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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and this is Stuff you should know the podcast.

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Speaker 1: That's right that we didn't start the fire edition. It's

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Speaker 1: funny because that may have been the first time I've

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Speaker 1: heard about the Rosenbergs. Rosenberg's H bomb Sugar Ray, panmun jump.

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Speaker 2: What was the last part? I've never known what the

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Speaker 2: heck he was saying.

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Speaker 1: P A n m u n j o m one

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Speaker 1: word pan muon JOm, Brando, the King and I and

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Speaker 1: the catcher in.

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Speaker 2: There all right, back up? What is panmu JOm?

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't know, buddy, you'll have to listen to that.

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Speaker 1: We didn't start the fire History podcast because I was

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Speaker 1: like earlier today, I was like, oh man, what a

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Speaker 1: great basis for a history podcast. No, yeah, of course

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Speaker 1: it was a thing. Know, it's got a shelf life

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Speaker 1: because they I guess, went through all of them from

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Speaker 1: one to twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: So was each each lyric its own episode.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I would, I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: how I would do it, because you can get a

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Speaker 1: lot of mileage out of that song.

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Speaker 2: For sure. That's really cool. That's off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah I didn't check it out, but.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't check it out.

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Speaker 1: There's a man. Surely they didn't do one each because

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Speaker 1: there's so many references and only ran for two years

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Speaker 1: unless yeah, Daily Show.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they just got bored after like halfway through they forget.

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Speaker 1: This anyway, this is a that's Billy Joel's worst song, probably,

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Speaker 1: And this is a this is a podcast about the Rosenbergs.

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Speaker 2: Well, what was his best song? And if you don't

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Speaker 2: say Uptown Girl, you're wrong?

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Speaker 1: Probably Miami twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know what that is.

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Speaker 1: I've seen the lights go out on Broadway. That's a

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Speaker 1: great song. But I'm a Billy Joel, like super I'm

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Speaker 1: a stand So are you really?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you didn't know that?

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Speaker 2: No, I had no idea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Glasshouses was the first record ever bought that. I've

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Speaker 1: seen him live like a dozen times.

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Speaker 2: I had no idea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I like, it's kind of cool to listen to

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Speaker 1: Billy Joel now. But I suffered many decades of people

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Speaker 1: making fun of me because I would like, go see

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Speaker 1: a Pavement show and then put on Billy Joel the

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Speaker 1: next day.

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Speaker 2: Man, people just stink sometimes.

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Speaker 1: Hey man, you have a variety of tastes, as.

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Speaker 2: Do you, for sure, and people should be left alone

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Speaker 2: and not have their tastes made fun of.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll go to bat for Billy Joel in any

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Speaker 1: day of the week, my friend.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you who maybe should have been left alone,

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Speaker 2: and that's Ethel Rosenberg.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I guess we should give us sort of an

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Speaker 1: overview of this before we dig in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, fair enough.

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Speaker 1: So the Rosenberg's, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were a married couple.

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Speaker 1: They lived in New York City, were from New York City,

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Speaker 1: and they were convicted of committing espionage in nineteen fifty

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Speaker 1: one and executed and put to death, which was This

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Speaker 1: is a very big deal for a few reasons. One

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Speaker 1: is because a lot of historians basically say, like, I

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Speaker 1: don't think Ethel did this, and she was probably innocent,

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Speaker 1: even though Julius did, And a lot of people say,

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Speaker 1: and even if he did, and she might have known

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Speaker 1: about it, Like executing these two people with two young

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Speaker 1: sons when no one else was getting executed for this

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Speaker 1: at the time, was a travesty of justice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And as we'll see, they got caught up in

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Speaker 2: Cold War communists aastaria and we're basically put into a

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Speaker 2: deadly game of chicken essentially, is what it amounts to.

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Speaker 2: And totally it's one of those blemishes on the Department

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Speaker 2: of Justice that's never really gonna go away that they

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Speaker 2: did this. We'll see, we'll explain, but it's just a

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Speaker 2: sad story all around. We want to say, Julius Rosenberg

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Speaker 2: definitely was a spy for the Soviet Union, an enthusiastic

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Speaker 2: one whose spy career spanned more than a decade. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Ethyl probably was in some way, shape or format at

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Speaker 2: least abetting it, if not some way minorly supporting it.

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Speaker 2: She may have also played an even bigger role. But

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Speaker 2: I personally do not think that both of them were innocent.

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Speaker 2: Some people say that, just based on the research I've done,

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Speaker 2: it just seems clear as day that they weren't both innocent.

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Speaker 2: But to put them both to death. They were not

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Speaker 2: the only spies who were caught and convicted during the

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Speaker 2: Cold War. They were the only spies caught and convicted

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Speaker 2: during the Cold War who were executed. And that's what

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Speaker 2: makes the whole thing so significant.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So let's go back and talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about their early life. We can kind of

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Speaker 1: re see this first part, but I mentioned they were

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Speaker 1: both born in New York. Ethel was born there in

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifteen, had a few brothers, went to Seward Park

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Speaker 1: High School. She was big into theater, and this would

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Speaker 1: come up because she loved to sing and dance, and

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Speaker 1: later on, when she started to get a little political

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Speaker 1: and was going to union events, she would like perform sometimes,

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Speaker 1: I guess to you know, just make it a little

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Speaker 1: more fun, Like, Hey, we're at the union meeting, and

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Speaker 1: now here's a song from Ethel. I guess at the

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Speaker 1: time greenngrass.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the Communist blues with a nice little communist tap dance.

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Speaker 1: Julius was also born in New York. He's a few

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Speaker 1: years younger, born in nineteen eighteen to Polish immigrants, and

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Speaker 1: he also went to Seward Park High School. But I

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Speaker 1: don't think they knew each other there. It seemed like

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Speaker 1: they met when he was at City College and she

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Speaker 1: was working as a secretary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and by this time when they met they had

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Speaker 2: both their interests in communism. It definitely blossomed. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think Julius is even more than Ethel's by them, but

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Speaker 2: Ethel I think it participated in a strike and was

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Speaker 2: fired from her workplace for participating in a strike, and

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Speaker 2: she was like, I think I'm into workers' rights now. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So when they met, it was at a charity benefit

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Speaker 2: for the International Siemens Union SEA M E N and

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Speaker 2: so they were both like, I'm a communist, you're a communist.

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Speaker 2: Let's get together and make little communist babies.

