1
00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:07,560
Speaker 1: Everybody seems so jubilant that we were closing a chapter

2
00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:09,319
Speaker 1: in a really bad time in our lives. They were

3
00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:15,800
Speaker 1: so happy. Melissa Daboor can finally exhale because Rodney Lincoln

4
00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,080
Speaker 1: has been sentenced to two life terms plus fifteen years.

5
00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,680
Speaker 1: He's been convicted for the murder of her mother, Joe

6
00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,800
Speaker 1: and Tate, and the vicious attacks on her and her

7
00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,160
Speaker 1: little sister. I knew my family was ready to move on,

8
00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:37,720
Speaker 1: so I kept going, but I was always scared. I

9
00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,639
Speaker 1: was always looking in like the alleys and the shadows

10
00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:51,400
Speaker 1: and around the corners. I couldn't put into words. Why

11
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:57,760
Speaker 1: I'm Leah Rothman. This is the real Killer, Episode four

12
00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:22,679
Speaker 1: Life Imprisoned. Yeah, starting route to proceed to Rutger Street,

13
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:29,679
Speaker 1: then turn right. If at any point we're driving around

14
00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,839
Speaker 1: and you don't feel comfortable, you've got to tell me, Okay,

15
00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 1: I will make a LEFTFI left you because that's my school. Yeah,

16
00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:44,280
Speaker 1: so goodness, So this is your school. Yeah, this is

17
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:50,120
Speaker 1: my school and they have not changed the fence. This

18
00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,440
Speaker 1: was right here where like our classes came out down

19
00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,160
Speaker 1: here to come out for recess. Over on that side

20
00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 1: was where a girl friend tim in the stomach for

21
00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,040
Speaker 1: kissing her brother a cheep. Oh god, it's so eerie.

22
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,679
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, we would look through this path.

23
00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:16,160
Speaker 1: I walked out with my mom. What what does it

24
00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,119
Speaker 1: feel like to be back in this neighborhood like I'm

25
00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,440
Speaker 1: with my mom and my family like they've never left.

26
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:29,280
Speaker 1: That's Melissa da Bore today. With her permission. She's showing

27
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,800
Speaker 1: me around her old neighborhood of Hyde Park on the

28
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,000
Speaker 1: north side of St. Louis. Where should you where my

29
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,920
Speaker 1: grandma lived? Oh my gosh, I can't make it right.

30
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:42,560
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. We're on Melon crop right now. My

31
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,840
Speaker 1: aunt Abbie and my grandma lived on this street. Um

32
00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,120
Speaker 1: at one time. This house with a blue trim on

33
00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:55,519
Speaker 1: the bricks, grays trim, that's my grandma's house. And then

34
00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,959
Speaker 1: is that the church at Holy Trinity Catholic Church. Yes, okay,

35
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 1: you're gonna go up here to make it right. That's

36
00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,400
Speaker 1: the alley where my house was. Yep, that's the alley.

37
00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,600
Speaker 1: Do you feel comfortable? Do you want to? Let's do it.

38
00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,560
Speaker 1: This is the alle in our house was right here.

39
00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:21,000
Speaker 1: Let's see here. Yep, I tore my house town it

40
00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,639
Speaker 1: was right here. This is where the house was. The

41
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,960
Speaker 1: house the house was right here. Yep, I remember this.

42
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,760
Speaker 1: I have dreams about this right here. What kind of

43
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,200
Speaker 1: dreams like that? I'm walking up with my mom and

44
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,360
Speaker 1: my grandma and we're going down there for a church fair.

45
00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,360
Speaker 1: It seems like everything you needed was right in your neighborhoods,

46
00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,280
Speaker 1: your family, your school, your church, and I was rupped

47
00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:57,000
Speaker 1: away back in. Melissa is eight years old, her mom

48
00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,480
Speaker 1: is gone. The trials are over, and doing with the

49
00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:05,120
Speaker 1: aftermath isn't easy, especially at school. I have to have

50
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,320
Speaker 1: a cost to me back because you know, my coal

51
00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,600
Speaker 1: and my anus, none of that was working. It was awful.

52
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,360
Speaker 1: The cost of my bag poked out underneath my clothes.

53
00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:25,040
Speaker 1: Sometimes I smelled. I was still very traumatized. The teachers

54
00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,359
Speaker 1: didn't really know how to deal with it. I felt

55
00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:34,760
Speaker 1: very isolated. Rernie was very quiet, but when she wasn't quiet,

56
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,320
Speaker 1: she was prone to rage and fits. Renee tended to

57
00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,560
Speaker 1: lash out where I tended to turn my anger inward.

58
00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,239
Speaker 1: But there is some joy in their world. Their aunt

59
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:51,560
Speaker 1: Rachel Clenny. My aunt Rachel was my favorite aunt. She

60
00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,720
Speaker 1: was a sunny fron personality. She was artsy, she was

61
00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,760
Speaker 1: an adventurer or love to travel. She was a photographer,

62
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:05,280
Speaker 1: and she indulged me in my passions and whims and

63
00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:10,520
Speaker 1: she got us when Mama died, and Aunt Rachel, it

64
00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,480
Speaker 1: seems like life had the possibility of being normal with her.

