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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.

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Speaker 1: Today I am joined by golf course architect Andy Staples.

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Speaker 1: Andy is a young, up and coming architect who has

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Speaker 1: designed courses such as Meadowbrook Country Club, sand Hollow and

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Speaker 1: Rock One Community Links. Our discussion jumps right into a

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Speaker 1: talk on municipal golf, or as Andy likes to call it,

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Speaker 1: community golf, and then we divulge into his renovation of Meadowbrook,

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Speaker 1: Willie Park Junior and much more. Thanks for all the

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Speaker 1: ongoing support and for tuning in, and if you haven't yet,

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Speaker 1: please rate and review the podcast and iTunes and subscribe

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Speaker 1: if you don't already, Here's Andy Staples.

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Speaker 2: I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When

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Speaker 2: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a frid Egg

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Speaker 2: Friday Egg, the drided Friday, Frida Egg, Frida Egg Egg

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Speaker 2: Frida Egg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run

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Speaker 2: off the golf course. How did I get roped into

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Speaker 2: them uni golf? Yeah? I love it well. I would

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Speaker 2: tell you that themuni sector in our business was where

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Speaker 2: a lot of the blue collar architects would play for

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Speaker 2: a lot of years, I think maybe still today. And

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Speaker 2: you know, we didn't get the calls from the top

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Speaker 2: clubs when I first got in the business, so I

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Speaker 2: ended up seeing a lot of that side. So I

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Speaker 2: responded to a lot of our fps, you know, really

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Speaker 2: as long as I've been in the business, and so

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Speaker 2: it was somewhat natural to me. But it was always

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Speaker 2: known as this you faction of the business that you're like, well,

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Speaker 2: one day we might graduate and not have to do this.

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Speaker 2: And and then the recession hit and the MUNI sector

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Speaker 2: was hit as hard as anybody, and and I felt

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Speaker 2: like it was something that was that was real to

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Speaker 2: me and understood and and and then on top of that,

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Speaker 2: it just felt you know, innovation in golf is not

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Speaker 2: a word you hear a lot of, maybe in the

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Speaker 2: equipment side, but not on the development side. And so

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Speaker 2: I felt that there was some room for innovation. And

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Speaker 2: I kind of I didn't like the word municipal, and

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Speaker 2: I thought community was a lot better word. And I said,

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Speaker 2: you know what I think this is this is a

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Speaker 2: place for innovation and a place to make a mark.

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Speaker 2: And I thought it was also a place that a

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Speaker 2: lot of my competitors weren't. It was upon that they

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Speaker 2: weren't fishing in and and uh so I went full

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Speaker 2: board and lo and behold, I find myself being pretty

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Speaker 2: successful in front of a large group and comfortable in

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Speaker 2: front of a large group and been able to kind

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Speaker 2: of bring people onto the side of golf. And it

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Speaker 2: just has been something that I've stuck with and I

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Speaker 2: think I'm passionate about it. And I think it's the

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Speaker 2: value of a golf course in a community is not

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Speaker 2: something that is really well thought of, and I think

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Speaker 2: we should be thinking more of it as a value.

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Speaker 2: And it's been kind of a mission of mine to

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Speaker 2: stick with it.

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Speaker 1: That's kind of what I see too, is like something

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Speaker 1: that fascinates me is how many of my podcast guests

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Speaker 1: grew up playing municipal golf like and how many of

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Speaker 1: the people that get into the golf industry are grew

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Speaker 1: up playing munique golf. And I mean it's so vital,

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Speaker 1: Like I grew up playing Muni golf like without munich golf,

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Speaker 1: you you know, the if you want to talk about

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Speaker 1: growing the game, like if you didn't, if Muni golf

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Speaker 1: keeps closing and on its pace that it is now

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Speaker 1: like you're not going to have a game without it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think if you go back to the history

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Speaker 2: of why municipal golf even started, go back to you know,

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Speaker 2: Van Cortland Golf Course, the first municipally owned golf course

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Speaker 2: in the country. It was it was a place for

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Speaker 2: you know, the growing middle class that had some expendable

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Speaker 2: income that couldn't afford to join a private club. They

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Speaker 2: went down to the local municipal golf course. So I

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Speaker 2: think it's you know, people don't realize that the reason

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Speaker 2: why golf is the way that it is and the

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Speaker 2: way that it was able to expand to the heights

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Speaker 2: that it got expanded to, was because of municipal golf,

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Speaker 2: or at least in part because municipal golf. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: was the same way. I grew up at a plan

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Speaker 2: at a place called Wanaki and outside of Milwaukee was

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Speaker 2: in Wisconsin Winak golf course. It was a county Ushak

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Speaker 2: County golf course, and I would meet my buddies down

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Speaker 2: there after school and and we play on the weekends.

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Speaker 2: It was the same thing. You know, four dollars or

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Speaker 2: five dollars for somebody under sixteen, and you know, it's

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Speaker 2: easy for the parents to drop us all off. So

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Speaker 2: it was Yeah, I think municipal golf means a lot

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Speaker 2: to a lot of golfers. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 2: in today's world, we're municipal golf is taking such a

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Speaker 2: kind of a such a back seat and kind of

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Speaker 2: a getting abused and in the media whether or not

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Speaker 2: municipal municipalities should be in the golf business, and I

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Speaker 2: contend that it should.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I I don't know, it frustrates me

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Speaker 1: because those courses were built kind of seemingly all at

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Speaker 1: like a really bad time. So they, you know, for

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Speaker 1: the most part of municipal golf courses like the least

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Speaker 1: innovative golf course that you'll see. It's you know, they're

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Speaker 1: pretty cookie cutter and pretty unimaginative. And I think if

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Speaker 1: they at the time when they were built, golf was

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Speaker 1: so exclusive and they're missing the inclusive nature of a

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Speaker 1: of a community course.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, a lot of those a lot of those

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Speaker 2: courses are integrated in to the fabric of the county

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Speaker 2: or city park system, so I think it was just

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Speaker 2: kind of part and parcel. You'd have open space, you'd

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Speaker 2: have trails, you'd have camping, you'd have maybe a lake

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Speaker 2: or something, and then you have a golf course. So

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Speaker 2: it's the inclusivity of golf and the community nature of

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Speaker 2: golf has been there, and I think, I think I'm

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Speaker 2: one to believe that the community golf is at the

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Speaker 2: very beginning of a complete revitalization. And I don't I'm

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Speaker 2: not quitting that with all kinds of people playing golf,

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Speaker 2: but the golf course, municipal golf course industry, I think

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Speaker 2: is just prime for a pivot, and there's just too

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Speaker 2: many of them out there, and there's too many success

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Speaker 2: stories and too many good models that are being followed

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Speaker 2: today that I think it's just at the beginning of

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Speaker 2: a new awareness of golf. What I like to call

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Speaker 2: community golf. I'd rather not call it municipal golf anymore,

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Speaker 2: because I think we all think of that as a

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Speaker 2: negative term. Because you can't have a great, you know,

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Speaker 2: really interesting, strategic golf course and turns people through and

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Speaker 2: maintain for reasonable budget, reasonable budget.

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Speaker 1: It seems like that a better, more well designed golf

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Speaker 1: course would be way more beneficial for a community because

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Speaker 1: you'd be able to get people around it faster, they'd

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Speaker 1: have more fun, and it'd be more beginner friendly, while

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Speaker 1: it'd be way more interesting for an expert player.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's what's business right now, is what

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Speaker 2: exactly is the right balance of strategy and heroic design.

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Speaker 2: And some might call it. You know, we went through

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Speaker 2: a period of penal design, balancing the right level of

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Speaker 2: challenge with with just letting people have fun and play

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Speaker 2: the game. And I think that, you know, when I

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Speaker 2: was brought to the game, I actually learned on a

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Speaker 2: bill Langford Golf Course, Langford More Golf Course, West Bend

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Speaker 2: Country Club, a little blue collar club out suburbs of Milwaukee,

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Speaker 2: and I remember hitting into these big, huge grass features

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Speaker 2: I was I think I started at seven eight seven,

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Speaker 2: eight years old, and by the time I was ten,

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Speaker 2: I still couldn't get out of these things. I would

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Speaker 2: ricochet off the grass bass and I remember thinking, gosh,

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Speaker 2: I better practice, I better get better at this. This

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Speaker 2: is this isn't an easy game. And so I think

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Speaker 2: there's a peer there's a part of that that we

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Speaker 2: all as golfers liked the challenge. But I think that

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Speaker 2: there's ways I think we went overboard. I think there's

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Speaker 2: a there's a way to balance the challenge and the

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Speaker 2: strategy and the interest to truly kind of defend the

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Speaker 2: course against a better player, but let people play through

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Speaker 2: it in a reasonable amount of time. So definitely an opportunity.

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Speaker 1: You grew up playing golf, and did you play in

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Speaker 1: high school?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I played in high school. I was on the

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Speaker 2: high school team. I was on the state championship team. Actually,

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Speaker 2: I guess maybe claim to fame. I played with Mark Wilson,

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Speaker 2: the tour pro. He and I were He was a freshman,

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Speaker 2: I was a senior. We won state, and I actually

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Speaker 2: had thoughts of trying to play golf in college one

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Speaker 2: day and I realized that probably wasn't gonna happened. I

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Speaker 2: got in front of that kind of competition and realized

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Speaker 2: that that that's when you get separated, right. I had

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Speaker 2: a better chance of drawing pictures of a golf course

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Speaker 2: one day as opposed to playing them for a living.

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Speaker 1: So you went to school and you studied. You wanted

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Speaker 1: to be a golf course architect from you know, the

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Speaker 1: day you stepped out of school.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So when I I was practicing every day. I

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Speaker 2: got the bug when I was when I was a

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Speaker 2: kid through high school, and my dad saw the level

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Speaker 2: of interest and I actually started building my own golf

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Speaker 2: course out of a sand beach in northern Wisconsin, and

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Speaker 2: my dad saw me tending to it every weekend and

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Speaker 2: he said, you know, you know, son, the people designed

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Speaker 2: golf courses for a living. And that was the time,

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Speaker 2: I think it was around twelve. I was like, that

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Speaker 2: just blew my mind. I had no idea that that

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Speaker 2: was even possible. I thought golf courses just appeared. And

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Speaker 2: at that point I said, well, how do I do that?

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Speaker 2: And of course my dad said that I don't know,

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Speaker 2: and so he did some calling around and told me

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Speaker 2: that I should go study. You know, the idea at

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Speaker 2: the time was to go study landscape architecture in school,

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Speaker 2: and so I said, right then, I'm going to go

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Speaker 2: to school study landscape architecture. So as soon as I

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Speaker 2: got into school, you know, everybody was trying to in

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Speaker 2: my department of building buildings or designing parks or you know,

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Speaker 2: working in urban planning, and I was the lone golf

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Speaker 2: course guy, you know, at the University of Arkansas is

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Speaker 2: where I went. So that was a team that I

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Speaker 2: tried to walk on the golf team, but realized that

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Speaker 2: you know, the coach at the time, said, He asked

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Speaker 2: me what I was studying, and I said, I'm studying

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Speaker 2: landscape architecture. I want to be a golf course architect.

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Speaker 2: When I grew up, he says, well, you realize that

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Speaker 2: you either play golf or study architecture. You don't do

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Speaker 2: both here. I'm okay, Well that's a pretty clear that's

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Speaker 2: an easy decision for me. So, yeah, they were about

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Speaker 2: twelve years old that there was such a thing and

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Speaker 2: that that's what I wanted to do. I feel very

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Speaker 2: fortunate for that.

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Speaker 1: That's neat. I always think back to my childhood and

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Speaker 1: I remember there was a Microsoft game golf game that

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Speaker 1: you could design your own golf course, and I would

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Speaker 1: do that all the time. And and and then my

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Speaker 1: buddy and I would play whiffletball in our in our street,

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Speaker 1: in our front yards, and we, you know, essentially designed

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Speaker 1: golf holes in our own way, playing from tree to tree.

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Speaker 1: Amazing the imagination of a of a kid. I bet

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Speaker 1: your your philosophies of golf course design have changed a

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Speaker 1: little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I of course did the same thing, hitting

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Speaker 2: off trees, and you know, I had a sand green.

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Speaker 2: So this was a little cup in my little sand green.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I remember the first time, you know, this Winachy,

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Speaker 2: this county course I was telling you about, had a

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Speaker 2: bunch of hanging lakes. So you would go up over

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Speaker 2: a ridge and you'd hit it over the top of

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Speaker 2: the ridge, and then you'd come to the top and

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Speaker 2: realized there was a pond there. You're like, shoot, there's

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Speaker 2: a blind to sit in the water. I couldn't see

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Speaker 2: it was a blind lake, right, and so me as

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Speaker 2: a young golfer, well, I should have known that there

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Speaker 2: was a laser, should have been able to see through

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Speaker 2: that ridge. Well, the first time I realized that somebody

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Speaker 2: actually placed the lake there, as a designer, it started that,

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Speaker 2: you know, things started to go off in my mind,

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Speaker 2: like why in the world would you put it there? Then,

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Speaker 2: of course now you're blaming the designer, not not your

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Speaker 2: own game, of course. But yeah, it's certainly changed and

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Speaker 2: involved as you educate yourself through the business and through

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Speaker 2: the through through time for sure.

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Speaker 1: So after you get out of school, where'd you go work?

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Speaker 1: Right off the how'd you get kind of into the

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Speaker 1: architecture industry? I imagine it being somebody that came out

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Speaker 1: in the nineties.

