WEBVTT - Andy Staples

0:00:01.080 --> 0:00:04.080
<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.

0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.960
<v Speaker 1>Today I am joined by golf course architect Andy Staples.

0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.680
<v Speaker 1>Andy is a young, up and coming architect who has

0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:15.560
<v Speaker 1>designed courses such as Meadowbrook Country Club, sand Hollow and

0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:20.240
<v Speaker 1>Rock One Community Links. Our discussion jumps right into a

0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.680
<v Speaker 1>talk on municipal golf, or as Andy likes to call it,

0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:29.400
<v Speaker 1>community golf, and then we divulge into his renovation of Meadowbrook,

0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:33.519
<v Speaker 1>Willie Park Junior and much more. Thanks for all the

0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:37.520
<v Speaker 1>ongoing support and for tuning in, and if you haven't yet,

0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:41.320
<v Speaker 1>please rate and review the podcast and iTunes and subscribe

0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:43.960
<v Speaker 1>if you don't already, Here's Andy Staples.

0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.639
<v Speaker 2>I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When

0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:50.760
<v Speaker 2>I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:52.800
<v Speaker 2>And when I find my ball in a frid Egg

0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.400
<v Speaker 2>Friday Egg, the drided Friday, Frida Egg, Frida Egg Egg

0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:58.800
<v Speaker 2>Frida Egg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run

0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:27.720
<v Speaker 2>off the golf course. How did I get roped into

0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:32.440
<v Speaker 2>them uni golf? Yeah? I love it well. I would

0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:37.320
<v Speaker 2>tell you that themuni sector in our business was where

0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:39.800
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the blue collar architects would play for

0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.360
<v Speaker 2>a lot of years, I think maybe still today. And

0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:45.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, we didn't get the calls from the top

0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:46.840
<v Speaker 2>clubs when I first got in the business, so I

0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:49.080
<v Speaker 2>ended up seeing a lot of that side. So I

0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:53.280
<v Speaker 2>responded to a lot of our fps, you know, really

0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:54.960
<v Speaker 2>as long as I've been in the business, and so

0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.360
<v Speaker 2>it was somewhat natural to me. But it was always

0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:02.080
<v Speaker 2>known as this you faction of the business that you're like, well,

0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:05.240
<v Speaker 2>one day we might graduate and not have to do this.

0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:10.760
<v Speaker 2>And and then the recession hit and the MUNI sector

0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.560
<v Speaker 2>was hit as hard as anybody, and and I felt

0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.320
<v Speaker 2>like it was something that was that was real to

0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.480
<v Speaker 2>me and understood and and and then on top of that,

0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.240
<v Speaker 2>it just felt you know, innovation in golf is not

0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:24.720
<v Speaker 2>a word you hear a lot of, maybe in the

0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:26.760
<v Speaker 2>equipment side, but not on the development side. And so

0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:29.679
<v Speaker 2>I felt that there was some room for innovation. And

0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:32.760
<v Speaker 2>I kind of I didn't like the word municipal, and

0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.760
<v Speaker 2>I thought community was a lot better word. And I said,

0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:38.480
<v Speaker 2>you know what I think this is this is a

0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.640
<v Speaker 2>place for innovation and a place to make a mark.

0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:43.880
<v Speaker 2>And I thought it was also a place that a

0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.640
<v Speaker 2>lot of my competitors weren't. It was upon that they

0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:50.720
<v Speaker 2>weren't fishing in and and uh so I went full

0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:55.480
<v Speaker 2>board and lo and behold, I find myself being pretty

0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.600
<v Speaker 2>successful in front of a large group and comfortable in

0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.840
<v Speaker 2>front of a large group and been able to kind

0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:07.160
<v Speaker 2>of bring people onto the side of golf. And it

0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:09.040
<v Speaker 2>just has been something that I've stuck with and I

0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.000
<v Speaker 2>think I'm passionate about it. And I think it's the

0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.760
<v Speaker 2>value of a golf course in a community is not

0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:16.160
<v Speaker 2>something that is really well thought of, and I think

0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:18.320
<v Speaker 2>we should be thinking more of it as a value.

0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.960
<v Speaker 2>And it's been kind of a mission of mine to

0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:22.600
<v Speaker 2>stick with it.

0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.280
<v Speaker 1>That's kind of what I see too, is like something

0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:30.600
<v Speaker 1>that fascinates me is how many of my podcast guests

0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:34.720
<v Speaker 1>grew up playing municipal golf like and how many of

0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.760
<v Speaker 1>the people that get into the golf industry are grew

0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:41.600
<v Speaker 1>up playing munique golf. And I mean it's so vital,

0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:45.480
<v Speaker 1>Like I grew up playing Muni golf like without munich golf,

0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.120
<v Speaker 1>you you know, the if you want to talk about

0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.000
<v Speaker 1>growing the game, like if you didn't, if Muni golf

0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.320
<v Speaker 1>keeps closing and on its pace that it is now

0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.200
<v Speaker 1>like you're not going to have a game without it.

0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:01.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think if you go back to the history

0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:06.320
<v Speaker 2>of why municipal golf even started, go back to you know,

0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.040
<v Speaker 2>Van Cortland Golf Course, the first municipally owned golf course

0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:11.080
<v Speaker 2>in the country. It was it was a place for

0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, the growing middle class that had some expendable

0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:18.920
<v Speaker 2>income that couldn't afford to join a private club. They

0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.360
<v Speaker 2>went down to the local municipal golf course. So I

0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.400
<v Speaker 2>think it's you know, people don't realize that the reason

0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:27.120
<v Speaker 2>why golf is the way that it is and the

0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:29.320
<v Speaker 2>way that it was able to expand to the heights

0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:31.960
<v Speaker 2>that it got expanded to, was because of municipal golf,

0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:35.120
<v Speaker 2>or at least in part because municipal golf. Yeah, I

0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.320
<v Speaker 2>was the same way. I grew up at a plan

0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:42.080
<v Speaker 2>at a place called Wanaki and outside of Milwaukee was

0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.799
<v Speaker 2>in Wisconsin Winak golf course. It was a county Ushak

0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.200
<v Speaker 2>County golf course, and I would meet my buddies down

0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:51.720
<v Speaker 2>there after school and and we play on the weekends.

0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:53.240
<v Speaker 2>It was the same thing. You know, four dollars or

0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:55.960
<v Speaker 2>five dollars for somebody under sixteen, and you know, it's

0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.200
<v Speaker 2>easy for the parents to drop us all off. So

0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:02.640
<v Speaker 2>it was Yeah, I think municipal golf means a lot

0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.640
<v Speaker 2>to a lot of golfers. And I think, you know,

0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:10.280
<v Speaker 2>in today's world, we're municipal golf is taking such a

0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of a such a back seat and kind of

0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:16.400
<v Speaker 2>a getting abused and in the media whether or not

0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:20.160
<v Speaker 2>municipal municipalities should be in the golf business, and I

0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:22.120
<v Speaker 2>contend that it should.

0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:27.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I agree. I I don't know, it frustrates me

0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:33.480
<v Speaker 1>because those courses were built kind of seemingly all at

0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.359
<v Speaker 1>like a really bad time. So they, you know, for

0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.239
<v Speaker 1>the most part of municipal golf courses like the least

0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.719
<v Speaker 1>innovative golf course that you'll see. It's you know, they're

0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:46.960
<v Speaker 1>pretty cookie cutter and pretty unimaginative. And I think if

0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:49.560
<v Speaker 1>they at the time when they were built, golf was

0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:53.400
<v Speaker 1>so exclusive and they're missing the inclusive nature of a

0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:54.920
<v Speaker 1>of a community course.

0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, a lot of those a lot of those

0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.200
<v Speaker 2>courses are integrated in to the fabric of the county

0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:06.359
<v Speaker 2>or city park system, so I think it was just

0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:08.680
<v Speaker 2>kind of part and parcel. You'd have open space, you'd

0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.279
<v Speaker 2>have trails, you'd have camping, you'd have maybe a lake

0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:13.800
<v Speaker 2>or something, and then you have a golf course. So

0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.039
<v Speaker 2>it's the inclusivity of golf and the community nature of

0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:22.159
<v Speaker 2>golf has been there, and I think, I think I'm

0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.800
<v Speaker 2>one to believe that the community golf is at the

0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:29.320
<v Speaker 2>very beginning of a complete revitalization. And I don't I'm

0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:31.599
<v Speaker 2>not quitting that with all kinds of people playing golf,

0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:35.320
<v Speaker 2>but the golf course, municipal golf course industry, I think

0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.240
<v Speaker 2>is just prime for a pivot, and there's just too

0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:41.679
<v Speaker 2>many of them out there, and there's too many success

0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:43.920
<v Speaker 2>stories and too many good models that are being followed

0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.520
<v Speaker 2>today that I think it's just at the beginning of

0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:50.520
<v Speaker 2>a new awareness of golf. What I like to call

0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.799
<v Speaker 2>community golf. I'd rather not call it municipal golf anymore,

0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:55.200
<v Speaker 2>because I think we all think of that as a

0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.080
<v Speaker 2>negative term. Because you can't have a great, you know,

0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:02.560
<v Speaker 2>really interesting, strategic golf course and turns people through and

0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:05.160
<v Speaker 2>maintain for reasonable budget, reasonable budget.

0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:09.880
<v Speaker 1>It seems like that a better, more well designed golf

0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:14.840
<v Speaker 1>course would be way more beneficial for a community because

0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.960
<v Speaker 1>you'd be able to get people around it faster, they'd

0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.000
<v Speaker 1>have more fun, and it'd be more beginner friendly, while

0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.840
<v Speaker 1>it'd be way more interesting for an expert player.

0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's what's business right now, is what

0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:33.800
<v Speaker 2>exactly is the right balance of strategy and heroic design.

0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:35.720
<v Speaker 2>And some might call it. You know, we went through

0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:39.160
<v Speaker 2>a period of penal design, balancing the right level of

0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.440
<v Speaker 2>challenge with with just letting people have fun and play

0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:44.720
<v Speaker 2>the game. And I think that, you know, when I

0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.560
<v Speaker 2>was brought to the game, I actually learned on a

0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:51.320
<v Speaker 2>bill Langford Golf Course, Langford More Golf Course, West Bend

0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Country Club, a little blue collar club out suburbs of Milwaukee,

0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.720
<v Speaker 2>and I remember hitting into these big, huge grass features

0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:01.720
<v Speaker 2>I was I think I started at seven eight seven,

0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:03.520
<v Speaker 2>eight years old, and by the time I was ten,

0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:05.320
<v Speaker 2>I still couldn't get out of these things. I would

0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:09.200
<v Speaker 2>ricochet off the grass bass and I remember thinking, gosh,

0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.480
<v Speaker 2>I better practice, I better get better at this. This

0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:13.840
<v Speaker 2>is this isn't an easy game. And so I think

0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.200
<v Speaker 2>there's a peer there's a part of that that we

0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.200
<v Speaker 2>all as golfers liked the challenge. But I think that

0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:21.360
<v Speaker 2>there's ways I think we went overboard. I think there's

0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:23.280
<v Speaker 2>a there's a way to balance the challenge and the

0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:27.600
<v Speaker 2>strategy and the interest to truly kind of defend the

0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:30.560
<v Speaker 2>course against a better player, but let people play through

0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:34.560
<v Speaker 2>it in a reasonable amount of time. So definitely an opportunity.

0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:38.400
<v Speaker 1>You grew up playing golf, and did you play in

0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:39.719
<v Speaker 1>high school?

0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I played in high school. I was on the

0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.880
<v Speaker 2>high school team. I was on the state championship team. Actually,

0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.640
<v Speaker 2>I guess maybe claim to fame. I played with Mark Wilson,

0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:50.800
<v Speaker 2>the tour pro. He and I were He was a freshman,

0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:54.640
<v Speaker 2>I was a senior. We won state, and I actually

0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.360
<v Speaker 2>had thoughts of trying to play golf in college one

0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.640
<v Speaker 2>day and I realized that probably wasn't gonna happened. I

0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:02.760
<v Speaker 2>got in front of that kind of competition and realized

0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.920
<v Speaker 2>that that that's when you get separated, right. I had

0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:07.800
<v Speaker 2>a better chance of drawing pictures of a golf course

0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:09.559
<v Speaker 2>one day as opposed to playing them for a living.

0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:14.440
<v Speaker 1>So you went to school and you studied. You wanted

0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.360
<v Speaker 1>to be a golf course architect from you know, the

0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:18.720
<v Speaker 1>day you stepped out of school.

0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:24.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So when I I was practicing every day. I

0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:26.000
<v Speaker 2>got the bug when I was when I was a

0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.959
<v Speaker 2>kid through high school, and my dad saw the level

0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:34.120
<v Speaker 2>of interest and I actually started building my own golf

0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:37.280
<v Speaker 2>course out of a sand beach in northern Wisconsin, and

0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.280
<v Speaker 2>my dad saw me tending to it every weekend and

0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:44.280
<v Speaker 2>he said, you know, you know, son, the people designed

0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.560
<v Speaker 2>golf courses for a living. And that was the time,

0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:48.320
<v Speaker 2>I think it was around twelve. I was like, that

0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:50.560
<v Speaker 2>just blew my mind. I had no idea that that

0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.600
<v Speaker 2>was even possible. I thought golf courses just appeared. And

0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.280
<v Speaker 2>at that point I said, well, how do I do that?

0:09:57.320 --> 0:09:59.079
<v Speaker 2>And of course my dad said that I don't know,

0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.240
<v Speaker 2>and so he did some calling around and told me

0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:05.160
<v Speaker 2>that I should go study. You know, the idea at

0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:08.440
<v Speaker 2>the time was to go study landscape architecture in school,

0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.200
<v Speaker 2>and so I said, right then, I'm going to go

0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:12.360
<v Speaker 2>to school study landscape architecture. So as soon as I

0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:14.680
<v Speaker 2>got into school, you know, everybody was trying to in

0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:18.720
<v Speaker 2>my department of building buildings or designing parks or you know,

0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.400
<v Speaker 2>working in urban planning, and I was the lone golf

0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:24.280
<v Speaker 2>course guy, you know, at the University of Arkansas is

0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:25.600
<v Speaker 2>where I went. So that was a team that I

0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.240
<v Speaker 2>tried to walk on the golf team, but realized that

0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:30.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, the coach at the time, said, He asked

0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:32.840
<v Speaker 2>me what I was studying, and I said, I'm studying

0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:35.040
<v Speaker 2>landscape architecture. I want to be a golf course architect.

0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.440
<v Speaker 2>When I grew up, he says, well, you realize that

0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:39.600
<v Speaker 2>you either play golf or study architecture. You don't do

0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.240
<v Speaker 2>both here. I'm okay, Well that's a pretty clear that's

0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.200
<v Speaker 2>an easy decision for me. So, yeah, they were about

0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:47.480
<v Speaker 2>twelve years old that there was such a thing and

0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.000
<v Speaker 2>that that's what I wanted to do. I feel very

0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:51.040
<v Speaker 2>fortunate for that.

0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.640
<v Speaker 1>That's neat. I always think back to my childhood and

0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:58.120
<v Speaker 1>I remember there was a Microsoft game golf game that

0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.520
<v Speaker 1>you could design your own golf course, and I would

0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.839
<v Speaker 1>do that all the time. And and and then my

0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.200
<v Speaker 1>buddy and I would play whiffletball in our in our street,

0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:10.600
<v Speaker 1>in our front yards, and we, you know, essentially designed

0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.960
<v Speaker 1>golf holes in our own way, playing from tree to tree.

0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.480
<v Speaker 1>Amazing the imagination of a of a kid. I bet

0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.880
<v Speaker 1>your your philosophies of golf course design have changed a

0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:21.360
<v Speaker 1>little bit.

0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I of course did the same thing, hitting

0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.680
<v Speaker 2>off trees, and you know, I had a sand green.

0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.280
<v Speaker 2>So this was a little cup in my little sand green.

0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:33.760
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I remember the first time, you know, this Winachy,

0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:35.480
<v Speaker 2>this county course I was telling you about, had a

0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:37.880
<v Speaker 2>bunch of hanging lakes. So you would go up over

0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:40.120
<v Speaker 2>a ridge and you'd hit it over the top of

0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:41.920
<v Speaker 2>the ridge, and then you'd come to the top and

0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:44.680
<v Speaker 2>realized there was a pond there. You're like, shoot, there's

0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:47.319
<v Speaker 2>a blind to sit in the water. I couldn't see

0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.640
<v Speaker 2>it was a blind lake, right, and so me as

0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.520
<v Speaker 2>a young golfer, well, I should have known that there

0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:54.959
<v Speaker 2>was a laser, should have been able to see through

0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.360
<v Speaker 2>that ridge. Well, the first time I realized that somebody

0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:02.120
<v Speaker 2>actually placed the lake there, as a designer, it started that,

0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, things started to go off in my mind,

0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:07.040
<v Speaker 2>like why in the world would you put it there? Then,

0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.520
<v Speaker 2>of course now you're blaming the designer, not not your

0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:13.000
<v Speaker 2>own game, of course. But yeah, it's certainly changed and

0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.959
<v Speaker 2>involved as you educate yourself through the business and through

0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:17.760
<v Speaker 2>the through through time for sure.

0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:22.839
<v Speaker 1>So after you get out of school, where'd you go work?

0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.640
<v Speaker 1>Right off the how'd you get kind of into the

0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.719
<v Speaker 1>architecture industry? I imagine it being somebody that came out

0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:30.480
<v Speaker 1>in the nineties.

0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:35.560
<v Speaker 2>It was booming yeah, So, yeah, I started working. I

0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.439
<v Speaker 2>had a mentor through school. We did a it's part

0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:42.600
<v Speaker 2>of my thesis. I did a design of a golf

0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:44.680
<v Speaker 2>course on top of a landfill. And I worked with

0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.040
<v Speaker 2>a guy named Jerry Slack out of Tulsa, which was

0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.160
<v Speaker 2>a He was more of a land planner. He was

0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:52.160
<v Speaker 2>a golf course architect on his own right. But he

0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:53.719
<v Speaker 2>was the one that said, if you really want to

0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.240
<v Speaker 2>start in this business, go work in construction. So this

0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:01.880
<v Speaker 2>was probably a nineteen ninety three ninety four, and so

0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.360
<v Speaker 2>my first my first job was really working with Wadsworth

0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.000
<v Speaker 2>Golf Construction. I started up in Green Bay, Wisconsin and

0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:12.000
<v Speaker 2>then down to Texas, and so really my entree to

0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:16.120
<v Speaker 2>the business was through the construction world. And then Jerry,

0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:18.920
<v Speaker 2>once he saw that I had kind of followed his

0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of his path, his preferred path, he hired me

0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:27.080
<v Speaker 2>to become a draftsman. So I was drawing. My first

0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.000
<v Speaker 2>job was drawing plans by hand. It was before we

0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:32.240
<v Speaker 2>had CAD or any type of computer. I remember helping

0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.360
<v Speaker 2>him through the first computer we bought to try to

0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.880
<v Speaker 2>get CAD in the office. But so that was in Tulsa.

0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:40.560
<v Speaker 2>That's how I kind of broke in the business. So

0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.360
<v Speaker 2>I like to say that I wouldn't have gotten that

0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:45.959
<v Speaker 2>job had it not started on the construction side.

0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.160
<v Speaker 1>That makes sense. I mean back then, construction was like

0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:54.720
<v Speaker 1>the thing I mean was a golf course a day

0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.480
<v Speaker 1>that everybody was saying that America needed to build to

0:13:57.559 --> 0:13:59.520
<v Speaker 1>keep up with the pace of the growing game.

0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:04.160
<v Speaker 2>That's right. The NGF said, golf course today, and we tried.

0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.640
<v Speaker 2>We definitely tried for a while. We were doing what

0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.280
<v Speaker 2>one year, we did five hundred golf courses in a year.

0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:14.600
<v Speaker 1>I mean it goes back to the you know, current state.

0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Everybody associates golf courses closing with bad, but you know,

0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.960
<v Speaker 1>in muni's closing with bad. But I think part of

0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.640
<v Speaker 1>it is just a market normalizing to what it should be.

0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:29.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to that.

0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.880
<v Speaker 2>I you know, the the idea that we were building

0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.280
<v Speaker 2>that kind of that kind of quantity over that short

0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.440
<v Speaker 2>period of time is really now looking back, and I'm

0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.840
<v Speaker 2>pretty mind blowing that that it even was was possible.

0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:44.320
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I'm a firm believer. But it's one of

0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:48.000
<v Speaker 2>my messages was as I talked to the municipal sector

0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.280
<v Speaker 2>that that I talked to is that, you know what,

0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:55.480
<v Speaker 2>closing your golf course is a real is a real option.

0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.480
<v Speaker 2>So let's let's talk about that for a second. You know,

0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 2>before we even go any further about improving your course,

0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.520
<v Speaker 2>let's talk about is there support for the course and

0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.040
<v Speaker 2>whether it should stay open. So I'm I'm one that

0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.240
<v Speaker 2>certainly is not a not against any closures because there's

0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:14.200
<v Speaker 2>a reason for why those those courses aren't making it. Yeah,

0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:14.880
<v Speaker 2>I agree.

