1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: When you look up at the night sky, you are 2 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: casting your eyes on billions of star systems. It's a 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: beautiful view, and it always makes me wonder about something. 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: If the universe is filled with life, big, if, and 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: if some of it is intelligent and curious, then are 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: they looking back at us right now? Are we some 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: bright dot in an alien sky. It's like that moment 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: in the movies where someone is looking at a distant 9 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: building through a telescope only to spot someone else looking 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: back at them. If only other planets were close enough 11 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: for us to spot alien astronomers gazing back at us 12 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: like a cosmic meat cute. But even if we can't 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: see them, they might be out there as ignorant about 14 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: us as we are, of them, staring up into those 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: alien nights and wondering if we are out there. Or 16 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: maybe they're listening to an alien physicist on an alien podcast, 17 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: or maybe they don't look or listen at all, and 18 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: they experienced the universe in very different ways. Hi, I'm Daniel. 19 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: I'm a particle a physicist and a professor at you 20 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: See Irvine, and I hope that there are alien particle 21 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: physicists out there wondering what we have discovered and eager 22 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: to share some notes and welcome to the podcast. Daniel 23 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of I Heart 24 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: Media in which we explore all the questions being asked 25 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: by humans. Whether you're a particle physicist, a dentist, or 26 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: a long haul driver, we all wonder about how the 27 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: universe works, and we all long to understand it. And 28 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: on this podcast we ask those questions and do our 29 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: best to answer them. But we don't pretend to know 30 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: everything or to have all of the answers. One of 31 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: our goals is to bring you up to speed, to 32 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,399 Speaker 1: the very forefront of human knowledge, so that you can 33 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: share a spot with the rest of us looking into 34 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,399 Speaker 1: the abyss of everything that humanity does not yet understand, 35 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: because we want to know how the universe works. We 36 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: are a curious species, always wondering, and one of the 37 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: things that we wonder is why do we wonder so much? 38 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: Is it a natural product of being intelligent problem solving 39 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: creatures or is it just us? We see other animals 40 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: on Earth being curious. Dogs, cats, monkeys, dolphins all outwardly 41 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: act as if they are intrigued by new things, by puzzles, 42 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: they have not yet solved, which is why philosophers have 43 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: long wondered what's it like to see the world through 44 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: the eyes of a cat, or with the nose of 45 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: a dog, or the echolocation of a dolphin. One of 46 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: the most famous papers in philosophy is called what is 47 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: it like to be a bat? The short version is 48 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: we'll never know because a bat likely experiences the world 49 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,399 Speaker 1: very differently than we do. But bats don't have our intelligence. 50 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: So cast your mind back out into space and wonder 51 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: about that intelligent alien creature or blob or tree or 52 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: floating ball of plasma that might be looking back at us. 53 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: Can we imagine what their experience is like? So on 54 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: today's episode, we'll ask the question, what's it like to 55 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: be an alien? Obviously it's not a question we can 56 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: answer today, but that doesn't mean that we can't make 57 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: some progress. We can turn our minds back to the 58 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: Earth and study the diversity of life here. It's random outcomes, 59 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: it's consistent convergence is it's diversity and homogeneity, and maybe 60 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: gain some insight into how aliens perceive and experience the universe. 61 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: My co host and friend Jorge is on vacation this week, 62 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: So I've invited a guest to come and join me 63 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 1: in today's conversation about the alien experience. Dr Arik Kirshenbaum 64 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 1: is a zoologist at the University of Cambridge. He studies 65 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: the evolution of acoustic communications in different animals, particularly the 66 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: role that communication plays in the evolution of cooperation. He 67 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: works with a number of different species, including wolves, dolphins, 68 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: and higher axes, and he's the author of the book 69 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: The Zoologist Guide to the Galaxy. What Animals on Earth 70 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: Reveal about Aliens. Now, we can't study aliens in the flesh, 71 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: but if the principles that guided the development of biological 72 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: life on Earth natural selection also apply elsewhere, then we 73 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: can expect it may produce similar results. Not everything on Earth, 74 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: of course, is inevitable. Some of the nature is random chance, 75 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: media strikes and other pivot points. But some things crop 76 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: up often enough that they may be inevitable even on 77 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: other planets. I read this book and learned lot, and 78 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,559 Speaker 1: so I was excited to chat with Dr Kristen Boum. 79 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: So it's my pleasure to welcome Eric to the podcast. 80 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: Thank you very much for joining us, Thank you for 81 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 1: inviting me. So I love that on your website you 82 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: list the organisms that you study, and there's wolves, dolphins, 83 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: higher axes, and aliens. Is it typical for zoologists to 84 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: think about aliens? Is astro zoology and burgeoning field or 85 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: are you the pioneer? It's not typical. It's not a 86 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,559 Speaker 1: burgeoning field. And you know, the field of astrobiology is big. 87 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 1: The field of astrobiology is big and really burgeoning because 88 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: you know, some of the some of the new developments 89 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: that we've had, both in terms of instruments like James 90 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: Webb and discoveries that can be made about the atmospheres 91 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: of other planets and things like that has really pushed 92 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: forward interest in the origin of life and and and 93 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: the possible chemical nature of life on other planets. But 94 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: also it's not just the instrumentation. You know, there's been 95 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: a lot of breakthroughs really in new theoretical ideas about 96 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: how life could arise. And so there are a lot 97 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: of astrobologists around. There aren't really very many as rozoologists. 98 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: And you know that's because, like you said that we 99 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: can't actually observe any any alien animals, so so one 100 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: might think as the much point. Really it's a bit 101 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: of a waste of a career, but no as a 102 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: as an evolutionary biologist, which is what I really am. 103 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: The conclusions that I draw about evolutionary biology, they're generally applicable, 104 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: you know, they apply on on other planets. I think 105 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: people are going to start to come around to this idea. 106 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: The understanding the ecology and the ecosystem and the evolution 107 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: of life on other planets is something we have to 108 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: start thinking about now that we're expecting to discover planets 109 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: with some form of life on them. This is something 110 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: we can't ignore forever. And I really appreciate that your 111 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: book makes an argument. You know, a lot of biology 112 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: books I read are fun and they're studied with cool 113 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: examples that are interesting to learn about, but they don't 114 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: always manage to tie them together into a coherent story. 115 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: So briefly, is that the argument for your book that 116 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,559 Speaker 1: the process of evolution that occurs on Earth is likely 117 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: to also guide the evolution of animals and critters on 118 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: other planets so that we can make educated guesses about 119 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: what they likely look like. Yes, it's and it's even 120 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: a little bit deeper than that, because natural selection is 121 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: just a process. Right we've known about natural selection for 122 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty years, and it's just one of 123 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: those things that's inevitable. It's going to happen everywhere. It's 124 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: a very simple process. But what's happened in the last 125 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years is that biologists have not just 126 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: understood how evolution works, but they've understood that there are 127 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: a huge range of other phenomena that arise once you 128 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: start having natural selection in a collection of life forms, 129 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: and the interactions between those life forms are really important. 130 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: The way those life forms interact with each other, that's 131 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: what's driving the diversity on this planet. That's why we've 132 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: got so many different plants, and so many different animals, 133 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: and so many different beetles. It's because of the way 134 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: they interact with each other, and so understanding how those 135 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: interactions are driving diversity give us some much more a 136 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: much deeper understanding of those processes. And if those processes, 137 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: those deeper processes are also taking place on other planets, 138 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: then we can start drawing some really quite deep conclusions. 