65
00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:20,239
Speaker 1: So you and Renee go, we can live with Rachel

66
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,279
Speaker 1: and her husband, a man she met and married just

67
00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,200
Speaker 1: for us to get custody of us. They wouldn't give

68
00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,800
Speaker 1: us to her if she were single, a man the

69
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:37,680
Speaker 1: girls do not like. And then Rachel's seems to change

70
00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,640
Speaker 1: after having her first child. I went from seeing my

71
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,320
Speaker 1: happy aunt, my fun aunt, someone that had a lot

72
00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:50,880
Speaker 1: of migraines, and someone who would lose her temper really quickly,

73
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,080
Speaker 1: very moody. A couple of years later, and a couple

74
00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,560
Speaker 1: of months after Rachel has her second child, tragedy strikes

75
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 1: their flee again. Rachel has a cerebral hemorrhage. Melissa and

76
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,200
Speaker 1: Renee are not prepared for what Rachel's husband tells them

77
00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,560
Speaker 1: when they arrive at the hospital. I see my and

78
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,640
Speaker 1: Rachel hooked up to all these machines. She's not moving,

79
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,560
Speaker 1: he said, take a look at her, because you two

80
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:28,760
Speaker 1: did this to her. You two killed her. You drove

81
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:35,000
Speaker 1: her so crazy her brain blew up and I believed him.

82
00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,680
Speaker 1: I believed him, and morn I just couldn't understand she's

83
00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,760
Speaker 1: like I did. I did what. The girls lose their

84
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:49,440
Speaker 1: aunt Rachel five years after losing their mom, and then

85
00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,440
Speaker 1: a month later, a few days after my birthday, my

86
00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,240
Speaker 1: uncle married this young woman and that's when he started.

87
00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:04,080
Speaker 1: I'd be to see me and my sister for three years.

88
00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,800
Speaker 1: Melissa says she is sexually and physically abused by her

89
00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 1: uncle Rachel's husband, but she says it's the mental abuse

90
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:17,640
Speaker 1: that's almost harder to endure. Brain watched both of us

91
00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,000
Speaker 1: to think that we were worthless and stupid and in

92
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:29,440
Speaker 1: an um inherently evil um doom people just flawed and

93
00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,160
Speaker 1: worthless and hangers on. One day, he u accused me

94
00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,600
Speaker 1: of doing something I did not do, and he slept

95
00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:43,680
Speaker 1: me across the face full of band and he said

96
00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 1: get out of my house. And he took his wife

97
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,880
Speaker 1: and his kids and left me in Renee at the house.

98
00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,240
Speaker 1: In the moment he left, I told Renee, pacabag, We're

99
00:07:55,280 --> 00:08:02,400
Speaker 1: getting out of here. The girls, now fifteen and thirteen,

100
00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,080
Speaker 1: bounce around to other family members before Uncle Natt and

101
00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,840
Speaker 1: Aunt Lorie agree to take them in living with Uncle

102
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:15,920
Speaker 1: Nat mayl Laurie was so much fun. This is Meisa

103
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:25,840
Speaker 1: cleaning a room. Loves a lifetime. Lisa, what do you

104
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:34,520
Speaker 1: that filming you cleaning your room? God, this is once

105
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:39,440
Speaker 1: a lifetime. Look at this. M Oh my god. I

106
00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,360
Speaker 1: was allowed to wear hairspray and use eyeliner and be

107
00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:49,400
Speaker 1: a typical teenager. I had never felt so free. Not

108
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:54,560
Speaker 1: only that they indulged by music, love Swede, French Jacket,

109
00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:59,600
Speaker 1: heavy metal. I went from having zero freedom I couldn't

110
00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,839
Speaker 1: even sit next to a boy on the bus, to

111
00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 1: being trusted and give from the freedom to be who

112
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,760
Speaker 1: I was. They were young people who had never had

113
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,760
Speaker 1: any kids, a lot of trial and error. Here are

114
00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,920
Speaker 1: Nat and Laurie Again, Lori and I were just kids ourselves.

115
00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,200
Speaker 1: Remember Not and Lourie are only ten years older than Melissa.

116
00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,040
Speaker 1: At first, it was okay, we had to have a

117
00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,360
Speaker 1: lot of trouble out of her knee. But Melissa seemed

118
00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,400
Speaker 1: like she was just disrespecting Lorie. It seemed like it

119
00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,400
Speaker 1: just got worse like Nat. Like Nat put it to me,

120
00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,520
Speaker 1: he said, Melissa was like a caged lion. She wasn't

121
00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,920
Speaker 1: allowed to go anywhere or have any friends. At school

122
00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,320
Speaker 1: and home, that was it. Well, when she came to

123
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,800
Speaker 1: live with us, she got her freedom. She got her freedom.

124
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,240
Speaker 1: And you know, you let a cat out of a cage,

125
00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,320
Speaker 1: it's gonna go everywhere and want to do everything and

126
00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,800
Speaker 1: be very rebellious. Well, and along would be in fifteen,

127
00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,000
Speaker 1: know it all. Nobody can tell you anything. Things get

128
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,439
Speaker 1: worse from there, and after a year and a half

129
00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:14,479
Speaker 1: they asked Melissa to leave. I can't really blame him.

130
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,719
Speaker 1: With kids that are traumatized, you can only deal with

131
00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,880
Speaker 1: so much. We really didn't come with a handbook. So

132
00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,559
Speaker 1: when I went to live with Abbey and I went

133
00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,840
Speaker 1: to live with my older sister, and then it seemed light.