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Speaker 2: It was booming yeah, So, yeah, I started working. I

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Speaker 2: had a mentor through school. We did a it's part

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Speaker 2: of my thesis. I did a design of a golf

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Speaker 2: course on top of a landfill. And I worked with

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Speaker 2: a guy named Jerry Slack out of Tulsa, which was

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Speaker 2: a He was more of a land planner. He was

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Speaker 2: a golf course architect on his own right. But he

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Speaker 2: was the one that said, if you really want to

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Speaker 2: start in this business, go work in construction. So this

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Speaker 2: was probably a nineteen ninety three ninety four, and so

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Speaker 2: my first my first job was really working with Wadsworth

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Speaker 2: Golf Construction. I started up in Green Bay, Wisconsin and

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Speaker 2: then down to Texas, and so really my entree to

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Speaker 2: the business was through the construction world. And then Jerry,

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Speaker 2: once he saw that I had kind of followed his

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Speaker 2: kind of his path, his preferred path, he hired me

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Speaker 2: to become a draftsman. So I was drawing. My first

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Speaker 2: job was drawing plans by hand. It was before we

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Speaker 2: had CAD or any type of computer. I remember helping

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Speaker 2: him through the first computer we bought to try to

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Speaker 2: get CAD in the office. But so that was in Tulsa.

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Speaker 2: That's how I kind of broke in the business. So

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Speaker 2: I like to say that I wouldn't have gotten that

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Speaker 2: job had it not started on the construction side.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense. I mean back then, construction was like

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Speaker 1: the thing I mean was a golf course a day

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Speaker 1: that everybody was saying that America needed to build to

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Speaker 1: keep up with the pace of the growing game.

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Speaker 2: That's right. The NGF said, golf course today, and we tried.

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Speaker 2: We definitely tried for a while. We were doing what

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Speaker 2: one year, we did five hundred golf courses in a year.

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Speaker 1: I mean it goes back to the you know, current state.

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Speaker 1: Everybody associates golf courses closing with bad, but you know,

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Speaker 1: in muni's closing with bad. But I think part of

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Speaker 1: it is just a market normalizing to what it should be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to that.

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Speaker 2: I you know, the the idea that we were building

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Speaker 2: that kind of that kind of quantity over that short

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Speaker 2: period of time is really now looking back, and I'm

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Speaker 2: pretty mind blowing that that it even was was possible.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm a firm believer. But it's one of

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Speaker 2: my messages was as I talked to the municipal sector

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Speaker 2: that that I talked to is that, you know what,

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Speaker 2: closing your golf course is a real is a real option.

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Speaker 2: So let's let's talk about that for a second. You know,

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Speaker 2: before we even go any further about improving your course,

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Speaker 2: let's talk about is there support for the course and

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Speaker 2: whether it should stay open. So I'm I'm one that

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Speaker 2: certainly is not a not against any closures because there's

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Speaker 2: a reason for why those those courses aren't making it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I agree.

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Speaker 1: I think there's there's courses that should close, and there's

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Speaker 1: courses that shouldn't close. And I think, you know, there

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Speaker 1: needs to be some sort of at some point in

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Speaker 1: the near future, some sort of initiative from the us

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Speaker 1: GA to you know, use some of their money to

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Speaker 1: support the ones that really shouldn't close. And and and

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Speaker 1: that's that's what bugs me is like some of these,

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Speaker 1: like you're familiar with Detroit area, but like that Rackham

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Speaker 1: course that was on the brink of closing, Like that's

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Speaker 1: a course that you know, a ton of history, Donald

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Speaker 1: Ross design, it's it's tied very closely to the city.

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Speaker 1: That's that's a course that shouldn't close. It might need

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Speaker 1: to be a little bit different of a concept than

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Speaker 1: it is currently and have a little bit forward thinking concepts.

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Speaker 1: But that's a golf course that that should be helped

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Speaker 1: and subsidized from Golf's governing body. Do you, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what do you what do you think about the U

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Speaker 1: s g A and and mini golf community.

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Speaker 2: Golf community is here, right, So what do I think

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Speaker 2: Do I think the USGA should be the one to

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Speaker 2: step up into that? I think at the I don't

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Speaker 2: think we're there at that point. I don't know that

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Speaker 2: the municipal sector would is positioned right to be able

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Speaker 2: to take those kind of funds. It's like, you know,

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Speaker 2: the stimulus dollars just a couple of years ago, right, So,

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Speaker 2: you know, I understand trying to kick start an industry

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Speaker 2: and and finding maybe some showcase properties that make some sense.

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Speaker 2: And to be honest, I mean that the way they've

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Speaker 2: showcased it is around their Open Championship. That's that's been

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Speaker 2: the way you know, they've brought it to the public sector.

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Speaker 2: They've they brought the you know, the US Open you know,

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Speaker 2: rotation or courses to try to get you know, the

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Speaker 2: golf under a certain you know message that it's open

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Speaker 2: to the public. But you know, in terms of putting

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Speaker 2: money towards municipalities. And you talk about Rackham, I mean,

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Speaker 2: you got some other issues there with Rackham that you know,

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Speaker 2: and it's not necessarily unique to the City of Detroit.

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Speaker 2: It's unique to just this idea that the backing and

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Speaker 2: the ability to support public golf. There's not enough people

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Speaker 2: at the highest levels of their government that support golf,

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Speaker 2: and so I think unproper support. And the city has

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Speaker 2: the ability more times than not to support and subsidize golf.

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Speaker 2: It's just they're choosing not to because of the messaging

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Speaker 2: that's happening about the negativity towards golf. But when you

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Speaker 2: start thinking about all the people that actually have a

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Speaker 2: chance to visit a golf course, and that's one of

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Speaker 2: my messages to my community golf messages that it needs

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Speaker 2: to expand the user group so that it's not just

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Speaker 2: about the ten percent to play golf, that it's more

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Speaker 2: about walking trails and outdoor activities and you know, any

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Speaker 2: type of use. You know, it's not necessarily a clubhouse anymore,

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Speaker 2: it's more of a community building. Yeah, if you start

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Speaker 2: to pivot on those types of messaging messages, I think

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Speaker 2: the USGA's role can help support that. But I think

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Speaker 2: if we look to them to try to save municipal golf,

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Speaker 2: I don't know that I agree with that, but there's

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Speaker 2: certainly a powerful message there that needs to be in

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Speaker 2: support of municipal golf.

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Speaker 1: So getting into your community golf and on your website

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Speaker 1: you've got just great resources, white paper and different things

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Speaker 1: about you know, the way your kind of philosophy on

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Speaker 1: what community golf should be. And I think what you

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Speaker 1: said about inclusive is such a big deal. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're it's almost more of a model that you would

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Speaker 1: see in England and Scotland and Ireland than what the

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Speaker 1: traditional community or municipal community golf is in America.

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Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, Yeah. I think it's funny how many people

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Speaker 2: when I get in front of the municipal stakeholders and

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Speaker 2: tell them about the old course at Saint Andrews and

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Speaker 2: the fact that it closes down on Sunday and becomes

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Speaker 2: a park, people can walk across the entire golf course

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Speaker 2: and property. They're blown away. They're like, I can't believe

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Speaker 2: that we love walking on golf courses. We should consider that, right,

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Speaker 2: And so, you know, it's funny how when you go

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Speaker 2: to when you go throughout the world. You know, I studied,

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Speaker 2: I studied in Denmark for a semester and I actually

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Speaker 2: I actually or the study focus was on urban planning,

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Speaker 2: but we had a chance to go out to all

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Speaker 2: kinds of park plans and we studied throughout Scandinavia, including

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Speaker 2: Stockholm and Sweden. And there was a a specific because

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Speaker 2: it was part of my study, there was a specific

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Speaker 2: park property called Woodland Cemetery. It was this broad open space.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't a golf course, it was a cemetery, but

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Speaker 2: it basically felt like a golf course, and you would

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Speaker 2: go through a series of trails and transitions from space

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Speaker 2: to space. There was there was chapels, there was auditoriums,

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Speaker 2: there were crematory as. There was open space too to

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Speaker 2: be outside in nature. And I think when you people

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Speaker 2: are drawn to that kind of experience, and for us

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Speaker 2: as golfers, we happen to do that. We actually experience

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Speaker 2: an open space with a with a stick and a

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Speaker 2: ball in our in our in our possession. And so

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Speaker 2: to me, when you just start to think about the

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Speaker 2: innate characteristics of being outside and playing sport, you know, golf,

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Speaker 2: golf falls right in line with all of those things

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Speaker 2: I think that we are drawn to and you know,

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Speaker 2: so now it just tells me it's a messaging issue.

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Speaker 2: It's it's how are we presenting it? And we should

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Speaker 2: be presenting it not necessarily across the board. I understand that,

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Speaker 2: you know, golf has many different faces, but but from

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Speaker 2: these particular community golf courses, they need to be presented

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Speaker 2: and the messaging needs to be proper and needs to

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Speaker 2: start from the very beginning, on the very top of government.

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Speaker 2: And so I think, I think we just need to

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Speaker 2: we have a we have a marketing and a messaging

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Speaker 2: issue as much as anything.

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Speaker 1: It's funny when you're thinking about just thinking while you're talking,

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Speaker 1: like something that just sticks out to me that's so

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Speaker 1: so simple that no, like barely any courses in America do,

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Speaker 1: is like why can't my dog come with me? Like

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Speaker 1: you know how much easier it would be if you

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Speaker 1: could take your dog out? Like do you know how

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Speaker 1: much easier it would be for me to get my

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Speaker 1: wife out if our dog could come? Like you know,

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Speaker 1: it all of a sudden becomes more than you know,

403
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Speaker 1: You're you're spending time outside in a beautiful place. You

404
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Speaker 1: know it goes back to the landscape architecture, like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's so much you know, you can do with a

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Speaker 1: beautiful green space, a big beautiful green space. And so

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Speaker 1: your kind of rock Wind Links was, was is your

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Speaker 1: big calling card for a community golf It explained to

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about you know, rock Wind as

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Speaker 1: a golf course but also a community center.

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Speaker 2: Sure. So rock Wind Community Links is in Hobbs, New Mexico.

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Speaker 2: It was it was host of an old military golf

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Speaker 2: course built in the forties. They did training sessions on

414
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Speaker 2: the property right next they were housing a military personnel

415
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Speaker 2: on the property they converted to a golf course and

416
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Speaker 2: it was just I guess you could say it was

417
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Speaker 2: poorly built. And then on top of that, it was

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Speaker 2: on a piece of rock. It's you know, rock Wind.

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Speaker 2: They called it the rock Callichi Rock. So it was

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Speaker 2: it was a typical municipally on golf course that was,

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Speaker 2: you know, deteriorating in front of everyone's eyes. They needed a

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00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 2: new irrigation. They they had hard time, you know, having

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00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 2: any quality turf. The soil wasn't great, and they kept

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00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 2: coming up to the to the council to say, hey,

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Speaker 2: we need to start putting some improvements to this, and

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Speaker 2: each time, you know, they kept it wasn't as if

427
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Speaker 2: they were saying no, but they said that there was

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Speaker 2: higher priorities before we started improving the golf course. So

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Speaker 2: when I was introduced to the club, I was actually

430
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Speaker 2: hired to do a little part three course. They wanted

431
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Speaker 2: to do an assessment to say, hey, we see a

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Speaker 2: lot of these beginner courses starting to say we have

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Speaker 2: an eighteen hole golf course. We have a kind of

434
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,439
Speaker 2: sort of a driving range. It wasn't great at a

435
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: net at the back of it was really short, but hey,

436
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 2: let's talk about putting a short course. So part of

437
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 2: you know, my initial plan was just to build a

438
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 2: little nine hole, twelve hole part three course. And I said, well, guys,

439
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 2: did you think about this, you know, because it was

440
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,880
Speaker 2: really disconnected and went through a bunch of different ideas.

441
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: I said, well, actually, what we need to be thinking

442
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 2: about is broadly, how is this facility attracting golfers and

443
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 2: training them and transitioning them from the beginnings through on

444
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 2: to the serious golfer. And I presented them the community

445
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 2: links concept. I said, this is it isn't just about golfers. Anymore.

446
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 2: Now we'll talk about developing people through life and family

447
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 2: and those types of things. And the city manager at

448
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 2: the time was listening to me and he's like, you

449
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 2: know what, that's interesting. I can I can sell that

450
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 2: and my my council will buy into that. So we

451
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: went in front of council, said this is what we're thinking.

452
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 2: And it turned from you know, a sim irrigation project

453
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: or a part three course, to now the golf course

454
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 2: becoming a central component of their entire community. That Hobbs

455
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,919
Speaker 2: is oil and gas driven, so timing is everything. They

456
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 2: were seeing oil prices on the rise at the time

457
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 2: and in a very pro golf mayor and a couple

458
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 2: of people on the council that played golf. Not everybody,

459
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: but a couple. So when we went in front of

460
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 2: them and said, hey, before we go any farther, we

461
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 2: want to see if you're if you're interested in this,

462
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 2: and we're really proud to say that every time we

463
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: went in front of council with what we tried to do,

464
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: we got seven to zero votes in favor that this

465
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 2: golf course should become a central part of the city

466
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 2: plan and it and and that this idea that we're

467
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,239
Speaker 2: going to diversify the user group to attract more than

468
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 2: just golfers. Was tangible. They saw that, So we have

469
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: a trail system. We've got an open We built a

470
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: five acre affluent water storage that the golf course here

471
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 2: uses for irrigation, which then has an open space adjacent

472
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: to it. So if the trail system connects through the

473
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: through the clubhouse, community center area and then has a

474
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: spot where where golfers non golfers can actually watch people

475
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: play golf. There's a par three real close across the water,

476
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: so they can sit on a little seat wall. There's

477
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 2: a nice big open green space next to the range,

478
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: so that we have you know, kids programs. SNAG golf

479
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: is a big part of what they do. SNAG is

480
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 2: now in all their schools as a part of this project.