0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.360
<v Speaker 1>I think there's there's courses that should close, and there's

0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.640
<v Speaker 1>courses that shouldn't close. And I think, you know, there

0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.960
<v Speaker 1>needs to be some sort of at some point in

0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:27.640
<v Speaker 1>the near future, some sort of initiative from the us

0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.640
<v Speaker 1>GA to you know, use some of their money to

0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:35.920
<v Speaker 1>support the ones that really shouldn't close. And and and

0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:38.400
<v Speaker 1>that's that's what bugs me is like some of these,

0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.000
<v Speaker 1>like you're familiar with Detroit area, but like that Rackham

0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:45.320
<v Speaker 1>course that was on the brink of closing, Like that's

0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.200
<v Speaker 1>a course that you know, a ton of history, Donald

0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:52.360
<v Speaker 1>Ross design, it's it's tied very closely to the city.

0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.800
<v Speaker 1>That's that's a course that shouldn't close. It might need

0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:57.840
<v Speaker 1>to be a little bit different of a concept than

0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.640
<v Speaker 1>it is currently and have a little bit forward thinking concepts.

0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.840
<v Speaker 1>But that's a golf course that that should be helped

0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.000
<v Speaker 1>and subsidized from Golf's governing body. Do you, I mean,

0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:09.280
<v Speaker 1>what do you what do you think about the U

0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:13.680
<v Speaker 1>s g A and and mini golf community.

0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:17.000
<v Speaker 2>Golf community is here, right, So what do I think

0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:18.640
<v Speaker 2>Do I think the USGA should be the one to

0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:22.240
<v Speaker 2>step up into that? I think at the I don't

0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.640
<v Speaker 2>think we're there at that point. I don't know that

0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.880
<v Speaker 2>the municipal sector would is positioned right to be able

0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:30.040
<v Speaker 2>to take those kind of funds. It's like, you know,

0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.520
<v Speaker 2>the stimulus dollars just a couple of years ago, right, So,

0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, I understand trying to kick start an industry

0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.680
<v Speaker 2>and and finding maybe some showcase properties that make some sense.

0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 2>And to be honest, I mean that the way they've

0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.000
<v Speaker 2>showcased it is around their Open Championship. That's that's been

0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:47.720
<v Speaker 2>the way you know, they've brought it to the public sector.

0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:51.600
<v Speaker 2>They've they brought the you know, the US Open you know,

0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:55.240
<v Speaker 2>rotation or courses to try to get you know, the

0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:59.120
<v Speaker 2>golf under a certain you know message that it's open

0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.160
<v Speaker 2>to the public. But you know, in terms of putting

0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:03.600
<v Speaker 2>money towards municipalities. And you talk about Rackham, I mean,

0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:07.119
<v Speaker 2>you got some other issues there with Rackham that you know,

0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.120
<v Speaker 2>and it's not necessarily unique to the City of Detroit.

0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:15.119
<v Speaker 2>It's unique to just this idea that the backing and

0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.800
<v Speaker 2>the ability to support public golf. There's not enough people

0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:23.520
<v Speaker 2>at the highest levels of their government that support golf,

0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:29.480
<v Speaker 2>and so I think unproper support. And the city has

0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:33.280
<v Speaker 2>the ability more times than not to support and subsidize golf.

0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.240
<v Speaker 2>It's just they're choosing not to because of the messaging

0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.000
<v Speaker 2>that's happening about the negativity towards golf. But when you

0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.960
<v Speaker 2>start thinking about all the people that actually have a

0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:43.679
<v Speaker 2>chance to visit a golf course, and that's one of

0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.480
<v Speaker 2>my messages to my community golf messages that it needs

0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:48.800
<v Speaker 2>to expand the user group so that it's not just

0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.520
<v Speaker 2>about the ten percent to play golf, that it's more

0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:56.320
<v Speaker 2>about walking trails and outdoor activities and you know, any

0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.159
<v Speaker 2>type of use. You know, it's not necessarily a clubhouse anymore,

0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:01.920
<v Speaker 2>it's more of a community building. Yeah, if you start

0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:05.280
<v Speaker 2>to pivot on those types of messaging messages, I think

0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.159
<v Speaker 2>the USGA's role can help support that. But I think

0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:10.520
<v Speaker 2>if we look to them to try to save municipal golf,

0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:13.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know that I agree with that, but there's

0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.000
<v Speaker 2>certainly a powerful message there that needs to be in

0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:17.520
<v Speaker 2>support of municipal golf.

0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:22.400
<v Speaker 1>So getting into your community golf and on your website

0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:27.359
<v Speaker 1>you've got just great resources, white paper and different things

0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.000
<v Speaker 1>about you know, the way your kind of philosophy on

0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.159
<v Speaker 1>what community golf should be. And I think what you

0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:37.720
<v Speaker 1>said about inclusive is such a big deal. You know,

0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:41.680
<v Speaker 1>we're it's almost more of a model that you would

0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:46.679
<v Speaker 1>see in England and Scotland and Ireland than what the

0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.800
<v Speaker 1>traditional community or municipal community golf is in America.

0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.600
<v Speaker 2>Right, absolutely, Yeah. I think it's funny how many people

0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:59.280
<v Speaker 2>when I get in front of the municipal stakeholders and

0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.480
<v Speaker 2>tell them about the old course at Saint Andrews and

0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:03.680
<v Speaker 2>the fact that it closes down on Sunday and becomes

0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:07.440
<v Speaker 2>a park, people can walk across the entire golf course

0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.600
<v Speaker 2>and property. They're blown away. They're like, I can't believe

0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.160
<v Speaker 2>that we love walking on golf courses. We should consider that, right,

0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:18.359
<v Speaker 2>And so, you know, it's funny how when you go

0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:21.920
<v Speaker 2>to when you go throughout the world. You know, I studied,

0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.479
<v Speaker 2>I studied in Denmark for a semester and I actually

0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:29.439
<v Speaker 2>I actually or the study focus was on urban planning,

0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:30.760
<v Speaker 2>but we had a chance to go out to all

0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:35.040
<v Speaker 2>kinds of park plans and we studied throughout Scandinavia, including

0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:39.240
<v Speaker 2>Stockholm and Sweden. And there was a a specific because

0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.399
<v Speaker 2>it was part of my study, there was a specific

0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:47.119
<v Speaker 2>park property called Woodland Cemetery. It was this broad open space.

0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:49.119
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't a golf course, it was a cemetery, but

0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.240
<v Speaker 2>it basically felt like a golf course, and you would

0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.679
<v Speaker 2>go through a series of trails and transitions from space

0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.680
<v Speaker 2>to space. There was there was chapels, there was auditoriums,

0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:02.840
<v Speaker 2>there were crematory as. There was open space too to

0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.719
<v Speaker 2>be outside in nature. And I think when you people

0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:09.879
<v Speaker 2>are drawn to that kind of experience, and for us

0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:12.920
<v Speaker 2>as golfers, we happen to do that. We actually experience

0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:15.080
<v Speaker 2>an open space with a with a stick and a

0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:18.000
<v Speaker 2>ball in our in our in our possession. And so

0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:20.399
<v Speaker 2>to me, when you just start to think about the

0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:25.359
<v Speaker 2>innate characteristics of being outside and playing sport, you know, golf,

0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:29.280
<v Speaker 2>golf falls right in line with all of those things

0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:31.240
<v Speaker 2>I think that we are drawn to and you know,

0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.240
<v Speaker 2>so now it just tells me it's a messaging issue.

0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:35.760
<v Speaker 2>It's it's how are we presenting it? And we should

0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:38.919
<v Speaker 2>be presenting it not necessarily across the board. I understand that,

0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:42.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, golf has many different faces, but but from

0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.880
<v Speaker 2>these particular community golf courses, they need to be presented

0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:47.520
<v Speaker 2>and the messaging needs to be proper and needs to

0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:50.520
<v Speaker 2>start from the very beginning, on the very top of government.

0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:52.879
<v Speaker 2>And so I think, I think we just need to

0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:55.000
<v Speaker 2>we have a we have a marketing and a messaging

0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:56.119
<v Speaker 2>issue as much as anything.

0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:01.560
<v Speaker 1>It's funny when you're thinking about just thinking while you're talking,

0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.200
<v Speaker 1>like something that just sticks out to me that's so

0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:08.399
<v Speaker 1>so simple that no, like barely any courses in America do,

0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:13.359
<v Speaker 1>is like why can't my dog come with me? Like

0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:15.680
<v Speaker 1>you know how much easier it would be if you

0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:17.199
<v Speaker 1>could take your dog out? Like do you know how

0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:18.840
<v Speaker 1>much easier it would be for me to get my

0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.119
<v Speaker 1>wife out if our dog could come? Like you know,

0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:23.399
<v Speaker 1>it all of a sudden becomes more than you know,

0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:26.320
<v Speaker 1>You're you're spending time outside in a beautiful place. You

0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:28.880
<v Speaker 1>know it goes back to the landscape architecture, like, I mean,

0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.560
<v Speaker 1>there's so much you know, you can do with a

0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:36.119
<v Speaker 1>beautiful green space, a big beautiful green space. And so

0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:40.119
<v Speaker 1>your kind of rock Wind Links was, was is your

0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:43.440
<v Speaker 1>big calling card for a community golf It explained to

0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:47.200
<v Speaker 1>us a little bit about you know, rock Wind as

0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:49.600
<v Speaker 1>a golf course but also a community center.

0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:54.520
<v Speaker 2>Sure. So rock Wind Community Links is in Hobbs, New Mexico.

0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:58.520
<v Speaker 2>It was it was host of an old military golf

0:21:58.560 --> 0:22:03.359
<v Speaker 2>course built in the forties. They did training sessions on

0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:07.720
<v Speaker 2>the property right next they were housing a military personnel

0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:10.719
<v Speaker 2>on the property they converted to a golf course and

0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.639
<v Speaker 2>it was just I guess you could say it was

0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:15.760
<v Speaker 2>poorly built. And then on top of that, it was

0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:17.920
<v Speaker 2>on a piece of rock. It's you know, rock Wind.

0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:20.879
<v Speaker 2>They called it the rock Callichi Rock. So it was

0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:24.520
<v Speaker 2>it was a typical municipally on golf course that was,

0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:27.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, deteriorating in front of everyone's eyes. They needed a

0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.800
<v Speaker 2>new irrigation. They they had hard time, you know, having

0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:35.520
<v Speaker 2>any quality turf. The soil wasn't great, and they kept

0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:39.120
<v Speaker 2>coming up to the to the council to say, hey,

0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:41.720
<v Speaker 2>we need to start putting some improvements to this, and

0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:45.399
<v Speaker 2>each time, you know, they kept it wasn't as if

0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:47.159
<v Speaker 2>they were saying no, but they said that there was

0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:51.199
<v Speaker 2>higher priorities before we started improving the golf course. So

0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:54.440
<v Speaker 2>when I was introduced to the club, I was actually

0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:57.280
<v Speaker 2>hired to do a little part three course. They wanted

0:22:57.280 --> 0:22:58.920
<v Speaker 2>to do an assessment to say, hey, we see a

0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:02.080
<v Speaker 2>lot of these beginner courses starting to say we have

0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:04.359
<v Speaker 2>an eighteen hole golf course. We have a kind of

0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:06.439
<v Speaker 2>sort of a driving range. It wasn't great at a

0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:08.520
<v Speaker 2>net at the back of it was really short, but hey,

0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:11.119
<v Speaker 2>let's talk about putting a short course. So part of

0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:13.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, my initial plan was just to build a

0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.760
<v Speaker 2>little nine hole, twelve hole part three course. And I said, well, guys,

0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:19.200
<v Speaker 2>did you think about this, you know, because it was

0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:21.880
<v Speaker 2>really disconnected and went through a bunch of different ideas.

0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:23.840
<v Speaker 2>I said, well, actually, what we need to be thinking

0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:28.160
<v Speaker 2>about is broadly, how is this facility attracting golfers and

0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:31.520
<v Speaker 2>training them and transitioning them from the beginnings through on

0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:35.400
<v Speaker 2>to the serious golfer. And I presented them the community

0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:38.639
<v Speaker 2>links concept. I said, this is it isn't just about golfers. Anymore.

0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:43.200
<v Speaker 2>Now we'll talk about developing people through life and family

0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:45.840
<v Speaker 2>and those types of things. And the city manager at

0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:48.600
<v Speaker 2>the time was listening to me and he's like, you

0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:51.520
<v Speaker 2>know what, that's interesting. I can I can sell that

0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:54.960
<v Speaker 2>and my my council will buy into that. So we

0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:57.080
<v Speaker 2>went in front of council, said this is what we're thinking.

0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:01.200
<v Speaker 2>And it turned from you know, a sim irrigation project

0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:04.480
<v Speaker 2>or a part three course, to now the golf course

0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:09.359
<v Speaker 2>becoming a central component of their entire community. That Hobbs

0:24:09.200 --> 0:24:12.919
<v Speaker 2>is oil and gas driven, so timing is everything. They

0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:15.920
<v Speaker 2>were seeing oil prices on the rise at the time

0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:21.080
<v Speaker 2>and in a very pro golf mayor and a couple

0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:23.040
<v Speaker 2>of people on the council that played golf. Not everybody,

0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:25.560
<v Speaker 2>but a couple. So when we went in front of

0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:27.200
<v Speaker 2>them and said, hey, before we go any farther, we

0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:29.960
<v Speaker 2>want to see if you're if you're interested in this,

0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:32.040
<v Speaker 2>and we're really proud to say that every time we

0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:33.960
<v Speaker 2>went in front of council with what we tried to do,

0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:37.600
<v Speaker 2>we got seven to zero votes in favor that this

0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:40.320
<v Speaker 2>golf course should become a central part of the city

0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:44.400
<v Speaker 2>plan and it and and that this idea that we're

0:24:44.400 --> 0:24:47.239
<v Speaker 2>going to diversify the user group to attract more than

0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:51.359
<v Speaker 2>just golfers. Was tangible. They saw that, So we have

0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:54.280
<v Speaker 2>a trail system. We've got an open We built a

0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:58.520
<v Speaker 2>five acre affluent water storage that the golf course here

0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:02.240
<v Speaker 2>uses for irrigation, which then has an open space adjacent

0:25:02.240 --> 0:25:05.560
<v Speaker 2>to it. So if the trail system connects through the

0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:08.520
<v Speaker 2>through the clubhouse, community center area and then has a

0:25:08.560 --> 0:25:12.200
<v Speaker 2>spot where where golfers non golfers can actually watch people

0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:14.720
<v Speaker 2>play golf. There's a par three real close across the water,

0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:17.760
<v Speaker 2>so they can sit on a little seat wall. There's

0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:20.760
<v Speaker 2>a nice big open green space next to the range,

0:25:20.800 --> 0:25:24.840
<v Speaker 2>so that we have you know, kids programs. SNAG golf

0:25:24.920 --> 0:25:26.800
<v Speaker 2>is a big part of what they do. SNAG is

0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:29.600
<v Speaker 2>now in all their schools as a part of this project.

0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:34.320
<v Speaker 2>The community college plays there, so you know, they have

0:25:34.800 --> 0:25:39.359
<v Speaker 2>expandable outdoor event areas, so they put on symphonies and

0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:41.560
<v Speaker 2>you know this in Hobbes, this is this was the

0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:44.800
<v Speaker 2>basically the middle of the city. Now everything happens at

0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:48.080
<v Speaker 2>their golf course. And it couldn't have come together any better.

0:25:48.119 --> 0:25:52.520
<v Speaker 2>We had support from everybody across UH there, their level

0:25:52.520 --> 0:25:56.280
<v Speaker 2>of government, government and uh. And speaking of the us J,

0:25:56.440 --> 0:25:59.680
<v Speaker 2>they've they've now they've labeled it as the model MUNI

0:25:59.720 --> 0:26:02.040
<v Speaker 2>if you will, for others to look at.

0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:05.040
<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of people like you go in

0:26:05.119 --> 0:26:07.400
<v Speaker 1>and say, hey, like, you know, let's fix this golf

0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:09.960
<v Speaker 1>course up. Let's you know, make it this and this

0:26:10.080 --> 0:26:14.639
<v Speaker 1>and this, so this this course you know needed obviously irrigation,

0:26:14.720 --> 0:26:17.080
<v Speaker 1>which is a big and it's a good timing piece

0:26:17.200 --> 0:26:21.479
<v Speaker 1>for doing a project. But in terms of economics, like

0:26:21.800 --> 0:26:24.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, how can how can IMMUNI look at this

0:26:24.600 --> 0:26:27.959
<v Speaker 1>and say we're gonna we're it's not going to crush

0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:31.160
<v Speaker 1>our bottom line with with the project.

0:26:32.720 --> 0:26:35.040
<v Speaker 2>That's that's the biggest question. I guess like, okay, well

0:26:35.080 --> 0:26:37.120
<v Speaker 2>great you did that at rock winn There's no way

0:26:37.160 --> 0:26:40.400
<v Speaker 2>we can do that here. And I always turn around

0:26:40.400 --> 0:26:43.199
<v Speaker 2>say are you sure that you can't? So you know,

0:26:43.240 --> 0:26:46.920
<v Speaker 2>most every city is making some pretty major investments in

0:26:46.960 --> 0:26:49.159
<v Speaker 2>the quality of life, and so to me, it's about

0:26:49.359 --> 0:26:53.280
<v Speaker 2>understanding what's important. And so the very first thing is

0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:57.080
<v Speaker 2>is a is a marketing and a messaging issue that

0:26:57.080 --> 0:26:59.800
<v Speaker 2>that I'll stand in front of the council and I'll say, okay,

0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:04.040
<v Speaker 2>who here plays golf? And more than likely one or

0:27:04.040 --> 0:27:06.240
<v Speaker 2>two out of seven or nine will raise their hand.

0:27:06.240 --> 0:27:08.919
<v Speaker 2>I said, okay, well who here has played golf? And

0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:11.600
<v Speaker 2>then a couple more people raise the hand, and so

0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:15.800
<v Speaker 2>to me, I immediately go back to the discussion that

0:27:15.840 --> 0:27:18.800
<v Speaker 2>if if we don't understand the value of what this

0:27:18.880 --> 0:27:21.520
<v Speaker 2>golf course could mean to the city or for the

0:27:21.600 --> 0:27:24.720
<v Speaker 2>minispet or the area, the community, the county, then we

0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:26.760
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't even be talking about anything. I would tell you

0:27:26.800 --> 0:27:29.119
<v Speaker 2>that you should be considering closing this golf course. And

0:27:29.119 --> 0:27:31.720
<v Speaker 2>then of course everyone's like, no, we can't close this

0:27:31.800 --> 0:27:34.080
<v Speaker 2>golf course. You know, well, you know, we have a

0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:36.280
<v Speaker 2>lot of people to play golf here. We'll ultimately only have,

0:27:36.840 --> 0:27:39.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, a few thousand rounds a year. And so

0:27:39.400 --> 0:27:41.520
<v Speaker 2>I start to say, let's start building pride. So that's

0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:45.120
<v Speaker 2>number one is messaging and support of golf. And then

0:27:45.160 --> 0:27:52.159
<v Speaker 2>almost always there are practice facilities, short tees, you know,

0:27:52.280 --> 0:27:55.440
<v Speaker 2>open space that you can carve out. It's really challenging

0:27:55.480 --> 0:27:58.920
<v Speaker 2>this idea that an eighteen hole regulation course is what's

0:27:59.000 --> 0:28:03.160
<v Speaker 2>right for for cities across the country. So not every

0:28:03.200 --> 0:28:05.719
<v Speaker 2>golf course needs to be seven thousand yards sixty two

0:28:05.800 --> 0:28:08.000
<v Speaker 2>hundred yard golf courses just fine for a lot of people.

0:28:08.040 --> 0:28:12.280
<v Speaker 2>So we look at kind of carving out spaces within

0:28:13.280 --> 0:28:15.440
<v Speaker 2>the space to be able to do that. And then

0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:17.960
<v Speaker 2>I also I talk about it in terms of a roadmap,

0:28:18.040 --> 0:28:20.280
<v Speaker 2>So this isn't going to happen over a short doesn't

0:28:20.280 --> 0:28:22.080
<v Speaker 2>always have to happen over a short period of time.

0:28:22.080 --> 0:28:25.120
<v Speaker 2>It just needs to be the messaging needs to be accurate,

0:28:25.680 --> 0:28:28.200
<v Speaker 2>It needs to be repeated over and over and then

0:28:28.400 --> 0:28:32.119
<v Speaker 2>implemented at the pace that you guys feel is appropriate

0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:34.000
<v Speaker 2>for funding. But if you're not going to fund it,

0:28:34.040 --> 0:28:36.879
<v Speaker 2>then I would just tell you that you consider closing it.

0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:40.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it seems like they got to get behind it

0:28:40.960 --> 0:28:41.760
<v Speaker 1>or get out.

