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Speaker 1: Bodybacks with Joseph Scott Morgan. You look back on it,

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Speaker 1: and after you've been to college, you realize that probably

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Speaker 1: wasn't really the most stressful thing that happened in your life.

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Speaker 1: But for many kids that come into college, they realize

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Speaker 1: their life is full of stress. At that moment, it

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Speaker 1: might be the most they've ever experienced. And how do

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Speaker 1: you relieve yourself from that stress? I don't know there's

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Speaker 1: any number of ways that college kids go about that.

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Speaker 1: But at the University of Wisconsin, they've kind of got

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Speaker 1: a unique area there and it's a place of beauty.

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Speaker 1: It's actually a nature walk. It's called an arboretum, and

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Speaker 1: you can walk through and see all the native species

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Speaker 1: of plants. The walkway kind of curves through this forested area.

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Speaker 1: Of course, all the plants are labeled and that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing, and it's beautiful, as they say, no matter

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Speaker 1: what time of year you're there. But one morning, jogger

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Speaker 1: was going through this beautiful nature area at about six

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Speaker 1: thirty in the morning, and if you can imagine this,

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Speaker 1: this individual looked over along the side of this beautiful

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Speaker 1: nature trail he saw two individuals, both with gunshot ones

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Speaker 1: to their heads. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags.

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Speaker 1: Joining me today is Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie Eggett, I gotta tell you,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I've ever been on a walk

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Speaker 1: and have discovered something of this nature. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I've been on a lot of walks as a death investigator,

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Speaker 1: going through the woods and this sort of thing, but

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Speaker 1: just as a random person, can you imagine the shock

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Speaker 1: and the horror. You're out there to start your day

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Speaker 1: off with a jog and you know, just at the

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Speaker 1: crack of dawn and you look down and you see

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Speaker 1: two fellow human beings laying alongside the road, apparently slaughtered.

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Speaker 1: It certainly would be a surprise at any time, let

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Speaker 1: alone first thing in the morning, where you think you're

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Speaker 1: setting yourself up for the day. A lot of people

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Speaker 1: use that time as they walked, to meditate and plan

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Speaker 1: their day. But around six thirty in the morning, doctor

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Speaker 1: Beth Potter and her husband, Robin Carry, were discovered laying

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Speaker 1: on the pathway to the Arboretum. Doctor Beth worked at

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Speaker 1: the University Health Family Center. She was working on COVID.

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Speaker 1: Her husband Robin was involved in a lot of physical fitness.

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Speaker 1: They had three children, and the morning that they were found,

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Speaker 1: Robin was dead on the scene. Doctor Potter was transported

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Speaker 1: to a local hospital and she died there. Doctor Potter

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Speaker 1: was in her pajamas, her husband was only in his underwear.

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Speaker 1: So given that nature, it would seem they were forced

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Speaker 1: to leave their home. You bet. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I mentioned this, but the date was March thirtieth, Jackie.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question. You ever been to

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Speaker 1: Wisconsin in March. I've never been to Wisconsin. Oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you're missing a tree, because I got to tell you,

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Speaker 1: Wisconsin is one of my favorite states. It's absolutely gorgeous.

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Speaker 1: But let me tell you something else about March in Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: It can be brutal. And the particular morning when they

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Speaker 1: were found, the overnight temps had been in the thirties,

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Speaker 1: which I guess by Wisconsin standards at that time of year.

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Speaker 1: Even though you're you know, you're in the first part

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Speaker 1: of spring. That's still that's that's kind of warmer than normal.

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Speaker 1: But it's not a location. You know, you wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: out in the elements like this of your own volition.

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Speaker 1: Robin he was. He was only dressed in underwear. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine that that? And that's a good investigative pickup

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Speaker 1: on your part, Jackie, because when you, you know, you

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Speaker 1: think about contextually, when you look at a body at

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Speaker 1: a scene, particularly an outdoors scene, you think, well, are

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Speaker 1: they closed appropriately, you know, to the circumstances, and of

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Speaker 1: course in this case, they weren't. He's in his underwear.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine any circumstance under which I would leave

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Speaker 1: my home dressed like that or absent other clothing at

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Speaker 1: that time of year and those kind of temperatures. And

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Speaker 1: then you think about his wife. She was found there

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Speaker 1: in just for Pj's, alongside that pathway, and the way

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Speaker 1: they've kind of described the area where they were found

