Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 1: and speaker.
Speaker 2: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
Speaker 2: and course creator. We are two working parents who love
Speaker 2: our careers and our families.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 1: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
Speaker 1: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
Speaker 1: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1: Welcome the best of both worlds. This is Laura. This
Speaker 1: episode is airing sort of at the end of winter,
Speaker 1: beginning of spring, maybe not so much beginning of spring.
Speaker 1: We'll see what it airs. But we're going to be
Speaker 1: talking about how to make a name for yourself. So
Speaker 1: the idea of personal branding, being known as an expert
Speaker 1: on something is a useful career skill, probably something many
Speaker 1: of us should be thinking about, but maybe something we
Speaker 1: don't think about quite as much as we should. So, Sarah,
Speaker 1: do you ever google yourself? And how much attention do
Speaker 1: you pay to this to what comes up?
Speaker 2: I do not google myself, really. I do get Google
Speaker 2: alerts so that if my name is published in something
Speaker 2: then Generally i'll get like an email from Google. It's like, oh,
Speaker 2: Sarah Hart Hunger blah blah blah. Now sometimes it's like
Speaker 2: a fake out. There's some shoe company or something I
Speaker 2: say to you, and I'm like, oh, that's not me,
Speaker 2: but that's not meazing. I seem to pick up the highlights,
Speaker 2: which prevents me from googling myself, which is probably good.
Speaker 2: I once looked up my name on Reddit and then
Speaker 2: I was like and thankfully like didn't find anything bad,
Speaker 2: and was like, I'm never doing that again.
Speaker 1: Like I what, Sarah? What was Sarah so curious? I
Speaker 1: haven't looked for myself on Reddit, so I'm very.
Speaker 2: Able for you either. Okay, But then I realized how
Speaker 2: dangerous that was because Reddit is such a snarky place
Speaker 2: and there's nothing constructive that's going to happen if I
Speaker 2: find a thread of people disgruntled with learning about planning.
Speaker 1: But no, all I found was like methods.
Speaker 2: I found like, oh, I was looking for a planner
Speaker 2: podcast and I found Beastly Plans. It was like it
Speaker 2: was something like that. It was totally fine, but I
Speaker 2: remember thinking like, this is not a good idea, and
Speaker 2: I actually, I mean this is on the same vein.
Speaker 2: I'm sort of like, once I write my book, I
Speaker 2: don't think I want to see the reviews. Like I
Speaker 2: could imagine asking my editor to give me like a
Speaker 2: version of the feedback in a nice way, but like, yeah, sorry,
Speaker 2: this veered into a different time.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, I have searched for myself many times because
Speaker 1: I'm just curious what order stuff comes up, right, Like
Speaker 1: where are the places that I have written for or
Speaker 1: been mentioned that are most prominent, Because you know, if
Speaker 1: I'm searching for a guest, like I will search their
Speaker 1: name and see what comes up, and I you know,
Speaker 1: I'm curious, Like that is related to sort of with me,
Speaker 1: like if somebody's searching for me.
Speaker 2: But it's not accurate because Google tailors it to like
Speaker 2: the sites that you've been to. So when you Google yourself,
Speaker 2: it knows your search unless you're going to like somebody
Speaker 2: else's anonymous computer, the results you get are already tailored
Speaker 2: to use.
Speaker 1: Your your life search engines. Just to sort of see
Speaker 1: that would help what is you know there? And I
Speaker 1: mean it's probably worth doing just for anyone, I mean
Speaker 1: for most people. If your name isn't particularly distinctive, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be hard to see. But if it is something
Speaker 1: like your one mention in a local newspaper where you
Speaker 1: were complaining about this dog path that was put through
Speaker 1: your neighborhood, or you know, like you probably don't want
Speaker 1: that to be the first thing to come up, and
Speaker 1: so it might be worth working a little bit on
Speaker 1: like your LinkedIn profile to make sure that comes up
Speaker 1: first or something. Just as a general idea, But what
Speaker 1: making a name for yourself. It's not so much about
Speaker 1: being a public facing thought leader, though of course it
Speaker 1: can be, and would love for any of our listeners
Speaker 1: who want to do that to become world famous experts
Speaker 1: on whatever. But it's also about like just being known
Speaker 1: at your organization as the person you want to find.
Speaker 1: If you want to know X, right, like everyone says, oh,
Speaker 1: well for sitting around the staff meeting on Thursday morning,
Speaker 1: but you want to know X, everyone's looking at you, right,
Speaker 1: Or if a certain situation comes up, everyone's looking at
Speaker 1: you because they know that you're going to have the
Speaker 1: great answer for it. And the reason for this, of
Speaker 1: course is when people want you, you cannot easily be replaced.
Speaker 1: It is as simple as that. I mean in this
Speaker 1: world where AI can probably produce a lot of what
Speaker 1: any of us do. I mean, if you want Laura
Speaker 1: Vanderkam's writings on something, I mean, it could be written
Speaker 1: by a Bye, but you still want Laura's.
Speaker 2: Name on it.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. It's it's the way to
Speaker 1: to make sure what you're doing is distinctive to you. Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, that makes sense.
