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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you get in touch with technology with

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Speaker 1: tex Stuff from how stuff works dot com. This podcast

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Speaker 1: is brought to you by Verizon Hub, the home phone

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Speaker 1: reinvented exclusively from Verizon Wireless. Hello there, everybody, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to tech Stuff. My name is Chris Poulette and I'm

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Speaker 1: an editor here at how stuff works dot com. Sitting

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Speaker 1: next to me, as usual, is senior writer Jonathan Strickland.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, Wow, it's been a long time since I've

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Speaker 1: heard that. Yeah, my World War Worldwide Rather tour is over,

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Speaker 1: so I'm back to Hey there, all right, So what

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Speaker 1: are we gonna talk about today? Oh? Well, actually today

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about subject that was brought up

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Speaker 1: by one of our listeners. This is from Sandra Almost

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Speaker 1: said Sarah. I'm sorry, Sandra. Here's what she has to say. Hi,

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Speaker 1: Chris and Jonathan. First, let me say I really enjoy

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Speaker 1: your podcast and listen to every episode. Thanks for all

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Speaker 1: the hard work. I'm learning a lot and it's mostly painless.

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Speaker 1: I bet that has something to do with the jokes

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Speaker 1: we tell. I'm all right, I'm writing to suggest an

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Speaker 1: idea for a podcast. Over the last few years, we've

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Speaker 1: moved to doing everything online, from banking and paying bills

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Speaker 1: to entertainment and socializing. While it's true we can save

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Speaker 1: paper and gas by doing more online, I think it's

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Speaker 1: misleading to think it's more energy efficient overall. I recently

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Speaker 1: read an article that said we have to build five

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Speaker 1: new power plants every year just to support the increased

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Speaker 1: energy needed for I T alone. That would be bad

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Speaker 1: enough if server farms operated at peak efficiency, but apparently

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Speaker 1: they're incredibly inefficient, so much of this energy is wasted.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to learn more about the impact of our

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Speaker 1: bandwidth hungry lifestyle and its impact on the environment and

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Speaker 1: our economy. I hope you'll consider this for a future podcast.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for considering it, Sandra, Well, Sandra, thanks a lot

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Speaker 1: for writing in. That's an ex silent email, and we're

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Speaker 1: gonna try and tackle this. It's it turns out this

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Speaker 1: is a really tricky subject to to talk about, not

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Speaker 1: because of any controversy or anything like that, but just

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Speaker 1: because when you start to look at the whole issue,

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Speaker 1: you begin to realize the picture is a little larger

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Speaker 1: than what you first thought. Right. Oh, definitely and then

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Speaker 1: you look at that and you're like, wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: wait wait, if I have to consider this, then I

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Speaker 1: need to consider this next element. So the picture gets

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Speaker 1: a little bigger, and it gets bigger and bigger until

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Speaker 1: you end up hiding under your desk and weeping softly

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Speaker 1: speak for yourself. Okay, Well, Josh, Josh knows I often

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Speaker 1: actually will hide under his desk because he's very comforting. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I understand. Yeah, As it turns out, we sort of

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Speaker 1: worked ourselves into a hole, so to speak, because, um,

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Speaker 1: we rely on both paper and computer technology. Um, and

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Speaker 1: neither one of them is particularly environmentally friendly, and neither

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Speaker 1: one of them is particularly harm so much more than

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Speaker 1: the other. Yeah, they're harmful in different ways. Yeah they're yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: and they're good and bad things about both. So, um,

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Speaker 1: I was gonna tackle print and paper to start with,

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Speaker 1: if you don't mind. Okay. So I was reading up

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Speaker 1: on a couple of different subjects, one of the which was,

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Speaker 1: you know, how much uh energy it takes to create

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Speaker 1: a book? Um. There was another one that was talking

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Speaker 1: about how much energy it takes to make a ream

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Speaker 1: of paper, And you know, it's it's an interesting thing

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Speaker 1: to read about and really again, you have to think

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Speaker 1: about the whole big picture, not just how many trees

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Speaker 1: you had to cut down or you know, the processing

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Speaker 1: plant for the trees to turn the lumber into paper. Um,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of different things you have to

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Speaker 1: think about, like after after the papers made, it has

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Speaker 1: to be shipped somewhere. When it's being shipped somewhere, that

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Speaker 1: that the fuel is going to put an impact on

