WEBVTT - The Rosenbergs

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>Chuck and this is Stuff you should know the podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right that we didn't start the fire edition. It's

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<v Speaker 1>funny because that may have been the first time I've

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<v Speaker 1>heard about the Rosenbergs. Rosenberg's H bomb Sugar Ray, panmun jump.

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<v Speaker 2>What was the last part? I've never known what the

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<v Speaker 2>heck he was saying.

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<v Speaker 1>P A n m u n j o m one

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<v Speaker 1>word pan muon JOm, Brando, the King and I and

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<v Speaker 1>the catcher in.

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<v Speaker 2>There all right, back up? What is panmu JOm?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I don't know, buddy, you'll have to listen to that.

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<v Speaker 1>We didn't start the fire History podcast because I was

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<v Speaker 1>like earlier today, I was like, oh man, what a

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<v Speaker 1>great basis for a history podcast. No, yeah, of course

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<v Speaker 1>it was a thing. Know, it's got a shelf life

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<v Speaker 1>because they I guess, went through all of them from

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<v Speaker 1>one to twenty twenty three.

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<v Speaker 2>So was each each lyric its own episode.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I mean I would, I mean, that's

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<v Speaker 1>how I would do it, because you can get a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of mileage out of that song.

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<v Speaker 2>For sure. That's really cool. That's off.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah I didn't check it out, but.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I didn't check it out.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a man. Surely they didn't do one each because

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<v Speaker 1>there's so many references and only ran for two years

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<v Speaker 1>unless yeah, Daily Show.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe they just got bored after like halfway through they forget.

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<v Speaker 1>This anyway, this is a that's Billy Joel's worst song, probably,

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<v Speaker 1>And this is a this is a podcast about the Rosenbergs.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, what was his best song? And if you don't

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<v Speaker 2>say Uptown Girl, you're wrong?

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<v Speaker 1>Probably Miami twenty seventeen.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even know what that is.

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<v Speaker 1>I've seen the lights go out on Broadway. That's a

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<v Speaker 1>great song. But I'm a Billy Joel, like super I'm

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<v Speaker 1>a stand So are you really?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you didn't know that?

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<v Speaker 2>No, I had no idea.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Glasshouses was the first record ever bought that. I've

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<v Speaker 1>seen him live like a dozen times.

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<v Speaker 2>I had no idea.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I like, it's kind of cool to listen to

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<v Speaker 1>Billy Joel now. But I suffered many decades of people

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<v Speaker 1>making fun of me because I would like, go see

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<v Speaker 1>a Pavement show and then put on Billy Joel the

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<v Speaker 1>next day.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, people just stink sometimes.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey man, you have a variety of tastes, as.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you, for sure, and people should be left alone

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<v Speaker 2>and not have their tastes made fun of.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'll go to bat for Billy Joel in any

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<v Speaker 1>day of the week, my friend.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll tell you who maybe should have been left alone,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's Ethel Rosenberg.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I guess we should give us sort of an

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<v Speaker 1>overview of this before we dig in.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, fair enough.

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<v Speaker 1>So the Rosenberg's, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were a married couple.

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<v Speaker 1>They lived in New York City, were from New York City,

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<v Speaker 1>and they were convicted of committing espionage in nineteen fifty

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<v Speaker 1>one and executed and put to death, which was This

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<v Speaker 1>is a very big deal for a few reasons. One

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<v Speaker 1>is because a lot of historians basically say, like, I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think Ethel did this, and she was probably innocent,

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<v Speaker 1>even though Julius did, And a lot of people say,

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<v Speaker 1>and even if he did, and she might have known

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<v Speaker 1>about it, Like executing these two people with two young

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<v Speaker 1>sons when no one else was getting executed for this

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<v Speaker 1>at the time, was a travesty of justice.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And as we'll see, they got caught up in

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<v Speaker 2>Cold War communists aastaria and we're basically put into a

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<v Speaker 2>deadly game of chicken essentially, is what it amounts to.

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<v Speaker 2>And totally it's one of those blemishes on the Department

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<v Speaker 2>of Justice that's never really gonna go away that they

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<v Speaker 2>did this. We'll see, we'll explain, but it's just a

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<v Speaker 2>sad story all around. We want to say, Julius Rosenberg

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<v Speaker 2>definitely was a spy for the Soviet Union, an enthusiastic

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<v Speaker 2>one whose spy career spanned more than a decade. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>Ethyl probably was in some way, shape or format at

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<v Speaker 2>least abetting it, if not some way minorly supporting it.

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<v Speaker 2>She may have also played an even bigger role. But

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<v Speaker 2>I personally do not think that both of them were innocent.

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<v Speaker 2>Some people say that, just based on the research I've done,

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<v Speaker 2>it just seems clear as day that they weren't both innocent.

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<v Speaker 2>But to put them both to death. They were not

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<v Speaker 2>the only spies who were caught and convicted during the

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<v Speaker 2>Cold War. They were the only spies caught and convicted

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<v Speaker 2>during the Cold War who were executed. And that's what

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<v Speaker 2>makes the whole thing so significant.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure. So let's go back and talk a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit about their early life. We can kind of

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<v Speaker 1>re see this first part, but I mentioned they were

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<v Speaker 1>both born in New York. Ethel was born there in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen fifteen, had a few brothers, went to Seward Park

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<v Speaker 1>High School. She was big into theater, and this would

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<v Speaker 1>come up because she loved to sing and dance, and

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<v Speaker 1>later on, when she started to get a little political

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<v Speaker 1>and was going to union events, she would like perform sometimes,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess to you know, just make it a little

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<v Speaker 1>more fun, Like, Hey, we're at the union meeting, and

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<v Speaker 1>now here's a song from Ethel. I guess at the

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<v Speaker 1>time greenngrass.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the Communist blues with a nice little communist tap dance.

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<v Speaker 1>Julius was also born in New York. He's a few

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<v Speaker 1>years younger, born in nineteen eighteen to Polish immigrants, and

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<v Speaker 1>he also went to Seward Park High School. But I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think they knew each other there. It seemed like

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<v Speaker 1>they met when he was at City College and she

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<v Speaker 1>was working as a secretary.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and by this time when they met they had

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<v Speaker 2>both their interests in communism. It definitely blossomed. Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>think Julius is even more than Ethel's by them, but

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<v Speaker 2>Ethel I think it participated in a strike and was

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<v Speaker 2>fired from her workplace for participating in a strike, and

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<v Speaker 2>she was like, I think I'm into workers' rights now. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So when they met, it was at a charity benefit

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<v Speaker 2>for the International Siemens Union SEA M E N and

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<v Speaker 2>so they were both like, I'm a communist, you're a communist.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's get together and make little communist babies.

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<v Speaker 1>And do the communist shuffle.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he was definitely more into it. He joined a

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<v Speaker 1>group called the Steinmetz Society, who was an affiliate of

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<v Speaker 1>the Young Communist League, and he had a couple of

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<v Speaker 1>friends that are gonna come up later in a sort

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<v Speaker 1>of a small issue, but just put pins in the

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<v Speaker 1>names Morton Sobel and Max Elector, who were buddies he

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<v Speaker 1>made while he was sort of in this affiliated with

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<v Speaker 1>a Young Communist League group society.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, And they had very similar ideas to his.

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<v Speaker 2>And in nineteen forty did you say that he trained

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<v Speaker 2>as an electrical engineer. That's what he studied.

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<v Speaker 1>I know, but you're right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he was hired as an engineer for the US

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<v Speaker 2>Army Signal Corps. And when he was hired, he clapped

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<v Speaker 2>his hands and rubbed him together and said, what can

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<v Speaker 2>I steal and pass along a secrets to the Soviet Union?

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<v Speaker 1>Essentially, yeah, basically he had one miner brush with the FBI.

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<v Speaker 1>In nineteen forty one, he was called into what's called

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<v Speaker 1>a loyalty meeting. I guess just sort of sniffed people

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<v Speaker 1>off the case and see how loyal they were to

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<v Speaker 1>the United States, because they found a couple of mentions

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<v Speaker 1>of Ethel in the FBI files, one that she had

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<v Speaker 1>signed a petition for a communist city council candidate and

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<v Speaker 1>another that was just someone who gave a tip that

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<v Speaker 1>accused her of having Communist leanings. But he was like,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not even into politics that much, which is a lie,

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<v Speaker 1>let alone communism, which was also a lie. And so

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<v Speaker 1>they pretty much dropped the case, and in nineteen forty

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<v Speaker 1>two they moved to the Lower east Side to the

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<v Speaker 1>Knickerbocker Village and started having those baby communists, Like you said, is.

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<v Speaker 2>The Knickerbocker Village still around? Is that like a neighborhood

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<v Speaker 2>in the Lower east Side.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't hear it referenced. I mean, I'm sure you

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<v Speaker 1>could tell where it was, but I don't. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know if there are any modern references or signage or

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<v Speaker 1>anything like that, or it might be wrong, but I've

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<v Speaker 1>never seen it.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe it's the KBV that all the cool people in

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<v Speaker 2>New York talk about. What is that Knickerbocker village? Gotcha? Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>so we've we've laid the foundation. There's Julius, there's Ethel.

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<v Speaker 2>Their kids have come along. They're both very loyal Communists,

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<v Speaker 2>especially as we'll see, and Julius's big time into spying

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<v Speaker 2>and he became a spy. It's not actually clear how

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<v Speaker 2>that happened. To tell you the truth, there's many different accounts.

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<v Speaker 2>One is Julius's account, which is that he never spied

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<v Speaker 2>and it was framed by the government. Yeah, that's demonstrably untrue.

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<v Speaker 2>His brother in law, David's account, which will get into

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<v Speaker 2>more later, but he basically said that Julius would like

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<v Speaker 2>He actually went so far as to go to the

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<v Speaker 2>Soviet embassy in New York and said, Hey, can I

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<v Speaker 2>do some spying for you guys. I'm a big fan,

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<v Speaker 2>like he would he would basically just he wanted to spy.

