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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jacob Goldstein. I host a Pushkin podcast called What's

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Speaker 2: Your Problem? And I am here randomly talking to you

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Speaker 2: right now because today is the day before Giving Tuesday.

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Speaker 2: Giving Tuesday, as you may already know, is the Tuesday

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Speaker 2: after Thanksgiving, and it's supposed to be the day we

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Speaker 2: give money to charity. And I'm gonna be honest with you.

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Speaker 2: In my middle aged, somewhat calcified heart, I cringe a

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Speaker 2: little bit every time I hear the phrase giving Tuesday.

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Speaker 2: I think Giving Tuesday is not a real thing. It's

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Speaker 2: not a real day. It's just something somebody made up

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Speaker 2: a few years ago. But that cynicism is not helping anybody.

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Speaker 2: In fact, as it turns out, it isn't even helping me.

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Speaker 2: I know this to be true because over the past

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Speaker 2: decade or so, research has made two things really clear. One,

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Speaker 2: giving money away makes us feel better than we think

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Speaker 2: it will make us feel. In other words, we underestimate

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Speaker 2: the benefit to ourselves of giving money to others. That's

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Speaker 2: thing one think. Two is this, there are charities that

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Speaker 2: are proven, proven by really robust evidence, to do a

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Speaker 2: tremendous amount of good with the money we give them,

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Speaker 2: So Today, I and my colleagues at Pushkin are leaning

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Speaker 2: into Giving Tuesday. We are putting out this special Giving

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Speaker 2: Tuesday show to get into this evidence to really understand

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Speaker 2: why giving money makes us happy, why we don't do

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Speaker 2: it more, and who we should give money to. To

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Speaker 2: start out on the show, I'm going to talk with

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Speaker 2: Lori Santos. Laurie's a Yale psychologist who hosts a Pushkin

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Speaker 2: show called The Happiness Lab, and Laura and I are

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Speaker 2: going to talk about the evidence that shows that giving

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Speaker 2: makes us happy and then the obvious puzzle that follows

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Speaker 2: from that evidence. If giving makes us so happy, why

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Speaker 2: don't we give more? Later on the show, I'll talk

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Speaker 2: with Ellie Hasenfeld. Ellie is the co founder and CEO

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Speaker 2: of GiveWell, and he has spent nearly two decades scouring

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Speaker 2: the world studying the research to try to figure out

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Speaker 2: which charities do the most good with every dollar. And

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Speaker 2: then finally I'll talk with Maria Konikova and Nate Silver.

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Speaker 2: Maria and Nate are a pair of writers who host

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Speaker 2: a Pushkin podcast called Risky Business, but they're also both

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Speaker 2: professional poker players. They are people whose livelihoods depend on

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Speaker 2: making optimal bets. So I'll be talking to them about

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Speaker 2: how they bring that thinking to their charitable giving. Lorie Santos,

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Speaker 2: tell me why I am not giving enough money to charity.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's probably because your mind is leading you astray, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're like a smart person, right. You probably

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Speaker 1: think through what would be the pros and cons of

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Speaker 1: giving a charity. You probably do some simulations in your

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Speaker 1: head about how it would feel for you, and you

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Speaker 1: know how the recipients of that money would feel. And

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Speaker 1: there's just tons of psychological evidence showing that when we

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Speaker 1: do those simulations, we get them really really wrong.

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Speaker 2: Huh. We don't know what makes us happy with giving money,

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Speaker 2: as with everything.

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Speaker 1: As with everything. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, the

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Speaker 1: giving money part shouldn't be surprising.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: I have a whole podcast about how we get happiness

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Speaker 1: wrong all the time. But this one's really insidious because

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Speaker 1: it means that we're like leaving opportunities not just to

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Speaker 1: make ourselves happier kind of on the table, but we're

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Speaker 1: also leaving opportunities to just do good in the world

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Speaker 1: and do good in society on the table too. So

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Speaker 1: in some ways, it's like even sadder Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like people talk about win win, This is like lose lose.

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Speaker 2: It's right, I feel worse and everybody feels worse.

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Speaker 1: And it's another case where we could be building the pie.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: You know, say I have you know, ten bucks sitting

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Speaker 1: around in my pocket, Right, it could spend it in

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Speaker 1: a way that makes me happy, or I could donate

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Speaker 1: it to a good cause. Right, I probably feel better.

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Speaker 1: The research would show spending at ten dollars on a

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Speaker 1: good charity, then I would feel kind of blowing it

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Speaker 1: on myself. But now the money is going to increase

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Speaker 1: happiness in other people, right, presumably somebody who really needed

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Speaker 1: that money. And so we're losing these opportunities to grow

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Speaker 1: the pie. And we really just need to understand this

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Speaker 1: bias better so that we can be happier.

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Speaker 2: So you learn it to the research that shows that

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Speaker 2: giving money away makes us happier. Tell me more about that, Like,

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Speaker 2: what is the academic work that's been done on this subject.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well there's tons of studies now, you know. One

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Speaker 1: of my favorite is a really straightforward one. It comes

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Speaker 1: out of the lab of Elizabeth Dunn and her colleagues

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Speaker 1: at the University of British Columbia, and their method is

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Speaker 1: really straightforward. They walk up to some person on the

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Speaker 1: street and they say, hey, do you want to be

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Speaker 1: in a psych study? I think the person kind of

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Speaker 1: begrudging all he's like, okay, fine, But then it starts

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Speaker 1: out it's an awesome psych study because Liz and her

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Speaker 1: colleagues just hand you twenty bucks and she're like cool.

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Speaker 1: The key, though, is that she tells you how to

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Speaker 1: spend that money. She either says, hey, by the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, do something nice for yourself with this money.

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Speaker 1: Treat yourself, you know, it's something you wouldn't have expected.

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Speaker 1: Or by the end of the day, do something nice

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Speaker 1: with this money for somebody else. Right, you could donate

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Speaker 1: it to charity, you could buy your friend a Lotte, Right,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, but it has to be for somebody else.

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Speaker 1: And then the key is that she calls participants later

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Speaker 1: that day and even in some cases later in the week,

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Speaker 1: and what she finds is that people tend to feel

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Speaker 1: happier when they donate the money to somebody else or

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Speaker 1: do something nice for somebody else with the money, more

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Speaker 1: so than they feel when they spent the equivalent amount

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Speaker 1: of money on themselves, and the study I love because

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Speaker 1: it's just so straightforward. It's just suggests that what we

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Speaker 1: predict will happen, right, And Liz has actually done these

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Speaker 1: studies where she asks a different group of participants, Hey,

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Speaker 1: imagine you were in the study where I walked up

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Speaker 1: to you on the street and gave you twenty bucks?

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Speaker 1: Would you be happier spending that on yourself or somebody else?

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Speaker 1: And like robustly people say, oh, I'd be happier spending

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Speaker 1: on myself, right, because I get something out of the deal.

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Speaker 1: But what she finds is that we're just our prediction

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Speaker 1: is just totally wrong. When we spend on others, we're happier.

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Speaker 2: So I feel like there's a subtlety there in the

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Speaker 2: spending on others group. Right. It is in some ways

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Speaker 2: more intuitive to me that like, whatever, buying lunch for

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Speaker 2: my friend would make me happy because my friend would

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Speaker 2: be so happy and we'd be happy together, and the

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Speaker 2: thing would be happening in this very you know, social,

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Speaker 2: real physical way, Like I get that one. It seems

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Speaker 2: less obvious to me that like giving twenty bucks to

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Speaker 2: a charity helping people in sub Saharan Africa would make

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Speaker 2: me happy, even though clearly intellectually, analytically, I know that

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Speaker 2: the twenty bucks going to sub Saharan Africa is going

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Speaker 2: to do more to increase abstract human happiness than buying

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Speaker 2: lunch for my friend who could have bought lunch for herself. So, like,

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Speaker 2: how does that piece of it work? How do we

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Speaker 2: think about that piece of it?

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Speaker 1: You are onto an important point, which is that there

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Speaker 1: are better and worse ways to give to charity, right

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Speaker 1: in terms of like boosting our own happiness and sort

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Speaker 1: of feeling the impact from that, we are we are

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Speaker 1: a lot happier if we can see the impact of

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Speaker 1: our work, right, But even when we don't see the

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Speaker 1: impact of our work, the act of donating winds up

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Speaker 1: making us feel better than we think. Again, I share

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Speaker 1: the intuition that you have, Jacob, Right, Like, I know

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Speaker 1: these studies. I can kind of quote the stats and

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Speaker 1: I still don't have the intuition that it works. But

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Speaker 1: the results really just suggest that we feel better than

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Speaker 1: we assume we will.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think we get it wrong? I mean,

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Speaker 2: I know we get everything wrong, But why do you

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Speaker 2: think we get this wrong? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean we get everything wrong? Right, Our minds I

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Speaker 1: wish we could just like update like mind two point

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Speaker 1: zero would be so much better. I think there's some

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Speaker 1: there's some reasons that we get this one wrong. One

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Speaker 1: is sort of when we're doing an active kindness, what

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Speaker 1: we focus on as opposed to what the recipient will

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Speaker 1: focus on. Right, I'm sort of focused on whether or

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Speaker 1: not my gift is kind of in some sense competent,

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Speaker 1: Like am I doing the right thing? Am I picking

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Speaker 1: the right charity? Maybe in more local acts of kindness?

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Speaker 1: Am I doing it the right way? Right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't want to be awkward. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to be rude or make this person feel some sense

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Speaker 2: of obligation or reciprocity that might not work for them.

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Speaker 2: Overthinking it, you're saying we're over things.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of the overthinking, that's not what's happening.

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Speaker 1: On the other side. You think of the recipient of

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Speaker 1: a compliment, right, If you know, if someone walks up

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Speaker 1: to you in the streets like, hey, you know love

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Speaker 1: those glasses? They really see you, Jacob, like nicely done.

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Speaker 1: You're not thinking you you mean it and I like it,

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Speaker 1: But you're not thinking of like did they say it right?

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Speaker 1: Did they use the right adjective, was it cool glasses

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Speaker 1: or stylish? You're just like, oh my gosh, I'm surprised,

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Speaker 1: and I have this incredible warm feeling. And so this

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Speaker 1: is part of the disconnect, is that when we're making

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Speaker 1: the decision to do something nice, we're overthinking, we're caught

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Speaker 1: up and if we're doing it right and so on.