134
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,160
Speaker 1: From then on, I couldn't really see Renee that often.

135
00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:40,320
Speaker 1: It's so um heartbreaking to think that you lose your mom,

136
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:45,160
Speaker 1: you lose your second mom in Rachel, and then you're

137
00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:50,360
Speaker 1: separated by the person who shared was shared everything. I

138
00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,920
Speaker 1: never had to explain anything to Renee. We were polar opposites,

139
00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:01,640
Speaker 1: but we understood just over and over again. I thought

140
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:06,360
Speaker 1: I'd landed in a safe place. There is no safe place,

141
00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:13,360
Speaker 1: because there was like a war in my head at

142
00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,800
Speaker 1: nineteen on a whim Melissa and enrolls in the Navy

143
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,880
Speaker 1: and as sent to the Naval Training Center in San Diego,

144
00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,080
Speaker 1: a world away and a welcomed escape from St. Louis

145
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,680
Speaker 1: and all the trauma of her past. It turns out

146
00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,160
Speaker 1: to be her best decision yet, and it's in this

147
00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:36,680
Speaker 1: new life she finds something she's really good at. It

148
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:43,720
Speaker 1: was a merge of information technology and intelligence. I picked

149
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,640
Speaker 1: up the information technology easily. I picked up the secrecy

150
00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,720
Speaker 1: easily because I had learned early in my life keep

151
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:56,760
Speaker 1: things to myself. And Melissa finds something else, love with

152
00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,679
Speaker 1: a naval officer fresh out of boot camp. After dating

153
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,319
Speaker 1: only a couple of months, they marry and a year

154
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:09,120
Speaker 1: and a half later welcome a daughter, Jackie, But in

155
00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,720
Speaker 1: they divorce. Melissa and her daughter moved back to St.

156
00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,320
Speaker 1: Louis and she gets a job with a contractor for

157
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:22,040
Speaker 1: the Department of Defense. The clearance that I was required

158
00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,040
Speaker 1: to have was top secret and above, and I had

159
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,360
Speaker 1: an above top secret clearance. I was more successful than

160
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 1: I had ever been. I had proven a lot of

161
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,480
Speaker 1: people wrong about what I could do. But that's when

162
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:44,360
Speaker 1: my PTSD showed its first symptoms depression, severe anxiety, UM

163
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,600
Speaker 1: always watching behind my back. I didn't feel safe. I

164
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,280
Speaker 1: started to have really severe episodes of sleeping problems where

165
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,520
Speaker 1: I was hallucinating what I dreamed about. I was waking

166
00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,040
Speaker 1: up putting my daughter in the bathtub because I thought

167
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,760
Speaker 1: our tornado was on me. I called the police in

168
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,240
Speaker 1: my sleep because I thought a burglar was trying to

169
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,160
Speaker 1: get in. But it was turning into something very dangerous

170
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,440
Speaker 1: because my brain could not ascertain reality for my dream,

171
00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,560
Speaker 1: I was running from scary people and in fear of

172
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:25,280
Speaker 1: my life. Rodney Lincoln goes into prison a thirty eight

173
00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,920
Speaker 1: year old man. He'll start serving his time at the

174
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:35,240
Speaker 1: Missouri State Penitentiary, also known as the Walls. At that time,

175
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:40,520
Speaker 1: it was known that the bloodiest Booty seven acos in America,

176
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,080
Speaker 1: and they lived up to their name. Although Rodney has

177
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:51,600
Speaker 1: been incarcerated before, this time is very different. First ten

178
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,160
Speaker 1: years would well with the case I had. I was

179
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,480
Speaker 1: an immediate outcast because you've been convicted of hurting children.

180
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,959
Speaker 1: I was a child my left dude. People do want

181
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,920
Speaker 1: associate with me? Do you want to talk to me?

182
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,400
Speaker 1: A lot of them wanted to hurt me? Were you

183
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:18,920
Speaker 1: physically threatened? Often? Many times? Uh basing a cap several times.

184
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,440
Speaker 1: I can honestly say that I've never taken the life

185
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:28,640
Speaker 1: of any warning food. But there was times when I

186
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,560
Speaker 1: had to leave stores. I got to the point where

187
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,720
Speaker 1: and you shouted, I was gonna let him kill me.

188
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:41,280
Speaker 1: I was gonna like that jobra like that. Let me

189
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,080
Speaker 1: ask you, when you first came in, did you feel

190
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:49,640
Speaker 1: like you needed to join any group to stay protected.

191
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:55,640
Speaker 1: I was rejected by those groups the because what group

192
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,240
Speaker 1: would have it would have been like the White Aryan nation,

193
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:04,040
Speaker 1: right right? And you know what, they hate moving anything,

194
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:16,360
Speaker 1: John molestudes. While Rodney fights day in and day out

195
00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,800
Speaker 1: to stay alive on the inside, it's who's on the

196
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:24,280
Speaker 1: outside that gives him the strength to keep going. His family,

197
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:31,440
Speaker 1: especially his daughter Ka. My dad, even after he was arrested,

198
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,720
Speaker 1: after he was in prison two hundred miles away behind

199
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,680
Speaker 1: brick walls, was still an effective parent. I was thirteen

200
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,760
Speaker 1: years old when he was arrested, and we still maintained

201
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,840
Speaker 1: the same relationship that we did before he left. I

202
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,080
Speaker 1: wrote to him. If I had a problem, I talked