0:28:42.720 --> 0:28:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:28:43.120 --> 0:28:46.920
<v Speaker 1>And I think differentiation to me is something that always

0:28:46.920 --> 0:28:51.480
<v Speaker 1>sticks out too, is that I've been dealing with this

0:28:51.520 --> 0:28:53.360
<v Speaker 1>a little bit with the course I grew up playing,

0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:57.240
<v Speaker 1>is thinking about closing, and you look at the landscape

0:28:57.280 --> 0:29:00.880
<v Speaker 1>and they're all the same golf course that were built

0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:03.800
<v Speaker 1>in the same period, and this just row of everything

0:29:03.800 --> 0:29:07.640
<v Speaker 1>around it, and it's it's just like, of course, then

0:29:07.760 --> 0:29:10.800
<v Speaker 1>all of a sudden, it becomes price is the thing

0:29:10.880 --> 0:29:13.960
<v Speaker 1>that you compete on because you're no different than everything else.

0:29:15.160 --> 0:29:19.240
<v Speaker 2>I I wholeheartedly agree that that that in order for

0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:22.320
<v Speaker 2>community golf to be successful, it has to be able

0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:25.400
<v Speaker 2>to provide something that not not anyone else is providing.

0:29:25.480 --> 0:29:29.080
<v Speaker 2>So if you look around your golf landscape, you need

0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:31.400
<v Speaker 2>to find what it is that you know that that

0:29:31.400 --> 0:29:34.360
<v Speaker 2>that that the private business isn't isn't providing or doesn't

0:29:34.360 --> 0:29:37.760
<v Speaker 2>want to provide. So that's where these these short courses,

0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:41.360
<v Speaker 2>that's where the practice facilities and driving range concepts. That's

0:29:41.360 --> 0:29:44.640
<v Speaker 2>why top golf, I think, is becoming so so popular.

0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:47.600
<v Speaker 2>It's it's it's providing something that that the that the

0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:50.360
<v Speaker 2>rest of the golf community is not not giving everyone.

0:29:50.680 --> 0:29:52.440
<v Speaker 2>And so as long as you can stand up and

0:29:52.480 --> 0:29:56.520
<v Speaker 2>say that this is a course that's providing a benefit

0:29:56.560 --> 0:30:00.160
<v Speaker 2>to my community in ways that the private market is

0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:02.600
<v Speaker 2>is not able to, then that's that's our niche. That's

0:30:02.640 --> 0:30:05.800
<v Speaker 2>where the community golf starts to say, all right, then

0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:08.560
<v Speaker 2>a two hundred thousand dollars subsidies starts to make sense

0:30:08.640 --> 0:30:14.000
<v Speaker 2>because one, it's a smaller footprints, so we're using less resources,

0:30:14.840 --> 0:30:17.760
<v Speaker 2>less less dollars. Oh, by the way, you can play

0:30:17.760 --> 0:30:22.400
<v Speaker 2>it much quicker, and and it's you know, it's it's

0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:25.120
<v Speaker 2>it's able to attract an area that of the of

0:30:25.160 --> 0:30:29.240
<v Speaker 2>the population that wouldn't necessarily go to that championship eight

0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:31.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, eighteen whole seven thousand yard golf course.

0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:35.120
<v Speaker 1>I even think about it with the course I'm talking about,

0:30:35.160 --> 0:30:39.120
<v Speaker 1>like in the area, there's no good driving ranges. Like alone,

0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:42.640
<v Speaker 1>having a driving range, you're going, like a really quality

0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:45.320
<v Speaker 1>driving range, You're going to attract people that are members

0:30:45.360 --> 0:30:48.320
<v Speaker 1>of the country clubs that have subpar driving ranges.

0:30:49.040 --> 0:30:52.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's it's quite interesting for me to look back

0:30:52.360 --> 0:30:54.719
<v Speaker 2>on properties that we're all built in this this window

0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:57.600
<v Speaker 2>that we're we're talking about in the nineties, how the

0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:01.360
<v Speaker 2>driving range was was you know, the history says you

0:31:01.400 --> 0:31:03.200
<v Speaker 2>were lucky to have a driving range, and then when

0:31:03.240 --> 0:31:05.920
<v Speaker 2>you did, it was just for warm up purposes. So

0:31:05.960 --> 0:31:08.360
<v Speaker 2>it really wasn't really thought of as a place that

0:31:08.400 --> 0:31:11.200
<v Speaker 2>people would come and just bang balls and you know,

0:31:12.160 --> 0:31:14.120
<v Speaker 2>tear up turf and dig holes. They would they would

0:31:14.120 --> 0:31:16.200
<v Speaker 2>basically take a couple of swings and go out and

0:31:16.200 --> 0:31:20.360
<v Speaker 2>play golf. That that entire mentality has shifted, and that

0:31:20.800 --> 0:31:23.120
<v Speaker 2>I talk a lot about this myself. That's that's my life,

0:31:23.200 --> 0:31:25.840
<v Speaker 2>That's that's what makes sense to me. I don't go

0:31:25.880 --> 0:31:28.440
<v Speaker 2>out and play eighteen holes with my buddies. Anymore, I

0:31:28.760 --> 0:31:31.800
<v Speaker 2>go out and play four or five holes with my kids.

0:31:31.800 --> 0:31:34.239
<v Speaker 2>I got three young boys, and then I'll take them

0:31:34.280 --> 0:31:36.120
<v Speaker 2>to the to the range to hit balls, and then

0:31:36.160 --> 0:31:37.920
<v Speaker 2>I might take them in and get a soda, right

0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:40.480
<v Speaker 2>so that or maybe put on the green then Dennesota.

0:31:40.640 --> 0:31:43.920
<v Speaker 2>So that to me is a shift in the and

0:31:44.000 --> 0:31:46.719
<v Speaker 2>how we use a golf course. And I think that

0:31:46.720 --> 0:31:49.000
<v Speaker 2>that is a real If you don't have that, if

0:31:49.000 --> 0:31:51.120
<v Speaker 2>you're not trending in that area and the practice facilities

0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:53.680
<v Speaker 2>of driving ranges, then then I think you're missing out.

0:31:54.240 --> 0:31:56.200
<v Speaker 1>It's it's funny. I was talking to my buddy that

0:31:56.360 --> 0:31:59.240
<v Speaker 1>I grew up playing this golf course with, and you know,

0:31:59.280 --> 0:32:02.320
<v Speaker 1>we played in high school together and grew up riding

0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:04.360
<v Speaker 1>our bikes there and we were the same guys that

0:32:04.400 --> 0:32:07.440
<v Speaker 1>were hitting chewing up our neighbor's lawn. But we talked,

0:32:07.760 --> 0:32:09.720
<v Speaker 1>you know, we had coffee. We were talking and it's

0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:13.720
<v Speaker 1>like we spent the most time on that course is

0:32:13.800 --> 0:32:16.440
<v Speaker 1>putting green, and I you know, you start to think

0:32:16.440 --> 0:32:19.320
<v Speaker 1>about why, and it was it was, it was massive,

0:32:19.920 --> 0:32:23.000
<v Speaker 1>it was it was you know, probably like a ten

0:32:23.040 --> 0:32:26.440
<v Speaker 1>thousand square foot putting green. So you we could do

0:32:26.680 --> 0:32:29.320
<v Speaker 1>and you could chip and everything, and you we'd spend

0:32:29.440 --> 0:32:31.680
<v Speaker 1>hours there and we'd never get tired with it. It

0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:34.360
<v Speaker 1>wasn't a great green like in the sense of like

0:32:34.400 --> 0:32:38.120
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't like supremely interesting with contours. But what it

0:32:38.240 --> 0:32:41.280
<v Speaker 1>was was it was free, it was open, and it

0:32:41.320 --> 0:32:44.160
<v Speaker 1>allowed us to like, it was a place we could

0:32:44.200 --> 0:32:47.920
<v Speaker 1>just spend time, you know, and I think exactly, and

0:32:48.040 --> 0:32:50.080
<v Speaker 1>it's like you think about it, it's like we spent

0:32:50.160 --> 0:32:53.440
<v Speaker 1>more time on that putting green, chipping and putting than

0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:54.920
<v Speaker 1>we did playing the golf course.

0:32:56.000 --> 0:33:00.680
<v Speaker 2>Yep. Yeah. So the uh, the city manager got and

0:33:00.760 --> 0:33:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Hobbs for saying, you know, if you're not if a

0:33:03.760 --> 0:33:06.440
<v Speaker 2>city is not too concerned about green fee, you can

0:33:06.520 --> 0:33:09.360
<v Speaker 2>really start to grow the game. And this idea that

0:33:09.440 --> 0:33:11.280
<v Speaker 2>you'd have a bucket of putters next to your putting

0:33:11.280 --> 0:33:13.120
<v Speaker 2>green where there was a walking trail, that someone might

0:33:13.160 --> 0:33:15.320
<v Speaker 2>actually pull a putter and hit a ball because they've

0:33:15.320 --> 0:33:18.720
<v Speaker 2>never done that before. You know, the business mind in

0:33:18.720 --> 0:33:20.760
<v Speaker 2>golf says, well, I should charge them for that. That

0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:23.800
<v Speaker 2>should be a five dollars putting course fee, right, And

0:33:23.840 --> 0:33:27.000
<v Speaker 2>so this this is back to this idea of community golf.

0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:29.880
<v Speaker 2>I understand they're doing really good things like down in

0:33:30.040 --> 0:33:32.800
<v Speaker 2>winter Park. You know this idea that that it's not

0:33:32.920 --> 0:33:34.920
<v Speaker 2>all about a green fee, and it's not all about

0:33:35.560 --> 0:33:37.959
<v Speaker 2>you know, revenue. Sometimes it's more about an asset and

0:33:38.120 --> 0:33:42.080
<v Speaker 2>the quality of life and spending time with your family discussion,

0:33:42.120 --> 0:33:44.000
<v Speaker 2>and you know, those are the ways to do it,

0:33:44.200 --> 0:33:47.040
<v Speaker 2>and it's proven we just haven't. We just ignored it

0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:48.640
<v Speaker 2>for twenty years. That's why I'm saying that I think

0:33:48.680 --> 0:33:50.360
<v Speaker 2>that it's it's prime for a comeback.

0:33:50.840 --> 0:33:53.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you look at golf and how it changes and

0:33:53.920 --> 0:33:57.720
<v Speaker 1>how there's these different innovations and the last big one

0:33:57.760 --> 0:34:01.080
<v Speaker 1>was the minimalist movement that you know, Tom Doak and

0:34:01.120 --> 0:34:05.280
<v Speaker 1>Bill Kohrr and Ben Crenshaw started with building golf courses

0:34:05.320 --> 0:34:09.880
<v Speaker 1>that were much more lay of the ground. And with

0:34:09.960 --> 0:34:13.440
<v Speaker 1>the ground movement, and you start to think about, like,

0:34:13.920 --> 0:34:17.640
<v Speaker 1>what's going to be this next innovation with golf courses,

0:34:18.160 --> 0:34:21.640
<v Speaker 1>and you have to look no further than abundance of

0:34:21.920 --> 0:34:26.120
<v Speaker 1>golf courses that were built that really don't fit needs

0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:28.919
<v Speaker 1>or aren't any good. And you know, it also makes

0:34:28.960 --> 0:34:32.360
<v Speaker 1>me think about the residential golf courses that just aren't

0:34:32.440 --> 0:34:35.560
<v Speaker 1>very good golf courses. But we're built to make money,

0:34:35.960 --> 0:34:39.279
<v Speaker 1>you know, with residential developments and and that kind of

0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:42.680
<v Speaker 1>fits into this. And I think reimagining those golf courses

0:34:42.760 --> 0:34:46.040
<v Speaker 1>are is what the future of golf course development is.

0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:50.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I agree with all that. I think I think

0:34:50.400 --> 0:34:52.080
<v Speaker 2>it's going to be interesting because there's a lot of

0:34:52.320 --> 0:34:55.200
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of sticky parts of that, because there's

0:34:56.040 --> 0:34:59.200
<v Speaker 2>there's zoning regulations and open space and those types of things.

0:34:59.239 --> 0:35:02.839
<v Speaker 2>But I couldn't agree more. And I think I think

0:35:02.880 --> 0:35:05.920
<v Speaker 2>that the idea that we're going to look back on

0:35:06.800 --> 0:35:11.719
<v Speaker 2>courses like sand Hills and the development like Bandon dune'es I.

0:35:12.160 --> 0:35:14.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, we talk a lot about the dark ages

0:35:14.040 --> 0:35:17.000
<v Speaker 2>of golf, but I think those will be the facilities

0:35:17.000 --> 0:35:19.920
<v Speaker 2>that really, you know, we'll look back and saying that's

0:35:19.960 --> 0:35:24.040
<v Speaker 2>where the golf industry turned to another direction. I can't

0:35:24.040 --> 0:35:26.920
<v Speaker 2>help but think even some of these residential courses are

0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:29.399
<v Speaker 2>going to have to then change away from just being

0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:30.719
<v Speaker 2>a golf course, are going to have to be more

0:35:30.719 --> 0:35:33.319
<v Speaker 2>park open space, because I just don't think those are

0:35:33.360 --> 0:35:34.560
<v Speaker 2>those are the ones that aren't going to make it.

0:35:34.600 --> 0:35:36.480
<v Speaker 2>I think everyone's proven that when you get out into

0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:41.000
<v Speaker 2>open space, free of development and out in nature that's

0:35:41.040 --> 0:35:43.919
<v Speaker 2>when we really really that's when we know we really

0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:44.480
<v Speaker 2>love golf.

0:35:46.280 --> 0:35:49.120
<v Speaker 1>A house on a golf course is like an immediate

0:35:49.200 --> 0:35:54.120
<v Speaker 1>detractor for people. It's it's amazing, it is. I remember

0:35:54.160 --> 0:35:57.000
<v Speaker 1>I was talking about Philly Cricket Club with somebody and

0:35:57.440 --> 0:36:01.480
<v Speaker 1>somebody goes. Somebody was like, you know, there's those condos

0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:05.600
<v Speaker 1>on the thirteenth hole just ruin everything. And I'm thinking,

0:36:05.640 --> 0:36:08.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, wow, one hole like having condos by there.

0:36:08.680 --> 0:36:12.080
<v Speaker 1>But this guy, you know, he just was offended by

0:36:12.160 --> 0:36:14.840
<v Speaker 1>those condos, like and like, I think that's part of

0:36:14.880 --> 0:36:18.000
<v Speaker 1>the assence of golf as being out and they open

0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:21.640
<v Speaker 1>and getting to you know, disconnect from the world.

0:36:22.440 --> 0:36:26.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, I think that that whole idea of development

0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:31.600
<v Speaker 2>and the right balance for all of those those elements.

0:36:32.080 --> 0:36:35.120
<v Speaker 2>You know. The one thing that I believe happened over

0:36:35.160 --> 0:36:36.919
<v Speaker 2>a twenty or three year period is that the golf

0:36:36.960 --> 0:36:40.080
<v Speaker 2>course wasn't the number one driver. So you chose sites

0:36:40.120 --> 0:36:43.399
<v Speaker 2>that you didn't necessarily you wouldn't necessarily build a golf

0:36:43.440 --> 0:36:45.680
<v Speaker 2>course by itself. It wasn't a great piece of land,

0:36:45.719 --> 0:36:48.920
<v Speaker 2>and you ended up, you know, moving a lot of dirt,

0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:51.080
<v Speaker 2>and you raised the houses on the outside and dropped

0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:53.160
<v Speaker 2>the golf on the on the middle of the center.

0:36:54.200 --> 0:37:00.239
<v Speaker 2>It just got to be repetitive and boring tunnels exactly.

0:37:00.280 --> 0:37:04.360
<v Speaker 2>And it's still occurring there. There's properties that are happening.

0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:06.319
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's a big development here in Phoenix going

0:37:06.320 --> 0:37:08.319
<v Speaker 2>and I was just that yesterday that you know, they're

0:37:08.320 --> 0:37:10.120
<v Speaker 2>building houses all over the place and there's a golf

0:37:10.160 --> 0:37:11.920
<v Speaker 2>course in the middle of it. But but what I

0:37:11.960 --> 0:37:15.600
<v Speaker 2>found interesting about it is is the clubhouse was not

0:37:15.840 --> 0:37:17.920
<v Speaker 2>just a clubhouse. There was I walked in, the very

0:37:18.239 --> 0:37:23.279
<v Speaker 2>first thing I saw was a bike rental shop. It

0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:25.640
<v Speaker 2>was a clubhouse kind of built in a U and

0:37:25.680 --> 0:37:28.319
<v Speaker 2>so they saw bike rentals, and then see kayaks because

0:37:28.320 --> 0:37:29.799
<v Speaker 2>you could actually take it out on a big lake

0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:32.920
<v Speaker 2>that they were building. And and then there's there's a

0:37:32.960 --> 0:37:35.400
<v Speaker 2>whole open space that went off into the center of

0:37:35.440 --> 0:37:37.960
<v Speaker 2>the property. And the very first thing you see as

0:37:38.000 --> 0:37:39.959
<v Speaker 2>you walk in the back of the clubhouse was a

0:37:40.000 --> 0:37:45.000
<v Speaker 2>big open outdoor seating area and then the driving range.

0:37:45.320 --> 0:37:47.279
<v Speaker 2>So it was right in line with all the things

0:37:47.320 --> 0:37:49.600
<v Speaker 2>that I'm talking about that the driving range becomes more

0:37:49.640 --> 0:37:51.640
<v Speaker 2>of a social center and people are hanging out and

0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:53.279
<v Speaker 2>you just go over, hit some balls and come back

0:37:53.320 --> 0:37:57.960
<v Speaker 2>over here, you know, it was so So the residential

0:37:57.960 --> 0:37:59.959
<v Speaker 2>part of this is I don't think is necessarily gonna

0:38:00.440 --> 0:38:03.279
<v Speaker 2>go away entirely, but I think how we use some

0:38:03.640 --> 0:38:05.960
<v Speaker 2>of these central spaces is definitely evolving.

0:38:06.520 --> 0:38:09.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I heard a statistic that a golf course within

0:38:09.880 --> 0:38:12.400
<v Speaker 1>walking distance of your home is worth like ten thousand

0:38:12.400 --> 0:38:13.319
<v Speaker 1>dollars to your home.

0:38:15.640 --> 0:38:17.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't know about that. That wouldn't surprise me.

0:38:18.080 --> 0:38:22.359
<v Speaker 1>That's just something I heard with this research I've been

0:38:22.400 --> 0:38:25.359
<v Speaker 1>doing recently, which it's crazy, but you think about like

0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:28.440
<v Speaker 1>these big residential like why doesn't the clubhouse or have

0:38:28.560 --> 0:38:30.840
<v Speaker 1>like a coffee shop, you know, if I live like

0:38:30.960 --> 0:38:33.319
<v Speaker 1>down the street, like I'm going to go there rather

0:38:33.400 --> 0:38:35.520
<v Speaker 1>than I'm going to go like spend ten minutes in

0:38:35.560 --> 0:38:37.080
<v Speaker 1>my car going to get coffee.

0:38:38.160 --> 0:38:40.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's I think you're you're kind of touching on

0:38:40.480 --> 0:38:42.040
<v Speaker 2>some of the things that I that I've been in

0:38:42.080 --> 0:38:43.319
<v Speaker 2>the middle of. You know, it's one thing to be

0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:45.960
<v Speaker 2>talking about a message. It's another thing to actually implement it,

0:38:46.320 --> 0:38:49.360
<v Speaker 2>implement that message. And you know, so our golf business,

0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:52.880
<v Speaker 2>if you will, is really they've got the management companies

0:38:52.920 --> 0:38:55.920
<v Speaker 2>and the operators, they've got it pretty well oiled to

0:38:56.080 --> 0:38:59.440
<v Speaker 2>a golf business, so they know golf. What they're not

0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:01.759
<v Speaker 2>really good at is or not. I mean they can be,

0:39:01.840 --> 0:39:05.040
<v Speaker 2>they just haven't chosen to be good at doing other

0:39:05.120 --> 0:39:07.759
<v Speaker 2>things like coffee houses, bike rentals. They don't understand it.

0:39:08.239 --> 0:39:11.400
<v Speaker 2>So now, how do you position the economic there for

0:39:11.520 --> 0:39:14.960
<v Speaker 2>these guys that actually can come in and diversify the

0:39:15.040 --> 0:39:17.879
<v Speaker 2>user without having the risk of losing That's that's what's

0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:20.400
<v Speaker 2>really that's an interesting part of this. I talked to

0:39:20.400 --> 0:39:23.879
<v Speaker 2>a management company a lot about this and he says, well, Andy,

0:39:23.880 --> 0:39:26.000
<v Speaker 2>this all sounds great. I love the community links concept,

0:39:26.000 --> 0:39:27.799
<v Speaker 2>but right now, no one's hiring us to do that.

0:39:28.920 --> 0:39:29.960
<v Speaker 2>Well I'm going to change that.

0:39:31.120 --> 0:39:38.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So having working with a municipality versus a private club, like,

0:39:38.960 --> 0:39:41.080
<v Speaker 1>what are you what are the differences that you see?