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Speaker 1: But the recipients they don't feel any of that. They're

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Speaker 1: just like, oh my gosh, I feel amazing. And so

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Speaker 1: we kind of mispredict what they're paying attention to when

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Speaker 1: they react, and that means their reactions are often a

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Speaker 1: lot more positive than we expect. And then we're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I guess, I guess it was nice to do that

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Speaker 1: kind thing for somebody.

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Speaker 2: It's the broader lesson of like everybody's just thinking about

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Speaker 2: themselves all the time. We're thinking about ourselves as givers

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Speaker 2: and am I the optimal giver? Am I giving in

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Speaker 2: the optimal way? But the recipients aren't thinking about you.

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Speaker 2: They're just thinking about.

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Speaker 1: Them Yeah, And we get so caught up in the

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Speaker 1: awkwardness of it.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: You know, how many compliments have you not given just

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Speaker 1: because you're like, oh, I don't want to do it

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Speaker 1: wrong or seem weird and some of Nick Eppley's a

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Speaker 1: professor at the University of Chicago's data. He finds that

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Speaker 1: about a third of the compliments we think in our heads,

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Speaker 1: we don't actually tell the people around us, right, which

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Speaker 1: when you think compliments usually are received really well and

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Speaker 1: make people's day, it's like a lot of positivity that's

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Speaker 1: just like stuck inside people's heads that we're not giving out.

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Speaker 2: Friction seems like another interesting piece, right, there's like you're

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Speaker 2: in your own head too much. And the other core

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Speaker 2: piece is like, ah, I don't know. I'm just some

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Speaker 2: guy in the world. How do I figure out who

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Speaker 2: to give to? And like, I feel like that one

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Speaker 2: is underrated in the world in general. Right, Like we

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Speaker 2: just we're like water, We just flow to the easiest route.

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Speaker 2: I mean, how do you see that playing out in

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Speaker 2: charity more generally, in giving more generally?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think that friction is a huge thing, right.

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Speaker 1: I Mean a good friend of mine just had a

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Speaker 1: baby with his wife, and my instagraction was like, oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, I should do something nice for them. Maybe

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Speaker 1: I'll get them some food or some onesies or something.

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Speaker 1: But I was like, do I just show up at

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Speaker 1: their house? Like do they have any dietary restrictions that

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Speaker 1: I'm forgetting about?

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Speaker 2: Is this we?

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Speaker 1: Like all again, all this overthinking in my head. But

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Speaker 1: another good friend of ours was like, I'm setting up

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Speaker 1: a meal train. Here's the day you click on this, lin,

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Speaker 1: It's super easy, right, what you're going to you know,

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Speaker 1: give him if it's a lasagn or whatever, here's how

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Speaker 1: you drop it off. She just made it really easy

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Speaker 1: for me to do the nice thing that I was

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Speaker 1: thinking about doing. Anyway, I needed somebody to make that

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Speaker 1: friction go away for me to help. And so I

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Speaker 1: think there's so many cases of this in terms of

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Speaker 1: what we could do to do nice things for others,

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Speaker 1: whether that's with a charitable donation or even just like

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Speaker 1: you know, asking a friend if they need some support,

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Speaker 1: checking in on the people we care about, sharing compliments

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Speaker 1: and so on. The friction kind of gets in the way.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is the idea, is that we

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Speaker 1: can overcome the friction by kind of reducing how much

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Speaker 1: work it is for us to do the nice thing. Right,

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Speaker 1: next thing is just texting a friend or you're already there,

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Speaker 1: you know, like you know in the subway and you

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Speaker 1: compliment somebody who's walking by. Right, these are the kinds

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Speaker 1: of things that we can do quickly, and if we

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Speaker 1: do them enough, then there's a second way that we

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Speaker 1: can reduce friction, which is that it just kind of

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Speaker 1: becomes a habit. Right, if we just get in the

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Speaker 1: habit of doing this over and over again, doing more

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Speaker 1: and more nice things, then all of a sudden, it

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Speaker 1: just becomes easier. Because so much that we know about

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Speaker 1: human psychology, even though we're kind of you know, in

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Speaker 1: the crappy beta version, shows that when we do something

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Speaker 1: over and over again, it just becomes easier to do

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Speaker 1: that same thing. And so one of the giving Tuesday

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Speaker 1: practices that I talk about in my show that Happiness

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Speaker 1: Lab is just hey, practice doing nice things, and it

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Speaker 1: will make it easier. You'll kind of experience less friction

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Speaker 1: over time, just because, like it's just the thing you

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Speaker 1: do when you see somebody you know at work, who

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Speaker 1: you know is wearing something nice or they do something

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Speaker 1: great in a team meeting. You'll just get good at

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Speaker 1: expressing compliments, expressing gratitude. It'll just become second nature.

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Speaker 2: Told you, So, you have this project through your show

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Speaker 2: the happiness lab of giving money away, like built on

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Speaker 2: this premise that we're talking about that not only would

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Speaker 2: recipients be better if people gave more, but the givers

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Speaker 2: themselves would be better if people gave more. You have

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Speaker 2: this project that you do every year for Giving Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: which is coming up. Tell me about that project. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the site that we've worked with is this group

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Speaker 1: called giving multiplier dot org, and their goal is to

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Speaker 1: fight a different kind of thing that can go wrong

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Speaker 1: when we think about donating to charities, which is that

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Speaker 1: many of us really do want to be kind of

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Speaker 1: competent about it. We want our money to go to

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Speaker 1: really good causes in the world, but we also kind

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Speaker 1: of fall prey to the causes that feel really close

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Speaker 1: to my heart, right you know, like I might want

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Speaker 1: to give to my local food bank, which is great,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's good to do that, but that ten

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Speaker 1: bucks I give to my local food bank, it might

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Speaker 1: not have as much impact as you know, giving to

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Speaker 1: somebody maybe an extreme poverty right in like Sub Saharan Africa.

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Speaker 1: You know, I haven't really analyzed as my local food

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Speaker 1: bank doing the best with the money and so on,

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Speaker 1: and so Giving Multiplier dot org has this has this

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Speaker 1: really nice combination of they say, Okay, you really feel

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Speaker 1: compelled to give to your food bank, but what if

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Speaker 1: you gave just part of that ten bucks to one

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Speaker 1: of these so called super effective charities. Right they've done

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Speaker 1: the research. They're like the dollar that you give from

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Speaker 1: that ten bucks to the super effective charity is going

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Speaker 1: to go even further. And so they kind of allow

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Speaker 1: you to make this distinction between your your heart and

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Speaker 1: what you kind of really feel locally, the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing that make you feel good because you can see

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Speaker 1: the impact in your community versus what's doing the best

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Speaker 1: work out there and giving. Multiplier dot Org this year

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Speaker 1: has picked a really great super effective charity which is

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Speaker 1: called Give Directly. This is this group that just gives

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Speaker 1: these unconditional cash transfers, like no strings attached, like cast

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Speaker 1: bonus to people living in extreme poverty.

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Speaker 2: And there's a Happiness Lab. You are l right, shout

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Speaker 2: it out, Shout it from the rooftops. What is it?

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Speaker 1: It's giving Multiplier dot org slash Happiness Lab super easy.

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Speaker 2: Go right now. Phones are open, operators are standing by,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things we've seen is that a

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Speaker 1: lot of our listeners will donate five bucks, three bucks

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Speaker 1: in some cases, but those kinds of donations really add up,

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Speaker 1: and especially if part of your donation is going to

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Speaker 1: one of these super effective charities, like that dollar is

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Speaker 1: going a really long way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll say, And I know, like analyzing super effective

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Speaker 2: charities ends up being about like randomized controlled trials, which

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Speaker 2: is great, like real evidence. But I will say that

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Speaker 2: I actually for a story I did ten years ago

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Speaker 2: or so, I went to Kenya to a village where

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Speaker 2: Give Directly was giving money, and I saw how profound

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Speaker 2: the impact is. I mean, it's people get one thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars at least at that time, no strings attached, and

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Speaker 2: like I talk to a guy who bought a motorcycle

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Speaker 2: so that he could start a motorcycle taxi business. Right,

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Speaker 2: So it's not just like they buy food and then

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Speaker 2: the money runs out. It's people have no capital, they

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Speaker 2: have no money, and so getting a th thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: allows them to make these investments that can change their

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Speaker 2: lives forever. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We saw that last year where we really focused on

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Speaker 1: Give Directly in particular and one community specifically. So we

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Speaker 1: worked with this community, Kebobo in Rwanda, which is a

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Speaker 1: tiny village just on the outside of Kigali, the capital.

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Speaker 1: But they just like all, most of the people in

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Speaker 1: the community live off less than a dollar a day,

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Speaker 1: and just like you're saying, they just lack so many

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Speaker 1: of the basic conveniences that we take for granted. Right,

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Speaker 1: they have to hike two hours to get access to water,

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Speaker 1: and then the water comes back and it's like, are

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Speaker 1: you going to drink some water? A you're going to

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Speaker 1: give your kid a shower? Right, There's no access to

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Speaker 1: schools and these kinds of things. And last year, Happiness

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Speaker 1: Lab listeners were able to generate over one hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars for this community in particular, And so, just like

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Speaker 1: you're saying, give directly, was able to give each person

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Speaker 1: in the community one thousand dollars unconditional cash transfer, and

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Speaker 1: the money went to things like motorbikes like you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: fixing roofs, buying mattresses. Right, most of the people in

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Speaker 1: Kebobo were sleeping on the floor. They just didn't have

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Speaker 1: access to a mattress. But some people did these really

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Speaker 1: creative things that one of the things I didn't expect

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Speaker 1: is that one of the couples that got the cash transfer,

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Speaker 1: bought a pub, which you might think like, oh, they

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Speaker 1: got a pub.

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Speaker 2: A pub it like a bar, like a I love that,

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Speaker 2: But the bar.

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Speaker 1: Like wound up employing people in the community. It became

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Speaker 1: this community hub where people could get together with each

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Speaker 1: other at night, and it's generated more income for them.

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Speaker 1: So now they're turning kind of the side of their

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Speaker 1: pub that they put together into a little mini grocery store,

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Speaker 1: which is one of the first spots that people can

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Speaker 1: buy food in town, so that they don't have to

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Speaker 1: leave town. And so it's like, if you leave it

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Speaker 1: up to people's ingenuity, they kind of come up with

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Speaker 1: these interesting things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's a really simple idea. Like the

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Speaker 2: reason I wanted to do that story all those years

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Speaker 2: ago is like people know what they need, right, Like

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Speaker 2: they know if they need food or a motorcycle or

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Speaker 2: a roof, they just don't have the money, yes, right,

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Speaker 2: So like if you give them the money, they can

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Speaker 2: buy what they need. That's the great thing about money.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is something we forget with gifts in general.