Speaker 1: So one way to start thinking about this is to
Speaker 1: figure out what you want to be an expert in
Speaker 1: or what you should You already are an expert in
Speaker 1: and a lot of people when I started working with
Speaker 1: the op ed Project a few years ago, and I'm
Speaker 1: a mentor editor for them, so I get people's op
Speaker 1: eds and help them shape them into publishable sorts of things.
Speaker 1: What I learned from them is a lot of people
Speaker 1: find it really hard to call themselves an expert in something.
Speaker 1: And now, if you want to write an op ed
Speaker 1: on something, it really helps to be an expert on
Speaker 1: something that you can tell the editor at that newspaper
Speaker 1: or that magazine, like I am an expert in X
Speaker 1: and here's a piece I wrote about it, And a
Speaker 1: lot of people have trouble with that word an expert
Speaker 1: because it feels like it's bragging. But again, it doesn't
Speaker 1: need to be the world's biggest expert. It's just you know,
Speaker 1: within your spheres, like within your professional spheres, within your
Speaker 1: personal spheres, what are you known for and why do
Speaker 1: people seek you out? So Sarah led to planning as
Speaker 1: your expertise.
Speaker 2: Well, first, I just want to comment, as you're speaking,
Speaker 2: I'm like, there has got to be a big gender
Speaker 2: divide here.
Speaker 1: I just had to say expert on this because I
Speaker 1: read an article on it once.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is not global. I'm sure there are
Speaker 2: men with imposter syndrome and women who feel they are
Speaker 2: expert in everything. But very interesting what you were just
Speaker 2: saying and what I was thinking about. So the planning thing,
Speaker 2: I just love planners and started posting a lot, and
Speaker 2: I noticed that was something that people responded to and
Speaker 2: also something that I found myself naturally obsessed with to
Speaker 2: the point where I think I became an expert. But
Speaker 2: I actually don't even think I became an expert until I, like,
Speaker 2: I don't know start. It's like circular, right, because the
Speaker 2: more you delve into something, anymore you speak about something,
Speaker 2: the more you learn about it, or the more you
Speaker 2: learn what other people need about it, et cetera. So
Speaker 2: I actually think the expert like I probably would have
Speaker 2: argued with you about the planning expert like three years ago,
Speaker 2: but now I feel like I could wear that pretty well.
Speaker 2: I think it's also just a passion, like a legit
Speaker 2: passion for me. I really believe that effective planning can
Speaker 2: help us enjoy life more so why not spend time
Speaker 2: doing it and learn to do it well? And I
Speaker 2: think when you have a strong conviction like that, it's
Speaker 2: easier to position yourself as an expert because you're like
Speaker 2: I am helping people learn this that I have learned
Speaker 2: over time, and then I also just feel like expert.
Speaker 2: I wanted to make a note that being an expert
Speaker 2: like very much depends on context because on a community level,
Speaker 2: like when I'm at a birthday party or like out
Speaker 2: in the world, no one asked me about planners, but
Speaker 2: everybody asked me about their kids endocretin issues.
Speaker 1: So you are a dual expert, Sarah. You actually have
Speaker 1: real expertise in two very distinct areas.
Speaker 2: Very distinct areas. Although I don't have like one thing
Speaker 2: I focus on. I like to think I'm an expert
Speaker 2: in like explaining things well in the clinic and have
Speaker 2: an efficiently running office and make kids feel good during
Speaker 2: the appointment. So if anything, I'm just like an jack
Speaker 2: of all trees pediatric intergrenologists. But I was just gonna
Speaker 2: say that I used to really resent my expertise in
Speaker 2: this realm and like get annoyed when people would ask
Speaker 2: me questions like oh, I'm not working, And somehow over
Speaker 2: the years I have very much softened to that, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, it's fine, Like, let me tell you what
Speaker 2: I know, let me try to help you, let me
Speaker 2: figure out if you're someone that one of my colleagues
Speaker 2: should see. I try not to like see people personally
Speaker 2: if I know them well enough, because then it's just weird.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I've gotten to almost enjoy that expert status,
Speaker 2: and that took a really long time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh you should own it. I think it is
Speaker 1: great when people can feel like they are confident in
Speaker 1: their knowledge of something. And obviously some things that make that.
Speaker 1: You know, if you have a medical degree in a
Speaker 1: particular field, that does tend to show that you are
Speaker 1: an expert in it. Other things, it's a little bit
Speaker 1: less straightforward. But we can figure that out. So we're
Speaker 1: going to take a quick ad break and we'll come
Speaker 1: back and talk a little bit more about expertise.
Speaker 2: Okay, we're back. So, Laura, you are a time management expert.
Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about that path, how
Speaker 2: it came to be and like maybe when you decided
Speaker 2: that you had this expertise?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so's nobody really grows up saying I want to
Speaker 1: be a time management expert or something like that. So
Speaker 1: it does, in fact need to develop over time, which
Speaker 1: means there was a point where that was not what
Speaker 1: I was doing. And I was trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what is my area that I'm going to write about.