203
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 1: to my dad about it. If I needed advice, I

204
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,520
Speaker 1: asked my dad for it. You think you can get

205
00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,160
Speaker 1: anything by old day well, no, he's still going to

206
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,120
Speaker 1: be a parent when he needs to be, you know,

207
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,320
Speaker 1: have that strict hand. I when I was sixteen years old,

208
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,720
Speaker 1: I ran away from home and the first thing my

209
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,800
Speaker 1: mom did was write a letter to my dad. I

210
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,160
Speaker 1: wrote him and told him where I was. He wrote

211
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:13,760
Speaker 1: me back and he said, I'm not going to tell

212
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,520
Speaker 1: you you have to go home, but you have to

213
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,600
Speaker 1: call your mom and let her know you're okay. And

214
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:24,280
Speaker 1: I was like, okay. My dad was always a very

215
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,720
Speaker 1: heavy presence in my life, even when he couldn't physically

216
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:32,000
Speaker 1: be there. Do you have any of your letters that

217
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,320
Speaker 1: your dad wrote you well in prison? I do, see

218
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,240
Speaker 1: here's one. Yeah, this was from May of and then

219
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,520
Speaker 1: it he says, Honey, I miss you too. Hopefully I

220
00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,360
Speaker 1: will be able to get out of this mess within

221
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,880
Speaker 1: a few years, and I will try to be a

222
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,920
Speaker 1: better father in the future than I have in the past.

223
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,000
Speaker 1: What do you think when you read that? Pisces me off?

224
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,800
Speaker 1: This is a later one, dearest, kay, Hi, honey, just

225
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,320
Speaker 1: a few words to say hello. Okay. I often tell

226
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,359
Speaker 1: you I love you, and I truly do. But what

227
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,920
Speaker 1: I don't tell you nearly enough is thank you. Thank

228
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,880
Speaker 1: you for being such a caring and loving person. Thank

229
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:17,880
Speaker 1: you for being the daughter that makes me the proudest

230
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,560
Speaker 1: father in the world. Thank you for believing in me

231
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,040
Speaker 1: when it was unbelievably hard. Thank you for loving me.

232
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,359
Speaker 1: What kind of world does a dad have to thank

233
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:34,280
Speaker 1: his daughter for believing in them. My dad never lied

234
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,199
Speaker 1: me in all my life. I mean, he may have

235
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,000
Speaker 1: told me some things that I didn't want to hear her,

236
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 1: but he didn't lie. And for him to say he

237
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,320
Speaker 1: didn't do it, I never questioned it. I never once

238
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,199
Speaker 1: had the thought, oh, maybe he did do it. But

239
00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:56,040
Speaker 1: Kay's younger sister Kelly, wasn't always as sure. There was

240
00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:01,280
Speaker 1: one point in my teenagers, after all of his appeals

241
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 1: had been done, well did he good? He? And I

242
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,040
Speaker 1: think that was just me wanting to distance myself from it.

243
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,600
Speaker 1: And I don't think I ever really thought he did it,

244
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,400
Speaker 1: But there was one point where I was questioning it.

245
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,360
Speaker 1: And it wasn't so much about him. It was if

246
00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,560
Speaker 1: he did do it, am I capable of doing that

247
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 1: because I'm his daughter. There were times that I didn't

248
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,960
Speaker 1: want him to be my dad, and I would even

249
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,200
Speaker 1: pretend that he wasn't if people would bring up, oh,

250
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 1: that's not my dad. I remember I was angry at

251
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,720
Speaker 1: my dad because he left, even though it wasn't his choice.

252
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,760
Speaker 1: I didn't quite understand that, and so I was mad

253
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,520
Speaker 1: at him. Did he know you were mad at him? Um,

254
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if he actually knew I was mad

255
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,159
Speaker 1: at him. I know that he knew. I had a

256
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,439
Speaker 1: lot of confusion about it, and for a long time

257
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,479
Speaker 1: I had I really didn't have a relationship with him.

258
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,199
Speaker 1: I mean when he would call, like on holidays and

259
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,400
Speaker 1: the phone got passed around, I would talk to him,

260
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,479
Speaker 1: but it was always very superficial. You know, Yeah, I'm

261
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,520
Speaker 1: doing good. How are you? Yeah? I love you. I

262
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,119
Speaker 1: love you too, you know. But I never made a

263
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,840
Speaker 1: point to reach out to him, even though he still

264
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:22,960
Speaker 1: continued to reach out to me all the time. UM,

265
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,960
Speaker 1: he would write me letters, get no response back. And

266
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:34,720
Speaker 1: that went on for over a decade beginning in Then

267
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,560
Speaker 1: every five years after Rodney goes up for parole, he's

268
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 1: denied every time. So time is going by, right, And

269
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,960
Speaker 1: have you resigned yourself to the fact that this is

270
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,639
Speaker 1: going to be the rest of your life. One of

271
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:59,480
Speaker 1: the questions that I was asking hl you ever thought

272
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:05,120
Speaker 1: about suicide totally guy. I think anybody with heavy time, yes,

273
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 1: have you I got heavy time? You shadd feel suicidal?

274
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:22,879
Speaker 1: I say, you know, nobody in utual loads me. I do. Beside.

275
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 1: My focus was I had to put up with it

276
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:32,800
Speaker 1: until I get out. Then, on June five, two, three,

277
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,720
Speaker 1: twenty one years after Joanne's murder, an announcement from the St.