481
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 2: The community college plays there, so you know, they have

482
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 2: expandable outdoor event areas, so they put on symphonies and

483
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: you know this in Hobbes, this is this was the

484
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 2: basically the middle of the city. Now everything happens at

485
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: their golf course. And it couldn't have come together any better.

486
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 2: We had support from everybody across UH there, their level

487
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: of government, government and uh. And speaking of the us J,

488
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 2: they've they've now they've labeled it as the model MUNI

489
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 2: if you will, for others to look at.

490
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people like you go in

491
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: and say, hey, like, you know, let's fix this golf

492
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: course up. Let's you know, make it this and this

493
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: and this, so this this course you know needed obviously irrigation,

494
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: which is a big and it's a good timing piece

495
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,479
Speaker 1: for doing a project. But in terms of economics, like

496
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, how can how can IMMUNI look at this

497
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,959
Speaker 1: and say we're gonna we're it's not going to crush

498
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: our bottom line with with the project.

499
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 2: That's that's the biggest question. I guess like, okay, well

500
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 2: great you did that at rock winn There's no way

501
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 2: we can do that here. And I always turn around

502
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 2: say are you sure that you can't? So you know,

503
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 2: most every city is making some pretty major investments in

504
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 2: the quality of life, and so to me, it's about

505
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: understanding what's important. And so the very first thing is

506
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: is a is a marketing and a messaging issue that

507
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: that I'll stand in front of the council and I'll say, okay,

508
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: who here plays golf? And more than likely one or

509
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 2: two out of seven or nine will raise their hand.

510
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,919
Speaker 2: I said, okay, well who here has played golf? And

511
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 2: then a couple more people raise the hand, and so

512
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 2: to me, I immediately go back to the discussion that

513
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: if if we don't understand the value of what this

514
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: golf course could mean to the city or for the

515
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 2: minispet or the area, the community, the county, then we

516
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 2: shouldn't even be talking about anything. I would tell you

517
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 2: that you should be considering closing this golf course. And

518
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: then of course everyone's like, no, we can't close this

519
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: golf course. You know, well, you know, we have a

520
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 2: lot of people to play golf here. We'll ultimately only have,

521
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: you know, a few thousand rounds a year. And so

522
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: I start to say, let's start building pride. So that's

523
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 2: number one is messaging and support of golf. And then

524
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 2: almost always there are practice facilities, short tees, you know,

525
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 2: open space that you can carve out. It's really challenging

526
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 2: this idea that an eighteen hole regulation course is what's

527
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 2: right for for cities across the country. So not every

528
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,719
Speaker 2: golf course needs to be seven thousand yards sixty two

529
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 2: hundred yard golf courses just fine for a lot of people.

530
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: So we look at kind of carving out spaces within

531
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 2: the space to be able to do that. And then

532
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 2: I also I talk about it in terms of a roadmap,

533
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: So this isn't going to happen over a short doesn't

534
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: always have to happen over a short period of time.

535
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 2: It just needs to be the messaging needs to be accurate,

536
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 2: It needs to be repeated over and over and then

537
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 2: implemented at the pace that you guys feel is appropriate

538
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 2: for funding. But if you're not going to fund it,

539
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 2: then I would just tell you that you consider closing it.

540
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like they got to get behind it

541
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: or get out.

542
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

543
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: And I think differentiation to me is something that always

544
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: sticks out too, is that I've been dealing with this

545
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: a little bit with the course I grew up playing,

546
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: is thinking about closing, and you look at the landscape

547
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: and they're all the same golf course that were built

548
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: in the same period, and this just row of everything

549
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: around it, and it's it's just like, of course, then

550
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, it becomes price is the thing

551
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: that you compete on because you're no different than everything else.

552
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: I I wholeheartedly agree that that that in order for

553
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: community golf to be successful, it has to be able

554
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: to provide something that not not anyone else is providing.

555
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: So if you look around your golf landscape, you need

556
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 2: to find what it is that you know that that

557
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: that that the private business isn't isn't providing or doesn't

558
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: want to provide. So that's where these these short courses,

559
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: that's where the practice facilities and driving range concepts. That's

560
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: why top golf, I think, is becoming so so popular.

561
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: It's it's it's providing something that that the that the

562
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: rest of the golf community is not not giving everyone.

563
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: And so as long as you can stand up and

564
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: say that this is a course that's providing a benefit

565
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: to my community in ways that the private market is

566
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: is not able to, then that's that's our niche. That's

567
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: where the community golf starts to say, all right, then

568
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: a two hundred thousand dollars subsidies starts to make sense

569
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: because one, it's a smaller footprints, so we're using less resources,

570
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: less less dollars. Oh, by the way, you can play

571
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: it much quicker, and and it's you know, it's it's

572
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 2: it's able to attract an area that of the of

573
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 2: the population that wouldn't necessarily go to that championship eight

574
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: you know, eighteen whole seven thousand yard golf course.

575
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: I even think about it with the course I'm talking about,

576
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: like in the area, there's no good driving ranges. Like alone,

577
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: having a driving range, you're going, like a really quality

578
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: driving range, You're going to attract people that are members

579
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: of the country clubs that have subpar driving ranges.

580
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's quite interesting for me to look back

581
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,719
Speaker 2: on properties that we're all built in this this window

582
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 2: that we're we're talking about in the nineties, how the

583
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: driving range was was you know, the history says you

584
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: were lucky to have a driving range, and then when

585
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: you did, it was just for warm up purposes. So

586
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 2: it really wasn't really thought of as a place that

587
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 2: people would come and just bang balls and you know,

588
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: tear up turf and dig holes. They would they would

589
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: basically take a couple of swings and go out and

590
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: play golf. That that entire mentality has shifted, and that

591
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 2: I talk a lot about this myself. That's that's my life,

592
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: That's that's what makes sense to me. I don't go

593
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: out and play eighteen holes with my buddies. Anymore, I

594
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: go out and play four or five holes with my kids.

595
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,239
Speaker 2: I got three young boys, and then I'll take them

596
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: to the to the range to hit balls, and then

597
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 2: I might take them in and get a soda, right

598
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 2: so that or maybe put on the green then Dennesota.

599
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 2: So that to me is a shift in the and

600
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,719
Speaker 2: how we use a golf course. And I think that

601
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 2: that is a real If you don't have that, if

602
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: you're not trending in that area and the practice facilities

603
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 2: of driving ranges, then then I think you're missing out.

604
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: It's it's funny. I was talking to my buddy that

605
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: I grew up playing this golf course with, and you know,

606
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: we played in high school together and grew up riding

607
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: our bikes there and we were the same guys that

608
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: were hitting chewing up our neighbor's lawn. But we talked,

609
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: you know, we had coffee. We were talking and it's

610
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: like we spent the most time on that course is

611
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: putting green, and I you know, you start to think

612
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: about why, and it was it was, it was massive,

613
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: it was it was you know, probably like a ten

614
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: thousand square foot putting green. So you we could do

615
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: and you could chip and everything, and you we'd spend

616
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: hours there and we'd never get tired with it. It

617
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: wasn't a great green like in the sense of like

618
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: it wasn't like supremely interesting with contours. But what it

619
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: was was it was free, it was open, and it

620
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: allowed us to like, it was a place we could

621
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: just spend time, you know, and I think exactly, and

622
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: it's like you think about it, it's like we spent

623
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: more time on that putting green, chipping and putting than

624
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: we did playing the golf course.

625
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: Yep. Yeah. So the uh, the city manager got and

626
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 2: Hobbs for saying, you know, if you're not if a

627
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: city is not too concerned about green fee, you can

628
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: really start to grow the game. And this idea that

629
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 2: you'd have a bucket of putters next to your putting

630
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: green where there was a walking trail, that someone might

631
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: actually pull a putter and hit a ball because they've

632
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: never done that before. You know, the business mind in

633
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: golf says, well, I should charge them for that. That

634
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 2: should be a five dollars putting course fee, right, And

635
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 2: so this this is back to this idea of community golf.

636
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 2: I understand they're doing really good things like down in

637
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 2: winter Park. You know this idea that that it's not

638
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 2: all about a green fee, and it's not all about

639
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,959
Speaker 2: you know, revenue. Sometimes it's more about an asset and

640
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: the quality of life and spending time with your family discussion,

641
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: and you know, those are the ways to do it,

642
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: and it's proven we just haven't. We just ignored it

643
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: for twenty years. That's why I'm saying that I think

644
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: that it's it's prime for a comeback.

645
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, you look at golf and how it changes and

646
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: how there's these different innovations and the last big one

647
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: was the minimalist movement that you know, Tom Doak and

648
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: Bill Kohrr and Ben Crenshaw started with building golf courses

649
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: that were much more lay of the ground. And with

650
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: the ground movement, and you start to think about, like,

651
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: what's going to be this next innovation with golf courses,

652
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: and you have to look no further than abundance of

653
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: golf courses that were built that really don't fit needs

654
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,919
Speaker 1: or aren't any good. And you know, it also makes

655
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: me think about the residential golf courses that just aren't

656
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: very good golf courses. But we're built to make money,

657
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: you know, with residential developments and and that kind of

658
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: fits into this. And I think reimagining those golf courses

659
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: are is what the future of golf course development is.

660
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with all that. I think I think

661
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 2: it's going to be interesting because there's a lot of

662
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: there's a lot of sticky parts of that, because there's

663
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 2: there's zoning regulations and open space and those types of things.

664
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 2: But I couldn't agree more. And I think I think

665
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 2: that the idea that we're going to look back on

666
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: courses like sand Hills and the development like Bandon dune'es I.

667
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: You know, we talk a lot about the dark ages

668
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: of golf, but I think those will be the facilities

669
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: that really, you know, we'll look back and saying that's

670
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: where the golf industry turned to another direction. I can't

671
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 2: help but think even some of these residential courses are

672
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 2: going to have to then change away from just being

673
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 2: a golf course, are going to have to be more

674
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 2: park open space, because I just don't think those are

675
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 2: those are the ones that aren't going to make it.

676
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 2: I think everyone's proven that when you get out into

677
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: open space, free of development and out in nature that's

678
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 2: when we really really that's when we know we really

679
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 2: love golf.

680
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: A house on a golf course is like an immediate

681
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: detractor for people. It's it's amazing, it is. I remember

682
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: I was talking about Philly Cricket Club with somebody and

683
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: somebody goes. Somebody was like, you know, there's those condos

684
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: on the thirteenth hole just ruin everything. And I'm thinking,

685
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, one hole like having condos by there.

686
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: But this guy, you know, he just was offended by

687
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: those condos, like and like, I think that's part of

688
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: the assence of golf as being out and they open

689
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: and getting to you know, disconnect from the world.

690
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think that that whole idea of development

691
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 2: and the right balance for all of those those elements.

692
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 2: You know. The one thing that I believe happened over

693
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:36,919
Speaker 2: a twenty or three year period is that the golf

694
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: course wasn't the number one driver. So you chose sites

695
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,399
Speaker 2: that you didn't necessarily you wouldn't necessarily build a golf

696
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 2: course by itself. It wasn't a great piece of land,

697
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 2: and you ended up, you know, moving a lot of dirt,

698
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: and you raised the houses on the outside and dropped

699
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 2: the golf on the on the middle of the center.

700
00:36:54,200 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: It just got to be repetitive and boring tunnels exactly.

701
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 2: And it's still occurring there. There's properties that are happening.

702
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a big development here in Phoenix going

703
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 2: and I was just that yesterday that you know, they're

704
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 2: building houses all over the place and there's a golf

705
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: course in the middle of it. But but what I

706
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 2: found interesting about it is is the clubhouse was not

707
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 2: just a clubhouse. There was I walked in, the very

708
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 2: first thing I saw was a bike rental shop. It

709
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: was a clubhouse kind of built in a U and

710
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: so they saw bike rentals, and then see kayaks because

711
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 2: you could actually take it out on a big lake

712
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 2: that they were building. And and then there's there's a

713
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 2: whole open space that went off into the center of

714
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 2: the property. And the very first thing you see as

715
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:39,959
Speaker 2: you walk in the back of the clubhouse was a

716
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: big open outdoor seating area and then the driving range.

717
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 2: So it was right in line with all the things

718
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 2: that I'm talking about that the driving range becomes more

719
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: of a social center and people are hanging out and

720
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 2: you just go over, hit some balls and come back

721
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 2: over here, you know, it was so So the residential

722
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 2: part of this is I don't think is necessarily gonna

723
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 2: go away entirely, but I think how we use some

724
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 2: of these central spaces is definitely evolving.

725
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I heard a statistic that a golf course within

726
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 1: walking distance of your home is worth like ten thousand

727
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 1: dollars to your home.

728
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. That wouldn't surprise me.

729
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 1: That's just something I heard with this research I've been

730
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: doing recently, which it's crazy, but you think about like

731
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: these big residential like why doesn't the clubhouse or have

732
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: like a coffee shop, you know, if I live like

733
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 1: down the street, like I'm going to go there rather

734
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: than I'm going to go like spend ten minutes in

735
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: my car going to get coffee.

736
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I think you're you're kind of touching on

737
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 2: some of the things that I that I've been in

738
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 2: the middle of. You know, it's one thing to be

739
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 2: talking about a message. It's another thing to actually implement it,

740
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 2: implement that message. And you know, so our golf business,

741
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 2: if you will, is really they've got the management companies

742
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: and the operators, they've got it pretty well oiled to

743
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 2: a golf business, so they know golf. What they're not

744
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: really good at is or not. I mean they can be,

745
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 2: they just haven't chosen to be good at doing other

746
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: things like coffee houses, bike rentals. They don't understand it.

747
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 2: So now, how do you position the economic there for

748
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: these guys that actually can come in and diversify the

749
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 2: user without having the risk of losing That's that's what's

750
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 2: really that's an interesting part of this. I talked to

751
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 2: a management company a lot about this and he says, well, Andy,

752
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 2: this all sounds great. I love the community links concept,

753
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 2: but right now, no one's hiring us to do that.