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Speaker 1: And do the communist shuffle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he was definitely more into it. He joined a

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Speaker 1: group called the Steinmetz Society, who was an affiliate of

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Speaker 1: the Young Communist League, and he had a couple of

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Speaker 1: friends that are gonna come up later in a sort

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Speaker 1: of a small issue, but just put pins in the

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Speaker 1: names Morton Sobel and Max Elector, who were buddies he

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Speaker 1: made while he was sort of in this affiliated with

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Speaker 1: a Young Communist League group society.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And they had very similar ideas to his.

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Speaker 2: And in nineteen forty did you say that he trained

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Speaker 2: as an electrical engineer. That's what he studied.

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Speaker 1: I know, but you're right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was hired as an engineer for the US

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Speaker 2: Army Signal Corps. And when he was hired, he clapped

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Speaker 2: his hands and rubbed him together and said, what can

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Speaker 2: I steal and pass along a secrets to the Soviet Union?

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Speaker 1: Essentially, yeah, basically he had one miner brush with the FBI.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen forty one, he was called into what's called

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Speaker 1: a loyalty meeting. I guess just sort of sniffed people

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Speaker 1: off the case and see how loyal they were to

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Speaker 1: the United States, because they found a couple of mentions

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Speaker 1: of Ethel in the FBI files, one that she had

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Speaker 1: signed a petition for a communist city council candidate and

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Speaker 1: another that was just someone who gave a tip that

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Speaker 1: accused her of having Communist leanings. But he was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not even into politics that much, which is a lie,

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Speaker 1: let alone communism, which was also a lie. And so

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Speaker 1: they pretty much dropped the case, and in nineteen forty

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Speaker 1: two they moved to the Lower east Side to the

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Speaker 1: Knickerbocker Village and started having those baby communists, Like you said, is.

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Speaker 2: The Knickerbocker Village still around? Is that like a neighborhood

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Speaker 2: in the Lower east Side.

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Speaker 1: I don't hear it referenced. I mean, I'm sure you

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Speaker 1: could tell where it was, but I don't. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if there are any modern references or signage or

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Speaker 1: anything like that, or it might be wrong, but I've

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Speaker 1: never seen it.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's the KBV that all the cool people in

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Speaker 2: New York talk about. What is that Knickerbocker village? Gotcha? Okay,

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Speaker 2: so we've we've laid the foundation. There's Julius, there's Ethel.

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Speaker 2: Their kids have come along. They're both very loyal Communists,

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Speaker 2: especially as we'll see, and Julius's big time into spying

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Speaker 2: and he became a spy. It's not actually clear how

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Speaker 2: that happened. To tell you the truth, there's many different accounts.

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Speaker 2: One is Julius's account, which is that he never spied

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Speaker 2: and it was framed by the government. Yeah, that's demonstrably untrue.

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Speaker 2: His brother in law, David's account, which will get into

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Speaker 2: more later, but he basically said that Julius would like

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Speaker 2: He actually went so far as to go to the

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Speaker 2: Soviet embassy in New York and said, Hey, can I

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Speaker 2: do some spying for you guys. I'm a big fan,

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Speaker 2: like he would he would basically just he wanted to spy.

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Speaker 2: He was putting himself out there. And then there are

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Speaker 2: a couple of others that are probably likelier than either

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Speaker 2: of the other two.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, one Soviet agent named Alexander Feksilov said he was

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Speaker 1: just introduced to another Soviet agent at a Labor Day

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Speaker 1: rally in Central Park. His name was Semon Semyonov. And

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Speaker 1: then other people said, now it was another intelligence person.

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Speaker 1: So we don't know how he got into it. But

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Speaker 1: to set the stage of why he might have done this,

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Speaker 1: it was a time in the nineteen forties when the

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Speaker 1: US and the Soviets were allied against the Nazis, and

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Speaker 1: there are historians that say, like Julius didn't think he

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Speaker 1: was betraying the US. He thought he was fighting fascism

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Speaker 1: when he sort of started getting into spying for the Soviets.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about that, but that's what some people say.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's the most polite way you could

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Speaker 2: put it. Another way to say it is maybe be

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Speaker 2: betraying the United States was just an incidental part of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good way.

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Speaker 2: But I saw that one of the things he was

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Speaker 2: well known for. It's like he hated fascism so much

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Speaker 2: that he would be seen walking down the stream and

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Speaker 2: be like, I hate you fascism and he'd be punching

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Speaker 2: the air. Yeah, he hated fascism, So that was one

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Speaker 2: of his big motives for sure. Yeah, and in nineteen

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Speaker 2: forty two, so he's hired in nineteen forty I guess

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Speaker 2: he laid a little bit of groundwork for people trusting him.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen forty two, he started passing weapons information to

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Speaker 2: the Soviets, and some pretty big ones too. One of

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Speaker 2: the ones I saw was a proximity fuse, and that

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Speaker 2: is a tiny radio that is used in anti aircraft

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Speaker 2: guns that basically tells the anti aircraft gun okay, that

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Speaker 2: plane is now in range to do maximum damage to it. Fire. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's definitely something you want to have on your anti

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Speaker 2: aircraft gun. And he passed that along to the Soviets.

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Speaker 2: That was just one example, and he was He was

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Speaker 2: first handled by Semyon Semyonov, who you mentioned earlier. He

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Speaker 2: got handed off then to Alexander Feklisov, who you also

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Speaker 2: mentioned earlier. And so those twos account of how he

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Speaker 2: got into spying are probably the likeliest because they were

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Speaker 2: his spy masters when he was a spy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed also during this time, and this is pretty key.

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Speaker 1: He was trying to recruit other people who had that

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Speaker 1: sort of same political leanings as him and recruit them.

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Speaker 1: And one of those people was the aforementioned brother in law.

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Speaker 1: So this is David Greenglass and this is Ethel's Ethel's brother.

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Speaker 1: So in March nineteen forty five he was fired from

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Speaker 1: the Signal Corps. The FBI said, wait a minute, you've

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Speaker 1: got a Communist Party membership card and it's got your

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Speaker 1: name on it. And he was like, oh, okay, so

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Speaker 1: I don't work there anymore. I'm going to start up

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Speaker 1: my own business with Ethel's brothers, David who I just mentioned,

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Speaker 1: and Bernie, and it's called Pitt Machine Products. And that

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Speaker 1: did not go well. I guess that just wasn't a

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Speaker 1: good business. I think David accused Julius of being a

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Speaker 1: bad business person. He accused David of being a bad foreman.

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Speaker 1: And by nineteen forty eight the company was almost not

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Speaker 1: a company anymore.