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Speaker 1: the environment. The uh, just the travel and wear and

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Speaker 1: tear puts an impact. I mean eventually you start looking

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Speaker 1: at this like a domino effect, right, Like okay, well

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Speaker 1: that also means you have to maintain the trucks and

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Speaker 1: the trains and wait a minute, that also means that

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Speaker 1: if it goes into a store, you have to pay

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Speaker 1: for things like lights in the store. Like where does

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Speaker 1: it end? Is the question? But in general. There was

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Speaker 1: a study done by the Book Industry Study Group and

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Speaker 1: Green Press Initiative not too long ago where they try

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Speaker 1: to estimate how much carbon is produced through the publication

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Speaker 1: of a single book. The conclusion that they came to

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Speaker 1: was that each book contributes about eight point eight five

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Speaker 1: pounds of carbon. So every single book you see, essentially

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Speaker 1: that's what it took to make that book possible, including

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Speaker 1: you know, coffee table books. Yeah, well, I mean I

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Speaker 1: think it's I think it's an average because, yeah, I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: like the monster at the end of this book probably

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Speaker 1: doesn't have as big an environmental impact as say, the

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Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings. Now impact upon my life equally huge,

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Speaker 1: but not upon the environment. Um And they also estimated

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Speaker 1: that the publishing industry generates about twelve point for million

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Speaker 1: metric tons of carbon per year. It's a lot of carbon.

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Speaker 1: Significant And now you have to also remember that when

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Speaker 1: you're creating paper, obviously you're creating paper from lumber. You're

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Speaker 1: gonna have to get that lumber somewhere, so you have

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Speaker 1: to cut down trees. And trees are what we call

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Speaker 1: a carbon sink. So trees help take carbon out of

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Speaker 1: the environment, mostly through carbon dioxide. Um And So if

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Speaker 1: you start cutting down the trees, not only are you

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Speaker 1: in the process that you're going through to create whatever

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Speaker 1: it is you're creating in this case paper, not only

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Speaker 1: are you creating carbon that's going into the environment, you're

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Speaker 1: taking away the the ability to absorb that carbon because

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Speaker 1: you're removing some of the trees. So that's that's not

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Speaker 1: good for the environment. And uh, and we've been consuming

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Speaker 1: more and more paper products, um as the years have

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Speaker 1: gone by. I read an interesting report by green pdf. Now, granted,

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Speaker 1: you have to take this with a grain of salt.

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Speaker 1: You have to always consider the source of the information

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Speaker 1: you're receiving. Um. If you're receiving information from an environmental

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Speaker 1: like a pro environment kind of source, you have to remember,

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Speaker 1: all right, well, let's look around see if there's any

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Speaker 1: other independent sources that verify this information. Same thing if

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Speaker 1: you read from a pro industry source. Right, absolutely, so

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Speaker 1: you want to be far as much as the time

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Speaker 1: as you can. Right. You don't wanna you don't want

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Speaker 1: to just assume that the information you're reading is in fact, uh,

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Speaker 1: completely accurate. You need to kind of look around. But

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Speaker 1: what green pdf said was that on average, uh, each

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Speaker 1: person in the world consumes about a hundred and twenty

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Speaker 1: three pounds of paper per year, and of the paper

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Speaker 1: consumed is used in printing documents, and the average office

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Speaker 1: employee uses seven reams of paper per year. All right,

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Speaker 1: so here's some more figures for you. One point one

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Speaker 1: billion trees are cut down for this paper supply each year,

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Speaker 1: fifty million metric tons of lumber. And uh you think

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Speaker 1: each tree removes about one ton one metric ton of

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Speaker 1: carbon dioxide from the atmosphere each year. Uh. And each

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Speaker 1: tree can make about a hundred and seventy three realms

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Speaker 1: of paper. Okay, so there's a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of figures, facts and figures for you. A realm of paper,

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Speaker 1: by the way, UM, producing it dumps about twelve pounds

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Speaker 1: of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. UM. So you know

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Speaker 1: obviously that's a big environmental impact. UM. I mean, trees

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Speaker 1: are a renewable resource. You can grow more uh trees

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Speaker 1: if you need to. And the thing is a lot

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Speaker 1: of environmental organizations will tell you that they there is

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Speaker 1: some difference between trees taken from a sustainable forest versus

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Speaker 1: old growth trees. And there are some companies that are

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you really want to go looking for it,

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Speaker 1: you can find lists of companies that will tell you

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Speaker 1: the ones who use sustainable lumber versus old growth forests. UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you are so inclined to do that. UM.

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Speaker 1: The thing also that I you know that I think

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Speaker 1: that we should mention is the chemicals, because if you're

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Speaker 1: creating say a craft paper bag, you know, brown paper

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Speaker 1: bag that you would see at a grocery store. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty much that doesn't really require a lot of

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Speaker 1: of coloring. But if you want bleached white paper that

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Speaker 1: that you'd get for you know, for example, school notebook

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Speaker 1: paper or um paper for your laser printer, that takes

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Speaker 1: bleach and those chemicals go into a water source someplace

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Speaker 1: in a lot of cases, Um, you know. I I

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Speaker 1: remember actually driving across Tennessee, UH and seeing signs an

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Speaker 1: environmental organization and taking out signs near the Pigeon River

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Speaker 1: because there was a paper plant upstream and they they

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Speaker 1: used the billboard and it changed ever ever so often,

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Speaker 1: but it would actually you know, point out that this

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Speaker 1: particular paper company was you know, dumping chemicals into the water.

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Speaker 1: And uh, you know, it affects a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: It's not just you know, the trees being cut down

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Speaker 1: in the carbon dock side. It has another impact on

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Speaker 1: the environment just from the actual production, the other costs

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Speaker 1: of production, if you will. Sure. Yeah, I I grew

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Speaker 1: up in uh near Lake Lanier, um in in Hull County, Georgia,

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Speaker 1: and UH and we had paper mills, not too far

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Speaker 1: from the house. So when the wind was blowing in

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Speaker 1: a certain direction, you'd get that lovely oh yeah scent

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Speaker 1: of the paper mill. It was blowing in the other direction,

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Speaker 1: chicken farms, so it was blowing in one particular direction.

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Speaker 1: You got the best of both worlds. Oh yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then you know, you get the environmental impact of both

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Speaker 1: of those, right, yeah, tasting, So that that's kind of

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Speaker 1: the whole paper thing. So we're talking, you know, and

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Speaker 1: of course there are ways you can you can reduce

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Speaker 1: the environmental impact of using paper. If you're using paper

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Speaker 1: that that is certified as carbon neutral, arguably that means

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Speaker 1: that the company is doing something to offset the fact

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Speaker 1: that they're taking trees. Uh there, you know, they're cutting

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Speaker 1: them down, maybe they're planning more, maybe they're buying carbon offsets.

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Speaker 1: But if you have a carbon neutral kind of solution

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Speaker 1: to your paper, you might not be making quite as

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Speaker 1: big an impact on the environment. Now, there's still other elements.

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Speaker 1: You know, you were still talking about the production and

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Speaker 1: the shipping, shipping, just the you know, just just the

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Speaker 1: energy you need to run a plant. I mean that

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Speaker 1: that that energy that's coming from that electricity. So you know,

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Speaker 1: there's still things that are going to affect the environment,

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Speaker 1: whether or not you're using like totally recycled paper or whatever.

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Speaker 1: That that's true. UM, And of course there are costs

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Speaker 1: environmental costs and um financial costs to recycling to it

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Speaker 1: does help, of course. So if you buy recycled paper, UM,

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Speaker 1: that encourages them to continue making recycled paper and to

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Speaker 1: recycled paper when you you know, are done using it. UM.

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Speaker 1: You can always use the backsides of paper. Try to

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Speaker 1: duplex print if you're going to have to print something.

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Speaker 1: Here's one of my big pet peeves. If you work

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Speaker 1: in an office where people do a lot of printing,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna see a giant stack of stuff that people

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Speaker 1: printed out but never came to pick up. Don't be

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Speaker 1: one of those people. If you're going to print something,

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Speaker 1: print it because you need it and you're actually gonna

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Speaker 1: use it. That that's just one of my big pet peeves.

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Speaker 1: You know, I I find that I need to use

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Speaker 1: paper from time to time. I try not to use

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Speaker 1: tons of it ha ha literally but no figuratively speaking.

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Speaker 1: And the thing is, you know, I go over there

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Speaker 1: and I see that big pile of paper, and it

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Speaker 1: stress me crazy. Um, so they understand that. The one

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Speaker 1: thing though, that I that I find interesting about paper

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Speaker 1: when I think, well I'm going to shift to online,

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Speaker 1: is once the paper is produced, it's produced. It's it's there.

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Speaker 1: It's not doing anything. It's not you know, contributing to

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Speaker 1: or or detracting from the CEO two levels of the planet.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, if you have paper and are using

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Speaker 1: it responsibly and not over using it, then you know

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Speaker 1: it's a sustainable resource. So there's something to be said

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Speaker 1: for a piece of paper as opposed to say, a computer,

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Speaker 1: which is going to draw a power constantly. I mean,

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Speaker 1: unless you've unplugged it or you're using a uh one

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Speaker 1: of the power strips that can prevent vampire power from

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Speaker 1: going on your your computer is always drawing some power.

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Speaker 1: Vampire power for the uninitiated, is um say you have

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Speaker 1: your computer plugged into a power strip and you've turned

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Speaker 1: it off so that you can go to work the computer.

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Speaker 1: That is right, right, that's a good point. That's a

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Speaker 1: good point. You turn your computer off, that left the

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Speaker 1: power strip on your computer is still going to be

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Speaker 1: drawing some power. As a matter of fact, if you

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Speaker 1: if you have a desktop computer like a tower and

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Speaker 1: you take the side of it off for the front

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Speaker 1: of it off where you can actually see, you'll probably

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Speaker 1: see a couple of the little LEDs inside that tell

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Speaker 1: you that there's something going on. Um. It's basically keeping

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Speaker 1: the machine running. It. The same could be said for

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Speaker 1: your TV. People don't want to wait for the TV

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Speaker 1: to come on, so the manufacturers built in you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: the capacity to store energy so that you can turn

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Speaker 1: it on and it pops on very quickly. Well, the

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Speaker 1: thing is, it takes electricity to do that, you know,

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Speaker 1: very low flow, and that's called vampire power. If you

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Speaker 1: turn the power strip off, it stops drawing power. Unplugging

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Speaker 1: it will really stop it. Yeah and um. And and

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Speaker 1: then we should point out that even the vampire power,

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Speaker 1: although it is you know, a constant thing, um, it's

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Speaker 1: not drawing nearly the same amount of power as your

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Speaker 1: computer would when it's running, especially if it's running like

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Speaker 1: full speed, like running a very heavy application. UM. So

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Speaker 1: when we're talking about computers, were really looking at things

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Speaker 1: like energy efficiency. Uh, you know, whether or not you

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Speaker 1: are using any of the sleep or idle modes, or

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Speaker 1: if you're turning your computer off. Um. And also not

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Speaker 1: only that. But when you're talking about online applications now

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Speaker 1: you have to look at, as Sandra pointed out, data

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Speaker 1: centers and data centers. They okay, for those who don't know,

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Speaker 1: a data center is essentially a collection of servers, and

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Speaker 1: it could be a small center. And when when I

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Speaker 1: say small, most people would think of a small center.

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Speaker 1: Like most people the I T. Baz would say, like,

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Speaker 1: a hundred servers is kind of small. Google has has

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Speaker 1: data centers that with the servers that number in the

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Speaker 1: thousands and tens of thousands, and they've got these enormous

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Speaker 1: buildings their size of several warehouses put together, filled with

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Speaker 1: these machines all running, their generating tons of heat, they're

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Speaker 1: consuming lots of electricity, and they always have to be

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Speaker 1: on because if they go off, your service goes away.

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Speaker 1: That's that's no more Gmail. That's no more access to

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Speaker 1: any of the files that you've stored in the cloud,

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Speaker 1: that's no more Search exactly. Yeah. So the thing about

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Speaker 1: that is that those machines are constantly running, and there

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Speaker 1: are probably at least hundreds of thousands, if not millions,

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Speaker 1: of machines doing that at anyone given time. And the

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Speaker 1: Internet is made up of computers talking to one another, right,

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Speaker 1: and and a computer running, uh, you know, actively running

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Speaker 1: can consume anywhere between I don't know what, like like

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Speaker 1: a hundred and something wats per hour to up to

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Speaker 1: three hundred depending on the machine, maybe even more, I

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Speaker 1: guess if you've got to really power hungry device. But

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Speaker 1: so you gotta think there are these thousands and thousands

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Speaker 1: of machines that are running all the time. If you're

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Speaker 1: using a lot of online services, UM, then you're contributing

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Speaker 1: to the need for more machines, which means that you know,

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Speaker 1: you're indirectly you are contributing to an environmental impact. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: what what can we do about this? Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you don't use it, I don't think they're going

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Speaker 1: to be fewer computers out there. But what we can

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Speaker 1: really hope for is that these companies will start looking

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Speaker 1: into ways to um to power their data centers in

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Speaker 1: a renewable fashion that's not dependent upon you know, traditional

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Speaker 1: electricity power plants to generate electricity. Google's doing that. As

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Speaker 1: a matter of FACTUM, I have some family up in

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Speaker 1: the Northwest, and um Google has they generated headlines generated

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Speaker 1: sorry for the pun generated headlines. A few a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago because they were building a giant data

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Speaker 1: center UM in a town near Portlands called the Dolls UM.

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Speaker 1: The thing is, you'd think, wow, that's you know that

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Speaker 1: you look at the the Google Earth view of this

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Speaker 1: place and you go, man, that's got to have tons

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Speaker 1: and tons of computers. And I'm and I'm sure it does. However,

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Speaker 1: it's also along the Columbia River and the from what

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Speaker 1: I understand that that data center draws a lot of

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Speaker 1: its power from water, right, hydroelectric power exactly, So you know,

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Speaker 1: there are there are things that they're doing there and uh,

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Speaker 1: I believe a solar power to to try to offset

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Speaker 1: some of the uh fossil fuel costs the electricity there.

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Speaker 1: And and also I just wrote a blog post about

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Speaker 1: this recently. As of the recording of this podcast. By

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Speaker 1: the time this goes live, it will actually be old news,

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Speaker 1: but you can always go back and look at it. UM.

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Speaker 1: But I did a blog post about this patent that

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Speaker 1: Google applied for and was granted for a floating data center,

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Speaker 1: and it's essentially a data center on a boat, and

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Speaker 1: the full design incorporates UM some devices that generate electricity

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Speaker 1: through the motion of water so both waves and tidal motions,

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Speaker 1: and UM and also uses the water as a coolant

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Speaker 1: to keep the servers cool, so it doesn't have to

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Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't. It can just utilize the power

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Speaker 1: of the sea to keep it going and it's not

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Speaker 1: drawing power from a power plant like most data centers are. Well, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, Google actually has its own organization in house

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Speaker 1: that looks at renewable energy sources. It's called ARIS lesson

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Speaker 1: C and UM I actually this had come up before

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Speaker 1: we had started talked about the idea of writing an

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Speaker 1: article or doing a podcast about this subject. Before UM

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Speaker 1: and UM I got some information on that. Um Eric Tetzel,

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Speaker 1: who's the program manager for ARIS lesson C, said that

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Speaker 1: a Google search takes three ten thousands of a kill

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Speaker 1: a lot, which generates about point two grams of c

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Speaker 1: O two every time you search Google. So you know,

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Speaker 1: it's small, it's a very small impact. However, you know

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Speaker 1: how many people are searching Google every day any point

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Speaker 1: of the day. Yeah, sure, so, I mean if you

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Speaker 1: think about that and how much that search energy is,

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Speaker 1: you know the cost of that search energy. Google and

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Speaker 1: other companies have good reason to look into other sources

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Speaker 1: because I mean environmental impact aside, it's got a financial impact.

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Speaker 1: So if they could find some renewable sources, especially non

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Speaker 1: polluting ones that you know, make them look better, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a win exactly, it's a it's a good

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Speaker 1: move for them. And and just like we were talking

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Speaker 1: with the paper, with all the additional factors that you

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Speaker 1: have to take into account, the same things true with computers.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you're ultimately you're gonna have to think, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what did it cost environmentally speaking to produce this computer?

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Speaker 1: What did it cost environmentally speaking to build the data centers? Um?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's it's these are costs that are essentially

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Speaker 1: one time costs for per machine, just like a book

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Speaker 1: is a one time cost. But it's like, again, you

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Speaker 1: start looking at this big picture situation where everything gets

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Speaker 1: linked in together, and there's there's not really an easy

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Speaker 1: solution because there's no real way where you can just

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Speaker 1: you can't point to one thing and say this is

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Speaker 1: the source of the problem because it's so much larger

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Speaker 1: than that. Yeah, yeah, and uh, I mean there's more

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Speaker 1: than the carbon footprint of manufacturing a computer, let alone

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Speaker 1: taking it apart. I mean, so many of them end

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Speaker 1: up in landfills because people don't recycle them. There's let,

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Speaker 1: there's cadmium, There's all kinds of stuff there, uh, and

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Speaker 1: it gets into the groundwater. There's the environmental impact of that. Right.

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Speaker 1: The more often you replace your computer, uh, and the

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Speaker 1: more computers you own that need to be replaced, that

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Speaker 1: just adds to that impact. So there's something to be

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Speaker 1: said uh for that too. So what we're getting down

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Speaker 1: to here is that there's no easy answer of saying

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Speaker 1: is paper better than using a computer or vice versa. Um.

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Speaker 1: What we can say is there are certain behaviors you

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Speaker 1: can follow that will help decrease your impact on the environment.

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Speaker 1: And if everyone does this that that does make a difference. UM.

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Speaker 1: But we can't, you know, we can't just sit there

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Speaker 1: and sign off on one versus the other. So using

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Speaker 1: things like recycled paper, um, you know, only using paper

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Speaker 1: when you need to, that kind of thing, as well

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Speaker 1: as UH, if you're using your computer and you're going

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Speaker 1: to be away from your computer for a couple of hours,

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Speaker 1: it's okay to go ahead and turn that off. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The everyone want to worry is about whether or not

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Speaker 1: the spike that you were that you experienced when you

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Speaker 1: first turn a computer on, if that if that negates

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Speaker 1: the effect you would have of turning it off. In

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Speaker 1: most cases, it does not. In most cases, especially the

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Speaker 1: longer you keep it off, the greater the benefit is.

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Speaker 1: So if you are going to bed at night and

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Speaker 1: you're not gonna be up and using the computer for

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Speaker 1: eight or ten hours, turning it off is probably the

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Speaker 1: best choice. And if you can't turn it off, or

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Speaker 1: you know you just you can't, you're just not going

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Speaker 1: to Using a sleep mode um can also really really

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Speaker 1: help out. A sleep mode might be just a couple

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Speaker 1: of percentage points of what the active mode would be.

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Speaker 1: And don't assume that a screen saver is the same

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Speaker 1: thing as a sleep mode, because yeah, it actually can

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Speaker 1: generate a lot of it can drain a lot of

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Speaker 1: power because I mean, you know you're running you're running

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Speaker 1: a program, is what you're doing, and it's displaying something

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Speaker 1: a monitor. So if you have a desktop computer and

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Speaker 1: a monitor is keeping the monitor a week, right, So

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Speaker 1: don't just you know, it'll go to screen saver and

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Speaker 1: that'll that'll save money. No, go ahead and put it

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Speaker 1: onto sleep mode. I mean it might mean that it

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Speaker 1: takes a little longer for it to boot up, but

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Speaker 1: it you know, that's a small price to pay, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and you'll be saving money on electricity bills. Yep. You

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Speaker 1: can also unplug a lot of your electronics when you're

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Speaker 1: not in use, or you can get smart power strips

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Speaker 1: that will do it for you. They can. A lot

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Speaker 1: of the power strips now come with the ability. Now

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Speaker 1: they're more expensive, I should point that out, um, but

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Speaker 1: they tell the ability to go, oh, well, this thing

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Speaker 1: hasn't been on for half an hour, I need to

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Speaker 1: just turn this off. And and it's an upfront cost

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Speaker 1: that eventually will be offset by the savings you you make,

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Speaker 1: assuming that you know you're using it appropriately and you

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Speaker 1: know that it's that it's that it's a device that's

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Speaker 1: going to last a few years. It may take a while,

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Speaker 1: because when we're talking about savings, we're talking about you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe a couple of dollars per year, which doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: like you know, it's not not really that remarkable, but

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Speaker 1: you are making a much lower impact on the environ

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Speaker 1: that's true, that's true. I think what we really need

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Speaker 1: to emphasize is that what you do, you need to

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Speaker 1: do responsibly, you know, if you if you behave responsibly,

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Speaker 1: not wastefully. Um, you know, I don't think any of

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Speaker 1: us are going to be able to give up our

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Speaker 1: paper and computers anytime soon, and they're just too embedded

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Speaker 1: in our our daily lives. I think the best thing

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Speaker 1: to do is sort of mitigate and um, you know,

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