139 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: Just give you one example, the simplest example in my 140 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: book I think is predation. Right, all life needs energy. 141 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: We know all life needs energy. That's just a physical constraint. 142 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: Where you're going to get your energy. Might get it 143 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,239 Speaker 1: from the sun, you might get it from other places. 144 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: But there's lots of energy around in the other life 145 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: on your planet, and sooner or later someone is going 146 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: to start taking advantage of other life forms and and 147 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: and start eating them. And in that sense, by thinking 148 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: about that, the way that the organisms interact with each other, 149 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: we can predict things like, well, there are going to 150 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: be predators, and there are going to be prey on 151 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: alien planets. I really enjoyed this line in your book. 152 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: I was going to call it out later. You write, 153 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: predation is universal because no ecosystem can exist for long 154 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: without someone trying to take a bite out of somebody else. 155 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,319 Speaker 1: The selected pressure on acquiring as much energy as possible 156 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: is just too strong. That strikes me as maybe the 157 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: experience of somebody who grew up in a household with 158 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: brothers and sisters, you know, competing for enough food at 159 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: the dinner table. But it's interesting because it's not an 160 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: argument that I've heard anywhere else. Is essentially seems to 161 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: be arguing that complexity arises also from interaction and competition 162 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: that you're like unlikely to find an alien planet with 163 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: a really sophisticated intelligent creature and nothing else, right, an 164 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: ecosystem with just like a single organism, is it is 165 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: that the argument that you're making, I think that's that's 166 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: very true, and now that works on a couple of 167 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: different levels. The thing about natural selection, of course, is 168 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 1: that it has no foresight. So organisms don't evolve to 169 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: be the best they can. They evolve according to the 170 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: conditions in which they find them. If the conditions are simple, 171 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: if the challenges they're facing a simple then they will 172 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: evolve simple traits. Um if the challenges facing them are 173 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: very complex, there may be an advantage to have more 174 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,439 Speaker 1: complex behavioral, more complex structure. So the complexity of individuals 175 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,479 Speaker 1: in an ecosystem really arises directly out of the complexity 176 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: of the challenges they face, and those challenges are almost 177 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: always to do with interactions with other organisms and other 178 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: few other things as well physical environment. But basically what 179 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: drives the complexity of life is the complexity of the 180 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: of the interactions. So yeah, you're not going to get 181 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: intelligent technological aliens evolving in deep space, for instance, which 182 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: is a bit of a trope in science fiction. You know, 183 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: You've got these aliens floating through space and they're super intelligent, 184 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: but that's not going to happen because their ancestors never 185 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: had any challenges to overcome and they know and any 186 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: interactions they had to deal with, and so that that 187 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: that kind of intelligence isn't isn't going to evolve. So yeah, yeah, 188 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: I'm going with the interactions as being the key thing, 189 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: and those interactions have to be with basically objects of 190 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: another species. You can't just have interactions within a species. 191 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: We're competing with your brothers and sisters for enough milk 192 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: from your mother, for example. Well you can, but the 193 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: implications of that are that some organisms will develop some 194 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: techniques to deal with with that situation, and other organisms 195 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: will develop different techniques to deal with with those challenges, 196 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: and then you get a divergence and then you get speciation. 197 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: And so it's almost inevitable that as the challenge has 198 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: become more complex, you're going to get different different organisms. 199 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: A system with all the same organism with complex challenges 200 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: is very unlikely to persist for a long period of time. 201 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 1: So you mentioned science fiction, Is that your experience when 202 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: you read science fiction that agreetes on you because it 203 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: doesn't reflect sort of the best thinking about how evolution 204 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: might play out on other planets. Are you generally unimpressed, 205 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: or if you read a few things that you think 206 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: are actually insightful and contribute to the space of ideas, 207 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: I don't I don't mind. I like science fiction, and 208 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: I see its role as being a particular role, and 209 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: its role is not really to inform on scientific hypotheses. 210 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 1: And there are cases where people have made a really 211 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: big effort to try and and and explore all kinds 212 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: of potential ideas and potential situations using science fiction, and 213 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 1: that's always welcome. But you know, I mean, I love 214 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: a good Star Trek, and I don't really think that 215 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: it's got much to do with what aliens are like. 216 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: But that's okay that you know, that's that's not the 217 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: end of the world. Well, Star Trek is, of course 218 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: one of the most ridiculous examples, you know, humanoids that 219 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: speak with sort of strange accents and funny terms of 220 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,719 Speaker 1: phrase and have wigglely boardheads. Are you familiar with the 221 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: work of a. Greg Egan. He is a fantastic book 222 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: that's one of my favorites, called Diaspora, in which they 223 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: discover a water world that has a single organism in it, 224 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: an algae that weaves itself into these weighing carpets that 225 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: can break and reconnect in ways that actually make them 226 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: a Turing machine. So that the complexity arises from the 227 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: arrangement of fairly simple organisms. And you know, it's this 228 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: kind of are they intelligent? Can we actually penetrate to them, 229 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: can we understand what their experiences are they experiencing anything? 230 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,119 Speaker 1: Because the complexity arises from the combination of many organisms 231 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: rather than inside a single organism. And this is a uh, 232 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: this is another trope that that's quite interesting and has 233 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: been explored by a number of science fiction authors. But 234 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: again from an evolutionary perspective, the question has got to 235 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: be why are these algae or Turing machine? How did 236 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: that actually happen? You know, how did that come about? 237 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: Because presumably they started with with simple algae that didn't 238 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: have this complex structure. Somehow that complex structure must have 239 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: come about. Now, did it come about because the algae 240 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: that are organized into a complex structure were more successful 241 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: and out competed the other algae. If so, there's a 242 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: good mechanism that that that could have happened. But if 243 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: they're just floating there and there's nothing much going on, 244 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: it's it's hard to see how that could happen. So 245 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 1: Fred Hoyle, sure you know Fred Hoyle, the famous astronomer 246 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: or a fantastic science fiction book back in the fifties, 247 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: The Black Cloud. It's really one of the best science 248 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: fiction books ever written, and I love it dearly. But 249 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: in the in the sort of introduction the forward to 250 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: it to a recent edition that was written, Richard Dawkins 251 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: absolutely toll or Fred Hoyle to pieces. He's dead now, 252 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: of course, but tore him to pieces over his unrealistic 253 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: biological assumptions that a cloud of gas floating through interstellar 254 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: space could become sensured. There's just no challenges facing it, 255 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:22,359 Speaker 1: and no process of successive and progressive and gradual increasing complexity. 256 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: That's what we've got to explain. If we want to 257 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: explain alien life, that's what we've got to explain. So 258 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: we're all, of course very interested in alien life and 259 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: how it might arise, And of course we're all stuck 260 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: here on Earth with no other examples to draw from. 261 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: And you often hear people complain that this is you know, 262 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: a single example and equals one. We don't know if 263 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: what we have seen is typical or unusual. And in 264 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: your book you take a different approach to this problem. 