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Speaker 1: its kind of a ditch. It doesn't sound like a

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Speaker 1: real deep ditch. It just sounds like a little kind

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Speaker 1: of a wash, if you will, where water just kind

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Speaker 1: of gently drains away through this area. And you begin

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Speaker 1: to think, as an investigator, what would bring two people

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Speaker 1: to this location almost two miles away from their home,

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Speaker 1: which is you know, driven by car, it's not that far,

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Speaker 1: but you know that they probably didn't walk and their

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Speaker 1: car is nowhere to be seen. How did in fact

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Speaker 1: they wind up there? And that probably initially, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you're coming into cold as an investiator, that's going

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Speaker 1: to be the biggest question, I think, and you have

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Speaker 1: to ask that question and really seek that answer out

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Speaker 1: because I think therein is you know, it's going to

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Speaker 1: rest at genesis for the rest of this case. Robin

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Speaker 1: Carry was dead on the scene, but again Beth Potter

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Speaker 1: was taken to a local hospital. Do we know if

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Speaker 1: Carry died because of the gunshot wound or was it

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Speaker 1: exacerbated from the cold temperatures and hypothermia. Again, he was

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Speaker 1: only dressed in underwear. Yeah, well, cold temperatures didn't help.

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Speaker 1: But let me tell you this injury that Robin Carry

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Speaker 1: sustained is absolutely lethal. There were a lot of clues

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Speaker 1: at the scene relative to that that the police really,

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Speaker 1: you know, gave a lot of thought to. In addition

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Speaker 1: to the absence of warm clothing. He was essentially shot

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Speaker 1: in the back of the head, but just off to

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Speaker 1: the left, right behind his left ear, if you will,

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Speaker 1: And when that projectile tracked across the interior of his skull,

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Speaker 1: it would leave a path that would essentially go from

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Speaker 1: back to front and from left to right, and so

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Speaker 1: you're essentially cutting across diagonally across the brain, and you

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Speaker 1: have to think that it would track across both hemispheres,

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Speaker 1: both left and the right hemispheres of the brain. And

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Speaker 1: so this is an unsurvivable injury that he sustained. However,

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Speaker 1: you know his wife that that's a completely separate set

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Speaker 1: to her injuries, because amazingly, and I mean amazingly, she

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Speaker 1: was discovered when they were both discovered, but particularly her,

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Speaker 1: when she was discovered, she still had agonal respirations. That

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Speaker 1: means that she still had a heartbeat, she was taking

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Speaker 1: up oxygen now limited. I can only imagine there were

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Speaker 1: probably very shallow respirations, but they did transport her from

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Speaker 1: the scene and take her into the hospital, and probably

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Speaker 1: what was mentioned earlier about the temp sometimes sometimes there's

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Speaker 1: a level of preservation that goes on the colder it is,

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Speaker 1: and maybe for that moment time she lived simply because

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Speaker 1: it was a bit cooler outside than normal. I have

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Speaker 1: two questions. Job, you said doctor Potter still had agonal respirations,

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Speaker 1: So was that truly given that she was shot in

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Speaker 1: the head. Wasn't she still breathing? Or is that more

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Speaker 1: of an autonomic response where the body is continuing its

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Speaker 1: normal functions. That's an excellent question, and you know, you

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Speaker 1: can really only get into that once you get actually

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Speaker 1: into the autopsy to determine the extent of the damage.

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Speaker 1: My suspicion is that in Robin's case, the trauma was

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Speaker 1: so extensive and he was just in an unrecoverable flat

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Speaker 1: span at that point, you know, and it was probably

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Speaker 1: relatively instantaneous, I would imagine, for him, but for her. Interestingly,

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Speaker 1: he was shot on the left side, and if I

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Speaker 1: remember correctly, her gunshot wound was more on the right

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Speaker 1: side of her head. And I don't know that the

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Speaker 1: trajectory was the same. And you know, people would say, well,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean by that, Well, depended upon the

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Speaker 1: direction of the travel of the bullet itself. You have

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Speaker 1: to begin at autopsy, and particularly you have to begin

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Speaker 1: to try to appreciate what vital areas of the brain.

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Speaker 1: Now that there are certain traumas that your brain you know,

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Speaker 1: can sustain and they are completely survivable. And there's any

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Speaker 1: number of stories you know that are out there in literature.

