1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Quality times. But Joseph Scott More, if you've read my 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: memoir Blood Beneath my Feet, there's a character, and I 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: say character, real person, my grandmother Curl, who features quite 4 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: prominently in Blood and because she did a lot of 5 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: my raising, and still to this day, there's not a 6 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: day that goes by I do not think about her. 7 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: And I literally mean that, and I've got a photo 8 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: of she and I on my mantle. But she had 9 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: all of these kind of I guess you'd call them 10 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: euphemistic terms that are I think they're kind of unique 11 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: to the South and particularly to Southern women. And she'd 12 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: say all kinds of things, you know that you would 13 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: get the drift of it, you would understand it, but 14 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: contextually it seemed out of place. And one of one 15 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: of her sayings that she would always use, particularly in 16 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: the Deep South. Remember, you know, my family's from Louisiana. 17 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: We're Delta people. You know, it's always insufferably hot and 18 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: you just learn to live with. But if she ever 19 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: got too hot, and that was rare because she was 20 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: used to heat, she'd always say, I feel like I'm 21 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: smothering to death. Well, there's a lot to be taken 22 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: away from that. Smothering for most people, you know, means 23 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: that your airways being blocked and you can't breathe. In 24 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: south it either means that you're really hot or you're 25 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: about to cover something with gravy. But today I'm going 26 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: to take you on a little and we're going to learn, 27 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: hopefully I'll be up to the task about asphyxial deaths. 28 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body batteries smothering. 29 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: That's a big part of asphixial deaths, and they come 30 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: in all shapes and size as Dave. When you know, 31 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: you begin to think about how someone dies, and the 32 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: main element to this is the idea of depriving the 33 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: victim of oxygen at the end of the day, because 34 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: it is our life source, you know, It's what feeds 35 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: our bodies, it's what keeps our brain working. Certainly, our 36 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: lungs process at our hearts pump out that oxygenated blood. 37 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: Our bodies scream for it, and if that's disrupted in 38 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: the slightest way, then it's catastrophic. That's one of the reasons, like, 39 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: for instance, people that develop pneumonia, and we're talking about 40 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: a natural disease here where their lungs get really heavy 41 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: and they can't process oxygen the way they normally do. 42 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: It's a real, real problem. I think back to COVID 43 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: where they were so anxious. It seemed like every third 44 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: person was being put on a vent that would show up, 45 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: you know, with chess congestion, and of course that's almost 46 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: a death sentence. Everybody uses this term DAVE nowadays nuanced 47 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: out of all of the ways that people die from 48 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: a traumatic situation, I'd have to say that that asphyxia 49 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: or asphyxial deaths are nuanced because you can have them 50 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: in a variety of categories, and you know, just to 51 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: kind of give everybody an idea of some of these things, 52 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: there's multiple modes of asphix it. We have everything from 53 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: you've mentioned a couple of leaves. We have strangulation, and 54 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: that can either be manual, which means you know, by 55 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: the hands. You can have ligature as well, and interestingly enough, 56 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: physicians many times will call that mechanical asphixiation because you're 57 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: using a mechanism to do it. You talked about a 58 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: garrot with John Wayne Gacy. Did you know that grotting 59 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: was actually a form of capital punishment. The French used 60 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: it extensively in their colonies, and they would tie a 61 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: person to a chair and they had a big twist 62 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: that went on the back of the chair. It was 63 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: like a gigantic key that was hooked to ligature and 64 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: they turned that thing around and around until and this 65 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: is in public, until the person was asphyxiated. You have, 66 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: you know, instances of judicial hanging, and of course we 67 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: still you know, have people that hang themselves all the time. 68 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: It's probably in my little slice of the Pies of 69 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: Death Investigator. It was just behind self inflicted gunshot wounds 70 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,119 Speaker 1: as a method for people to end their own lives. 71 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons is is that everybody 72 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: owns a belt, everybody has pair of pants, everybody has 73 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: a shirt or a towel. I've seen people commit suicide 74 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: with a hair dryer before and not plugging it in 75 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: and jumping in the bathtub. I'm talking about tying. And 76 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: this was actually on an acute psychord. I got called 77 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: into this thing and they had this lady was in 78 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: acute distress. She was in a manic phase. They were 79 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: giving her drugs to calm her down. Things like adavan 80 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: and all that sort of stuff. And they left her 81 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 1: with a hair dryer and she went on the other 82 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: side of her hospital bed and tied the plug off 83 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: onto the top rail, you know those rails that go 84 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: up and down, and she wrapped that that hair dryer 85 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: around her neck so that when I observed her, the 86 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: hair darwer was hanging on the front of her body 87 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: like a big pennant, and the cord was wrapped around 88 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: her neck and she just sat down. And people don't 89 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: realize you don't have to be standing hanging yourself. And 90 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: that's a theme. That's a recurrent theme that you have. 91 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: So you know, we have you know, strangulations, hangings, hangings 92 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: can come about, and then you know, you can have 93 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: accidental hangings. Have a couple of those. A young kid 94 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: that was trying to entertain his younger siblings because his 95 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: mother was working as a prostitute in Atlanta and he 96 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: was left with him. He was I think he's this 97 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: precious child, was only nine years old, and he sat 98 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: his siblings in front of him, and he had a 99 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: batman mask that someone had given him, and he had 100 00:06:55,279 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 1: an old jump rope that he tied inside of a closet, 101 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: and this house was really old, so he could hold 102 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: on to the jump rope that was anchored on an 103 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: old clothes bar in there and swing out of the closet, 104 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: bounce off the wall, and swing back in. He kept 105 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: telling the kids that he was he was Batman, and 106 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: he got looped around that thing and he hung and 107 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: six headed in front of his siblings. And the only 108 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: reason somebody found out about it is this horrible neighborhood. 