0:39:43.320 --> 0:39:45.680
<v Speaker 2>Do you have enough time? You know? I couldn't you know?

0:39:45.840 --> 0:39:47.960
<v Speaker 2>There would Let me start with some of the similarities.

0:39:47.960 --> 0:39:52.400
<v Speaker 2>So the similarities are there's always a discussion about money,

0:39:52.440 --> 0:39:55.320
<v Speaker 2>there's always a discussion about budget, and there's always a

0:39:55.360 --> 0:40:01.520
<v Speaker 2>discussion about downtime and disturbance and so so there's certainly

0:40:01.520 --> 0:40:06.080
<v Speaker 2>some similarities that it crossed, you know, both types of projects.

0:40:06.080 --> 0:40:09.840
<v Speaker 2>Probably the biggest difference with the municipality. You know, the

0:40:09.920 --> 0:40:12.400
<v Speaker 2>kind of the community golf perspective is just all of

0:40:12.440 --> 0:40:15.719
<v Speaker 2>the other buy in that has to happen. It's it's

0:40:15.920 --> 0:40:19.520
<v Speaker 2>just takes longer to make decisions and more people have

0:40:19.560 --> 0:40:21.520
<v Speaker 2>to weigh in. And that's that's one of the things

0:40:21.520 --> 0:40:24.000
<v Speaker 2>that I think that I've done well at and I

0:40:24.080 --> 0:40:26.239
<v Speaker 2>kind of promote myself as I've got the patients that

0:40:26.360 --> 0:40:28.120
<v Speaker 2>kind of go through that I'm not going anywhere. So

0:40:28.719 --> 0:40:30.680
<v Speaker 2>this doesn't have to happen in six months. It can

0:40:30.760 --> 0:40:33.919
<v Speaker 2>happen in twelve months or I don't like to take

0:40:34.200 --> 0:40:39.160
<v Speaker 2>too long. But and so the stakeholder buy in the meetings,

0:40:39.200 --> 0:40:44.960
<v Speaker 2>to the town hall meetings negotiating certain aspects of the plan.

0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:48.680
<v Speaker 2>You know, this is where you start to see, you know,

0:40:49.040 --> 0:40:50.960
<v Speaker 2>if I kind of diverge a little bit to see

0:40:51.040 --> 0:40:53.239
<v Speaker 2>what a golfer really looks like. You know, when you're

0:40:53.239 --> 0:40:55.680
<v Speaker 2>in a town hall of one hundred and twenty one

0:40:55.760 --> 0:41:00.480
<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty people and you have half golfers, half nons,

0:41:00.880 --> 0:41:04.000
<v Speaker 2>you start to see how we as a group, as

0:41:04.000 --> 0:41:07.239
<v Speaker 2>a golfing group react, And I gotta be honest, you know,

0:41:07.480 --> 0:41:11.360
<v Speaker 2>the golfers are not very organized. They're not they They

0:41:11.520 --> 0:41:13.960
<v Speaker 2>they come in, they say this is our golf course,

0:41:14.480 --> 0:41:16.239
<v Speaker 2>and then if they're upset, they'll leave, a lot of

0:41:16.280 --> 0:41:18.760
<v Speaker 2>golfers will walk out. They'll say that I'm never coming back,

0:41:19.400 --> 0:41:23.560
<v Speaker 2>you know. Whereas the mountain biker Mountain Bike Association or

0:41:23.600 --> 0:41:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the equestrian, you know, they'll come up with a PowerPoint presentation,

0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:30.759
<v Speaker 2>they'll present everything to us very matter of factly. And

0:41:31.040 --> 0:41:33.160
<v Speaker 2>when you actually look back and you start to see

0:41:33.160 --> 0:41:36.480
<v Speaker 2>how how the process is going, you know, I find

0:41:36.480 --> 0:41:40.279
<v Speaker 2>myself defending golf just from a from a group standpoint,

0:41:40.400 --> 0:41:42.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, not necessarily just me individually or what I'm

0:41:42.640 --> 0:41:45.600
<v Speaker 2>trying to do. And so, you know, managing all those

0:41:45.640 --> 0:41:49.719
<v Speaker 2>different type of community uses is by far the the difference,

0:41:50.239 --> 0:41:52.479
<v Speaker 2>the big difference. But I will say from a club

0:41:52.560 --> 0:41:56.000
<v Speaker 2>from a private club membership is you still have opinions,

0:41:56.480 --> 0:41:59.600
<v Speaker 2>but generally it's really driven by, you know, by being

0:41:59.640 --> 0:42:00.720
<v Speaker 2>a member at that club.

0:42:02.000 --> 0:42:04.279
<v Speaker 1>That's I think like one of the things in my

0:42:04.560 --> 0:42:10.640
<v Speaker 1>experience with municipalities and and the dynamics of the municipal

0:42:10.680 --> 0:42:13.600
<v Speaker 1>golf course is like how much stock is put into

0:42:13.680 --> 0:42:18.040
<v Speaker 1>their the random group of players that show up for

0:42:18.120 --> 0:42:21.640
<v Speaker 1>whatever meeting, and what they say and and how they'll

0:42:21.719 --> 0:42:23.759
<v Speaker 1>you know, if you raise the race time out of

0:42:23.800 --> 0:42:25.960
<v Speaker 1>here is like, is that really the customer that you want?

0:42:26.000 --> 0:42:27.759
<v Speaker 1>If you if you I'm giving you a better golf

0:42:27.760 --> 0:42:30.600
<v Speaker 1>course and it's ten dollars more, you're out of here.

0:42:30.880 --> 0:42:34.359
<v Speaker 2>You know, It's that's real, that's real. And I've I've

0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:36.600
<v Speaker 2>been in those meetings where the golf you know, three

0:42:36.680 --> 0:42:38.480
<v Speaker 2>or four golfers will get in front of the council

0:42:39.200 --> 0:42:42.879
<v Speaker 2>and raise their voice and tell the council that there

0:42:42.880 --> 0:42:46.200
<v Speaker 2>will never come back, and it scares the council and

0:42:46.239 --> 0:42:48.399
<v Speaker 2>because this is their constituents, they don't they don't want

0:42:48.400 --> 0:42:50.839
<v Speaker 2>that negativity. So they end up saying, oh, well, we better,

0:42:51.640 --> 0:42:53.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, we better, you know, change our message or

0:42:53.800 --> 0:42:55.640
<v Speaker 2>the golfers are going to be upset. And you know

0:42:55.680 --> 0:42:58.279
<v Speaker 2>that's you know, I find my I'm the golfer, right,

0:42:58.440 --> 0:43:02.040
<v Speaker 2>that's I'm a golfer. But I also understand I'm looking

0:43:02.080 --> 0:43:03.400
<v Speaker 2>at it from a kind of a you know, I

0:43:03.400 --> 0:43:06.560
<v Speaker 2>think a bigger picture, and I you know, losing a

0:43:06.600 --> 0:43:09.120
<v Speaker 2>customer is a really difficult thing. And I think with

0:43:09.160 --> 0:43:12.560
<v Speaker 2>all this discussion about technology in the game and the

0:43:12.600 --> 0:43:14.839
<v Speaker 2>distances and all this evolution of the game, I think

0:43:14.880 --> 0:43:17.239
<v Speaker 2>one of the biggest things we're going to have a

0:43:17.320 --> 0:43:20.000
<v Speaker 2>question about is what defines a golfer, what is a

0:43:20.040 --> 0:43:24.600
<v Speaker 2>traditional golfer, and and the challenges of this evolution. You

0:43:24.600 --> 0:43:26.960
<v Speaker 2>know you mentioned about bringing your dog out to the course.

0:43:27.080 --> 0:43:30.000
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't agree more. But I've also seen it where

0:43:30.200 --> 0:43:32.640
<v Speaker 2>golfers don't like it when two dogs are barking next

0:43:32.680 --> 0:43:35.719
<v Speaker 2>to each other and in their backswing rights. That's the

0:43:35.800 --> 0:43:38.560
<v Speaker 2>traditional golfer that doesn't want those dogs there. You know,

0:43:38.560 --> 0:43:41.680
<v Speaker 2>we as a as an industry are our own worst enemy. Sometimes.

0:43:42.120 --> 0:43:45.920
<v Speaker 1>You got your MBA from in Berkeley in twenty twelve.

0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:50.600
<v Speaker 1>I'm curious. I don't think that's a degree that many

0:43:51.160 --> 0:43:54.799
<v Speaker 1>architects have. And how has it helped you from your

0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:55.560
<v Speaker 1>business side?

0:43:57.080 --> 0:43:59.840
<v Speaker 2>So quick clarification, it's not a full MBA. It was

0:44:00.360 --> 0:44:04.239
<v Speaker 2>it was an executive education. Uh, pretty intense study. But

0:44:05.000 --> 0:44:06.600
<v Speaker 2>I can't say that I have an MBA, but thank

0:44:06.640 --> 0:44:07.399
<v Speaker 2>you for giving me the.

0:44:08.280 --> 0:44:11.520
<v Speaker 1>All that I'll go with it.

0:44:12.840 --> 0:44:16.120
<v Speaker 2>I will say this that that the two things that

0:44:16.120 --> 0:44:19.719
<v Speaker 2>that I wish I would have learned quicker were that

0:44:20.160 --> 0:44:21.759
<v Speaker 2>it's not about what you know, it's who you know.

0:44:21.800 --> 0:44:27.279
<v Speaker 2>It's a relationship business. And then two would be understanding

0:44:27.320 --> 0:44:31.319
<v Speaker 2>business from how to allocate dollars and how you know,

0:44:31.320 --> 0:44:33.080
<v Speaker 2>we talkt we talk a lot about a design fee

0:44:33.080 --> 0:44:35.640
<v Speaker 2>and how much people charge for a design. You know,

0:44:35.719 --> 0:44:38.040
<v Speaker 2>for a young guy like me, my design you know,

0:44:38.120 --> 0:44:41.440
<v Speaker 2>generally my design fee has to last almost two years

0:44:41.480 --> 0:44:45.000
<v Speaker 2>because I've got twelve months of design and then there's

0:44:45.000 --> 0:44:47.359
<v Speaker 2>going to be a permitting window and then we might

0:44:47.400 --> 0:44:50.680
<v Speaker 2>get the whole construction done in six months or twelve months.

0:44:50.680 --> 0:44:54.759
<v Speaker 2>And so you know the economic behind you know, how

0:44:54.920 --> 0:44:58.719
<v Speaker 2>the dollars and cents of operating a design business. You know,

0:44:58.760 --> 0:45:03.799
<v Speaker 2>we we drop pictures. We're creative people and typically don't

0:45:03.960 --> 0:45:06.080
<v Speaker 2>We're not really good at sales, and we're certainly not

0:45:06.120 --> 0:45:11.840
<v Speaker 2>good at business by nature. So it's really showed me

0:45:11.880 --> 0:45:13.600
<v Speaker 2>what I don't know more than it's kind of given

0:45:13.640 --> 0:45:16.400
<v Speaker 2>me what I do know. So I keep trying to

0:45:16.400 --> 0:45:19.360
<v Speaker 2>be better at that. Business is hard.

0:45:19.800 --> 0:45:23.520
<v Speaker 1>Let's transition into one of your more recent projects. You

0:45:23.880 --> 0:45:30.520
<v Speaker 1>did a restoration renovation of Meadowbrook Golf Club up in Detroit,

0:45:30.560 --> 0:45:34.399
<v Speaker 1>Michigan area. A Willie Park design it, and I think

0:45:34.719 --> 0:45:37.720
<v Speaker 1>you know I've been I've gotten countless emails from people

0:45:37.760 --> 0:45:40.480
<v Speaker 1>saying that it's a spot that I must check out.

0:45:40.560 --> 0:45:42.919
<v Speaker 1>So tell us a little bit about meadow Brook and

0:45:43.200 --> 0:45:44.400
<v Speaker 1>how that job came about.

0:45:45.560 --> 0:45:49.320
<v Speaker 2>Sure, your meadow Brook Country Club, Northville, Michigan, about twenty

0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:53.399
<v Speaker 2>five miles or so outside of well, about three miles

0:45:53.440 --> 0:45:58.480
<v Speaker 2>outside Detroit, and it was the private club. Family family dominated.

0:45:58.560 --> 0:46:05.240
<v Speaker 2>It's got swim tennis, active social program, and they chose

0:46:05.280 --> 0:46:09.440
<v Speaker 2>to undergo some master planning. I think it was in

0:46:09.480 --> 0:46:13.040
<v Speaker 2>twenty thirteen or twenty fourteen when I first It was

0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:16.440
<v Speaker 2>early fourteen when I first met him, and they interviewed

0:46:16.440 --> 0:46:20.000
<v Speaker 2>fifteen guys. I happened to get on the list, and

0:46:20.239 --> 0:46:22.680
<v Speaker 2>we went through a process of elimination. You know. That's

0:46:22.840 --> 0:46:24.719
<v Speaker 2>that's the other thing about our business today is it's

0:46:24.760 --> 0:46:27.040
<v Speaker 2>like it seems like you're either dealing with one or

0:46:27.080 --> 0:46:29.640
<v Speaker 2>two guys or you're dealing with twenty guys. So this

0:46:29.800 --> 0:46:33.000
<v Speaker 2>was one of the ones that you end up end

0:46:33.120 --> 0:46:36.120
<v Speaker 2>up just kind of having patience and providing as much

0:46:36.120 --> 0:46:39.640
<v Speaker 2>information as you as you can. And I made a

0:46:39.680 --> 0:46:41.560
<v Speaker 2>few visits where I actually started to get to know

0:46:41.600 --> 0:46:43.560
<v Speaker 2>some of the people. The general manager, Joe Morine and

0:46:43.600 --> 0:46:46.800
<v Speaker 2>I kind of kicked it off right from the beginning.

0:46:46.800 --> 0:46:50.200
<v Speaker 2>We just kind of got along right away, and it

0:46:50.280 --> 0:46:52.720
<v Speaker 2>narrowed down to five and we did a big interview

0:46:52.760 --> 0:46:55.600
<v Speaker 2>and I laid out some ideas and you know, I

0:46:55.680 --> 0:46:58.080
<v Speaker 2>focused a lot of about how I can sell a

0:46:58.120 --> 0:47:01.200
<v Speaker 2>plan and be in front of them membership and all

0:47:01.239 --> 0:47:03.400
<v Speaker 2>my focus group, you know, kind of concept. I have

0:47:03.440 --> 0:47:05.440
<v Speaker 2>a big portion of my master plan where I get

0:47:05.520 --> 0:47:08.000
<v Speaker 2>in front of the members and get to know them

0:47:09.080 --> 0:47:12.200
<v Speaker 2>and it it it escalated into a contract and it

0:47:12.239 --> 0:47:14.640
<v Speaker 2>was my first project in Michigan, and and it was

0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:19.840
<v Speaker 2>quite quite a coup for someone from Arizona coming to Michigan.

0:47:20.000 --> 0:47:22.200
<v Speaker 2>You know, the state of Michigan's pretty pretty specific about

0:47:22.200 --> 0:47:23.800
<v Speaker 2>who they worked with up there. They love their state.

0:47:24.000 --> 0:47:26.239
<v Speaker 2>And so I'm originally from Wisconsin, so I guess I

0:47:26.239 --> 0:47:28.440
<v Speaker 2>could I could play off that I was a Midwesterner

0:47:28.480 --> 0:47:31.080
<v Speaker 2>at by heart, but it could have been better. I

0:47:31.120 --> 0:47:34.040
<v Speaker 2>can't imagine finding another club that I've gotten along with

0:47:34.080 --> 0:47:36.960
<v Speaker 2>better and had a better working relationship, and probably more importantly,

0:47:37.480 --> 0:47:41.319
<v Speaker 2>a club that really trusted me and let me, you know,

0:47:41.440 --> 0:47:43.600
<v Speaker 2>kind of go through the process and then design a

0:47:43.640 --> 0:47:46.200
<v Speaker 2>course that that I think reflected what we tried, you know,

0:47:46.239 --> 0:47:48.440
<v Speaker 2>what the club needed and what we wanted to do.

0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:52.759
<v Speaker 2>It was a Willie Park Junior original design, but it

0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:55.880
<v Speaker 2>was only six holes. Willie Park couldn't couldn't finish the

0:47:56.200 --> 0:48:00.400
<v Speaker 2>rest of the course because of financial issues, so Collis

0:48:00.400 --> 0:48:04.359
<v Speaker 2>and Deray ended up expanding it from Chicago. There they

0:48:04.440 --> 0:48:05.760
<v Speaker 2>expanded it to eighteen holes.

0:48:05.920 --> 0:48:10.560
<v Speaker 1>Those guys did a course up in Chicago called, I

0:48:10.560 --> 0:48:12.320
<v Speaker 1>think Gone Flora Country Club.

0:48:13.040 --> 0:48:16.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, no, you know the Olympia Fields. They have

0:48:16.880 --> 0:48:19.320
<v Speaker 2>some connection there, and then Phloso Moore have some connection

0:48:19.400 --> 0:48:22.239
<v Speaker 2>between the two and they brought they actually brought I

0:48:22.280 --> 0:48:26.040
<v Speaker 2>believe they brought Park over to do Olympia Fields eventually

0:48:26.120 --> 0:48:28.520
<v Speaker 2>the North of course. Yeah, the North course. Right.

0:48:28.960 --> 0:48:32.719
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting. So when you get this kind of a project,

0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:37.800
<v Speaker 1>what kind of research goes into the architects and the history?

0:48:39.320 --> 0:48:42.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well a lot. And I think one of the

0:48:42.360 --> 0:48:45.440
<v Speaker 2>things that I just have an appreciation for, whether or

0:48:45.440 --> 0:48:47.920
<v Speaker 2>not it's one hundred years old or if it's fifteen

0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:50.919
<v Speaker 2>or twenty years old, is let's find some history about

0:48:50.920 --> 0:48:53.800
<v Speaker 2>why it is what it is, because you there's always reasons.

0:48:53.840 --> 0:48:57.000
<v Speaker 2>There's always a permitting issue, there's always a budget issue,

0:48:57.080 --> 0:49:00.719
<v Speaker 2>or there's something that goes into the process of why

0:49:00.760 --> 0:49:03.000
<v Speaker 2>that golf course looks the way it does, and so

0:49:03.800 --> 0:49:06.239
<v Speaker 2>one of the big things about Meadowbrook is you could

0:49:06.320 --> 0:49:09.320
<v Speaker 2>tell that it had been expanded upon over a number

0:49:09.320 --> 0:49:12.040
<v Speaker 2>of years and then they ultimately in the seventies did

0:49:12.080 --> 0:49:15.680
<v Speaker 2>an Art Hills master plan with a couple hole renovation

0:49:15.800 --> 0:49:18.439
<v Speaker 2>and Jerry Matthews was another one that had some work

0:49:18.480 --> 0:49:22.520
<v Speaker 2>on bunkers and a tree planting plan, so they they

0:49:22.520 --> 0:49:27.600
<v Speaker 2>did a fair bit of planting through the eighties. So yeah,

0:49:27.840 --> 0:49:31.000
<v Speaker 2>there was so yeah, there's a huge amount of history.

0:49:31.040 --> 0:49:32.319
<v Speaker 2>But one of the things that I clued in on

0:49:32.440 --> 0:49:36.360
<v Speaker 2>is obviously wondering what it was that Willie Park Jr.

0:49:36.760 --> 0:49:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Really wanted it in his eighteen hole design, because there's

0:49:38.960 --> 0:49:41.920
<v Speaker 2>an indication that he did eighteen hole design, but we

0:49:41.960 --> 0:49:44.600
<v Speaker 2>didn't have any drawings for it, and so I dove

0:49:44.680 --> 0:49:46.479
<v Speaker 2>deep into that. So I looked at his green design.

0:49:46.560 --> 0:49:51.480
<v Speaker 2>I tried to do as much local history. So yeah,

0:49:51.840 --> 0:49:54.640
<v Speaker 2>there's a tremendous amount of research that goes into it.

0:49:55.160 --> 0:49:58.640
<v Speaker 1>So Willie Park Jr. Is I think in America a

0:49:58.680 --> 0:50:02.000
<v Speaker 1>little bit underappreciated, but he I mean, he has some

0:50:02.080 --> 0:50:04.840
<v Speaker 1>of the some of the best designs in the United

0:50:05.080 --> 0:50:09.400
<v Speaker 1>UK and and obviously he did, you know, he's Maidstone

0:50:09.440 --> 0:50:12.359
<v Speaker 1>and Olympia Fields North were two of his designs. Here,

0:50:12.760 --> 0:50:15.600
<v Speaker 1>what are some of the traits of a Willie Park

0:50:15.640 --> 0:50:17.400
<v Speaker 1>course that might get overlooked?