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Speaker 1: I think, probably famously is this kind of anecdotal story

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Speaker 1: about how the idea of a lobotomy came about. And

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Speaker 1: you know, this fellow back in the eighteen mid eighteen

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Speaker 1: hundreds was standing in adjacent to a mining area and

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Speaker 1: a big metal bar was sent skyward as a result

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Speaker 1: of an explosion, and when it came down, it actually

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Speaker 1: pierced the frontal area of his brain and they had

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Speaker 1: to extract this thing, but it only involved his frontal

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Speaker 1: lobes and after that he became very docile. Well that's

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Speaker 1: a traumatic brain injury back then, and he survived that.

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Speaker 1: You can survive a brain injury, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: it is going to be depended upon what areas of

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Speaker 1: the brain are penetrated. Bega, That's just exactly what I

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Speaker 1: was going to ask you. It's like, once again like

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Speaker 1: you're reading my mind, because I was going to ask

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Speaker 1: does it make a difference because you said he was

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Speaker 1: shot behind his ear, So does it make a difference

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Speaker 1: where you're shot? Oh yeah, depending upon your survivability? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: most definitely. I'd love to, you know, give this kind

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Speaker 1: of tactile demonstration to folks in class. I tell my

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Speaker 1: students to take their index finger essentially and find the

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Speaker 1: you know, find the big Knight on the back of

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Speaker 1: their skull and run inferior to that big knight, you know,

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Speaker 1: the anatomus called the occipital protuberance. You go below that

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Speaker 1: and you start to get into that area that does

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Speaker 1: control the autonomic nervous system down towards the brain stem.

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Speaker 1: And when that area is traumatized, you know, you can

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Speaker 1: almost bet your bottom dollar that you're going to shut

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Speaker 1: down everything or from heart function to lung function and

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Speaker 1: all those sorts of things, getting into that kind of

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Speaker 1: primal brain area that controls those things that we don't

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Speaker 1: normally think about having, you know, you think about having

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Speaker 1: to breathe. You don't think about your heart beating, you know.

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Speaker 1: And then you have higher functions that are involved in

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Speaker 1: either of the lobes, kind of higher up and forward

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Speaker 1: and that sort of things. And sometimes depended upon what

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Speaker 1: kind of treatment you get, those events are survivable. And

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Speaker 1: it would year that the doctor survived for some time

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Speaker 1: out there now precisely when it's you know, I can't

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Speaker 1: give you an exact time, but she lived long enough

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Speaker 1: that they did what's called running a code, that ran

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Speaker 1: a code on her from the scene where she was

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Speaker 1: extricated from there in the nature area, to the local hospital,

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Speaker 1: and of course it was awful, not because she died

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Speaker 1: in the emergency. You begin to think about your you know,

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Speaker 1: you want this place a piece that she can go

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Speaker 1: to and probably walked around the entire time you've been

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Speaker 1: living in a location. It's probably a place that you

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Speaker 1: have fond memories of. I can't imagine that either one

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Speaker 1: of these two victims could, in their wildest dreams, ever

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Speaker 1: imagined that their lives were essentially going to end there

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Speaker 1: in that beautiful nature preserve. Well, that sets me up

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Speaker 1: for a great question. You said their lives are going

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Speaker 1: to end there. We suppose that they were forced from

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Speaker 1: their home at gunpoint because they were shot. How do

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Speaker 1: we know that they were killed on the pathway. When

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Speaker 1: the investigators were processing the scene, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that kind of really stood out to them, other than

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Speaker 1: the fact that you've got people that are very poorly

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Speaker 1: clothed for this time of year, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that really stood out to them was what appeared to

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Speaker 1: be the underlying volume of blood that had pooled beneath

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Speaker 1: the bodies. First, you know, Robin remained there, and he's

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Speaker 1: kind of the benchmark because his body was not removed

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Speaker 1: from that location. Now with Beth Potter, she was removed,

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Speaker 1: so anything that had any blood that had issued forth

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Speaker 1: from her body was just essentially there as a pool

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Speaker 1: that was without her body to be observed in context

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Speaker 1: with it. But when they began to look at Robin's body,

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Speaker 1: they began to appreciate the blood spatter patterns that were

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Speaker 1: on him and adjacent to the area around his body,

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Speaker 1: in addition to the blood that had pulled. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know that folks really think about this very often,

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Speaker 1: but just in your life, just think about it anytime

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Speaker 1: you've sustained some kind of open head injury, and it

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Speaker 1: can not just be your scalp, but even your nose.