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Speaker 2: No, it was just down to the original investors. I

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Speaker 2: just made scare quotes who were Julius and Ethel's two brothers,

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Speaker 2: David and Bernie. Right, So another big part of this problem,

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Speaker 2: I guess we should say what we're describing now is

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Speaker 2: animosity that kind of grew up. Yeah, between David and

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Speaker 2: Julius specifically, there was just some tension, even though they

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Speaker 2: still remained in one another's lives, highly involved in one

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Speaker 2: another's lives. Some historians point to this specific instance of

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Speaker 2: them going into business together, which is, yeah, all a

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Speaker 2: bad idea to go into business with family. Uh, across

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Speaker 2: the board. Okay again, we'll go back to my original motto,

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Speaker 2: never trust family.

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Speaker 1: Never trust family. Man. He's been saying that for years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, Julius Rosenberg would agree with me, so would Ethel.

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Speaker 2: But so David started to become resentful, and there was

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Speaker 2: animosity throughout this period, and some people point to that

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Speaker 2: as the basis of what came later.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, David had borrowed a lot of money

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Speaker 1: from Julius without returning it. So the animosity is building.

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Speaker 1: His wife, David's wife, Ruth, so their sister in law,

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Speaker 1: the Rosenberg sister in law. She in February of nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty was a lit a fire when her nightgown brushed

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Speaker 1: up against the heater of her apartment. She had a

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Speaker 1: lot of hospitalization and severe burns and high medical bills

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Speaker 1: and gave birth to a daughter while she was recovering

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Speaker 1: from this. So all this is just to basically set up,

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Speaker 1: like you said that David is he's in a pretty

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Speaker 1: bad place in his life at this time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's going through a rough patch.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So we'll talk a little bit more about what happened,

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Speaker 2: because there's different accounts depending on who you talk to.

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Speaker 2: But what we do know that happened next was that

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Speaker 2: they started to get caught. So the whole thing kicked

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Speaker 2: off in February of nineteen fifty when a guy named

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Speaker 2: Klaus Fuchs, who was a physicist, he was British. He

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Speaker 2: was discovered by I six as being a Soviet spy,

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Speaker 2: and he was a big time Soviet spy. Apparently the

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Speaker 2: spying he did is estimated to have helped the Soviets

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Speaker 2: skip ahead an entire year in their development of the

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Speaker 2: atomic bomb. Huge, huge damaging spy. And when he was

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Speaker 2: caught he implicated others, but he didn't know others' names,

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Speaker 2: He only knew their code names, and he mentioned Raymond Well.

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Speaker 2: The FBI, the US government had what are now known

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Speaker 2: as the Venona Cables. The US had cracked secret cables

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Speaker 2: that were encrypted that the USSR had sent during World

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Speaker 2: War two, and in it it talked about a lot

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Speaker 2: of the spies working for them, and by having these

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Speaker 2: Venona cables and knowing people's different code names, they were

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Speaker 2: able to basically root out at least one hundred spies

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Speaker 2: using these cables. And Klaus Fuchs was first, and then

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Speaker 2: after Klaus Fuchs was Harry Gold, who was the rayman

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Speaker 2: that Klaus Fuchs mentioned in his confession.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, so he was his US contact, Fuchs's

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Speaker 1: US contact. And then eventually that trickled down and Gold

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Speaker 1: led them to David green Glass, the Rosenberg's brother and

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Speaker 1: brother in law.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So on June fifteenth, nineteen fifty, the FEDS got David

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Speaker 1: green Glass and they rounded him up, brought him to

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Speaker 1: HQ to question him, and he was, I'm not into

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Speaker 1: espionage at all, like deny, deny, deny, which is I

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Speaker 1: guess the sensible thing to do. But then they said no,

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Speaker 1: this guy, Harry Gold, identified a photo of you, and

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Speaker 1: he went, okay, you got me. I am committing espionage.

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Speaker 1: He was arrested and he said, I passed on this

302
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Speaker 1: atomic information and we'll get to how he knew this stuff.

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Speaker 1: In a minute. I passed it on to Harry Gold

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Speaker 1: in June nineteen forty five. I was initially recruited to

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Speaker 1: do this by my wife, Ruth, and Ruth was recruited

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Speaker 1: by no good brother in law Julius. Key to all

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Speaker 1: this is that he never mentioned Ethel being involved at first.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. That's a big one right there. Just put that

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Speaker 2: in your pipe and stick it in your hat, right Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Should we take a break down and talk about what

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Speaker 2: came next?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good cliffhanger.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we'll be right back. So the FEDS have David

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Speaker 2: Greenglass now, who was one degree removed from the Rosenbergs,

315
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Speaker 2: and he's already implicated Julius, but not Ethel. So the

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Speaker 2: FBI goes to start talking to Julius. They questioned him

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Speaker 2: in June of nineteen fifty and I guess basically the

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Speaker 2: day after they started talking to David Greenglass's brother in law,

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Speaker 2: pretty quick. Yeah, and they didn't have enough on Julius

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Speaker 2: to bust him yet. They knew enough because again, remember

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Speaker 2: they had the Venona cables and all of these people

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Speaker 2: are mentioned in the Venona Cables. They had basically figured

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Speaker 2: out who was who, but the Venona cables were so

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Speaker 2: sensitive and so highly cied the FBI, the Department of

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Speaker 2: Justice could not use them in court. Oh yeah, so

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Speaker 2: they could only use them as a background information. And

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Speaker 2: then they had to extract these confessions and piece together

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Speaker 2: like as if those things didn't exist. So they knew everything,

329
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Speaker 2: but they had to basically get David Greenglass and then

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Speaker 2: later his wife Ruth to talk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which they did over the course of a month

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Speaker 1: or so. They started talking to Ruth, kept talking to

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Speaker 1: David and about Yeah, like one month later, July seventeenth,

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Speaker 1: they said, all right, we got enough, We're going to

335
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Speaker 1: arrest Julius. And then a little less than a month later,

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Speaker 1: on August eleventh, after Ethel participated in the grand jury

337
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Speaker 1: hearing for her husband, she was also arrested and they

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Speaker 1: were both charged with conspiracy to commit espionage. And that

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00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,280
Speaker 1: was under the Espionage Act of nineteen seventeen.

340
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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, for some reason, going and being just a

341
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Speaker 2: part of a grand jury trial and then getting arrested

342
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Speaker 2: right after, I can't compare it to anything, but it

343
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Speaker 2: just seems almost mean, like there should be a break

344
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Speaker 2: in between, like you think you're going in and you're

345
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 2: gonna be fine and then bam, you get arrested on

346
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Speaker 2: the like as you're walking out.

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Speaker 1: It just just mean, It's like the when they invited

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Speaker 1: everyone of the football game the criminals.

349
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a good one.

350
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Speaker 1: Operation What was that?

351
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,680
Speaker 2: Uh? No, that was maybe that was the one where

352
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Speaker 2: they created the corpse that they threw overboard World War

353
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Speaker 2: two to fool the Nazis.

354
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that inspired a Broadway show. But I think maybe

355
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Speaker 1: a Broadway show should be inspired by the Redskins football game.

356
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Speaker 2: I agree, And I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet.

357
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Speaker 1: Yeah, or at least a Simpsons episode.

358
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Speaker 2: I'm surprised that hasn't happened yet. No, it did. Remember

359
00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,240
Speaker 2: we talked about it where they had the free boat giveaway.

360
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Speaker 1: That's why I said, wink wink.

361
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Speaker 2: Oh god, I didn't know you were winking at me.

362
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Speaker 1: You're like, I thought you were just alurting, right, all right,

363
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 1: So we should tell the story, and this is the

364
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,920
Speaker 1: official story according to the Department of Justice, on how

365
00:19:58,000 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 1: this all went down. So we're just gonna kind of

366
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Speaker 1: tell it that way to begin with. Yeah, I mentioned

367
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,680
Speaker 1: David Grenglass had atomic secrets and how he got those?

368
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Speaker 1: Was he was in the army in nineteen forty three,

369
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Speaker 1: and he was transferred to Los Alamos in August of

370
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Speaker 1: nineteen forty four and was around the work of the

371
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Speaker 1: Manhattan Project.

372
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Speaker 2: All of a sudden, Yeah, he was rubbing elbows with Oppenheimer. Yeah,

373
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,399
Speaker 2: so that was August of nineteen forty four when you

374
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 2: started working on the atomic bomb project. A few months later,

375
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,959
Speaker 2: Ruth came to visit David and his wife. Yes, his

376
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,159
Speaker 2: wife Ruth. So by this time when she came to

377
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:39,639
Speaker 2: visit her husband in Albuquerque, she had actually been recruited

378
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:44,199
Speaker 2: as a spy by at least Julius Rosenberg, and she

379
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 2: essentially went to Albuquerque to convince her husband to become

380
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 2: a spy. All these like, both couples were very much

381
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:56,000
Speaker 2: into the Soviet Union, very much into Communism, so they

382
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 2: have very similar views. This wasn't like, didn't take a

383
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 2: lot of persuading from what I understand, And she basically said, hey,

384
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,680
Speaker 2: Julius figured out, probably as Soviet handlers told him that

385
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 2: you're working on as the atomic bomb project. So he

386
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,359
Speaker 2: wants you to tell me everything you know about it,

387
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 2: and then I'm going to take it back to him.

388
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Speaker 2: Then he's going to pass it on to the USSR

389
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Speaker 2: and our glorious leader Joseph Stalin.

390
00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,880
Speaker 1: That's right. January of nineteen forty five, David went back

391
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Speaker 1: to New York on furlough, and just a couple of

392
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 1: days after he got back, Julius came around, knocked on

393
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 1: the door of his apartment and he said, Hey, what

394
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,120
Speaker 1: else you got for me on this atomic bomb? He said,

395
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 1: write it all down, anything you can think of that's useful.

396
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,880
Speaker 1: I'll pick it up tomorrow. His wife, David's wife, Ruth,

397
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 1: was like, his handwriting is terrible. You're not gonna be

398
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 1: able to read this, and Julius said, according to the

399
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: DOJ said, not a problem. Ethel did I mention to

400
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,439
Speaker 1: he as a secretary, she can type like the wind.

401
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: She'll type everything up so it's nice and neat and orderly,

402
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 1: and we'll all be a working family together in this

403
00:21:58,760 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 1: espionage project.

404
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,879
Speaker 2: All attention will dissolve after we start spying together. And

405
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 2: that same furlough visit in January nineteen forty five, David

406
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,199
Speaker 2: and Ruth have dinner with the Rosenbergs and they're actually

407
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 2: introduced to a Soviet operative named Ann Sidorovich and a

408
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 2: really interesting plan is hatched here that ultimately leads to

409
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 2: the downfall of David green Glass. Julia says, hey, Anne

410
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 2: is going to be your contact. Now, she's going to

411
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 2: come visit you in Albuquerque. By the way, Ruth, why

412
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,879
Speaker 2: don't you move to Albuquerque to be with your husband

413
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 2: and you guys can spy more effectively together. But when

414
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 2: Anne comes to visit you, just give her all the

415
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 2: information and she will give it to me. We should

416
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 2: say there were people like Anne, like Harry Gold. Their

417
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 2: entire job was to act as couriers. And the reason

418
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 2: why is because the Soviets rightly assumed that the Feds

419
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 2: were following all of their operatives in the United States,

420
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 2: so they couldn't possibly use an operative to connect two spies.

421
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 2: They had to use a third spy to work as

422
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 2: a courier. That's what Anne was doing. But somebody said,

423
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 2: what if Anne, like is indisposed, what if she, you know,

424
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 2: gets a stomach bug and it's just pooping everywhere, or

425
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 2: what if what if she falls in love and runs

426
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 2: off and gets married and frig it's all about the USSR.

427
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 2: And Julius said, I've got a great idea, a plan

428
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 2: B if you will, and That is where the phrase

429
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 2: plan B was coined.

430
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 1: Are you messing with me? Okay? Yeah, So one small

431
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 1: detail here is that Anne was in Denver, so Ruth

432
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,680
Speaker 1: would get the information from David and Alberquerque, then visit

433
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 1: Anne in Denver to pass this along and if Anne

434
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: had that stomach bug. This was the brilliant plan that

435
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: Julius came up with. He said, hey me that jello

436
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 1: box over there, Raspberry, and they were like, we've already uh,

437
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: we've already had dessert. Why do you want this jello box?

438
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: He ripped the jello box open and took one of

439
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: the cardboard pieces and he ripped that in half, handed

440
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: Ruth one and said, I'm going to give this other

441
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: half to someone with a secret identity that you don't

442
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: know yet. That's our Plan B person. So if you

443
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 1: show up to Denver, Ann is not there and somebody

444
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,719
Speaker 1: shows up with this jello box half that I'm holding

445
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: and showing you, remember it's going to match. You can

446
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: put it together like a locket. Yeah, that will be

447
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: the confirmation of their identity, which is so low fi

448
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: it's actually kind of brilliant.