109 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: There was a little old lady that lived down the 110 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: street and she saw a three year old and it's cold, 111 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: it's like in February. Saw a three year old walking 112 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: down street only wearing a diaper and a t shirt 113 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: and she was crying. And she heard this child crying, 114 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: this in the middle of the night, and she just 115 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: happened to pop out there. And all this little girl 116 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: could say was, I can't remember the child's first name, 117 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: but he's sleeping. He's sleeping. And so she goes to 118 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: the house and kids still hanging, and other kids are 119 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: crying in the house. And so you know, I've had 120 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: kids on tire swings that have been hung by doing 121 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: the cabbage patch on top of the tire where they're 122 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: holding onto the rope. I think pendulums around their body, 123 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,119 Speaker 1: and that's a type of hanging. Have we drowning fits 124 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: into the category of sphyxial death? Really, yes, Drowning is 125 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: because you're replacing oxygen with liquid at that point in time. 126 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: So that is, in and of itself an asphyxiation anything 127 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: that replaces oxygen in the body, and you have substances 128 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: out there or chemicals that are out there that are 129 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: what are called oxygen deprivaants. I recall having a young 130 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: man that was engaged in something we'll talk about in 131 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: just a moment even further, he was engaged in autoeroticism, 132 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: and he was he was a salesman and he is 133 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: his first job. He was a salesman selling halon fire extinguishers, 134 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: and they use halin on boats a lot, and it's 135 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 1: odorless and it's colorless, but it grabs the oxygen out 136 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: of the air, binds with it, and if there's a fire, 137 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: it immediately knocks down the fire. So if you're on 138 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: a ship, these things will be deployed and it jumps 139 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 1: right down on the on the burning fire and extinguishes it. 140 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: It's not like foam or anything else, and he was 141 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: sniffing this stuff in order to get a rush as 142 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: he's pleasuring himself, and he was found dead at his 143 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: desk from halon. So you have that carbon monoxide. You know, 144 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: there's a number of these agents, and then you have 145 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: poison agents. There's classic image of some of the Kurdish 146 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: Kurdish occupants in Northern Rock where you know Hussein had 147 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: used seren gas, you know, an entire village and wiped 148 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: them out. Picture of mother and and child, you know, 149 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: hunched over. Then you have suffocation. Suffcation comes in a 150 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: variety of different different ways. You can have suffocation where 151 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: it's almost a positional asphyxia. The case that jumps to 152 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: mind for me the most in my career as a 153 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,359 Speaker 1: little kid whose mother again was off with her boyfriend, 154 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: left her two older children in charge of a ten 155 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: month old I think the child was a child got 156 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: wrapped up in it, rolled over, got wrapped up in 157 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: an afghan, and the mother had not put the side 158 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: rail up, had not even attached it, just pushed the 159 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:49,479 Speaker 1: crib to the wall and the child inverted head downward 160 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: against the wall and the mattress wrapped in an afghan 161 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: and couldn't break free. Well, that's a suffocation, it's positional asphyxia, 162 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: and you'll get those. A lot have drug addicts that 163 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: fix on the toilet, heroin addicts because it makes you 164 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: so sleepy. I've had at least three of those where 165 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: they fall off of the toilet and get in between 166 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: the wall and the commode and again their chest can't 167 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: rise and fall, and they're so debilitated by the drugs 168 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: it's just not happening. You have compression asphixia, and that's 169 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 1: anything that prevents your chest from rising and falling. And 170 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: believe it or not, there are a lot of people 171 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: DAVE that die in motor vehicle accidents. It will call 172 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: them mvas die in motor vehicle accidents where yes they're traumatized, 173 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: but you get people that are pinned in vehicles and 174 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: their chests can't rise and fall, and they will they 175 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: will die as a result of compression asphixia. I've had 176 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: a number of those over the years. So there's to 177 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: talk about asphixial deaths and kind of how they are 178 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: examined and identified and that sort of thing is a 179 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: big part of our job. And you might see evidence 180 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: people always talk to me many times. One of the 181 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: big questions they'll ask, particularly if I'm going on television 182 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: to cover something, They'll want to know if there were petiki, 183 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: And generally that's a that's something that's a common thing 184 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: that you see, particularly in individuals being strangled, because the 185 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: blood literally backs up into the head, gets into that 186 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: soft tissue around the eyes and gorges that area and 187 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: those little vessels pop. Do you know who else gets patiki? 188 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 1: I dave that it's not associated with some kind of 189 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: asphyxial death. You don't take no idea about it. 190 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 2: No idea. 191 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 1: People that are severely constipated, and that's no joke. It 192 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: actually happens. They'll get petiki and women in labor, Okay, 193 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: women in labor because of the strength. Yeah, And you know, 194 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: I have a very distinct memory of Kimmy, you know, 195 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: when she gave birth to Noah Loathies many years ago, 196 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: and her head, you know, she's turning red as is 197 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: going on. 198 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 2: Does that last after you have the child? 