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Speaker 1: If you if you catch a bloody nose or maybe

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Speaker 1: perhaps have sustained some kind of blunt force trauma to

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Speaker 1: the scalp where you've you know, you've nicked your scalp

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Speaker 1: in some way, you bleed profusely. And one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons is is that your head is arguably one of

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Speaker 1: the most vascular areas of your body. So when trauma

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Speaker 1: is sustained there, you're going to have a huge volume,

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Speaker 1: huge volume of blood that will issue forth from any

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Speaker 1: kind of injury, and sometimes when you see those the

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Speaker 1: amount of blood comes out, you automatically think that it's

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Speaker 1: a very nasty injury, and that's not always the case.

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Speaker 1: It's just that there's so much blood that's constantly circulating

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Speaker 1: through that area that the slightest little neck can turn

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Speaker 1: into something major as far as an issue of blood.

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Speaker 1: But in this case, what they surmised was this they

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Speaker 1: knew because they were not bearing witness to any kind

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Speaker 1: of drag marks, they didn't see any kind of blood

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Speaker 1: staining that had criss crossed over that pathway leading up

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Speaker 1: to where their bodies were found, that everything relative to

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Speaker 1: blood evidence was contained in that specific area. And when

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Speaker 1: you take that and you look at that, you think

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Speaker 1: of that snapshot in your mind, you have to come

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Speaker 1: to conclusion, well, they were traumatized specifically in that location,

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't something that perhaps happened in their home,

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Speaker 1: that it happened up the path some distance or in

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Speaker 1: the parking lot to get access to the nature area,

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Speaker 1: that it had actually happened there. Because it's not just

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Speaker 1: the pooling of blood. We think about these dynamic patterns,

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Speaker 1: and when you think about gunshot wounds, we get into

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Speaker 1: this area of velocity, you know, the velocity that that

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Speaker 1: und comes out at the end of that muzzle, and

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Speaker 1: it generates a high velocity pattern when it comes out,

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Speaker 1: And that means that the tiniest of droplets that can

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Speaker 1: essentially be created are created because of the high velocity

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Speaker 1: of the realnd that you're struck with, and then concurrently,

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Speaker 1: the blood that comes out of that the droplets are tinier. Say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, if someone were struck with a blunt of

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Speaker 1: click a baseball bat or a hammer or whatever the

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Speaker 1: case might be, you might think that you're hitting them hard.

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Speaker 1: But you cannot strike an individual and generate the same

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Speaker 1: velocity with a bad or a hammer or whatever a

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Speaker 1: lead pipe as you can when that lead core projectile

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Speaker 1: strikes that skull and this explosion occurs, and these tiny,

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Speaker 1: tiny little droplets of blood issue forth from there. Given

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Speaker 1: the cooler temperatures, as you pointed out it was early

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Speaker 1: morning March Wisconsin, would the cooler temperatures affect how much

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Speaker 1: blood pulled out of the body, or the texture and

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Speaker 1: the thickness of the blood as it pulled, and the

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Speaker 1: shape and the way that it would flow out of

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Speaker 1: the body. Yeah, I suppose that it could now in

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Speaker 1: the short term obviously, when you're thinking about the immediate event,

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Speaker 1: that immediate traumatic event, it's the blood is going to

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Speaker 1: issue for at the same rate as it would in

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Speaker 1: any other circumstances, and you know the first few minutes, okay,

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Speaker 1: particularly at the initial impact. But I suppose, I suppose

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Speaker 1: that it's within the realm of possibility that things would

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Speaker 1: begin to slow down. And you have to keep in

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Speaker 1: mind that though it is a liquid, it is a

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Speaker 1: component liquid. It's a liquid that's composed of many parts.

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Speaker 1: And you know, everybody's handled their own blood at some

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Speaker 1: point in time, and you know that that there is

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Speaker 1: attackiness to it, that it doesn't feel like water, you know.

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Speaker 1: And again, you know, our ancestors had a right, you

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Speaker 1: know when they said blood is thicker than water, and

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Speaker 1: there's there's truth in that, and that thickness is actually

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Speaker 1: something that you refer to as viscosity. You hear this

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Speaker 1: many times in association with motor oil. You know, they

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Speaker 1: talk about the viscosity of oil and that goes to

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Speaker 1: the thickness of the substance. And so, yeah, blood has

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Speaker 1: got a viscosity that's certainly different than say, for instance,

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Speaker 1: of water, but you know, you begin to think about it,

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Speaker 1: does it have a consistency that say, comparatable to maybe

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Speaker 1: a syrup, like a clear corn syrup. Yeah. Perhaps a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, you know, there's several recipes out there

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Speaker 1: from making fake blood where they're using a corn syrup

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Speaker 1: in order as an initiator, in order to create those patterns.