0:50:18.640 --> 0:50:22.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Battle Creek outside of Detroit. There is another good,

0:50:22.719 --> 0:50:25.839
<v Speaker 2>really good Willie Park. I actually I think that's one

0:50:25.880 --> 0:50:29.360
<v Speaker 2>of the better ones. But so to me it feels

0:50:29.400 --> 0:50:33.840
<v Speaker 2>like he's very driven on locating his greens. And you know,

0:50:33.880 --> 0:50:35.920
<v Speaker 2>so one of the parts of the of the research

0:50:36.000 --> 0:50:38.480
<v Speaker 2>is we went over to England and we did as

0:50:38.560 --> 0:50:41.400
<v Speaker 2>much as we could to see the work in the US.

0:50:41.840 --> 0:50:45.320
<v Speaker 2>But this place called Huntercombe and a place called Sunningdale

0:50:45.320 --> 0:50:48.000
<v Speaker 2>Old were two places that we knew or I knew

0:50:48.000 --> 0:50:50.840
<v Speaker 2>that I wanted to get to get a hold of

0:50:50.920 --> 0:50:53.480
<v Speaker 2>and actually see. And so we.

0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:54.400
<v Speaker 1>Got a little history.

0:50:55.040 --> 0:50:58.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just a little bit. It's hard, well it's hard

0:50:58.080 --> 0:51:00.279
<v Speaker 2>for me to figure out exactly how much is still

0:51:00.360 --> 0:51:04.960
<v Speaker 2>Park versus Colt. But nonetheless we knew that Huntercombe was

0:51:05.000 --> 0:51:09.400
<v Speaker 2>his and relatively untouched. And so when you compare what

0:51:09.480 --> 0:51:12.520
<v Speaker 2>he did in the US and then you look at

0:51:12.560 --> 0:51:16.279
<v Speaker 2>what we all think is really pretty good indication of

0:51:16.719 --> 0:51:19.200
<v Speaker 2>what he liked about golf or what he thought he liked,

0:51:19.719 --> 0:51:23.320
<v Speaker 2>it was a little bit of his experimentation course at Huntercombe.

0:51:24.200 --> 0:51:26.560
<v Speaker 2>You didn't quite you didn't quite relate. So it was

0:51:26.640 --> 0:51:29.319
<v Speaker 2>obvious that the courses that he were building here, he

0:51:29.400 --> 0:51:31.120
<v Speaker 2>was doing a lot of work. He came back in

0:51:31.239 --> 0:51:35.239
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifteen, back from from the UK, landed i think

0:51:35.239 --> 0:51:39.720
<v Speaker 2>on tax day in April April fifteenth of nineteen fifteen,

0:51:40.360 --> 0:51:42.000
<v Speaker 2>and you see all the courses he was doing at

0:51:42.000 --> 0:51:45.320
<v Speaker 2>one time. So you know, the whole Donald Ross discussion,

0:51:45.320 --> 0:51:47.920
<v Speaker 2>how many times can he get to a course? And

0:51:48.000 --> 0:51:52.560
<v Speaker 2>so the Huntercombe project really resonated with us, you know,

0:51:52.680 --> 0:51:56.640
<v Speaker 2>so a lot more interesting green contours, a lot more diversity.

0:51:57.239 --> 0:51:59.239
<v Speaker 2>You know, I think Willie Parks tends to do a

0:51:59.320 --> 0:52:01.239
<v Speaker 2>lot of the same kind of greens. Hey that's a

0:52:01.239 --> 0:52:05.760
<v Speaker 2>little you know obviously nuances, but you know, back to front,

0:52:06.480 --> 0:52:10.640
<v Speaker 2>a big deep swale behind. So he was always very

0:52:10.640 --> 0:52:14.480
<v Speaker 2>specific about locating his greens and and uh and then

0:52:14.520 --> 0:52:17.080
<v Speaker 2>a Huntercombe you know, he he did a fair bit

0:52:17.120 --> 0:52:22.359
<v Speaker 2>of drainage ditches and grass bunkers that weren't always didn't

0:52:22.360 --> 0:52:24.400
<v Speaker 2>have sand in them. Originally what they call over there

0:52:24.440 --> 0:52:28.040
<v Speaker 2>Willy park potts, you know, park pop bunkers. And so

0:52:28.160 --> 0:52:30.439
<v Speaker 2>I think we for us, we realized that it wasn't

0:52:30.440 --> 0:52:33.400
<v Speaker 2>all eighteen hole, an entire eighteen hole Willy Park Junior

0:52:33.400 --> 0:52:35.600
<v Speaker 2>at Meadowbrook, and that gave us some latitude to bring

0:52:35.680 --> 0:52:39.719
<v Speaker 2>some of this flavor from from from England. And then

0:52:39.760 --> 0:52:42.000
<v Speaker 2>I had a committee that that a couple of them

0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:45.480
<v Speaker 2>went with me to to England to see the work.

0:52:46.160 --> 0:52:48.239
<v Speaker 2>And we came back to the US and said, man,

0:52:48.280 --> 0:52:49.759
<v Speaker 2>if we could bring some of that over here, it'd

0:52:49.800 --> 0:52:52.160
<v Speaker 2>be cool. And I said, let's do it. And so

0:52:52.280 --> 0:52:54.479
<v Speaker 2>we started to kind of you know, so I would

0:52:54.480 --> 0:52:57.600
<v Speaker 2>say it's a sympathetic Uh, I don't know if i'd

0:52:57.640 --> 0:53:01.960
<v Speaker 2>use the word restoration, but it's sympathetic to parks work

0:53:02.000 --> 0:53:04.279
<v Speaker 2>that we saw. But you know, it was as much

0:53:04.320 --> 0:53:06.600
<v Speaker 2>of our own interpretation as it was anything that we

0:53:06.640 --> 0:53:07.840
<v Speaker 2>had any documentation on.

0:53:08.160 --> 0:53:12.400
<v Speaker 1>M It's how important is it to get you know,

0:53:12.440 --> 0:53:15.920
<v Speaker 1>your committee out to see stuff when you're when you're

0:53:16.000 --> 0:53:18.480
<v Speaker 1>undertaking a project.

0:53:18.080 --> 0:53:22.800
<v Speaker 2>Like this, I would tell you it's important and incredibly important.

0:53:22.880 --> 0:53:25.040
<v Speaker 2>It's one of the things that continues to be very

0:53:25.040 --> 0:53:27.560
<v Speaker 2>difficult because getting everybody in the same place to go

0:53:27.640 --> 0:53:31.840
<v Speaker 2>travel across the country is is is time intensive, resource intensive.

0:53:32.800 --> 0:53:35.759
<v Speaker 2>It's great when you have work locally, so the area

0:53:35.800 --> 0:53:37.640
<v Speaker 2>around Detroit has a lot of the stuff that we

0:53:37.640 --> 0:53:39.560
<v Speaker 2>would have wanted to see. But you know, we went

0:53:39.560 --> 0:53:43.000
<v Speaker 2>to Pittsburgh, went to the to Long Island, and so

0:53:44.719 --> 0:53:46.839
<v Speaker 2>one of our members is very familiar with the North

0:53:46.840 --> 0:53:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Course at Olympia Fields, and so, you know, it's incredible.

0:53:50.800 --> 0:53:53.520
<v Speaker 2>It's very important. If nothing else, it's a team building exercise.

0:53:53.560 --> 0:53:55.600
<v Speaker 2>You actually get a chance to go stand on a green.

0:53:56.160 --> 0:53:58.120
<v Speaker 2>I remember we went and played Garden City Golf Club.

0:53:58.120 --> 0:54:00.440
<v Speaker 2>We stood in that you know those greens. Okay, what

0:54:00.440 --> 0:54:02.239
<v Speaker 2>do we like? What we don't like? And that that's

0:54:02.239 --> 0:54:04.680
<v Speaker 2>a really cool part of the job I believe is

0:54:04.719 --> 0:54:07.719
<v Speaker 2>that you know, you get to sense what people are

0:54:07.719 --> 0:54:11.720
<v Speaker 2>comfortable with. And I'll tell you that my committee was

0:54:11.719 --> 0:54:14.239
<v Speaker 2>was really comfortable with doing something cool.

0:54:16.080 --> 0:54:19.759
<v Speaker 1>So architecture. I always feel like people have kind of

0:54:19.800 --> 0:54:23.960
<v Speaker 1>awakening moments at different different times. Is are there a

0:54:24.000 --> 0:54:27.360
<v Speaker 1>handful of courses or you know one particular golf course

0:54:27.400 --> 0:54:30.080
<v Speaker 1>that you feel has inspired your career.

0:54:32.440 --> 0:54:36.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm thinking of a couple of backups, but the

0:54:36.160 --> 0:54:39.360
<v Speaker 2>number one, without any question is the old course at St. Andrews.

0:54:39.760 --> 0:54:42.440
<v Speaker 2>And it's one of the things that I was in

0:54:42.480 --> 0:54:44.480
<v Speaker 2>the business for a while before I actually got over

0:54:44.480 --> 0:54:46.040
<v Speaker 2>there to see it. So as soon as I saw it,

0:54:46.080 --> 0:54:49.000
<v Speaker 2>that was you know, that was my if you want

0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:50.880
<v Speaker 2>to call it an awakening, and it was. It was

0:54:50.920 --> 0:54:53.640
<v Speaker 2>certainly that same question that we all asked, like, how

0:54:53.680 --> 0:54:56.319
<v Speaker 2>in the world did we get so far away from

0:54:56.360 --> 0:54:59.759
<v Speaker 2>this in the US. And so I got to come

0:54:59.800 --> 0:55:02.319
<v Speaker 2>back the old course all the time. And then and

0:55:02.320 --> 0:55:05.240
<v Speaker 2>then number two is you know, just understanding the impact

0:55:05.280 --> 0:55:08.359
<v Speaker 2>that it's had on our businesses, the Sandhills Golf Club.

0:55:08.400 --> 0:55:11.279
<v Speaker 2>I mean that that that one really started to show

0:55:11.320 --> 0:55:14.440
<v Speaker 2>you that that that some of this this kind of

0:55:14.560 --> 0:55:17.759
<v Speaker 2>ethic that you brought from that you had from from

0:55:17.840 --> 0:55:20.239
<v Speaker 2>the old country of Scotland, that was actually coming over

0:55:20.280 --> 0:55:22.360
<v Speaker 2>here and in such a beautiful place to do it

0:55:22.400 --> 0:55:24.080
<v Speaker 2>in the sand dunes without an ocean, but you got

0:55:24.080 --> 0:55:26.719
<v Speaker 2>this ocean of dunes. And so I would say those

0:55:26.760 --> 0:55:29.400
<v Speaker 2>are probably two of the ones that come right to mind.

0:55:29.960 --> 0:55:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm, yeah.

0:55:31.040 --> 0:55:34.520
<v Speaker 1>They I gotta get over to the old course. That's

0:55:34.680 --> 0:55:36.879
<v Speaker 1>high on the high on the list of things to do.

0:55:37.360 --> 0:55:40.000
<v Speaker 2>But sand the best part of the old course is

0:55:40.080 --> 0:55:43.000
<v Speaker 2>walking it on Sunday. I mean, well, one of the

0:55:43.040 --> 0:55:45.319
<v Speaker 2>good one of the best parts of the old course

0:55:45.400 --> 0:55:48.520
<v Speaker 2>is getting out there on Sunday and walking around and

0:55:48.560 --> 0:55:52.719
<v Speaker 2>seeing the greens and watching people walk their dogs and

0:55:52.719 --> 0:55:56.360
<v Speaker 2>and all that stuff that that's just that's just so cool.

0:55:56.719 --> 0:55:58.840
<v Speaker 1>When you when you go out to say a site

0:55:58.880 --> 0:56:03.080
<v Speaker 1>visit for a potential project, what's your prep look like?

0:56:03.120 --> 0:56:04.960
<v Speaker 1>Do you do a lot of prep before do you

0:56:05.040 --> 0:56:07.160
<v Speaker 1>go walk it blind without knowing it?

0:56:07.239 --> 0:56:07.319
<v Speaker 2>Like?

0:56:07.400 --> 0:56:08.200
<v Speaker 1>How does that work?

0:56:10.000 --> 0:56:12.760
<v Speaker 2>So one of the things that that I always it's

0:56:12.840 --> 0:56:14.759
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of interesting because I've had this happen to

0:56:14.800 --> 0:56:17.000
<v Speaker 2>be a number of times where I go out and

0:56:17.200 --> 0:56:18.960
<v Speaker 2>I visit a committee with a committee and we go

0:56:18.960 --> 0:56:23.800
<v Speaker 2>out and walk the golf course, and everybody is looking

0:56:23.840 --> 0:56:26.120
<v Speaker 2>for me to just start talking, you know, well, I'm

0:56:26.120 --> 0:56:28.319
<v Speaker 2>looking at this and look at that, when in fact,

0:56:28.360 --> 0:56:30.160
<v Speaker 2>all I'm doing is just I'm taking it in. And

0:56:30.200 --> 0:56:33.680
<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of my feelings of design and

0:56:34.160 --> 0:56:36.880
<v Speaker 2>my philosophy on design is what does it feel like

0:56:37.239 --> 0:56:40.799
<v Speaker 2>I'm visualizing hitting shots, I'm looking at the forms and

0:56:40.880 --> 0:56:43.600
<v Speaker 2>features are cool, but I'm just taking it in. And

0:56:43.640 --> 0:56:47.239
<v Speaker 2>so one of the difficult parts that I've always I've

0:56:47.239 --> 0:56:50.200
<v Speaker 2>always felt one of the difficult parts of what what

0:56:50.239 --> 0:56:52.239
<v Speaker 2>we do is is not only looking at it for

0:56:52.280 --> 0:56:53.960
<v Speaker 2>the first time and seeing it through our eyes, but

0:56:54.040 --> 0:56:57.640
<v Speaker 2>then knowing how a membership plays it and understanding the

0:56:57.640 --> 0:57:01.360
<v Speaker 2>differences between the better player versus the the average player.

0:57:01.640 --> 0:57:04.800
<v Speaker 2>And and so I've been commented that people who just

0:57:04.800 --> 0:57:06.319
<v Speaker 2>stop me and say, Okay, Anny, what what are you

0:57:06.360 --> 0:57:08.879
<v Speaker 2>saying now? What are you what are you seeing now?

0:57:08.920 --> 0:57:11.520
<v Speaker 2>You're not saying anything like what I now. I've gotten

0:57:11.520 --> 0:57:12.919
<v Speaker 2>to the point where I just warned them. I said, guys,

0:57:12.920 --> 0:57:14.680
<v Speaker 2>don't think that I'm gonna talk too much. I'm out here.

0:57:14.719 --> 0:57:18.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm taking it all in. But overall, it's It's one

0:57:18.480 --> 0:57:22.520
<v Speaker 2>of the things that I like about the focus group

0:57:22.720 --> 0:57:25.680
<v Speaker 2>portion of my of my process is that I get

0:57:25.720 --> 0:57:27.640
<v Speaker 2>to know how these guys are actually playing it and

0:57:27.680 --> 0:57:30.840
<v Speaker 2>not how I would play it. And so, you know,

0:57:30.880 --> 0:57:34.480
<v Speaker 2>to me, that's there's a lot of time just understanding

0:57:34.600 --> 0:57:37.200
<v Speaker 2>what they how they play it, what they like about it,

0:57:37.240 --> 0:57:39.480
<v Speaker 2>what they don't like about it, and then start to

0:57:39.520 --> 0:57:42.040
<v Speaker 2>overlay my own feelings on top of it under through

0:57:42.400 --> 0:57:45.720
<v Speaker 2>that lens. So that's that to me is so there's

0:57:45.720 --> 0:57:47.720
<v Speaker 2>a lot of time, and when it comes down to

0:57:47.720 --> 0:57:50.880
<v Speaker 2>the actual ideas, I always talk. I'm an eighty twenty guy.

0:57:51.040 --> 0:57:53.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what that with eighty percent twenty percent,

0:57:53.360 --> 0:57:56.400
<v Speaker 2>I get eighty percent right or eighty percent finished, and

0:57:56.440 --> 0:58:00.360
<v Speaker 2>then twenty percent you can leave open kind of and ended.

0:58:00.360 --> 0:58:02.760
<v Speaker 2>And that's kind of where my planning always goes, is

0:58:02.760 --> 0:58:05.400
<v Speaker 2>a you know, let's get into eighty percent, but twenty

0:58:05.400 --> 0:58:07.600
<v Speaker 2>percent we can start to refine in the field. And

0:58:07.720 --> 0:58:09.800
<v Speaker 2>sometimes it's one hundred percent. Sometimes you start all over,

0:58:09.840 --> 0:58:12.600
<v Speaker 2>of course, but but I always leave a little bit

0:58:12.720 --> 0:58:15.760
<v Speaker 2>of my interpretation to kind of evolve when we finally

0:58:15.760 --> 0:58:16.480
<v Speaker 2>get the construction.

0:58:17.240 --> 0:58:21.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, with obviously, with restoration is a big topic with

0:58:21.920 --> 0:58:25.160
<v Speaker 1>the you know, do you put it all back into

0:58:25.200 --> 0:58:29.960
<v Speaker 1>place exactly how it was at the best time they

0:58:30.440 --> 0:58:33.840
<v Speaker 1>determined for the golf course, or do you you know,

0:58:34.000 --> 0:58:37.000
<v Speaker 1>modernize it a little bit and move bunkers into where

0:58:37.040 --> 0:58:41.800
<v Speaker 1>they would have been given technology and distance lengthening. Where

0:58:42.320 --> 0:58:44.240
<v Speaker 1>do you have a stance on that or is every

0:58:44.280 --> 0:58:45.600
<v Speaker 1>situation kind of different?

0:58:46.360 --> 0:58:49.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, the easy answer is every situation is different.

0:58:49.040 --> 0:58:52.480
<v Speaker 2>But I I would I would contend that that if

0:58:52.480 --> 0:58:54.960
<v Speaker 2>you're going to call something a restoration, you better be

0:58:55.080 --> 0:58:58.800
<v Speaker 2>darn sure that it's restored to what was actually built

0:58:59.000 --> 0:59:01.920
<v Speaker 2>in what it actuallytually was. And so to me, the

0:59:02.240 --> 0:59:05.720
<v Speaker 2>word restoration. I kind of laugh on it because you know,

0:59:05.760 --> 0:59:08.280
<v Speaker 2>it's one of those words that everyone loves and everyone

0:59:08.360 --> 0:59:12.240
<v Speaker 2>gets it, but then it becomes so overused, like just

0:59:12.320 --> 0:59:15.520
<v Speaker 2>the idea that someone's restoring something sort of gives it

0:59:15.600 --> 0:59:18.440
<v Speaker 2>this connotation that that it must be exclusive, must be

0:59:18.480 --> 0:59:23.080
<v Speaker 2>really good. And so so I I'm one that that

0:59:23.080 --> 0:59:27.400
<v Speaker 2>that tries to, you know, to understand the logistics of

0:59:27.560 --> 0:59:30.440
<v Speaker 2>restoration and understand if that's even possible, and even if

0:59:30.480 --> 0:59:32.880
<v Speaker 2>it's if it's something they want to do. I'm working

0:59:32.880 --> 0:59:35.680
<v Speaker 2>with a club in California right now. We've had this

0:59:35.760 --> 0:59:39.480
<v Speaker 2>exact conversation. We've got a really good aerial that shows

0:59:39.520 --> 0:59:42.440
<v Speaker 2>some some the golf course in a state that that

0:59:42.520 --> 0:59:44.680
<v Speaker 2>a couple of really famous architects have worked on it.

0:59:44.720 --> 0:59:46.280
<v Speaker 2>And we said, hey, do we want to restore to

0:59:46.320 --> 0:59:49.720
<v Speaker 2>this and and some of it's not possible, and and

0:59:49.760 --> 0:59:52.000
<v Speaker 2>then you know, then we have those bunkers that are

0:59:52.000 --> 0:59:53.720
<v Speaker 2>one hundred and eighty yards off the tee right in

0:59:53.760 --> 0:59:57.200
<v Speaker 2>the right in the landing area of Missus Jones and

0:59:57.200 --> 1:00:00.280
<v Speaker 2>and and those types of things. So what what I've

1:00:00.320 --> 1:00:02.320
<v Speaker 2>tried to do is I always try to go back

1:00:02.360 --> 1:00:07.160
<v Speaker 2>in and restore the location of that bunker and give

1:00:07.200 --> 1:00:09.800
<v Speaker 2>it the feeling that there was a bunker there. But

1:00:09.880 --> 1:00:12.840
<v Speaker 2>I'll maybe soften it, make it rough, but make it

1:00:12.920 --> 1:00:15.280
<v Speaker 2>part of the composition of the golf hole. Not necessarily

1:00:15.280 --> 1:00:19.280
<v Speaker 2>put bunkers back, but then use mowing lines and try

1:00:19.280 --> 1:00:23.200
<v Speaker 2>to do something in turf to actually accentuate that what

1:00:23.240 --> 1:00:26.840
<v Speaker 2>that course was like. And not necessarily if that is,

1:00:26.880 --> 1:00:29.080
<v Speaker 2>if we're not going down the restoration tack. But I

1:00:29.160 --> 1:00:32.439
<v Speaker 2>always like to pay homage to those old features, even

1:00:32.440 --> 1:00:35.000
<v Speaker 2>if it's a little bump offen the rough that only

1:00:35.400 --> 1:00:37.720
<v Speaker 2>me and the superintendent know about. At least we know

1:00:37.800 --> 1:00:38.560
<v Speaker 2>that that's where it was.

1:00:40.400 --> 1:00:44.240
<v Speaker 1>What's your pet peeve at a golf course. I've got mine.

1:00:44.320 --> 1:00:45.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm just curious what yours are.

1:00:48.280 --> 1:00:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Where do I start green speeds? I can't tell you

1:00:52.520 --> 1:00:56.280
<v Speaker 2>how many golf courses I know that that consumed way

1:00:56.320 --> 1:01:00.360
<v Speaker 2>too much energy and too much thought and re versus

1:01:00.400 --> 1:01:04.480
<v Speaker 2>around trying to trying to get speeds to a certain level. Uh.

1:01:04.520 --> 1:01:07.400
<v Speaker 2>And then I would also say that, you know, one

1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:10.520
<v Speaker 2>of my pet piece personally is this idea of designing

1:01:10.560 --> 1:01:14.640
<v Speaker 2>courses for the better player while making them playable and

1:01:14.760 --> 1:01:18.840
<v Speaker 2>interesting for the you know, the average player, and you

1:01:18.880 --> 1:01:21.760
<v Speaker 2>know to me that that is that sounds so easy

1:01:21.760 --> 1:01:24.560
<v Speaker 2>to do when you apply those to a particular piece

1:01:24.600 --> 1:01:29.400
<v Speaker 2>of property, and especially a renovation that has limitations it.

1:01:29.920 --> 1:01:31.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, playing the right set of tease is so

1:01:31.880 --> 1:01:36.000
<v Speaker 2>important and and so from a golfing standpoint, the idea

1:01:36.280 --> 1:01:39.200
<v Speaker 2>that any man would ultimately move forward to us at

1:01:39.200 --> 1:01:42.080
<v Speaker 2>a teas that aren't you know, in his wheelhouse, to

1:01:42.160 --> 1:01:44.400
<v Speaker 2>me that that's a major pet peeve. But all of

1:01:44.400 --> 1:01:48.080
<v Speaker 2>the things around length and and teeing teeing grounds is

1:01:48.120 --> 1:01:51.400
<v Speaker 2>something that that that I probably would describe as a

1:01:51.400 --> 1:01:51.880
<v Speaker 2>pet peeve.

1:01:52.720 --> 1:01:55.919
<v Speaker 1>It's funny. I so I played golf with a guy

1:01:56.000 --> 1:01:59.240
<v Speaker 1>that I've played golf with like dozens of times in

1:01:59.600 --> 1:02:03.200
<v Speaker 1>Florida recently. He's an older guy, and yeah, he likes

1:02:03.200 --> 1:02:05.960
<v Speaker 1>playing back with me when he and he you know,

1:02:06.000 --> 1:02:08.600
<v Speaker 1>he's a guy that's played in in a ton of

1:02:08.720 --> 1:02:11.960
<v Speaker 1>USGA events, Like this guy's a stick. He was, you know,

1:02:12.400 --> 1:02:14.680
<v Speaker 1>one of the best players in Ohio for a long

1:02:14.720 --> 1:02:18.520
<v Speaker 1>time and as an am and and it's funny. He's

1:02:18.720 --> 1:02:21.480
<v Speaker 1>he's getting I think he's close to seventy now. But

1:02:22.120 --> 1:02:25.480
<v Speaker 1>we played and we had another older guy in the

1:02:25.480 --> 1:02:28.040
<v Speaker 1>group and he played way up. I mean he played

1:02:28.560 --> 1:02:32.080
<v Speaker 1>under probably under six thousand yards fifty seven hundred yards,

1:02:32.480 --> 1:02:35.520
<v Speaker 1>and like, all of a sudden, like this guy was

1:02:35.800 --> 1:02:38.360
<v Speaker 1>a stick again. And it's like and I talked to

1:02:38.440 --> 1:02:40.400
<v Speaker 1>him about it, He's like, I love it. Like I

1:02:40.440 --> 1:02:43.040
<v Speaker 1>play like I used to play, because I'm hitting shots

1:02:43.040 --> 1:02:45.760
<v Speaker 1>and I'm getting birdie putts when I hit a good drive.

1:02:45.840 --> 1:02:47.960
<v Speaker 1>I've got a short iron end when I hit you know,

1:02:48.080 --> 1:02:50.680
<v Speaker 1>on longer part fours, I've got I've got long iron

1:02:50.720 --> 1:02:52.960
<v Speaker 1>mid irons. But I'm not just chipping up all the

1:02:53.000 --> 1:02:55.320
<v Speaker 1>time anymore. Like if I mean, he can go play

1:02:55.320 --> 1:02:57.720
<v Speaker 1>at the back to he's and shoot seventy six, seventy eight,

1:02:58.040 --> 1:03:00.560
<v Speaker 1>but now he can shoot in the sixties every time

1:03:00.600 --> 1:03:04.800
<v Speaker 1>if he plays up awesome, and it's just more fun.

1:03:05.760 --> 1:03:07.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So a little bit going back to Meadowbrooks for

1:03:07.760 --> 1:03:11.040
<v Speaker 2>a second, there were some people, some gals on our

1:03:11.320 --> 1:03:14.560
<v Speaker 2>on our committee and in the focus groups, that thought

1:03:14.600 --> 1:03:17.000
<v Speaker 2>the game of golf was meant to be played driver

1:03:17.160 --> 1:03:20.720
<v Speaker 2>three would on every part four and part five, and

1:03:20.760 --> 1:03:23.760
<v Speaker 2>in some cases driver on every part three. That's what

1:03:23.800 --> 1:03:27.360
<v Speaker 2>they thought golf was. And and when you start to

1:03:27.400 --> 1:03:29.800
<v Speaker 2>think about that, that there's there's a whole generation of

1:03:29.800 --> 1:03:34.040
<v Speaker 2>golfers that have not been able to experience the game

1:03:34.120 --> 1:03:37.000
<v Speaker 2>the way that we talk about you know, the driver

1:03:37.120 --> 1:03:39.680
<v Speaker 2>short end or a driveable hole. You know, they think

1:03:39.680 --> 1:03:44.520
<v Speaker 2>of a driverable hole being a part three. It's crazy.

1:03:44.760 --> 1:03:48.600
<v Speaker 1>It's yeah. I think that that playing the right t

1:03:49.120 --> 1:03:52.200
<v Speaker 1>is like one of the biggest epidemics in American golf

1:03:52.800 --> 1:03:55.640
<v Speaker 1>and then in you know, Kingdom. Just there's so many

1:03:55.640 --> 1:03:58.480
<v Speaker 1>golf courses that are like, you know, fifty six hundred

1:03:58.520 --> 1:04:01.280
<v Speaker 1>yards that's fine, right, Well.

1:04:01.160 --> 1:04:03.720
<v Speaker 2>That's the difference. That's the difference where because there's this

1:04:03.800 --> 1:04:06.680
<v Speaker 2>discussion about how many t's, how many tea and grounds

1:04:06.720 --> 1:04:09.200
<v Speaker 2>on a golf hole or too many? Is is three?

1:04:09.240 --> 1:04:11.919
<v Speaker 2>The right number is four? Is five? Oh my gosh,

1:04:11.960 --> 1:04:14.200
<v Speaker 2>we can't do six. That's way too many. Well, that

1:04:14.280 --> 1:04:17.760
<v Speaker 2>only happens when you get yardages above the sixty three

1:04:17.800 --> 1:04:20.439
<v Speaker 2>hundred yard mark. You know a lot of these even

1:04:20.480 --> 1:04:22.000
<v Speaker 2>if you get the sixty six hundred yard you might

1:04:22.000 --> 1:04:24.040
<v Speaker 2>have a little small, little back tea, but you know

1:04:24.080 --> 1:04:26.160
<v Speaker 2>it's now when you go from seventy three hundred yards

1:04:26.200 --> 1:04:28.200
<v Speaker 2>all the way down to four thousand, which is what

1:04:28.240 --> 1:04:30.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to do. It's trying to get this diversification.

1:04:31.600 --> 1:04:33.960
<v Speaker 2>It's it's hard to make a golf hole look classic

1:04:34.040 --> 1:04:36.880
<v Speaker 2>and like it fits with all these little pads. So

1:04:36.920 --> 1:04:38.640
<v Speaker 2>that's one of the things that I think we're really

1:04:38.840 --> 1:04:41.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, we're really working hard to give that diversity.

1:04:42.000 --> 1:04:45.040
<v Speaker 2>And you know, combo sets of t's are really popular

1:04:45.120 --> 1:04:47.320
<v Speaker 2>in my world, where you can only you know, only

1:04:47.360 --> 1:04:49.200
<v Speaker 2>have to build three or four sets of t's, maybe

1:04:49.240 --> 1:04:50.720
<v Speaker 2>ones all the way up in the fairway so you're

1:04:50.720 --> 1:04:53.240
<v Speaker 2>not really mowing that as a tee and then combo

1:04:53.320 --> 1:04:55.280
<v Speaker 2>in between, so that you have the right yardage that

1:04:55.280 --> 1:04:58.840
<v Speaker 2>you're looking for, but you're only utilizing three t's. To me,

1:04:58.960 --> 1:05:00.000
<v Speaker 2>that's that makes a lot of sense.

1:05:00.800 --> 1:05:06.040
<v Speaker 1>I mean, playing more tees and different teas on different

1:05:06.080 --> 1:05:08.480
<v Speaker 1>holes like is only going to add to the variety

1:05:08.800 --> 1:05:11.360
<v Speaker 1>of the golf course, especially if you play the the

1:05:11.400 --> 1:05:15.440
<v Speaker 1>course on a daily basis or a regular basis.

1:05:15.960 --> 1:05:19.280
<v Speaker 2>I totally agree. So so san Holo, I worked on

1:05:19.280 --> 1:05:23.680
<v Speaker 2>a product in Saint George's Utah Sanjalo, and when I

1:05:23.760 --> 1:05:27.320
<v Speaker 2>take friends there, I never play from the scorecard. We

1:05:27.360 --> 1:05:30.000
<v Speaker 2>always have a game. You know, not all my friends

1:05:30.040 --> 1:05:32.120
<v Speaker 2>are all great players, but you know, well I'm not

1:05:32.160 --> 1:05:33.680
<v Speaker 2>a great player, But I mean some of them are

1:05:34.000 --> 1:05:36.360
<v Speaker 2>lesser than I am, but I'll take them to a

1:05:36.400 --> 1:05:38.600
<v Speaker 2>set of tees to say, Okay, this is what we

1:05:38.600 --> 1:05:41.520
<v Speaker 2>were thinking about here, and this is where you play

1:05:41.560 --> 1:05:43.600
<v Speaker 2>it now. And then there's a there's a twenty it's

1:05:43.640 --> 1:05:45.800
<v Speaker 2>twenty seven holes and one of one of the nines

1:05:45.880 --> 1:05:50.560
<v Speaker 2>is a kind of an open all mode together concept

1:05:50.800 --> 1:05:54.240
<v Speaker 2>called the Links nine, and we specifically intended that course

1:05:54.280 --> 1:05:56.440
<v Speaker 2>to be played from multiple sets of tees so that

1:05:56.520 --> 1:05:59.200
<v Speaker 2>you could have a different feeling as you played it through.

1:05:59.280 --> 1:06:03.000
<v Speaker 2>So to me, I never go back to my courses

1:06:03.040 --> 1:06:05.280
<v Speaker 2>and actually play from the card. I will always take

1:06:05.360 --> 1:06:07.920
<v Speaker 2>my friends, especially if it's only one time. All right, guys,

1:06:08.000 --> 1:06:09.680
<v Speaker 2>let's go play from this tea, because this is where

1:06:09.680 --> 1:06:12.360
<v Speaker 2>it really based on who I'm playing with, this is

1:06:12.400 --> 1:06:15.240
<v Speaker 2>exactly how it was meant to be played. And to

1:06:15.280 --> 1:06:17.080
<v Speaker 2>me that you know, of course, that's a little inside

1:06:17.080 --> 1:06:20.080
<v Speaker 2>knowledge from my standpoint, but the it's it's not very

1:06:20.080 --> 1:06:23.080
<v Speaker 2>well accepted and not not not well no, not well

1:06:23.120 --> 1:06:24.840
<v Speaker 2>practiced within our industry for sure.

1:06:25.560 --> 1:06:29.240
<v Speaker 1>We talked about Bandon Dunes earlier, and I mean, I

1:06:29.320 --> 1:06:32.040
<v Speaker 1>think that was one of the big philosophies of that

1:06:32.120 --> 1:06:35.400
<v Speaker 1>whole place, was like designing a golf course around like

1:06:35.680 --> 1:06:38.080
<v Speaker 1>at a yardage where people would enjoy golf.

1:06:39.600 --> 1:06:43.640
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, I mean, well the original course, they've they've even

1:06:43.680 --> 1:06:46.600
<v Speaker 2>added some tea's going forward. You know, my friend Art

1:06:46.600 --> 1:06:49.080
<v Speaker 2>Little has been a part up there helping out with

1:06:49.120 --> 1:06:54.360
<v Speaker 2>this idea of relating swing speed to actual yardage on

1:06:54.400 --> 1:06:57.080
<v Speaker 2>a golf course. And when you actually use something somewhat

1:06:57.080 --> 1:06:59.600
<v Speaker 2>technical like that, you start to say, Okay, you know

1:06:59.720 --> 1:07:04.320
<v Speaker 2>there's certain limitations for actual abilities based on how you're

1:07:04.320 --> 1:07:06.120
<v Speaker 2>swinging and how far you could actually carry the ball,

1:07:06.160 --> 1:07:07.840
<v Speaker 2>because that's a lot a lot of what it comes

1:07:07.840 --> 1:07:10.280
<v Speaker 2>down to is these force carriers are getting up to

1:07:10.320 --> 1:07:12.800
<v Speaker 2>the fairways. So yeah, but I couldn't agree more. They've

1:07:12.800 --> 1:07:15.560
<v Speaker 2>done done a great job of you know now they

1:07:15.600 --> 1:07:17.919
<v Speaker 2>even funnel everybody right to the sixty three or sixty

1:07:17.960 --> 1:07:19.000
<v Speaker 2>two hundred yard golf course.

1:07:20.600 --> 1:07:23.919
<v Speaker 1>You got your start in the industry in a role

1:07:24.080 --> 1:07:28.960
<v Speaker 1>for a construction company that is regularly contracted to do work,

1:07:29.000 --> 1:07:34.200
<v Speaker 1>and curious your take on kind of this design build

1:07:34.440 --> 1:07:39.400
<v Speaker 1>and versus design contract not really schism is I don't

1:07:39.400 --> 1:07:42.600
<v Speaker 1>know if that's the right word, but debate that that is,

1:07:42.760 --> 1:07:45.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, prevalent in golf course architecture.

1:07:47.120 --> 1:07:51.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's that's a big, big discussion. So anybody who's

1:07:51.960 --> 1:07:57.120
<v Speaker 2>worked in a really you know, a good open design

1:07:57.200 --> 1:08:03.160
<v Speaker 2>build relationship where where not everybody, not nobody on the

1:08:03.200 --> 1:08:06.440
<v Speaker 2>team is going to get penalized and there's not a

1:08:06.480 --> 1:08:11.440
<v Speaker 2>major schedule. It's not that we're milking time or whatever.

1:08:11.520 --> 1:08:15.440
<v Speaker 2>But uh, the design build is by far the you know,

1:08:15.760 --> 1:08:19.640
<v Speaker 2>the best way to get results and and certainly have

1:08:20.880 --> 1:08:22.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, some pretty good fun doing it. Where where

1:08:22.920 --> 1:08:27.840
<v Speaker 2>the design contract starts to become uh, you know, more

1:08:27.880 --> 1:08:30.599
<v Speaker 2>of a role and there's a lot of talk about

1:08:30.600 --> 1:08:34.240
<v Speaker 2>design build and and how you know, in the in

1:08:34.280 --> 1:08:37.280
<v Speaker 2>the twenty thirty years ago, architects would drop plans and

1:08:37.320 --> 1:08:40.040
<v Speaker 2>then hand them over to a contractor. You know, I

1:08:40.080 --> 1:08:42.280
<v Speaker 2>get that, and in a lot of cases I've been

1:08:42.320 --> 1:08:44.839
<v Speaker 2>a part of some projects like that. But that happened

1:08:44.840 --> 1:08:47.519
<v Speaker 2>for I think a real reason. Even today, even when

1:08:47.560 --> 1:08:49.839
<v Speaker 2>you when you're doing a design build, you're still having

1:08:49.880 --> 1:08:53.479
<v Speaker 2>to have a contractor as part of the as part

1:08:53.520 --> 1:08:56.840
<v Speaker 2>of the team. I've yet even today, you know, to

1:08:56.920 --> 1:08:59.600
<v Speaker 2>find those That's what we did at San Hollo. We

1:08:59.640 --> 1:09:01.640
<v Speaker 2>had all everyone on of time of materials, and we

1:09:01.840 --> 1:09:04.680
<v Speaker 2>started the project and we didn't stop until we were

1:09:04.680 --> 1:09:07.639
<v Speaker 2>happy with it. But that is so rare these days.

1:09:08.200 --> 1:09:12.640
<v Speaker 2>Owners want budgets, they want time frames, certainly on a

1:09:12.840 --> 1:09:16.559
<v Speaker 2>on a renovations schedule. They only want to be closed

1:09:16.600 --> 1:09:18.439
<v Speaker 2>for a certain part of the season or only one

1:09:18.479 --> 1:09:20.920
<v Speaker 2>season and that's it, or else it's not going to pass.

1:09:21.600 --> 1:09:25.599
<v Speaker 2>And so contractors start to bring the ability for architects

1:09:25.640 --> 1:09:28.120
<v Speaker 2>to meet those goals. And I think, to me, when

1:09:28.200 --> 1:09:30.519
<v Speaker 2>you apply, then when you apply the actual business of

1:09:31.000 --> 1:09:34.200
<v Speaker 2>design and being able to only have a certain amount

1:09:34.200 --> 1:09:36.880
<v Speaker 2>of time in your in your schedule that you know

1:09:37.240 --> 1:09:38.800
<v Speaker 2>to be able to spend one hundred percent of your

1:09:38.840 --> 1:09:41.519
<v Speaker 2>time on a golf course, you know that limits you

1:09:41.560 --> 1:09:44.599
<v Speaker 2>on a lot of other areas. So what I've done

1:09:44.840 --> 1:09:48.479
<v Speaker 2>is I've set my I try to include design, shaping

1:09:48.520 --> 1:09:50.800
<v Speaker 2>and part of my contract. I've got a guy that

1:09:50.840 --> 1:09:52.719
<v Speaker 2>I've done a lot of work with. His named Scott

1:09:52.760 --> 1:09:56.719
<v Speaker 2>Scott Clem. But I've a great guy, great at architecture, geek.

1:09:56.720 --> 1:09:59.720
<v Speaker 2>He understands it from what we're all trying to accomplish.

1:09:59.720 --> 1:10:02.240
<v Speaker 2>But I've other guys that I've worked with. I always

1:10:02.240 --> 1:10:05.720
<v Speaker 2>try to have somebody there to support me. But but

1:10:05.800 --> 1:10:08.360
<v Speaker 2>I think as long as you're able to spend the

1:10:08.439 --> 1:10:10.160
<v Speaker 2>right amount of time in the field, which is what

1:10:10.240 --> 1:10:11.640
<v Speaker 2>I always try to do, even though I'm not on

1:10:11.680 --> 1:10:14.960
<v Speaker 2>a piece of equipment. However, I have, I have operated.

1:10:15.000 --> 1:10:19.160
<v Speaker 2>I just I just don't anymore. And so those guys

1:10:19.200 --> 1:10:21.200
<v Speaker 2>are a lot better at it than I am. And

1:10:21.240 --> 1:10:26.080
<v Speaker 2>so you know, the designed contract works for me in

1:10:26.120 --> 1:10:29.320
<v Speaker 2>the in the times that clients dictate it, and then

1:10:29.360 --> 1:10:31.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm able to spend a lot of time in the field.

1:10:31.680 --> 1:10:33.160
<v Speaker 2>So I don't know if I've answered a question, but

1:10:33.160 --> 1:10:35.560
<v Speaker 2>that there's a lot there on that on that discussion.

1:10:36.280 --> 1:10:38.280
<v Speaker 2>You know, I've always wondered for guys that are really

1:10:38.320 --> 1:10:41.760
<v Speaker 2>promoting design build, you know, especially when you know the

1:10:41.800 --> 1:10:44.240
<v Speaker 2>self operators. You know, I just think of it in

1:10:44.320 --> 1:10:46.880
<v Speaker 2>my own my own time. I've got a family, I've

1:10:46.920 --> 1:10:50.040
<v Speaker 2>got three young boys are playing baseball, you know, So

1:10:50.120 --> 1:10:52.040
<v Speaker 2>I I prefer to try to get it in a

1:10:52.080 --> 1:10:54.439
<v Speaker 2>position where I where I work with contractors on a

1:10:54.479 --> 1:10:57.920
<v Speaker 2>regular basis or shapers that on a regular basis, because

1:10:58.560 --> 1:11:01.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, Scott goes you know, months of a time

1:11:01.040 --> 1:11:04.720
<v Speaker 2>at certain places when when it's the right project. But

1:11:04.920 --> 1:11:07.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, the design build has its own limitations, and

1:11:08.000 --> 1:11:10.519
<v Speaker 2>there's only so much time in a day that if

1:11:10.520 --> 1:11:12.160
<v Speaker 2>you're going to want to do multiple projects, or if

1:11:12.160 --> 1:11:14.680
<v Speaker 2>you're lucky enough to have multiple projects going on at

1:11:14.720 --> 1:11:17.800
<v Speaker 2>one time, design build gets a lot more difficult when

1:11:17.840 --> 1:11:19.879
<v Speaker 2>you when you spread yourself then.

1:11:20.520 --> 1:11:25.680
<v Speaker 1>Is the efficiencies of running a business. It definitely it

1:11:26.080 --> 1:11:30.519
<v Speaker 1>hinders how many projects you can take on. I think,

1:11:30.840 --> 1:11:35.040
<v Speaker 1>you know, I think there's a huge value to you know,

1:11:35.160 --> 1:11:38.000
<v Speaker 1>the design, build and the work. I think it's a

1:11:38.080 --> 1:11:43.680
<v Speaker 1>it's a fascinating aspect because you know, I think everything

1:11:44.080 --> 1:11:47.360
<v Speaker 1>in all of the world kind of tends to swing

1:11:47.439 --> 1:11:52.280
<v Speaker 1>on pendulums, you know, and in the eighties and early

1:11:52.439 --> 1:11:55.720
<v Speaker 1>nineties it was way over on the contractor side, you know,

1:11:55.840 --> 1:11:57.280
<v Speaker 1>this is the way to do it, you know.

1:11:57.840 --> 1:11:59.680
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, what i'd say about that though, you know,

1:11:59.800 --> 1:12:01.760
<v Speaker 2>one of the things that that that I have to say

1:12:01.800 --> 1:12:05.040
<v Speaker 2>about the contractor side is that, you know, because the

1:12:05.120 --> 1:12:10.840
<v Speaker 2>business became so so busy, you now have a lot

1:12:10.880 --> 1:12:13.519
<v Speaker 2>of people building golf courses who don't even play golf.

1:12:14.160 --> 1:12:16.200
<v Speaker 2>And that's one of the things that I feel. You

1:12:16.240 --> 1:12:18.800
<v Speaker 2>talk a lot about the dark Ages, you know, maybe

1:12:18.840 --> 1:12:20.559
<v Speaker 2>a reference that before you know, a lot of it

1:12:20.600 --> 1:12:24.080
<v Speaker 2>is people just didn't understand the game and you're now

1:12:24.160 --> 1:12:27.760
<v Speaker 2>you're asking somebody to put a little curl in a green,

1:12:27.840 --> 1:12:31.280
<v Speaker 2>a little wrinkle, a little little bump, and you know,

1:12:31.360 --> 1:12:33.200
<v Speaker 2>Scott and I will shape it in and we'll try

1:12:33.200 --> 1:12:35.200
<v Speaker 2>to get it in there right, and you know, I'll

1:12:35.439 --> 1:12:37.439
<v Speaker 2>be out there with my rake and shovel and getting

1:12:37.479 --> 1:12:39.439
<v Speaker 2>it exactly right, and then the finished crew comes through

1:12:39.479 --> 1:12:42.280
<v Speaker 2>and wipes it out because you know, the last ten

1:12:42.360 --> 1:12:45.800
<v Speaker 2>FASIO jobs they've done, that was something that got wiped out.

1:12:46.000 --> 1:12:49.320
<v Speaker 2>We removed it. Well, no, that was something I specifically

1:12:49.400 --> 1:12:52.439
<v Speaker 2>wanted there and they'd never seen it before. And so

1:12:52.640 --> 1:12:56.879
<v Speaker 2>to me, to me, what what the design Builds concept

1:12:56.920 --> 1:12:59.479
<v Speaker 2>today is really doing is it's putting the focus back

1:12:59.520 --> 1:13:03.360
<v Speaker 2>on understand the game of golf. And to me, that's

1:13:03.520 --> 1:13:05.120
<v Speaker 2>that's what's really cool about it, you know, and I

1:13:05.120 --> 1:13:08.240
<v Speaker 2>think you can get you can get there. You know.

1:13:08.280 --> 1:13:10.120
<v Speaker 2>Back to that eighty twenty year old we need to

1:13:10.160 --> 1:13:12.840
<v Speaker 2>make it at least eighty percent right now. The question

1:13:12.960 --> 1:13:14.720
<v Speaker 2>is how much of that twenty percent. I try to

1:13:14.720 --> 1:13:16.880
<v Speaker 2>get as close to one hundred percent as I possibly can,

1:13:17.640 --> 1:13:19.519
<v Speaker 2>and the only way to get one hundred percent is

1:13:19.880 --> 1:13:24.559
<v Speaker 2>actually being there doing it yourself. Design building. But then again,

1:13:25.040 --> 1:13:27.240
<v Speaker 2>if I'm there for the last two months doing that.

1:13:27.840 --> 1:13:30.519
<v Speaker 2>More than likely I missed out on another RFP. I wasn't

1:13:30.520 --> 1:13:33.000
<v Speaker 2>able to, right, you know, make a visit to go

1:13:33.680 --> 1:13:36.439
<v Speaker 2>inquire about this other project. And oh, by the way,

1:13:36.479 --> 1:13:39.640
<v Speaker 2>I just missed three baseball games. And so you know,

1:13:39.720 --> 1:13:42.280
<v Speaker 2>life happens in between there. And to me, that's where

1:13:42.280 --> 1:13:45.920
<v Speaker 2>I wonder how the design build will stand up from

1:13:45.920 --> 1:13:49.120
<v Speaker 2>a business standpoint, because the contracting happened for a reason,

1:13:49.160 --> 1:13:50.519
<v Speaker 2>and that was to be able to do a lot

1:13:50.520 --> 1:13:53.439
<v Speaker 2>of golf over a very short period of time. Now

1:13:53.479 --> 1:13:55.600
<v Speaker 2>we've swung back the other way to your analogy with

1:13:55.640 --> 1:13:58.840
<v Speaker 2>the pendulum, I just wonder how much we're going to

1:13:58.840 --> 1:14:03.439
<v Speaker 2>actually be able to you know, whether a design build

1:14:03.439 --> 1:14:06.439
<v Speaker 2>will actually be a sustainable model for guys like me.

1:14:06.760 --> 1:14:10.040
<v Speaker 1>Hey, I think it ends up settling somewhere in the

1:14:10.080 --> 1:14:14.120
<v Speaker 1>middle where you know, there's there's a you know, there's

1:14:14.160 --> 1:14:18.280
<v Speaker 1>a role of each and different projects call for different methods,

1:14:18.479 --> 1:14:18.680
<v Speaker 1>you know.

1:14:19.439 --> 1:14:22.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think well, and I think a five million

1:14:22.800 --> 1:14:25.719
<v Speaker 2>dollar renovation is a lot different than a six hundred

1:14:25.720 --> 1:14:28.160
<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars bunker project, right so I think I think

1:14:28.200 --> 1:14:32.439
<v Speaker 2>to me, to me, scale and and logistics start to

1:14:32.479 --> 1:14:35.799
<v Speaker 2>play right in line with, you know, the right construction process.

1:14:35.840 --> 1:14:37.960
<v Speaker 2>Do you need this kind of contractor with this kind

1:14:37.960 --> 1:14:42.080
<v Speaker 2>of financial financial sense, you know, or for financial backing

1:14:42.080 --> 1:14:44.720
<v Speaker 2>to be able to get this project done. I went

1:14:44.720 --> 1:14:47.839
<v Speaker 2>back to Meadowbrook and I went to them and I said,

1:14:48.000 --> 1:14:50.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, guys, if you're asking me how to do

1:14:50.760 --> 1:14:53.120
<v Speaker 2>this right, we should design, build and get get a

1:14:53.160 --> 1:14:56.120
<v Speaker 2>contractor to help support us, and bring in some some

1:14:56.120 --> 1:14:58.440
<v Speaker 2>support staff and put everybody on the time of materials

1:14:58.640 --> 1:15:03.880
<v Speaker 2>so that there's no there's no feeling of you know,

1:15:03.920 --> 1:15:07.360
<v Speaker 2>of everybody but he getting you know, lost or or losing.

1:15:08.200 --> 1:15:11.240
<v Speaker 2>And the president of the club at the times that Andy,

1:15:11.280 --> 1:15:13.479
<v Speaker 2>we just can't do that. We need a number, We

1:15:13.560 --> 1:15:15.800
<v Speaker 2>need to go to the membership with a number. And

1:15:15.840 --> 1:15:17.679
<v Speaker 2>I said, well, I can give you a number. Yeah,

1:15:17.680 --> 1:15:19.160
<v Speaker 2>but we don't have a contract that says that it's

1:15:19.200 --> 1:15:21.200
<v Speaker 2>not going to exceed that. Well, no, it's a time

1:15:21.240 --> 1:15:23.920
<v Speaker 2>of materials. But yet you're gonna we're going to manage this.

1:15:24.360 --> 1:15:27.320
<v Speaker 2>It just didn't fly. Now looking back, he looks at it,

1:15:27.360 --> 1:15:29.320
<v Speaker 2>he says, oh, now I see what you're saying. That

1:15:29.360 --> 1:15:31.920
<v Speaker 2>would have been some value there, But there's no way

1:15:31.960 --> 1:15:33.720
<v Speaker 2>I could have convinced Metalbrook to do that. They're just

1:15:33.920 --> 1:15:37.840
<v Speaker 2>so we picked our battle and we designed contract at it.

1:15:37.920 --> 1:15:41.320
<v Speaker 2>Scott and another couple of guys were shapers on it,

1:15:41.920 --> 1:15:44.640
<v Speaker 2>and then we had a contractor you know, doing the

1:15:44.640 --> 1:15:45.240
<v Speaker 2>heavy lifting.

1:15:46.200 --> 1:15:49.880
<v Speaker 1>Let's get into some lighter stuff, all right, all right,

1:15:50.200 --> 1:15:55.160
<v Speaker 1>who do you consider the most the least appreciated architect.

1:15:56.200 --> 1:16:03.439
<v Speaker 2>Least appreciated, underappreciated, underappreciated. You know, I I go back

1:16:03.479 --> 1:16:06.000
<v Speaker 2>to a guy like Perry Maxwell. I know he's probably

1:16:06.000 --> 1:16:08.479
<v Speaker 2>gained a little bit more traction in our architecture world

1:16:08.479 --> 1:16:10.840
<v Speaker 2>than he has in years past, but I got a

1:16:10.920 --> 1:16:13.920
<v Speaker 2>chance when I live back in Arkansas and Oklahoma in Texas,

1:16:13.960 --> 1:16:15.719
<v Speaker 2>I got a chance to see some of his stuff,

1:16:15.920 --> 1:16:19.080
<v Speaker 2>and he built you know, in today's world, he would

1:16:19.080 --> 1:16:21.120
<v Speaker 2>have been able to build golf courses for almost nothing.

1:16:21.160 --> 1:16:24.080
<v Speaker 2>He was a great router of golf courses and and

1:16:24.360 --> 1:16:27.719
<v Speaker 2>did things in the depression that that is probably equal

1:16:27.760 --> 1:16:30.400
<v Speaker 2>to her or greater than what we did through our

1:16:30.439 --> 1:16:34.320
<v Speaker 2>own great recession. So I'm gonna say, Perry Maxwell, all.

1:16:34.280 --> 1:16:40.519
<v Speaker 1>Right, what's your favorite design feature that flies under the radar?

1:16:43.160 --> 1:16:48.160
<v Speaker 2>Chocolate drops? I think that I'm a guy that that

1:16:48.280 --> 1:16:49.800
<v Speaker 2>when you go see a place like gardens of the

1:16:49.800 --> 1:16:54.559
<v Speaker 2>golf club, or even go to Huntercombe and and see

1:16:54.800 --> 1:16:57.720
<v Speaker 2>see these old school kind of you know, you excavate

1:16:57.800 --> 1:17:00.720
<v Speaker 2>and then put a pile of dirt and it just

1:17:00.800 --> 1:17:03.040
<v Speaker 2>has fescue growing on the top of it. And there's

1:17:03.080 --> 1:17:04.679
<v Speaker 2>three or four or five of them in that area,

1:17:05.120 --> 1:17:08.080
<v Speaker 2>and they become part of the the aesthetic of the

1:17:08.120 --> 1:17:11.040
<v Speaker 2>whole course and the hazard and the strategy. So those

1:17:11.200 --> 1:17:13.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm a big I love stream features and I love

1:17:13.800 --> 1:17:16.679
<v Speaker 2>rock walls. I love things that are able to make

1:17:16.760 --> 1:17:21.120
<v Speaker 2>something look interesting and authentic and maybe old. And I

1:17:21.120 --> 1:17:23.240
<v Speaker 2>think a good old fashioned chocolate drop does that.

1:17:23.640 --> 1:17:26.880
<v Speaker 1>You like artificial rock walls.

1:17:27.320 --> 1:17:30.439
<v Speaker 2>Well, if they're done in a way we did these.

1:17:30.560 --> 1:17:33.559
<v Speaker 2>We did these series. I like them when they're done

1:17:33.600 --> 1:17:35.559
<v Speaker 2>when someone thinks they one hundred years old. So we

1:17:36.360 --> 1:17:40.439
<v Speaker 2>was getting that. I was helping that. We did a

1:17:40.479 --> 1:17:43.719
<v Speaker 2>rock wall behind the first screen and along the second

1:17:43.720 --> 1:17:47.400
<v Speaker 2>tier at Meadowbrook. I did a lava lava rock wall

1:17:47.439 --> 1:17:52.360
<v Speaker 2>at at st at Sanjalo. We imported this lava from

1:17:52.439 --> 1:17:55.280
<v Speaker 2>like three miles away, and everybody who sees it thinks

1:17:55.280 --> 1:17:58.320
<v Speaker 2>it's been there one hundred years. So we work really

1:17:58.320 --> 1:17:59.559
<v Speaker 2>hard to make it look cool.

1:18:00.080 --> 1:18:04.120
<v Speaker 1>Nothing drives me more than seeing like a brand new

1:18:04.400 --> 1:18:08.280
<v Speaker 1>rock wall that like you can tell was just installed

1:18:08.680 --> 1:18:11.799
<v Speaker 1>and just as like screams like waste of money.

1:18:12.320 --> 1:18:14.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, yeah. So so one of the best parts

1:18:14.600 --> 1:18:16.799
<v Speaker 2>of this rock wall that we did at San Hollo

1:18:17.240 --> 1:18:20.559
<v Speaker 2>is we stacked them all up and then we'd go

1:18:20.880 --> 1:18:25.880
<v Speaker 2>periodically with an excavator and push it over like yes,

1:18:26.320 --> 1:18:28.640
<v Speaker 2>that's right, it fell over right there. So and we

1:18:28.760 --> 1:18:30.360
<v Speaker 2>go to the next spot and then we took sand

1:18:30.400 --> 1:18:32.479
<v Speaker 2>and blew it up over the top of it. You know,

1:18:32.680 --> 1:18:34.559
<v Speaker 2>we crossed one of the holes at San Hullo right

1:18:34.600 --> 1:18:36.280
<v Speaker 2>in front of the second tee and the links course,

1:18:36.920 --> 1:18:39.599
<v Speaker 2>so it was right in front of the tees, so

1:18:39.760 --> 1:18:42.880
<v Speaker 2>the average guy could skip it over the wall. So

1:18:42.880 --> 1:18:45.000
<v Speaker 2>so we actually piled up and ramped up the sand

1:18:45.040 --> 1:18:46.599
<v Speaker 2>as if it was a dune that kind of blew

1:18:46.640 --> 1:18:49.000
<v Speaker 2>over the wall.

1:18:49.600 --> 1:18:52.320
<v Speaker 1>All Right, you ready for overrated, underrated?

1:18:53.080 --> 1:18:56.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess, so let's do this, all right, cross bunkers,

1:18:58.920 --> 1:19:03.320
<v Speaker 2>cross bunkers. Well, they I would call them underrated in

1:19:03.400 --> 1:19:06.920
<v Speaker 2>the fact that people just don't appreciate their why they're there,

1:19:08.120 --> 1:19:10.880
<v Speaker 2>and it's kind of a tended it's kind of a

1:19:10.920 --> 1:19:12.960
<v Speaker 2>signal on what's happened with the game of golf, where

1:19:13.600 --> 1:19:15.280
<v Speaker 2>where if a cross bunker is one hundred and eighty

1:19:15.320 --> 1:19:19.080
<v Speaker 2>yards off the tee and everyone hits into it, the

1:19:19.200 --> 1:19:22.799
<v Speaker 2>idea that you should have played around it has been lost.

1:19:22.840 --> 1:19:25.559
<v Speaker 2>So I guess I'll call cross bunkers underrated because they

1:19:25.720 --> 1:19:28.080
<v Speaker 2>for a period of time they just all but disappeared

1:19:28.080 --> 1:19:32.640
<v Speaker 2>on our golf courses. But slowly, with this restoration, you

1:19:32.800 --> 1:19:35.479
<v Speaker 2>kind of you know where restoration has been going, and

1:19:35.680 --> 1:19:37.040
<v Speaker 2>you're seeing a lot of them come back.

1:19:37.840 --> 1:19:41.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I agree, they I feel like a lot of

1:19:41.439 --> 1:19:44.719
<v Speaker 1>them fell fell to mowing lines shrinking.

1:19:44.800 --> 1:19:47.080
<v Speaker 2>Also, well, I think a lot of them are on

1:19:47.120 --> 1:19:49.479
<v Speaker 2>the tee. But the ones that I'm having some really

1:19:49.479 --> 1:19:51.920
<v Speaker 2>good success bringing back are the ones that are short

1:19:51.920 --> 1:19:56.360
<v Speaker 2>of the greens. And when when golfers actually see that

1:19:56.479 --> 1:20:00.040
<v Speaker 2>they're there to distort, you know, and that that the

1:20:00.080 --> 1:20:03.400
<v Speaker 2>better player has an equal problem with seeing where that

1:20:04.280 --> 1:20:07.280
<v Speaker 2>where it heads, where how far it is from the green,

1:20:07.320 --> 1:20:09.240
<v Speaker 2>and whether or not they know it's further away, but

1:20:09.320 --> 1:20:11.960
<v Speaker 2>yet it still kind of gets them thinking. And so

1:20:12.439 --> 1:20:14.920
<v Speaker 2>that fifty yard bunker off of the green, on the

1:20:15.160 --> 1:20:17.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, off of the green, and the approach bunkers,

1:20:17.840 --> 1:20:19.679
<v Speaker 2>I'm starting to see those starting to gain some really

1:20:19.680 --> 1:20:21.559
<v Speaker 2>good traction, which I'm really happy about.

1:20:22.240 --> 1:20:26.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I lost my yardage gun a few months ago,

1:20:26.760 --> 1:20:30.200
<v Speaker 1>and I'm sorry about that. Well, I to tell you

1:20:30.240 --> 1:20:33.760
<v Speaker 1>the truth, I've like really enjoyed playing golf without it,

1:20:33.960 --> 1:20:36.959
<v Speaker 1>Like especially when I got to new golf courses because.

1:20:36.880 --> 1:20:40.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't have one of those.

1:20:38.920 --> 1:20:40.479
<v Speaker 1>I get tricked all the time.

1:20:42.560 --> 1:20:44.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think one of the things that we could

1:20:44.360 --> 1:20:46.360
<v Speaker 2>do in the in the in the rules of golf

1:20:46.680 --> 1:20:48.600
<v Speaker 2>as we start to bring on this new ball or

1:20:48.640 --> 1:20:52.559
<v Speaker 2>whatever's going to happen with technology and distance, is it

1:20:52.600 --> 1:20:56.240
<v Speaker 2>is to allow or to try to promote you know, six,

1:20:56.360 --> 1:20:58.640
<v Speaker 2>six club, nine club something, you know twelve, you know,

1:20:58.640 --> 1:21:01.360
<v Speaker 2>eleven clubs, something other than four team. So you get

1:21:01.360 --> 1:21:04.200
<v Speaker 2>into the tweeter shots where you're actually hitting a seven

1:21:04.240 --> 1:21:06.519
<v Speaker 2>iron from one hundred and forty yards, And when you

1:21:06.560 --> 1:21:08.800
<v Speaker 2>start doing some of those things, those four bunkers really

1:21:08.840 --> 1:21:11.880
<v Speaker 2>become interesting and you actually use them because you know

1:21:11.960 --> 1:21:14.040
<v Speaker 2>why they're there. You just hit them over the top

1:21:14.040 --> 1:21:16.840
<v Speaker 2>of it and it runs it out. So I love

1:21:17.240 --> 1:21:19.240
<v Speaker 2>It's one of the things as a golfer, I try

1:21:19.280 --> 1:21:21.000
<v Speaker 2>to do more of it. You know, it's harder nowadays

1:21:21.000 --> 1:21:23.640
<v Speaker 2>because it's rare when well, I shouldn't say rare, but

1:21:23.720 --> 1:21:25.920
<v Speaker 2>it You know, a lot of golf courses don't well

1:21:26.000 --> 1:21:28.439
<v Speaker 2>for the runouts anymore. We're trying to get that change.