Speaker 1: And I distinctly remember kind of in my late twenties
Speaker 1: casting about in a bunch of different areas, Like I
Speaker 1: wrote a bunch of different things. I was interested in
Speaker 1: the intersection of work in life, and I wrote a
Speaker 1: bunch of different articles related to that. And I had
Speaker 1: written a bunch of profiles of different people, and I
Speaker 1: kind of noticed that I was always interested did in
Speaker 1: their schedules and how they were fitting in the various
Speaker 1: things that they were doing. But it was not straightforward
Speaker 1: at all. I was hoping to write a book. I
Speaker 1: had put some stuff out in the world. I got
Speaker 1: a meeting with an editor over at Portfolio, which is
Speaker 1: part of Penguin Random House now, and they wanted to
Speaker 1: talk with me about book ideas, and we kind of
Speaker 1: worked through some of the stuff I had and came
Speaker 1: up with one hundred and sixty eight hours Angle. And
Speaker 1: so I wrote that book. And when you write a
Speaker 1: book about something, you do have at least a way
Speaker 1: of saying you're an expert. Like, look, I wrote this
Speaker 1: commercially published book that you are seeing on the Today
Speaker 1: Show that shows that perhaps I am a time management expert.
Speaker 1: But that still wasn't one hundred percent clear. I mean,
Speaker 1: longtime listeners know that. I then wrote a book on
Speaker 1: personal finance called All the Money in the World, because
Speaker 1: you know, it was casting around like what was going
Speaker 1: to be the next thing? And then I wrote a
Speaker 1: third thing called What the Most Successful People Do Before
Speaker 1: Breakfast did pretty well, and so then that sort of
Speaker 1: cemented it as the time management area, like that that
Speaker 1: was what I was going to be talking about. But
Speaker 1: I am interested in it, like you have to be
Speaker 1: interested in it. You have to want to keep learning
Speaker 1: more and I think it helps to have at least
Speaker 1: somewhat of a broad enough area that you can take
Speaker 1: different angles into it, Like you could write about anyone
Speaker 1: in the world and write about their schedule. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I think there's something to be said for that.
Speaker 2: That's why there's more than one book in your collections.
Speaker 1: So many many Laura Vandercamp books that I keep trying
Speaker 1: to come up with with different things. And I think
Speaker 1: you have to be passionate about it, because the thing is,
Speaker 1: you're going to have to keep cameering away at building
Speaker 1: this expertise for a long time, and if it's kind
Speaker 1: of a thing that you don't necessarily always want to do, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I know I need to send this newsletter each week
Speaker 1: to show that I'm an expert, but I don't want to, Like,
Speaker 1: it's going to be hard to keep.
Speaker 2: That up totally. And I think people can kind of
Speaker 2: sense the and the sincerity, Like, Okay, is this person
Speaker 2: like writing about the new pointers because they felt they
Speaker 2: like had to, or because they're like really excited because
Speaker 2: they saw the spring launch and they can compare it
Speaker 2: to the other launches and they're excited to share it
Speaker 2: with you. So like I think it comes off somehow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So if you're trying to figure this out, I mean,
Speaker 1: look at the things that people always come to you for, right,
Speaker 1: If there's something that people are always asking you about,
Speaker 1: that's a good hint at what they see as you
Speaker 1: as being good at within your group, your community, the
Speaker 1: things you always find yourself pursuing. Like, if you have
Speaker 1: free time, what are the things you sort of look into,
Speaker 1: what it's the kind of work you like to do? First,
Speaker 1: ask other people what they think they see you as
Speaker 1: uniquely good at, because sometimes it's harder for us to
Speaker 1: see it for ourselves and to sort of keep casting about,
Speaker 1: Like what makes you feel energized when you think about
Speaker 1: spending more time learning about it and talking about it
Speaker 1: and helping people with this, that's a good sign.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that. What do people always come up
Speaker 2: and ask you about? And it may not be what
Speaker 2: you think you know, Like, maybe you're a lawyer, but
Speaker 2: everyone's asking you about like XYZ template, or maybe it's
Speaker 2: just some very specific niche within your expertise. That's a
Speaker 2: sign like that's valuable, so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or maybe it's something completely outside of that. I mean,
Speaker 1: you're a lawyer and people are asking you about your
Speaker 1: travel hacks. So, I mean, who knows. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: you're going to switch careers, but it's something that you
Speaker 1: might think about for a future pivot or for a
Speaker 1: side gig, or something you might want to do when
Speaker 1: you maybe scale down the main career at some point
Speaker 1: and scale up other things. So things to think about now.
Speaker 1: Of course, just because you call yourself an expert in
Speaker 1: something doesn't mean the world's gonna believe it. So how
Speaker 1: do we provide evidence of our expertise for the world. So,
Speaker 1: people who've read Dori Clark's book, she has an excellent
Speaker 1: book called stand Out, which is about how to find
Speaker 1: your breakthrough idea and to following around it. So that's
Speaker 1: basically how to become a thought leader. Right, you need
Speaker 1: to thought and then you need to be a leader
Speaker 1: about that thought that people are willing to follow you.