278
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 1: Louis Circuit Attorney's office on the evening News, the elected

279
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,919
Speaker 1: Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce has started a justice project, basically

280
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 1: a conviction integrity Unit, which will be led by Assistant

281
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:55,400
Speaker 1: Circuit Attorney at Pistaco. Of the fourteen hundred cases they've

282
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 1: been looking at where innocence or guilt could be proven

283
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:03,679
Speaker 1: with a DNA review, they've narrowed the undred down to six.

284
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 1: That evening, Ka goes to her mom's house. I walk

285
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,120
Speaker 1: in my mom's door and she goes, your dad may

286
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 1: be home soon. They just showed his picture on the

287
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,200
Speaker 1: news and said that they're doing a DNA review and

288
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 1: they're reviewing six cases and his is one of them.

289
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 1: I said, Mom, you're crazy. So they're never going to

290
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:32,640
Speaker 1: let him out. A week later, on June twelve, I'm

291
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 1: at work and I just had this really uneasy feeling

292
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 1: all evening, just didn't know what it was. And when

293
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: I left work, I look at my phone and I've

294
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 1: got phone calls and text messages from like what is

295
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: going on? Melissa had been on the news and she complained.

296
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,199
Speaker 1: She contacted them and they went and interviewed her, and

297
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 1: she said, I don't need a DNA review. I know

298
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 1: it was him. Melissa goes public with her strong opposition

299
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,880
Speaker 1: to the review, but k is not about to let

300
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,119
Speaker 1: her be the only voice out there, so she reaches

301
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 1: out to the same station and the following week, Rodney

302
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: and Kay are interviewed. This does not sit well with Melissa.

303
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: That very same day, Melissa puts pen to paper. I

304
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that Rodney could not move about

305
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: the president with freedom. So I wrote a letter to him,

306
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: and I wrote all his charges all over the exterior

307
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 1: of this envelope. I knew it would be seen by

308
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 1: the mail worn personnel. I knew it passed her several hands.

309
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,719
Speaker 1: People talk, Oh God, I wrote baby rapist, I wrote

310
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:59,679
Speaker 1: woman killer, I wrote predator, and it covered the holiver.

311
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure Rodney never felt at this

312
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: piece because I didn't. I wanted him to look over

313
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 1: his shoulder and look at people like with a suspicious eye.

314
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 1: I really felt that he needed to know the life

315
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: that I knew. Did you want harm to come to him?

316
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 1: I didn't want it to come, but I wasn't opposed

317
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: to it, and Melissa doesn't stop there. I was so

318
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 1: angry and resentful and went after his daughter and the media.

319
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 1: I said that Kay was very impressionable, that she was

320
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: um misinformed, that she was gullible, and she was a fool.

321
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: It was a nice little assortment of words to imply

322
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 1: that she had reduced intelligence and a lack of critical thinking.

323
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: It was ruthless. I was very adamant Rodney killed my mom,

324
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 1: that he tried to kill me and my sister, and uh,

325
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: I was mad that anybody questioned my judgment. On April fourth,

326
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 1: two thousand four, assistant Circuit attorney at Pistacco, who had

327
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: been leading the review of Rodney's case, says there's no

328
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:26,719
Speaker 1: relevant evidence that would provide conclusive proof of innocence or guilt.

329
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: The fingernail scrapings could not be located, and the hair

330
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 1: found on the blanket which was used at trial to

331
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: convict Rodney. Well, now they say it doesn't provide conclusive

332
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:44,479
Speaker 1: proof of anything. Kay has questions, lots of questions. Forget

333
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: the fact that they closed the review. If they thought

334
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 1: that her dad's case was worthy of a review in

335
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: the first place, there must be something there. And now

336
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: she wants to review the case herself. But out of

337
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 1: the gate, Ka hits a brick wall. It started out

338
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: by them telling me they couldn't find the transcripts transcripts

339
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: from the first trial that is, so she gets the

340
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 1: transcripts from the second trial and dives right in. I

341
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: was just so taken aback and so shocked by what

342
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 1: I was reading. And the more I read, the more

343
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: I want. So I'm like, okay, I need the police reports.

344
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: So I requested the police reports. I read these police

345
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: reports and I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.

346
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: And then I'm like, okay, I need more information. I

347
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: want this lineup photo. And I saw that lineup photo

348
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: and I was just like, You've got to be kidding me.

349
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: And then I read so that there were depositions being taken.

350
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: So I'm like, I don't have depositions. I need depositions.

351
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: So I went back to the court, and every time

352
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: I'd get something new, I'd find something else that didn't

353
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: add up. How can they do this? And I honestly

354
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: just kept digging. I spent entire days at the library,

355
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: pulling up old newspapers on microfilm and reading the news reports.

356
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: And I would take a notebook and I would I

357
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: see a name, and I'd write it down, and then

358
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: I'd go do people searches and try to find these people.

359
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: And I knew nothing about investigating. I knew nothing about researching.