265 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: Can you explain for our listeners how we escape the 266 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: sort of in equals one prison. Well, the n equals 267 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: one criticism is slightly disingenuous and equals one what one planet? 268 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: That seems a little unrealistic since there are so many 269 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: different forms on this planet. Really, what they're saying, I 270 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: think is an equals one biochemistry, because that's really what 271 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: unites all life on Earth, and we only have one 272 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: example of a system of a biochemical system that can 273 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: produce life. Apart from the biochemistry, there's sufficient diversity here 274 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: that there's no justification for saying it's only one example. 275 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: Is it a problem that we only have one example 276 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: of one kind of biochemistry when when talking about alien life, Well, 277 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: it's not a problem for me because everything I do 278 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: totally ignores the biochemistry. You know, when you think about 279 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: about evolution and natural selection and evolutionary biology, it doesn't 280 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: really matter on what biochemical framework organisms are based. They 281 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: can be based on DNA, they could be based on 282 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: some other some other structure. People like to ask whether 283 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: carbon chemistry is necessary. I mean, most people think that 284 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: carbon chemistry probably is necessary, but that's from theoretical considerations, 285 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: not from empirical observations. So I mean, I think you 286 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: can criticize descriptions of intelligent life technological life on the 287 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: basis of their only being one example, and that becomes 288 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: particularly problematic when we think about language. So we only 289 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: have one example of language, and that really is a problem. 290 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: But I think to say that we only have one 291 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: example of life is not really true at all. So 292 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: the argument you're making is that we have many examples 293 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 1: of life responding to similar circumstances, and for example, coming 294 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: up with similar solutions wings on bats and wings on 295 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: birds and wings on insects, for example, suggests that flight 296 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: might be a common outcome of animal evolution. Is that 297 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: the argument that's right? And if you want to take 298 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: the unequals one complaint or objections seriously and honestly, then 299 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: you would have to ask yourself, does the fact that 300 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: birds and bats and insects all have wings is that 301 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: fact somehow the result of some commonality the equals one commonality, 302 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: the fact that they are all on the planet Earth, 303 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: or the fact that they are all based on carbon chemistry. 304 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: Is that does that really explain this commonality of wings? 305 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: And it's almost impossible to answer yesterday. It's very hard 306 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 1: to see how the fact that wings evolved independently three 307 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: times could really possibly be based on the commonality between 308 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: these organisms. The only thing they have in common is 309 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: that there are bilaterally symmetrical, so they have one wing 310 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: or two wings on each side of their body because 311 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: they have an access of symmetry down the middle. They 312 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: have a left side and the right side, and that 313 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 1: certainly is sheard. All those three organisms evolved from a 314 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: common ancestor that was symmetrical. So that's potential argument. But 315 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 1: my counter argument that is that symmetry is so incredibly 316 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 1: useful that we're going to see it on other planets 317 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: as well. So to make the argument that the kind 318 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: of things we see on Earth are likely to also 319 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: crop up in alien animals, what assumptions are we making exactly? 320 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 1: Let's be explicit about them. Were assuming that evolution is 321 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: a universal process that happens here, it's going to happen everywhere. 322 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: Aren't you also requiring that the conditions are similar? I mean, 323 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: evolution is as you say, in response to the circumstances, 324 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: are we assuming then that there are rocky planets, that 325 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: there's air for things to learn to fly through? For example, 326 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: I think the two kinds of assumptions based on what 327 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: you mean by life being similar to life on Earth, 328 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: I think that there are assumptions that support the claim 329 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: that evolution and natural selection and all these processes that 330 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: we understand very well from life on Earth, that they 331 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: will apply on other planets. There are certain assumptions there, 332 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: and those are assumptions like the basic assumptions of natural selection, 333 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: that organisms reproduce, that organisms vary, that they're different in 334 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: their characteristics, and that they can pass that difference on 335 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: to their offspring, and that those differences have an effect 336 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: on on how they survive and reproduce. And those are 337 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: the basic assumptions of natural selection. As long as those 338 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: assumptions are met, natural selection will occur. Can I stop 339 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: you there and ask you about one of those passing 340 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: information onto your offspring mean that fundamentally is rooted in 341 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: the biochemistry of life on Earth, right? Can you imagine 342 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: a different fundamental biochemistry for a life that has a 343 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: different sort of process for passing along information that might 344 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: lead to widely different sort of higher level evolution. Unfortunately, 345 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:20,439 Speaker 1: if that condition isn't met, then we've lost the most 346 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: important feature of natural selection, which is that complexity can accumulate. 347 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: If organisms reproduce to duplicate whatever word you want to use, 348 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: but don't pass on their own traits to their duplicates, 349 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: then complexity cannot accumulate and you'll just be stuck in 350 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: a soup of chemicals, never becoming life. So I say 351 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: that these assumptions are our conditions for natural selection applying 352 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: and occurring. But if they don't apply, and if it 353 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: doesn't occur, then complexity cannot accumulate. So the conditions for 354 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: natural selection occurring are are It's a little bit unfair 355 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: of me because I am actually assuming that they are met. 356 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: But then the other thing is the other direction to 357 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: take it is that just because natural selection in theory 358 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: occurs doesn't necessarily mean that life will achieve the kind 359 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: of complexity we see on Earth. So, for instance, people 360 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: have speculated that there might be life on the surface 361 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: of Titan, and Titan with its lots of flowing liquid 362 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: water and rivers and lakes and mountains and so on, 363 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: and the fact that this liquid is not water, is irrelevant, 364 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: really invented by a chemistry based on ethane or something 365 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: like that. The problem is that whatever it is minus 366 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: a d eighty degrees on the surface of Titan or 367 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: chemical reactions will be extremely slow, and in that case, 368 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: even if there is life on Titan, it really won't 369 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 1: have had time to evolve the kind of complexity that 370 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: that that we see on Earth. Life existed on us 371 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: for over three and a half billion years, and for 372 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: the first three billion years it was very, very very simple, 373 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 1: So it really took a long time for complex life 374 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: to get off the ground. So just because these conditions 375 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: are met doesn't mean will necessarily see something like Earth. 376 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: But isn't that another example of the inequals one argument. 377 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: I mean, we know that life started fairly rapidly on 378 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: Earth and that it didn't become complex very rapidly. Can 379 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: we conclude from that that, you know, one, life is 380 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: likely to start in other places because it happened rapidly 381 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,159 Speaker 1: on Earth and that complexity does take a long time, 382 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: or were we just unlucky? So the argument that we 383 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: don't know how likely it is for non alive chemicals 384 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: to become alive, we don't know how how likely that 385 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: spontaneous change is. Has has been a very good argument 386 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,959 Speaker 1: for the equals one position, and things have changed a 387 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,239 Speaker 1: little bit in recent years for a couple of reasons. One, 388 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: of course, we've discovered so many planets. I mean, there's 389 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: just so many planets. We never thought there would be 390 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: billions upon billions of Earth like planets in the galaxy. 