Speaker 1: And she talks about finding social proof, like how can
Speaker 1: you show social proof that you are an expert in
Speaker 1: this topic? So, Sarah, when you recently sold a book
Speaker 1: on your planning methods, what do you think was helpful
Speaker 1: with showing that you were an expert on this topic?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so definitely my body of work my podcast. I
Speaker 2: think that's what led an editor to be interested in
Speaker 2: my work to begin with, Like, oh, this person knows
Speaker 2: what she's talking about. And also there's two hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty episodes, you know, and she didn't start it yesterday.
Speaker 2: There's like a breath here and an experience. The fact
Speaker 2: that other people expressed interest really really helps, and if
Speaker 2: that can be done in some sort of a public way,
Speaker 2: that can help. Now that was not done purposefully, but
Speaker 2: I had like one blog post where I wrote about
Speaker 2: how many productivity authors were men and how I would
Speaker 2: love to be part of this, and I think I
Speaker 2: got like a hundred people that were like, yes, do it,
Speaker 2: I want this and being able to share that. I
Speaker 2: don't know if that was helpful, but I certainly included
Speaker 2: it in my pitch. I definitely think also this is
Speaker 2: a little different, but like having some kind of like
Speaker 2: niche or perspective that's a little bit something just sets
Speaker 2: you out in the market, like if there are a
Speaker 2: million people talking about the same thing, like being able
Speaker 2: to say, like, what makes you different? For me, some
Speaker 2: of that was like having a partly having a non
Speaker 2: flexible traditional job and kind of coming at it from
Speaker 2: that perspective, plus the female perspective I think was helpful,
Speaker 2: and then finally just the cred of having successfully built
Speaker 2: a podcast audience, a newsletter audience, a consistent blog audience
Speaker 2: over many, many years. Like they can tell like there
Speaker 2: are people who are interested, and also I'm not the
Speaker 2: kind of person who's going to be like, oh, I'll
Speaker 2: promote the book and then like disappear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you've done two hundred and fifty podcasts, it
Speaker 1: seems like you could probably do one hundred more, right,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like that's not a huge leap of
Speaker 1: faith to assume that you would caninue to promote the topic. Yeah,
Speaker 1: various things can count as social proof. I mean some
Speaker 1: of the more straightforward obvious ones, like a degree in
Speaker 1: something or a license in something, so you know, if
Speaker 1: you want to be sharing medical stuff as an expertise,
Speaker 1: having some sort of medical credential is generally helpful. Whether
Speaker 1: you are a nurse or a doctor or pharmacist or
Speaker 1: something in that field that is going to show that
Speaker 1: you have medical credentials there, or if it is a
Speaker 1: field where there is a licensure process, Like I know,
Speaker 1: I would take advice on various psychological things more seriously
Speaker 1: from someone who is a licensed therapist. Right, that's just
Speaker 1: something that shows proof. Now, of course, there's many things
Speaker 1: in life that have nothing to do with degrees. I
Speaker 1: do not have a degree in time management. I don't
Speaker 1: even know if there is such a thing. I've sometimes
Speaker 1: been asked about that.
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, no, maybe you can start time management university.
Speaker 1: Time management university, the private, privately independently run like for
Speaker 1: profit universe. Sounds like such a snake oil sort of
Speaker 1: thing tm TM you time management University. Yeah, that will
Speaker 1: not be happening. But that said, you can also do
Speaker 1: different things. So any sort of intellectual property you have
Speaker 1: created can show evidence that you are an expert in something.
Speaker 1: So obviously, writing a book about a topic is a
Speaker 1: way to show that you are an expert in it.
Speaker 1: But a book may kind of be a high first
Speaker 1: barrier to do something, So why don't you start with
Speaker 1: something else, Like you could write a handful of white
Speaker 1: papers on a topic that's you're an expert in in
Speaker 1: your particular profession and see if you can publish those summer,
Speaker 1: whether that's internally for your own organization, if there's some
Speaker 1: sort of internal website for your company that you could
Speaker 1: put those up and share around, or maybe more broadly,
Speaker 1: if there's an industry publication. You can also start your
Speaker 1: own things too, like a blog related to your or
Speaker 1: topic of expertise. If it's something that's more public facing,
Speaker 1: that's probably something you want to do, or start a newsletter.
Speaker 1: These things are far easier to do now than they
Speaker 1: were in the past. Twenty five thirty years ago. If
Speaker 1: you wanted to be an expert and be known for
Speaker 1: your writing on a topic, you kind of had to
Speaker 1: go through existing publications, like you had to get an
Speaker 1: article about you writing about this topic, or you being
Speaker 1: interviewed as an expert on a topic in say Time
Speaker 1: magazine or something like that. And now you can just
Speaker 1: put out your newsletter to the world and if people
Speaker 1: find it interesting, you can become an expert just because
Speaker 1: people are reading you and you didn't have to go
Speaker 1: through any sort of gatekeeper. And obviously there's downsides.
Speaker 2: Which can be a good thing and a bad thing.
Speaker 2: I mean, how many books are like, oh it all
Speaker 2: started when my instapost went viral, and like they just
Speaker 2: hit a nerve and now they're an expert. It's kind
Speaker 2: of interesting to see that sometimes, but hey, yeah.