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Speaker 1: I think this comes up in charity, but there's also

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Speaker 1: a work you know, giving Tuesdays sort of the prelude

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Speaker 1: to other holidays and gift giving moments coming up, and

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Speaker 1: it's just something we get wrong all the time. Like

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Speaker 1: we want to be able to come up with the

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Speaker 1: creative gift for somebody, but one of the best ways

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Speaker 1: to figure out the best gift is to just ask

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Speaker 1: people what do you want? And if you buy someone

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Speaker 1: that thing, they're going to be happy because that was

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Speaker 1: what they wanted.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it goes back to the like we're thinking about

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Speaker 2: ourselves right, even when we're giving gifts this notionally you know,

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Speaker 2: other focused thing, we're actually like, oh am I a

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Speaker 2: good gift giver? Am I a good It's just ego.

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Speaker 2: It's just we're just screwing ourselves with our ego as always. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was great to talk with you, Laurie. It was

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Speaker 2: It was truly a delightful conversation. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: This is super Thanks for sharing the love on Giving Tuesday.

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Speaker 2: Laurie Santos is a professor of psychology at Yale and

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Speaker 2: the host of the Happiness Lab. They have a whole

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Speaker 2: episode on the psychology of generosity coming out this week.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back in a minute with my conversation with

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Speaker 2: Ellie Hassenfeld. Who spent nearly two decades scouring the planet

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Speaker 2: to find the most effective ways to spend money on

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Speaker 2: other people. Okay, so Laurie Santos explained convincingly that giving

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Speaker 2: away money makes us feel good. So now the question

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Speaker 2: is who do we give the money to? That is

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Speaker 2: basically the question that Ellie Hassenfeld asked himself almost twenty

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Speaker 2: years ago. It's a question that led him to co

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Speaker 2: found give Well, where he's now the CEO, and it's

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Speaker 2: a question that, in some really interesting ways, as you

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Speaker 2: will hear, has started to change the way charities themselves

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Speaker 2: think about what they do. To start, I asked Ellie

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Speaker 2: how he came to found GiveWell in the first place.

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Speaker 4: Back in two thousand and six, I was a couple

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Speaker 4: of years out of college working at a hedge fund,

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Speaker 4: and a friend, Holding Karnowski, and I wanted to give

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Speaker 4: to charity. And at the time, we were trying to

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Speaker 4: give a few thousand bucks away and we wanted to

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Speaker 4: find charitable organizations that were getting a lot of bang

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Speaker 4: for their buck. And when we went looking online for information,

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Speaker 4: we just couldn't find great information about what charities do

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Speaker 4: and how well it works. We heard a lot about

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Speaker 4: the overhead ratio, how much did they spend on administration

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Speaker 4: versus programs, but nothing that said this is what they're

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Speaker 4: doing and this is how many people they'll help with

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Speaker 4: their programs. We spent months trying to answer this question.

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Speaker 4: The two of us got a little bit obsessed with it,

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Speaker 4: and eventually, after about a year of working on this

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Speaker 4: project left our jobs to start give Well as a

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Speaker 4: full time project. And the idea was to create the

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Speaker 4: resource that we had been looking for as donors well.

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Speaker 2: And there is this interesting sort of broader idea in

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Speaker 2: the charity world, right in the philanthropic world, which is

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Speaker 2: what are they measuring? You Know, you can have a

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Speaker 2: charity that builds schools, and they might tell you how

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Speaker 2: many schools they build, but presumably you're not actually giving

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Speaker 2: money to build the school, right, You're giving money so

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Speaker 2: that children get a better education. And so I'm curious,

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Speaker 2: I mean, as you started to look deeper at the

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Speaker 2: time as you founded give Well, like what was just

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Speaker 2: the basic landscape of measurement within the charity world, Like.

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Speaker 4: It's just really hard to get information about the outcomes

433
00:20:49,036 --> 00:20:51,516
Speaker 4: that we cared about that I think donors ultimately do

434
00:20:51,596 --> 00:20:55,476
Speaker 4: care about and those outcomes would be things like, do

435
00:20:55,676 --> 00:21:00,196
Speaker 4: you save children's lives if you are providing funds for

436
00:21:00,236 --> 00:21:03,116
Speaker 4: health programs? If you're trying to reduce poverty, do you

437
00:21:03,676 --> 00:21:06,476
Speaker 4: increase people's incomes so that they can buy more of

438
00:21:06,556 --> 00:21:08,556
Speaker 4: the kinds of things that they want? And I would

439
00:21:08,556 --> 00:21:13,036
Speaker 4: say that buy and large. This information was not available

440
00:21:13,476 --> 00:21:16,836
Speaker 4: when we were calling up organizations and asking them for information.

441
00:21:17,436 --> 00:21:20,716
Speaker 4: They were often shocked that anyone would be even asking

442
00:21:20,836 --> 00:21:24,636
Speaker 4: a question like this, because it was just in two

443
00:21:24,676 --> 00:21:27,516
Speaker 4: thousand and six, two thousand and seven. It was completely

444
00:21:27,556 --> 00:21:31,156
Speaker 4: unusual that someone would be wondering about like what what

445
00:21:31,236 --> 00:21:33,316
Speaker 4: is the program actually accomplishing? What is the impact that

446
00:21:33,356 --> 00:21:34,156
Speaker 4: it's happening on the world?

447
00:21:34,476 --> 00:21:37,956
Speaker 2: Huh? I mean, is it almost a rude question? Was

448
00:21:37,996 --> 00:21:41,556
Speaker 2: it almost like? Look, we're spending our lives helping these people,

449
00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:45,996
Speaker 2: We're giving them cows, we're building clinics, Like who are you?

450
00:21:45,716 --> 00:21:48,396
Speaker 2: What are you asking about? Why? Where do you come

451
00:21:48,396 --> 00:21:49,636
Speaker 2: off asking these questions?

452
00:21:50,476 --> 00:21:53,716
Speaker 4: I think it's definitely an odd question to ask something

453
00:21:53,756 --> 00:21:56,156
Speaker 4: that I say a lot internally. I could well now

454
00:21:56,236 --> 00:21:59,076
Speaker 4: is that you know, we're the people who react skeptically

455
00:21:59,476 --> 00:22:03,116
Speaker 4: to organizations saying we're just trying to help people around

456
00:22:03,116 --> 00:22:04,996
Speaker 4: the world, and we say, well, how do you know

457
00:22:05,076 --> 00:22:07,556
Speaker 4: and can you prove it? And you know, that's not

458
00:22:07,956 --> 00:22:11,316
Speaker 4: a socially normal thing to do, but I think it's

459
00:22:11,356 --> 00:22:14,556
Speaker 4: necessary because gosh, it's so hard to have an impact

460
00:22:14,596 --> 00:22:16,876
Speaker 4: on people around the world, and asking those questions helps

461
00:22:16,916 --> 00:22:19,436
Speaker 4: get better information so we can shure that funding goes

462
00:22:19,476 --> 00:22:20,116
Speaker 4: to the best place.

463
00:22:20,676 --> 00:22:25,156
Speaker 2: So you do have this short list of pop charities

464
00:22:25,236 --> 00:22:27,116
Speaker 2: that seems kind of like the center of what you

465
00:22:27,196 --> 00:22:29,276
Speaker 2: do in some way. Right, you've looked at all of

466
00:22:29,316 --> 00:22:31,556
Speaker 2: these charities in the world, then you've landed on this

467
00:22:31,716 --> 00:22:35,516
Speaker 2: very small number. Briefly, what are they?

468
00:22:36,076 --> 00:22:38,716
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you know, these top charities account for about

469
00:22:38,756 --> 00:22:41,396
Speaker 4: two thirds of the funds we direct. There are four

470
00:22:41,436 --> 00:22:44,796
Speaker 4: of them. One is the Against Malaria Foundation, which delivers

471
00:22:44,796 --> 00:22:49,756
Speaker 4: malaria nets in Africa. The second one is called Malaria Consortium,

472
00:22:49,796 --> 00:22:53,556
Speaker 4: and we support their Seasonal Malaria Chemo Prevention program. That's

473
00:22:53,556 --> 00:22:57,316
Speaker 4: a preventative malaria program giving medicine to young children. The

474
00:22:57,716 --> 00:22:59,956
Speaker 4: third one, and these are in no particular order, but

475
00:22:59,996 --> 00:23:03,916
Speaker 4: the third one is Helen Keller International's Vitamin A Supplementation program.

476
00:23:04,156 --> 00:23:08,316
Speaker 4: This is a program that gives a small amount of

477
00:23:08,356 --> 00:23:11,356
Speaker 4: vitamin A children under the age of five, and it

478
00:23:11,436 --> 00:23:15,396
Speaker 4: is shown in numerous studies to reduce child mortality. And

479
00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:18,716
Speaker 4: then finally, New Incentives, which is the organization that provides

480
00:23:19,036 --> 00:23:22,796
Speaker 4: conditional cash trans or small cash transfers to encourage immunization.

481
00:23:23,676 --> 00:23:26,756
Speaker 4: You know, the top charities reflect you know, roughly two

482
00:23:26,756 --> 00:23:28,996
Speaker 4: thirds of the funds that we direct, and we see

483
00:23:28,996 --> 00:23:32,036
Speaker 4: them as the you know, really that tried and true.

484
00:23:32,076 --> 00:23:33,436
Speaker 4: Like if you're a donor and you want to have

485
00:23:33,476 --> 00:23:35,876
Speaker 4: a lot of impact and you want to have confidence

486
00:23:36,436 --> 00:23:39,636
Speaker 4: in that impact. These are organizations that we have followed

487
00:23:39,676 --> 00:23:41,516
Speaker 4: for many years and we have a lot of confidence

488
00:23:41,556 --> 00:23:44,316
Speaker 4: in because they are there's a lot of evidence that

489
00:23:44,356 --> 00:23:45,796
Speaker 4: supports their impact.

490
00:23:46,356 --> 00:23:48,996
Speaker 2: So how do you get from sort of generally being

491
00:23:49,036 --> 00:23:54,716
Speaker 2: interested in charity and in you know, research driven outcomes

492
00:23:55,836 --> 00:24:00,196
Speaker 2: to specifically focusing on saving the lives of children in

493
00:24:00,236 --> 00:24:04,236
Speaker 2: the developing world. Yeah, I mean so, at.