360
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: I winged it, and you just you dig, you dig, dig, dig, dig, dig,

361
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 1: and you keep doing whatever it takes to find the

362
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: information you need to have. I had amassed so much

363
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: information and so much evidence that I never was privy

364
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: to you before that. I was just dumbfounded by the

365
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: things I had found, things like what had been going

366
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: on with Rodney's defense attorney, Robert Hampy in between the

367
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: first trial ending in the second trial starting. Robert Hampy

368
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 1: was being investigated himself for his participation in a money

369
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: laundering scheme, and the person who he was in business

370
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: with had actually decided to cooperate with the police. And

371
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 1: the very day that my dad's second trial started. This

372
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: person who was cooperating and was planning to testify against

373
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: Robert Hampy was found murdered in Illinois, so he had

374
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: that whole thing going on. At the same time that

375
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: he was defending my father in court, he was being investigated.

376
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 1: Armed with thousands of pages of police reports, trial transcripts,

377
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: and depositions. K makes a promise she intends to keep.

378
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: I told ed Postacco, this isn't over. I'm not done,

379
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: and I set out to find somebody who knew about

380
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. So I just started looking for lawyers and

381
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: researching wrongful convictions in Missouri and reading about different wrongful

382
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: convictions that had been turned over or that we're being litigated.

383
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: And I kept seeing the name Steve Weinberg, Steve Weinberg,

384
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: Stave Weinberg, Stay Weinberg, Stay Weinberg. So I who is

385
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: the Steve Weinberg. Steve Weinberg's resume is extensive and impressive,

386
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: but if I have to reduce it down to one sentence,

387
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: here goes. He's an accomplished investigative journalist, author of ten

388
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: books and dozens of major magazine articles. Emeritus Professor of

389
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: Journalism at the University of Missouri, former executive director of

390
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: the Investigative Reporters and Editors nonprofit organization, and the founder

391
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: of the Midwest Innocence Project. And this is my biased opinion.

392
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: Maybe it's because I was a journalism major, but Steve

393
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: and his work at the University of Missouri, one of

394
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: the best journalism schools in the country, makes him to

395
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: me a bit of a rock star. I interviewed him

396
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: at his home in Columbia, Missouri. Before we talk about

397
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 1: Kay Lincoln, I want to learn how Steve first became

398
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: interested in investigating wrongful convictions. So during the decades that

399
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 1: I ran Investigative Reporters and Editors, the main part of

400
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: my job was to consult with other journalists who would

401
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: contact me for help on how to go about this

402
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: or how to go about that. And until I started

403
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: hearing from journalists all around the country all the time,

404
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: I was particularly aware of the whole phenomenon of wrongful convictions,

405
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: and even even those who were aware before I was

406
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: often got met with skepticism because until DNA testing started

407
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: becoming reliable and widespread in the late nineteen eighties, a

408
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: lot of people you know, had no proof that there

409
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: were a lot of wrongful convictions. So I became really

410
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: interested in the whole wrongful conviction phenomenon and began to

411
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: do some of the work myself on individual cases. And

412
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: so before I heard from Kay Lincoln, I was deeply

413
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: into wrongful conviction stuff. And when Steve receives Kay's email,

414
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: he immediately recognizes something different. As you may have intuited

415
00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: lots of times when journalists or others here um loved

416
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: ones of someone they think is innocent, the people who

417
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: are doing the contact and are very emotional and not

418
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: very well organized and their thinking or in whatever paperwork

419
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: might exist. But Ka was different. I mean I didn't

420
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: know at the time that she had almost no formal

421
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: education she dropped out of high school. But I could

422
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: just tell she was different from people I usually heard

423
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: from that she was not unemotional, but realistic and very

424
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: well organized with their documentation. I was teaching an investigative

425
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: reporting class, and I thought, you know, after I meet

426
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: with Kay, if this looks like a promising case where

427
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: I can really be of some use, then I can

428
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: get the students involved for a whole semester for academic credit.

429
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: And that's what happened. They start with looking at the

430
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: initial investigation and Detective Joe Burgoon. Well, right after the murder,

431
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: Burgoon was on vacation, so for the first few weeks

432
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: he was out of the loop and the other cops

433
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: were just flayley. They had no idea, and of course

434
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: there was a lot of pressure on them to solve

435
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: this case. Understandable, it was an extremely emotional murder and

436
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: then the mutilation of these two girls, and so when

437
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: Burgoon got back from vacation, it took over the investigation.

438
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: He was very emotional in his own right because he

439
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: really wanted to solve the case, and I admire him

440
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: for that. Of course, I'll tell you an anecdote jumping forward,

441
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 1: but when I and the students interviewed Burgoon, he actually

442
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: willingly came from St. Louis to Colombia and talked to

443
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: the class, which was pretty amazing. I on most cops

444
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: never would have done that because we're basically second guessing him.

445
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: But the day he came to Columbia to talk to

446
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: the class, and he pulled out his wallet at one point.

447
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: This isn't two thousand and five, twenty three years after

448
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: the murder and the mutilation of those girls, and he

449
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: still had their pictures from two that he carried around

450
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: in his wallet because he got so emotionally involved in

451
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: that case. So that that says a lot. Bragoon on

452
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: the slimmest of evidence, I'm not even sure the word

453
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: evidence is right, jumped to some wrong conclusions that sealed

454
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: Rodney Lincoln's fate. As soon as they made a link

455
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: to Rodney Lincoln, which was so ridiculously slim in the

456
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: first place, they stopped paying attention to any contradictory evidence.

457
00:33:56,040 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: In my opinion, were there viable suspects, Yes, lots of them.