Speaker 1: But it could work happens, yeah, I mean, and sometimes
Speaker 1: gatekeepers are good because you know, people put newsletters on
Speaker 1: stupid things out there and like, yeah, that's not really expertise,
Speaker 1: that's just something you made up. But when you can
Speaker 1: build up a good following, it's usually because there's at
Speaker 1: least something there. So that's something you might want to
Speaker 1: consider doing as well. And starting that now, other organizations
Speaker 1: and like existing places can give you social proof. We've
Speaker 1: certainly seen this with some of our guests, like somebody
Speaker 1: being like I'm the well with Laura may Martin, like
Speaker 1: I'm the time management expert for Google. It's like, okay, well,
Speaker 1: Google's a big organization, so therefore you have the social
Speaker 1: proof of a big organization saying you were worth paying
Speaker 1: for this. So if you've spoken places, worked places that
Speaker 1: can be helpful, you can collect testimonials. I would suggest
Speaker 1: people start doing this if there are people you've worked
Speaker 1: with who just are willing to do this to give
Speaker 1: a short few sentences about why you are so awesome
Speaker 1: to work with or something you've done that was so amazing.
Speaker 1: Those can be helpful for the future too.
Speaker 2: Totally and I think people don't do it enough. Honestly,
Speaker 2: I don't think i'd ever say note of writing a
Speaker 2: testimonial for something that I had a positive experience about
Speaker 2: and then collecting them can be incredibly valuable. So I say,
Speaker 2: reach out and do that more. And I'm talking partly
Speaker 2: to myself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and also collecting numbers. I mean, numbers can
Speaker 1: be abused, but they at least appear to be objective.
Speaker 1: So anything time you can quantify something you've done, that's
Speaker 1: very easy thing for someone to quote to say that
Speaker 1: you're an expert, Like so, Sarah, you've seen this, So
Speaker 1: I mean with various things.
Speaker 2: Oh definitely. I mean I had to include that in
Speaker 2: my book proposal too, like number of people that have
Speaker 2: gone through my courses, number of people on my newsletter,
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. In the medical world, speaking
Speaker 2: of expertise, surgeons track how many cases they do. And
Speaker 2: I want to give you permission, especially if you were
Speaker 2: a family member is having surgery and it's something like
Speaker 2: a little unusual, like not like an epidectomy, but something
Speaker 2: like more specific, you can feel free to ask your
Speaker 2: surgeon how many of these have you done? Because most
Speaker 2: of them will be proud to give you a good
Speaker 2: number that will make you feel better. And if they're
Speaker 2: like two, then you can maybe find out if okay,
Speaker 2: well someone going to be assisting you or like, think
Speaker 2: about whether that's what you want.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you may not want to be the first, if
Speaker 1: at all possible, and given that, you know, in humanity
Speaker 1: generally people aren't the first. I mean we all have
Speaker 1: some similarities. Finding somebody who's done something a few more
Speaker 1: times might be worth seeking out. So yeah, you can
Speaker 1: try to put numbers one like have you saved an
Speaker 1: organization money by doing X? That tends to be a
Speaker 1: number of people can do? Or how many something your
Speaker 1: direct reports have done? Moving any sort of metric. Anything
Speaker 1: you can come up with is going to be helpful.
Speaker 1: All Right, we're going to take one more quick ad
Speaker 1: break and then we'll be back with more on making
Speaker 1: a name for yourself. Well, we are back talking about
Speaker 1: how to make a name for yourself being known as
Speaker 1: an expert on some topic, maybe not the world's foremost
Speaker 1: expert on something, but even just within your organization, being
Speaker 1: the thing that people always seek you out, that there's
Speaker 1: a reason people come to you for something, and having
Speaker 1: that thing can be very valuable from a career perspective,
Speaker 1: because it's just so much harder to replace someone who
Speaker 1: everyone is seeking out for a particular valuable bit of knowledge.
Speaker 1: As you're building up your expertise in something, it really
Speaker 1: does help to stick with it for at least a
Speaker 1: little while. We see and joke all the time of
Speaker 1: people who have started a podcast and then they do
Speaker 1: like two episodes and I guess they run out of ideas,
Speaker 1: So I guess maybe that wasn't something that they really
Speaker 1: wanted to pursue long term. But when you can, then
Speaker 1: you have time become the secret ingredient that sort of
Speaker 1: builds up the sense like, oh, yeah, I've been doing
Speaker 1: this for three years, That in and of itself provides
Speaker 1: evidence of expertise that being a fly by night kind
Speaker 1: of person doesn't. So, Sarah, you've stuck with blogging for
Speaker 1: twenty years, I mean podcasting for many What has made
Speaker 1: you stick with it in these cases?