494
00:24:04,076 --> 00:24:08,596
Speaker 4: Its core, GiveWell is about finding outstanding programs that we

495
00:24:08,596 --> 00:24:12,676
Speaker 4: can support with the aim of having the most impact

496
00:24:12,796 --> 00:24:15,436
Speaker 4: with the funds that we direct. And when we started,

497
00:24:16,036 --> 00:24:19,356
Speaker 4: we didn't know where we were going to find those programs,

498
00:24:19,636 --> 00:24:24,276
Speaker 4: So we were looking at health programs focused on low

499
00:24:24,316 --> 00:24:28,196
Speaker 4: income countries, but also social programs focused on New York

500
00:24:28,196 --> 00:24:30,996
Speaker 4: City where we lived at the time, so job training programs,

501
00:24:31,076 --> 00:24:35,076
Speaker 4: education programs, et cetera. And after our first year of

502
00:24:35,116 --> 00:24:38,596
Speaker 4: work where we were focused on both US social programs

503
00:24:38,636 --> 00:24:42,476
Speaker 4: and also global programs, we looked at the data and

504
00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:46,756
Speaker 4: just saw how big the difference was in what a

505
00:24:46,836 --> 00:24:50,276
Speaker 4: dollar could accomplish overseas versus at home. And just to

506
00:24:50,276 --> 00:24:54,476
Speaker 4: make it concrete, you know, we estimate roughly, but I

507
00:24:54,516 --> 00:24:57,636
Speaker 4: think it's the right ballpark that five thousand or so

508
00:24:57,716 --> 00:25:00,476
Speaker 4: dollars will avert the death of a young child in

509
00:25:00,476 --> 00:25:04,276
Speaker 4: a low income country. That's about what it costs to

510
00:25:04,836 --> 00:25:08,516
Speaker 4: put a child through school for a couple of years

511
00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:13,356
Speaker 4: in a New York City charter school. And so that

512
00:25:13,556 --> 00:25:18,476
Speaker 4: differential really showed us that the opportunities to use money

513
00:25:18,516 --> 00:25:20,756
Speaker 4: to have a big impactor over on the world where

514
00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:24,276
Speaker 4: we're stronger overseas, and it drove us. It drove us

515
00:25:24,276 --> 00:25:28,516
Speaker 4: to focus our efforts there. We're finding the groups that are,

516
00:25:30,276 --> 00:25:33,116
Speaker 4: I think, like importantly like not sure that their own

517
00:25:33,196 --> 00:25:36,476
Speaker 4: programs are working, and so want to ensure that they're

518
00:25:36,516 --> 00:25:39,356
Speaker 4: gathering the data so that they know where the programs

519
00:25:39,356 --> 00:25:43,716
Speaker 4: are effective, where they're struggling so that they can make

520
00:25:43,876 --> 00:25:46,156
Speaker 4: changes to run those programs more effectively.

521
00:25:46,556 --> 00:25:49,156
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so that's an interesting idea, right, Like

522
00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:53,796
Speaker 2: that idea of the groups themselves being unsure, it requires

523
00:25:53,836 --> 00:26:00,276
Speaker 2: a sense of what is what is the real end point? Right?

524
00:26:00,396 --> 00:26:04,036
Speaker 2: I think quite often and reasonably, like things are clearly

525
00:26:04,476 --> 00:26:08,836
Speaker 2: helpful if you whatever, give someone a cow and you

526
00:26:08,836 --> 00:26:11,596
Speaker 2: know training on how to take care of that cow, like,

527
00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:14,596
Speaker 2: pretty clearly that person is going to be better off

528
00:26:14,636 --> 00:26:16,956
Speaker 2: than if you hadn't done it, And so it might

529
00:26:16,996 --> 00:26:19,916
Speaker 2: not be obvious to say, oh, we need to measure, well,

530
00:26:19,916 --> 00:26:21,556
Speaker 2: how much does it cost to give them the cow?

531
00:26:21,596 --> 00:26:24,116
Speaker 2: How much better off are they? Are there things we

532
00:26:24,116 --> 00:26:26,836
Speaker 2: could change that would be even more helpful, Like most

533
00:26:26,836 --> 00:26:29,476
Speaker 2: people clearly don't do that, right, Most people in their

534
00:26:29,556 --> 00:26:33,116
Speaker 2: jobs in many domains are not constantly measuring and trying

535
00:26:33,156 --> 00:26:33,996
Speaker 2: to optimize.

536
00:26:34,356 --> 00:26:36,316
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I just think the stakes are so

537
00:26:36,396 --> 00:26:39,836
Speaker 4: high that it's just absolutely critical that there is a

538
00:26:39,916 --> 00:26:44,036
Speaker 4: recognition that failure can happen and we have to do

539
00:26:44,076 --> 00:26:47,796
Speaker 4: the best we can. Billions of dollars go to health

540
00:26:47,836 --> 00:26:50,916
Speaker 4: aid every year, and the stakes are quite literally life

541
00:26:50,956 --> 00:26:54,516
Speaker 4: and death. And so therefore the difference between some of

542
00:26:54,876 --> 00:26:59,676
Speaker 4: the best programs that can very roughly say, avert the

543
00:26:59,716 --> 00:27:01,956
Speaker 4: death of a young child for approximately five to ten

544
00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:05,396
Speaker 4: thousand dollars, and then other programs which could have very

545
00:27:05,396 --> 00:27:08,356
Speaker 4: limited impact I think in the worst case, even cause harm.

546
00:27:09,276 --> 00:27:14,596
Speaker 4: Measurement in that feedback loop to say this, we want

547
00:27:14,636 --> 00:27:17,596
Speaker 4: to see whether it's working, we want to see the

548
00:27:17,676 --> 00:27:19,836
Speaker 4: extent to which it's working, and we want to learn

549
00:27:20,316 --> 00:27:21,956
Speaker 4: from what we've done so that we can do better.

550
00:27:21,996 --> 00:27:24,156
Speaker 4: That's true for the organizations we work with. That's true

551
00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:26,196
Speaker 4: for us as an organization. You know, we're trying to

552
00:27:26,196 --> 00:27:29,796
Speaker 4: follow the same project of learning from our own track

553
00:27:29,836 --> 00:27:32,436
Speaker 4: record in history to make better decisions in the future

554
00:27:32,476 --> 00:27:36,116
Speaker 4: and hopefully help people even more. The groups that we

555
00:27:36,156 --> 00:27:38,796
Speaker 4: work with most, and I think the kinds of people

556
00:27:38,836 --> 00:27:41,516
Speaker 4: who are most drawn to what we're doing, whether it's

557
00:27:41,516 --> 00:27:46,236
Speaker 4: donors or practitioners, are people who's I think their interest,

558
00:27:46,396 --> 00:27:48,436
Speaker 4: you know, the idea that they have that we have

559
00:27:48,916 --> 00:27:52,556
Speaker 4: is to try to find the way to use charitable

560
00:27:52,596 --> 00:27:55,796
Speaker 4: dollars to accomplish as much good as possible. And if

561
00:27:55,796 --> 00:27:59,676
Speaker 4: that idea is preventing HIV and young children, then great.

562
00:28:00,036 --> 00:28:03,596
Speaker 4: And if we can do better, if we can distribute

563
00:28:03,676 --> 00:28:07,316
Speaker 4: oral rehydration solution to prevent deaths from diarrhea, or if

564
00:28:07,316 --> 00:28:12,556
Speaker 4: we can encourage a testing and treatment to prevent cases

565
00:28:12,556 --> 00:28:16,436
Speaker 4: of tuberculosis and children. What I ultimately care about. The

566
00:28:16,436 --> 00:28:19,196
Speaker 4: thing that's important to me is just helping children, and

567
00:28:19,396 --> 00:28:22,196
Speaker 4: I'm not drawn to the specific cause or disease as

568
00:28:22,236 --> 00:28:24,236
Speaker 4: much as the outcome, which is trying to enable more

569
00:28:24,236 --> 00:28:26,716
Speaker 4: people to live long, healthy lives.

570
00:28:27,036 --> 00:28:33,316
Speaker 2: I feel like, you know, traditionally philanthropy was largely about

571
00:28:34,276 --> 00:28:38,076
Speaker 2: making donors feel good, and maybe it still is to

572
00:28:38,116 --> 00:28:40,956
Speaker 2: some degree, the nature of human nature being what it is.

573
00:28:41,516 --> 00:28:45,036
Speaker 2: But it seems like the growth of give well and

574
00:28:45,076 --> 00:28:51,356
Speaker 2: of sort of research driven philanthropy more generally has coincided

575
00:28:51,436 --> 00:28:57,236
Speaker 2: with the long boom of Silicon Valley, right, And it

576
00:28:57,316 --> 00:28:59,556
Speaker 2: strikes me that the kind of people who get rich

577
00:28:59,636 --> 00:29:05,996
Speaker 2: in tech are more numerically driven, are more metrics oriented

578
00:29:06,156 --> 00:29:09,596
Speaker 2: perhaps than earlier generations of rich people well, and that

579
00:29:09,596 --> 00:29:12,476
Speaker 2: that might be sort of part of what is going on,

580
00:29:12,596 --> 00:29:14,196
Speaker 2: part of the wind at your back, part of the

581
00:29:14,316 --> 00:29:18,156
Speaker 2: rise of research driven philanthropy. You buy that.

582
00:29:19,036 --> 00:29:21,396
Speaker 4: I think there's a kind of person in tech and

583
00:29:21,756 --> 00:29:25,556
Speaker 4: also in parts of finance. Those are the two sectors

584
00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:29,356
Speaker 4: from which we draw most of our donors who have

585
00:29:30,076 --> 00:29:32,556
Speaker 4: I think the perspective that they take on the world

586
00:29:32,636 --> 00:29:36,396
Speaker 4: as one we know that there's a lot we can

587
00:29:36,476 --> 00:29:39,036
Speaker 4: be wrong about. We know there can be big differences

588
00:29:39,076 --> 00:29:42,516
Speaker 4: in the investments we make or the decisions we make.

