustin 392 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: India is always focused on independence and then displaying a 393 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: military hardware rather than the trauma partition. And that was 394 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: a completely deliberate choice, right to raise some of those 395 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: histories to subsume them within this broader narrative, So a 396 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: sort of macro cosm of what happens at the Waga 397 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: Atry border, right, if you think of it that way. 398 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: So that's one of the reasons why those individual stories 399 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: have been kind of lost or don't get priority. And 400 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: you were asking what the kind of the future of 401 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: this might be like and what we can hope for, 402 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: and I can't predict that future, but you know, we 403 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: know that every time there is upheople in South Asia, 404 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: it creates more forced migration across borders. And you know 405 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: we know that for a fact, and in general, theoretically, 406 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: I like to think of borders as entirely artificial constructs, right. 407 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: And as someone who's lived on kind of three continents, 408 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: I was born on one continent, my children were born 409 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: on a different continent. We spent a lot of time 410 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: in North America. For me, border crossing has always been 411 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: an everyday part of my life. It's been an expensive 412 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: part of my life. But in the grand scheme of think, 413 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: my privilege has made it not that stressful, stressful, if 414 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: I'm honest, not that stressful, right. Whereas for a lot 415 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: of people in South Asia crossing these borders, and if 416 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: you can look at the kind of India Bangladesh border, 417 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: for people this this is a question of their livelihood 418 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: and every time they cross that border, they take their 419 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: life into their own hands in order to make ends meet. 420 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: So for me, I don't see an end to the 421 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,880 Speaker 1: ways in which these borders have become securitized. I don't 422 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: think we're ever going to roll the clock back on that. 423 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: Seventy five years of violence and turmoil is a lot 424 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 1: to unpack. It's hard to imagine where you would even 425 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 1: begin to have this conversation. Both governments are aware of 426 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: what the people of India and Pakistan had to bear 427 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: when it came to partition and contain enuously. Closing off 428 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: these borders is truly an awful way to repay them. 429 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: There is no time like the present to make amends 430 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: for the past. Our next episode will be our last. 431 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: These past nine weeks, you've heard interviews from survivors, historians, artists, 432 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: and other creatives discuss how partition is a part of them. 433 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: But where do we go from here? How can we 434 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: take all of these thoughts and discussions and turn them 435 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: into actions. How has this tragedy taught us about what 436 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: is currently going on in the world. Education and empathy 437 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: are at the heart of all these questions. Until next week, 438 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 1: I'm Nahasie's and this is Partition. Partition was developed as 439 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: a part of the Next Up initiative created by Anna Hosnier, 440 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: Joel Monique and Yes Sinia mit En. Partition is produced 441 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: by Anna Hosnier, Tricia Mukerjee and Beca Ramos. It is 442 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 1: edited by Rory Gagan, with the original score composed by 443 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: Mark Hadley.