Speaker 2: What has made me enable myself to use time as
Speaker 2: a secret ingredient? By the way, whenever I think about
Speaker 2: the number of years, all I can think about, and
Speaker 2: I know we'd well on the negative as humans, is like,
Speaker 2: why did I start my newsletter in like twenty twenty
Speaker 2: three or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as opposed to like twenty twelve. Yes, okay, two
Speaker 1: thousand and five I would have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like cashed out by now. I don't
Speaker 2: even know. Well, I don't know, maybe not, but like
Speaker 2: crazy anyway, So what made me stick with it?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's super super fun, which is why you want to
Speaker 2: And I enjoy writing, I enjoy creating. I found it
Speaker 2: to be a strength. I found it to be something
Speaker 2: that I'm efficient with doing, which makes it doable. And
Speaker 2: I love kind of like the social stuff that's come
Speaker 2: out of it, and just the act of sharing and
Speaker 2: the act of expressing myself in that way. And I
Speaker 2: think that's important to say, because if you don't find
Speaker 2: doing it at least to be like rewarding and generally
Speaker 2: I don't know, like inherently satisfying, then it's as hard
Speaker 2: because I don't want to be like, oh, work has
Speaker 2: to be your passion, you know. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: you're not gonna want to chug away at something for
Speaker 2: twenty years if it's miserable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to find that Venn diagram overlap between
Speaker 1: stuff the world finds useful and stuff you personally enjoy
Speaker 1: and kind of find the sweet spot between where those overlap.
Speaker 1: And I can always tell if people aren't really into it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've given the advice all over the place
Speaker 1: that you should start a blog or start a newsletter
Speaker 1: or something on this topic if you want to be
Speaker 1: known as an expert. And then I'll see the person
Speaker 1: like do it once a week at the exact same
Speaker 1: time every time, Like they're doing one blog post week
Speaker 1: at the exact same time. It's because they put it
Speaker 1: on their to do list that they know they're supposed
Speaker 1: to do it, but they're not that excited about it.
Speaker 1: Whereas when people get into blogging, they start doing it
Speaker 1: like every day they you know, are it happen almost
Speaker 1: it like sometimes random times because they had a little
Speaker 1: bit of free time and they're like, oh, yeah, well
Speaker 1: I'll do a blog post if people want to check
Speaker 1: out Optimistic Musings by the blogger Elizabeth Frost. She started
Speaker 1: blogging a few years ago and she thought she might
Speaker 1: give it a whirl, and she now posts daily and
Speaker 1: has a ton of fun with it, and it gets
Speaker 1: a lot of comments every day. And I think it's
Speaker 1: because she really, really enjoyed it, and so you do
Speaker 1: want to make sure you are doing something that brings
Speaker 1: happiness if you're going to spend your precious time on
Speaker 1: earth doing.
Speaker 2: It totally otherwise find something else.
Speaker 1: But you also don't want to quit prematurely either, because
Speaker 1: there's also going to be some rough moments. So I
Speaker 1: would say, like, if you're saying of starting a podcast,
Speaker 1: make yourself a list of like twenty topics you could
Speaker 1: do an episode on right, because then you will be
Speaker 1: able to keep going. And if you can't generate a
Speaker 1: list of twenty topics, you probably shouldn't start it because
Speaker 1: you won't stick with it. Like they're not going to
Speaker 1: magically come to you. But if you do, you don't
Speaker 1: have to do it forever. Like you can decide I'm
Speaker 1: going to try this out, like I'm going to start
Speaker 1: a new letter on this topic. I am going to
Speaker 1: commit to doing two per week for a year, and
Speaker 1: we will see what comes of it. Now, I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that this is going to provide such amazing, wonderful
Speaker 1: opportunities that you're going to be able to quit your
Speaker 1: job and retire forever if that's what you are looking for,
Speaker 1: But something will come out of it, like you cannot
Speaker 1: put one hundred things on a topic out into the
Speaker 1: universe to some number of people without something happening, right,
Speaker 1: Like this is just an odds matter at this point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right. I actually just heard I
Speaker 2: want a reference. There was a podcast episode by Laura Tremaine,
Speaker 2: who does the podcast Ten Things to Tell You, and
Speaker 2: it's about podcasting specifically, and like advice for starting a podcast.
Speaker 2: She couched it as like what I wish I knew
Speaker 2: when I started mine, and it's like exactly what you
Speaker 2: just said. But she recommended a minimum of three months,
Speaker 2: which I think is a nice window of time because
Speaker 2: that's enough time for you to figure out, Okay, is
Speaker 2: there a learning curve here? Do I enjoy this? Do
Speaker 2: I have enough to talk about? Do I have the
Speaker 2: right topic? But it's not so long that you're committing
Speaker 2: yourself to forever. So pick some kind of reasonable timeframe.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's three months, maybe it's slightly different than that,
Speaker 2: and give it a try if that's something you're interested
Speaker 2: in doing it, And again, does not have to be
Speaker 2: a podcast, could be anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and don't think of it being one off and
Speaker 1: done like you want to give yourself enough runway that
Speaker 1: something could happen. So it's not that you're going to
Speaker 1: write one white paper on this topic and then expect
Speaker 1: everything to come from that. But it could be that
Speaker 1: something comes out of that one white paper that you
Speaker 1: have another one you're gonna write, and if you commit
Speaker 1: to doing let's say six over the course of the
Speaker 1: year for this industry publication, like something's gonna come of
Speaker 1: that too. Like it's impossible to put like that much
Speaker 1: out there and not have something come back, Which leads
Speaker 1: us to our last part of making a name for
Speaker 1: yourself is being open to opportunity, Like if cool things
Speaker 1: do come to you, you want to maybe pursue them, Like,
Speaker 1: be open to doing that. I mean, Sarah, I know
Speaker 1: you do try to say yes to stuff like this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I definitely say yes more than
Speaker 2: I say no. I mean that's how the book is.
Speaker 2: I've always wanted to do it, but it was more
Speaker 2: about like kind of like someone was like, hey, send
Speaker 2: me this, and I was like, you know what, Yes,
Speaker 2: let me try. I know I might fail, but it's
Speaker 2: certainly worth a try. Same with speaking engagement I have
Speaker 2: coming up that I think is going to be really fun.
Speaker 2: It was a little outside of what I've done before,
Speaker 2: and someone was like, just submit an application, and I did,
Speaker 2: and you know, there was some imposter syndrome like do
Speaker 2: I belong here, Am I an expert, et cetera. But
Speaker 2: I just got past it and now I'm like super
Speaker 2: excited to go. So I do think it's not always
Speaker 2: a yes. Sometimes you also have a gut feeling that
Speaker 2: it should be a no, And I think you should
Speaker 2: listen to that there, But at the same time, make
Speaker 2: sure it's not your self doubt that's causing the note.
Speaker 2: It has to be more like no, this is a key,
Speaker 2: I don't like it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm doing something a little email newsletter side gig
Speaker 1: right now on something I'm calling the Yes Quest. So
Speaker 1: I put out to my newsletter list did people want
Speaker 1: to sign up for this yes Quest? And I've just
Speaker 1: been sending like two emails a week encouraging people to
Speaker 1: say yes to some random things. Now, I'm not talking
Speaker 1: about yes to something that seems burdensome or like I
Speaker 1: really don't want to do it. But if it's a
Speaker 1: yes to something that you're kind of talking yourself out of, right, like, well,
Speaker 1: I guess I could go out to dinner with those
Speaker 1: people who sound fascinating, But you know what if I'm
Speaker 1: home late to like, what if that means that I'm
Speaker 1: not doing the laundry that night. I you know, it's
Speaker 1: just like you're talking yourself out of it. That's often
Speaker 1: a sign that you do want to do it, and
Speaker 1: then you're just trying to be practical. So I would
Speaker 1: encourage people to say yes to things like that, because
Speaker 1: you never know where it's going to lead. You know,
Speaker 1: it's the things you're talking yourself into that you probably
Speaker 1: want to say no to. If you're sitting there saying, well,
Speaker 1: it's probably going to be good for my career and
Speaker 1: maybe if I want to live abroad long term, this
Speaker 1: is something I should experiment. Just like no, if you're
Speaker 1: talking yourself into it, you don't want to do it.
Speaker 1: Those are not the kinds of yeses we really want
Speaker 1: to do. It's the ones where you're t fucking yourself
Speaker 1: out of So try things out, Reserve some time for
Speaker 1: things that might come up. If your schedule is absolutely packed,
Speaker 1: you won't be willing to take on something new. If
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, could you give a talk on
Speaker 1: this topic that you find fascinating to this group that
Speaker 1: could be interesting, but you're like, oh, but I'm so
Speaker 1: pressed with these deadlines that work, there's no way I
Speaker 1: can do that. That's where you don't get those opportunities.
Speaker 1: So you want to make sure you have some space,
Speaker 1: and you can also create communities of people to sort
Speaker 1: of help bring opportunities to you. I mean, Sarah, I
Speaker 1: know you've connected with other people in various podcasting and
Speaker 1: blogging worlds.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, and I like it when it comes
Speaker 2: kind of organically. I mean sometimes it's more orchestrated like
Speaker 2: our Patriot or things like that which I've met amazing
Speaker 2: people through, or best laid plans a live and then
Speaker 2: other times it's just like someone emails and you meet
Speaker 2: up and you just say yes, and you know, you
Speaker 2: see where the connection leads.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So if there's other people who seem to be
Speaker 1: experts in this topic that you are aiming to be
Speaker 1: experts in, see if you can collaborate on something, or
Speaker 1: see if you can meet up and have some sort
Speaker 1: of check in every quarter or something like that. It's
Speaker 1: a way to get yourself part of that community. And
Speaker 1: when you are part of a community of experts, you
Speaker 1: become seen more as an expert yourself just by virtue
Speaker 1: of being associated with other people who are also experts
Speaker 1: in something. Yes, that is true, all right, So lots
Speaker 1: of different ideas on way to make a name for yourself.
Speaker 1: Hopefully some of this has been useful even if you
Speaker 1: are not planning on starting a blogger podcast, but you
Speaker 1: just want to be known as the expert on a
Speaker 1: particular area in your profession. Maybe some things that might
Speaker 1: be helpful as you plan to do that. So today's
Speaker 1: question Sarah, As we are coming up for people's spring breaks,
Speaker 1: this listener writes in, it's not really in the cards
Speaker 1: to go somewhere cool this year for spring break. I'll
Speaker 1: probably be working for most of it. How can I
Speaker 1: make sure this is still a somewhat fun time for
Speaker 1: the kids and for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so definitely have been that boat before, especially because
Speaker 2: my kids spring breaks don't actually line up very well
Speaker 2: right now, so it's not our peak traveling time. So
Speaker 2: I definitely think camps can be helpful, especially if you
Speaker 2: have well, I mean, it sounds like you're working, so
Speaker 2: you may need some kind of childcare anyway, and looking
Speaker 2: for specialty camps like maybe something a little bit different,
Speaker 2: if different sports venues or art places or something. A
Speaker 2: lot of them are opportunistic these days, and they're smart.