589
00:29:42,596 --> 00:29:45,836
Speaker 4: As a company leader, we also know that we can

590
00:29:45,876 --> 00:29:47,556
Speaker 4: be wrong and we want to learn about how to

591
00:29:47,556 --> 00:29:49,396
Speaker 4: do it better. And I do think we see that

592
00:29:49,436 --> 00:29:53,876
Speaker 4: coming out of those industries and it's a big part

593
00:29:53,956 --> 00:29:56,996
Speaker 4: of what has helped us grow to the size that

594
00:29:57,036 --> 00:29:57,596
Speaker 4: we are today.

595
00:29:58,676 --> 00:30:01,036
Speaker 2: So you were mentioning that when you first started out

596
00:30:01,076 --> 00:30:04,596
Speaker 2: and you were calling up charities and saying, what evidence

597
00:30:04,636 --> 00:30:08,076
Speaker 2: do you have that you're actually helping people basically, and

598
00:30:08,076 --> 00:30:11,196
Speaker 2: they would say, how dare you? Who are you? Why

599
00:30:11,196 --> 00:30:13,916
Speaker 2: are you asking me this? I'm spending my life helping people.

600
00:30:15,476 --> 00:30:17,756
Speaker 2: What do they say now when you call them up?

601
00:30:17,756 --> 00:30:18,716
Speaker 2: Has that changed?

602
00:30:19,156 --> 00:30:22,476
Speaker 4: Very practically? It's changed for us because when I was

603
00:30:22,476 --> 00:30:24,676
Speaker 4: calling people up almost twenty years ago, I was offering

604
00:30:24,676 --> 00:30:27,636
Speaker 4: them a thousand bucks and you know, now we have

605
00:30:27,676 --> 00:30:29,796
Speaker 4: a lot of funding to give, and so that does

606
00:30:29,836 --> 00:30:30,836
Speaker 4: make them more responsive.

607
00:30:31,236 --> 00:30:33,876
Speaker 2: Oh, that's interesting. So there's a sort of pull. So basically,

608
00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:36,396
Speaker 2: because you're directing hundreds of millions of dollars a year,

609
00:30:37,716 --> 00:30:40,516
Speaker 2: organizations have an incentive to be more research based.

610
00:30:40,716 --> 00:30:43,876
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean very fundamentally. You know, there's a there's

611
00:30:43,876 --> 00:30:46,716
Speaker 4: a problem so to speak, in the charitable market where

612
00:30:46,756 --> 00:30:50,636
Speaker 4: the person deciding to open their wallet is not the

613
00:30:50,716 --> 00:30:55,156
Speaker 4: person who's ultimately receiving the service. So there's a disconnect

614
00:30:55,276 --> 00:30:59,156
Speaker 4: between the recipient and the giver. Where in the consumer

615
00:30:59,196 --> 00:31:02,316
Speaker 4: market that we're used to, you know, I purchase my

616
00:31:02,436 --> 00:31:04,316
Speaker 4: laptop and then I also use it and see how

617
00:31:04,316 --> 00:31:04,756
Speaker 4: good it is.

618
00:31:04,876 --> 00:31:06,716
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I think, and if it sucks you,

619
00:31:06,716 --> 00:31:08,596
Speaker 2: you that company goes out of years.

620
00:31:08,436 --> 00:31:10,476
Speaker 4: Out of desness. But that's work security if you're great

621
00:31:10,516 --> 00:31:14,716
Speaker 4: at fundraising from donors but terrible at delivering a program

622
00:31:14,796 --> 00:31:16,956
Speaker 4: no one might ever know. And so very I think

623
00:31:17,236 --> 00:31:22,876
Speaker 4: just concretely give well has helped support the literal in

624
00:31:22,916 --> 00:31:26,036
Speaker 4: a very small way, the creation of an incentive to

625
00:31:26,116 --> 00:31:29,836
Speaker 4: operate in a way that is focused on demonstrating impact,

626
00:31:30,076 --> 00:31:33,036
Speaker 4: because the dollars that we have to give, the dollars

627
00:31:33,076 --> 00:31:37,436
Speaker 4: that we have to influence, are going after that evidence

628
00:31:37,596 --> 00:31:40,516
Speaker 4: of strong impact. And I should say, of course, like

629
00:31:40,596 --> 00:31:44,156
Speaker 4: we are just part of a larger and I think

630
00:31:44,236 --> 00:31:48,196
Speaker 4: ever growing ecosystem. You see this in the academics who

631
00:31:48,516 --> 00:31:53,116
Speaker 4: launched the randomized control trial movement in economics, organizations like

632
00:31:53,916 --> 00:31:58,196
Speaker 4: Evidence Action, the Clinton Health Access Initiative, Give Directly. I

633
00:31:58,196 --> 00:32:00,956
Speaker 4: mean this, It's a large and growing group of institutions,

634
00:32:00,996 --> 00:32:03,676
Speaker 4: even beyond the scope of just give Well, that are

635
00:32:03,876 --> 00:32:07,556
Speaker 4: operating in a way that is explicitly aiming to deliver

636
00:32:08,316 --> 00:32:11,916
Speaker 4: great results and demonstrate that those results are coming to fruition.

637
00:32:12,436 --> 00:32:14,636
Speaker 4: And I think that is just a massive change from

638
00:32:14,636 --> 00:32:16,116
Speaker 4: where we were twenty years ago.

639
00:32:16,756 --> 00:32:20,676
Speaker 2: So you mentioned give directly, and as it happens, the

640
00:32:20,676 --> 00:32:23,516
Speaker 2: there's a sort of charitable giving project out of one

641
00:32:23,556 --> 00:32:26,716
Speaker 2: of the shows at Pushkin that gives money to give

642
00:32:26,716 --> 00:32:30,636
Speaker 2: directly basically. And I'm curious about give well sort of

643
00:32:30,676 --> 00:32:33,516
Speaker 2: ongoing evaluation of give directly, Like what do you think

644
00:32:33,556 --> 00:32:35,316
Speaker 2: what do you think of give directly as work in

645
00:32:35,356 --> 00:32:39,356
Speaker 2: a quantitative professional way? Yeah, I think.

646
00:32:39,236 --> 00:32:42,996
Speaker 4: Like, extremely, extremely highly of them. I've personally been a

647
00:32:42,996 --> 00:32:46,236
Speaker 4: gift directly donor for many years, you know, continued to

648
00:32:46,236 --> 00:32:48,876
Speaker 4: give to them last year and will this year because

649
00:32:48,876 --> 00:32:50,876
Speaker 4: I really love what they do. I think it's just

650
00:32:50,876 --> 00:32:54,356
Speaker 4: so critical to say, you know, with some of our giving,

651
00:32:54,636 --> 00:32:58,556
Speaker 4: let's make sure that we're just supporting people to purchase,

652
00:32:58,876 --> 00:32:59,876
Speaker 4: you know, what they most.

653
00:32:59,756 --> 00:33:05,396
Speaker 2: Want still to come. On the show, Ellie talks about

654
00:33:05,436 --> 00:33:07,916
Speaker 2: some of the most surprising things he's seen in his

655
00:33:08,076 --> 00:33:09,476
Speaker 2: nearly two decades.

656
00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:10,156
Speaker 4: In the charity world.

657
00:33:20,276 --> 00:33:23,836
Speaker 2: What do you make of the fact that five thousand

658
00:33:23,916 --> 00:33:26,196
Speaker 2: dollars can save a child's life?

659
00:33:27,196 --> 00:33:30,076
Speaker 4: I think it is just an illustration of on some

660
00:33:30,156 --> 00:33:33,916
Speaker 4: level how unjust our world is, you know, potentially how

661
00:33:35,436 --> 00:33:38,396
Speaker 4: I think all of us, myself included, don't perhaps don't

662
00:33:38,436 --> 00:33:42,156
Speaker 4: really take it seriously as we should, the kind of

663
00:33:42,196 --> 00:33:46,236
Speaker 4: impact that we can have overseas. But fundamentally, you know,

664
00:33:46,276 --> 00:33:49,396
Speaker 4: I think it shows that something is very broken in

665
00:33:50,356 --> 00:33:56,316
Speaker 4: our system for allocating resources globally, because it's very hard

666
00:33:56,316 --> 00:34:00,036
Speaker 4: to accept that it's possible to save someone's life for

667
00:34:00,076 --> 00:34:01,196
Speaker 4: five thousand dollars.

668
00:34:01,596 --> 00:34:05,676
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean with all the money, even with all

669
00:34:05,716 --> 00:34:10,116
Speaker 2: the money that people give way, Like why don't people

670
00:34:10,156 --> 00:34:13,556
Speaker 2: give enough money to buy bed nets for kids so

671
00:34:13,596 --> 00:34:15,956
Speaker 2: they don't get malaria? Right? Like there's some amount of money.

672
00:34:16,156 --> 00:34:20,716
Speaker 2: The more money people give, the less valuable each marginal

673
00:34:20,756 --> 00:34:24,436
Speaker 2: net would be, right, Like, why haven't people given enough

674
00:34:24,476 --> 00:34:28,036
Speaker 2: money to these programs to sort of give away all

675
00:34:28,076 --> 00:34:30,156
Speaker 2: the bed nets that you need to give away, and

676
00:34:30,196 --> 00:34:32,316
Speaker 2: give away all the malaria medicine that you'd need to

677
00:34:32,356 --> 00:34:36,156
Speaker 2: give away to stop kids from dying of malaria, at

678
00:34:36,236 --> 00:34:39,476
Speaker 2: least in these high intensity malaria areas where it's obvious

679
00:34:39,516 --> 00:34:41,676
Speaker 2: that kids are going to die of malaria every year.

680
00:34:43,036 --> 00:34:45,236
Speaker 4: I think, first of all, it's just worth noting how

681
00:34:45,316 --> 00:34:48,236
Speaker 4: much progress we have made globally in the last twenty

682
00:34:48,236 --> 00:34:53,556
Speaker 4: five years. The US government has given huge amounts to

683
00:34:54,436 --> 00:34:57,716
Speaker 4: a program called pepfar focused on HIV, the President's Malaria

684
00:34:57,716 --> 00:35:01,956
Speaker 4: Initiative focused on malaria, and has been instrumental in the

685
00:35:01,956 --> 00:35:05,236
Speaker 4: creation of the Global Fund, which focuses on HTB and malaria,

686
00:35:05,596 --> 00:35:08,396
Speaker 4: and GAVI, which focuses on immanizations. So since the year

687
00:35:08,436 --> 00:35:12,756
Speaker 4: two thousand on a, funding going to global health problems

688
00:35:12,916 --> 00:35:16,796
Speaker 4: has gone up a huge amount. It has plateaued more recently,

689
00:35:16,836 --> 00:35:18,516
Speaker 4: but it's gone up a huge amount, and we see

690
00:35:18,956 --> 00:35:22,716
Speaker 4: a massive reduction in child mortality. So we're doing a

691
00:35:22,716 --> 00:35:25,316
Speaker 4: lot better today than we were in the recent past.