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Speaker 1: You know that we work within the lab and teach

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Speaker 1: students within that sort of thing. Cool weather could slow

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Speaker 1: it down to a certain degree. And it's certainly I

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Speaker 1: think at least a combined with the location of the

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Speaker 1: gunshot relative to Doc Potter's injuries, and maybe a relative

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Speaker 1: to the ambient environmental temperature that contributed to the fact

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Speaker 1: that she survived, certainly survived longer than Robin. Robin probably

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Speaker 1: died pretty much instantaneously. Also at the scene there were

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Speaker 1: shell casings found. What did that tell us? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was really surprised when I found out what type of

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Speaker 1: ammunition was used, you know, And this kind of came

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Speaker 1: out in the news following the investigation of the scene

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Speaker 1: and the police work in this case. There had been

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Speaker 1: some thought, given some social media history that was out there,

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Speaker 1: that perhaps a clock firearm was used in this case.

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Speaker 1: And what was what came into focus here was that

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Speaker 1: the ammunition that was found out there is not something

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Speaker 1: that's quite typical. You know, you think about things like

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Speaker 1: nine millimeter, a forty caliber, forty five caliber, even maybe

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Speaker 1: for some people ten millimeter. They actually found sig sour

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Speaker 1: three fifty seven rounds spent casings out there. And you

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Speaker 1: may have heard of a three fifty seven before, you know,

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Speaker 1: for those that are listening, a three fifty seven traditionally

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Speaker 1: has always been associated with the revolver, very powerful revolver

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Speaker 1: that was popular with police officers, certainly back in the

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Speaker 1: seventies and into the eighties when police were still carrying revolvers.

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Speaker 1: Through fifty seven was very common. But that's a bit

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Speaker 1: of ammo that's used for revolvers. However, in this case,

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Speaker 1: they recovered six three fifty seven ammunition that is made

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Speaker 1: for a semi auto. And I'm not saying that it's

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Speaker 1: it's exotic, Okay, This is not something that somebody's cooked

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Speaker 1: up in their basement or something that you know, you

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Speaker 1: had to order and you know, we take forever and

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Speaker 1: ever to get in. You can buy it through retailers.

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Speaker 1: It's just that it's it's not your standard fare. You know,

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Speaker 1: when you begin to think about what somebody's weapon and

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Speaker 1: am of choice might be. So what does that mean

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Speaker 1: for the investigators? Well, you know, for them, this begins

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Speaker 1: to really narrow down the field because you know, you

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Speaker 1: begin to think about, well, how many nine millimeter pistols

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Speaker 1: you know are out there? How many forty caliber pistols

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Speaker 1: are out there? Well, there's there's a lot. I mean

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Speaker 1: they're everywhere, you know, they're all over the place. Our

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Speaker 1: military has carried nine millimeter side arms forever and ever

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Speaker 1: so of our police officers. So it's it's not an

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Speaker 1: uncommon round for an investigator. When you get a piece

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Speaker 1: of evidence like a three fifty seven sig, well, that

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Speaker 1: narrows the focus now and you can begin to kind

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Speaker 1: of look at things like, well, who may have purchased

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Speaker 1: three fifty seven a weapon that's chambered for three fifty seven,

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Speaker 1: and who may have purchased ammunition that would marry up

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Speaker 1: with that particular weapon, And suddenly your choices become very

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Speaker 1: slim at that point. And that's from an investigative standpoint.

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Speaker 1: That's a home run. Three or four shell casings were

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Speaker 1: found by police nearby and the individuals the runners who

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Speaker 1: discovered their body talk about there being a large amount

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Speaker 1: of blood covering Potter's pajamas, that her breath was faint

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Speaker 1: and her pulse was fragile, and as the person who

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Speaker 1: found them stepped away to be able to call nine

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Speaker 1: one one to get help, Potter raised her arm. So

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Speaker 1: what's the possibility would she have been in and out

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Speaker 1: of consciousness all night long? Or do we think that

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Speaker 1: she probably late there figuring out how are we going

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Speaker 1: to get help? Wow, what a horrible thought that is.