458
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: The murder victim, let's just say it was always looking

459
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: for love in all the wrong places. And she had

460
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: so many former husbands, so many former lovers, some of

461
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: them had alibies. But in my opinion, the police didn't

462
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: take any of those possible suspects seriously. After Ronnie Lincoln's

463
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: name came up in the weirdest way, they just shut down.

464
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: I actually asked Detective Joe Bragoon about that when we spoke.

465
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: There were people that seemed like they could have been suspects. Right,

466
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: viable suspects did was how like, what kind of investigation

467
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: was done? Into them. I think they showed the pictures.

468
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: So you know, during that week I was off on

469
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: this investigation started, they showed all these pictures. I yes,

470
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: they didn't pick anybody, you know, and so that's the

471
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: way we never we wanted to start trash. We didn't

472
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: want to show any pictures or anything. Do we do

473
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 1: any confuse them? Because you never getting you know a

474
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: lot of treasure from their answer to uncles and man,

475
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: you know how how am and things like that, you

476
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: know what happened would happened. I gotta say I give

477
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: Joe Burgoon credit for talking to me, but sometimes it

478
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: seems like he isn't fully answering the question. Like I

479
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: just asked if any of the viable suspects were properly investigated,

480
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: and he answers by saying Melissa and Renee didn't pick

481
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: out anyone from the photos they were shown. Then he

482
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: goes on to say he didn't show any photos to

483
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: the girls because he didn't want to confuse them. But

484
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: based on his own police reports, he did in fact

485
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: show Melissa photos of suspects on at least two occasions.

486
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: So sometimes he doesn't really answer the question, and sometimes

487
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: he contradicts his own police reports. I wonder is it

488
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: because so many years have gone by and his memory

489
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: is fuzzy, or is it a bit of a rewriting

490
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: of history. Once you had Rodney, did the did the

491
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: investigation continue or was it still just based on Rodney?

492
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: And there was thirty seven pictures shown, all bills, you know,

493
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: and she didn't pick out any and she didn't pick

494
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: out anyone any Now we had to go out and

495
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: we had to get thirty seven g M care samples

496
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: for alo guys. It was so we could, you know,

497
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: we thought that you know, uh, deliminating against the against

498
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: the there he found, you know, but I took a

499
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: while to get took it all. All these guys stephen

500
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: A students learned that the way the composite sketch came

501
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 1: to be was highly unusual. Cops started with the photo

502
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: of a family friend who, at one point Melissa said,

503
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: resembled the killer, and they went from there. Well, what

504
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: happened was the police artist had the photograph and showed

505
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: it to Melissa and said, did the eyes of the

506
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: person who killed your mom look like this or this?

507
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 1: Or the mouth look like this or this. From that,

508
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: they get the composite sketch, and only when police go

509
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 1: through Joanne's diary with her family do they land on Rodney.

510
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: What did you make of the lineup? The lineup was

511
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: absurd and what else can you say? So obviously waited

512
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 1: towards Rodney Lincoln. I'm going to describe the lineup from

513
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: what's written in the police report and from the photo

514
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: which I'm looking at right now. There are four white

515
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: males in this lineup. I'll get to Rodney in a minute. First.

516
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: The other three men, two of them are one years old,

517
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 1: one is eighteen. All have lighter and longer hair. Two

518
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: of the men have mustaches. Rodney is thirty seven years old.

519
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: He has dark brown hair, cut short, no mustache, and

520
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: he's inches shorter than the other men. Although the police

521
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 1: report says that they're all five seven, not even remotely possible.

522
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: It's one of those times during this process I wish

523
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't just audio and I could show you the

524
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: actual line of photo. Objectively speaking, it's kind of crazy.

525
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: Here's Detective Bragoon again. There was a few mistakes, I

526
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: think to try and get him as the same OUTWEIGHTEDHI

527
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 1: takes six similar descriptions. You know if if there goes

528
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 1: our sanity, and aren't you many people lacked up an

529
00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: endin deal with with white males, Yeah, and trying to

530
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: find this hard to find white mail sentence. We used

531
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: to try to have to use police officers, you know

532
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: that there would shift change and everything else. That that

533
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: didn't work out, so we had to fill with the

534
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 1: best we could. But Rachel was there for all that too.

535
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: If you do a lineup and then there's nobody that

536
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 1: looks like your suspect, don't you wait until you can

537
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: get people who we can't. We want to bring somebody

538
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: if we're going to arrest him. We don't At Missouri

539
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 1: at dead time at twenty hours, you have twenty hours

540
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: to fly once. And that's that's that's the problem. So

541
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: you felt like you had only twenty hours in order

542
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: for there to be a well that's why. That's when

543
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: we have twenty hours to charge and I think we

544
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: could always go back there and as long as he

545
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: hasn't been he hasn't been too joking not guilty in court,

546
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: you know, you have twenty hours to make it once

547
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: when we take something to home the case back to

548
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: Steve Weinberg. When police got a search warrant and searched

549
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: the car his mom's car. Did they find any evidence?

550
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: There was zero physical evidence. His mother's car was the

551
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: one Rodney drove, and it was in nineteen seventy two

552
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: Pontiac Catalina light green station wagon, not a yellow taxi

553
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: or a white Folkswagen like Melissa said Bill drove. So

554
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 1: the trials, there doesn't seem to be a transcript for

555
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: the first trial. The transcript is missing. My students and

556
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: I even found the transcriptionist who had retired and moved away,

557
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: and she I don't know if she had to Mansia

558
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: by the time we reached here, but she was no

559
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 1: help at all. So we had to do our best

560
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 1: piecing information from the first trial from other documents that

561
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: mentioned hung jury. But we know now with an almost

562
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 1: degree of certainty that there were five jurors who wanted

563
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: to vote not guilty, and so it was a hung jury.