754
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: Well I'm going to change that.

755
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, So having working with a municipality versus a private club, like,

756
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: what are you what are the differences that you see?

757
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 2: Do you have enough time? You know? I couldn't you know?

758
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 2: There would Let me start with some of the similarities.

759
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 2: So the similarities are there's always a discussion about money,

760
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 2: there's always a discussion about budget, and there's always a

761
00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: discussion about downtime and disturbance and so so there's certainly

762
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: some similarities that it crossed, you know, both types of projects.

763
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 2: Probably the biggest difference with the municipality. You know, the

764
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: kind of the community golf perspective is just all of

765
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: the other buy in that has to happen. It's it's

766
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: just takes longer to make decisions and more people have

767
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: to weigh in. And that's that's one of the things

768
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: that I think that I've done well at and I

769
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 2: kind of promote myself as I've got the patients that

770
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 2: kind of go through that I'm not going anywhere. So

771
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: this doesn't have to happen in six months. It can

772
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,919
Speaker 2: happen in twelve months or I don't like to take

773
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 2: too long. But and so the stakeholder buy in the meetings,

774
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: to the town hall meetings negotiating certain aspects of the plan.

775
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 2: You know, this is where you start to see, you know,

776
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 2: if I kind of diverge a little bit to see

777
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: what a golfer really looks like. You know, when you're

778
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 2: in a town hall of one hundred and twenty one

779
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty people and you have half golfers, half nons,

780
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: you start to see how we as a group, as

781
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 2: a golfing group react, And I gotta be honest, you know,

782
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 2: the golfers are not very organized. They're not they They

783
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 2: they come in, they say this is our golf course,

784
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 2: and then if they're upset, they'll leave, a lot of

785
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 2: golfers will walk out. They'll say that I'm never coming back,

786
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 2: you know. Whereas the mountain biker Mountain Bike Association or

787
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 2: the equestrian, you know, they'll come up with a PowerPoint presentation,

788
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 2: they'll present everything to us very matter of factly. And

789
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 2: when you actually look back and you start to see

790
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 2: how how the process is going, you know, I find

791
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 2: myself defending golf just from a from a group standpoint,

792
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: you know, not necessarily just me individually or what I'm

793
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 2: trying to do. And so, you know, managing all those

794
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 2: different type of community uses is by far the the difference,

795
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,479
Speaker 2: the big difference. But I will say from a club

796
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 2: from a private club membership is you still have opinions,

797
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 2: but generally it's really driven by, you know, by being

798
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:00,720
Speaker 2: a member at that club.

799
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: That's I think like one of the things in my

800
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: experience with municipalities and and the dynamics of the municipal

801
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: golf course is like how much stock is put into

802
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: their the random group of players that show up for

803
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: whatever meeting, and what they say and and how they'll

804
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: you know, if you raise the race time out of

805
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: here is like, is that really the customer that you want?

806
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 1: If you if you I'm giving you a better golf

807
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: course and it's ten dollars more, you're out of here.

808
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 2: You know, It's that's real, that's real. And I've I've

809
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 2: been in those meetings where the golf you know, three

810
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 2: or four golfers will get in front of the council

811
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 2: and raise their voice and tell the council that there

812
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 2: will never come back, and it scares the council and

813
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 2: because this is their constituents, they don't they don't want

814
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 2: that negativity. So they end up saying, oh, well, we better,

815
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 2: you know, we better, you know, change our message or

816
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 2: the golfers are going to be upset. And you know

817
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 2: that's you know, I find my I'm the golfer, right,

818
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 2: that's I'm a golfer. But I also understand I'm looking

819
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: at it from a kind of a you know, I

820
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: think a bigger picture, and I you know, losing a

821
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: customer is a really difficult thing. And I think with

822
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 2: all this discussion about technology in the game and the

823
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 2: distances and all this evolution of the game, I think

824
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: one of the biggest things we're going to have a

825
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 2: question about is what defines a golfer, what is a

826
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: traditional golfer, and and the challenges of this evolution. You

827
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 2: know you mentioned about bringing your dog out to the course.

828
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. But I've also seen it where

829
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: golfers don't like it when two dogs are barking next

830
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 2: to each other and in their backswing rights. That's the

831
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: traditional golfer that doesn't want those dogs there. You know,

832
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 2: we as a as an industry are our own worst enemy. Sometimes.

833
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: You got your MBA from in Berkeley in twenty twelve.

834
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: I'm curious. I don't think that's a degree that many

835
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: architects have. And how has it helped you from your

836
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: business side?

837
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 2: So quick clarification, it's not a full MBA. It was

838
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 2: it was an executive education. Uh, pretty intense study. But

839
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: I can't say that I have an MBA, but thank

840
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 2: you for giving me the.

841
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: All that I'll go with it.

842
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 2: I will say this that that the two things that

843
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: that I wish I would have learned quicker were that

844
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 2: it's not about what you know, it's who you know.

845
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 2: It's a relationship business. And then two would be understanding

846
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 2: business from how to allocate dollars and how you know,

847
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: we talkt we talk a lot about a design fee

848
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 2: and how much people charge for a design. You know,

849
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 2: for a young guy like me, my design you know,

850
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 2: generally my design fee has to last almost two years

851
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 2: because I've got twelve months of design and then there's

852
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 2: going to be a permitting window and then we might

853
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: get the whole construction done in six months or twelve months.

854
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 2: And so you know the economic behind you know, how

855
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 2: the dollars and cents of operating a design business. You know,

856
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: we we drop pictures. We're creative people and typically don't

857
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: We're not really good at sales, and we're certainly not

858
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 2: good at business by nature. So it's really showed me

859
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 2: what I don't know more than it's kind of given

860
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 2: me what I do know. So I keep trying to

861
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 2: be better at that. Business is hard.

862
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: Let's transition into one of your more recent projects. You

863
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: did a restoration renovation of Meadowbrook Golf Club up in Detroit,

864
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,399
Speaker 1: Michigan area. A Willie Park design it, and I think

865
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: you know I've been I've gotten countless emails from people

866
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: saying that it's a spot that I must check out.

867
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,919
Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about meadow Brook and

868
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: how that job came about.

869
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 2: Sure, your meadow Brook Country Club, Northville, Michigan, about twenty

870
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 2: five miles or so outside of well, about three miles

871
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 2: outside Detroit, and it was the private club. Family family dominated.

872
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 2: It's got swim tennis, active social program, and they chose

873
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: to undergo some master planning. I think it was in

874
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen or twenty fourteen when I first It was

875
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 2: early fourteen when I first met him, and they interviewed

876
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: fifteen guys. I happened to get on the list, and

877
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: we went through a process of elimination. You know. That's

878
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 2: that's the other thing about our business today is it's

879
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 2: like it seems like you're either dealing with one or

880
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: two guys or you're dealing with twenty guys. So this

881
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 2: was one of the ones that you end up end

882
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: up just kind of having patience and providing as much

883
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 2: information as you as you can. And I made a

884
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: few visits where I actually started to get to know

885
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 2: some of the people. The general manager, Joe Morine and

886
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 2: I kind of kicked it off right from the beginning.

887
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: We just kind of got along right away, and it

888
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,720
Speaker 2: narrowed down to five and we did a big interview

889
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 2: and I laid out some ideas and you know, I

890
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 2: focused a lot of about how I can sell a

891
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: plan and be in front of them membership and all

892
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 2: my focus group, you know, kind of concept. I have

893
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 2: a big portion of my master plan where I get

894
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: in front of the members and get to know them

895
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: and it it it escalated into a contract and it

896
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 2: was my first project in Michigan, and and it was

897
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 2: quite quite a coup for someone from Arizona coming to Michigan.

898
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 2: You know, the state of Michigan's pretty pretty specific about

899
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 2: who they worked with up there. They love their state.

900
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 2: And so I'm originally from Wisconsin, so I guess I

901
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 2: could I could play off that I was a Midwesterner

902
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: at by heart, but it could have been better. I

903
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: can't imagine finding another club that I've gotten along with

904
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: better and had a better working relationship, and probably more importantly,

905
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 2: a club that really trusted me and let me, you know,

906
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 2: kind of go through the process and then design a

907
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 2: course that that I think reflected what we tried, you know,

908
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 2: what the club needed and what we wanted to do.

909
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 2: It was a Willie Park Junior original design, but it

910
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 2: was only six holes. Willie Park couldn't couldn't finish the

911
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 2: rest of the course because of financial issues, so Collis

912
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 2: and Deray ended up expanding it from Chicago. There they

913
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:05,760
Speaker 2: expanded it to eighteen holes.

914
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: Those guys did a course up in Chicago called, I

915
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 1: think Gone Flora Country Club.

916
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, you know the Olympia Fields. They have

917
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 2: some connection there, and then Phloso Moore have some connection

918
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 2: between the two and they brought they actually brought I

919
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 2: believe they brought Park over to do Olympia Fields eventually

920
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 2: the North of course. Yeah, the North course. Right.

921
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: It's interesting. So when you get this kind of a project,

922
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 1: what kind of research goes into the architects and the history?

923
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, well a lot. And I think one of the

924
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 2: things that I just have an appreciation for, whether or

925
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 2: not it's one hundred years old or if it's fifteen

926
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,919
Speaker 2: or twenty years old, is let's find some history about

927
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 2: why it is what it is, because you there's always reasons.

928
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 2: There's always a permitting issue, there's always a budget issue,

929
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 2: or there's something that goes into the process of why

930
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 2: that golf course looks the way it does, and so

931
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 2: one of the big things about Meadowbrook is you could

932
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 2: tell that it had been expanded upon over a number

933
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 2: of years and then they ultimately in the seventies did

934
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 2: an Art Hills master plan with a couple hole renovation

935
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,439
Speaker 2: and Jerry Matthews was another one that had some work

936
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 2: on bunkers and a tree planting plan, so they they

937
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 2: did a fair bit of planting through the eighties. So yeah,

938
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 2: there was so yeah, there's a huge amount of history.

939
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 2: But one of the things that I clued in on

940
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 2: is obviously wondering what it was that Willie Park Jr.

941
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: Really wanted it in his eighteen hole design, because there's

942
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 2: an indication that he did eighteen hole design, but we

943
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 2: didn't have any drawings for it, and so I dove

944
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,479
Speaker 2: deep into that. So I looked at his green design.

945
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 2: I tried to do as much local history. So yeah,

946
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 2: there's a tremendous amount of research that goes into it.

947
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: So Willie Park Jr. Is I think in America a

948
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: little bit underappreciated, but he I mean, he has some

949
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 1: of the some of the best designs in the United

950
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: UK and and obviously he did, you know, he's Maidstone

951
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 1: and Olympia Fields North were two of his designs. Here,

952
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: what are some of the traits of a Willie Park

953
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: course that might get overlooked?

954
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, Battle Creek outside of Detroit. There is another good,

955
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 2: really good Willie Park. I actually I think that's one

956
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 2: of the better ones. But so to me it feels

957
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 2: like he's very driven on locating his greens. And you know,

958
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 2: so one of the parts of the of the research

959
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 2: is we went over to England and we did as

960
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 2: much as we could to see the work in the US.

961
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,320
Speaker 2: But this place called Huntercombe and a place called Sunningdale

962
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: Old were two places that we knew or I knew

963
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 2: that I wanted to get to get a hold of

964
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 2: and actually see. And so we.

965
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 1: Got a little history.

966
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a little bit. It's hard, well it's hard

967
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 2: for me to figure out exactly how much is still

968
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 2: Park versus Colt. But nonetheless we knew that Huntercombe was

969
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 2: his and relatively untouched. And so when you compare what

970
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 2: he did in the US and then you look at

971
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 2: what we all think is really pretty good indication of

972
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 2: what he liked about golf or what he thought he liked,

973
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 2: it was a little bit of his experimentation course at Huntercombe.

974
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 2: You didn't quite you didn't quite relate. So it was

975
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 2: obvious that the courses that he were building here, he

976
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 2: was doing a lot of work. He came back in

977
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:35,239
Speaker 2: nineteen fifteen, back from from the UK, landed i think

978
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,720
Speaker 2: on tax day in April April fifteenth of nineteen fifteen,

979
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 2: and you see all the courses he was doing at

980
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,320
Speaker 2: one time. So you know, the whole Donald Ross discussion,

981
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 2: how many times can he get to a course? And

982
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 2: so the Huntercombe project really resonated with us, you know,

983
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 2: so a lot more interesting green contours, a lot more diversity.

984
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 2: You know, I think Willie Parks tends to do a

985
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 2: lot of the same kind of greens. Hey that's a

986
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:05,760
Speaker 2: little you know obviously nuances, but you know, back to front,

987
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 2: a big deep swale behind. So he was always very

988
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 2: specific about locating his greens and and uh and then

989
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 2: a Huntercombe you know, he he did a fair bit

990
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 2: of drainage ditches and grass bunkers that weren't always didn't

991
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 2: have sand in them. Originally what they call over there

992
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 2: Willy park potts, you know, park pop bunkers. And so

993
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,439
Speaker 2: I think we for us, we realized that it wasn't

994
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 2: all eighteen hole, an entire eighteen hole Willy Park Junior

995
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 2: at Meadowbrook, and that gave us some latitude to bring

996
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 2: some of this flavor from from from England. And then

997
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 2: I had a committee that that a couple of them

998
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 2: went with me to to England to see the work.

999
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 2: And we came back to the US and said, man,

1000
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 2: if we could bring some of that over here, it'd

1001
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 2: be cool. And I said, let's do it. And so

1002
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:54,479
Speaker 2: we started to kind of you know, so I would

1003
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: say it's a sympathetic Uh, I don't know if i'd

1004
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: use the word restoration, but it's sympathetic to parks work

1005
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 2: that we saw. But you know, it was as much

1006
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 2: of our own interpretation as it was anything that we

1007
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 2: had any documentation on.

1008
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: M It's how important is it to get you know,

1009
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: your committee out to see stuff when you're when you're

1010
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 1: undertaking a project.

1011
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 2: Like this, I would tell you it's important and incredibly important.

1012
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 2: It's one of the things that continues to be very

1013
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 2: difficult because getting everybody in the same place to go

1014
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 2: travel across the country is is is time intensive, resource intensive.

1015
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 2: It's great when you have work locally, so the area

1016
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 2: around Detroit has a lot of the stuff that we

1017
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 2: would have wanted to see. But you know, we went

1018
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 2: to Pittsburgh, went to the to Long Island, and so

1019
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 2: one of our members is very familiar with the North

1020
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,760
Speaker 2: Course at Olympia Fields, and so, you know, it's incredible.

1021
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 2: It's very important. If nothing else, it's a team building exercise.

1022
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 2: You actually get a chance to go stand on a green.

1023
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 2: I remember we went and played Garden City Golf Club.

1024
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 2: We stood in that you know those greens. Okay, what

1025
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 2: do we like? What we don't like? And that that's

1026
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 2: a really cool part of the job I believe is

1027
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 2: that you know, you get to sense what people are

1028
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:11,720
Speaker 2: comfortable with. And I'll tell you that my committee was

1029
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 2: was really comfortable with doing something cool.

1030
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 1: So architecture. I always feel like people have kind of

1031
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: awakening moments at different different times. Is are there a

1032
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 1: handful of courses or you know one particular golf course

1033
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 1: that you feel has inspired your career.

1034
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm thinking of a couple of backups, but the

1035
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 2: number one, without any question is the old course at St. Andrews.

1036
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 2: And it's one of the things that I was in

1037
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 2: the business for a while before I actually got over

1038
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 2: there to see it. So as soon as I saw it,

1039
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 2: that was you know, that was my if you want

1040
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 2: to call it an awakening, and it was. It was

1041
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 2: certainly that same question that we all asked, like, how

1042
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 2: in the world did we get so far away from

1043
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 2: this in the US. And so I got to come

1044
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 2: back the old course all the time. And then and

1045
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,240
Speaker 2: then number two is you know, just understanding the impact

1046
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,359
Speaker 2: that it's had on our businesses, the Sandhills Golf Club.

1047
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 2: I mean that that that one really started to show

1048
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 2: you that that that some of this this kind of

1049
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 2: ethic that you brought from that you had from from

1050
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 2: the old country of Scotland, that was actually coming over

1051
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 2: here and in such a beautiful place to do it

1052
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 2: in the sand dunes without an ocean, but you got

1053
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 2: this ocean of dunes. And so I would say those

1054
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 2: are probably two of the ones that come right to mind.

1055
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah.

1056
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 1: They I gotta get over to the old course. That's

1057
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:36,879
Speaker 1: high on the high on the list of things to do.

1058
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 2: But sand the best part of the old course is

1059
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 2: walking it on Sunday. I mean, well, one of the

1060
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 2: good one of the best parts of the old course

1061
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 2: is getting out there on Sunday and walking around and

1062
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,719
Speaker 2: seeing the greens and watching people walk their dogs and

1063
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 2: and all that stuff that that's just that's just so cool.

1064
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 1: When you when you go out to say a site

1065
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: visit for a potential project, what's your prep look like?

1066
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: Do you do a lot of prep before do you

1067
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: go walk it blind without knowing it?

1068
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:07,319
Speaker 2: Like?

1069
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 1: How does that work?

1070
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,760
Speaker 2: So one of the things that that I always it's

1071
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 2: it's kind of interesting because I've had this happen to

1072
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 2: be a number of times where I go out and

1073
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 2: I visit a committee with a committee and we go

1074
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:23,800
Speaker 2: out and walk the golf course, and everybody is looking

1075
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 2: for me to just start talking, you know, well, I'm

1076
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 2: looking at this and look at that, when in fact,

1077
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 2: all I'm doing is just I'm taking it in. And

1078
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 2: I think a lot of my feelings of design and

1079
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 2: my philosophy on design is what does it feel like

1080
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 2: I'm visualizing hitting shots, I'm looking at the forms and

1081
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,600
Speaker 2: features are cool, but I'm just taking it in. And

1082
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 2: so one of the difficult parts that I've always I've

1083
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 2: always felt one of the difficult parts of what what

1084
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 2: we do is is not only looking at it for

1085
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 2: the first time and seeing it through our eyes, but

1086
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 2: then knowing how a membership plays it and understanding the

1087
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 2: differences between the better player versus the the average player.

1088
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,800
Speaker 2: And and so I've been commented that people who just

1089
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 2: stop me and say, Okay, Anny, what what are you

1090
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,879
Speaker 2: saying now? What are you what are you seeing now?

1091
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 2: You're not saying anything like what I now. I've gotten

1092
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:12,919
Speaker 2: to the point where I just warned them. I said, guys,

1093
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 2: don't think that I'm gonna talk too much. I'm out here.

1094
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 2: I'm taking it all in. But overall, it's It's one

1095
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 2: of the things that I like about the focus group

1096
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,680
Speaker 2: portion of my of my process is that I get

1097
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 2: to know how these guys are actually playing it and

1098
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 2: not how I would play it. And so, you know,

1099
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 2: to me, that's there's a lot of time just understanding

1100
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 2: what they how they play it, what they like about it,

1101
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 2: what they don't like about it, and then start to

1102
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 2: overlay my own feelings on top of it under through

1103
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 2: that lens. So that's that to me is so there's

1104
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 2: a lot of time, and when it comes down to

1105
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 2: the actual ideas, I always talk. I'm an eighty twenty guy.

1106
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 2: I don't know what that with eighty percent twenty percent,

1107
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 2: I get eighty percent right or eighty percent finished, and

1108
00:57:56,440 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 2: then twenty percent you can leave open kind of and ended.

1109
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 2: And that's kind of where my planning always goes, is

1110
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 2: a you know, let's get into eighty percent, but twenty

1111
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 2: percent we can start to refine in the field. And

1112
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 2: sometimes it's one hundred percent. Sometimes you start all over,

1113
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 2: of course, but but I always leave a little bit

1114
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 2: of my interpretation to kind of evolve when we finally

1115
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 2: get the construction.

1116
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, with obviously, with restoration is a big topic with

1117
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: the you know, do you put it all back into

1118
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: place exactly how it was at the best time they

1119
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: determined for the golf course, or do you you know,

1120
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: modernize it a little bit and move bunkers into where

1121
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 1: they would have been given technology and distance lengthening. Where

1122
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 1: do you have a stance on that or is every

1123
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 1: situation kind of different?

1124
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the easy answer is every situation is different.

1125
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 2: But I I would I would contend that that if

1126
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 2: you're going to call something a restoration, you better be

1127
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 2: darn sure that it's restored to what was actually built

1128
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 2: in what it actuallytually was. And so to me, the

1129
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 2: word restoration. I kind of laugh on it because you know,

1130
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 2: it's one of those words that everyone loves and everyone

1131
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 2: gets it, but then it becomes so overused, like just

1132
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 2: the idea that someone's restoring something sort of gives it

1133
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 2: this connotation that that it must be exclusive, must be

1134
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 2: really good. And so so I I'm one that that

1135
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 2: that tries to, you know, to understand the logistics of

1136
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 2: restoration and understand if that's even possible, and even if

1137
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 2: it's if it's something they want to do. I'm working

1138
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 2: with a club in California right now. We've had this

1139
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 2: exact conversation. We've got a really good aerial that shows

1140
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 2: some some the golf course in a state that that

1141
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 2: a couple of really famous architects have worked on it.

1142
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 2: And we said, hey, do we want to restore to

1143
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 2: this and and some of it's not possible, and and

1144
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 2: then you know, then we have those bunkers that are

1145
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty yards off the tee right in

1146
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 2: the right in the landing area of Missus Jones and

1147
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 2: and and those types of things. So what what I've

1148
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 2: tried to do is I always try to go back

1149
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 2: in and restore the location of that bunker and give

1150
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 2: it the feeling that there was a bunker there. But

1151
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 2: I'll maybe soften it, make it rough, but make it

1152
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 2: part of the composition of the golf hole. Not necessarily

1153
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 2: put bunkers back, but then use mowing lines and try

1154
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 2: to do something in turf to actually accentuate that what

1155
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 2: that course was like. And not necessarily if that is,

1156
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 2: if we're not going down the restoration tack. But I

1157
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,439
Speaker 2: always like to pay homage to those old features, even

1158
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 2: if it's a little bump offen the rough that only

1159
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 2: me and the superintendent know about. At least we know

1160
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 2: that that's where it was.

1161
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: What's your pet peeve at a golf course. I've got mine.

1162
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: I'm just curious what yours are.

1163
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 2: Where do I start green speeds? I can't tell you

1164
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 2: how many golf courses I know that that consumed way

1165
01:00:56,320 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 2: too much energy and too much thought and re versus

1166
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 2: around trying to trying to get speeds to a certain level. Uh.

1167
01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 2: And then I would also say that, you know, one

1168
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 2: of my pet piece personally is this idea of designing

1169
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 2: courses for the better player while making them playable and

1170
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 2: interesting for the you know, the average player, and you

1171
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 2: know to me that that is that sounds so easy

1172
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,560
Speaker 2: to do when you apply those to a particular piece

1173
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 2: of property, and especially a renovation that has limitations it.

1174
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 2: You know, playing the right set of tease is so

1175
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 2: important and and so from a golfing standpoint, the idea

1176
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 2: that any man would ultimately move forward to us at

1177
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 2: a teas that aren't you know, in his wheelhouse, to

1178
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 2: me that that's a major pet peeve. But all of

1179
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 2: the things around length and and teeing teeing grounds is

1180
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 2: something that that that I probably would describe as a

1181
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 2: pet peeve.

1182
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,919
Speaker 1: It's funny. I so I played golf with a guy

1183
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: that I've played golf with like dozens of times in

1184
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 1: Florida recently. He's an older guy, and yeah, he likes

1185
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: playing back with me when he and he you know,

1186
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 1: he's a guy that's played in in a ton of

1187
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 1: USGA events, Like this guy's a stick. He was, you know,

1188
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: one of the best players in Ohio for a long

1189
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: time and as an am and and it's funny. He's

1190
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 1: he's getting I think he's close to seventy now. But

1191
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: we played and we had another older guy in the

1192
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 1: group and he played way up. I mean he played

1193
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 1: under probably under six thousand yards fifty seven hundred yards,

1194
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 1: and like, all of a sudden, like this guy was

1195
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 1: a stick again. And it's like and I talked to

1196
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 1: him about it, He's like, I love it. Like I

1197
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 1: play like I used to play, because I'm hitting shots

1198
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 1: and I'm getting birdie putts when I hit a good drive.

1199
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 1: I've got a short iron end when I hit you know,

1200
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 1: on longer part fours, I've got I've got long iron

1201
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 1: mid irons. But I'm not just chipping up all the

1202
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 1: time anymore. Like if I mean, he can go play

1203
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 1: at the back to he's and shoot seventy six, seventy eight,

1204
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 1: but now he can shoot in the sixties every time

1205
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 1: if he plays up awesome, and it's just more fun.

1206
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, So a little bit going back to Meadowbrooks for

1207
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 2: a second, there were some people, some gals on our

1208
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 2: on our committee and in the focus groups, that thought

1209
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 2: the game of golf was meant to be played driver

1210
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 2: three would on every part four and part five, and

1211
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 2: in some cases driver on every part three. That's what

1212
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 2: they thought golf was. And and when you start to

1213
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 2: think about that, that there's there's a whole generation of

1214
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 2: golfers that have not been able to experience the game

1215
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 2: the way that we talk about you know, the driver

1216
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 2: short end or a driveable hole. You know, they think

1217
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 2: of a driverable hole being a part three. It's crazy.

1218
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 1: It's yeah. I think that that playing the right t

1219
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 1: is like one of the biggest epidemics in American golf

1220
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 1: and then in you know, Kingdom. Just there's so many

1221
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 1: golf courses that are like, you know, fifty six hundred

1222
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 1: yards that's fine, right, Well.

1223
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 2: That's the difference. That's the difference where because there's this

1224
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 2: discussion about how many t's, how many tea and grounds

1225
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 2: on a golf hole or too many? Is is three?

1226
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:11,919
Speaker 2: The right number is four? Is five? Oh my gosh,

1227
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 2: we can't do six. That's way too many. Well, that

1228
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 2: only happens when you get yardages above the sixty three

1229
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:20,439
Speaker 2: hundred yard mark. You know a lot of these even

1230
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 2: if you get the sixty six hundred yard you might

1231
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 2: have a little small, little back tea, but you know

1232
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 2: it's now when you go from seventy three hundred yards

1233
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 2: all the way down to four thousand, which is what

1234
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 2: I'm trying to do. It's trying to get this diversification.

1235
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 2: It's it's hard to make a golf hole look classic

1236
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 2: and like it fits with all these little pads. So

1237
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 2: that's one of the things that I think we're really

1238
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 2: you know, we're really working hard to give that diversity.

1239
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 2: And you know, combo sets of t's are really popular

1240
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 2: in my world, where you can only you know, only

1241
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 2: have to build three or four sets of t's, maybe

1242
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:50,720
Speaker 2: ones all the way up in the fairway so you're

1243
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 2: not really mowing that as a tee and then combo

1244
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 2: in between, so that you have the right yardage that

1245
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 2: you're looking for, but you're only utilizing three t's. To me,

1246
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 2: that's that makes a lot of sense.

1247
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 1: I mean, playing more tees and different teas on different

1248
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: holes like is only going to add to the variety

1249
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: of the golf course, especially if you play the the

1250
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:15,440
Speaker 1: course on a daily basis or a regular basis.

1251
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 2: I totally agree. So so san Holo, I worked on

1252
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:23,680
Speaker 2: a product in Saint George's Utah Sanjalo, and when I

1253
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 2: take friends there, I never play from the scorecard. We

1254
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 2: always have a game. You know, not all my friends

1255
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 2: are all great players, but you know, well I'm not

1256
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 2: a great player, But I mean some of them are

1257
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 2: lesser than I am, but I'll take them to a

1258
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 2: set of tees to say, Okay, this is what we

1259
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 2: were thinking about here, and this is where you play

1260
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 2: it now. And then there's a there's a twenty it's

1261
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 2: twenty seven holes and one of one of the nines

1262
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 2: is a kind of an open all mode together concept

1263
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:54,240
Speaker 2: called the Links nine, and we specifically intended that course

1264
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 2: to be played from multiple sets of tees so that

1265
01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 2: you could have a different feeling as you played it through.

1266
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 2: So to me, I never go back to my courses

1267
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 2: and actually play from the card. I will always take

1268
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,920
Speaker 2: my friends, especially if it's only one time. All right, guys,

1269
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 2: let's go play from this tea, because this is where

1270
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 2: it really based on who I'm playing with, this is

1271
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 2: exactly how it was meant to be played. And to

1272
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 2: me that you know, of course, that's a little inside

1273
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 2: knowledge from my standpoint, but the it's it's not very

1274
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 2: well accepted and not not not well no, not well

1275
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 2: practiced within our industry for sure.

1276
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:29,240
Speaker 1: We talked about Bandon Dunes earlier, and I mean, I

1277
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 1: think that was one of the big philosophies of that

1278
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 1: whole place, was like designing a golf course around like

1279
01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:38,080
Speaker 1: at a yardage where people would enjoy golf.

1280
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean, well the original course, they've they've even

1281
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 2: added some tea's going forward. You know, my friend Art

1282
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 2: Little has been a part up there helping out with

1283
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 2: this idea of relating swing speed to actual yardage on

1284
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 2: a golf course. And when you actually use something somewhat

1285
01:06:57,080 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 2: technical like that, you start to say, Okay, you know

1286
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 2: there's certain limitations for actual abilities based on how you're

1287
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:06,120
Speaker 2: swinging and how far you could actually carry the ball,

1288
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 2: because that's a lot a lot of what it comes

1289
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 2: down to is these force carriers are getting up to

1290
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 2: the fairways. So yeah, but I couldn't agree more. They've

1291
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 2: done done a great job of you know now they

1292
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:17,919
Speaker 2: even funnel everybody right to the sixty three or sixty

1293
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:19,000
Speaker 2: two hundred yard golf course.

1294
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,919
Speaker 1: You got your start in the industry in a role

1295
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 1: for a construction company that is regularly contracted to do work,

1296
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 1: and curious your take on kind of this design build

1297
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 1: and versus design contract not really schism is I don't

1298
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 1: know if that's the right word, but debate that that is,

1299
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 1: you know, prevalent in golf course architecture.

1300
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 2: Well, that's that's a big, big discussion. So anybody who's

1301
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 2: worked in a really you know, a good open design

1302
01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 2: build relationship where where not everybody, not nobody on the

1303
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:06,440
Speaker 2: team is going to get penalized and there's not a

1304
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 2: major schedule. It's not that we're milking time or whatever.

1305
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 2: But uh, the design build is by far the you know,

1306
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:19,640
Speaker 2: the best way to get results and and certainly have

1307
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 2: you know, some pretty good fun doing it. Where where

1308
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:27,840
Speaker 2: the design contract starts to become uh, you know, more

1309
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:30,599
Speaker 2: of a role and there's a lot of talk about

1310
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 2: design build and and how you know, in the in

1311
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:37,280
Speaker 2: the twenty thirty years ago, architects would drop plans and

1312
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 2: then hand them over to a contractor. You know, I

1313
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 2: get that, and in a lot of cases I've been

1314
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:44,839
Speaker 2: a part of some projects like that. But that happened

1315
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 2: for I think a real reason. Even today, even when

1316
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:49,839
Speaker 2: you when you're doing a design build, you're still having

1317
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:53,479
Speaker 2: to have a contractor as part of the as part

1318
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 2: of the team. I've yet even today, you know, to

1319
01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:59,600
Speaker 2: find those That's what we did at San Hollo. We

1320
01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:01,640
Speaker 2: had all everyone on of time of materials, and we

1321
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:04,680
Speaker 2: started the project and we didn't stop until we were

1322
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,639
Speaker 2: happy with it. But that is so rare these days.

1323
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:12,640
Speaker 2: Owners want budgets, they want time frames, certainly on a

1324
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 2: on a renovations schedule. They only want to be closed

1325
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:18,439
Speaker 2: for a certain part of the season or only one

1326
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 2: season and that's it, or else it's not going to pass.

1327
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:25,599
Speaker 2: And so contractors start to bring the ability for architects

1328
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 2: to meet those goals. And I think, to me, when

1329
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 2: you apply, then when you apply the actual business of

1330
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,200
Speaker 2: design and being able to only have a certain amount

1331
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:36,880
Speaker 2: of time in your in your schedule that you know

1332
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 2: to be able to spend one hundred percent of your

1333
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,519
Speaker 2: time on a golf course, you know that limits you

1334
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,599
Speaker 2: on a lot of other areas. So what I've done

1335
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 2: is I've set my I try to include design, shaping

1336
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:50,800
Speaker 2: and part of my contract. I've got a guy that

1337
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:52,719
Speaker 2: I've done a lot of work with. His named Scott

1338
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:56,719
Speaker 2: Scott Clem. But I've a great guy, great at architecture, geek.

1339
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:59,720
Speaker 2: He understands it from what we're all trying to accomplish.

1340
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 2: But I've other guys that I've worked with. I always

1341
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:05,720
Speaker 2: try to have somebody there to support me. But but

1342
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,360
Speaker 2: I think as long as you're able to spend the

1343
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 2: right amount of time in the field, which is what

1344
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:11,640
Speaker 2: I always try to do, even though I'm not on

1345
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 2: a piece of equipment. However, I have, I have operated.

1346
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:19,160
Speaker 2: I just I just don't anymore. And so those guys

1347
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:21,200
Speaker 2: are a lot better at it than I am. And

1348
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 2: so you know, the designed contract works for me in

1349
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 2: the in the times that clients dictate it, and then

1350
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 2: I'm able to spend a lot of time in the field.

1351
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 2: So I don't know if I've answered a question, but

1352
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:35,560
Speaker 2: that there's a lot there on that on that discussion.

1353
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 2: You know, I've always wondered for guys that are really

1354
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:41,760
Speaker 2: promoting design build, you know, especially when you know the

1355
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 2: self operators. You know, I just think of it in

1356
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:46,880
Speaker 2: my own my own time. I've got a family, I've

1357
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 2: got three young boys are playing baseball, you know, So

1358
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:52,040
Speaker 2: I I prefer to try to get it in a

1359
01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 2: position where I where I work with contractors on a

1360
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:57,920
Speaker 2: regular basis or shapers that on a regular basis, because

1361
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 2: you know, Scott goes you know, months of a time

1362
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:04,720
Speaker 2: at certain places when when it's the right project. But

1363
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 2: you know, the design build has its own limitations, and

1364
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,519
Speaker 2: there's only so much time in a day that if

1365
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:12,160
Speaker 2: you're going to want to do multiple projects, or if

1366
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:14,680
Speaker 2: you're lucky enough to have multiple projects going on at

1367
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:17,800
Speaker 2: one time, design build gets a lot more difficult when

1368
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:19,879
Speaker 2: you when you spread yourself then.

1369
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:25,680
Speaker 1: Is the efficiencies of running a business. It definitely it

1370
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:30,519
Speaker 1: hinders how many projects you can take on. I think,

1371
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, I think there's a huge value to you know,

1372
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:38,000
Speaker 1: the design, build and the work. I think it's a

1373
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:43,680
Speaker 1: it's a fascinating aspect because you know, I think everything

1374
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:47,360
Speaker 1: in all of the world kind of tends to swing

1375
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:52,280
Speaker 1: on pendulums, you know, and in the eighties and early

1376
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 1: nineties it was way over on the contractor side, you know,

1377
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 1: this is the way to do it, you know.

1378
01:11:57,840 --> 01:11:59,680
Speaker 2: And yeah, what i'd say about that though, you know,

1379
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:01,760
Speaker 2: one of the things that that that I have to say

1380
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 2: about the contractor side is that, you know, because the

1381
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:10,840
Speaker 2: business became so so busy, you now have a lot

1382
01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:13,519
Speaker 2: of people building golf courses who don't even play golf.

1383
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 2: And that's one of the things that I feel. You

1384
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:18,800
Speaker 2: talk a lot about the dark Ages, you know, maybe

1385
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:20,559
Speaker 2: a reference that before you know, a lot of it

1386
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 2: is people just didn't understand the game and you're now

1387
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:27,760
Speaker 2: you're asking somebody to put a little curl in a green,

1388
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:31,280
Speaker 2: a little wrinkle, a little little bump, and you know,

1389
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:33,200
Speaker 2: Scott and I will shape it in and we'll try

1390
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:35,200
Speaker 2: to get it in there right, and you know, I'll

1391
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:37,439
Speaker 2: be out there with my rake and shovel and getting

1392
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:39,439
Speaker 2: it exactly right, and then the finished crew comes through

1393
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 2: and wipes it out because you know, the last ten

1394
01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:45,800
Speaker 2: FASIO jobs they've done, that was something that got wiped out.

1395
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:49,320
Speaker 2: We removed it. Well, no, that was something I specifically

1396
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 2: wanted there and they'd never seen it before. And so

1397
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:56,879
Speaker 2: to me, to me, what what the design Builds concept

1398
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:59,479
Speaker 2: today is really doing is it's putting the focus back

1399
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:03,360
Speaker 2: on understand the game of golf. And to me, that's

1400
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:05,120
Speaker 2: that's what's really cool about it, you know, and I

1401
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:08,240
Speaker 2: think you can get you can get there. You know.

1402
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 2: Back to that eighty twenty year old we need to

1403
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:12,840
Speaker 2: make it at least eighty percent right now. The question

1404
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:14,720
Speaker 2: is how much of that twenty percent. I try to

1405
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:16,880
Speaker 2: get as close to one hundred percent as I possibly can,

1406
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:19,519
Speaker 2: and the only way to get one hundred percent is

1407
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:24,559
Speaker 2: actually being there doing it yourself. Design building. But then again,

1408
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:27,240
Speaker 2: if I'm there for the last two months doing that.

1409
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:30,519
Speaker 2: More than likely I missed out on another RFP. I wasn't

1410
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 2: able to, right, you know, make a visit to go

1411
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:36,439
Speaker 2: inquire about this other project. And oh, by the way,

1412
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,640
Speaker 2: I just missed three baseball games. And so you know,

1413
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 2: life happens in between there. And to me, that's where

1414
01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:45,920
Speaker 2: I wonder how the design build will stand up from

1415
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,120
Speaker 2: a business standpoint, because the contracting happened for a reason,

1416
01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:50,519
Speaker 2: and that was to be able to do a lot

1417
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 2: of golf over a very short period of time. Now

1418
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:55,600
Speaker 2: we've swung back the other way to your analogy with

1419
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:58,840
Speaker 2: the pendulum, I just wonder how much we're going to

1420
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 2: actually be able to you know, whether a design build

1421
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:06,439
Speaker 2: will actually be a sustainable model for guys like me.

1422
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:10,040
Speaker 1: Hey, I think it ends up settling somewhere in the

1423
01:14:10,080 --> 01:14:14,120
Speaker 1: middle where you know, there's there's a you know, there's

1424
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:18,280
Speaker 1: a role of each and different projects call for different methods,

1425
01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:18,680
Speaker 1: you know.

1426
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:22,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think well, and I think a five million

1427
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:25,719
Speaker 2: dollar renovation is a lot different than a six hundred

1428
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:28,160
Speaker 2: thousand dollars bunker project, right so I think I think

1429
01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:32,439
Speaker 2: to me, to me, scale and and logistics start to

1430
01:14:32,479 --> 01:14:35,799
Speaker 2: play right in line with, you know, the right construction process.

1431
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:37,960
Speaker 2: Do you need this kind of contractor with this kind

1432
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:42,080
Speaker 2: of financial financial sense, you know, or for financial backing

1433
01:14:42,080 --> 01:14:44,720
Speaker 2: to be able to get this project done. I went

1434
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:47,839
Speaker 2: back to Meadowbrook and I went to them and I said,

1435
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:50,720
Speaker 2: you know, guys, if you're asking me how to do

1436
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 2: this right, we should design, build and get get a

1437
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:56,120
Speaker 2: contractor to help support us, and bring in some some

1438
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:58,440
Speaker 2: support staff and put everybody on the time of materials

1439
01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:03,880
Speaker 2: so that there's no there's no feeling of you know,

1440
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:07,360
Speaker 2: of everybody but he getting you know, lost or or losing.

1441
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:11,240
Speaker 2: And the president of the club at the times that Andy,

1442
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 2: we just can't do that. We need a number, We

1443
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:15,800
Speaker 2: need to go to the membership with a number. And

1444
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:17,679
Speaker 2: I said, well, I can give you a number. Yeah,

1445
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 2: but we don't have a contract that says that it's

1446
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 2: not going to exceed that. Well, no, it's a time

1447
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 2: of materials. But yet you're gonna we're going to manage this.

1448
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 2: It just didn't fly. Now looking back, he looks at it,

1449
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:29,320
Speaker 2: he says, oh, now I see what you're saying. That

1450
01:15:29,360 --> 01:15:31,920
Speaker 2: would have been some value there, But there's no way

1451
01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:33,720
Speaker 2: I could have convinced Metalbrook to do that. They're just

1452
01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 2: so we picked our battle and we designed contract at it.

1453
01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:41,320
Speaker 2: Scott and another couple of guys were shapers on it,

1454
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:44,640
Speaker 2: and then we had a contractor you know, doing the

1455
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:45,240
Speaker 2: heavy lifting.

1456
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:49,880
Speaker 1: Let's get into some lighter stuff, all right, all right,

1457
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:55,160
Speaker 1: who do you consider the most the least appreciated architect.

1458
01:15:56,200 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 2: Least appreciated, underappreciated, underappreciated. You know, I I go back

1459
01:16:03,479 --> 01:16:06,000
Speaker 2: to a guy like Perry Maxwell. I know he's probably

1460
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:08,479
Speaker 2: gained a little bit more traction in our architecture world

1461
01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:10,840
Speaker 2: than he has in years past, but I got a

1462
01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:13,920
Speaker 2: chance when I live back in Arkansas and Oklahoma in Texas,

1463
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:15,719
Speaker 2: I got a chance to see some of his stuff,

1464
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:19,080
Speaker 2: and he built you know, in today's world, he would

1465
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:21,120
Speaker 2: have been able to build golf courses for almost nothing.

1466
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:24,080
Speaker 2: He was a great router of golf courses and and

1467
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:27,719
Speaker 2: did things in the depression that that is probably equal

1468
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 2: to her or greater than what we did through our

1469
01:16:30,439 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 2: own great recession. So I'm gonna say, Perry Maxwell, all.

1470
01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:40,519
Speaker 1: Right, what's your favorite design feature that flies under the radar?

1471
01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:48,160
Speaker 2: Chocolate drops? I think that I'm a guy that that

1472
01:16:48,280 --> 01:16:49,800
Speaker 2: when you go see a place like gardens of the

1473
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:54,559
Speaker 2: golf club, or even go to Huntercombe and and see

1474
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:57,720
Speaker 2: see these old school kind of you know, you excavate

1475
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:00,720
Speaker 2: and then put a pile of dirt and it just

1476
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:03,040
Speaker 2: has fescue growing on the top of it. And there's

1477
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:04,679
Speaker 2: three or four or five of them in that area,

1478
01:17:05,120 --> 01:17:08,080
Speaker 2: and they become part of the the aesthetic of the

1479
01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:11,040
Speaker 2: whole course and the hazard and the strategy. So those

1480
01:17:11,200 --> 01:17:13,720
Speaker 2: I'm a big I love stream features and I love

1481
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:16,679
Speaker 2: rock walls. I love things that are able to make

1482
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 2: something look interesting and authentic and maybe old. And I

1483
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:23,240
Speaker 2: think a good old fashioned chocolate drop does that.

1484
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 1: You like artificial rock walls.

1485
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:30,439
Speaker 2: Well, if they're done in a way we did these.

1486
01:17:30,560 --> 01:17:33,559
Speaker 2: We did these series. I like them when they're done

1487
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:35,559
Speaker 2: when someone thinks they one hundred years old. So we

1488
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:40,439
Speaker 2: was getting that. I was helping that. We did a

1489
01:17:40,479 --> 01:17:43,719
Speaker 2: rock wall behind the first screen and along the second

1490
01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 2: tier at Meadowbrook. I did a lava lava rock wall

1491
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 2: at at st at Sanjalo. We imported this lava from

1492
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:55,280
Speaker 2: like three miles away, and everybody who sees it thinks

1493
01:17:55,280 --> 01:17:58,320
Speaker 2: it's been there one hundred years. So we work really

1494
01:17:58,320 --> 01:17:59,559
Speaker 2: hard to make it look cool.

1495
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:04,120
Speaker 1: Nothing drives me more than seeing like a brand new

1496
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:08,280
Speaker 1: rock wall that like you can tell was just installed

1497
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:11,799
Speaker 1: and just as like screams like waste of money.

1498
01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:14,559
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah. So so one of the best parts

1499
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:16,799
Speaker 2: of this rock wall that we did at San Hollo

1500
01:18:17,240 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 2: is we stacked them all up and then we'd go

1501
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:25,880
Speaker 2: periodically with an excavator and push it over like yes,

1502
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:28,640
Speaker 2: that's right, it fell over right there. So and we

1503
01:18:28,760 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 2: go to the next spot and then we took sand

1504
01:18:30,400 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 2: and blew it up over the top of it. You know,

1505
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:34,559
Speaker 2: we crossed one of the holes at San Hullo right

1506
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:36,280
Speaker 2: in front of the second tee and the links course,

1507
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:39,599
Speaker 2: so it was right in front of the tees, so

1508
01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:42,880
Speaker 2: the average guy could skip it over the wall. So

1509
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:45,000
Speaker 2: so we actually piled up and ramped up the sand

1510
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:46,599
Speaker 2: as if it was a dune that kind of blew

1511
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:49,000
Speaker 2: over the wall.

1512
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:52,320
Speaker 1: All Right, you ready for overrated, underrated?

1513
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:56,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess, so let's do this, all right, cross bunkers,

1514
01:18:58,920 --> 01:19:03,320
Speaker 2: cross bunkers. Well, they I would call them underrated in

1515
01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:06,920
Speaker 2: the fact that people just don't appreciate their why they're there,

1516
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:10,880
Speaker 2: and it's kind of a tended it's kind of a

1517
01:19:10,920 --> 01:19:12,960
Speaker 2: signal on what's happened with the game of golf, where

1518
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:15,280
Speaker 2: where if a cross bunker is one hundred and eighty

1519
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:19,080
Speaker 2: yards off the tee and everyone hits into it, the

1520
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:22,799
Speaker 2: idea that you should have played around it has been lost.

1521
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:25,559
Speaker 2: So I guess I'll call cross bunkers underrated because they

1522
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:28,080
Speaker 2: for a period of time they just all but disappeared

1523
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:32,640
Speaker 2: on our golf courses. But slowly, with this restoration, you

1524
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 2: kind of you know where restoration has been going, and

1525
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 2: you're seeing a lot of them come back.

1526
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:41,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, they I feel like a lot of

1527
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:44,719
Speaker 1: them fell fell to mowing lines shrinking.

1528
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 2: Also, well, I think a lot of them are on

1529
01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:49,479
Speaker 2: the tee. But the ones that I'm having some really

1530
01:19:49,479 --> 01:19:51,920
Speaker 2: good success bringing back are the ones that are short

1531
01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:56,360
Speaker 2: of the greens. And when when golfers actually see that

1532
01:19:56,479 --> 01:20:00,040
Speaker 2: they're there to distort, you know, and that that the

1533
01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:03,400
Speaker 2: better player has an equal problem with seeing where that

1534
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:07,280
Speaker 2: where it heads, where how far it is from the green,

1535
01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:09,240
Speaker 2: and whether or not they know it's further away, but

1536
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:11,960
Speaker 2: yet it still kind of gets them thinking. And so

1537
01:20:12,439 --> 01:20:14,920
Speaker 2: that fifty yard bunker off of the green, on the

1538
01:20:15,160 --> 01:20:17,360
Speaker 2: you know, off of the green, and the approach bunkers,

1539
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:19,679
Speaker 2: I'm starting to see those starting to gain some really

1540
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:21,559
Speaker 2: good traction, which I'm really happy about.

1541
01:20:22,240 --> 01:20:26,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I lost my yardage gun a few months ago,

1542
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:30,200
Speaker 1: and I'm sorry about that. Well, I to tell you

1543
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:33,760
Speaker 1: the truth, I've like really enjoyed playing golf without it,

1544
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:36,959
Speaker 1: Like especially when I got to new golf courses because.

1545
01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:40,080
Speaker 2: I don't have one of those.

1546
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:40,479
Speaker 1: I get tricked all the time.

1547
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:44,320
Speaker 2: Well, I think one of the things that we could

1548
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:46,360
Speaker 2: do in the in the in the rules of golf

1549
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:48,600
Speaker 2: as we start to bring on this new ball or

1550
01:20:48,640 --> 01:20:52,559
Speaker 2: whatever's going to happen with technology and distance, is it

1551
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:56,240
Speaker 2: is to allow or to try to promote you know, six,

1552
01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:58,640
Speaker 2: six club, nine club something, you know twelve, you know,

1553
01:20:58,640 --> 01:21:01,360
Speaker 2: eleven clubs, something other than four team. So you get

1554
01:21:01,360 --> 01:21:04,200
Speaker 2: into the tweeter shots where you're actually hitting a seven

1555
01:21:04,240 --> 01:21:06,519
Speaker 2: iron from one hundred and forty yards, And when you

1556
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:08,800
Speaker 2: start doing some of those things, those four bunkers really

1557
01:21:08,840 --> 01:21:11,880
Speaker 2: become interesting and you actually use them because you know

1558
01:21:11,960 --> 01:21:14,040
Speaker 2: why they're there. You just hit them over the top

1559
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:16,840
Speaker 2: of it and it runs it out. So I love

1560
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 2: It's one of the things as a golfer, I try

1561
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:21,000
Speaker 2: to do more of it. You know, it's harder nowadays

1562
01:21:21,000 --> 01:21:23,640
Speaker 2: because it's rare when well, I shouldn't say rare, but

1563
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:25,920
Speaker 2: it You know, a lot of golf courses don't well

1564
01:21:26,000 --> 01:21:28,439
Speaker 2: for the runouts anymore. We're trying to get that change.

1565
01:21:28,479 --> 01:21:32,439
Speaker 1: But anyway, yeah, I mean, you catch that backside of

1566
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:35,080
Speaker 1: a bunker that's twenty yards short and you get the

1567
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:38,640
Speaker 1: it's like a springboard that kicks it right to the greens.

1568
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:40,559
Speaker 1: That's one of the cool things I feel like has

1569
01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:43,559
Speaker 1: been lost with the way the games changed in terms

1570
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:47,200
Speaker 1: of the aerial game, is that all these like especially

1571
01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:49,280
Speaker 1: when you go to these Golden Age courses, all these

1572
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:52,000
Speaker 1: cool little slopes that are short of the green that

1573
01:21:52,520 --> 01:21:55,840
Speaker 1: just don't get it used anymore, or if they haven't been,

1574
01:21:56,040 --> 01:21:58,439
Speaker 1: you know, if the mo lines are off or just

1575
01:21:58,479 --> 01:21:59,439
Speaker 1: sitting there and rough.

1576
01:22:00,160 --> 01:22:02,439
Speaker 2: That's right. Well. One of the things that I feel

1577
01:22:03,040 --> 01:22:06,080
Speaker 2: really proud about is the people that have opened their

1578
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:07,760
Speaker 2: minds to some of the features we did up at

1579
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:11,360
Speaker 2: Meadowbrook is that the guys that are guys and gals

1580
01:22:11,360 --> 01:22:14,640
Speaker 2: that are struggling are are recovering around the greens like

1581
01:22:14,680 --> 01:22:17,800
Speaker 2: they always do. Just a sandwich and try to get

1582
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:20,000
Speaker 2: it up and stop near the hole. But when you

1583
01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:23,720
Speaker 2: start seeing the different you know, different backstops and the

1584
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:27,360
Speaker 2: places for it to feed down into different pins people.

1585
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:29,200
Speaker 2: You know. I had a guy the other day say, hey,

1586
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:32,120
Speaker 2: and you have played Meadowbrook last fall. You want you

1587
01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:34,519
Speaker 2: want to know what I thought of it? So yeah, yeah,

1588
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:37,559
Speaker 2: of course, he says, I thought it was fun? Is

1589
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:39,200
Speaker 2: that what you? Is that? What you? Is that all right?

1590
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:41,759
Speaker 2: That I thought it was fun? I'm like, heck, yeah,

1591
01:22:42,000 --> 01:22:44,920
Speaker 2: that's exactly right. And the guys who open their minds

1592
01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:46,320
Speaker 2: of those types of shots are just fun.

1593
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:50,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a I mean, like I like to hit

1594
01:22:50,680 --> 01:22:53,880
Speaker 1: like punch drivers on when I play a Burrit's hole

1595
01:22:54,080 --> 01:22:56,040
Speaker 1: that's like a rainer now, just so I can see

1596
01:22:56,040 --> 01:22:59,160
Speaker 1: the ball run through the dire yeah, and and run

1597
01:22:59,240 --> 01:23:01,120
Speaker 1: up to the bat like a lot of times I

1598
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:05,360
Speaker 1: end up making a bogie because it's or but I

1599
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:07,600
Speaker 1: don't really care because like I have hockey with that.

1600
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:12,240
Speaker 2: If you played it, you tried it, absolutely better better.

1601
01:23:12,360 --> 01:23:17,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all right. Next, overrated underrated car paths.

1602
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:23,320
Speaker 2: Car pass Well, it's certainly not underrated. I'd call them overrated,

1603
01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:25,640
Speaker 2: all right. I think you're I think you're finding a

1604
01:23:25,640 --> 01:23:30,599
Speaker 2: lot more people being open to other alternatives. I think

1605
01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:34,240
Speaker 2: people people get what we're what we're coming where we're

1606
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:37,400
Speaker 2: coming from from a design standpoint, more more than just

1607
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:40,320
Speaker 2: a few years ago. So I think that's certainly overrated,

1608
01:23:40,360 --> 01:23:42,479
Speaker 2: and I think it's trending in the right direction.

1609
01:23:43,400 --> 01:23:46,760
Speaker 1: I think my pet peeve, like the ultimate one that

1610
01:23:47,200 --> 01:23:50,280
Speaker 1: bugs me the most is when you see a car

1611
01:23:50,400 --> 01:23:53,920
Speaker 1: path at like a old school golf course that's running

1612
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:55,320
Speaker 1: down where the fairway should be.

1613
01:23:57,080 --> 01:24:00,240
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny you mentioned that with what what

1614
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:03,360
Speaker 2: comes right to mind is one of the courses we

1615
01:24:03,400 --> 01:24:07,360
Speaker 2: went to go visit in England was Swinley Forest, and

1616
01:24:07,400 --> 01:24:09,479
Speaker 2: I guess I shouldn't pick on Swindley, but you know

1617
01:24:09,479 --> 01:24:12,160
Speaker 2: a lot of those UK courses, they when you think

1618
01:24:12,200 --> 01:24:16,040
Speaker 2: about how carpaths have evolved, they didn't have car pass

1619
01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:18,720
Speaker 2: so then all of a sudden people started driving these

1620
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:21,280
Speaker 2: buggies and they all drove in the exact same spot,

1621
01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:24,720
Speaker 2: and then they drove in a straight line. So oftentimes

1622
01:24:24,720 --> 01:24:26,439
Speaker 2: they go right down the middle of the fairway. And

1623
01:24:26,479 --> 01:24:28,439
Speaker 2: then what do you do next, Well, there's a path there,

1624
01:24:28,479 --> 01:24:30,599
Speaker 2: we better put some paving, or it might better put

1625
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:33,200
Speaker 2: some gravel. As opposed to someone saying, you know what,

1626
01:24:33,240 --> 01:24:34,800
Speaker 2: we don't want them to go there, we wanted to

1627
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:37,559
Speaker 2: go over here, so we don't see the path, and

1628
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:39,200
Speaker 2: so a lot of times you get to these old courses,

1629
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:42,080
Speaker 2: the car pass are in no different place than where

1630
01:24:42,120 --> 01:24:44,599
Speaker 2: it was when they first got their first car pet,

1631
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:48,080
Speaker 2: you know, first golf carts, and so you know, the

1632
01:24:49,320 --> 01:24:51,360
Speaker 2: one of our committee members said, yeah, and you talk

1633
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:52,880
Speaker 2: about car pass but look at this place. This is

1634
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:55,160
Speaker 2: a Swinley forest. They're right in the middle of the fairway.

1635
01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:59,240
Speaker 2: So but I agree with you, the less you see

1636
01:24:59,240 --> 01:25:00,720
Speaker 2: a car pass, better would it be.

1637
01:25:01,160 --> 01:25:03,360
Speaker 1: I just was thinking about this as like, could you

1638
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:06,000
Speaker 1: go no car path but then just change like you know,

1639
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:09,439
Speaker 1: the signed and would that work or would that just

1640
01:25:09,520 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 1: not work? You know, like I think it Yeah, never

1641
01:25:13,240 --> 01:25:13,880
Speaker 1: would it work?

1642
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:17,240
Speaker 2: Well no, I mean it would work in some places.

1643
01:25:17,240 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 2: But I mean the reason why there's car passes because

1644
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:21,400
Speaker 2: everyone drives in the same exact spot and it gets

1645
01:25:21,439 --> 01:25:24,040
Speaker 2: compacted and it wears out the turf and then next

1646
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:26,120
Speaker 2: thing you know, it has a low spot and it

1647
01:25:26,120 --> 01:25:30,960
Speaker 2: becomes mud. So you know, there's car pass for reasons

1648
01:25:30,960 --> 01:25:33,000
Speaker 2: because we have a thing called a car path or

1649
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:36,440
Speaker 2: golf cart. So as long as we have golf carts,

1650
01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 2: there's going to have to be passed. And I think

1651
01:25:38,479 --> 01:25:40,519
Speaker 2: if as long as we just you know, there's a

1652
01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:42,760
Speaker 2: way to do them well, and I think we It's

1653
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:44,560
Speaker 2: one of the things we spend an examinant amount of

1654
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:47,679
Speaker 2: time thinking about, probably more than we'd like to. I'd

1655
01:25:47,680 --> 01:25:50,639
Speaker 2: hoped one day not to do a golf project without

1656
01:25:50,640 --> 01:25:51,120
Speaker 2: car pass.

1657
01:25:51,560 --> 01:25:53,080
Speaker 1: Do you think it could work at a at a

1658
01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:57,679
Speaker 1: community golf level, no car path, no carts golf course.

1659
01:25:59,160 --> 01:26:02,120
Speaker 2: Well, you certainly could try. I think ultimately you're gonna

1660
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:04,559
Speaker 2: end up getting into something where everyone rides in the

1661
01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:06,240
Speaker 2: exact same spot. You'd end up having to time.

1662
01:26:06,280 --> 01:26:08,120
Speaker 1: I'm saying no carts completely.

1663
01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:12,680
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, yeah, I could. I think there's got

1664
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:14,880
Speaker 2: to be a commitment to to kind of going back

1665
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:18,400
Speaker 2: to the the caddies and golf push carts to trolleys,

1666
01:26:18,439 --> 01:26:20,760
Speaker 2: if you will. You know that that's the other thing too.

1667
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:24,240
Speaker 2: A pet peeve is this idea that that push carts

1668
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:28,320
Speaker 2: or trolleys are are munique golf, that they're not, they're

1669
01:26:28,360 --> 01:26:31,240
Speaker 2: not worthy of the top clubs in the country, and

1670
01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:33,760
Speaker 2: and that I think that it all kind of goes

1671
01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:38,000
Speaker 2: to this erosion of of of the caddies and walking

1672
01:26:38,080 --> 01:26:41,320
Speaker 2: and and you pushing your card, carrying your bag, those

1673
01:26:41,360 --> 01:26:43,800
Speaker 2: types of things. So I think there have to be

1674
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:48,320
Speaker 2: a concerted effort to be more, to be more health

1675
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:51,040
Speaker 2: conscious and exercise and really utilize the fact of carrying

1676
01:26:51,040 --> 01:26:53,080
Speaker 2: your bag is that I could workout. And that's what

1677
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:55,280
Speaker 2: the only workout I get these days is carrying my bag.

1678
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:58,040
Speaker 2: You got a cool little McKinsey bag. I just I'm

1679
01:26:58,080 --> 01:27:00,400
Speaker 2: not almost always the only one walk and whenever everyone

1680
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:02,040
Speaker 2: else is on a golf cart and I'm like, well,

1681
01:27:02,120 --> 01:27:04,680
Speaker 2: this is my exercise. Yeah.

1682
01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:08,599
Speaker 1: I was really tired on my recent trip with Zach

1683
01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:12,760
Speaker 1: through northern California, and you know, I played an exorbitant

1684
01:27:12,760 --> 01:27:16,360
Speaker 1: amount of golf over a few days and and Zach's like,

1685
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:18,360
Speaker 1: he should just he should just ride. We were at

1686
01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:20,960
Speaker 1: mont Ray Peninsula Club and I was like, you know, man,

1687
01:27:21,080 --> 01:27:25,600
Speaker 1: I don't think I can. My my listeners would be

1688
01:27:25,680 --> 01:27:28,280
Speaker 1: upset with me if I if they saw me riding

1689
01:27:28,360 --> 01:27:31,559
Speaker 1: on a seaside course on a seventy degree day.

1690
01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:34,360
Speaker 2: Here's a model that I think needs to be thought

1691
01:27:34,400 --> 01:27:39,160
Speaker 2: of more. Is a golf cart with four, four or

1692
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:44,000
Speaker 2: five places for carts where the where someone drives it. Yeah,

1693
01:27:44,040 --> 01:27:47,559
Speaker 2: and and and that way, you know, someone's not you know,

1694
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:50,400
Speaker 2: you're not using two or four caddies, and you got

1695
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:52,680
Speaker 2: a golf cart and then someone's driving it where they

1696
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:54,720
Speaker 2: are supposed to drive it. That's part of the reason

1697
01:27:54,760 --> 01:27:56,559
Speaker 2: why golf carts you get in trouble is because you

1698
01:27:56,600 --> 01:28:00,080
Speaker 2: just can't control where people drive carts these days to

1699
01:28:00,160 --> 01:28:03,559
Speaker 2: drive them everywhere. So that's where you have these issues.

1700
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:06,400
Speaker 2: But I played a little part three course here. You know,

1701
01:28:06,400 --> 01:28:09,080
Speaker 2: they funneled us right into a golf cart on a

1702
01:28:09,080 --> 01:28:12,240
Speaker 2: Part three course and it was a four seater, and

1703
01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:15,320
Speaker 2: my buddies were like, yeah, a force seater, and we

1704
01:28:15,360 --> 01:28:17,000
Speaker 2: put all of our bags on there and I walked

1705
01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:21,080
Speaker 2: alongside of them. And so I think we do have

1706
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:23,120
Speaker 2: an opportunity to kind of look outside the box. I

1707
01:28:23,160 --> 01:28:24,880
Speaker 2: think if there's more of a concerted effort to do

1708
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:27,479
Speaker 2: something other than just ram everybody in cards, I think

1709
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:29,120
Speaker 2: I think there's things that can work.

1710
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:33,400
Speaker 1: Last overrated underrated music on the golf.

1711
01:28:33,160 --> 01:28:39,479
Speaker 2: Course man totally underrated. I think I've never been You

1712
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:41,519
Speaker 2: would never have thought that that would have brought up

1713
01:28:41,560 --> 01:28:47,000
Speaker 2: so many passionate feelings about whether or not loud music

1714
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:49,560
Speaker 2: on a courses is good or bad, you know, to me,

1715
01:28:50,800 --> 01:28:52,800
Speaker 2: I love it. You know. Of course, it's a little

1716
01:28:52,800 --> 01:28:54,479
Speaker 2: harder to be having music on the course when you

1717
01:28:54,479 --> 01:28:57,479
Speaker 2: don't have a golf cart. You know, someone carrying a

1718
01:28:57,479 --> 01:28:59,559
Speaker 2: speaker along with you is a little bit different, kind

1719
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:03,400
Speaker 2: of muffled in your bag. But headphones, I think it's

1720
01:29:03,400 --> 01:29:05,360
Speaker 2: an integral part, and I think it's just a matter

1721
01:29:05,360 --> 01:29:08,840
Speaker 2: of time before we start to see it everywhere. Yeah, I.

1722
01:29:10,320 --> 01:29:11,240
Speaker 1: What do you listen to?

1723
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:15,680
Speaker 2: What music do I listen to? Yeah? What would be

1724
01:29:15,720 --> 01:29:19,479
Speaker 2: your goat? You know, I'm still on the twenty one

1725
01:29:19,479 --> 01:29:22,559
Speaker 2: pilots recently, so I can't get off of that. But

1726
01:29:22,600 --> 01:29:25,600
Speaker 2: I'm an eighties guy. So I go back to YouTube,

1727
01:29:26,680 --> 01:29:30,680
Speaker 2: I go back to Midnight Oil. That's a not a

1728
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:31,120
Speaker 2: good one.

1729
01:29:33,560 --> 01:29:34,320
Speaker 1: Chili Peppers.

1730
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:35,600
Speaker 2: What's that?

1731
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 1: It's chili peppers? Your time there coming up?

1732
01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:42,320
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, I like chili peppers. That's not a not

1733
01:29:42,360 --> 01:29:44,240
Speaker 2: a go to, but it's definitely in my music list.

1734
01:29:45,160 --> 01:29:49,439
Speaker 1: That's hey, the eighties. Yeah, I've always wanted I got

1735
01:29:49,439 --> 01:29:52,680
Speaker 1: to do an architect comparison to bands from like the

1736
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:53,479
Speaker 1: Golden Age.

1737
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:56,000
Speaker 2: Well, you know, one of the things that I that

1738
01:29:56,120 --> 01:29:58,920
Speaker 2: I think is so I was at a conference through

1739
01:29:58,960 --> 01:30:02,280
Speaker 2: Marriotte Golf the other day, and so I was a

1740
01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:04,639
Speaker 2: speaker on one of their panels, and every time one

1741
01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 2: of their guys got up on stage, they picked their

1742
01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:12,120
Speaker 2: own entrance music. And I'm like, that is awesome, and

1743
01:30:12,160 --> 01:30:14,800
Speaker 2: it's like, we don't have we have so many opportunities

1744
01:30:14,880 --> 01:30:17,280
Speaker 2: to make our to create our own entrance music. Why

1745
01:30:17,280 --> 01:30:19,000
Speaker 2: don't we do that? So I was thinking the next

1746
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:21,040
Speaker 2: interview that I have, I was gonna try to figure

1747
01:30:21,040 --> 01:30:23,760
Speaker 2: out how to play and you know, enter Sandman from

1748
01:30:23,760 --> 01:30:25,800
Speaker 2: Metallica or something like that is my entrance music.

1749
01:30:26,040 --> 01:30:28,240
Speaker 1: The PGA tours doing it at Zurich.

1750
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:30,320
Speaker 2: Now there it is. Yeah, se.

1751
01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:36,400
Speaker 1: Becoming more and more prevalent. So hey, Andy, thanks so

1752
01:30:36,479 --> 01:30:39,639
Speaker 1: much for your time. It's been a good talk, and

1753
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:41,800
Speaker 1: we'll have to have you on again, all.

1754
01:30:41,760 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 2: Right, anytime. Man. I enjoy what you're doing. You're doing

1755
01:30:45,160 --> 01:30:47,080
Speaker 2: it the right way, I think, and I'm honored to

1756
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:48,280
Speaker 2: be a part of it. So thanks again.

1757
01:30:49,120 --> 01:30:51,680
Speaker 1: You've been listening to the fried Egg podcast.

1758
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:53,680
Speaker 2: We do the digging for you.