449
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 2: It is brilliant, And I think that jello box those

450
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 2: two pieces are in a spy museum somewhere. They got it,

451
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: and rightfully so, but it actually came into play because

452
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 2: and did get intosposed in some way that I hadn't

453
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 2: figured out. And Harry Gold, who again one of his

454
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: only job was as serving as a courier, he showed

455
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 2: up in New Mexico on David and Ruth's doorstep and said, hey,

456
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 2: Julius sent me I spy. And they said, you got

457
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 2: the the password, you got the code, you got the

458
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 2: I don't know what would you call an object that

459
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 2: serves as a password past key.

460
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: They probably said, do you have the rip piece of

461
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: jello box?

462
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 2: Right? Or or they said I am the key master?

463
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: Are you the gate keeper?

464
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: Goeser?

465
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 2: Sure, So he said, yes, I am the key master.

466
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: Check this out. And he produced the half of the

467
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: jello box.

468
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: And what a moment.

469
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ruth, I think it was one of the other ruthor.

470
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,959
Speaker 2: David produced the other half and they put it together

471
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 2: and they said, let's let's wrap brother.

472
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: So, uh, he's now the guy David writes up as

473
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: much as he knows at that point, you know, the

474
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: extra stuff about the bomb that he you know, since

475
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: the last meeting, and also like, here's some other people

476
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: that you know, they're always trying to recruit people within

477
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: Los Alamos and elsewhere, and Gold said, great, thanks a lot.

478
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: Here's five hundred bucks. Which is interesting because they, I mean,

479
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: these thing weren't doing it for money, right, Was this

480
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: just a bit of a bonus for being a good soldier?

481
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 2: I think so?

482
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: I don't jump change back then nor now.

483
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 2: No, I mean they were definitely true, true believers in

484
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 2: communism and fighting fascism, so maybe it was just a

485
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: little a lene yap.

486
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: All right, So they gave him five hundred bucks. September

487
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: of nineteen forty five, he went back to New York.

488
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 1: David did on another furlough, and here he provided information

489
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: right to Julius's face, said, here's some more notes. I

490
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: even drew a sketch of the atomic bomb. Julius is like,

491
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: this isn't very good, and he said, no, trust me,

492
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: it looks basically like that. And he claims that ethel

493
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: typed up the notes, and then Julius burned those notes

494
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 1: in a frying pan, gave David two hundred bucks for

495
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 1: his troubles. And that's where we find ourselves.

496
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, when I saw that frying pan detail. I was like, God,

497
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 2: how long did they have to heat those up to

498
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 2: get them to catch fire? And then I realized that

499
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,680
Speaker 2: they were using the frying pan as like basically a fire. Yeah.

500
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 2: I got it now, but it took me a couple

501
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 2: of days.

502
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: That'd be very funny in the movie though. It's just

503
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 1: like just another forty five minutes? What's the flashpoint for

504
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 1: jello boxes?

505
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: Right? So are we at another stopping point?

506
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it.

507
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 2: Okay, we're gonna stop everybody if we just hanched down.

508
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 1: All right, we're back to the contemporaneous present when everyone

509
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: had been arrested, basically right out of the gate. David

510
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: and Ruth, the husband and wife team the Green Glasses,

511
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 1: hired an attorney named O John Rogue or rog or Rogie,

512
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: I don't know you pronounce that r O gge. And

513
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 1: so they had a pretty good attorney, and he said, Hey,

514
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: here's what you gotta do. Let me ask you this question. First,

515
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: how much do you like your sister and her husband?

516
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 1: He said, because what we should really do if you

517
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: want to get out of this is we should blame

518
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: the Rosenbergs. And if you can make a case against them,

519
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: then they're probably going to let you off pretty light.

520
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: And he was right on the money with that line

521
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: of thinking.

522
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the Green glasses said, sure, why not. I

523
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: have a pet theory that if David and Ethel had

524
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: been closer in age, she was seven years older than him,

525
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: you may not have betrayed her quite as easily. But

526
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: seven years is a pretty decent amount of distance between

527
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: you and an older sister, and I think that makes

528
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: the betrayal all the all the easier.

529
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: My sister's six years older, and I would totally sell

530
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: her out.

531
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: There you go, So my pet, my pet theory is correct.

532
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 1: That's right. So they this led to basically a different account.

533
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: Some people may say it was an account that shifted.

534
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: Other people might say, no, David just basically lied about

535
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: Ethel's involvement. Yeah, and you might be wondering, like, well,

536
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: what's the rumpus here? Like they had Julius dead to rights,

537
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: Like why did they need to get Ethel involved? This

538
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: is because they were living in a time of the

539
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: j Edgar Hoover FBI and prosecutors like Roy Kohane who

540
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: basically were like, hey, if you want to get Julius.

541
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: You got to get his wife involved and use her

542
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: as leverage, basically.

543
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the other thing too, is even though they

544
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: had Julius dead to rights, he was not cooperating in

545
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 2: any way, shape or form. He maintained his innocence until

546
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: the very end. And they wanted more spots. They wanted

547
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 2: to flip him and get more and more and more people. Yeah,

548
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 2: so they used Ethel, like you said, as leverage and

549
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: they ended up picking her up. Based on the green

550
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: Glasses testimony. Remember when David green Glass's first first question,

551
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 2: he does not mention Ethyl. He mentions Ruth, his own wife,

552
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: He mentions his brother in law, Julius. He does not

553
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: say Ethel was part of the spy ring. Now, all

554
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 2: of a sudden he is saying she definitely was. And

555
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: then even more damning before the Department of Justice came

556
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: and said like, hey, why did you just touch a

557
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 2: perjury to help our case out. He gave that grand

558
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: jury testament, the same grand jury that Ethel was arrested

559
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: right after, rather unfairly, and he said, point blank, Ethel

560
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 2: was not involved in this.

561
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we know all this is true because in

562
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: two thousand and one, David Grenglass said, Yeah, I lied

563
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: about my sister because I wanted to save my own wife.

564
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, he lied. During the trial, he perjured himself. He

565
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: admitted it. So not only did he perjure himself, he

566
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: perjured himself to implicate his sister, which a lot of

567
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 2: people think she was basically innocent, if not fully innocent.

568
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: So that's a really hard thing to swallow. But we're

569
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: still not done with the d Jane and what they

570
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: did here.