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Speaker 1: You know that you would consider that this poor woman

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Speaker 1: who has been gunned down is immobile, She's incapable of moving.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know that she would have had the

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Speaker 1: ability to even understand at that point that her husband

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Speaker 1: was lying there not too far away from her deceased.

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Speaker 1: You know, you start to think about higher brain function

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Speaker 1: at a time, what's a level of awareness that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing is. Obviously she had enough brain activity so

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Speaker 1: that she, as I said earlier, you know, she had

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Speaker 1: these kind of agonal respirations, shallow breathing, that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: faint heartbeat and you know her respirations, and that means

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Speaker 1: that there's a lot of effort probably being put in

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Speaker 1: relative to her body in order to uptake oxygen. It's

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Speaker 1: really difficult to say if if she had that kind

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Speaker 1: of awareness at that level, you know, being able to

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Speaker 1: think these things, or one of the things that you

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Speaker 1: look for at a scene relative to the decease. You know,

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Speaker 1: we talked about some of the blood evidence, and I

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Speaker 1: think that one of the other things that comes along.

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Speaker 1: It's a horrible thing to think about it, but it

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Speaker 1: is something that we consider. Is there evidence of their

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Speaker 1: own volition, perhaps that the victim had moved about in

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Speaker 1: the throes of death if you will, where they're kind

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Speaker 1: of thrashing about. Sometimes you'll see this where their hands

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Speaker 1: will scrape dirt or their arms will scrape back and forth. Famously,

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Speaker 1: you know, people will claw at the earth when they're

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Speaker 1: in excruciating pain or they're trying to become mobile again.

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Speaker 1: If you will, you'll get dirt beneath the fingernails. And

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Speaker 1: it's not always associated with a struggle. It's like a

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Speaker 1: one on one person to person struggle. Sometimes it's associated

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Speaker 1: with just this will to want to live, and some

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Speaker 1: of those findings can be quite horrific. I've been on

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Speaker 1: scenes before where individuals have kind of clawed at the

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Speaker 1: walls while they're covered in blood after they've been attacked

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Speaker 1: and had nothing to do with the attack itself. In

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Speaker 1: the throes of the attack, when they were say, either

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Speaker 1: knived or shot, it had to do with them just

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Speaker 1: trying to survive, and that would be something that the

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Speaker 1: investigators would have to surmise. Now, obviously, in Robin's case,

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Speaker 1: it appears that he died rather suddenly. You know that

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Speaker 1: he died there, But it would be very interesting to

399
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Speaker 1: go back and look at those areas where the doctor

400
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: lay and if you have these kind of scrubbed out

401
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 1: areas where her arms had moved back and forth, legs

402
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: maybe thrashing about in this or a lot of disruption

403
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Speaker 1: of that kind of the earth beneath her, and that

404
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Speaker 1: that would take time for that to occur. Was there

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Speaker 1: evidence of that? And again, you know, you say, well,

406
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Speaker 1: what does that mean for us as investigators? That does

407
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: that bear any significance? Yeah, yeah, of course it does,

408
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: because when you take a case like this to trial,

409
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Speaker 1: it shows how brutal this event was and how cold

410
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Speaker 1: hearted it was that you would not only take this

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Speaker 1: poor woman out there in her pajamas in the middle

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Speaker 1: of a cold, cold night and then desperately injure her

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Speaker 1: like this and leave her there to suffer all night long. Again,

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Speaker 1: that goes to a very callousness I think on the

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Speaker 1: part of Perpetra, doctor Beth Potter, and Robin Carey, who

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Speaker 1: would want to end their lives? I don't understand that,

417
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Speaker 1: And I think that was a big question because both

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Speaker 1: of these people you're talking about giving back to a community,

419
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: to this place that he lived in least two were

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Speaker 1: famous locally for helping and having big hearts. And I

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Speaker 1: think that sometimes the people that are the kindest attract

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Speaker 1: some of the must wicked people out there. The search

423
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 1: turned to a suspect. Police began to do the recon

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00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: order as they normally do, checking close to the family first.

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Speaker 1: They began to check video in and around the home.

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Speaker 1: They began to check cell phone records. So as the

427
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: search began, Joe, what did we see happening? Most homicides,

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Speaker 1: when they occur, they don't occur in some kind of vacuum.

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Speaker 1: You know, everybody's afraid of strangers, stranger on stranger crime

430
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: they talk about and it does happen. Don't get me wrong.

431
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: It happens every day. But the lines heare of these

432
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: cases where investigators are going to come back to that small,

433
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: tiny circle that you've created, and I think probably for

434
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: the police, you know, when they began to look into this,

435
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: they want to know who occupies the same space with

436
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: the two victims. And number one at the top of

437
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: the list was going to be their daughter, who went

438
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: by the name Miriam, that's her given name, but they

439
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: called her. Everybody called her Mimi, and she's rather young

440
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: un she's teen, and she was living in their home

441
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: along with their boyfriend. And this young man had been

442
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: taken in kindly by her parents, allowed to stay there.

443
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: And this young man who went by the name Carrie Sandford,

444
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: was classmates with their daughter. But we have to put

445
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: this in context, all right. When this case Kurt, which

446
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: was in twenty twenty, we were creeping as a nation

447
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: up into you know, those we were passing through that

448
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: very scary time in the country where people were social distancing,

449
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: people were being told to stay apart, where you didn't

450
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: know anything about this virus, this coronavirus. You had no

451
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: idea how it was going to impact anybody. And doctor

452
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: Potter herself had health issues. Now, keep in mind, she's

453
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: a healthcare provider, so she's going to be hypersensitive to this.

454
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: She was seeing people in her clinic that she was treating,

455
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that many people were coming in that

456
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 1: were you presenting with COVID symptomology. And she's on medication

457
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: that personally put her at risk for not just contracting

458
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: the virus, but if she did contract it the weakened

459
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: immune system, it could really cause her to go downhill fast.

460
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: And so when you're living in close quarters to somebody,

461
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: you have a perceived danger of what could be going

462
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: on around you. And so with her and her husband

463
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: were practicing social distancing within their home. I think they

464
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: were probably staying away from people as much as it could.

465
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: But her daughter and her boyfriend, who again had been

466
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: allowed to live in their home, refused to comply. They

467
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: absolutely refused to comply with the rules of the house.

468
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: And there was a lot of tension in this home.

469
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: There was angry fights over it, refusal to comply. And

470
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: you know, doctor Potter was no fool. You know, she

471
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: knew what kind of risk existed out there. If you're

472
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: going outside the home, you could bring something back in

473
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you know, she's looking

474
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: at being deathly ill, and perhaps her husband as well.

475
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 1: And I guess the rest of their family could be two,

476
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: but these two would not comply. But going back to

477
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: this idea of how kind hearted they were, they actually

478
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: arranged to have their daughter and her boyfriend live in

479
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: an airbnb for which they were going to pay for.

480
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: They were just kind to a fault in essence that

481
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: may have been part of the problem. Besides the physical

482
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: evidence that was found at the scene. One of the

483
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: things that we talk about a lot is the fact

484
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: that people who tend to be criminal or take part

485
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: in criminal behavior cannot keep their mouth shut. Sanford began

486
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: talking with friends. Sandford is quoted as saying, once he

487
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: found out that one of the victims was at the

488
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: hospital and still alive, he reportedly said, I shot them.

489
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: I know I shot them. So how much does here

490
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: say play and how much weight does it have in

491
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: a court of law? Well, first off, let's look at

492
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: it from an investigative standpoint. You know, being now on

493
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 1: the street as an investigator, that ain't a court all right,

494
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: because you're always looking for leads, and certain leads that

495
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: you pick up on would you know those beautiful oaken

496
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: walls that we see. You know, it's played on television

497
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: and courtrooms. You know that idea of hearsay is real

498
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: and you have to play by those rules. But on

499
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: the street, you look for leads, and you know, as

500
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: an investigator, when you're part of that community and you've

501
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: got two of the most upstanding citizens around that are

502
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: found both shot in the head and left like animals dead,

503
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: are for dead essentially out in the wiles during this

504
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: cold early spring, You've got a lot of scared people

505
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: on your hands, and so there's an urgency to this

506
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: to try to get this solved because you're thinking about,

507
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: you know, what in the world is going on here?

508
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: Why would somebody just target people? And then so when

509
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: you begin to hear these conversations that are popping up,

510
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: because you know, you have to keep in mind that

511
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: it's not just about the investigators going to one individual

512
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: in questioning them and then they're calling it done that

513
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: it's not the way it happens. Remember how I talked

514
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: about that kind of circle, that intimate circle that people have.