692
00:35:25,916 --> 00:35:28,556
Speaker 4: And then I guess like, fundamentally, I don't know why

693
00:35:29,196 --> 00:35:33,476
Speaker 4: people don't give more or even give more to these charities, right,

694
00:35:33,556 --> 00:35:38,716
Speaker 4: It's it's more a question of direction. It's not even

695
00:35:38,756 --> 00:35:41,436
Speaker 4: why don't people give more money. It's like, if it's

696
00:35:41,516 --> 00:35:45,556
Speaker 4: really that easy to save a kid's life, like we

697
00:35:45,596 --> 00:35:48,876
Speaker 4: want that number to go up, right, like the cheaper

698
00:35:48,916 --> 00:35:49,956
Speaker 4: it is to save a kid's life.

699
00:35:49,956 --> 00:35:51,996
Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of you cuts both ways. Right

700
00:35:52,076 --> 00:35:53,796
Speaker 2: on the one end, it's like, well, great, we know

701
00:35:53,876 --> 00:35:56,716
Speaker 2: a thing that is helpful. But on the other hand, like, well,

702
00:35:56,796 --> 00:35:59,636
Speaker 2: let's buy all the bed bets. So it's not so easy,

703
00:35:59,716 --> 00:36:01,316
Speaker 2: do you know what I'm saying? Uh?

704
00:36:01,356 --> 00:36:04,356
Speaker 4: Completely, And yeah, I think that you know, give Well

705
00:36:04,556 --> 00:36:06,956
Speaker 4: raises about three hundred million dollars a year. A give

706
00:36:06,996 --> 00:36:10,196
Speaker 4: Well that was raising a billion dollars a year would

707
00:36:10,596 --> 00:36:14,156
Speaker 4: the marginal dollars would be much less less cost effective

708
00:36:14,396 --> 00:36:16,036
Speaker 4: because we would have gone much further.

709
00:36:16,636 --> 00:36:18,596
Speaker 2: Weirdly, you want to get to a place where it's

710
00:36:18,676 --> 00:36:21,956
Speaker 2: more expensive to save a child's life, Like the more

711
00:36:21,996 --> 00:36:24,316
Speaker 2: expensive it is, the less inequality there is in the world,

712
00:36:24,356 --> 00:36:25,996
Speaker 2: the more kids' lives we're saving.

713
00:36:26,276 --> 00:36:30,196
Speaker 4: Exactly exactly, you know. And then I think I Give

714
00:36:30,236 --> 00:36:33,636
Speaker 4: Well itself is an institution that has raised much more

715
00:36:33,676 --> 00:36:36,396
Speaker 4: money over the last fifteen years than was raised previously

716
00:36:36,476 --> 00:36:38,836
Speaker 4: and is going and I think it reflects more people giving.

717
00:36:38,996 --> 00:36:41,836
Speaker 4: Why aren't people giving more to these programs? I think

718
00:36:41,916 --> 00:36:49,076
Speaker 4: because the honestly, the suffering and the poverty of say,

719
00:36:49,356 --> 00:36:52,836
Speaker 4: the poorest parts of Sub Saharan Africa is something that

720
00:36:52,876 --> 00:36:56,796
Speaker 4: we are largely blind to in our day to day lives.

721
00:36:56,796 --> 00:37:02,196
Speaker 4: It's not you know, we cover natural disasters when they occur,

722
00:37:02,956 --> 00:37:08,476
Speaker 4: but no one is covering literally the daily catastrophe of

723
00:37:09,236 --> 00:37:12,676
Speaker 4: child deaths due to infectious disease in Sub Saharan Africa.

724
00:37:12,756 --> 00:37:15,916
Speaker 4: You know, very roughly one thousand children die every day

725
00:37:16,356 --> 00:37:19,756
Speaker 4: of malaria. We know how to prevent it, and that's

726
00:37:19,796 --> 00:37:22,956
Speaker 4: not covered because it's well, I guess I don't know

727
00:37:22,996 --> 00:37:24,956
Speaker 4: exactly why. That's a question for you, not for me,

728
00:37:25,116 --> 00:37:27,316
Speaker 4: but it's not covered. And I think because of that,

729
00:37:27,796 --> 00:37:31,236
Speaker 4: on some level, we're able to live as if it's

730
00:37:31,236 --> 00:37:34,116
Speaker 4: not really there in that motivating force to get people

731
00:37:34,156 --> 00:37:37,196
Speaker 4: to see it and then act, isn't isn't happening.

732
00:37:38,156 --> 00:37:45,436
Speaker 2: You've been doing this now for fifteen years ish. If

733
00:37:45,476 --> 00:37:50,916
Speaker 2: you go back to when you started, what's been surprising

734
00:37:50,956 --> 00:37:52,436
Speaker 2: to you? What has happened in a way you would

735
00:37:52,436 --> 00:37:53,156
Speaker 2: not have expected.

736
00:37:54,236 --> 00:37:59,076
Speaker 4: I was really surprised when we started at how strange

737
00:37:59,716 --> 00:38:02,956
Speaker 4: our questions seem to the organizations that we were going to,

738
00:38:03,596 --> 00:38:09,236
Speaker 4: the question of how effective are your programs, how I'm

739
00:38:09,236 --> 00:38:12,076
Speaker 4: sure you accomplishing and how do you know seems like

740
00:38:12,116 --> 00:38:17,196
Speaker 4: a really an obvious question. Says are really surprising to me,

741
00:38:17,436 --> 00:38:20,196
Speaker 4: how much we've grown. When we started this, I think

742
00:38:20,236 --> 00:38:25,356
Speaker 4: we thought that we were just we were a couple

743
00:38:25,356 --> 00:38:28,956
Speaker 4: of guys who had this idiosyncratic interest in an approach

744
00:38:28,996 --> 00:38:31,956
Speaker 4: to charitable giving. And when we talked to people who

745
00:38:31,996 --> 00:38:36,876
Speaker 4: worked in philanthropy, they they reacted like we were nuts,

746
00:38:36,916 --> 00:38:39,116
Speaker 4: that no one would ever be into this. This is

747
00:38:39,116 --> 00:38:42,836
Speaker 4: not what donors go to galas, and donors like stories

748
00:38:42,876 --> 00:38:47,556
Speaker 4: and their names on buildings, and wow, it's shocking. You know,

749
00:38:47,596 --> 00:38:50,276
Speaker 4: people are people are normal. People are just giving three

750
00:38:50,316 --> 00:38:53,316
Speaker 4: hundred million dollars a year to help people around the world,

751
00:38:53,396 --> 00:38:56,356
Speaker 4: and they're buying large anonymous they're not getting their names

752
00:38:56,356 --> 00:38:59,556
Speaker 4: on buildings, and they're just you know, following along, trying

753
00:38:59,556 --> 00:39:00,916
Speaker 4: to make as big a difference as they can in

754
00:39:00,956 --> 00:39:04,076
Speaker 4: people's lives. So they'll never meet and you know, on

755
00:39:04,076 --> 00:39:06,676
Speaker 4: some level that maybe that makes sense, but that's also

756
00:39:06,716 --> 00:39:07,436
Speaker 4: really surprising.

757
00:39:08,156 --> 00:39:11,356
Speaker 2: It seems like the happy surprised their happy surprise. I

758
00:39:11,396 --> 00:39:13,356
Speaker 2: appreciate your time very much. It was great to talk

759
00:39:13,396 --> 00:39:15,476
Speaker 2: with you. Yeah, that was great to be here. Thanks

760
00:39:15,476 --> 00:39:20,076
Speaker 2: so much. Jacob Ellie Hasenfeld is the co founder and

761
00:39:20,196 --> 00:39:25,156
Speaker 2: CEO of gif Well. Last conversation on the show is

762
00:39:25,196 --> 00:39:29,276
Speaker 2: with Nate Silver and Maria Konikova. Nate is a statistician,

763
00:39:29,716 --> 00:39:33,716
Speaker 2: Maria's a psychologist. They are both writers and together they

764
00:39:33,796 --> 00:39:37,716
Speaker 2: host a podcast called Risky Business. They are also both

765
00:39:37,876 --> 00:39:41,196
Speaker 2: professional poker players, and that's really why I wanted to

766
00:39:41,236 --> 00:39:44,076
Speaker 2: talk to them about charitable giving. One of the things

767
00:39:44,116 --> 00:39:46,956
Speaker 2: they do on their show is they talk about bringing

768
00:39:46,956 --> 00:39:50,236
Speaker 2: a poker mindset to the decision making of everyday life,

769
00:39:50,596 --> 00:39:53,156
Speaker 2: and so I wanted to hear from them how professional

770
00:39:53,156 --> 00:39:58,756
Speaker 2: gamblers think about giving money away. So, like, the core

771
00:39:58,836 --> 00:40:02,156
Speaker 2: idea of the show is making better decisions using this

772
00:40:02,316 --> 00:40:08,996
Speaker 2: expected value framework right in like one sentence, what's expected value?

773
00:40:09,196 --> 00:40:14,756
Speaker 3: Dec did value is the net benefit you expect to

774
00:40:14,756 --> 00:40:20,556
Speaker 3: get averaged over all the uncertain outcomes. Now, I guess

775
00:40:20,556 --> 00:40:24,196
Speaker 3: with charitable giving, maybe it's more deterministic. Where we know,

776
00:40:24,356 --> 00:40:27,356
Speaker 3: for example, that mosquito nets in Africa have a high

777
00:40:27,436 --> 00:40:30,476
Speaker 3: return on investment. They say lives and prevent male area

778
00:40:31,156 --> 00:40:32,836
Speaker 3: at a relative of low costs. It's not like a

779
00:40:32,916 --> 00:40:37,156
Speaker 3: random element there exactly, although there are always some implementation issues,

780
00:40:38,156 --> 00:40:39,996
Speaker 3: but really it's a framework about utility.