199 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: It dissipates pretty quickly. Kim had one, I remember, and 200 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: that's horrible in that beautiful moment, but I remember wanting 201 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: to wanting to look at her eyes because I had 202 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: heard that for years and looked at her, looked at 203 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: her eyes, and she had one tiny little PATIKII. I 204 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: didn't mention it to her because I thought that it 205 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: would rob the moment. 206 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: All these years, Kim has told all of her friends, 207 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: you know, right after I had Noah, Joe was just 208 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 2: staring so lovingly in my eyes. It's like the moment 209 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: that I treasured the most. And oh it's a beautiful moments. 210 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 3: You just can't you just can't escape at many times, Dave. 211 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: You know, with I've talked about all these kind of 212 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: modes that are involved in asphyxia. It's such a massive 213 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: category of death. I don't know that many people even 214 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: think about it at all, certainly, and I don't want 215 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: people to think about it. Let me think about it, 216 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: you know. I don't want to burden people with I 217 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: want to educate people. But you know, this is type 218 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: of stuff that we think about, you know, in death investigation, 219 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: and you know, you have all of these modalities that 220 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: will occur where in essence, you're depriving an individual of 221 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: oxygen and there's essentially m four categories where that will fit, 222 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: you know, that fit into this idea of of of 223 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: asphyxial death. So you've gotten multiple modes, but there's four categories. 224 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: Number one is compression of the neck. Compression compression of 225 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: the neck. It takes on a variety of presentations. So 226 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: we've we've got hanging. Then you've got non suspended ligature strangulation. 227 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: Most of the time that's going to come from a 228 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: homicide where people are, you know, using a ligature to 229 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: actually strangulate the person. You can have manual strangulation, and 230 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: manual is different from ligature. Manual is actually wrapping your 231 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: hands around somebody. Certain there's two types of man well, 232 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: there's actually probably multiple, but let me just give you three. 233 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: With compression of the neck, so if you think about 234 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: like an old movie where a guy's got on a 235 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: pair of black gloves and are approaching somebody with two 236 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: hands and they're coming at their neck, that's called throttling. 237 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: And you can either do that anteriorly on the front, 238 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: or you can do it posteriorly from the rear. You know, 239 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: think about all the creepy movies you've seen over the 240 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: years where some dark stranger comes up behind somebody and 241 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: grabs them by the neck and kind of chokes them 242 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: out like that. Then you have what's called a sea 243 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: clamp where an individual will come up and externally grab 244 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: the trachia. Of course it's external, but they grab the 245 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: trachia and they squeeze the trachia and that's where the 246 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: thyroid cartilage is. And this area of this kind of 247 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: cartilaginous body in the center where you know your tongue 248 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: is attached to the hyoid. You've got an Adam's apple there, 249 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: and they'll squeeze down on that particular area. 250 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: It's different for men and women when you're talking about 251 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: that specific area. 252 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: Oh, because I said Adam's apple. No, it's not really. 253 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: Women don't have as pronounced of the cartilaginous body that 254 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: gives the appearance of quote unquote the atoms apple. And 255 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: that's generally a pretty distinctive marker, you know, for men 256 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:30,680 Speaker 1: versus males versus females, something you look for. And then 257 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: we have you know, what you may have seen on 258 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: in wrestling and with cops where they'll use a choke hold. 259 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 1: And the choke hold is where you know you actually 260 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: if you binge your arm and it creates a v 261 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: and you put the person's trache right in the crook 262 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: of your arm, and you're squeezing, squeezing, squeezing them like that, 263 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: and you're and it's not just the airway that's been compromised. 264 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: It's also the vessels that are supplying the brain. So 265 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 1: you've got this this double action that's going on relative 266 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: to this, you know, the crushing of the airway or 267 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: the occlusion of the airway from external pressure and also 268 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: clamping down of the vessels. 269 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 2: When we see that, you know, in movies or TV 270 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 2: or professional wrestling. Yeah, is how long does it take? 271 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 2: I mean, when you get somebody in that kind of 272 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 2: sleeper hole, and is it reversible? I mean, if you 273 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 2: hold it for just a few moments, the person goes out, 274 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: you let them go and they return right. Yeah, but 275 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: how long? I mean, I'm not trying to figure out 276 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 2: how to kill somebody. I'm just curious. Is there a 277 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 2: point of no return? Or is it like standard or 278 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 2: different for everybody? 279 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: Standard? It's not standard, it's it's different from everybody because 280 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,239 Speaker 1: a lot of people, let's say you, well, let's just 281 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: take an obvious example. You've got a grown man, it's 282 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: got a well muscled neck. Compare that to a small 283 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: child or a dominiontive person. You know, it's it's more. 284 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: And I'll give you a great example, and it says 285 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: actually goes to hanging. But if you ever take the 286 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: time to look at the conspirators that were all hung 287 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: in the old Navy shipyard of relative to Abraham Lincoln, 288 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: they hung them all at the same time. Okay, there's 289 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,959 Speaker 1: one guy that's hanging in the captured image and his 290 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: name is Louis Payne, and all of them to a person, 291 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: with the exception of Louis pain had their head turned 292 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: to the side, which means that it snapped their neck. 293 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 1: Louis Payne, if you see pictures of him in life, 294 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: and some people say that he looks like a guest model, 295 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: you'll see what I'm talking about. Just go back and 296 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: google his name. Louis Payne. Okay, he's got a really 297 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 1: he's very young. He's got a well muscled neck. When 298 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: they dropped him off that scaffolding, his neck didn't break. 