391 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: So the numbers game changes a little, but it doesn't alter, 392 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: of course, the fundamental objection that maybe life on Earth 393 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: was a tremendous fluke and it's just not replicated anywhere else. 394 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: But recently, and as I said that, the field of 395 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: astrobiology has become very, very big, and a lot of 396 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: people working, there's a lot of scientists working on the 397 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: question of origin of life, coming up with a lot 398 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: of hypotheses that seemed to indicate that there are potentially 399 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: many routes to life arising from non life, different by 400 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: chemical propositions, different ways of getting chemicals to combine stably 401 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: and make reproducing molecules, and and and so on, and 402 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: the general feeling, although of course it's not proven, is 403 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: that that the probability of life arising from nonlife is 404 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: probably not all that unlikely. Wonderful. Well, I have a 405 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: lot more questions about how that all works, But first 406 00:22:47,280 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. All right, we're back and 407 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: we're talking to Dr Eric Curson bomb about what aliens 408 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: might look like and how they might crawl across the 409 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: surface of their alien planets. And we've been talking about 410 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: the likelihood of life starting on other planets, and also 411 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: the likelihood that it looks similar to ours, whether it 412 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: shares with us movement or communication or intelligence or these 413 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: kinds of features. And I want to get back to 414 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: a question I think I interrupted your answer, and I 415 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: want to hear more your thoughts on this about the 416 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: likelihood that life arises in our kind of context. You're 417 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: absolutely right that there are billions of planets just in 418 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: our galaxy, and many of them are rocky, and many 419 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: of them are likely to be in a region where 420 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: there's enough solar radiation to make water liquid on the surface, etcetera, etcetera. 421 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: So there are many situations like Earth where life might arise. 422 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: But does that mean that's the most likely place for 423 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: life to arise? What about places like underground oceans that 424 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 1: we have even in our solar system? Do we know 425 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: if alien life arises, that it's most likely to arise 426 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: in our kind of circumstances. We certainly don't um and 427 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: as you say, underground oceans are tremendously interesting environment where 428 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: we would love to explore. We are, of course somewhat 429 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: limited at the moment that with our tools that are 430 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 1: capable of looking at the taking spectrographic measurements of the 431 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: composition of of the atmospheres of alien planets, that somewhat 432 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: limits us two planets with reasonable atmospheres, you know, in 433 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: the future. Who knows. The first indications of the sub 434 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: underground oceans on on en Seladus and Europa came from observing, 435 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, plumes of water escaping from from underground. That 436 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: may even be possible in the future with with extra 437 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: planets to imagine, but it's possible. And there's been some 438 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: very very interesting and peculiar suggestions from scientists, from astrobiologists 439 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: about different places that that life could exist study I've 440 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: heard recently a suggestion that even gas planets like like 441 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: Neptune could possibly host a band or sphere of liquid 442 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,959 Speaker 1: water at some level in their atmosphere, so that there 443 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: are many places where conditions for life might be right, 444 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: and because we're still we're still far from finding out 445 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: exactly what pathways led to life arising on Earth, I 446 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: think it's a little bit optimistic to be to be 447 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: examining those weird environments as well and trying to figure 448 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: out how life might have arisen on Neptune or or 449 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 1: or in Zeladus. But we'll get that. But in the 450 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: context of the arguments in your book, for example, it 451 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: seems like the assumptions were making are that evolution happens 452 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: and all the details of you they are previously, and 453 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: also that we're talking about sort of a similar kind 454 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: of context, right, that evolution happens in the kind of 455 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: biological context that we've experienced, and and we don't need 456 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 1: to assume that that's dominant or that it doesn't happen 457 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: in other context to explore what life might be like 458 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: on an alien, rocky planet with water. So two things, 459 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: two things to say to that. One is that when 460 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 1: you say that the context and I presume, I mean 461 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: things like, well, the fact that organisms are close to 462 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: each other, that they can interact, that they're not spread 463 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: out over obscenely larger area of volume. That's actually quite 464 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: an easy assumption to make because again and said before 465 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: about accumulating complexity, if those organisms aren't interacting, they're not 466 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: going to evolve. They're not going to evolve into into 467 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: the kind of complexity that we see. Then maybe alien 468 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 1: equivalent to bacteria spotting it here and there on the 469 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: surface of some planet that can't interact with each other, 470 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: but there's no reason for them to evolve into more 471 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: complex life forms if they never interact with anything. So 472 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: I think that it's true that there are certain assumptions 473 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 1: about about interactions and so on that I make, But 474 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: that's with the hindsight, with the retrospective assumption that there 475 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: will be complex life there and not just bacterial life. 476 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: But the other thing that I want to say that 477 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: I always have to say because it's really important to 478 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: be humble about these things. There will undoubtedly be examples 479 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: where I am completely wrong. I have no doubt about that, 480 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: But those examples are gonna be really rare. Right. The 481 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: galaxy is full of rocky planets like Earth with water 482 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: on the surface, and it's full of carbon chemicals, and 483 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: life which shares a lot in common with life on Earth, 484 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: will be common. Sure, they'll be there'll be weird stuff. 485 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: There'll be weird stuff that it's never thought of and 486 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: no one has ever thought of, but that's going to 487 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: be rare. Water is exceptionally common in the universe. Common 488 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: chemicals are exceptionally common in the universe, and so I 489 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: think it makes a lot of sense that something rather 490 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: like what we see here is not going to be uncommon. Absolutely, 491 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: And the argument you're making seems to be built on 492 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: these convergences, these suggestions that these kind of things happen 493 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: several times on Earth, so we don't have just any 494 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: equals one. These are things that seem more inevitable than rare. 495 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: But there are also examples here on Earth of pivot 496 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: points and wins when faith took us one way and 497 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: it might have gone another. You know, we have these 498 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: moments in our lives. You know, when I was deciding 499 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: where to go to grad school, I basically flipped a 500 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: coin between two universities, and because I went to one, 501 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: I ended up meeting my wife and I have these 502 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: kids in My life would be very different if I 503 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: hadn't gone in those other directions, you know. So can 504 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: we also look at the history of life on Earth 505 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 1: and identify those pivot points and say, if this thing 506 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: about life on Earth is unlikely to be found somewhere 507 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: else because it arose from this random weirdness, can we 508 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: also make those kind of observations, not just find the commonalities. Well? Possibly, 509 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 1: But I loved your example. If the coin had gone 510 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: the other way, no disrespect your wife and kids, you 511 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: probably would have found another wife and had other kids, right, 512 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: and it still would have happened. And in that sense, 513 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: I think it's a pretty good illustration of of of 514 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: the convergence. Are there pivot points on Earth that led 515 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: to very particular configurations of life on Earth? It's hard 516 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: to think of that. I think the major pivot points 517 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: on Earth, so the major mass extinctions, which are really 518 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: the ones that people talk about. If you think about 519 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: the Permian mass extinction, which was huge, like n of 520 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: species went extinct. When life rebounded after the Permian mass extinction, 521 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: it really wasn't all that different, It really wasn't. I 522 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: mean certainly that that that mass extinction was a huge 523 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: push and in the way that diversity developed and evolved 524 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: over over the millions of years afterwards, and there's no 525 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: doubt that we wouldn't have dinosaurs, and we wouldn't have primmates, 526 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: we wouldn't have humans if it hadn't have been for 527 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: the Permian mass extinction. But if you look at the 528 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: animals that lived afterwards and the animals that lived before, 529 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: they're different, But all the niches are basically still the same, 530 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: basically very very similar sort of stuff going on. So 531 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: clearly there are physical characteristics of Earth that determine what 532 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: kind of life we have. The density of the atmosphere, 533 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: the transparency of the atmosphere as well as a huge 534 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: is a hugely important one in the nature of our ocean, 535 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: determine the kinds of life that flying in the air 536 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: and swim in the sea. But that's really the response 537 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: to physical constraints constraints on on the environment, rather than 538 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: the pivot points per see. And what about the one 539 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: that's mostly to our hearts, you know, intelligence, you're saying 540 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: that the niches are effectively the same before and after. 541 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: You know, the common story that you hear is dinosaurs 542 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: were wiped out by this meteor, which might have also 543 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: missed Earth if had you been pulled gravitationally by another object, 544 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: And that because the dinosaurs were wiped out, there was 545 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: room for maimals to flourish. Dot dot dot you get 546 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: humans and technological life. Are you suggesting that even if 547 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: the medior hadn't hit the earth, if the dinosaurs hadn't 548 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: been wiped out, that something would have arisen that was 549 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: intelligent and technological not not an easy question to answer 550 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: without a time machine and interfering with the course of history. 551 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 1: But we've got some clues, right, so we can look, 552 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: for instance, at if you look at a plot of 553 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: the diversity of life on a since the Permian mass extinction, 554 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: you'll see a pretty linear increase. I mean, it's just 555 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 1: going up and up and up. And it's true there 556 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: was a dip when that media hit and there was 557 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: a nice big mass extinction there, and then diversity just 558 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: kept on climbing again. So it's almost as if it 559 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: just with the simple metric of how of the diversity 560 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: of species, it's almost as if it didn't make much difference. 561 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: You know, it changed things a little bit, maybe, but 562 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: the increase in interactions between species just kept on going up. 563 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: Is it possible that it could have flatlined at that point? 564 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: I suppose as possible, but it seems really unlikely. Okay, 565 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 1: it does it does seem unlikely. It's true that we 566 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: can invent all kinds of stories about exactly what happened 567 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: after the dinosaurs went extincts can't be very confident about them. 568 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: But you know, the usual narrative goes that these nocturnal 569 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: mammals all of a sudden didn't have to be so 570 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: scared about coming out during the daytime, and so they 571 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: could exploit niches that weren't available to them before, and 572 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: so they diversified and so on. It's very hard to 573 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,719 Speaker 1: imagine that this kind of radiation wouldn't have happened at 574 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: some point. It just seems like the opportunities were there, 575 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: and opportunities get exploited in evolutionary time, they really do. 576 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: That might be the first time I ever heard somebody 577 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: say the phrase nice, big mass extinction. But I suppose 578 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: from an evolutionary biologists that is the way you look 579 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: at it. Well, I want to dig a little bit 580 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: more into thinking about the details of animals on alien planets, 581 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: because you go well beyond these sort of general arguments, 582 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: and you talk very specifically about what we can learn 583 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: about alien animals from animals on Earth. And I want 584 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: to focus first on senses. You know, here on Earth 585 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: we have a wide variety of senses, but humans don't 586 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: have all of them. Right, There are certainly senses that 587 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: exist in the animal kingdom that don't exist in humans. 588 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: What can we say about what aliens might experience? Are 589 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: they're likely to be able to sense magnetism the way 590 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: birds do, or sense electric fields the way fish can do. 591 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: Things about senses sensors are really interesting. One is that 592 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: centers um really really constrained by physics. Right, there's just 593 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: some things that you can and can't do. In a vacuum, 594 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,719 Speaker 1: you're not going to use sound, it's not going to happen. 595 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: So you know, in an opaque atmosphere, you're not going 596 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: to use light. So there's a lot of stuff that's 597 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: really easy to predict just based on the physics. But 598 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: as a biologist, I don't want to spend too much 599 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: time talking about physics. And from the evolutionary perspective, there's 600 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: another really interesting thing about senses, which is that senses 601 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: evolved because they gave an advantage. They gave an advantage 602 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: to some organism. Now, typically that advantage would be finding food. 603 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: So if you have an amba and it's in water, 604 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: and it detects a concentration gradient of of of nutrients 605 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: and it can move up that that concentration gradient because 606 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: that ability gives it a definite advantage. It gets more 607 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: food that way. And senses have to be understood in 608 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: terms of what advantage they give. It's a huge you know, 609 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: it's this huge idea that aliens are going to have 610 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: these super senses and they're gonna have these wonderful things 611 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: that we don't even imagine, and they can they have 612 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: all these incredible abilities that we can't conceive. Or maybe, 613 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: but only if it gave their ancestors an advantage, only 614 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: if the organisms from which they evolved, and probably the 615 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: organisms from which they evolved a long long time ago. 616 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: You know, they had to have the advantage. If you 617 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,919 Speaker 1: look at all the senses that exist primarily in animals today, 618 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: They've been around since the simplest animals. Sensing is a 619 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: really crucial thing for animals. I should probably mention I'm 620 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 1: sure we'll come up against this again when we talk 621 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: about intelligence, but I should probably mentioned why I talk 622 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: about animals all the time and what I mean by animals, 623 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: because animals are something quite different. You know, animals have 624 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: a big challenge, which is moving around and finding food 625 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: and avoiding becoming someone else's food, and finding a mate, 626 00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: and all the spatial constraint where do you go and 627 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: how can you go? And where can you go? Really 628 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: drives a lot of complexity in the animal world because 629 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: they need to solve these spatial problems. Sensing is a 630 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: is a perfect exam of the reason that animals sense 631 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: and plants sensors are much more simple than than animal 632 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: senses because plants don't need to move. Animals need to 633 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,280 Speaker 1: decide do I go left or do I go right? Now? 634 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: Aliens may have organisms that look like plants that you 635 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: may have animals like groot right, that's a plant that 636 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: moves around. I would call that an animal because for me, 637 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: an animal is something that has to move and make 638 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: decisions about moving in the moment you have to make 639 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: decisions about moving. You need sensing. You need to be 640 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: able to sense the world around you. And so why, 641 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: for example, did our ancestors not need to sense electric 642 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: fields or magnetic fields, but the ancestors of birds and 643 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: fish did. Can you not imagine any circumstance in which 644 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: that would be an advantage to us using electric fields 645 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: to sense the presence of fish, for example, in water, 646 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: you know, while hunting in shallow lakes. Is there no 647 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: circumstance in which case those other senses would have been 648 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: an advantage to our ancestors are And just as though 649 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 1: our advantages to us having wings, right, who wouldn't want wings? 650 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: And not saying it's not an advantage, But the evolutionary 651 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,439 Speaker 1: path that we followed is constrained by what our ancestors 652 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: constrained by the cost benefit analysis of our ancestors. So 653 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: you know, our ancestors were better off evolving big guys 654 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: that served them much better than an electric sense. Electric 655 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: sensing is really really complicated. It's very very difficult. It 656 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: requires very very specific organs in your body, and if 657 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: you really don't use them very much, then it's just 658 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: not worth it. So our ancestors didn't benefit at all, 659 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't have benefited at all from electric sensing, and so 660 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: they didn't have them. But we might like wings now, 661 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,839 Speaker 1: you know, you might even think that our ancestors could 662 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: have benefited from wings sort of climbing through the trees 663 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: in the jungle, but they were constrained by their ancestors 664 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,479 Speaker 1: as well, and not the simplest thing in the world 665 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,760 Speaker 1: to evolve. Wings to the process of evolution always involves 666 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: these cost benefit trade offs, and in that cost benefit analysis, 667 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: it's just it just wasn't worth a while. It just 668 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: wasn't worth our ancestors, our ancestors. While So your comment 669 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: about aliens and their supersenses, I take that to be 670 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: an argument that probably alien animals will have some subset 671 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: of the kind of senses we see here on Earth. 672 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: That there isn't some new, amazing sense that they have 673 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 1: evolved that we've never seen before. Well, that's a question 674 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: for you, right, that's where the physics comes in. That's 675 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,879 Speaker 1: constrained by physics. It's true that animals on Earth use 676 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: pretty much all of you known that the senses that 677 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 1: we think are possible through our understanding of physics. Magnetisms 678 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: are really a really rare one. It's a bit of it, right, 679 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: but it's not it's not hugely important. But you know, 680 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: earthlings use use pretty much everything. Is there another sense 681 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: out there, like gravitational sensing or something, or neutrinos sensing? Maybe? 682 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 1: I don't know, tell me. So that was the next 683 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 1: question I wanted to ask you about, and I'm particularly 684 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: struck by the example of magnetism. I mean, here's an 685 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: example where a creature develops a sense to something that's 686 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: very subtle and hard to pick up. You know, it 687 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: requires a really delicate chemistry to happen in their eyeballs 688 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: for them to be sensitive to these magnetic fields. And 689 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: at the same time, we know from the physics at 690 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 1: least that a lot of the universe is invisible to us. Right, 691 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 1: we are surrounded, as you say, buy neutrinos. A hundred 692 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: billion passed through every square centimeter per second, and they 693 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 1: carry a huge amount of energy. It took a long 694 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: time on Earth to develop vision and photosynthesis. Is it 695 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: possible that if we waited a few billion years that 696 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 1: plants would develop like neutrino synthesis, where microbes are learning 697 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: to eat energy from neutrinos somehow? Is it impossible to 698 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: imagine or do you think it's just sort of hasn't 699 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: happened yet here on Earth? Impulsibles big wood, but improbable 700 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,720 Speaker 1: is a reasonable world. And the reason is that natural 701 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 1: selection only works when it provides concrete advantage every step 702 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: of the way. Right, You've got to have an advantage 703 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: by having half a neutrino detector, And given that a 704 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: neutrino detectors probably pretty complicated, you'd have to explain why 705 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,720 Speaker 1: having some sort of very simple, primitive ability to detect 706 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: neutrinos would be an advantage, and that's very hard to do. 707 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: One of the nonsense arguments against evolution is that, well, 708 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: how could you evolve an eye? And half an eye 709 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: is not useful? Half an eye is incredibly useful. You know, 710 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: the very simplest organisms that were able to detect a 711 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: shadow from a bit of light had a huge advantage, 712 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: a huge advantage over over other organisms. So you would 713 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 1: need to see something like that with one of these 714 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: extra senses, one of the ones that hasn't been detected. 715 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: You'd have to see a real advantage for that very 716 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: simple innovation. All right, and I have lots more questions 717 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: about what it's like to be an alien and experience 718 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:13,800 Speaker 1: the universe. But let's take an their quick break. Okay, 719 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: we're back, and we're talking to Dr Arika Kirshenbaum about 720 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 1: his book The Zoologist Guide to the Galaxy. And I 721 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 1: noticed that you say the Guide to the Galaxy. Is 722 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: that a tip to Douglas Adams instead of thinking about 723 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: the guide to the universe. It is. But then again, 724 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: even astrobiologists, and I mean like the based astrobiologists, unlike me, 725 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: really our thoughts are pretty much limited to the galaxy. 726 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: The galaxy is something we can know about. Unless we're 727 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 1: talking about highly advanced technological civilizations in other galaxies, we'll 728 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 1: never know about them. Yeah, this is I think the 729 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: galaxies are really reasonable laboratory in which to work. It 730 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: is true that while there are chillions of other galaxies 731 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: out there, there are millions of light years away, whereas 732 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 1: our galaxy is only tens of thousands of light years across, 733 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: and so they do seem frustratingly distant. And so we 734 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 1: were talking about sort of how aliens might sense the world, 735 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,000 Speaker 1: and you're making the argument that we use most of 736 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 1: the reasonable seeming senses and everything else is probably unlikely 737 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,880 Speaker 1: to arise because it doesn't convey a benefit at every 738 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,240 Speaker 1: stage of evolution. And we talked about neutrinos, for example, 739 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: and you know, for the folks and the audience who 740 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: are interested in physics, we know, for example, also that 741 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: the universe is filled with dark matter, and that there's 742 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 1: kinds of radiation out there that we cannot sense directly, 743 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: but we've developed these technological eyeballs in order to discover 744 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: them and to see that they are part of our universe. 745 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,319 Speaker 1: And so I think the argument you're making is that 746 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 1: it's unlikely for these things to naturally arise biologically in 747 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 1: aliens unless they have a pronounced benefit along every step 748 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: of the evolutionary path. And in your book you make 749 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 1: this argument specifically about how this impacts alien civilization, and 750 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: you say, for example, that alien civilization will probably rely 751 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: on vocal communication rather than say, community action of complex 752 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,319 Speaker 1: ideas using sense. So I want to dig into that 753 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: a little bit more. How building on this basic experience 754 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: and sensory networks, that's likely to impact the structure of 755 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: alien and civilization and alien intelligence. Yeah, and it does 756 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: sound a bit too radical of a suggestion, doesn't it. 757 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: The alio aliens are gonna talk like us a bit 758 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: of a coincidence, But then again, you know, we are 759 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,240 Speaker 1: constrained by physics here. There are only so many different 760 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,800 Speaker 1: ways that you can convey information, and so many different channels, 761 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: so many different media. There's light, this sound, there's smell, 762 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: a's touch, there's vibration, there's electrical fields as magnetic fields. 763 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: The list is not a lot, and I'm sure that 764 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: that that entire list will be exploited by organisms here. 765 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 1: They're everywhere across the galaxy. The question is which of 766 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: those channels can be used for complex communication because technology 767 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: relies on complex communication. You want to build a spaceship, 768 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: want to build a radio telescope, right, you need the 769 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 1: instructions manual. You need to be able to say this 770 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: part goes plugs into into that part. So there needs 771 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: to be the capacity to have a certain level of complexity. 772 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 1: Which of those media, which of those those physical channels 773 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:18,800 Speaker 1: support that kind of complexity. Well, you know, I argue 774 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 1: that that smell probably doesn't. There are a lot of 775 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:26,240 Speaker 1: problems with using chemical cues for communication. Loads of animals 776 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 1: do it right. It's it's one of the oldest forms 777 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: of communication, but it's always going to be simple. Smells 778 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 1: get mixed up, they travel very slowly. It just doesn't 779 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: sound like it's a reliable channel for conveying information. Vision 780 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: and sound really are the two that that can hold 781 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: a lot of information and are reliable over over reasonable distances. 782 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 1: And the third one, which is really reliable and can 783 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,960 Speaker 1: hold even more information, is electrical fields. It seems like 784 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: those three channels are the only physical channels that are 785 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: capable of carrying enough information really to be a complex 786 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: language and to convey complex technological ideas. We use the 787 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: first two. Of course, we don't use electrical fields. There 788 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,640 Speaker 1: are some animals on Earth that do not many and 789 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 1: that's really because it's actually very challenging. It's a very 790 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,920 Speaker 1: challenging thing to do. But I don't doubt that there 791 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,319 Speaker 1: could be technological alien species that have an electrical communication, 792 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: electrical language. And so we're building up an argument that 793 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:26,239 Speaker 1: suggests that aliens probably move their complexity arises from competition 794 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 1: among these bits all trying to eat each other, that 795 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 1: they're probably communicating with each other. Does this give us 796 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,759 Speaker 1: enough of a sort of complexity soup to suggest that 797 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 1: intelligence is likely to arise? How much of a reach 798 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,439 Speaker 1: is it to suppose that this kind of context will 799 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 1: lead to alien intelligence. Well, for a zoologist, it's it's 800 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: no leap at all. Right, A zoologist will tell you 801 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: all animals are intelligent. Intelligence is a fundamental property of animals, 802 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: because if we define intelligence as the ability to solve problems, 803 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: that's precisely what animals have to do. They have to 804 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,480 Speaker 1: solve problems. They have to decide whether to turn right 805 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 1: or to turn left. They have to find food, They 806 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: have to decide whether an image that they see on 807 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,839 Speaker 1: their retina is a potential food source or or an 808 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,400 Speaker 1: animal coming towards them to eat them. Those challenges which 809 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,320 Speaker 1: are critically I mean, the important thing about those challenges 810 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: is that these challenges are time critical. Animals have to 811 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,359 Speaker 1: make decisions quickly, straightaway. Is it a predator? Should I run? 812 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,400 Speaker 1: Should I turn left? Should I turn right? And that's intelligence. 813 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: That's precisely what intelligence is. So so the simplest, simplest 814 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: animal has intelligence. Now, of course you're going to say 815 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: that's not fair, that's not what I meant. I meant 816 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: intelligence like us, I would define human intelligence in the 817 00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,160 Speaker 1: way that you want it to be defined. What you're 818 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 1: really asking about is technological intelligence. Okay, there's this joke 819 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 1: from SETI scientists that I like to tell, which is 820 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: that there are two kinds of organisms in the universe, 821 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: folks and critters. Folks is anyone who can build a 822 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,760 Speaker 1: radio telescope and criticism everything else. And the rational behind 823 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:11,240 Speaker 1: that is there might be some really intelligent alien species 824 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: out there really fantastically clever. If they can't make a 825 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 1: technology to send signals to us, we'll never know. I 826 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 1: will never know about them unless they come and visit, right, Yeah, 827 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,480 Speaker 1: but they'll need that technology then, now, okay, they'll have 828 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: to have that technology or will never know about them, 829 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 1: build a radio telescope, builder, spaceship, whatever. So there is 830 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,279 Speaker 1: a criterion which is an interesting criterion. I wouldn't call 831 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,480 Speaker 1: it intelligence, because, as I said, all animals are intelligent, 832 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,360 Speaker 1: but there is an interesting criterion of this technological intelligence, 833 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 1: the ability to build a radio telescope, the ability to 834 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,399 Speaker 1: build a spaceship come and visit us. And I think 835 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,759 Speaker 1: that's what you're asking, Is it something like that? I mean, essentially, 836 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,719 Speaker 1: I want to get to the question of whether we 837 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 1: can make a mental connection with these aliens. How likely 838 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 1: is it that we have enough in common that we 839 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 1: could communicate with them and get some insight into what 840 00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: I think is the deepous question, which is what is 841 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,000 Speaker 1: it like to be an alien? How different is it 842 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,439 Speaker 1: from what it's like to be a human, And can 843 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 1: from that we draw some interesting conclusions about, you know, 844 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,719 Speaker 1: the nature of consciousness and intelligence itself. If we find 845 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: aliens to be very similar to humans. If we find 846 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,080 Speaker 1: them to be just alien enough that we can understand them, 847 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,600 Speaker 1: but they're weird enough that we can learn something about 848 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: the nature of intelligence, I think would be especially interesting. 849 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:24,880 Speaker 1: So one thing I really appreciated about your book was 850 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:29,319 Speaker 1: this exploration of what we mean by intelligence, especially a 851 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 1: part in your book where you argue that if aliens 852 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 1: are found to be as intelligent as humans, might we 853 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,760 Speaker 1: consider them to actually be human. Right, you can imagine 854 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,799 Speaker 1: granting them rights and treating them as persons. So what 855 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,640 Speaker 1: do you think that we can say about alien intelligence 856 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: based on what we have learned here on Earth? And 857 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:48,759 Speaker 1: is it just philosophical or is it built from a 858 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,400 Speaker 1: sort of argument about the experience of aliens the senses 859 00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 1: that we were talking about earlier. Well, of course, it 860 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:59,600 Speaker 1: seems very very unlikely that will ever go and there's 861 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,160 Speaker 1: an ali in planet and look at the different alien 862 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,240 Speaker 1: animals on it will be wonderful, But it seems unlikely. 863 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,120 Speaker 1: But if we were the Thought Experiment and we were 864 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,360 Speaker 1: to land on a planet, okay, most of the planets 865 00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:13,399 Speaker 1: with life are just going to be bacterial slime, right, 866 00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,720 Speaker 1: probability is a vast majority there's only been bacterial slime 867 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:19,960 Speaker 1: on Earth for two and a half billion years, and 868 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 1: and and so chances are alien planets, most alien plants 869 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 1: are going to be like, let's say we find one 870 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,880 Speaker 1: that's got complex life, and we land on that planet 871 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,360 Speaker 1: it's got complex life, and we look around. I claim 872 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,719 Speaker 1: that we will see things that appear to us the 873 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:36,080 Speaker 1: equivalent of trees, things that appear to us the equivalent 874 00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 1: of animals. Those things that appear to us the equivalent 875 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 1: of animals will have a wide range of what we 876 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: think of as intelligence. There will be slug like creatures 877 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 1: that don't seem to have very much intelligence. There will 878 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: be primate like creatures that seem to have considerably more intelligence. 879 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: So I think that that diversity of intelligences is very 880 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 1: likely to occur, and I think we would wreck ignize it. 881 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:05,200 Speaker 1: I think we would recognize the parallels with animals on 882 00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:09,320 Speaker 1: our planet, because of course, intelligence will arise for exactly 883 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,880 Speaker 1: the same reasons as as it arose on on Earth. However, 884 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,239 Speaker 1: now you're asking about the technological aliens. If we can 885 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: even find any of those, what are the chances that 886 00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: we will have basically common ground with them? It's a 887 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:25,960 Speaker 1: completely different question whether we will ever be able to 888 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,640 Speaker 1: learn their language, But put aside for the moment, but 889 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,080 Speaker 1: assuming that we could learn their language, would we be 890 00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:33,880 Speaker 1: able to talk to them, would we be able to 891 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,760 Speaker 1: understand them? Would we be able to understand the psyche experiences? 892 00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,319 Speaker 1: You know, if if they do use electric fields to 893 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,719 Speaker 1: communicate their view of the world, if you can call 894 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:45,600 Speaker 1: it a view, maybe we need to think of a 895 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,240 Speaker 1: new word that's kind of electric view. If they sense 896 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,279 Speaker 1: the world using electric fields, their perception is going to 897 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:56,080 Speaker 1: be so utterly different from ours. Would we find common 898 00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,200 Speaker 1: ground with them? And I think you can probably guess 899 00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 1: that my aunt's there is going to be yes. And 900 00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,399 Speaker 1: the reason that my answer is going to be yes 901 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,759 Speaker 1: is because if we were lucky to find such a species, 902 00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:12,520 Speaker 1: the only reason they have an intelligence that is similar 903 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: to ours is because they've been through a similar evolutionary 904 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,759 Speaker 1: history to ours. That's the only reason they would have it. Right. 905 00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:23,920 Speaker 1: We don't exactly know what caused our ancestors to evolve 906 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,160 Speaker 1: the intelligence that put us in the place that we 907 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: are now and the mess that we are now, But 908 00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 1: whatever that pathway was, it's quite likely that a similar 909 00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:39,520 Speaker 1: and identical similar pathway will have evolved for these intelligent aliens. 910 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,720 Speaker 1: And if that's the case, then yeah, there is common ground. 911 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,120 Speaker 1: That seems to me a strong argument. But I also 912 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: think about the kind of experiences of intelligent animals here 913 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:51,920 Speaker 1: on Earth, and I wonder about the very kind of 914 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,000 Speaker 1: argument you make there where you say, let's look at 915 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,200 Speaker 1: the variety of things we see on Earth. And you know, 916 00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,800 Speaker 1: as we look around on Earth, we see fairly intelligent 917 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,799 Speaker 1: creatures that we think might have very different sort of 918 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 1: mental internal states. You know, take for example, an octopus 919 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,440 Speaker 1: that has like a central brain but also seems to 920 00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,719 Speaker 1: have semi independent arms that it passes instructions too, and 921 00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 1: then they execute them. However, they like, what is it 922 00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:16,319 Speaker 1: like to be an octopus? It seems like it might 923 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,080 Speaker 1: be very different from the experience of being human, and 924 00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,840 Speaker 1: that kind of barrier, that kind of different flavor of 925 00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:25,960 Speaker 1: intelligence might prevent a barrier to real effective communication and 926 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:30,960 Speaker 1: you know, technological transfers. But then again, there's a barrier 927 00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,200 Speaker 1: between us and and those animals on that we can't 928 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,520 Speaker 1: understand what it's like to be an octopus, right, we 929 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,919 Speaker 1: can't understand what it's like to be a dolphin. Why 930 00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,160 Speaker 1: not because they don't have a language. It's because they 931 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,000 Speaker 1: don't have a language. I mean, if you could go 932 00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,000 Speaker 1: up to an octopus and ask what's it like to 933 00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,680 Speaker 1: be an octopus? You might find its answer somewhat confusing, 934 00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:53,799 Speaker 1: but at least you get an answer. At least you'd 935 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,880 Speaker 1: have an insight into what they're thinking. And it's language 936 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,719 Speaker 1: that's really the key thing here. In language is the 937 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,719 Speaker 1: only way that we can interrogate the minds of other 938 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,759 Speaker 1: creatures in any detail. We can do experiments, There are 939 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:09,880 Speaker 1: experiments we can do. They are very clever experiments that 940 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,960 Speaker 1: we do to investigate to what extent animals understand themselves, 941 00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,799 Speaker 1: to what extent animals understand that other animals are different individuals, 942 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:19,879 Speaker 1: and so on. But really, if you want to know 943 00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,000 Speaker 1: how you're feeling, you know, what do you what do 944 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,360 Speaker 1: you think about this poem or whatever? That requires language? 945 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:29,640 Speaker 1: And now the question is are these hypothetical technological aliens 946 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:35,160 Speaker 1: of ours going to have language? Yes, technological they have language. 947 00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:39,360 Speaker 1: You cannot write that spaceship Instructions book without language. You 948 00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,359 Speaker 1: cannot build a spaceship without language. You have to say 949 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,600 Speaker 1: to another alien, you know, asked me the screwdriver, so 950 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,880 Speaker 1: that barrier that exists between us and other intelligences on 951 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,319 Speaker 1: Earth is a real barrier, and I agree that there 952 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,880 Speaker 1: are many kinds of intelligences that will be hard to understand, 953 00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,560 Speaker 1: but at least we would have that window. May not help, 954 00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,000 Speaker 1: may not solve the problem. We may find that that 955 00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:05,600 Speaker 1: alien talking octopuses are so different from us that we 956 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,440 Speaker 1: simply cannot understand what they're thinking, but at least it 957 00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:10,200 Speaker 1: gives us a chance. At least it gives us a window. 958 00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,719 Speaker 1: I agree that if they're technological, it's likely that they 959 00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:14,520 Speaker 1: have language, But then the question is what are the 960 00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,920 Speaker 1: chances that they are technological? And isn't there a naive 961 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,399 Speaker 1: argument to make that it's unlikely that we see lots 962 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,000 Speaker 1: of intelligence, even fairly strong intelligence on Earth like OCTOPI 963 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:27,879 Speaker 1: that isn't technological, and only one example of the case 964 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,800 Speaker 1: that it is ours, and therefore it's unlikely for aliens, 965 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,480 Speaker 1: even intelligent aliens, to be technological on other planets. Yeah, 966 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,919 Speaker 1: but unfortunately, that's back to the critics argument. We would 967 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,440 Speaker 1: never know until we can, until we can get to 968 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:45,600 Speaker 1: those planets and count how many intelligent animals there are 969 00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,600 Speaker 1: that haven't developed spaceships that unfortunately is a closed door 970 00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:52,160 Speaker 1: to us. All talk about about talking to aliens, communicating 971 00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:56,760 Speaker 1: with aliens, meeting aliens. This is all very much based 972 00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:01,560 Speaker 1: on this hypothetical situation where we find highly intelligent technological 973 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,600 Speaker 1: aliens that that will talk to us. How likely that 974 00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,360 Speaker 1: is we have to be a smeistic I'm afraid. So 975 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 1: then my last question is more about you, which is 976 00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,400 Speaker 1: why are you interested in this question, this hypothetical question 977 00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,680 Speaker 1: of alien life? Your zoologist? Are you plenty of examples 978 00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,960 Speaker 1: for things to steady here on Earth? Why I spend 979 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,720 Speaker 1: time wondering about alien life? Why not just wait until 980 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,479 Speaker 1: we do discover it and then you can talk about 981 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:24,879 Speaker 1: their concrete details. Why did you write this specific book 982 00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,280 Speaker 1: as it happens? This is really it's really the subject 983 00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,000 Speaker 1: that we just touched on. I research communication, That's what 984 00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,160 Speaker 1: I do, and I'm interested in things like how much 985 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:35,920 Speaker 1: are our animals saying? How much are they saying to 986 00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:39,360 Speaker 1: each other? How complex are the messages that they passed 987 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,040 Speaker 1: to each other? Big question? You know, are humans the 988 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,520 Speaker 1: only ones with language? And to answer those kinds of questions, 989 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:48,719 Speaker 1: raises to investigate those kinds of questions haven't exactly got 990 00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:51,920 Speaker 1: answers yet to investigate those kinds of questions means we 991 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:56,520 Speaker 1: need to look at some very fundamental ideas. What is language? 992 00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,560 Speaker 1: What is communication? Which is meaning? Right? What's the meaning? 993 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,200 Speaker 1: You can you have meanings without language? Does that even 994 00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,759 Speaker 1: make any sense? Does an animal does it dolphin? Mean 995 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:08,600 Speaker 1: something when it makes particular sound? And so looking at 996 00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:10,839 Speaker 1: these questions and trying to find ways to answer these 997 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,840 Speaker 1: questions and trying to find ways to ask animals the 998 00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,399 Speaker 1: answer really does touch on the kinds of issues we've 999 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,480 Speaker 1: We've just been talking about, what is the difference between 1000 00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,920 Speaker 1: the mind of a human and the mind of a 1001 00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,439 Speaker 1: chimpanzee or the mind of a of a parrot? Why 1002 00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,960 Speaker 1: are we different? Actually? In what way are we different? 1003 00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,960 Speaker 1: Are we different? Clearly we are. We have language? How 1004 00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,040 Speaker 1: has that come about? Why has that happened? Is inevitable? 1005 00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,200 Speaker 1: As you say, maybe a language will never arise on 1006 00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:42,719 Speaker 1: any other planets, or maybe you will. Maybe it is inevitable. 1007 00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:46,200 Speaker 1: Has it arisen before on Earth? Is it only humans? 1008 00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,080 Speaker 1: These are the kinds of questions that I deal with 1009 00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,359 Speaker 1: on Earth, but you can see that they have they 1010 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,759 Speaker 1: have implications for thinking about who are ever going to 1011 00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,480 Speaker 1: talk to? If we're ever going to meet anyone. No, 1012 00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:56,640 Speaker 1: I absolutely I agree. I think that framing it in 1013 00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:58,840 Speaker 1: terms of what's going on on other planets is a 1014 00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:00,839 Speaker 1: great way to think about with unique on Earth, what's 1015 00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:02,959 Speaker 1: special on Earth, what's common on Earth? And so really 1016 00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:04,879 Speaker 1: we we can learn a lot about ourselves and so 1017 00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,040 Speaker 1: um I learned a lot of reading your book. I 1018 00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,880 Speaker 1: really enjoyed it, and thanks very much for coming on 1019 00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,560 Speaker 1: the program and answering all of our naive questions. Yeah, 1020 00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:14,799 Speaker 1: the great questions. I love that well, Thanks very much, 1021 00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:16,680 Speaker 1: and I encourage all our listeners to check out the 1022 00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:20,440 Speaker 1: book again. It's called The Zoologist Guide to the Galaxy 1023 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,080 Speaker 1: and the author is Dr Arik Kirshenbaum. Thanks very much 1024 00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:33,040 Speaker 1: for joining us today. Thanks for listening, and remember that 1025 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,880 Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of 1026 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,360 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcast for my Heart Radio, 1027 00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:43,080 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1028 00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:44,880 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.