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<v Speaker 2>He was putting himself out there. And then there are

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of others that are probably likelier than either

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<v Speaker 2>of the other two.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, one Soviet agent named Alexander Feksilov said he was

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<v Speaker 1>just introduced to another Soviet agent at a Labor Day

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<v Speaker 1>rally in Central Park. His name was Semon Semyonov. And

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<v Speaker 1>then other people said, now it was another intelligence person.

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<v Speaker 1>So we don't know how he got into it. But

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<v Speaker 1>to set the stage of why he might have done this,

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<v Speaker 1>it was a time in the nineteen forties when the

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<v Speaker 1>US and the Soviets were allied against the Nazis, and

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<v Speaker 1>there are historians that say, like Julius didn't think he

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<v Speaker 1>was betraying the US. He thought he was fighting fascism

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<v Speaker 1>when he sort of started getting into spying for the Soviets.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know about that, but that's what some people say.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's the most polite way you could

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<v Speaker 2>put it. Another way to say it is maybe be

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<v Speaker 2>betraying the United States was just an incidental part of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a good way.

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<v Speaker 2>But I saw that one of the things he was

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<v Speaker 2>well known for. It's like he hated fascism so much

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<v Speaker 2>that he would be seen walking down the stream and

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<v Speaker 2>be like, I hate you fascism and he'd be punching

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<v Speaker 2>the air. Yeah, he hated fascism, So that was one

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<v Speaker 2>of his big motives for sure. Yeah, and in nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>forty two, so he's hired in nineteen forty I guess

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<v Speaker 2>he laid a little bit of groundwork for people trusting him.

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<v Speaker 2>In nineteen forty two, he started passing weapons information to

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<v Speaker 2>the Soviets, and some pretty big ones too. One of

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<v Speaker 2>the ones I saw was a proximity fuse, and that

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<v Speaker 2>is a tiny radio that is used in anti aircraft

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<v Speaker 2>guns that basically tells the anti aircraft gun okay, that

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<v Speaker 2>plane is now in range to do maximum damage to it. Fire. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's definitely something you want to have on your anti

0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:09.520
<v Speaker 2>aircraft gun. And he passed that along to the Soviets.

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<v Speaker 2>That was just one example, and he was He was

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<v Speaker 2>first handled by Semyon Semyonov, who you mentioned earlier. He

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<v Speaker 2>got handed off then to Alexander Feklisov, who you also

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned earlier. And so those twos account of how he

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<v Speaker 2>got into spying are probably the likeliest because they were

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<v Speaker 2>his spy masters when he was a spy.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, agreed also during this time, and this is pretty key.

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<v Speaker 1>He was trying to recruit other people who had that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of same political leanings as him and recruit them.

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<v Speaker 1>And one of those people was the aforementioned brother in law.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is David Greenglass and this is Ethel's Ethel's brother.

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<v Speaker 1>So in March nineteen forty five he was fired from

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<v Speaker 1>the Signal Corps. The FBI said, wait a minute, you've

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<v Speaker 1>got a Communist Party membership card and it's got your

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<v Speaker 1>name on it. And he was like, oh, okay, so

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<v Speaker 1>I don't work there anymore. I'm going to start up

0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:07.120
<v Speaker 1>my own business with Ethel's brothers, David who I just mentioned,

0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:11.000
<v Speaker 1>and Bernie, and it's called Pitt Machine Products. And that

0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.880
<v Speaker 1>did not go well. I guess that just wasn't a

0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:17.559
<v Speaker 1>good business. I think David accused Julius of being a

0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.920
<v Speaker 1>bad business person. He accused David of being a bad foreman.

0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.560
<v Speaker 1>And by nineteen forty eight the company was almost not

0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:25.560
<v Speaker 1>a company anymore.

0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:28.719
<v Speaker 2>No, it was just down to the original investors. I

0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:33.400
<v Speaker 2>just made scare quotes who were Julius and Ethel's two brothers,

0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:37.559
<v Speaker 2>David and Bernie. Right, So another big part of this problem,

0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.520
<v Speaker 2>I guess we should say what we're describing now is

0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:44.040
<v Speaker 2>animosity that kind of grew up. Yeah, between David and

0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:48.959
<v Speaker 2>Julius specifically, there was just some tension, even though they

0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.960
<v Speaker 2>still remained in one another's lives, highly involved in one

0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:57.560
<v Speaker 2>another's lives. Some historians point to this specific instance of

0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:00.440
<v Speaker 2>them going into business together, which is, yeah, all a

0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:03.920
<v Speaker 2>bad idea to go into business with family. Uh, across

0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:09.160
<v Speaker 2>the board. Okay again, we'll go back to my original motto,

0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:10.600
<v Speaker 2>never trust family.

0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.280
<v Speaker 1>Never trust family. Man. He's been saying that for years.

0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:15.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Well, Julius Rosenberg would agree with me, so would Ethel.

0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.360
<v Speaker 2>But so David started to become resentful, and there was

0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:24.880
<v Speaker 2>animosity throughout this period, and some people point to that

0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.320
<v Speaker 2>as the basis of what came later.

0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, David had borrowed a lot of money

0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.559
<v Speaker 1>from Julius without returning it. So the animosity is building.

0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.720
<v Speaker 1>His wife, David's wife, Ruth, so their sister in law,

0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:41.440
<v Speaker 1>the Rosenberg sister in law. She in February of nineteen

0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:45.600
<v Speaker 1>fifty was a lit a fire when her nightgown brushed

0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:47.960
<v Speaker 1>up against the heater of her apartment. She had a

0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.720
<v Speaker 1>lot of hospitalization and severe burns and high medical bills

0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.160
<v Speaker 1>and gave birth to a daughter while she was recovering

0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.440
<v Speaker 1>from this. So all this is just to basically set up,

0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:03.160
<v Speaker 1>like you said that David is he's in a pretty

0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.079
<v Speaker 1>bad place in his life at this time.

0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's going through a rough patch.

0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:07.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:11.840
<v Speaker 2>So we'll talk a little bit more about what happened,

0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.200
<v Speaker 2>because there's different accounts depending on who you talk to.

0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.480
<v Speaker 2>But what we do know that happened next was that

0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:22.600
<v Speaker 2>they started to get caught. So the whole thing kicked

0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:25.800
<v Speaker 2>off in February of nineteen fifty when a guy named

0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.840
<v Speaker 2>Klaus Fuchs, who was a physicist, he was British. He

0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.720
<v Speaker 2>was discovered by I six as being a Soviet spy,

0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.600
<v Speaker 2>and he was a big time Soviet spy. Apparently the

0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.800
<v Speaker 2>spying he did is estimated to have helped the Soviets

0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.680
<v Speaker 2>skip ahead an entire year in their development of the

0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:51.320
<v Speaker 2>atomic bomb. Huge, huge damaging spy. And when he was

0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.720
<v Speaker 2>caught he implicated others, but he didn't know others' names,

0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:58.760
<v Speaker 2>He only knew their code names, and he mentioned Raymond Well.

0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:03.120
<v Speaker 2>The FBI, the US government had what are now known

0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:08.560
<v Speaker 2>as the Venona Cables. The US had cracked secret cables

0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:12.400
<v Speaker 2>that were encrypted that the USSR had sent during World

0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.840
<v Speaker 2>War two, and in it it talked about a lot

0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.960
<v Speaker 2>of the spies working for them, and by having these

0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:23.200
<v Speaker 2>Venona cables and knowing people's different code names, they were

0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:25.760
<v Speaker 2>able to basically root out at least one hundred spies

0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.000
<v Speaker 2>using these cables. And Klaus Fuchs was first, and then

0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.320
<v Speaker 2>after Klaus Fuchs was Harry Gold, who was the rayman

0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:34.880
<v Speaker 2>that Klaus Fuchs mentioned in his confession.

0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:39.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right, so he was his US contact, Fuchs's

0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:43.080
<v Speaker 1>US contact. And then eventually that trickled down and Gold

0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:47.920
<v Speaker 1>led them to David green Glass, the Rosenberg's brother and

0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:48.600
<v Speaker 1>brother in law.

0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:49.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:53.680
<v Speaker 1>So on June fifteenth, nineteen fifty, the FEDS got David

0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.680
<v Speaker 1>green Glass and they rounded him up, brought him to

0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:01.160
<v Speaker 1>HQ to question him, and he was, I'm not into

0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.480
<v Speaker 1>espionage at all, like deny, deny, deny, which is I

0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.960
<v Speaker 1>guess the sensible thing to do. But then they said no,

0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:11.280
<v Speaker 1>this guy, Harry Gold, identified a photo of you, and

0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.880
<v Speaker 1>he went, okay, you got me. I am committing espionage.

0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:19.360
<v Speaker 1>He was arrested and he said, I passed on this

0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.440
<v Speaker 1>atomic information and we'll get to how he knew this stuff.

0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:24.640
<v Speaker 1>In a minute. I passed it on to Harry Gold

0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.760
<v Speaker 1>in June nineteen forty five. I was initially recruited to

0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.720
<v Speaker 1>do this by my wife, Ruth, and Ruth was recruited

0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:36.720
<v Speaker 1>by no good brother in law Julius. Key to all

0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.560
<v Speaker 1>this is that he never mentioned Ethel being involved at first.

0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:41.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. That's a big one right there. Just put that

0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.800
<v Speaker 2>in your pipe and stick it in your hat, right Yeah.

0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:47.600
<v Speaker 2>Should we take a break down and talk about what

0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:48.720
<v Speaker 2>came next?

0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:50.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a good cliffhanger.

0:16:50.640 --> 0:17:21.639
<v Speaker 2>Okay, we'll be right back. So the FEDS have David

0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:26.320
<v Speaker 2>Greenglass now, who was one degree removed from the Rosenbergs,

0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.000
<v Speaker 2>and he's already implicated Julius, but not Ethel. So the

0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:33.800
<v Speaker 2>FBI goes to start talking to Julius. They questioned him

0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:38.240
<v Speaker 2>in June of nineteen fifty and I guess basically the

0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.720
<v Speaker 2>day after they started talking to David Greenglass's brother in law,

0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.560
<v Speaker 2>pretty quick. Yeah, and they didn't have enough on Julius

0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.240
<v Speaker 2>to bust him yet. They knew enough because again, remember

0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.640
<v Speaker 2>they had the Venona cables and all of these people

0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.359
<v Speaker 2>are mentioned in the Venona Cables. They had basically figured

0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:57.960
<v Speaker 2>out who was who, but the Venona cables were so

0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:02.560
<v Speaker 2>sensitive and so highly cied the FBI, the Department of

0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:06.240
<v Speaker 2>Justice could not use them in court. Oh yeah, so

0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:09.199
<v Speaker 2>they could only use them as a background information. And

0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:11.879
<v Speaker 2>then they had to extract these confessions and piece together

0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.400
<v Speaker 2>like as if those things didn't exist. So they knew everything,

0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.520
<v Speaker 2>but they had to basically get David Greenglass and then

0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:20.600
<v Speaker 2>later his wife Ruth to talk.

0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:22.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which they did over the course of a month

0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.080
<v Speaker 1>or so. They started talking to Ruth, kept talking to

0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.200
<v Speaker 1>David and about Yeah, like one month later, July seventeenth,

0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:31.399
<v Speaker 1>they said, all right, we got enough, We're going to

0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.600
<v Speaker 1>arrest Julius. And then a little less than a month later,

0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:39.320
<v Speaker 1>on August eleventh, after Ethel participated in the grand jury

0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:42.520
<v Speaker 1>hearing for her husband, she was also arrested and they

0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:47.199
<v Speaker 1>were both charged with conspiracy to commit espionage. And that

0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:49.280
<v Speaker 1>was under the Espionage Act of nineteen seventeen.

0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:54.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, for some reason, going and being just a

0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:57.240
<v Speaker 2>part of a grand jury trial and then getting arrested

0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.600
<v Speaker 2>right after, I can't compare it to anything, but it

0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.639
<v Speaker 2>just seems almost mean, like there should be a break

0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:05.640
<v Speaker 2>in between, like you think you're going in and you're

0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:07.800
<v Speaker 2>gonna be fine and then bam, you get arrested on

0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:09.600
<v Speaker 2>the like as you're walking out.

0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.879
<v Speaker 1>It just just mean, It's like the when they invited

0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:14.680
<v Speaker 1>everyone of the football game the criminals.

0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:16.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was a good one.

0:19:16.760 --> 0:19:17.760
<v Speaker 1>Operation What was that?

0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Uh? No, that was maybe that was the one where

0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:26.720
<v Speaker 2>they created the corpse that they threw overboard World War

0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:27.960
<v Speaker 2>two to fool the Nazis.

0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:31.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that inspired a Broadway show. But I think maybe

0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.840
<v Speaker 1>a Broadway show should be inspired by the Redskins football game.

0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.280
<v Speaker 2>I agree, And I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.

0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:38.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, or at least a Simpsons episode.

0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm surprised that hasn't happened yet. No, it did. Remember

0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.240
<v Speaker 2>we talked about it where they had the free boat giveaway.

0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:45.600
<v Speaker 1>That's why I said, wink wink.

0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:49.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh god, I didn't know you were winking at me.

0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.640
<v Speaker 1>You're like, I thought you were just alurting, right, all right,

0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:54.840
<v Speaker 1>So we should tell the story, and this is the

0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.920
<v Speaker 1>official story according to the Department of Justice, on how

0:19:58.000 --> 0:19:59.600
<v Speaker 1>this all went down. So we're just gonna kind of

0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:02.600
<v Speaker 1>tell it that way to begin with. Yeah, I mentioned

0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:05.680
<v Speaker 1>David Grenglass had atomic secrets and how he got those?

0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.520
<v Speaker 1>Was he was in the army in nineteen forty three,

0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.879
<v Speaker 1>and he was transferred to Los Alamos in August of

0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:16.000
<v Speaker 1>nineteen forty four and was around the work of the

0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:16.800
<v Speaker 1>Manhattan Project.

0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:21.320
<v Speaker 2>All of a sudden, Yeah, he was rubbing elbows with Oppenheimer. Yeah,

0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:23.399
<v Speaker 2>so that was August of nineteen forty four when you

0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.840
<v Speaker 2>started working on the atomic bomb project. A few months later,

0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:30.959
<v Speaker 2>Ruth came to visit David and his wife. Yes, his

0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.159
<v Speaker 2>wife Ruth. So by this time when she came to

0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:39.639
<v Speaker 2>visit her husband in Albuquerque, she had actually been recruited

0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:44.199
<v Speaker 2>as a spy by at least Julius Rosenberg, and she

0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:47.760
<v Speaker 2>essentially went to Albuquerque to convince her husband to become

0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:52.080
<v Speaker 2>a spy. All these like, both couples were very much

0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:56.000
<v Speaker 2>into the Soviet Union, very much into Communism, so they

0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.480
<v Speaker 2>have very similar views. This wasn't like, didn't take a

0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:02.320
<v Speaker 2>lot of persuading from what I understand, And she basically said, hey,

0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:06.680
<v Speaker 2>Julius figured out, probably as Soviet handlers told him that

0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:10.439
<v Speaker 2>you're working on as the atomic bomb project. So he

0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:12.359
<v Speaker 2>wants you to tell me everything you know about it,

0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:13.720
<v Speaker 2>and then I'm going to take it back to him.

0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:16.520
<v Speaker 2>Then he's going to pass it on to the USSR

0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:19.400
<v Speaker 2>and our glorious leader Joseph Stalin.

0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:23.880
<v Speaker 1>That's right. January of nineteen forty five, David went back

0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:26.520
<v Speaker 1>to New York on furlough, and just a couple of

0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:30.080
<v Speaker 1>days after he got back, Julius came around, knocked on

0:21:30.119 --> 0:21:31.760
<v Speaker 1>the door of his apartment and he said, Hey, what

0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.120
<v Speaker 1>else you got for me on this atomic bomb? He said,

0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:38.560
<v Speaker 1>write it all down, anything you can think of that's useful.

0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.880
<v Speaker 1>I'll pick it up tomorrow. His wife, David's wife, Ruth,

0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.200
<v Speaker 1>was like, his handwriting is terrible. You're not gonna be

0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:46.720
<v Speaker 1>able to read this, and Julius said, according to the

0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:50.240
<v Speaker 1>DOJ said, not a problem. Ethel did I mention to

0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:52.439
<v Speaker 1>he as a secretary, she can type like the wind.

0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:55.040
<v Speaker 1>She'll type everything up so it's nice and neat and orderly,

0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:58.639
<v Speaker 1>and we'll all be a working family together in this

0:21:58.760 --> 0:21:59.639
<v Speaker 1>espionage project.

0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:04.879
<v Speaker 2>All attention will dissolve after we start spying together. And

0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:09.840
<v Speaker 2>that same furlough visit in January nineteen forty five, David

0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:12.199
<v Speaker 2>and Ruth have dinner with the Rosenbergs and they're actually

0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:17.840
<v Speaker 2>introduced to a Soviet operative named Ann Sidorovich and a

0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:21.159
<v Speaker 2>really interesting plan is hatched here that ultimately leads to

0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:25.840
<v Speaker 2>the downfall of David green Glass. Julia says, hey, Anne

0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:28.000
<v Speaker 2>is going to be your contact. Now, she's going to

0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:31.320
<v Speaker 2>come visit you in Albuquerque. By the way, Ruth, why

0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:33.879
<v Speaker 2>don't you move to Albuquerque to be with your husband

0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:37.720
<v Speaker 2>and you guys can spy more effectively together. But when

0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:40.280
<v Speaker 2>Anne comes to visit you, just give her all the

0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:44.160
<v Speaker 2>information and she will give it to me. We should

0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:47.440
<v Speaker 2>say there were people like Anne, like Harry Gold. Their

0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:50.359
<v Speaker 2>entire job was to act as couriers. And the reason

0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:54.560
<v Speaker 2>why is because the Soviets rightly assumed that the Feds

0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:58.600
<v Speaker 2>were following all of their operatives in the United States,

0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:02.320
<v Speaker 2>so they couldn't possibly use an operative to connect two spies.

0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:04.800
<v Speaker 2>They had to use a third spy to work as

0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:08.160
<v Speaker 2>a courier. That's what Anne was doing. But somebody said,

0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:12.639
<v Speaker 2>what if Anne, like is indisposed, what if she, you know,

0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:16.240
<v Speaker 2>gets a stomach bug and it's just pooping everywhere, or

0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.000
<v Speaker 2>what if what if she falls in love and runs

0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:21.440
<v Speaker 2>off and gets married and frig it's all about the USSR.

0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:24.680
<v Speaker 2>And Julius said, I've got a great idea, a plan

0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:28.160
<v Speaker 2>B if you will, and That is where the phrase

0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:29.320
<v Speaker 2>plan B was coined.

0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Are you messing with me? Okay? Yeah, So one small

0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:37.120
<v Speaker 1>detail here is that Anne was in Denver, so Ruth

0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:39.680
<v Speaker 1>would get the information from David and Alberquerque, then visit

0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:42.640
<v Speaker 1>Anne in Denver to pass this along and if Anne

0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:45.359
<v Speaker 1>had that stomach bug. This was the brilliant plan that

0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:47.960
<v Speaker 1>Julius came up with. He said, hey me that jello

0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:51.879
<v Speaker 1>box over there, Raspberry, and they were like, we've already uh,

0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:54.560
<v Speaker 1>we've already had dessert. Why do you want this jello box?

0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:58.600
<v Speaker 1>He ripped the jello box open and took one of

0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:02.240
<v Speaker 1>the cardboard pieces and he ripped that in half, handed

0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:05.760
<v Speaker 1>Ruth one and said, I'm going to give this other

0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:09.320
<v Speaker 1>half to someone with a secret identity that you don't

0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:12.119
<v Speaker 1>know yet. That's our Plan B person. So if you

0:24:12.119 --> 0:24:14.680
<v Speaker 1>show up to Denver, Ann is not there and somebody

0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:17.719
<v Speaker 1>shows up with this jello box half that I'm holding

0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:21.600
<v Speaker 1>and showing you, remember it's going to match. You can

0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:24.760
<v Speaker 1>put it together like a locket. Yeah, that will be

0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:27.960
<v Speaker 1>the confirmation of their identity, which is so low fi

0:24:28.119 --> 0:24:29.280
<v Speaker 1>it's actually kind of brilliant.

0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:32.040
<v Speaker 2>It is brilliant, And I think that jello box those

0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:35.240
<v Speaker 2>two pieces are in a spy museum somewhere. They got it,

0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:40.840
<v Speaker 2>and rightfully so, but it actually came into play because

0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:43.280
<v Speaker 2>and did get intosposed in some way that I hadn't

0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:47.920
<v Speaker 2>figured out. And Harry Gold, who again one of his

0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:51.560
<v Speaker 2>only job was as serving as a courier, he showed

0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:55.440
<v Speaker 2>up in New Mexico on David and Ruth's doorstep and said, hey,

0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:59.840
<v Speaker 2>Julius sent me I spy. And they said, you got

0:24:59.880 --> 0:25:03.440
<v Speaker 2>the the password, you got the code, you got the

0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:05.439
<v Speaker 2>I don't know what would you call an object that

0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:07.879
<v Speaker 2>serves as a password past key.

0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:09.639
<v Speaker 1>They probably said, do you have the rip piece of

0:25:09.680 --> 0:25:10.240
<v Speaker 1>jello box?

0:25:11.160 --> 0:25:14.720
<v Speaker 2>Right? Or or they said I am the key master?

0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:16.040
<v Speaker 2>Are you the gate keeper?

0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Goeser?

0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:20.920
<v Speaker 2>Sure, So he said, yes, I am the key master.

0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:22.760
<v Speaker 2>Check this out. And he produced the half of the

0:25:22.840 --> 0:25:23.560
<v Speaker 2>jello box.

0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:24.280
<v Speaker 1>And what a moment.

0:25:24.440 --> 0:25:27.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Ruth, I think it was one of the other ruthor.

0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:29.959
<v Speaker 2>David produced the other half and they put it together

0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:33.200
<v Speaker 2>and they said, let's let's wrap brother.

0:25:34.760 --> 0:25:39.000
<v Speaker 1>So, uh, he's now the guy David writes up as

0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:41.119
<v Speaker 1>much as he knows at that point, you know, the

0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:43.240
<v Speaker 1>extra stuff about the bomb that he you know, since

0:25:43.280 --> 0:25:45.960
<v Speaker 1>the last meeting, and also like, here's some other people

0:25:46.000 --> 0:25:48.960
<v Speaker 1>that you know, they're always trying to recruit people within

0:25:49.080 --> 0:25:53.600
<v Speaker 1>Los Alamos and elsewhere, and Gold said, great, thanks a lot.

0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:57.359
<v Speaker 1>Here's five hundred bucks. Which is interesting because they, I mean,

0:25:57.359 --> 0:25:59.359
<v Speaker 1>these thing weren't doing it for money, right, Was this

0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:01.560
<v Speaker 1>just a bit of a bonus for being a good soldier?

0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:03.199
<v Speaker 2>I think so?

0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:07.320
<v Speaker 1>I don't jump change back then nor now.

0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:10.159
<v Speaker 2>No, I mean they were definitely true, true believers in

0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:13.439
<v Speaker 2>communism and fighting fascism, so maybe it was just a

0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:15.080
<v Speaker 2>little a lene yap.

0:26:15.680 --> 0:26:19.119
<v Speaker 1>All right, So they gave him five hundred bucks. September

0:26:19.119 --> 0:26:21.240
<v Speaker 1>of nineteen forty five, he went back to New York.

0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:25.400
<v Speaker 1>David did on another furlough, and here he provided information

0:26:25.600 --> 0:26:29.399
<v Speaker 1>right to Julius's face, said, here's some more notes. I

0:26:29.440 --> 0:26:32.119
<v Speaker 1>even drew a sketch of the atomic bomb. Julius is like,

0:26:32.160 --> 0:26:33.960
<v Speaker 1>this isn't very good, and he said, no, trust me,

0:26:34.160 --> 0:26:38.960
<v Speaker 1>it looks basically like that. And he claims that ethel

0:26:39.040 --> 0:26:41.800
<v Speaker 1>typed up the notes, and then Julius burned those notes

0:26:41.800 --> 0:26:44.119
<v Speaker 1>in a frying pan, gave David two hundred bucks for

0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:48.360
<v Speaker 1>his troubles. And that's where we find ourselves.

0:26:48.560 --> 0:26:51.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, when I saw that frying pan detail. I was like, God,

0:26:51.800 --> 0:26:53.679
<v Speaker 2>how long did they have to heat those up to

0:26:53.680 --> 0:26:56.359
<v Speaker 2>get them to catch fire? And then I realized that

0:26:56.640 --> 0:27:00.680
<v Speaker 2>they were using the frying pan as like basically a fire. Yeah.

0:27:00.720 --> 0:27:02.400
<v Speaker 2>I got it now, but it took me a couple

0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:02.800
<v Speaker 2>of days.

0:27:03.080 --> 0:27:05.560
<v Speaker 1>That'd be very funny in the movie though. It's just

0:27:05.600 --> 0:27:08.399
<v Speaker 1>like just another forty five minutes? What's the flashpoint for

0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:09.520
<v Speaker 1>jello boxes?

0:27:10.200 --> 0:27:14.520
<v Speaker 2>Right? So are we at another stopping point?

0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:16.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, let's do it.

0:27:16.760 --> 0:27:19.560
<v Speaker 2>Okay, we're gonna stop everybody if we just hanched down.

0:27:43.760 --> 0:27:48.240
<v Speaker 1>All right, we're back to the contemporaneous present when everyone

0:27:48.280 --> 0:27:51.480
<v Speaker 1>had been arrested, basically right out of the gate. David

0:27:51.520 --> 0:27:53.879
<v Speaker 1>and Ruth, the husband and wife team the Green Glasses,

0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:59.439
<v Speaker 1>hired an attorney named O John Rogue or rog or Rogie,

0:27:59.560 --> 0:28:02.560
<v Speaker 1>I don't know you pronounce that r O gge. And

0:28:03.760 --> 0:28:06.800
<v Speaker 1>so they had a pretty good attorney, and he said, Hey,

0:28:07.040 --> 0:28:10.359
<v Speaker 1>here's what you gotta do. Let me ask you this question. First,

0:28:10.520 --> 0:28:12.760
<v Speaker 1>how much do you like your sister and her husband?

0:28:13.520 --> 0:28:15.119
<v Speaker 1>He said, because what we should really do if you

0:28:15.119 --> 0:28:16.520
<v Speaker 1>want to get out of this is we should blame

0:28:16.520 --> 0:28:19.640
<v Speaker 1>the Rosenbergs. And if you can make a case against them,

0:28:19.800 --> 0:28:21.480
<v Speaker 1>then they're probably going to let you off pretty light.

0:28:21.800 --> 0:28:23.840
<v Speaker 1>And he was right on the money with that line

0:28:23.840 --> 0:28:24.240
<v Speaker 1>of thinking.

0:28:24.480 --> 0:28:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and the Green glasses said, sure, why not. I

0:28:28.880 --> 0:28:34.080
<v Speaker 2>have a pet theory that if David and Ethel had

0:28:34.080 --> 0:28:36.800
<v Speaker 2>been closer in age, she was seven years older than him,

0:28:37.280 --> 0:28:39.280
<v Speaker 2>you may not have betrayed her quite as easily. But

0:28:39.440 --> 0:28:42.160
<v Speaker 2>seven years is a pretty decent amount of distance between

0:28:42.200 --> 0:28:44.560
<v Speaker 2>you and an older sister, and I think that makes

0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:46.440
<v Speaker 2>the betrayal all the all the easier.

0:28:46.920 --> 0:28:49.600
<v Speaker 1>My sister's six years older, and I would totally sell

0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:49.960
<v Speaker 1>her out.

0:28:50.040 --> 0:28:53.320
<v Speaker 2>There you go, So my pet, my pet theory is correct.

0:28:53.880 --> 0:28:59.959
<v Speaker 1>That's right. So they this led to basically a different account.

0:29:00.360 --> 0:29:02.400
<v Speaker 1>Some people may say it was an account that shifted.

0:29:02.760 --> 0:29:05.800
<v Speaker 1>Other people might say, no, David just basically lied about

0:29:05.800 --> 0:29:08.720
<v Speaker 1>Ethel's involvement. Yeah, and you might be wondering, like, well,

0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:12.320
<v Speaker 1>what's the rumpus here? Like they had Julius dead to rights,

0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:15.080
<v Speaker 1>Like why did they need to get Ethel involved? This

0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:16.920
<v Speaker 1>is because they were living in a time of the

0:29:17.000 --> 0:29:21.920
<v Speaker 1>j Edgar Hoover FBI and prosecutors like Roy Kohane who

0:29:21.960 --> 0:29:25.400
<v Speaker 1>basically were like, hey, if you want to get Julius.

0:29:25.760 --> 0:29:28.440
<v Speaker 1>You got to get his wife involved and use her

0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:31.160
<v Speaker 1>as leverage, basically.

0:29:31.520 --> 0:29:34.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And the other thing too, is even though they

0:29:34.240 --> 0:29:36.880
<v Speaker 2>had Julius dead to rights, he was not cooperating in

0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:40.120
<v Speaker 2>any way, shape or form. He maintained his innocence until

0:29:40.120 --> 0:29:43.840
<v Speaker 2>the very end. And they wanted more spots. They wanted

0:29:43.840 --> 0:29:46.640
<v Speaker 2>to flip him and get more and more and more people. Yeah,

0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:49.960
<v Speaker 2>so they used Ethel, like you said, as leverage and

0:29:50.040 --> 0:29:53.200
<v Speaker 2>they ended up picking her up. Based on the green

0:29:53.280 --> 0:29:59.800
<v Speaker 2>Glasses testimony. Remember when David green Glass's first first question,

0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:03.400
<v Speaker 2>he does not mention Ethyl. He mentions Ruth, his own wife,

0:30:03.680 --> 0:30:05.680
<v Speaker 2>He mentions his brother in law, Julius. He does not

0:30:05.760 --> 0:30:08.720
<v Speaker 2>say Ethel was part of the spy ring. Now, all

0:30:08.760 --> 0:30:12.800
<v Speaker 2>of a sudden he is saying she definitely was. And

0:30:12.800 --> 0:30:17.840
<v Speaker 2>then even more damning before the Department of Justice came

0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:20.080
<v Speaker 2>and said like, hey, why did you just touch a

0:30:20.120 --> 0:30:24.280
<v Speaker 2>perjury to help our case out. He gave that grand

0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:27.560
<v Speaker 2>jury testament, the same grand jury that Ethel was arrested

0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:32.600
<v Speaker 2>right after, rather unfairly, and he said, point blank, Ethel

0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:33.880
<v Speaker 2>was not involved in this.

0:30:34.080 --> 0:30:36.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and we know all this is true because in

0:30:36.480 --> 0:30:39.000
<v Speaker 1>two thousand and one, David Grenglass said, Yeah, I lied

0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:41.040
<v Speaker 1>about my sister because I wanted to save my own wife.

0:30:41.160 --> 0:30:44.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he lied. During the trial, he perjured himself. He

0:30:44.200 --> 0:30:47.840
<v Speaker 2>admitted it. So not only did he perjure himself, he

0:30:47.880 --> 0:30:51.000
<v Speaker 2>perjured himself to implicate his sister, which a lot of

0:30:51.000 --> 0:30:55.560
<v Speaker 2>people think she was basically innocent, if not fully innocent.

0:30:56.520 --> 0:30:59.240
<v Speaker 2>So that's a really hard thing to swallow. But we're

0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:01.600
<v Speaker 2>still not done with the d Jane and what they

0:31:01.640 --> 0:31:02.120
<v Speaker 2>did here.

0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:05.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure, Julius and Ethel were tried together, along

0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:09.360
<v Speaker 1>with Julius's college classmate that I mentioned at the beginning

0:31:09.360 --> 0:31:11.320
<v Speaker 1>that I just had to put a pin in Morton, Sobell,

0:31:11.400 --> 0:31:13.640
<v Speaker 1>you can take that pen out now. So the three

0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:15.920
<v Speaker 1>of them are being tried. And if David and Ruth

0:31:16.040 --> 0:31:20.160
<v Speaker 1>hired an attorney that had a pretty great idea to

0:31:20.160 --> 0:31:22.760
<v Speaker 1>blame it on the Rosenbergs, they did not hire well

0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:27.680
<v Speaker 1>because they hired Emmanuel manny Block, and I think that

0:31:27.720 --> 0:31:30.320
<v Speaker 1>was Julius's attorney. They had separate attorneys, and Ethel's was

0:31:30.320 --> 0:31:33.440
<v Speaker 1>his father, Alexander, and neither one of these people were

0:31:33.520 --> 0:31:34.920
<v Speaker 1>criminal attorneys at all.

0:31:35.120 --> 0:31:41.560
<v Speaker 2>Now, Alexander specialized in facilitating the sale of bakeries I

0:31:41.680 --> 0:31:44.120
<v Speaker 2>don't get it. I don't understand why they hired them.

0:31:44.160 --> 0:31:45.880
<v Speaker 2>I didn't see I don't know.

0:31:45.920 --> 0:31:48.680
<v Speaker 1>There had to be some connection. I doubt if they

0:31:48.720 --> 0:31:50.239
<v Speaker 1>just yellow page that, you know.

0:31:50.400 --> 0:31:52.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, maybe they were trying to help their careers. I

0:31:52.640 --> 0:31:53.479
<v Speaker 2>don't know, but it was.

0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:55.400
<v Speaker 1>Somebody probably knows. I bet someone will let us know.

0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:59.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So the prosecution had a bunch of federal prosecutors

0:31:59.560 --> 0:32:03.440
<v Speaker 2>led by Irving Sapaul, who time called the nation's number

0:32:03.520 --> 0:32:07.120
<v Speaker 2>one legal hunter of top communists. Not who you want

0:32:07.400 --> 0:32:11.080
<v Speaker 2>prosecuting you if you are a spy for the Soviets.

0:32:11.960 --> 0:32:15.560
<v Speaker 2>And then the judge was also not the judge you

0:32:15.600 --> 0:32:18.200
<v Speaker 2>wanted to draw. His name was Irvin Kaufman, and he

0:32:18.360 --> 0:32:22.880
<v Speaker 2>was known for hating communists and he used his bench

0:32:23.320 --> 0:32:26.560
<v Speaker 2>to essentially punish them as harshly as he possibly could.

0:32:26.800 --> 0:32:29.400
<v Speaker 2>He was the kind of judge who would actually add

0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:33.280
<v Speaker 2>ten years onto whatever sentence the DOJ was asking for

0:32:33.440 --> 0:32:36.760
<v Speaker 2>in trials of communist spies. He was that kind of judge,

0:32:36.760 --> 0:32:38.440
<v Speaker 2>and that's who they drew, you know.

0:32:38.520 --> 0:32:40.480
<v Speaker 1>To be funny, as if who let us know about

0:32:40.520 --> 0:32:46.280
<v Speaker 1>the connection to those attorneys was Billy Joel. What if

0:32:46.280 --> 0:32:48.160
<v Speaker 1>he sent us an email said I know this guy's

0:32:48.360 --> 0:32:52.240
<v Speaker 1>then attached you'll find an additional verse that I cooked

0:32:52.320 --> 0:32:52.680
<v Speaker 1>up for you.

0:32:52.920 --> 0:32:54.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, to we didn't.

0:32:54.520 --> 0:32:56.880
<v Speaker 1>Start the fire where I explain about the bakery guy.

0:32:57.040 --> 0:32:59.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and he'd be like, ps, what's this with my

0:32:59.160 --> 0:33:00.800
<v Speaker 2>worst song craft? Right?

0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:04.760
<v Speaker 1>Oh man, I can't believe I said that out loud. Yeah,

0:33:04.800 --> 0:33:06.440
<v Speaker 1>I have to edit that out, which is just what

0:33:06.480 --> 0:33:07.960
<v Speaker 1>I meant to say was there is no bad Billy

0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:08.440
<v Speaker 1>Joel song.

0:33:08.680 --> 0:33:10.640
<v Speaker 2>That was perfect. There you go. We'll just clip that

0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:13.440
<v Speaker 2>out and put it over what you said originally.

0:33:13.640 --> 0:33:15.040
<v Speaker 1>No, I'm going to leave it in. I'm gonna stand

0:33:15.040 --> 0:33:17.920
<v Speaker 1>by it. Hey, listen, there's a big hit Billy. If

0:33:17.920 --> 0:33:20.680
<v Speaker 1>you're listening. I love almost everything you ever did, but

0:33:20.760 --> 0:33:21.560
<v Speaker 1>you can't win them all.

0:33:22.280 --> 0:33:25.920
<v Speaker 2>That's a great lesson to learn. Billy Joel really is.

0:33:28.200 --> 0:33:31.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So one thing we should point out, getting back

0:33:31.920 --> 0:33:35.360
<v Speaker 1>on track here, about this trial and the prosecution, which

0:33:35.360 --> 0:33:39.880
<v Speaker 1>hated communist. The jury of twelve had one black man,

0:33:40.160 --> 0:33:45.640
<v Speaker 1>one white woman, and no Jewish members on the jury.

0:33:46.080 --> 0:33:50.320
<v Speaker 1>The other were ten white Christian men who all were

0:33:50.320 --> 0:33:51.560
<v Speaker 1>in favor of the death penalty.

0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:54.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which you know in their defense, like you can't

0:33:54.800 --> 0:33:57.760
<v Speaker 2>be on a capital jury if you are in favor

0:33:57.760 --> 0:33:59.920
<v Speaker 2>of the death penalty, but still it was not the

0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:02.200
<v Speaker 2>kind of position that you would want to find yourself in,

0:34:02.400 --> 0:34:02.880
<v Speaker 2>like this is.

0:34:02.960 --> 0:34:04.360
<v Speaker 1>I never thought about that. I guess that's true.

0:34:04.440 --> 0:34:06.320
<v Speaker 2>Huh, yeah, I think we talked about it in the

0:34:06.400 --> 0:34:09.160
<v Speaker 2>jury episode. I'm pretty sure that's that's where I got

0:34:09.160 --> 0:34:11.240
<v Speaker 2>it from, which means it could be wrong.

0:34:11.719 --> 0:34:14.359
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, well, if you were against a death built,

0:34:14.440 --> 0:34:15.640
<v Speaker 1>you just come up the works. They don't want you

0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:16.360
<v Speaker 1>in there.

0:34:16.640 --> 0:34:22.040
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so they're in a pickle, I guess

0:34:22.160 --> 0:34:23.799
<v Speaker 2>is what you want to call it. And they're still like,

0:34:23.960 --> 0:34:26.719
<v Speaker 2>this is all wrong. We're just we're maintaining our innocence.

0:34:27.320 --> 0:34:30.040
<v Speaker 2>And the prosecution said, oh yeah, we'll sit there while

0:34:30.080 --> 0:34:32.480
<v Speaker 2>we trot out a bunch of witnesses against you. Guys.

0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:37.240
<v Speaker 2>They brought Max Elector, who was a classmate with Morton,

0:34:37.320 --> 0:34:43.600
<v Speaker 2>Sobel and Julius. Remember Ruth's brother in law, lewis Abel

0:34:44.440 --> 0:34:47.160
<v Speaker 2>and I guess that was from I guess she had

0:34:47.160 --> 0:34:50.600
<v Speaker 2>a sister. I didn't see that anywhere. George Bernhardt, who

0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:56.080
<v Speaker 2>was Julius's doctor, Harry Gold, the courier for the Soviets,

0:34:56.360 --> 0:34:59.080
<v Speaker 2>and Elizabeth Bentley, who was also a former spy, and

0:34:59.120 --> 0:35:00.759
<v Speaker 2>each one had quite a story to tell.

0:35:01.320 --> 0:35:03.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And if you're wondering, like why did they get

0:35:03.160 --> 0:35:07.760
<v Speaker 1>Julius's doctor in there, it's because he testified that Julius

0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:11.360
<v Speaker 1>had inquired about going to Mexico and like, what inoculations

0:35:11.360 --> 0:35:12.800
<v Speaker 1>do I need to get if I go to Mexico,

0:35:13.480 --> 0:35:17.160
<v Speaker 1>like very suddenly? And the prosecution was like, hey, and

0:35:17.200 --> 0:35:18.680
<v Speaker 1>I just made up for the very suddenly part, But

0:35:18.719 --> 0:35:20.839
<v Speaker 1>the prosecution basically took it that way and was like, hey,

0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:22.600
<v Speaker 1>this is evidence he was gonna flee, he was going

0:35:22.640 --> 0:35:24.400
<v Speaker 1>to go to Mexico. Get that doctor in here.

0:35:24.320 --> 0:35:28.440
<v Speaker 2>Right, So let's see Elizabeth Bentley, the former spy. She

0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:31.640
<v Speaker 2>said I saw him or somebody who looked like him

0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:34.880
<v Speaker 2>once talking to Jacob Golos, who was a known Soviet

0:35:35.000 --> 0:35:37.160
<v Speaker 2>operative and the head of the Communist Party of the

0:35:37.280 --> 0:35:43.160
<v Speaker 2>USA in Knickerbocker Village. The KBV no less in nineteen

0:35:43.200 --> 0:35:45.759
<v Speaker 2>forty two. It's a little thin. Some of the other

0:35:45.800 --> 0:35:48.480
<v Speaker 2>ones were a little more damning too. Yeah.

0:35:48.520 --> 0:35:51.400
<v Speaker 1>By the way, I know, I sounded very dumb earlier

0:35:51.440 --> 0:35:54.200
<v Speaker 1>when you said KBV right after Knickerbocker Village, and I

0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:57.520
<v Speaker 1>didn't pick up on that. In my defense. I thought

0:35:57.520 --> 0:35:59.480
<v Speaker 1>it would have been kV because knickerbucker is one word.

0:35:59.480 --> 0:36:00.000
<v Speaker 1>That's what can be.

0:36:00.360 --> 0:36:03.239
<v Speaker 2>Yes, but people like to like.

0:36:03.400 --> 0:36:06.000
<v Speaker 1>No, I agree, I'd like three eating everyone. No, I'm

0:36:06.000 --> 0:36:08.520
<v Speaker 1>not a not a one hundred percent more on. I'm

0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:09.359
<v Speaker 1>just fifty percent more.

0:36:09.480 --> 0:36:12.799
<v Speaker 2>No one thinks you're a moro on or even a

0:36:12.880 --> 0:36:13.160
<v Speaker 2>more on.

0:36:13.640 --> 0:36:14.640
<v Speaker 1>You should read the internet.

0:36:16.840 --> 0:36:19.240
<v Speaker 2>Uh, people, there's plenty of people who don't like me either.

0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, people take it personally. They're people that hate us.

0:36:22.680 --> 0:36:23.960
<v Speaker 1>No, I don't. I don't read that stuff.

0:36:24.120 --> 0:36:27.040
<v Speaker 2>Good Again, they can soak their heads.

0:36:27.400 --> 0:36:31.200
<v Speaker 1>That's just that's right, kick sand, touch grass, all those things.

0:36:31.320 --> 0:36:34.879
<v Speaker 2>So like so, like I said, touch grass, you haven't

0:36:34.880 --> 0:36:37.799
<v Speaker 2>heard that. No? Is that like you they've been knocked down?

0:36:38.360 --> 0:36:40.440
<v Speaker 1>No, I think touch grass is a more modern thing.

0:36:40.520 --> 0:36:43.480
<v Speaker 1>Like when people are just social media fighting, someone will

0:36:43.520 --> 0:36:45.680
<v Speaker 1>say touch grass, like, you know, get off the computer.

0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:48.560
<v Speaker 2>Go outside. Yes, yes, yeah, okay, I think that's what Weirdly,

0:36:48.719 --> 0:36:50.920
<v Speaker 2>I came across that for the first time within the

0:36:50.960 --> 0:36:53.239
<v Speaker 2>last couple of weeks, and I promptly forgot it.

0:36:53.719 --> 0:36:55.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well you know what they should say, smoke grass,

0:36:57.080 --> 0:36:58.759
<v Speaker 1>Quit internet fighting, go smoke some weed.

0:37:00.280 --> 0:37:01.719
<v Speaker 2>So what about Max Elektor.

0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:06.320
<v Speaker 1>Uh who was that? Oh he was the former roommate

0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:09.799
<v Speaker 1>I think. And he came out in testimony against him too.

0:37:09.760 --> 0:37:12.680
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, he said Julius tried to recruit me as

0:37:12.719 --> 0:37:13.080
<v Speaker 2>a spy.

0:37:13.520 --> 0:37:14.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's right, not good.

0:37:15.600 --> 0:37:18.279
<v Speaker 2>Lewis Abel, Ruth's brother in law, said, hey, I got

0:37:18.280 --> 0:37:20.760
<v Speaker 2>some money from Ruth and David, And if you know David,

0:37:21.560 --> 0:37:24.200
<v Speaker 2>that is weird. So I asked him where they got it,

0:37:24.520 --> 0:37:27.759
<v Speaker 2>and he said Julius gave it to them, and I

0:37:27.800 --> 0:37:31.400
<v Speaker 2>suspect for spying, and and Manny Block stood up as

0:37:31.400 --> 0:37:34.480
<v Speaker 2>aid objection, and the judge said, overruled. You call me,

0:37:35.719 --> 0:37:36.439
<v Speaker 2>you call me lover.

0:37:36.960 --> 0:37:39.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, his dad's over there rolling some biscuits out.

0:37:40.239 --> 0:37:42.200
<v Speaker 2>Oh. I'm glad you said that, because I have to

0:37:42.200 --> 0:37:45.000
<v Speaker 2>get this out there. I don't know where it came from,

0:37:45.760 --> 0:37:49.080
<v Speaker 2>but it will not leave my head. Sir, mix a

0:37:49.120 --> 0:37:52.480
<v Speaker 2>lot buttermilk biscuits song. It's just I don't know that song.

0:37:52.520 --> 0:37:55.040
<v Speaker 2>Parts of it are you don't.

0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:56.839
<v Speaker 1>No and I love Sir mexical, I just don't know.

0:37:56.920 --> 0:37:59.799
<v Speaker 2>It's a weird like novelty song that he had like

0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:02.000
<v Speaker 2>very early on surely like.

0:38:01.960 --> 0:38:04.759
<v Speaker 1>The rest of his serious work exactly.

0:38:05.360 --> 0:38:08.040
<v Speaker 2>It's even more novel than his later stuff.

0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:11.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, oh man Seattle's own what a legend.

0:38:11.320 --> 0:38:13.120
<v Speaker 2>I didn't know he's from Seattle. Yeah.

0:38:13.200 --> 0:38:16.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because when they did the do you remember the

0:38:16.200 --> 0:38:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Judgment Night movie and that amazing soundtrack.

0:38:18.960 --> 0:38:20.120
<v Speaker 2>I remember the movie.

0:38:20.640 --> 0:38:22.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, the movie wasn't great, but the soundtrack was great

0:38:22.480 --> 0:38:24.800
<v Speaker 1>because they paired rock bands with the hip hop artists

0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:27.480
<v Speaker 1>because that was a big thing. Oh yeah, and Sir

0:38:27.560 --> 0:38:30.200
<v Speaker 1>Mix a Lot and mud Honey repaired because they were

0:38:30.239 --> 0:38:32.120
<v Speaker 1>seattleites and their song was awesome.

0:38:32.480 --> 0:38:34.719
<v Speaker 2>Nice remember body Count with Iced Tea?

0:38:35.160 --> 0:38:37.200
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, I saw them at the first Lollapalooza.

0:38:37.719 --> 0:38:38.200
<v Speaker 2>Nice.

0:38:38.520 --> 0:38:40.160
<v Speaker 1>That was when Iced Tea was still making music. And

0:38:40.280 --> 0:38:42.719
<v Speaker 1>was it like he's on that He's on that cop

0:38:42.760 --> 0:38:43.680
<v Speaker 1>show forever now right?

0:38:44.280 --> 0:38:47.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I mean this is a rapper who had a

0:38:47.120 --> 0:38:51.319
<v Speaker 2>song called cop Killer. Yeah, and he plays a cop,

0:38:51.440 --> 0:38:54.920
<v Speaker 2>and apparently he's gone through some like metamorphosis in the

0:38:55.000 --> 0:38:59.759
<v Speaker 2>eyes of police and people who support police. I bet

0:38:59.760 --> 0:39:02.480
<v Speaker 2>from hating him to being like, hey, he's actually kind

0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:04.840
<v Speaker 2>of a good guy because he plays a cop on TV.

0:39:04.960 --> 0:39:06.600
<v Speaker 2>So well, it's really interesting.

0:39:07.000 --> 0:39:09.359
<v Speaker 1>No, I remember the time, boy, he was persona non

0:39:09.360 --> 0:39:11.600
<v Speaker 1>grata for law enforcement.

0:39:11.239 --> 0:39:13.720
<v Speaker 2>For sure, and Icy didn't care. He's like, just watch,

0:39:14.200 --> 0:39:16.759
<v Speaker 2>I'll be back in the most surprising way you can

0:39:16.800 --> 0:39:18.320
<v Speaker 2>possibly imagine.

0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:20.839
<v Speaker 1>As literal iced tea.

0:39:21.000 --> 0:39:22.800
<v Speaker 2>He's like, well, not that surprising.

0:39:22.480 --> 0:39:25.040
<v Speaker 1>Right, the second most surprising thing? You mean you play

0:39:25.040 --> 0:39:25.960
<v Speaker 1>a cop on a TV show?

0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:29.240
<v Speaker 2>He said, yep, bingo, that's what he was naring to say. Bingo.

0:39:30.280 --> 0:39:32.680
<v Speaker 1>Oh man, we're getting really sidetracked. This is a fun one.

0:39:33.680 --> 0:39:35.600
<v Speaker 1>Who knew the Rosenbergs are going to bring this out?

0:39:35.719 --> 0:39:36.400
<v Speaker 2>I did not know.

0:39:37.080 --> 0:39:39.239
<v Speaker 1>So it was a three week trial in all, like

0:39:39.280 --> 0:39:42.440
<v Speaker 1>you said, they till the end said they were not guilty.

0:39:42.680 --> 0:39:45.960
<v Speaker 1>The trial concluded in March of nineteen fifty one guilty

0:39:46.000 --> 0:39:51.279
<v Speaker 1>all three defendants sentenced. The third guy, Morton Sobell, to

0:39:51.320 --> 0:39:55.359
<v Speaker 1>thirty years in prison, sentence the Rosenberg's to death, saying

0:39:55.360 --> 0:39:57.879
<v Speaker 1>their crime was worse than murder and that their work

0:39:58.920 --> 0:40:02.359
<v Speaker 1>caused the communist aggression in Korea, so they were really

0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:05.360
<v Speaker 1>taking the fall for a lot here. There were a

0:40:05.400 --> 0:40:11.000
<v Speaker 1>lot of appeals that were launched by Manny Block and company,

0:40:12.000 --> 0:40:14.840
<v Speaker 1>petitioning the Supreme Court delayed things by a couple of years.

0:40:14.880 --> 0:40:17.760
<v Speaker 1>All of those failed, but he did launch a pretty

0:40:17.800 --> 0:40:21.399
<v Speaker 1>successful media campaign that got a lot of people very

0:40:21.400 --> 0:40:23.360
<v Speaker 1>interested in the Rosenberg's sentence.

0:40:23.600 --> 0:40:26.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he finally got a newspaper to agree to look

0:40:26.920 --> 0:40:30.279
<v Speaker 2>into the case. It was the National Guardian, a very

0:40:30.400 --> 0:40:34.600
<v Speaker 2>left wing paper, and they investigated it and produced a

0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:38.440
<v Speaker 2>very sympathetic, what I take to be, long form article

0:40:38.719 --> 0:40:43.400
<v Speaker 2>on the Rosenberg's case, and that that article created a

0:40:43.440 --> 0:40:46.719
<v Speaker 2>bunch of other press which spread further and further, really

0:40:46.800 --> 0:40:49.680
<v Speaker 2>drummed up public sympathy to the point where they were

0:40:49.719 --> 0:40:52.160
<v Speaker 2>holding vigils where a thousand people would show up in

0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:57.680
<v Speaker 2>cities around the world in support of them, and people

0:40:57.760 --> 0:41:00.640
<v Speaker 2>thought like, this is this is not right. Pablo Picasso,

0:41:01.080 --> 0:41:05.240
<v Speaker 2>Albert Einstein, the Pope, they all said like these people

0:41:05.239 --> 0:41:10.279
<v Speaker 2>should not be executed, certainly not Ethel should be executed.

0:41:10.400 --> 0:41:13.440
<v Speaker 2>And the judges like, I don't, I can't hear you.

0:41:13.560 --> 0:41:15.880
<v Speaker 2>He had his fingers in his ears, like la la la.

0:41:16.760 --> 0:41:19.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and their historians to say like this all just

0:41:19.440 --> 0:41:23.640
<v Speaker 1>sort of organically came about because of this press. The DOJ,

0:41:23.840 --> 0:41:26.319
<v Speaker 1>of course, was like no, no, no. The Communist Party

0:41:26.360 --> 0:41:29.200
<v Speaker 1>of the United States and the Communist Party overall launched

0:41:29.239 --> 0:41:33.520
<v Speaker 1>a propaganda campaign on behalf of the Rosenbergs. So you know,

0:41:33.640 --> 0:41:36.400
<v Speaker 1>it's a bit of a he said, she said, or

0:41:36.440 --> 0:41:38.960
<v Speaker 1>they said they said in this case. But here's the

0:41:39.040 --> 0:41:41.279
<v Speaker 1>deal on the execution. You said it was a game

0:41:41.320 --> 0:41:43.600
<v Speaker 1>of chicken early on, and I'm sure people that noticed

0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:47.279
<v Speaker 1>that that mentioned were like, what is Josh talking about

0:41:47.320 --> 0:41:50.080
<v Speaker 1>a game of chicken? And this is what you were

0:41:50.080 --> 0:41:53.239
<v Speaker 1>talking about. Was the idea was even Herbert Hoover did

0:41:53.239 --> 0:41:57.040
<v Speaker 1>not want to execute them, and it was all a

0:41:57.040 --> 0:42:00.200
<v Speaker 1>ploy to try up until the last moment. And there

0:42:00.200 --> 0:42:03.239
<v Speaker 1>were supposedly people on the on the walk to the

0:42:03.280 --> 0:42:05.600
<v Speaker 1>electric traier that were like, don't want to change your mind,

0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:07.000
<v Speaker 1>because you don't have to die right now. If you

0:42:07.040 --> 0:42:08.239
<v Speaker 1>want to give up some names.

0:42:08.040 --> 0:42:11.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, So the execution was essentially leveraged, just like

0:42:12.040 --> 0:42:16.319
<v Speaker 2>they used Ethel. They railroaded Ethyl into a conviction to

0:42:16.440 --> 0:42:18.840
<v Speaker 2>use his leverage against Julius to get him to flip

0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:23.120
<v Speaker 2>on other spies. They used the death sentence in the

0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:26.319
<v Speaker 2>exact same way. And they expected one or both of

0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:28.560
<v Speaker 2>them to be like, Okay, yeah, okay, that's fine, it's

0:42:28.600 --> 0:42:31.479
<v Speaker 2>not we got two young kids at home. Let's all

0:42:31.520 --> 0:42:34.560
<v Speaker 2>just cool off. We'll give you some names and some information.

0:42:35.040 --> 0:42:38.480
<v Speaker 2>And Ethel Rosenberg and Julius Rosenberg did not do that.

0:42:38.960 --> 0:42:41.520
<v Speaker 2>And in fact, there was the head I think he

0:42:41.640 --> 0:42:45.160
<v Speaker 2>was a deputy Attorney general at the time, who said

0:42:45.600 --> 0:42:49.760
<v Speaker 2>Ethel Rosenberg called our bluff. So rather than one party

0:42:49.840 --> 0:42:53.520
<v Speaker 2>the DOJ or the Rosenbergs veering off at the last second,

0:42:53.880 --> 0:42:57.960
<v Speaker 2>they crashed head on and Ethel Rosenberg and Julius Rosenberg

0:42:57.960 --> 0:43:01.560
<v Speaker 2>were put to death, even though essentially no one thought

0:43:01.600 --> 0:43:04.279
<v Speaker 2>that was the right thing to do. And that's how

0:43:04.320 --> 0:43:04.919
<v Speaker 2>they went down.

0:43:05.480 --> 0:43:07.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I mean didn't you find too that Hoover

0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:11.240
<v Speaker 1>even himself got in touch with a judge and was like, hey, listen,

0:43:11.480 --> 0:43:14.239
<v Speaker 1>we don't want you to install the death penalty here,

0:43:14.280 --> 0:43:16.040
<v Speaker 1>and the judge was had his fingers in his ear.

0:43:16.160 --> 0:43:21.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the FBI took an official stance that that Ethel

0:43:21.239 --> 0:43:25.040
<v Speaker 2>in particular should not be executed. That was the official

0:43:25.040 --> 0:43:28.240
<v Speaker 2>stance of the FBI, and it still happened anyway.

0:43:29.040 --> 0:43:30.959
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't a good look. I mean, they were worried

0:43:30.960 --> 0:43:34.400
<v Speaker 1>about the optics for sure, of especially because they were

0:43:34.440 --> 0:43:37.480
<v Speaker 1>Jewish and you know, coming off the heels of World

0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:39.839
<v Speaker 1>War two and they're like, they got two young kids.

0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:41.440
<v Speaker 1>You cannot execute this woman.

0:43:42.200 --> 0:43:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and even more so Manny Block, Remember he was

0:43:45.640 --> 0:43:49.080
<v Speaker 2>like an appeal machine. He had one last Hail Mary.

0:43:48.800 --> 0:43:51.840
<v Speaker 1>Appeal that that was on the billboard on the highway.

0:43:52.080 --> 0:43:55.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, with somebody holding a check for a million

0:43:55.880 --> 0:43:59.840
<v Speaker 2>dollars that he got for them for their bakery. So

0:44:00.440 --> 0:44:04.880
<v Speaker 2>he filed one last appeal and he basically said, dude,

0:44:05.760 --> 0:44:09.280
<v Speaker 2>you're going to execute two Jewish people at the beginning

0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:12.520
<v Speaker 2>of the Sabbath. Do you know how bad that's going

0:44:12.600 --> 0:44:17.480
<v Speaker 2>to upset the Jewish community worldwide? And Judge Kaufman, who

0:44:17.520 --> 0:44:20.200
<v Speaker 2>was Jewish himself, said, you know, I hadn't really thought

0:44:20.280 --> 0:44:23.239
<v Speaker 2>of that, And Manny Block's like, great, so let's postpone

0:44:23.280 --> 0:44:26.880
<v Speaker 2>this indefinitely, And Judge Coffin said no, no, we're just

0:44:26.920 --> 0:44:30.640
<v Speaker 2>going to move it three hours earlier before the Sabbath starts.

0:44:30.960 --> 0:44:33.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. They were put to death at eight pm, and

0:44:33.480 --> 0:44:37.640
<v Speaker 1>that judge was a real sob. They had a funeral

0:44:37.640 --> 0:44:40.320
<v Speaker 1>in Brooklyn in June twenty first, nineteen fifty three, where

0:44:40.360 --> 0:44:45.480
<v Speaker 1>ten thousand people reportedly attended. They were buried finally accepted

0:44:45.480 --> 0:44:48.000
<v Speaker 1>after some closer cemetery said no, at the Wellwood Jewish

0:44:48.000 --> 0:44:52.399
<v Speaker 1>Cemetery in Long Island, and the boys it's just still

0:44:52.400 --> 0:44:55.880
<v Speaker 1>hard to believe they didn't know that one of them, didn't,

0:44:55.960 --> 0:44:57.759
<v Speaker 1>you know, for the sake of being a parent to

0:44:57.800 --> 0:45:01.200
<v Speaker 1>their kids, didn't recant, But they didn't, And those boys,

0:45:01.280 --> 0:45:05.879
<v Speaker 1>Robert and Michael, were adopted by Anne and Abel mirror Pole.

0:45:06.560 --> 0:45:10.799
<v Speaker 1>Little interesting side note here. Abel wrote the song Strange Fruit.

0:45:11.600 --> 0:45:13.440
<v Speaker 2>Which have you ever heard the Susie and the Banshees

0:45:13.560 --> 0:45:14.080
<v Speaker 2>version of that?

0:45:14.640 --> 0:45:16.239
<v Speaker 1>Oh no, but that's great.

0:45:16.320 --> 0:45:18.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's really good. That's how I first heard that song.

0:45:19.200 --> 0:45:21.439
<v Speaker 1>Another reference to the first Lallapalooza. Even who knew?

0:45:21.840 --> 0:45:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Wow, that's really something.

0:45:24.719 --> 0:45:28.680
<v Speaker 1>Wow, I know, right, did not expect that. Billy Joel

0:45:28.760 --> 0:45:31.640
<v Speaker 1>is spinning in his piano stool right now.

0:45:31.640 --> 0:45:33.680
<v Speaker 2>He's like, I know, I should have accepted that offer.

0:45:34.200 --> 0:45:34.480
<v Speaker 2>I know.

0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:39.279
<v Speaker 1>Michael got a PhD In economics, and Robert Rosenberg became

0:45:39.280 --> 0:45:40.360
<v Speaker 1>an attorney.

0:45:40.040 --> 0:45:42.480
<v Speaker 2>And both of them, they've dedicated their lives of trying

0:45:42.480 --> 0:45:46.359
<v Speaker 2>to clear their parents' names. Finally, after years and years

0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:48.279
<v Speaker 2>and years, they admitted, like, Okay, dad was a spy,

0:45:48.320 --> 0:45:51.359
<v Speaker 2>but not mom. Yeah, and you said that. They were

0:45:51.400 --> 0:45:55.120
<v Speaker 2>criticized by some people for basically choosing loyalty to Joseph

0:45:55.160 --> 0:45:58.839
<v Speaker 2>Stalin over their two children and leaving them behind, and

0:45:59.239 --> 0:46:03.279
<v Speaker 2>David Green Glass again who lied to and got his

0:46:03.400 --> 0:46:06.960
<v Speaker 2>sister and brother in law killed. I said they were stupid.

0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:09.160
<v Speaker 2>He said, that was a really stupid thing for them

0:46:09.160 --> 0:46:12.080
<v Speaker 2>to do, to not accept some sort of bargain to

0:46:12.360 --> 0:46:15.960
<v Speaker 2>take the death penalty off the table. That's his opinion

0:46:16.000 --> 0:46:21.800
<v Speaker 2>on the whole thing. Wow, that's what I said too. Yeah,

0:46:21.840 --> 0:46:24.319
<v Speaker 2>and oh, I should say real quick, the reason that

0:46:24.360 --> 0:46:28.560
<v Speaker 2>the brothers the sons finally were like, okay, Dad was

0:46:28.560 --> 0:46:31.400
<v Speaker 2>a spy was because those Venona tables we talked about earlier.

0:46:31.560 --> 0:46:32.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they were.

0:46:32.520 --> 0:46:36.120
<v Speaker 2>Finally released starting in the nineties, and it showed quite

0:46:36.200 --> 0:46:40.600
<v Speaker 2>clearly that Julius was a very enthusiastic spy for the

0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:45.880
<v Speaker 2>Soviet Union and probably Ethel definitely knew about it. But

0:46:45.960 --> 0:46:48.719
<v Speaker 2>she may have been involved in recruiting Ruth, and if

0:46:48.760 --> 0:46:51.560
<v Speaker 2>she did that, she was definitely a spy. But again,

0:46:51.560 --> 0:46:55.680
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't change most people's thoughts that they probably should

0:46:55.760 --> 0:46:57.000
<v Speaker 2>not have been executed.

0:46:57.480 --> 0:47:01.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, totally, because I mean that's a whole differferent argument.

0:47:01.400 --> 0:47:04.600
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's like, maybe they were guilty, but you

0:47:04.600 --> 0:47:06.520
<v Speaker 1>should not have put them to death. That's what a

0:47:06.520 --> 0:47:07.480
<v Speaker 1>lot of people seem to think.

0:47:07.560 --> 0:47:10.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, including people from their own spiring didn't

0:47:11.000 --> 0:47:12.960
<v Speaker 2>even come close to the death sentence. It was just

0:47:13.080 --> 0:47:16.040
<v Speaker 2>specifically leverage that just never got taken away because the

0:47:16.040 --> 0:47:18.799
<v Speaker 2>government wasn't about to be like, okay, you got us,

0:47:18.800 --> 0:47:20.040
<v Speaker 2>all right, we won't kill you.

0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:20.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:47:20.640 --> 0:47:22.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it's just crazy.

0:47:23.680 --> 0:47:25.400
<v Speaker 1>Boy. Yeah, this is a fun win. And there was

0:47:25.400 --> 0:47:27.160
<v Speaker 1>a lot of jokes. I hope it didn't come across

0:47:27.160 --> 0:47:30.160
<v Speaker 1>as insensitive. I mean that's kind of what we do here,

0:47:30.280 --> 0:47:34.360
<v Speaker 1>so not be insensitive. Try to you know, kind of

0:47:34.360 --> 0:47:35.760
<v Speaker 1>make jokes about stuff.

0:47:36.360 --> 0:47:38.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if you can't laugh about everything, then what can

0:47:38.880 --> 0:47:40.200
<v Speaker 2>you laugh at?

0:47:40.840 --> 0:47:41.160
<v Speaker 1>Nothing?

0:47:41.600 --> 0:47:45.560
<v Speaker 2>Exactly? Actually I don't know if that's exactly true, but

0:47:45.680 --> 0:47:48.440
<v Speaker 2>still yeah, since Chuck said exactly.

0:47:48.480 --> 0:47:50.040
<v Speaker 1>That's not to examine that way exactly.

0:47:51.000 --> 0:47:52.480
<v Speaker 2>It's listener mail time.

0:47:55.440 --> 0:47:58.160
<v Speaker 1>That's right. This is about we heard from a lot

0:47:58.239 --> 0:48:02.120
<v Speaker 1>of our Canadian friends. We love it when Canada points

0:48:02.160 --> 0:48:04.759
<v Speaker 1>out something that they know that we don't, and in

0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:08.040
<v Speaker 1>this case, it's about Cole's Notes. A great episode about

0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:10.000
<v Speaker 1>the Cliffs Notes guys. The name rings of Bell to

0:48:10.080 --> 0:48:13.279
<v Speaker 1>me probably through American movies and TV, but as a

0:48:13.280 --> 0:48:16.759
<v Speaker 1>millennial Canadian, I'm far more familiar with Cole's Notes. Cole

0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:19.840
<v Speaker 1>was a legendary bookstore across Canada, and so every location

0:48:19.880 --> 0:48:22.720
<v Speaker 1>had a stand of Cole's Notes booklets focused on books

0:48:22.719 --> 0:48:26.040
<v Speaker 1>and plays covered in the Canadian school curriculum. I even

0:48:26.080 --> 0:48:29.080
<v Speaker 1>remember reading them in school alongside Shakespeare plays to understand

0:48:29.120 --> 0:48:31.359
<v Speaker 1>the better. Yes, they were often used to cram before

0:48:31.360 --> 0:48:34.000
<v Speaker 1>a test without reading the material. They're also used as

0:48:34.040 --> 0:48:38.399
<v Speaker 1>coal intended chapters. Slash Indigo is the big Canadian book

0:48:38.440 --> 0:48:41.680
<v Speaker 1>read tailor now and they bought out the Cole's locations,

0:48:41.920 --> 0:48:44.520
<v Speaker 1>but they still print and sell Cole's Notes today, so

0:48:44.560 --> 0:48:47.480
<v Speaker 1>that guy did alright in the Canadian market. Thanks for

0:48:47.520 --> 0:48:50.120
<v Speaker 1>making me a little smarter each week. And that is

0:48:50.200 --> 0:48:56.640
<v Speaker 1>from Natalie gud orm Son Catormson, great name from Alberta, Canada.

0:48:56.760 --> 0:48:58.919
<v Speaker 2>Thanks a lot, Natalie, Thanks for making us a little

0:48:59.000 --> 0:49:02.759
<v Speaker 2>smarter this week. We appreciate it big time. Yeah. And

0:49:02.840 --> 0:49:04.839
<v Speaker 2>if you want to be like Natalie and tell us

0:49:04.840 --> 0:49:07.440
<v Speaker 2>something we didn't know. We love that kind of thing.

0:49:07.840 --> 0:49:10.440
<v Speaker 2>You can send it off to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio

0:49:10.520 --> 0:49:14.160
<v Speaker 2>dot com.

0:49:14.320 --> 0:49:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

0:49:17.280 --> 0:49:21.440
<v Speaker 1>more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:49:21.560 --> 0:49:23.400
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,