781
00:40:40,356 --> 00:40:42,396
Speaker 5: And I was just to jump in a little bit

782
00:40:42,436 --> 00:40:46,876
Speaker 5: to say that, you know, we have the economic definition

783
00:40:46,916 --> 00:40:50,156
Speaker 5: of expected value, and then when you look at behavioral

784
00:40:50,236 --> 00:40:53,276
Speaker 5: economics and the way that people actually make decisions, you

785
00:40:53,356 --> 00:40:56,796
Speaker 5: realize that there's a lot of psychology involved as well,

786
00:40:57,076 --> 00:41:01,596
Speaker 5: and so calculating expected value is not as straightforward as

787
00:41:01,676 --> 00:41:05,236
Speaker 5: just kind of doing these dollar calculations, because you know,

788
00:41:05,276 --> 00:41:08,116
Speaker 5: how do you put a dollar amount on how good

789
00:41:08,116 --> 00:41:10,676
Speaker 5: you feel after a decision or how bad you feel,

790
00:41:10,996 --> 00:41:13,476
Speaker 5: or the regret that you might feel when you don't

791
00:41:13,516 --> 00:41:16,156
Speaker 5: take a decision. And when we're looking at kind of

792
00:41:16,196 --> 00:41:19,356
Speaker 5: the broader picture of expected value, you do have to

793
00:41:19,396 --> 00:41:21,916
Speaker 5: try to quantify that a little bit and try to

794
00:41:21,916 --> 00:41:24,716
Speaker 5: account for all of those different psychological factors that come

795
00:41:24,756 --> 00:41:25,636
Speaker 5: into play as well.

796
00:41:26,236 --> 00:41:28,316
Speaker 2: One of my favorite things about your show is when

797
00:41:28,316 --> 00:41:32,396
Speaker 2: you talk about the culture of professional poker players. Basically,

798
00:41:32,396 --> 00:41:35,716
Speaker 2: you're both professional poker players and you live in this

799
00:41:35,876 --> 00:41:40,756
Speaker 2: universe where people treat money really differently, right, And there

800
00:41:40,756 --> 00:41:42,996
Speaker 2: are these two terms that come up a lot on

801
00:41:43,036 --> 00:41:48,556
Speaker 2: the show two kinds of people, knits and dgens. What's

802
00:41:48,596 --> 00:41:50,756
Speaker 2: a knit? I'll leave this one to unit.

803
00:41:52,756 --> 00:41:55,676
Speaker 3: A knit is basically George Costanzo. Right, It's like a

804
00:41:56,396 --> 00:42:02,796
Speaker 3: neurotic risk of verse cheap, but more someone who is

805
00:42:02,836 --> 00:42:07,156
Speaker 3: so neurotic that they aren't taking plus ev bets.

806
00:42:07,276 --> 00:42:07,476
Speaker 2: Right.

807
00:42:07,556 --> 00:42:09,796
Speaker 3: They're two conservative for their your own good when it

808
00:42:09,836 --> 00:42:14,956
Speaker 3: comes to playing poker hands, for example, and have a

809
00:42:14,956 --> 00:42:17,996
Speaker 3: low openness to experience perhaps and can be annoying.

810
00:42:18,596 --> 00:42:22,316
Speaker 2: They're the ones who want to itemize the bill. Uh

811
00:42:22,716 --> 00:42:25,356
Speaker 2: when wait, I didn't eat the app. I shouldn't have

812
00:42:25,396 --> 00:42:28,916
Speaker 2: to pay for one third of the app, that's the yeah.

813
00:42:29,036 --> 00:42:32,396
Speaker 3: Whereas a djen is someone who likes to gamble, is

814
00:42:32,596 --> 00:42:36,476
Speaker 3: risk tolerant maybe to their own detriment, is freewheeling with

815
00:42:36,636 --> 00:42:39,676
Speaker 3: money and splashes around.

816
00:42:39,996 --> 00:42:42,916
Speaker 2: Yes, and d gen is short for degenerate gambler, but

817
00:42:43,116 --> 00:42:46,556
Speaker 2: in a loving way. Right, that's my Fausually, yeah, So

818
00:42:47,156 --> 00:42:53,516
Speaker 2: in your experience, who is more generous a degenerate knit djen? Absolutely? Oh? Yeah,

819
00:42:53,556 --> 00:42:57,076
Speaker 2: for sure. I don't think it's even close. You guys

820
00:42:57,116 --> 00:42:57,876
Speaker 2: give to charity.

821
00:42:59,916 --> 00:43:02,836
Speaker 5: I give to charitable causes that I believe in. So,

822
00:43:03,076 --> 00:43:07,516
Speaker 5: for instance, I gave a lot of money to Ukraine

823
00:43:07,956 --> 00:43:12,636
Speaker 5: when Russia invaded, and that is how kind of I

824
00:43:12,676 --> 00:43:16,196
Speaker 5: calculate my charitable giving. I understand that mosquito nets in

825
00:43:16,236 --> 00:43:19,036
Speaker 5: Africa are incredibly important. I have not given to malaria

826
00:43:19,116 --> 00:43:21,956
Speaker 5: because that is not something that you know, I feel

827
00:43:21,996 --> 00:43:24,876
Speaker 5: strongly about. There are other people feel strongly about that.

828
00:43:24,956 --> 00:43:27,116
Speaker 5: So for me part of it. You know, I have

829
00:43:27,196 --> 00:43:30,516
Speaker 5: given to educational causes. You know, I give to things

830
00:43:30,596 --> 00:43:33,436
Speaker 5: that I have a connection with and that I feel

831
00:43:33,556 --> 00:43:34,876
Speaker 5: also are underfunded.

832
00:43:35,396 --> 00:43:38,076
Speaker 2: Mari, you mentioned given to Ukraine, and I mean I

833
00:43:38,116 --> 00:43:40,516
Speaker 2: know you a little bit. I know your your life

834
00:43:40,556 --> 00:43:43,156
Speaker 2: story seems connected to that. Right, tell me about your

835
00:43:43,156 --> 00:43:46,756
Speaker 2: connection to helping Ukraine defend itself against Russia. Yeah.

836
00:43:46,836 --> 00:43:50,836
Speaker 5: So my dad is Ukrainian and my mom is from Moscow,

837
00:43:51,236 --> 00:43:54,556
Speaker 5: and I was born in Moscow and then came to

838
00:43:54,596 --> 00:43:57,716
Speaker 5: the United States when I was four years old and

839
00:43:57,956 --> 00:44:03,916
Speaker 5: have always been very anti the autocratic tendencies of Russia,

840
00:44:04,796 --> 00:44:08,396
Speaker 5: very anti Putin. And I think you know, when Putin

841
00:44:08,436 --> 00:44:11,956
Speaker 5: invented invaded Ukraine, to me, that was a no brainer.

842
00:44:12,196 --> 00:44:14,036
Speaker 5: I think at this point Ukraine is one of the

843
00:44:14,036 --> 00:44:18,356
Speaker 5: only things standing between US and the Third World War. Basically,

844
00:44:18,396 --> 00:44:20,836
Speaker 5: the fact that they're able to resist him. So for

845
00:44:20,916 --> 00:44:25,636
Speaker 5: me it was incredibly personal. And so I'm all in

846
00:44:25,876 --> 00:44:26,956
Speaker 5: on the Zelenski camp.

847
00:44:27,876 --> 00:44:32,796
Speaker 3: Nate Silver, do you give money away? I'm having to reevaluate.

848
00:44:33,556 --> 00:44:34,836
Speaker 3: I mean the short answers I haven't.

849
00:44:34,996 --> 00:44:37,716
Speaker 2: Uh huh. Does either saying on a show that you

850
00:44:37,796 --> 00:44:40,676
Speaker 2: haven't given money away or hearing Maria talk about giving

851
00:44:40,716 --> 00:44:44,036
Speaker 2: money away like honestly does it you think it makes

852
00:44:44,116 --> 00:44:45,996
Speaker 2: it any more likely that you'll give money away? You

853
00:44:46,036 --> 00:44:47,316
Speaker 2: think it's going to have any effect on you.

854
00:44:47,756 --> 00:44:51,356
Speaker 3: I'm generally not a person who is governed by guilt.

855
00:44:51,596 --> 00:44:53,516
Speaker 2: Ah, that's I mean, I think I should.

856
00:44:54,196 --> 00:44:57,956
Speaker 3: There's like a lot of long term financial planning that

857
00:44:57,956 --> 00:45:00,356
Speaker 3: gets put off. I mean, these are discussions that you know,

858
00:45:00,396 --> 00:45:04,756
Speaker 3: my household we've had and so we're we're aware of

859
00:45:04,796 --> 00:45:07,236
Speaker 3: this question and what we want to do with our

860
00:45:07,276 --> 00:45:09,596
Speaker 3: money in the long term, member thinking about it actively,

861
00:45:09,716 --> 00:45:15,316
Speaker 3: but kind of things get short circuited during I mean, look, clearly,

862
00:45:15,396 --> 00:45:17,356
Speaker 3: I think that you know, in some abstract sense, you

863
00:45:17,356 --> 00:45:19,516
Speaker 3: are being selfish if you're not. If you have a

864
00:45:19,556 --> 00:45:21,676
Speaker 3: comfortable life, then you are being selfish to not give.

865
00:45:24,116 --> 00:45:25,516
Speaker 3: But it's easy to make excuses.

866
00:45:25,916 --> 00:45:29,436
Speaker 2: I appreciate your honesty. So Nate, does that make you

867
00:45:29,476 --> 00:45:32,196
Speaker 2: a knit and Maria the DJ in I never would

868
00:45:32,196 --> 00:45:34,956
Speaker 2: have guessed, well, but I am.

869
00:45:35,156 --> 00:45:37,396
Speaker 3: I think Maria is also I am generous in those

870
00:45:37,436 --> 00:45:40,236
Speaker 3: other ways yea, and things like tips with things like

871
00:45:40,596 --> 00:45:44,436
Speaker 3: you know, picking up checks, even a fairly expensive meals

872
00:45:44,516 --> 00:45:47,196
Speaker 3: or something for my friends. And so maybe psychologically that

873
00:45:47,236 --> 00:45:50,796
Speaker 3: feels more satisfying than the abstract charitable giving.