1:21:28.479 --> 1:21:32.439
<v Speaker 1>But anyway, yeah, I mean, you catch that backside of

1:21:32.439 --> 1:21:35.080
<v Speaker 1>a bunker that's twenty yards short and you get the

1:21:35.360 --> 1:21:38.640
<v Speaker 1>it's like a springboard that kicks it right to the greens.

1:21:38.800 --> 1:21:40.559
<v Speaker 1>That's one of the cool things I feel like has

1:21:40.600 --> 1:21:43.559
<v Speaker 1>been lost with the way the games changed in terms

1:21:43.600 --> 1:21:47.200
<v Speaker 1>of the aerial game, is that all these like especially

1:21:47.200 --> 1:21:49.280
<v Speaker 1>when you go to these Golden Age courses, all these

1:21:49.320 --> 1:21:52.000
<v Speaker 1>cool little slopes that are short of the green that

1:21:52.520 --> 1:21:55.840
<v Speaker 1>just don't get it used anymore, or if they haven't been,

1:21:56.040 --> 1:21:58.439
<v Speaker 1>you know, if the mo lines are off or just

1:21:58.479 --> 1:21:59.439
<v Speaker 1>sitting there and rough.

1:22:00.160 --> 1:22:02.439
<v Speaker 2>That's right. Well. One of the things that I feel

1:22:03.040 --> 1:22:06.080
<v Speaker 2>really proud about is the people that have opened their

1:22:06.120 --> 1:22:07.760
<v Speaker 2>minds to some of the features we did up at

1:22:07.800 --> 1:22:11.360
<v Speaker 2>Meadowbrook is that the guys that are guys and gals

1:22:11.360 --> 1:22:14.640
<v Speaker 2>that are struggling are are recovering around the greens like

1:22:14.680 --> 1:22:17.800
<v Speaker 2>they always do. Just a sandwich and try to get

1:22:17.840 --> 1:22:20.000
<v Speaker 2>it up and stop near the hole. But when you

1:22:20.040 --> 1:22:23.720
<v Speaker 2>start seeing the different you know, different backstops and the

1:22:23.880 --> 1:22:27.360
<v Speaker 2>places for it to feed down into different pins people.

1:22:27.720 --> 1:22:29.200
<v Speaker 2>You know. I had a guy the other day say, hey,

1:22:29.200 --> 1:22:32.120
<v Speaker 2>and you have played Meadowbrook last fall. You want you

1:22:32.120 --> 1:22:34.519
<v Speaker 2>want to know what I thought of it? So yeah, yeah,

1:22:34.560 --> 1:22:37.559
<v Speaker 2>of course, he says, I thought it was fun? Is

1:22:37.560 --> 1:22:39.200
<v Speaker 2>that what you? Is that? What you? Is that all right?

1:22:39.240 --> 1:22:41.759
<v Speaker 2>That I thought it was fun? I'm like, heck, yeah,

1:22:42.000 --> 1:22:44.920
<v Speaker 2>that's exactly right. And the guys who open their minds

1:22:44.960 --> 1:22:46.320
<v Speaker 2>of those types of shots are just fun.

1:22:46.960 --> 1:22:50.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a I mean, like I like to hit

1:22:50.680 --> 1:22:53.880
<v Speaker 1>like punch drivers on when I play a Burrit's hole

1:22:54.080 --> 1:22:56.040
<v Speaker 1>that's like a rainer now, just so I can see

1:22:56.040 --> 1:22:59.160
<v Speaker 1>the ball run through the dire yeah, and and run

1:22:59.240 --> 1:23:01.120
<v Speaker 1>up to the bat like a lot of times I

1:23:01.200 --> 1:23:05.360
<v Speaker 1>end up making a bogie because it's or but I

1:23:05.400 --> 1:23:07.600
<v Speaker 1>don't really care because like I have hockey with that.

1:23:07.680 --> 1:23:12.240
<v Speaker 2>If you played it, you tried it, absolutely better better.

1:23:12.360 --> 1:23:17.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's all right. Next, overrated underrated car paths.

1:23:19.840 --> 1:23:23.320
<v Speaker 2>Car pass Well, it's certainly not underrated. I'd call them overrated,

1:23:23.840 --> 1:23:25.640
<v Speaker 2>all right. I think you're I think you're finding a

1:23:25.640 --> 1:23:30.599
<v Speaker 2>lot more people being open to other alternatives. I think

1:23:30.640 --> 1:23:34.240
<v Speaker 2>people people get what we're what we're coming where we're

1:23:34.280 --> 1:23:37.400
<v Speaker 2>coming from from a design standpoint, more more than just

1:23:37.439 --> 1:23:40.320
<v Speaker 2>a few years ago. So I think that's certainly overrated,

1:23:40.360 --> 1:23:42.479
<v Speaker 2>and I think it's trending in the right direction.

1:23:43.400 --> 1:23:46.760
<v Speaker 1>I think my pet peeve, like the ultimate one that

1:23:47.200 --> 1:23:50.280
<v Speaker 1>bugs me the most is when you see a car

1:23:50.400 --> 1:23:53.920
<v Speaker 1>path at like a old school golf course that's running

1:23:53.920 --> 1:23:55.320
<v Speaker 1>down where the fairway should be.

1:23:57.080 --> 1:24:00.240
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's funny you mentioned that with what what

1:24:00.360 --> 1:24:03.360
<v Speaker 2>comes right to mind is one of the courses we

1:24:03.400 --> 1:24:07.360
<v Speaker 2>went to go visit in England was Swinley Forest, and

1:24:07.400 --> 1:24:09.479
<v Speaker 2>I guess I shouldn't pick on Swindley, but you know

1:24:09.479 --> 1:24:12.160
<v Speaker 2>a lot of those UK courses, they when you think

1:24:12.200 --> 1:24:16.040
<v Speaker 2>about how carpaths have evolved, they didn't have car pass

1:24:16.120 --> 1:24:18.720
<v Speaker 2>so then all of a sudden people started driving these

1:24:18.800 --> 1:24:21.280
<v Speaker 2>buggies and they all drove in the exact same spot,

1:24:22.040 --> 1:24:24.720
<v Speaker 2>and then they drove in a straight line. So oftentimes

1:24:24.720 --> 1:24:26.439
<v Speaker 2>they go right down the middle of the fairway. And

1:24:26.479 --> 1:24:28.439
<v Speaker 2>then what do you do next, Well, there's a path there,

1:24:28.479 --> 1:24:30.599
<v Speaker 2>we better put some paving, or it might better put

1:24:30.600 --> 1:24:33.200
<v Speaker 2>some gravel. As opposed to someone saying, you know what,

1:24:33.240 --> 1:24:34.800
<v Speaker 2>we don't want them to go there, we wanted to

1:24:34.800 --> 1:24:37.559
<v Speaker 2>go over here, so we don't see the path, and

1:24:37.600 --> 1:24:39.200
<v Speaker 2>so a lot of times you get to these old courses,

1:24:39.200 --> 1:24:42.080
<v Speaker 2>the car pass are in no different place than where

1:24:42.120 --> 1:24:44.599
<v Speaker 2>it was when they first got their first car pet,

1:24:44.720 --> 1:24:48.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, first golf carts, and so you know, the

1:24:49.320 --> 1:24:51.360
<v Speaker 2>one of our committee members said, yeah, and you talk

1:24:51.360 --> 1:24:52.880
<v Speaker 2>about car pass but look at this place. This is

1:24:52.880 --> 1:24:55.160
<v Speaker 2>a Swinley forest. They're right in the middle of the fairway.

1:24:55.680 --> 1:24:59.240
<v Speaker 2>So but I agree with you, the less you see

1:24:59.240 --> 1:25:00.720
<v Speaker 2>a car pass, better would it be.

1:25:01.160 --> 1:25:03.360
<v Speaker 1>I just was thinking about this as like, could you

1:25:03.400 --> 1:25:06.000
<v Speaker 1>go no car path but then just change like you know,

1:25:06.080 --> 1:25:09.439
<v Speaker 1>the signed and would that work or would that just

1:25:09.520 --> 1:25:12.920
<v Speaker 1>not work? You know, like I think it Yeah, never

1:25:13.240 --> 1:25:13.880
<v Speaker 1>would it work?

1:25:14.600 --> 1:25:17.240
<v Speaker 2>Well no, I mean it would work in some places.

1:25:17.240 --> 1:25:19.000
<v Speaker 2>But I mean the reason why there's car passes because

1:25:19.000 --> 1:25:21.400
<v Speaker 2>everyone drives in the same exact spot and it gets

1:25:21.439 --> 1:25:24.040
<v Speaker 2>compacted and it wears out the turf and then next

1:25:24.080 --> 1:25:26.120
<v Speaker 2>thing you know, it has a low spot and it

1:25:26.120 --> 1:25:30.960
<v Speaker 2>becomes mud. So you know, there's car pass for reasons

1:25:30.960 --> 1:25:33.000
<v Speaker 2>because we have a thing called a car path or

1:25:33.280 --> 1:25:36.440
<v Speaker 2>golf cart. So as long as we have golf carts,

1:25:36.560 --> 1:25:38.439
<v Speaker 2>there's going to have to be passed. And I think

1:25:38.479 --> 1:25:40.519
<v Speaker 2>if as long as we just you know, there's a

1:25:40.520 --> 1:25:42.760
<v Speaker 2>way to do them well, and I think we It's

1:25:42.800 --> 1:25:44.560
<v Speaker 2>one of the things we spend an examinant amount of

1:25:44.600 --> 1:25:47.679
<v Speaker 2>time thinking about, probably more than we'd like to. I'd

1:25:47.680 --> 1:25:50.639
<v Speaker 2>hoped one day not to do a golf project without

1:25:50.640 --> 1:25:51.120
<v Speaker 2>car pass.

1:25:51.560 --> 1:25:53.080
<v Speaker 1>Do you think it could work at a at a

1:25:53.200 --> 1:25:57.679
<v Speaker 1>community golf level, no car path, no carts golf course.

1:25:59.160 --> 1:26:02.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, you certainly could try. I think ultimately you're gonna

1:26:02.200 --> 1:26:04.559
<v Speaker 2>end up getting into something where everyone rides in the

1:26:04.600 --> 1:26:06.240
<v Speaker 2>exact same spot. You'd end up having to time.

1:26:06.280 --> 1:26:08.120
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying no carts completely.

1:26:08.760 --> 1:26:12.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, well, yeah, I could. I think there's got

1:26:12.720 --> 1:26:14.880
<v Speaker 2>to be a commitment to to kind of going back

1:26:14.880 --> 1:26:18.400
<v Speaker 2>to the the caddies and golf push carts to trolleys,

1:26:18.439 --> 1:26:20.760
<v Speaker 2>if you will. You know that that's the other thing too.

1:26:20.760 --> 1:26:24.240
<v Speaker 2>A pet peeve is this idea that that push carts

1:26:24.320 --> 1:26:28.320
<v Speaker 2>or trolleys are are munique golf, that they're not, they're

1:26:28.360 --> 1:26:31.240
<v Speaker 2>not worthy of the top clubs in the country, and

1:26:31.840 --> 1:26:33.760
<v Speaker 2>and that I think that it all kind of goes

1:26:33.800 --> 1:26:38.000
<v Speaker 2>to this erosion of of of the caddies and walking

1:26:38.080 --> 1:26:41.320
<v Speaker 2>and and you pushing your card, carrying your bag, those

1:26:41.360 --> 1:26:43.800
<v Speaker 2>types of things. So I think there have to be

1:26:43.800 --> 1:26:48.320
<v Speaker 2>a concerted effort to be more, to be more health

1:26:48.360 --> 1:26:51.040
<v Speaker 2>conscious and exercise and really utilize the fact of carrying

1:26:51.040 --> 1:26:53.080
<v Speaker 2>your bag is that I could workout. And that's what

1:26:53.120 --> 1:26:55.280
<v Speaker 2>the only workout I get these days is carrying my bag.

1:26:55.560 --> 1:26:58.040
<v Speaker 2>You got a cool little McKinsey bag. I just I'm

1:26:58.080 --> 1:27:00.400
<v Speaker 2>not almost always the only one walk and whenever everyone

1:27:00.400 --> 1:27:02.040
<v Speaker 2>else is on a golf cart and I'm like, well,

1:27:02.120 --> 1:27:04.680
<v Speaker 2>this is my exercise. Yeah.

1:27:04.840 --> 1:27:08.599
<v Speaker 1>I was really tired on my recent trip with Zach

1:27:08.680 --> 1:27:12.760
<v Speaker 1>through northern California, and you know, I played an exorbitant

1:27:12.760 --> 1:27:16.360
<v Speaker 1>amount of golf over a few days and and Zach's like,

1:27:16.400 --> 1:27:18.360
<v Speaker 1>he should just he should just ride. We were at

1:27:18.400 --> 1:27:20.960
<v Speaker 1>mont Ray Peninsula Club and I was like, you know, man,

1:27:21.080 --> 1:27:25.600
<v Speaker 1>I don't think I can. My my listeners would be

1:27:25.680 --> 1:27:28.280
<v Speaker 1>upset with me if I if they saw me riding

1:27:28.360 --> 1:27:31.559
<v Speaker 1>on a seaside course on a seventy degree day.

1:27:32.280 --> 1:27:34.360
<v Speaker 2>Here's a model that I think needs to be thought

1:27:34.400 --> 1:27:39.160
<v Speaker 2>of more. Is a golf cart with four, four or

1:27:39.200 --> 1:27:44.000
<v Speaker 2>five places for carts where the where someone drives it. Yeah,

1:27:44.040 --> 1:27:47.559
<v Speaker 2>and and and that way, you know, someone's not you know,

1:27:47.760 --> 1:27:50.400
<v Speaker 2>you're not using two or four caddies, and you got

1:27:50.400 --> 1:27:52.680
<v Speaker 2>a golf cart and then someone's driving it where they

1:27:52.680 --> 1:27:54.720
<v Speaker 2>are supposed to drive it. That's part of the reason

1:27:54.760 --> 1:27:56.559
<v Speaker 2>why golf carts you get in trouble is because you

1:27:56.600 --> 1:28:00.080
<v Speaker 2>just can't control where people drive carts these days to

1:28:00.160 --> 1:28:03.559
<v Speaker 2>drive them everywhere. So that's where you have these issues.

1:28:03.880 --> 1:28:06.400
<v Speaker 2>But I played a little part three course here. You know,

1:28:06.400 --> 1:28:09.080
<v Speaker 2>they funneled us right into a golf cart on a

1:28:09.080 --> 1:28:12.240
<v Speaker 2>Part three course and it was a four seater, and

1:28:12.240 --> 1:28:15.320
<v Speaker 2>my buddies were like, yeah, a force seater, and we

1:28:15.360 --> 1:28:17.000
<v Speaker 2>put all of our bags on there and I walked

1:28:17.640 --> 1:28:21.080
<v Speaker 2>alongside of them. And so I think we do have

1:28:21.240 --> 1:28:23.120
<v Speaker 2>an opportunity to kind of look outside the box. I

1:28:23.160 --> 1:28:24.880
<v Speaker 2>think if there's more of a concerted effort to do

1:28:24.960 --> 1:28:27.479
<v Speaker 2>something other than just ram everybody in cards, I think

1:28:27.880 --> 1:28:29.120
<v Speaker 2>I think there's things that can work.

1:28:29.840 --> 1:28:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Last overrated underrated music on the golf.

1:28:33.160 --> 1:28:39.479
<v Speaker 2>Course man totally underrated. I think I've never been You

1:28:39.520 --> 1:28:41.519
<v Speaker 2>would never have thought that that would have brought up

1:28:41.560 --> 1:28:47.000
<v Speaker 2>so many passionate feelings about whether or not loud music

1:28:47.000 --> 1:28:49.560
<v Speaker 2>on a courses is good or bad, you know, to me,

1:28:50.800 --> 1:28:52.800
<v Speaker 2>I love it. You know. Of course, it's a little

1:28:52.800 --> 1:28:54.479
<v Speaker 2>harder to be having music on the course when you

1:28:54.479 --> 1:28:57.479
<v Speaker 2>don't have a golf cart. You know, someone carrying a

1:28:57.479 --> 1:28:59.559
<v Speaker 2>speaker along with you is a little bit different, kind

1:28:59.560 --> 1:29:03.400
<v Speaker 2>of muffled in your bag. But headphones, I think it's

1:29:03.400 --> 1:29:05.360
<v Speaker 2>an integral part, and I think it's just a matter

1:29:05.360 --> 1:29:08.840
<v Speaker 2>of time before we start to see it everywhere. Yeah, I.

1:29:10.320 --> 1:29:11.240
<v Speaker 1>What do you listen to?

1:29:12.720 --> 1:29:15.680
<v Speaker 2>What music do I listen to? Yeah? What would be

1:29:15.720 --> 1:29:19.479
<v Speaker 2>your goat? You know, I'm still on the twenty one

1:29:19.479 --> 1:29:22.559
<v Speaker 2>pilots recently, so I can't get off of that. But

1:29:22.600 --> 1:29:25.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm an eighties guy. So I go back to YouTube,

1:29:26.680 --> 1:29:30.680
<v Speaker 2>I go back to Midnight Oil. That's a not a

1:29:30.720 --> 1:29:31.120
<v Speaker 2>good one.

1:29:33.560 --> 1:29:34.320
<v Speaker 1>Chili Peppers.

1:29:35.320 --> 1:29:35.600
<v Speaker 2>What's that?

1:29:35.840 --> 1:29:39.200
<v Speaker 1>It's chili peppers? Your time there coming up?

1:29:39.280 --> 1:29:42.320
<v Speaker 2>Right? Yeah, I like chili peppers. That's not a not

1:29:42.360 --> 1:29:44.240
<v Speaker 2>a go to, but it's definitely in my music list.

1:29:45.160 --> 1:29:49.439
<v Speaker 1>That's hey, the eighties. Yeah, I've always wanted I got

1:29:49.439 --> 1:29:52.680
<v Speaker 1>to do an architect comparison to bands from like the

1:29:52.720 --> 1:29:53.479
<v Speaker 1>Golden Age.

1:29:54.040 --> 1:29:56.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, one of the things that I that

1:29:56.120 --> 1:29:58.920
<v Speaker 2>I think is so I was at a conference through

1:29:58.960 --> 1:30:02.280
<v Speaker 2>Marriotte Golf the other day, and so I was a

1:30:02.320 --> 1:30:04.639
<v Speaker 2>speaker on one of their panels, and every time one

1:30:04.680 --> 1:30:07.439
<v Speaker 2>of their guys got up on stage, they picked their

1:30:07.479 --> 1:30:12.120
<v Speaker 2>own entrance music. And I'm like, that is awesome, and

1:30:12.160 --> 1:30:14.800
<v Speaker 2>it's like, we don't have we have so many opportunities

1:30:14.880 --> 1:30:17.280
<v Speaker 2>to make our to create our own entrance music. Why

1:30:17.280 --> 1:30:19.000
<v Speaker 2>don't we do that? So I was thinking the next

1:30:19.080 --> 1:30:21.040
<v Speaker 2>interview that I have, I was gonna try to figure

1:30:21.040 --> 1:30:23.760
<v Speaker 2>out how to play and you know, enter Sandman from

1:30:23.760 --> 1:30:25.800
<v Speaker 2>Metallica or something like that is my entrance music.

1:30:26.040 --> 1:30:28.240
<v Speaker 1>The PGA tours doing it at Zurich.

1:30:28.360 --> 1:30:30.320
<v Speaker 2>Now there it is. Yeah, se.

1:30:31.760 --> 1:30:36.400
<v Speaker 1>Becoming more and more prevalent. So hey, Andy, thanks so

1:30:36.479 --> 1:30:39.639
<v Speaker 1>much for your time. It's been a good talk, and

1:30:39.720 --> 1:30:41.800
<v Speaker 1>we'll have to have you on again, all.

1:30:41.760 --> 1:30:45.120
<v Speaker 2>Right, anytime. Man. I enjoy what you're doing. You're doing

1:30:45.160 --> 1:30:47.080
<v Speaker 2>it the right way, I think, and I'm honored to

1:30:47.080 --> 1:30:48.280
<v Speaker 2>be a part of it. So thanks again.

1:30:49.120 --> 1:30:51.680
<v Speaker 1>You've been listening to the fried Egg podcast.

1:30:52.120 --> 1:30:53.680
<v Speaker 2>We do the digging for you.