Speaker 2: They offer like camps during breaks for you to sign
Speaker 2: up and get childcare there, so considering that can make
Speaker 2: it more fun for the kids, and maybe doing it
Speaker 2: with a friend would be even better. Treating your area
Speaker 2: like a tourist and doing like a real staycation, like
Speaker 2: maybe everybody writes down ideas and then you pull everything
Speaker 2: together and let the kids each pick one out. Even
Speaker 2: movies can be a nice relaxing thing to do during
Speaker 2: a staycation, just because we don't have time to do
Speaker 2: that kind of a thing during the day otherwise. And
Speaker 2: then I definitely think banding with others can be helpful.
Speaker 2: You're probably not the only one staying home, so finding
Speaker 2: out if anybody else wants to do a kid swap
Speaker 2: or a big group outing could add some fun to
Speaker 2: your days.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, definitely think about the camp options. I've
Speaker 1: seen ones to advertise from everything from like a climbing
Speaker 1: gym to karate to art studios. There's definitely some stuff
Speaker 1: out there if you live in a reasonably sized community.
Speaker 1: But if your kids are even slightly older but not
Speaker 1: old enough to sort of you know, you don't want
Speaker 1: to just have them fending for themselves for the entire week.
Speaker 1: If you have an occasional sitter who might have some availability,
Speaker 1: you could have that person take them somewhere for a
Speaker 1: day or two, right like if the weather is nicer
Speaker 1: for spring break. I mean, they could go to an
Speaker 1: amusement park if one happens to be open, or go
Speaker 1: to like a further away trampoline park or something like
Speaker 1: that for several hours and make a day trip of it.
Speaker 1: I think you could also definitely have the mindset of
Speaker 1: one big adventure, one little adventure. You could go somewhere
Speaker 1: over the weekends on either side of spring break. It
Speaker 1: could be an overnight trip, it doesn't have to be.
Speaker 1: You could do a day trip on say both of
Speaker 1: those saturdays, and that would still be something memorable. And
Speaker 1: then maybe two evenings during the week you all do
Speaker 1: something that you wouldn't normally do. I mean, you go
Speaker 1: to an indoor pool at night, or you go out
Speaker 1: to how I'll have dinner at food trucks that are
Speaker 1: part somewhere. I mean, you could come up with something
Speaker 1: that would be adventurous and would make the time memorable,
Speaker 1: because that's really what you're getting at with traveling somewhere
Speaker 1: over spring break too, is like making memories. So what
Speaker 1: can you do to make memories even if the memories
Speaker 1: are where you are and you are working forty hours
Speaker 1: that week?
Speaker 2: I love it? All right, love of the week?
Speaker 1: All right? Well, I would suggest that people do check
Speaker 1: out Dori Clark's books on personal branding. Her books stand
Speaker 1: Out definitely has a lot of great information on that
Speaker 1: and I enjoyed reading it, So that could be my
Speaker 1: love of the week.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to go with one that I didn't
Speaker 2: realize was so controversial.
Speaker 1: What is it?
Speaker 2: Thin mints that are from the freezer? What do you
Speaker 2: have against I don't have any.
Speaker 1: Well, I was always, as a Girl Scout sort of
Speaker 1: mystified why thin mints were the most popular. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I feel like it's not really that exciting of a cookie,
Speaker 1: and yet they would always be like thirty to forty
Speaker 1: percent of the sales. Right. I was a pretty good
Speaker 1: Girl Scouts cookie salesperson, so we're talking to some serious
Speaker 1: volume here, and those were always a higher percentage than
Speaker 1: I would give them based on how they taste, and
Speaker 1: then I found out people are putting them in the freezer,
Speaker 1: and I just don't understand, Like what it tastes like
Speaker 1: a cold thin min? Like what does that do for you?
Speaker 2: It gets the chocolate shell to have like a crispier texture,
Speaker 2: and it's just amazing. Room temperature thin min's don't quite
Speaker 2: do it for me, but like freezer thin min's amazing.
Speaker 1: Love them, okay, all right, Well to each her own.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying they're bad. I'm not saying they would
Speaker 1: be my love of the week though. All right, well,
Speaker 1: good thing we each get th We get our own
Speaker 1: love of the week.
Speaker 2: More thin mian's for me, all right, more thinmans for you?
Speaker 1: All right? Well, this has been best of both worlds.
Speaker 1: We've been talking about how to make a name for yourself.
Speaker 1: We will be back next week with more on making
Speaker 1: work and life fit together.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
Speaker 2: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,
Speaker 2: and you.
Speaker 3: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
Speaker 3: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join
Speaker 3: us next time for more on making work and life
Speaker 3: work together.