874
00:45:51,076 --> 00:45:53,716
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean that is an interesting tension, right, Like

875
00:45:53,796 --> 00:45:56,236
Speaker 2: it feels better to buy lunch for your friend than

876
00:45:56,316 --> 00:45:59,036
Speaker 2: to send the money off to somebody thousands of miles away,

877
00:45:59,116 --> 00:46:03,116
Speaker 2: even though obviously the marginal benefit of that whatever one

878
00:46:03,156 --> 00:46:06,636
Speaker 2: hundred bucks, fifty bucks, any any bucks, is clearly greater

879
00:46:06,716 --> 00:46:09,836
Speaker 2: if you send it off thousand. Jacob in New Yorkers

880
00:46:11,156 --> 00:46:13,076
Speaker 2: be great. I was trying to be I was trying

881
00:46:13,076 --> 00:46:15,156
Speaker 2: to be a man of the people day and when

882
00:46:15,196 --> 00:46:17,756
Speaker 2: are we getting dinner? I totally agree.

883
00:46:17,796 --> 00:46:20,956
Speaker 5: And yeah, and I also just want to want to

884
00:46:20,956 --> 00:46:23,836
Speaker 5: add a little bit to say that I think that

885
00:46:24,516 --> 00:46:28,156
Speaker 5: in this particular case, like role models really do matter

886
00:46:28,196 --> 00:46:33,756
Speaker 5: when it comes to charitable giving tendencies, so psychologically speaking,

887
00:46:34,956 --> 00:46:37,596
Speaker 5: and one of the things that has made me actually

888
00:46:37,956 --> 00:46:40,596
Speaker 5: kind of give more than I have in the past

889
00:46:40,676 --> 00:46:43,156
Speaker 5: is my parents, who don't have a lot of money

890
00:46:43,956 --> 00:46:47,716
Speaker 5: and you know, our single income because my mom uh

891
00:46:48,476 --> 00:46:54,476
Speaker 5: no longer works, and they give a recurring donation every

892
00:46:54,516 --> 00:46:58,156
Speaker 5: single month to causes that they believe strongly in, including Ukraine.

893
00:46:58,756 --> 00:47:00,156
Speaker 5: And when I think about it, I'm like, you can't

894
00:47:00,156 --> 00:47:02,676
Speaker 5: afford to do this, and yet they do it, and

895
00:47:02,956 --> 00:47:06,276
Speaker 5: that you know it I won't say guilts me into

896
00:47:06,476 --> 00:47:08,996
Speaker 5: but like it may, it makes me realize that, like

897
00:47:09,436 --> 00:47:12,236
Speaker 5: you know, it is important when you are donating to

898
00:47:12,356 --> 00:47:14,916
Speaker 5: causes where it actually makes a difference. Nate and I

899
00:47:15,036 --> 00:47:19,676
Speaker 5: talked a lot on our podcast about kind of donating

900
00:47:19,756 --> 00:47:23,716
Speaker 5: to political campaigns, and you know, don't donate to the

901
00:47:23,756 --> 00:47:26,756
Speaker 5: presidential campaign because they don't need the money. But I,

902
00:47:27,076 --> 00:47:29,516
Speaker 5: you know, I think that that's kind of that's what

903
00:47:29,596 --> 00:47:32,156
Speaker 5: we're talking about at the end, Where do you donate

904
00:47:32,316 --> 00:47:34,796
Speaker 5: in a way that your money actually makes an impact

905
00:47:34,916 --> 00:47:36,756
Speaker 5: right now? And it doesn't have to be millions of

906
00:47:36,836 --> 00:47:38,916
Speaker 5: dollars right you can leave. I hope I have millions

907
00:47:38,916 --> 00:47:41,836
Speaker 5: to leave at the end of my life to good causes,

908
00:47:42,116 --> 00:47:45,076
Speaker 5: but you know, there are causes where even a few

909
00:47:45,156 --> 00:47:48,436
Speaker 5: hundred dollars actually can make a huge difference, but.

910
00:47:48,556 --> 00:47:51,396
Speaker 3: I guess because there probably is some pleasure from it. Right,

911
00:47:51,436 --> 00:47:53,916
Speaker 3: you kind of recognize the efemeral nature of money, and

912
00:47:53,916 --> 00:47:55,396
Speaker 3: it's kind of more an emotional reaction.

913
00:47:55,516 --> 00:47:56,356
Speaker 2: And then when.

914
00:47:58,116 --> 00:47:59,596
Speaker 3: I mean thinking about charity, it's kind of the more

915
00:47:59,676 --> 00:48:01,916
Speaker 3: rational part of your brain.

916
00:48:01,996 --> 00:48:02,156
Speaker 2: Right.

917
00:48:02,236 --> 00:48:04,436
Speaker 3: You can make excuses along lines of, well, maybe just

918
00:48:04,436 --> 00:48:05,476
Speaker 3: give it away at the end of my life, and

919
00:48:05,476 --> 00:48:08,556
Speaker 3: I pay a lot of taxes, and you know, figuring

920
00:48:08,596 --> 00:48:11,396
Speaker 3: out where to give is a discussion have with your partner,

921
00:48:11,476 --> 00:48:14,036
Speaker 3: and that can get you know, we have disagreements about that,

922
00:48:14,076 --> 00:48:16,556
Speaker 3: and so it's different than the kind of, oh, it's

923
00:48:16,636 --> 00:48:18,836
Speaker 3: gett a nice bottle of wine and I'll pick I'll

924
00:48:18,836 --> 00:48:21,076
Speaker 3: pick up dinner tonight because I know you had a

925
00:48:21,156 --> 00:48:22,716
Speaker 3: rough tournament series or something like that.

926
00:48:22,956 --> 00:48:27,996
Speaker 2: Huh. I never thought of you as such an emotional guy.

927
00:48:28,316 --> 00:48:31,836
Speaker 2: So so I'm curious in particular, So this this show

928
00:48:32,316 --> 00:48:35,876
Speaker 2: is about giving away money fundamentally, and you know, we

929
00:48:35,916 --> 00:48:38,996
Speaker 2: can talk about, you know, maximizing ev and what charities

930
00:48:38,996 --> 00:48:41,556
Speaker 2: are good, but there's also just this more general idea

931
00:48:41,556 --> 00:48:44,836
Speaker 2: of pro social behavior. Spending money on your friends is

932
00:48:44,956 --> 00:48:48,156
Speaker 2: part of this, and so I'm curious, what's your favorite

933
00:48:48,236 --> 00:48:50,956
Speaker 2: Djen dropping a bunch of money on their friends on

934
00:48:51,076 --> 00:48:52,956
Speaker 2: charity on anything story.

935
00:48:53,196 --> 00:48:56,316
Speaker 5: Yeah, well this isn't this isn't d Jenny, But I

936
00:48:56,356 --> 00:49:00,436
Speaker 5: think it's something that is quite important. The poker community

937
00:49:00,516 --> 00:49:03,876
Speaker 5: actually does give a shit ton of money to charity.

938
00:49:04,036 --> 00:49:06,796
Speaker 5: You know, those aren't the fun D Jenny stories, But

939
00:49:06,796 --> 00:49:09,476
Speaker 5: but that's I think, you know, I think it's important

940
00:49:09,476 --> 00:49:12,756
Speaker 5: to note that poker players actually are on top of this,

941
00:49:12,916 --> 00:49:15,356
Speaker 5: and there are a lot of poker players giving millions

942
00:49:15,596 --> 00:49:17,916
Speaker 5: to charity and matching charitable donations.

943
00:49:19,036 --> 00:49:20,836
Speaker 2: Thanks you, guys, it was a delight to talk to you.

944
00:49:21,316 --> 00:49:26,756
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you. So just before we in the

945
00:49:26,756 --> 00:49:29,116
Speaker 2: show here, I want to just mention one last thing.

946
00:49:29,836 --> 00:49:33,196
Speaker 2: There was a moment in that last conversation when Nate

947
00:49:33,356 --> 00:49:36,676
Speaker 2: was talking about the reasons he hasn't given money. You

948
00:49:36,676 --> 00:49:39,316
Speaker 2: know how giving money to charity has tied up with

949
00:49:39,356 --> 00:49:43,036
Speaker 2: all these other household financial planning decisions, et cetera, et cetera.

950
00:49:43,596 --> 00:49:45,436
Speaker 2: And I thought back to that thing that Lori Santo

951
00:49:45,596 --> 00:49:48,756
Speaker 2: said at the beginning of the show about friction. You

952
00:49:48,796 --> 00:49:51,916
Speaker 2: know how friction and not knowing how to give or

953
00:49:51,956 --> 00:49:54,516
Speaker 2: who to give to winds up being this huge barrier.

954
00:49:54,996 --> 00:49:57,516
Speaker 2: And I thought about how Ellie Hassenfeld has spent all

955
00:49:57,516 --> 00:50:00,236
Speaker 2: this time trying to find charities that are very clearly

956
00:50:00,316 --> 00:50:03,156
Speaker 2: doing good that you can just give money to and

957
00:50:03,316 --> 00:50:05,996
Speaker 2: feel good about. So to close out the show today

958
00:50:06,716 --> 00:50:08,516
Speaker 2: and to fight against friction in my own life, I'm

959
00:50:08,516 --> 00:50:10,836
Speaker 2: going to go right now to that website that Laurie

960
00:50:10,916 --> 00:50:18,516
Speaker 2: was talking about giving multiplier dot org slash Happiness Lab,

961
00:50:19,796 --> 00:50:22,356
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna give fifty bucks. Is it the perfect

962
00:50:22,356 --> 00:50:24,876
Speaker 2: amount of money? I don't know. I'm just gonna do

963
00:50:24,956 --> 00:50:34,756
Speaker 2: it right now. Thanks very much to Nate Silver and

964
00:50:34,836 --> 00:50:39,036
Speaker 2: Maria Konakova, the host of Risky Business, Ellie Hassenfeld of GiveWell,

965
00:50:39,516 --> 00:50:41,956
Speaker 2: and to Lorie Santos, the host of The Happiness Lab,

966
00:50:42,076 --> 00:50:44,836
Speaker 2: who got me thinking about giving Tuesday in the first place.

967
00:50:46,076 --> 00:50:49,276
Speaker 2: Today's show was produced by Lucy Sullivan and Isabelle Carter,

968
00:50:49,916 --> 00:50:55,156
Speaker 2: edited by Sarah Nix, and engineered by Jake Gorsky. Special

969
00:50:55,156 --> 00:50:58,596
Speaker 2: thanks to Ryan Dilley, Farah Daygrunge, and Owen Miller. I'm

970
00:50:58,676 --> 00:51:01,956
Speaker 2: Jacob Goldstein and I host the Pushkin Show What's Your Problem?

971
00:51:01,996 --> 00:51:11,796
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.