515
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,959
Speaker 1: Everybody that the police can track down within that intimate

516
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: circle are going to be asked questions. And if somebody

517
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: has loose lips, that has direct knowledge that a crime

518
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: has been committed, I can guarantee you, even if it

519
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 1: comes from a second or third party, those individuals are

520
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: going to be pressed. They're going to be pressed hard

521
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: by investigators, you know, And of course they can invoke

522
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: their Fifth Amendment rights if they so choose to. And

523
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: interestingly enough, now that I've mentioned Fifth Amendment rights, their daughter,

524
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: their own very daughter, their precious Mimi, during the course

525
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: of this actually invoked her Fifth Amendment rights. And so

526
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: anytime you hear that when you're conducting an investigation, it's

527
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: going to make you might not compress that individual any

528
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: further because they have said, look, I don't want to

529
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: say anything else without the presence of an attorney. Okay,

530
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: that's fine. You know, you allow them to at their attorney,

531
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: and they can talk to their attorney until they're blew

532
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: in the face and all that sort of thing. You're

533
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: not going to talk to them directly any longer. But

534
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: at that point in time, you now are armed with

535
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: the information that for some reason, this person feels very

536
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: uncomfortable talking about these homicides, the death of her parents,

537
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: you start pressing on the periphery, and when you do that,

538
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: other information pops up. That relationship that Cary Sandford had

539
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: with Mimi. One of the comments that repeatedly has been

540
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: said by people who knew Cary sandford classmates is that

541
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: he was excited and talked about bands of money. That

542
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: reportedly Beth Potter and Robin carry had classmates told investigators

543
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: that a discussion was overheard between the victim's daughter and

544
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: Sandford in a class that her parents had quote bands

545
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: of money and that they were rich. The root of

546
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: all evil here, you know, you begin to think about

547
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: that and the fact that I think that one of

548
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: the things that resonated with me was that witnesses had

549
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: actually witnessed this young men become excited, you know, and

550
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: some of the descriptions I've read, it almost seems like

551
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: he was vibrating, you know, with joy over the fact

552
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: that his girlfriend and of course their daughter, had spoke

553
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: to him about their wealth, and she described their wealth

554
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: in terms of bands of cash, and I can only

555
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: imagine that what she was referring to or stacks of

556
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: cash maybe that they had on hand and that were

557
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: wrapped in paper wrappers. You know, much like you get

558
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: denominational wrappers that you get from from the bank, and

559
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: they had those on hand. Now, there's certainly no evidence,

560
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 1: I don't think at least that has really come out

561
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: that this was taken. And we do know that they

562
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: went back to the scene after this had occurred, you know,

563
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: when they were removed from their home, and it's chilling

564
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 1: when you begin to think about it, that this may

565
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: have been of motivation. And I think the greater part

566
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: of this is that you've got a young man who,

567
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: according to everyone around, was involved in all this, you know,

568
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 1: kind of civic service around, involved in various groups and

569
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: organizing basketball games for charity. He had his picture made

570
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: with the city's mayor, and you know, all of this

571
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: stuff that had kind of come to the surface about him.

572
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: But then you begin to see kind of the evil

573
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: that dwelled him. There are screenshots from social media accounts

574
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: with him holding what appears to be a semi automatic

575
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,720
Speaker 1: handgun and pointing it directly at a camera and him

576
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 1: looking over the rear sights of the thing and kind

577
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: of gazing into the cameras you stare. You know, if

578
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 1: you're the viewer of this thing, you're staring right down

579
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 1: the muzzle of the weapon. So you get an idea

580
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: that there's something deeper than what was being presented to

581
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,240
Speaker 1: the public, and that he had fooled. He had fooled

582
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: this poor couple that had literally taken him in, had

583
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: taken him in under their wing, had given him shelter,

584
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: had given him food, place to live, allowed him to

585
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: live with their daughter in their own area of the home,

586
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: and then when Tom's got tough, actually provided a location

587
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: that they could go to an airbnb that they were

588
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: going to set them up with, and then allow them

589
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 1: to use their own vehicle to drive about in for

590
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: a time. Again, it just absolutely breaks the heart. This

591
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: is such a senseless, senseless killing. Carry Sandford was convicted

592
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,399
Speaker 1: in the kidnapping and killing of doctor Beth Potter and

593
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: her husband, Robin Carry. He was sentenced to mandatory life

594
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: in prison without the possibility of parole. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,

595
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: and this his body backs