299 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: He sat there and essentially it's fixated as a result 300 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: of ligature around his neck because his neck was so robust. 301 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: And you can see him standing or hanging fully erect 302 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: you know, like this while everybody else their neck is 303 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: snapped and leaned over to one side or forward, and 304 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: they're all deceased. He ain't dead. And that really strikes me, 305 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: you know when I see that, and we're talking about 306 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: the atomical structures of the neck, how long can somebody last? 307 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: First off, you don't try it. No one should ever 308 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: try a sleep or hole quote unquote, because you're compromising 309 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: not just the airway, but you're compromising the croatis which 310 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,719 Speaker 1: lead up to the brain. And any compromise of that 311 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: oxygen flow to the brain is you're in an unrecoverable 312 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: flat spin. You're going to wind up on a vent 313 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: in an ICU because you're absent oxygen. Cops they've tried 314 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: to keep cops from using it for years and years. 315 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: They used to use a nightstick as well, they would, 316 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: and they also an arm bar, and they got away 317 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: from that a long time ago. Where the bar of 318 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: the forearm, if you imagine your form is like a bar. 319 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: It's placed against the anterior neck and it creates that 320 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: that compression on the neck where oxygen is not you know, 321 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: making it up to the brain. There was I think 322 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: it was what was it where they called a p 323 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 1: twenty four. I think p. Twenty four is the nightstick 324 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: cops used to use, and they had a lot of utility. 325 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: It had a separate handle on the side and they 326 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: could take it and use it like this. One of 327 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: the things they would do. It's kind of a natural reaction. 328 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: They would take that old nightstick that had the handle 329 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: coming out of the side and they'd hook somebody with 330 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: it and then put their foot on the back of 331 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: their neck and pull up to get them to comply. 332 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: And of course that's you're asking for trouble, you know 333 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: when that happens. The neck is very fragile, the airways 334 00:21:54,960 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: very fragile. So you've got a variety of these, you know, everywhere, 335 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: from compression the neck to obstruction of the airway. You know, 336 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: it's why Mama tells you to chew your food. I've 337 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: had kids that have choked to death, you know, on 338 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: hot dogs. I know it sounds like a fantasy or 339 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: you know, an old wives tale, but no, it does. 340 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 2: Happen to dreams. 341 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right, and the airway is cleared 342 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: in that particular case. So anything, and you know how 343 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: many times Dave us a dad me as a dad 344 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: me as a grandfather, you is a grandfather, have you 345 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: said the following words? Get that out of your mouth? 346 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: And then it's generally followed up by you don't know 347 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 1: where that's been, you know, And but you know, kids 348 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: will they explore the world through their senses and taste 349 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: and tactile, and they'll put stuff in their mouth. I 350 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: had a colleague of mine that worked a case involving 351 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: a golf ball where a kid had stuck a golf 352 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: ball and they couldn't clear the airway and they died. 353 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: I had a kid that choked to death on a 354 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: German cockroach in Atlanta, and when they tried to establish 355 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 1: the airway, they were trying to intubate the child. I'll 356 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: never forget this case as long as I lived. And 357 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: that was in a fhixial death. The cockroach had crawled 358 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: into the child's mouth, the house was infested with him. 359 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: He had gotten in the child's airway and child began 360 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: to choke. Child was I think like eighteen months old. 361 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: And when the EMTs got there, they tried to intubate 362 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: the kid, and they destroyed the cockroach but left it 363 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: in place. And so when we dissected the neck, we 364 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: found the thorax, the little intente the legs, and it 365 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: was one of the most bizarre cases that I had 366 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: worked because it was so horribly tragic. 367 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 2: But that's actually an his fixial death. 368 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: It is an asphixial death. And so you know, after 369 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: you get through those two categories of obstruction and compression, 370 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: you have compression of the chest, which I kind of mentioned. 371 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: You know, if you have so much weight on top 372 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: of the chest that the chest can't rise. And father 373 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: there's actually a famous one of the famous executions from 374 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: the Salem witch trial where the guy refused to admit 375 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 1: that he was a witch because he wasn't he'd been 376 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: found guilty, and classic line, ultimate hero line. They began, 377 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: the men of the community. They tied him down and 378 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 1: began to put stones on his chest, and the preacher 379 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: that was standing there said, do you confess to being 380 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 1: a witch? No, add more weight. They'd add more stones, 381 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: and these these huge stones. It took like three guys 382 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: to put them upon them. Imagine like a millstone, that's 383 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: about how big it was. And they got to the 384 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: last one and the guy that was running the show said, 385 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: will you now confess to be in a witch? And 386 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: he looked up and he said more weight, more weight, 387 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: and that's compression of the chest. And you can find 388 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 1: people that will get in all kinds of odd positions 389 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: that lead to their death. That's a great example of it. 390 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: I'd mentioned, you know, drug addicts that fall off of toilets, 391 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: people in car accidents, this sort of thing. And I 392 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: think finally, probably a very broad category is this idea. 393 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: And you could say that all of them are this. 394 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: But when we begin to talk about exclusion of oxygen, 395 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: and that is the environment in which you normally dwell, 396 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: something has happened within this environment to deprive you of oxygen. 397 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: One of the things that one of to terrifying things 398 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: is like grain silos. Grain silows are, first off, they're 399 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: very volatile, they can explode because of the gas in there. 400 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: But you also have individuals that, for a number of reasons, 401 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: will asphyxiate grain silos absence of oxygen, also inhalation of 402 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: the dust over a protracted period of time. I had 403 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: a guy, We had guys in New Orleans. There were 404 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: whole generations of families and this is not necessarily the 405 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: same thing, but just giving you an idea, there were 406 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: whole generations of families that worked as sand blasters Dave 407 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 1: and they sand blasted the Huey P. Long Bridge. It's 408 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: the longest road trestle in the world. And there's an 409 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: adjacent bridge that goes over the Mississippi River and the 410 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: thing is made out of steel and it's a constant, 411 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: ongoing job because the environments so harsh, and they would 412 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: always be sand blasted. Well, these guys, when we would 413 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: get them and they would be relatively young men, would 414 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: know their history. They developed something called silicosis, which is 415 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: deposits of sand in their lungs, and so when you 416 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: ran your hand over the surface of lungs, it feels 417 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: very grand. And if you slice through that tissue, you 418 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: can actually see the little grains of sand that hadn't embedded. 419 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: So that's compromising the airway and it leads to an 420 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: exclusion of oxygen. Probably the most striking thing though, is when, 421 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: and we were mentioning this off air, you know, there 422 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: was PSA back in the sixties, and I don't know 423 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: if anybody remembers this, but they used to have these 424 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: horrible PSAs that would come out just terrifying you and 425 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: for good reason. And you hear children in the background 426 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: saying three, two, one ready or not here I come, 427 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: and it's the disembodied voices. And it was in some 428 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: vacant lot where they'd film this in New York and 429 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: it would simply say and I think it said don't. 430 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 1: And there were refrigerators that were out there, and what 431 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: would happen In the old days, these things didn't have 432 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: magnetic locks. Still, go to restaurants and you'll see the 433 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: big walking coolers that those handles that they pull on 434 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: those things they lock from the outside. Okay, now, now 435 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: they have an escape button that you can press inside 436 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: and it'll disengage. But these old refrigerators, kids would get 437 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: inside of them to hide. And the problem is is 438 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,959 Speaker 1: that while inside any oxygen that's in there, the child's 439 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: body is displacing that oxygen in cubic inches and the interior. 440 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: When you go to buy refrigerator, you look at whatever 441 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: store you're going to and they'll give you the interior 442 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: size and cubic inches that's how much air you have. 443 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 1: And then once you've taken two or three breasts and 444 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: you've expelled carbon dioxide into that environment, there's nothing left 445 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: to breathe and of course, one of the worst things 446 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: that I can certainly imagine is being locked in what 447 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 1: would become you're coffin in life. I think we as 448 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: a race, have, the human race, have tried to find 449 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: for years and years the most efficient way of depriving 450 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: someone of their life. We don't want it to be 451 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: messy or nasty, and for years and still to this date, 452 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: there are countries that still employ hanging as a means 453 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: to killing people. I saw an image from I can't 454 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: remember specifically which Middle Eastern country it was from a 455 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: few years back, where they had people tied to a 456 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: bridge with nooses and had them on top of a bus. 457 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: It's one of the most horrific things I've ever seen. 458 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: And these people are there with the ropes hanging loosely, 459 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: They're looking around, their hands are tied behind their back, 460 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: and the bus begins to slowly move and their legs 461 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: are trying to stay up with the movement of the bus. 462 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: And finally the bus pulls away and you've got multiple 463 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: people that are suddenly hung in spot there where everybody 464 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: can see. And of course there was a crowd that 465 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: had had joined to watch the spectacle. You know, asphyxiation 466 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: has been something that is on the menu. I think 467 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: for us as people for years and years. People knew 468 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: forever that if you can prevent oxygen uptake in a subject, 469 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: that it's going to lead to death. 470 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 2: Let me ask you about a couple of things that 471 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 2: I have made note of over the last several years 472 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 2: in the deaths of some celebrities. Joke sure with what 473 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 2: has been called or is called autoerotic asphyxia. 474 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: What is it? 475 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 2: David Carriden comes to mind, and Michael Hudgens from an 476 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 2: excess the group, But there are others I'm sure that 477 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 2: have died from. 478 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: What is it? 479 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 2: And how do people die? 480 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: Well, we have to first look at what the word 481 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: auto means itself. Okay, So auto erotic having to do 482 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: with sex, okay, and then asphyxia, and it's not meant 483 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: to be The practice is not intended to in someone's life. 484 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: It's there to enhance sexual pleasure and sensation. I think 485 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: that by the time someone gets to that point, I 486 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: don't know that many times people are afflicted by this. 487 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: They can't receive sexual pleasure any other way. It's something 488 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: that's done alone by themselves, you know, out of sight 489 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: of everybody else. And what's fascinating is that the cases 490 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: I've worked, and there's not a lot of them. A 491 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: lot of people sold people in investigations a bill of 492 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: goods when they started. There are seminars out there where 493 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: you can go and learn about the investigation of autoroticism. 494 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: And why I have no idea because it's not something 495 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: that happens every day. You know, once you go over 496 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: in a generalized course, you kind of get the drift 497 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: of what's going on. And I always thought that it 498 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: was just ridiculous, and it became to the point where 499 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: it's very salacious. I think that, over the course of 500 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: my career have actually genuinely handled four and that's over 501 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: a twenty year career, and so it's not it's not 502 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: as prevalent. I think that it's probably become more prevalent 503 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: because people talk about it, and you've got you know, 504 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: curiosity seekers out there that hear about it and they 505 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: want to experience it. Please nobody, try to. 506 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 2: Let me ask you something, Joe, because this kind of 507 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 2: comes to mind, all right. I wonder how many times 508 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: somebody was labeled as suicide when it was something other 509 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 2: than a suicide. It was trying to achieve this type 510 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 2: of joy and ended up in death. What brings that 511 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 2: to mind is the death of Michael Hutchins, where some 512 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 2: people said it was a suicide and it has been 513 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 2: pointed out, no, it was autopia. 514 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: And he's he's again. When Hutchins died, he was not 515 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: a not a full suspension. Okay, he was actually kind 516 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: of leaning forward on his knees with literature, you know, 517 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: around his neck. 518 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 2: Okay, wait a minute, now, is that a common because 519 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 2: that's something that came up with Jeffrey Epstein. 520 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, mm hmmm is that common? 521 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,760 Speaker 2: Not not touching me? And what about wait a minute, 522 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 2: I do not I don't mean to shotgun this, okay, 523 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 2: and I apologize, but in my mind's I am thinking 524 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 2: when I've thought of hanging, it's always been hanging right, 525 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: suspended in the air. But Epstein, Hutchins, Robin Williams. 526 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:45,479 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Robin actually on a door. Yeah yeah, he did. 527 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: And you don't have to be that. That's why you know, 528 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: we draw a line. Hanging is kind of a it's 529 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: not a good term. I like suspension. If you if 530 00:34:58,239 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: you're gonna DeLine it, if you're gonna use the word hang, 531 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 1: suspension hanging versus supported hanging. And it kind of you 532 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 1: begin to under it again there's that word as nuanced. 533 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: You don't have to be, you know, someone that is 534 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: suspended and hanging like a judicial hanging off of scaffolding. 535 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: And the purpose of judicial hangings, if you will, back then, 536 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: was to break the neck. And for some reason, you know, 537 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 1: like the executioner always puts the nod on the left 538 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: side of the neck. This is a practice that's done 539 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: all around the world. It was done in the Old West, 540 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: it was done in Great Britain. Great Britain made great 541 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: use of hanging because they're the ones that were responsible 542 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: for hanging all of the Nuremberg Trial people. And they 543 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: had one guy and the guy was actually the executioner 544 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,720 Speaker 1: to the queen and it was a multi generation job. 545 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: I think it went back three generations. They wrote a 546 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,320 Speaker 1: great book about it. He would fly back and forth 547 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: to Germany and he gave detailed notes a three people today, 548 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: you know, and he kept a diary of it. But 549 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: that's that's meant to break the neck, Okay, Like at 550 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: the C C one, C two level where you're you're there, 551 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: you know, at the you know, there at the base 552 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: of the brain where you're into the primal brain, where 553 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: you're shutting down the autonomic nervous system. But many people 554 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: that hang themselves and set out to hang themselves, most 555 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: of the time they don't break their neck. That's what's 556 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 1: so odd about Epstein, is it Epstein? Epstein's hyoid was broken, 557 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,399 Speaker 1: which is generally something you never see it, never see 558 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 1: it in hangings, But you do in strangulation, Yes, you do, 559 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: because it's so high up in the neck. It's superior 560 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: to the leading edge of the of the noose that 561 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: has been fashioned. And not to mention that he had 562 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: other fractures in in his uh, the cartilage of his 563 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: neck as well the adjacent cartilage, and that that requires 564 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: quite a minute force. And even if you were to 565 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: tie off on that bed, the second tier, you know, 566 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: because there were bunk beds in there, even if you 567 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 1: were to tie off on the top, you couldn't generate 568 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: sufficient energy to create that kind of trauma with ripped 569 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: up bed sheets or clothing. You know, I don't think 570 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: I don't think you could. Michael Biden didn't think you could. 571 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: He was present for the autopsy. He said that he 572 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: didn't believe. But yet, you know, you've got these people 573 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: now with the FBI. I think Bungino and Cash Patel 574 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: claimed that they have seen the video and that they've 575 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: they've said that this is a that this is a suicide. 576 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 1: I'm not going to believe it until until that video, 577 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 1: which will never be released, would be released. I'm just 578 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,240 Speaker 1: not buying it. But yeah, you look at those cases, 579 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: compare that to autoroticism. I kind of went for the field. 580 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: But with autoroticism, the rush comes about. The way it's 581 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: been explained is by the deprivation of oxygen to the brain, 582 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: so they will be stimulated many times. In the old days, 583 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: when you go out on these cases, Dave, there would 584 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: be open pornography, like laying all over the floor and 585 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,160 Speaker 1: so that it's in an observable position, so that they're 586 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 1: super stimulated sexually as they're looking at images. And then 587 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: to complete the act, they will suspend themselves by the 588 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 1: neck to deprive themselves of oxygen and then touch themselves 589 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: at the same time. You actually have people that have 590 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 1: it down to an art where they had one guy 591 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: that used velcrow cuffs velcrow bindings between his legs where 592 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,320 Speaker 1: he bound himself between his legs, used a dog chain 593 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: to tie off on to a door hinge in a 594 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: hotel room, and he could move his hands back and 595 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,839 Speaker 1: forth between his legs and stimulate himself, and he had 596 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: poorn everywhere. The real tragedy in that case, I think 597 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 1: was the poor little housekeeper that had found his body 598 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 1: and daved This lady, God bless her. She was from Guatemala. 599 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 1: She stood maybe five to one. I'll never forget this, 600 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: and is actually on Sunday morning, and the bat it 601 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: was a micro tail, if you've ever heard of those, 602 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: kind of an extended state kind of place. When you 603 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: open the door to the hotel room, the first thing 604 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 1: to see on the left is the bathroom like many rooms, 605 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,839 Speaker 1: and he's hanging from that hinge and he's nude. And 606 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,760 Speaker 1: this poor woman, who could not speak a lick of English, 607 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: was terrified. She had her rosary beads with her. And 608 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: the reason I know this is that when I got 609 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: to the scene, she was huddled on the floor. She 610 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't sit in a chair. She was just holding her 611 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: rosary beads. She was praying, and she was rocking back 612 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: and forth. She was like saying, hell, Mary's in Spanish 613 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,240 Speaker 1: and rocking back and forth is so terrified her. And 614 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: that's actually a response that you get because this is 615 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: predominantly a male practice. There's only been a few female 616 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: instances of this. One of the first was this case 617 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: case out of Germany. It's generally male dependent, and you 618 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: will have spouses that have no idea that their better 619 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: half is engaged in this behavior, and they come home 620 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: and they find an individual suspended and dead worse, and 621 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: I did have a case of this. They have a 622 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: hidden area that they'll go into. And this one gentleman 623 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: that I had was in a garage area where he 624 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: had a cubby hole behind the garage where it attached 625 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: to the house, and he had, you know, like BTK 626 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: had a rat hole where he kept all of his memorabilia. Well, 627 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: people that practice autoroticism, they have certain things that really 628 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 1: stimulate them. This guy went into the space and they 629 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: couldn't find him. She thought that he had left, and 630 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 1: then they had a bad smell in the house and 631 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 1: they were able to go in and they found him 632 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: suspended in there. He's wearing he's wearing fishnet stockings. He's 633 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: got a silk plouse on and he's wearing a wig 634 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: and he's got this rope around his neck and he 635 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: had hung himself in there and there was pouring everywhere, 636 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,919 Speaker 1: and this is something that had been ongoing. Another thing 637 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 1: that you find is they love to document to they'll 638 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: you know, do videography of himself and go back and 639 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: watch it and fantasize. So yeah, that's you know, but 640 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: those cases are so rare. They don't happened with great frequency. 641 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:08,879 Speaker 1: You have far more suicides that occur with asphyxiation and 642 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: that with a ligature asphyxiation like that. And then of course, Dave, 643 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,719 Speaker 1: you know, as you'd mentioned, I can't remember which one 644 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,240 Speaker 1: it was, but you had mentioned particularly one serial killer 645 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: that had which one John Wayne Gacy? Yeah? Yeah, But 646 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: what about you. 647 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 2: Know something that you and I had talked of because 648 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 2: I made a note, but oxygen deprivation in serial killings? 649 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, what is is it? 650 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 2: Because it's like a you don't have to have a weapon, Well. 651 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: Your hands are your weapon. I don't mean I'm not 652 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,799 Speaker 1: being flippant by saying that. I know, but I think 653 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 1: that these people that are involved in serialized homicide like that, 654 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: it's a very primal connection that they have to the 655 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:59,839 Speaker 1: victim because they you know, if you stab somebody, there's 656 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: chance they're not going to die. All right. But just imagine, 657 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: if you view yourself as God almighty, which many of 658 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,919 Speaker 1: the serial killers do, you have the power over life 659 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:15,399 Speaker 1: and death, and they can literally chook someone to death 660 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,879 Speaker 1: like this. I'll give you a great example. I had 661 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: a guy that only could say only he wasn't in 662 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: the pantheon of serial killers where you've had, you know, 663 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 1: some people, you know they talk about Bundy, how there's 664 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: hundreds and all this. This guy killed six women, certainly 665 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,200 Speaker 1: enough to be qualified as a serial killer. But he 666 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:42,840 Speaker 1: used a garrot and he would he would rape these 667 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:51,000 Speaker 1: women and sodomize them. And he used a wire grot, 668 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,320 Speaker 1: and so what he would do, talking about the power 669 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 1: of life and death, he would tighten it down on 670 00:43:57,640 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: the back of their neck, and when they were starting 671 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: to con he would loosen it and they would start 672 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 1: to breathe again. And he went through this, so you 673 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,439 Speaker 1: would see multiple furrows on the neck where he would 674 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: readjust the garade while he was doing this. And I 675 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 1: think that a lot of that pathology that you see 676 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: with with serial perpetrators has to do with that idea 677 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,320 Speaker 1: that they're God's or perceived themselves to be that way. 678 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,160 Speaker 1: And you know, I think I shared this maybe on 679 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: an earlier episode. Out of all the series of serial 680 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,919 Speaker 1: homicides that I worked is four, maybe five I can't 681 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,800 Speaker 1: recall now, you know, Dave, I never had a shooter. 