564
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: Steve's students talked with some of those jurors. I was

565
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: able to talk with one too. My name is Marianne Widest,

566
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: and I was on the jury for his first trial.

567
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: Mary was in her early thirties at the time of

568
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: the trial. Today she's seventy two. Besides being sequestered and

569
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 1: reporting another juror from misconduct, which actually resulted in that

570
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: woman being kicked off the jury, the most telling and

571
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: compelling moment of the trial is the first time she

572
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: sees young Melissa. Melissa came into the courtroom and she

573
00:41:54,440 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: saw Rodney at his table. She smiles so big when

574
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: she saw Rodney and started walking over there. The d

575
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: A grabbed her hand and walked her up to the stand.

576
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 1: What did you make of that moment Melissa walking towards Rodney?

577
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: For me, it was like she didn't think anything wrong

578
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: with Rodney. She was not holding anything against and I

579
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 1: felt that she It's hard to explain, it's like for me,

580
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: it was like a point where if this really did

581
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 1: happen the way the DA say, why would she go

582
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: over and smile at someone who has been reported as

583
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: hurting her and her sister and murdering her mother. How

584
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: is Melissa on the stand. The d A had to

585
00:42:54,280 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: kind of remind Melissa of things and say, well, told

586
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: me this and the hospital is at what you said, Um,

587
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 1: we talked about this at the hospital when I talked

588
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: to you, don't you remember? And it was kind of

589
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: to meet. Felt like he was leading her to answer

590
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: the way he wanted and not the way she wanted,

591
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: or she would have said, you know, was there one

592
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: person's testimony in particular that had a major effect on you?

593
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 1: I guess I would say for Google, Forgom just he

594
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: gave the impressions that what I say goes I am

595
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: you know, because of his position and who he was,

596
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 1: and that arrogant, very arrogant the way he was on

597
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: the stand, and I didn't like that. Seems like he

598
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 1: was trying to say, I am right, this is where,

599
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 1: this is how it went, this is what we found,

600
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: and so this is Rodney. We have to put it

601
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: in prison. I will tell you personally myself. I don't

602
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: know what anybody else did, but I know I never

603
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 1: prayed more in my life than I did during that trial,

604
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: because I kept saying to God, please show me, make sure,

605
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:33,479
Speaker 1: show me what I should vote, because right now I

606
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: don't seem much saying it's Rodney, but if he is

607
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 1: the one, make sure I know it. What was it

608
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 1: like during those deliberations there were two of us that

609
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: felt Rodney was innocent and the rest said he was guilty.

610
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: But I got very heated in our jury. Yeah, um,

611
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: they were very heated. Why can't we change our mind?

612
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: You know? And all the other guy and I kept saying,

613
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 1: prove it, prove it. And by the time we left

614
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 1: we had told one or two over our side because

615
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: of what we had said about why we felt and

616
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: what wasn't showed us to prove that it was actually helped.

617
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: What did you think when you learned that Rodney had

618
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: been found guilty in the second trial. I was upset.

619
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 1: I felt bad about the trial. I felt bad about

620
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: what the decision was. Back to Steve Weinberg. After a

621
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 1: semester of Steve and a students researching, tracking down people

622
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: and documents, and analyzing everything they had compiled, Steve sits

623
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: down to write a feature article based on their investigation.

624
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: Shan his eleven students make any necessary corrections or clarifications

625
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: all will get byeline credit. Eleven months after ca Lincoln

626
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: first reached out to Steve, and twenty three years into

627
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: her father's prison sentence, on October five, the St. Louis

628
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: Post Dispatch runs their story the Aftermath of Murder on

629
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 1: the front page of the Sunday edition. The best circulation

630
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: at the time. What happens the article is published and

631
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: what happens next, Well, I'm not sure how much of

632
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: an influence our article add I think it certainly raised

633
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: the consciousness of many many people in St. Louis about

634
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: this case. But did we solve anything certainty? No, While

635
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: that article may not have moved the needle, that makes

636
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 1: no difference to Melissa Dubor. It was a or I

637
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: went to more next time on The Real Killer. Oh

638
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: my god, you know, how does this happen? St? Louis

639
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: metro p DS case is under the microscope. We found

640
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: nine of her fingernails, an ashtray full of cigarette buch

641
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: and found a pair of underwear. What did you do

642
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: with that? We do it all away because they said

643
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: they were done, and a bomb show. Some never disclosed

644
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: evidence is accidentally uncovered. I think that's when I knew

645
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: that I'd hit something big. The Real Killer is a

646
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 1: production of a y R Media and I Heart Radio,

647
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and

648
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: Eliza Rosen for a y R Media. Written by me

649
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 1: Leah Rothman, Senior Associate producer Eric Newman, Editing and sound

650
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: design by Cameron Taggy, Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi.

651
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: Audio engineering by Jesus c Mario Studio engineering by Tom

652
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: Weir and Kelly McGrew. Legal counsel for a y R Media,

653
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: Gianni Douglas, Executive producer for I Heart Radio, Chandler Maze.

654
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying The Real Killer, tell your friends about

655
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: it and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or

656
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts