1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast, where we 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: cover the big money issues in the world of sports. 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: I'm Scarlet Foo and today we are bringing in Bloomberg's 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: Vanessa Perdomo and Jason Kelly, who have a new series 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: called Next in Sports, and their latest episode focuses on 6 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a sport an activity. 7 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 2: I would gladly say that I wouldn't call it a 8 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: sport either. 9 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: It's a competition for sure, and that would be on 10 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: corn hole and cornhole is I mean, this is the 11 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: game that people play when they go tailgating, right. 12 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, so it's necessarily a drinking game or 13 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 2: like a backyard game. But listen, I mean, anything is 14 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: a sport if you decide to make it one. I 15 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 2: think that's something that we've seen a lot when we're 16 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 2: filming this series. And if you take it seriously enough, 17 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: which they do. And these players athletes, if you so 18 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:52,639 Speaker 2: call them. 19 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 3: Work really hard. They do, you know, and they practice 20 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 3: their craft. 21 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 4: A lot, and they're really good. 22 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 3: They're really good. 23 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 4: They're really I mean, I think we can both the 24 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 4: tests of the fact they are a crazy good. I mean, 25 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 4: it does take an amazing amount of concentration and eye 26 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 4: coordination focus. I mean just that sounds like scale of it. 27 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 4: I mean there is skill, There is real skill to it. 28 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 4: And I mean if we gauge what's a sport by 29 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 4: what's on ESPN, it's a huge hit on ESPN. And 30 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 4: it was like the pandemic hit it is. 31 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 2: And every time we talked to someone about it, they 32 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 2: were like, oh, yeah, definitely watched on ESPN. 33 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: And part of that is because during the pandemic, when 34 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: Live Sports shut down, the commissioner of the Cornhole the. 35 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 4: Professional American Cornhole League yea acl ACL. 36 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: Yes, he saw an opportunity and he managed to convince ESPN. 37 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: I guess it wasn't very hard to convince ESPN, but 38 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: he said, let's continue doing this. 39 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, he did it and basically said, I can stand 40 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 4: up this is Stacey. He said, we can stand up tournaments. 41 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,559 Speaker 4: I have the social distancing figured out. We obviously aren't 42 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 4: going to have audiences ESPN. I mean, remember this is 43 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 4: summer of twenty twenty. They were desperate for I mean 44 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 4: desperate probably understates how they felt about their lack of content. 45 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 4: I mean, they really needed stuff on the air. And 46 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 4: I have to say I mean, I certainly was one 47 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 4: long before we worked on this story. You tune in 48 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 4: and you're like, yeah, I want to watch this. I'm 49 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 4: in It is. 50 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: Kind of I mean, it's definitely captivating. It's something that 51 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: is easily digestible as well, especially because of how many 52 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: people do know how to play, how many people play 53 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: at tailgates and stuff. 54 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 3: So you can definitely watch it. 55 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 2: But when then you talk to the athletes themselves and stuff, 56 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 2: and they are not the ones who are playing at 57 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: the tailgate. They they're better and it's funny listening to 58 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 2: them here. People talk to them about, oh I would 59 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 2: I could definitely beat. 60 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 3: You, you know, and they're like, I don't think so. 61 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: So here's the thing that had me really mesmerized was 62 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: that you had men in suits talking to you about 63 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: Cornhole being the next potential next NFL, which you know 64 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: at the start of the video. I kind of was like, really, 65 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: how how on earth is that gonna happen? What is 66 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: the business model here for Cornhole being a profitable enterprise? 67 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 4: So I I was in that interview with Jim Simmons, 68 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 4: who's one of the backers of this league, and he 69 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 4: said it with a straight face and I think he 70 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 4: means it in the sense that if you think about 71 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 4: the potential of all the people who could play this game, 72 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 4: it's massive. It has not really gone global yet. They're 73 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 4: trying to do that. They're they're in Europe a bit, 74 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 4: but they want to take it even more global. To me, 75 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 4: one of the most interesting bits about it, I think 76 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 4: Venessa feels the same way, is that they essentially own 77 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,839 Speaker 4: the sport too, so they have, you know, all these 78 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 4: licensing and marketing deals, and so if you're buying an 79 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 4: official cornhole board, like that's going back to them. They 80 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 4: they have a real control. 81 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: They sell the bean bags, they sell the board. 82 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, it's the it's the back, it's the boards. 83 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: And you would be shocked at how many bags, how 84 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: many different kinds of bags there are, and that they're 85 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: they're allowed to use them like you don't. They don't 86 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: have to use the same ones competing against each other. 87 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 2: And I would say there's dozens, not hundreds, of different 88 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: kinds of bags. So that's its own revenue stream right there. 89 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: Which when we played, me and Jason played with the 90 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 2: pros and we did use different kinds, and I will 91 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 2: say it made me really want to get like official 92 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: bags because it felt very different. 93 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it when you're playing with professions. First of all, 94 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 4: they're really good. Second of all, like the the field 95 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 4: of play is typically much longer than you set up 96 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 4: at you know, your backyard tailgate or or your backyard 97 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 4: or at tailgate, and it is, uh, it's really difficult. 98 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 4: One of one of my favorite things about it was 99 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 4: talking to this guy, Trey Ryder, who has been called 100 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 4: the Tony Romo of cornhole. And part of that is 101 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 4: because so he became by the way, this guy Summa 102 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 4: cum Laudi from Clemson in chemical engineering. He's like a 103 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 4: super smart guy, but now he works for the American 104 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 4: Cornhole League in part because his dad told him, like 105 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 4: this is where you know, like you could be really 106 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 4: good at this as a commentator. He basically told him, 107 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 4: you're not good enough. 108 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: To play chemical engineer. Yes, does not play cornhole, but 109 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: he does the color commentary. 110 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 4: He plays cornhole, but he's not good enough to be 111 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 4: like on the circuit. He's really good, but he is 112 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 4: now like the guy and if you watch the games 113 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 4: that he is calling, like he he's just like Tony Roman, 114 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 4: Like he'll be like okay and he'll draw like with 115 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 4: a t illustrator, like this is where the bag's gonna go, 116 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 4: and this is what he's gonna do it. He's gonna, 117 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 4: you know, try and block here. He's gonna do that. 118 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's remarkable. 119 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, the athletes said that they can actually hear him 120 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: because in this stage of their production. 121 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 3: It looks great on. 122 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 2: TV, but they're very close to each other, so the 123 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 2: table's right there, and they said they can often hear him, 124 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: like so it gets in their head a little bit. 125 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 2: They probably are thinking the exact same thing, but it's 126 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 2: almost that thing where you almost want to prove him 127 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: wrong because you're like, I don't want to listen to 128 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 2: your inside my head right now. 129 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: When you were talking to the athletes, Vanessa, did anyone 130 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: talk about baggate that the cheating scandal that took place 131 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: in Cornhole? Apparently there are some bags that were maybe 132 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: too small and too light, they were not regulation size 133 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: and this costs like a lot of controversy, a lot 134 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: of scandals in late twenty twenty two. 135 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 3: Oh, that's very interesting. They did not talk to me 136 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 3: about that. 137 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, I know a little bit about I mean, they 138 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 4: say that it wasn't intentional, I mean, and there was 139 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 4: a hole back and forth about it. But it also 140 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 4: I mean, in some ways to me, it shows that 141 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 4: this is the sport that people are taking seriously because 142 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 4: at any time anybody's trying to sort of hedge it. I mean, 143 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 4: there is real you know, there is real money involved. 144 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 4: I mean, it's getting to the point. We talked with 145 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 4: one person who is I mean, I think making a living. 146 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: Oh right, yes, absolutely, one of the money playing cornhole professionally. 147 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 3: Yes, so the. 148 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: Number one female in the world at the time. I 149 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: think the rankings might have shifted a little bit. But 150 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 2: herhames Schyanne Bubenheim, and she is one hundred percent a 151 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 2: cornhole professional. 152 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 3: That's all she does. 153 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: That's she makes enough money from her prize money from 154 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: all the events they have all year long. And she 155 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 2: said she's never played another sport before in her life. 156 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 2: She was a competitive person, but never really was an athlete. 