571
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, Julius and Ethel were tried together, along

572
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: with Julius's college classmate that I mentioned at the beginning

573
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: that I just had to put a pin in Morton, Sobell,

574
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: you can take that pen out now. So the three

575
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: of them are being tried. And if David and Ruth

576
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: hired an attorney that had a pretty great idea to

577
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: blame it on the Rosenbergs, they did not hire well

578
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: because they hired Emmanuel manny Block, and I think that

579
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: was Julius's attorney. They had separate attorneys, and Ethel's was

580
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: his father, Alexander, and neither one of these people were

581
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: criminal attorneys at all.

582
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 2: Now, Alexander specialized in facilitating the sale of bakeries I

583
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 2: don't get it. I don't understand why they hired them.

584
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 2: I didn't see I don't know.

585
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: There had to be some connection. I doubt if they

586
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,239
Speaker 1: just yellow page that, you know.

587
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe they were trying to help their careers. I

588
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:53,479
Speaker 2: don't know, but it was.

589
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: Somebody probably knows. I bet someone will let us know.

590
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the prosecution had a bunch of federal prosecutors

591
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: led by Irving Sapaul, who time called the nation's number

592
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: one legal hunter of top communists. Not who you want

593
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: prosecuting you if you are a spy for the Soviets.

594
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: And then the judge was also not the judge you

595
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: wanted to draw. His name was Irvin Kaufman, and he

596
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: was known for hating communists and he used his bench

597
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 2: to essentially punish them as harshly as he possibly could.

598
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: He was the kind of judge who would actually add

599
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: ten years onto whatever sentence the DOJ was asking for

600
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 2: in trials of communist spies. He was that kind of judge,

601
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: and that's who they drew, you know.

602
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: To be funny, as if who let us know about

603
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: the connection to those attorneys was Billy Joel. What if

604
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: he sent us an email said I know this guy's

605
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: then attached you'll find an additional verse that I cooked

606
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: up for you.

607
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: Oh my god, to we didn't.

608
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: Start the fire where I explain about the bakery guy.

609
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he'd be like, ps, what's this with my

610
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 2: worst song craft? Right?

611
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: Oh man, I can't believe I said that out loud. Yeah,

612
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: I have to edit that out, which is just what

613
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 1: I meant to say was there is no bad Billy

614
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: Joel song.

615
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 2: That was perfect. There you go. We'll just clip that

616
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: out and put it over what you said originally.

617
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: No, I'm going to leave it in. I'm gonna stand

618
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: by it. Hey, listen, there's a big hit Billy. If

619
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: you're listening. I love almost everything you ever did, but

620
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: you can't win them all.

621
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: That's a great lesson to learn. Billy Joel really is.

622
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: Okay. So one thing we should point out, getting back

623
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: on track here, about this trial and the prosecution, which

624
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: hated communist. The jury of twelve had one black man,

625
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: one white woman, and no Jewish members on the jury.

626
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: The other were ten white Christian men who all were

627
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: in favor of the death penalty.

628
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, which you know in their defense, like you can't

629
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: be on a capital jury if you are in favor

630
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: of the death penalty, but still it was not the

631
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: kind of position that you would want to find yourself in,

632
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 2: like this is.

633
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: I never thought about that. I guess that's true.

634
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: Huh, yeah, I think we talked about it in the

635
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: jury episode. I'm pretty sure that's that's where I got

636
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 2: it from, which means it could be wrong.

637
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 1: But yeah, well, if you were against a death built,

638
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: you just come up the works. They don't want you

639
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: in there.

640
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so they're in a pickle, I guess

641
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: is what you want to call it. And they're still like,

642
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 2: this is all wrong. We're just we're maintaining our innocence.

643
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: And the prosecution said, oh yeah, we'll sit there while

644
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: we trot out a bunch of witnesses against you. Guys.

645
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 2: They brought Max Elector, who was a classmate with Morton,

646
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 2: Sobel and Julius. Remember Ruth's brother in law, lewis Abel

647
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: and I guess that was from I guess she had

648
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 2: a sister. I didn't see that anywhere. George Bernhardt, who

649
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 2: was Julius's doctor, Harry Gold, the courier for the Soviets,

650
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: and Elizabeth Bentley, who was also a former spy, and

651
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: each one had quite a story to tell.

652
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you're wondering, like why did they get

653
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 1: Julius's doctor in there, it's because he testified that Julius

654
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: had inquired about going to Mexico and like, what inoculations

655
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: do I need to get if I go to Mexico,

656
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: like very suddenly? And the prosecution was like, hey, and

657
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: I just made up for the very suddenly part, But

658
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 1: the prosecution basically took it that way and was like, hey,

659
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: this is evidence he was gonna flee, he was going

660
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: to go to Mexico. Get that doctor in here.

661
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 2: Right, So let's see Elizabeth Bentley, the former spy. She

662
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 2: said I saw him or somebody who looked like him

663
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 2: once talking to Jacob Golos, who was a known Soviet

664
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: operative and the head of the Communist Party of the

665
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: USA in Knickerbocker Village. The KBV no less in nineteen

666
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 2: forty two. It's a little thin. Some of the other

667
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: ones were a little more damning too. Yeah.

668
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: By the way, I know, I sounded very dumb earlier

669
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: when you said KBV right after Knickerbocker Village, and I

670
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: didn't pick up on that. In my defense. I thought

671
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: it would have been kV because knickerbucker is one word.

672
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: That's what can be.

673
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: Yes, but people like to like.

674
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: No, I agree, I'd like three eating everyone. No, I'm

675
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: not a not a one hundred percent more on. I'm

676
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 1: just fifty percent more.

677
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: No one thinks you're a moro on or even a

678
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 2: more on.

679
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: You should read the internet.

680
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 2: Uh, people, there's plenty of people who don't like me either.

681
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: Oh no, people take it personally. They're people that hate us.

682
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: No, I don't. I don't read that stuff.

683
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: Good Again, they can soak their heads.

684
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: That's just that's right, kick sand, touch grass, all those things.

685
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 2: So like so, like I said, touch grass, you haven't

686
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 2: heard that. No? Is that like you they've been knocked down?

687
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: No, I think touch grass is a more modern thing.

688
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: Like when people are just social media fighting, someone will

689
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: say touch grass, like, you know, get off the computer.

690
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: Go outside. Yes, yes, yeah, okay, I think that's what Weirdly,

691
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: I came across that for the first time within the

692
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 2: last couple of weeks, and I promptly forgot it.

693
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know what they should say, smoke grass,

694
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: Quit internet fighting, go smoke some weed.

695
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 2: So what about Max Elektor.

696
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: Uh who was that? Oh he was the former roommate

697
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: I think. And he came out in testimony against him too.

698
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, he said Julius tried to recruit me as

699
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 2: a spy.

700
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, not good.

701
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: Lewis Abel, Ruth's brother in law, said, hey, I got

702
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 2: some money from Ruth and David, And if you know David,

703
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: that is weird. So I asked him where they got it,

704
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 2: and he said Julius gave it to them, and I

705
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 2: suspect for spying, and and Manny Block stood up as

706
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 2: aid objection, and the judge said, overruled. You call me,

707
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:36,439
Speaker 2: you call me lover.

708
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, his dad's over there rolling some biscuits out.

709
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 2: Oh. I'm glad you said that, because I have to

710
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: get this out there. I don't know where it came from,

711
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 2: but it will not leave my head. Sir, mix a

712
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 2: lot buttermilk biscuits song. It's just I don't know that song.

713
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: Parts of it are you don't.

714
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: No and I love Sir mexical, I just don't know.

715
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 2: It's a weird like novelty song that he had like

716
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 2: very early on surely like.

717
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: The rest of his serious work exactly.

718
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 2: It's even more novel than his later stuff.

719
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh man Seattle's own what a legend.

720
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 2: I didn't know he's from Seattle. Yeah.

721
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, because when they did the do you remember the

722
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: Judgment Night movie and that amazing soundtrack.

723
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: I remember the movie.

724
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: Well, the movie wasn't great, but the soundtrack was great

725
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 1: because they paired rock bands with the hip hop artists

726
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: because that was a big thing. Oh yeah, and Sir

727
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: Mix a Lot and mud Honey repaired because they were

728
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: seattleites and their song was awesome.

729
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 2: Nice remember body Count with Iced Tea?

730
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I saw them at the first Lollapalooza.

731
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 2: Nice.

732
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: That was when Iced Tea was still making music. And

733
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: was it like he's on that He's on that cop

734
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: show forever now right?

735
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean this is a rapper who had a

736
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 2: song called cop Killer. Yeah, and he plays a cop,

737
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 2: and apparently he's gone through some like metamorphosis in the

738
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 2: eyes of police and people who support police. I bet

739
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: from hating him to being like, hey, he's actually kind

740
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 2: of a good guy because he plays a cop on TV.

741
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 2: So well, it's really interesting.

742
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 1: No, I remember the time, boy, he was persona non

743
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: grata for law enforcement.

744
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 2: For sure, and Icy didn't care. He's like, just watch,

745
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: I'll be back in the most surprising way you can

746
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 2: possibly imagine.

747
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 1: As literal iced tea.

748
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 2: He's like, well, not that surprising.

749
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: Right, the second most surprising thing? You mean you play

750
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: a cop on a TV show?

751
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 2: He said, yep, bingo, that's what he was naring to say. Bingo.

752
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: Oh man, we're getting really sidetracked. This is a fun one.

753
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: Who knew the Rosenbergs are going to bring this out?

754
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 2: I did not know.

755
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: So it was a three week trial in all, like

756
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: you said, they till the end said they were not guilty.

757
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: The trial concluded in March of nineteen fifty one guilty

758
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: all three defendants sentenced. The third guy, Morton Sobell, to

759
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: thirty years in prison, sentence the Rosenberg's to death, saying

760
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 1: their crime was worse than murder and that their work

761
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 1: caused the communist aggression in Korea, so they were really

762
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: taking the fall for a lot here. There were a

763
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: lot of appeals that were launched by Manny Block and company,

764
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: petitioning the Supreme Court delayed things by a couple of years.

765
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 1: All of those failed, but he did launch a pretty

766
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,399
Speaker 1: successful media campaign that got a lot of people very

767
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: interested in the Rosenberg's sentence.

768
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, he finally got a newspaper to agree to look

769
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: into the case. It was the National Guardian, a very

770
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 2: left wing paper, and they investigated it and produced a

771
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 2: very sympathetic, what I take to be, long form article

772
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 2: on the Rosenberg's case, and that that article created a

773
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: bunch of other press which spread further and further, really

774
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: drummed up public sympathy to the point where they were

775
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 2: holding vigils where a thousand people would show up in

776
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: cities around the world in support of them, and people

777
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: thought like, this is this is not right. Pablo Picasso,

778
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,240
Speaker 2: Albert Einstein, the Pope, they all said like these people

779
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 2: should not be executed, certainly not Ethel should be executed.

780
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 2: And the judges like, I don't, I can't hear you.

781
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 2: He had his fingers in his ears, like la la la.

782
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and their historians to say like this all just

783
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: sort of organically came about because of this press. The DOJ,

784
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: of course, was like no, no, no. The Communist Party

785
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: of the United States and the Communist Party overall launched

786
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: a propaganda campaign on behalf of the Rosenbergs. So you know,

787
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: it's a bit of a he said, she said, or

788
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: they said they said in this case. But here's the

789
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: deal on the execution. You said it was a game

790
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: of chicken early on, and I'm sure people that noticed

791
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 1: that that mentioned were like, what is Josh talking about

792
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: a game of chicken? And this is what you were

793
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: talking about. Was the idea was even Herbert Hoover did

794
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: not want to execute them, and it was all a

795
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: ploy to try up until the last moment. And there

796
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: were supposedly people on the on the walk to the

797
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: electric traier that were like, don't want to change your mind,

798
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: because you don't have to die right now. If you

799
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: want to give up some names.

800
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So the execution was essentially leveraged, just like

801
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 2: they used Ethel. They railroaded Ethyl into a conviction to

802
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 2: use his leverage against Julius to get him to flip

803
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 2: on other spies. They used the death sentence in the

804
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 2: exact same way. And they expected one or both of

805
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 2: them to be like, Okay, yeah, okay, that's fine, it's

806
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,479
Speaker 2: not we got two young kids at home. Let's all

807
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: just cool off. We'll give you some names and some information.

808
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 2: And Ethel Rosenberg and Julius Rosenberg did not do that.

809
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: And in fact, there was the head I think he

810
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 2: was a deputy Attorney general at the time, who said

811
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,760
Speaker 2: Ethel Rosenberg called our bluff. So rather than one party

812
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 2: the DOJ or the Rosenbergs veering off at the last second,

813
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 2: they crashed head on and Ethel Rosenberg and Julius Rosenberg

814
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 2: were put to death, even though essentially no one thought

815
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 2: that was the right thing to do. And that's how

816
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:04,919
Speaker 2: they went down.

817
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean didn't you find too that Hoover

818
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 1: even himself got in touch with a judge and was like, hey, listen,

819
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: we don't want you to install the death penalty here,

820
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: and the judge was had his fingers in his ear.

821
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, the FBI took an official stance that that Ethel

822
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 2: in particular should not be executed. That was the official

823
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 2: stance of the FBI, and it still happened anyway.

824
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:30,959
Speaker 1: It wasn't a good look. I mean, they were worried

825
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: about the optics for sure, of especially because they were

826
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: Jewish and you know, coming off the heels of World

827
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 1: War two and they're like, they got two young kids.

828
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: You cannot execute this woman.

829
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even more so Manny Block, Remember he was

830
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: like an appeal machine. He had one last Hail Mary.

831
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: Appeal that that was on the billboard on the highway.

832
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, with somebody holding a check for a million

833
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 2: dollars that he got for them for their bakery. So

834
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 2: he filed one last appeal and he basically said, dude,

835
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 2: you're going to execute two Jewish people at the beginning

836
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 2: of the Sabbath. Do you know how bad that's going

837
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 2: to upset the Jewish community worldwide? And Judge Kaufman, who

838
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: was Jewish himself, said, you know, I hadn't really thought

839
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 2: of that, And Manny Block's like, great, so let's postpone

840
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 2: this indefinitely, And Judge Coffin said no, no, we're just

841
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 2: going to move it three hours earlier before the Sabbath starts.

842
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. They were put to death at eight pm, and

843
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: that judge was a real sob. They had a funeral

844
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 1: in Brooklyn in June twenty first, nineteen fifty three, where

845
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: ten thousand people reportedly attended. They were buried finally accepted

846
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: after some closer cemetery said no, at the Wellwood Jewish

847
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 1: Cemetery in Long Island, and the boys it's just still

848
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: hard to believe they didn't know that one of them, didn't,

849
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: you know, for the sake of being a parent to

850
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: their kids, didn't recant, But they didn't, And those boys,

851
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 1: Robert and Michael, were adopted by Anne and Abel mirror Pole.

852
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 1: Little interesting side note here. Abel wrote the song Strange Fruit.

853
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 2: Which have you ever heard the Susie and the Banshees

854
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 2: version of that?

855
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: Oh no, but that's great.

856
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really good. That's how I first heard that song.

857
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,439
Speaker 1: Another reference to the first Lallapalooza. Even who knew?

858
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 2: Wow, that's really something.

859
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 1: Wow, I know, right, did not expect that. Billy Joel

860
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: is spinning in his piano stool right now.

861
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 2: He's like, I know, I should have accepted that offer.

862
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 2: I know.

863
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: Michael got a PhD In economics, and Robert Rosenberg became

864
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 1: an attorney.

865
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: And both of them, they've dedicated their lives of trying

866
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 2: to clear their parents' names. Finally, after years and years

867
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 2: and years, they admitted, like, Okay, dad was a spy,

868
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 2: but not mom. Yeah, and you said that. They were

869
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 2: criticized by some people for basically choosing loyalty to Joseph

870
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 2: Stalin over their two children and leaving them behind, and

871
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 2: David Green Glass again who lied to and got his

872
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: sister and brother in law killed. I said they were stupid.

873
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: He said, that was a really stupid thing for them

874
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 2: to do, to not accept some sort of bargain to

875
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 2: take the death penalty off the table. That's his opinion

876
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 2: on the whole thing. Wow, that's what I said too. Yeah,

877
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 2: and oh, I should say real quick, the reason that

878
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: the brothers the sons finally were like, okay, Dad was

879
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 2: a spy was because those Venona tables we talked about earlier.

880
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were.

881
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 2: Finally released starting in the nineties, and it showed quite

882
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 2: clearly that Julius was a very enthusiastic spy for the

883
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 2: Soviet Union and probably Ethel definitely knew about it. But

884
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 2: she may have been involved in recruiting Ruth, and if

885
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 2: she did that, she was definitely a spy. But again,

886
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 2: that doesn't change most people's thoughts that they probably should

887
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 2: not have been executed.

888
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally, because I mean that's a whole differferent argument.

889
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, maybe they were guilty, but you

890
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: should not have put them to death. That's what a

891
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: lot of people seem to think.

892
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, including people from their own spiring didn't

893
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 2: even come close to the death sentence. It was just

894
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 2: specifically leverage that just never got taken away because the

895
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: government wasn't about to be like, okay, you got us,

896
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: all right, we won't kill you.

897
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

898
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's just crazy.

899
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: Boy. Yeah, this is a fun win. And there was

900
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: a lot of jokes. I hope it didn't come across

901
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: as insensitive. I mean that's kind of what we do here,

902
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: so not be insensitive. Try to you know, kind of

903
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:35,760
Speaker 1: make jokes about stuff.

904
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you can't laugh about everything, then what can

905
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 2: you laugh at?

906
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: Nothing?

907
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 2: Exactly? Actually I don't know if that's exactly true, but

908
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 2: still yeah, since Chuck said exactly.

909
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: That's not to examine that way exactly.

910
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 2: It's listener mail time.

911
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: That's right. This is about we heard from a lot

912
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: of our Canadian friends. We love it when Canada points

913
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 1: out something that they know that we don't, and in

914
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 1: this case, it's about Cole's Notes. A great episode about

915
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: the Cliffs Notes guys. The name rings of Bell to

916
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: me probably through American movies and TV, but as a

917
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 1: millennial Canadian, I'm far more familiar with Cole's Notes. Cole

918
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: was a legendary bookstore across Canada, and so every location

919
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 1: had a stand of Cole's Notes booklets focused on books

920
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: and plays covered in the Canadian school curriculum. I even

921
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: remember reading them in school alongside Shakespeare plays to understand

922
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 1: the better. Yes, they were often used to cram before

923
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: a test without reading the material. They're also used as

924
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:38,399
Speaker 1: coal intended chapters. Slash Indigo is the big Canadian book

925
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 1: read tailor now and they bought out the Cole's locations,

926
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: but they still print and sell Cole's Notes today, so

927
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: that guy did alright in the Canadian market. Thanks for

928
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: making me a little smarter each week. And that is

929
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: from Natalie gud orm Son Catormson, great name from Alberta, Canada.

930
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,919
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Natalie, Thanks for making us a little

931
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 2: smarter this week. We appreciate it big time. Yeah. And

932
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 2: if you want to be like Natalie and tell us

933
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 2: something we didn't know. We love that kind of thing.

934
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 2: You can send it off to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio

935
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 2: dot com.

936
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

937
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

938
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,