682 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 1: I never had a stabber, a cutter. Every single one 683 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,839 Speaker 1: of them were as fixial deaths and they were either 684 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: with ligature or manual strangulation. These are all individuals that 685 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:55,440 Speaker 1: you know that did this. So it's I think from 686 00:44:55,520 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: a serial standpoint, asphyxiation is something where they gain great 687 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: power with it, Dave. 688 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 2: You know, it didn't occur to me until you were 689 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 2: talking about that of them sending it down person thinks 690 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,720 Speaker 2: it's over, and then bringing them back and the terror 691 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 2: that would be struck in the victim all the time. 692 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,880 Speaker 2: It just boggles the mind of what people will do 693 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,360 Speaker 2: to one another. Yeah, yeah, there's another Yeah, there's another 694 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 2: part of this too, about being exposed to noxious gas. 695 00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 2: Is this how does that come into play here? 696 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 1: Well, Yeah, anything where you're dealing with the replacement of oxygen, 697 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: probably what would jump to mind for most people would 698 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: be carbon monoxide. Association. And that's as a death investigator, 699 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 1: that's what you're going to run into the most. And 700 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,319 Speaker 1: it can happen in I've never seen and I'm not 701 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,280 Speaker 1: saying it hasn't happened in my life. In my practice, 702 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,880 Speaker 1: it's never happened. I guess you could have homicide application 703 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 1: of noxious gases. I'm sure that that's something that has happened. 704 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 1: I never personally worked one that I was aware of. 705 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 1: Every time I've worked them, they've either been a suicide, 706 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,000 Speaker 1: which I've had many generally it involves the car in 707 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:23,279 Speaker 1: the garage with the windows now, or it has been 708 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 1: an accidental death where you know, I had one guy 709 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:33,360 Speaker 1: in particularly that reversed the fan, a family member reversed 710 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,600 Speaker 1: the fan on the wall heater so that it actually 711 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 1: blew blew the waste gas into the house and it 712 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 1: killed I think there were six six people in the 713 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: house that died, you know, which is you know, beyond 714 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 1: anything that you can imagine. But you know, Dave, probably 715 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,440 Speaker 1: the saddest case that I've worked of carbon monoxide. I 716 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:05,560 Speaker 1: had a guy that lived in an old, old home 717 00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:10,000 Speaker 1: in New Orleans and it was one of these beautiful 718 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,239 Speaker 1: old homes on the outside it didn't look like much, 719 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: but the interior was gorgeous. And the folks that have 720 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 1: been to New Orleans have seen some of these homes, 721 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:18,880 Speaker 1: you're going to know precisely what I mean. It's got 722 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,400 Speaker 1: this ancient crown molding that goes all the way around 723 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,319 Speaker 1: the interior, and the ceilings are all thirteen feet high. 724 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 1: He lived in his house all alone, and he had 725 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 1: a driveway immediately outside of his bedroom, and he had 726 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: an old truck that sat out there, and it was 727 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,960 Speaker 1: up on blocks, didn't have any tires on it, but 728 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 1: the engine ran. And Dave he had taken an old 729 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:50,840 Speaker 1: fashioned glass cutter, cut a perfect hole in his bedroom 730 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 1: window from the outside, put a pipe into the tailpipe 731 00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: of this truck, hooked a dryer dryer vent, you know, 732 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 1: one of those expandable hoses that comes off the back 733 00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,920 Speaker 1: of the dryer to push the exhaust out. Had taped 734 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: it down, put it into the window, sealed it with 735 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: duct tape, and went and laid down on the bed. 736 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 1: And after he had cranked up the truck and he 737 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: had gone into his bedroom and had these huge that 738 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:23,520 Speaker 1: you can imagine. The doors in this room were huge. 739 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:25,239 Speaker 1: There were two and they had gaps, you know, the 740 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,120 Speaker 1: old houses always have gaps under the doors, and he'd 741 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 1: taken wet towels and placed them at the base of 742 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 1: the door. And I remember this so vividly going out 743 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,320 Speaker 1: to the scene. You know, suicides are always very tragic, 744 00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: but this one in particular stuck with me. He let 745 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,240 Speaker 1: that truck run and it wouldn't take too long because 746 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,080 Speaker 1: all that has to happen you cannot have a flow 747 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,319 Speaker 1: of air. He knew that the oxygen in the room 748 00:48:53,480 --> 00:49:01,719 Speaker 1: has to be replaced with carbon monoxide. And when we 749 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,840 Speaker 1: got the scene cleared and I came out and the 750 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,080 Speaker 1: guy was laying there, and he had been down for 751 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,920 Speaker 1: several days, so he was in the early stages of decomposition. Dave. 752 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,880 Speaker 1: There were two black boxes that were laying next to 753 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:20,600 Speaker 1: his body on the bed, one of us left, one 754 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:27,000 Speaker 1: was right, and they were the cremaines of his wife 755 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,360 Speaker 1: and daughter who had been killed in a car accident. 756 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: And he couldn't bear life any longer without them. And 757 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,759 Speaker 1: he told all of his friends about this, you know, 758 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 1: and he had been just as you can imagine. It's 759 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,919 Speaker 1: just crushing to him. And he wasn't a very old 760 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:47,839 Speaker 1: fellow and right there on that old bed, he associated 761 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,160 Speaker 1: himself with carbon monoxide, the exhaust from an old truck. 762 00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:57,719 Speaker 1: It struck a chord with me, as do many of 763 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,799 Speaker 1: these cases involved in asphyxia, because there's something so for 764 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:06,960 Speaker 1: some reason, something so very intimate, something so very personal, 765 00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:11,840 Speaker 1: about each and every one of them. Sometimes you're just 766 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,440 Speaker 1: absent to words to really describe what you've seen. But 767 00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,319 Speaker 1: we do know this in the world of medical legal 768 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:23,000 Speaker 1: debt investigation, you need to be primed at all times 769 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,960 Speaker 1: to be prepared to work these kinds of cases because 770 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,640 Speaker 1: they come in all shapes and forms. That's why I 771 00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: recommend that we stay in the morgue as much as 772 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,040 Speaker 1: we can, we learn as much as we can, and 773 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,839 Speaker 1: we continue to search out these cases to see where 774 00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:46,400 Speaker 1: we can improve as forensic scientists. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 775 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,880 Speaker 1: and this is Body Backs