157 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: And this is her life. She trains with six hours 158 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 2: or so, she practices. She practices around you know about 159 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: that amount of time, and she uses she's such a pro. 160 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 3: We played. She gave me some lessons. 161 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: She's really good in very humble but also in the 162 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: way that her strategy was, I'm just gonna shoot it 163 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 2: straight in the hole, and I know they're gonna miss 164 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: before I do. And then played with someone who his 165 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: strategy was to block the hole, so he was going 166 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: with a very different strategy. But when we played, she 167 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 2: was right. She did not miss a. 168 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 4: Six sport, didn't miss one, and you guys and we won, 169 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 4: and Vanessa beat me just because I know we're keeping score, 170 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 4: or at least we're keeping scoring a. 171 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, among all the different supports that you guys try. 172 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: Next in sports, Vanessa's in the lead right now. 173 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're in the lead right now. 174 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 3: I'm in the lead. 175 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 4: More to come. 176 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: Wait, June, you had mentioned that this is a very 177 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: American activity or sport, although they are trying to expand 178 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: a lot of this depends on whether people play this 179 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: in their backyard, whether they do this at tailgating. Europe 180 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: doesn't really have a tailgating culture, does it. 181 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:42,680 Speaker 4: No, not the same way, not in the same way, 182 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 4: And so we'll see sort of where where it picks up. 183 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 4: I mean, it is a very social game. It is 184 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 4: very easy to pick up. I mean, my own experience 185 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 4: with it was, you know, uh, to last summer and 186 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 4: the summer before that, I had kids graduate from high 187 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 4: school and so I was on like the grad party circuit. 188 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 4: And I mean, let me tell you, like the the 189 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 4: dad intensity around this sport is high, high level. And 190 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 4: I mean we also saw it. So we were in 191 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 4: Phoenix right before the Super Bowl for the wait for it, 192 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 4: Super Whole Tournament, the tournament that's the name of the tournament, 193 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 4: and we saw Ryan Fitzpatrick. He was playing. We talked 194 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 4: with him a little bit about it and like just 195 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 4: about everything else, he's super into it. And he lost, 196 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 4: and I don't I wouldn't say he was mad, but 197 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 4: he was like intent on getting back on them. 198 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 3: Oh, he was like, I just want to keep playing. 199 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: Was he was definitely upset that he lost because he 200 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 2: just wanted to keep playing all night. But I think 201 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 2: that you know, to your point at scar about it 202 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 2: being a little American, how you get it become European, 203 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: because one of the things that we noticed while we 204 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 2: were there was the essence of Americana around the sport 205 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: is really evident. And one of their biggest sponsors is 206 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 2: Bush's Bake Beans, and you just have this very American feel. 207 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 2: So I don't actually know how they would have to 208 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: change it. It's my point to get a big European marketing, right. 209 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 4: One of the big sausage companies is Johnsonville Brats. Yeah, yeah, 210 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 4: absolute Johnsonville Sausages. I mean, I guess the other side 211 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 4: of that is, you know, there are a lot of 212 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 4: places who love anything American, and I mean nothing's more 213 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 4: American than this. Yeah, lean into it, lean into it. Yeah. 214 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 4: All American all the time. 215 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: All right, I mean it was it was really eye 216 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: opening because clearly this is something that a lot of people. 217 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: It's accessible, first of all, and a lot of people 218 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: play it, you know, at backdoor parties and whatnot. And 219 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: also it's got the viewers right, it's those weeks in 220 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: the summer of twenty twenty when people had nothing better 221 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: to do than to watch ESPN. Not that they had 222 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: nothing better to do if they wanted to watch some 223 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: live competition. That was where you found it, absolutely and ESPN. 224 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: So you know, it's somehow proven to be very durable. Yes, 225 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: all right, well, Cornwall, you be sure to check it 226 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: out next in Sports Premiers Wednesdays on Bloomberg Television at 227 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: ten pm Eastern. It's also available through YouTube and Bloomberg 228 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: dot Com the following day, where of course you can 229 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: catch previous installments. Everything is on demand.