WEBVTT - How Agent Orange Worked

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how

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<v Speaker 1>Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm editor Candice Gibson, joined by staff writer Jane Grass.

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<v Speaker 1>Jane because sometimes when you think about war or historical wars,

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<v Speaker 1>I can seem sort of romantic, and not love romantic,

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<v Speaker 1>but the idea of you know, like the romances of history.

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<v Speaker 1>Thinking back to um like the Revolutionary War, when you

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<v Speaker 1>envisioned the tri cornered hats in the red coat, glorious. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it just it feels kind of good. Or when you

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<v Speaker 1>think about the Alamo and you know there was dust

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<v Speaker 1>everywhere and people wearing moccasins and leather and there was

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<v Speaker 1>just such bravery. Just I don't know, it paints an

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<v Speaker 1>interesting and vivid picture in your mind. Or even when

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<v Speaker 1>you see paintings and history bookton museums, like you said,

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<v Speaker 1>I think glory is it's the perfect word. But when

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<v Speaker 1>you think about a war like Vietnam and you look

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<v Speaker 1>at the backdrop, I mean, aside from the associate of

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<v Speaker 1>cultural implications of the war, even the backdrop of the

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<v Speaker 1>land is entirely different. You don't see the snow covered

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<v Speaker 1>landscapes you you you know, don't see the I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know the cacti of the Texan desert. I know what

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<v Speaker 1>would have been president the Alamo, But Vietnam was essentially

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<v Speaker 1>deforested throughout the war, and so when you look at it,

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<v Speaker 1>it's just black death on the landscape. Yeah, it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>pretty startling to see. And like, yeah, as you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 1>if you've ever seen a Vietnam war movie, that is

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<v Speaker 1>one thing that you know, the image that comes to

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<v Speaker 1>your mind is a very jungle e um uh situation

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<v Speaker 1>right there where obviously it's it's a scary situation to

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<v Speaker 1>be fighting in a in a war, in a jungle

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<v Speaker 1>situation where the people you're fighting against are very familiar

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<v Speaker 1>with it and you're not. They can your enemy can

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<v Speaker 1>use it against you. And that's why the Americans in

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<v Speaker 1>Vietnam were very preoccupied with with clearing the area of jungle.

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<v Speaker 1>And one of the most effective ways that they did

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<v Speaker 1>that was the use of agent Orange. That's right, and

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<v Speaker 1>this was a herbicide. Um. The basically they dumped it

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<v Speaker 1>on about ten percent of Vietnam and a governed of

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of jungle. It did it did its job,

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<v Speaker 1>um about eleven million gallons. I think between nineteen sixty

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<v Speaker 1>five and nineteen seventy, and it was actually one of

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<v Speaker 1>a class of her. Besides they call it like so

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<v Speaker 1>called rainbow um her. Besides the different colors and all

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<v Speaker 1>to do with the stripe that was on the box,

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<v Speaker 1>nothing with the actual substance. But there was actually others

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<v Speaker 1>like pink and purple were actually more dangerous than agent orange,

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<v Speaker 1>but they weren't used as quite as much, right, And

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<v Speaker 1>we should note that when it was developed the scientists

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<v Speaker 1>he developed at Dr Arthur Galston. He was a botanist

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<v Speaker 1>and he essentially started researching growth hormones and um. He

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<v Speaker 1>had no idea that his discoveries were going to be

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<v Speaker 1>interpreted and used like this, And he actually sad, after

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<v Speaker 1>all of a sudden done. Nothing that you do in

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<v Speaker 1>science is guaranteed to result in benefits for mankind. Any discovery,

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<v Speaker 1>I believe is morally neutral, and it can be earned

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<v Speaker 1>either too constructive or destructive ends. That's not the fault

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<v Speaker 1>of science. That's interesting, And you know he must have

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<v Speaker 1>felt incredible guilt. And here he was being very rational

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<v Speaker 1>and illogical about it. But to think that you developed

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<v Speaker 1>something that was repurposed and used in this way, and

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to go on to tell you guys about

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<v Speaker 1>the horrible health effects that it caused, but just to

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<v Speaker 1>start with, you know, I think we should paint some

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<v Speaker 1>background about what it actually did to the jungle, and

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<v Speaker 1>we should mention that the main ingredient and Agent Orange

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<v Speaker 1>was dioxin and the effect that it had on the

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<v Speaker 1>plants was that it caused the leaves to fall off

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<v Speaker 1>and die first, and then the roots of the plants

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<v Speaker 1>are killed as well, and the vegetation just turns black

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<v Speaker 1>and it smells. And the way it does this is

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<v Speaker 1>it has too much growth regulation within the chemical and

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<v Speaker 1>the plant tissue grow so fast that the rest of

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<v Speaker 1>the plant just can't keep up die. Yeah. Yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of ironic about it because Golson's work was was

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<v Speaker 1>particularly aimed towards help plants grow more and speedily. And

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<v Speaker 1>um So, in small amounts, these sort of substitute substances

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<v Speaker 1>actually do um just that they help encourage plant growth.

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<v Speaker 1>But in large substances, the tissue and everything actually grows

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<v Speaker 1>much too quickly and it and it dies very quickly

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<v Speaker 1>as a result. And that's what's so strange about the

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<v Speaker 1>use of agent orange. And this is why it was

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<v Speaker 1>called an eco side and that means that it caused

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<v Speaker 1>the death of wildlife and the environment, and it posed

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<v Speaker 1>to health risk to people. Was that, like you were saying, Jane,

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<v Speaker 1>and small doses diox and can actually decrease cancer. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that really shocked me. Yeah, but in large doses quite

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<v Speaker 1>the opposite of quite the opposite. And I'll give you

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<v Speaker 1>all a very very visual example and a contemporary wanted that.

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<v Speaker 1>Um are you familiar with Victory Schenko? I don't think

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<v Speaker 1>i am. He was Ukrainian politician or just a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of years ago, was a victim of docs and poisoning.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you look at pictures of him, and if

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<v Speaker 1>you haven't seen these pictures, I would encourage you to

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<v Speaker 1>go look them up on the end as soon as possible.

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<v Speaker 1>And that word was internet. On the way my southern

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<v Speaker 1>accent gets sometimes you can see instantly he was, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>sort of a middle aged man, but handsome, you know, chiseled, jaw,

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<v Speaker 1>striking features, very youthful. And after the poisoning, his skin

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<v Speaker 1>has this greenish tent to it, and he's got wrinkles

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<v Speaker 1>and spots and it's just all crumbled up. It's just

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<v Speaker 1>pitiful to look at. But the thing about diox and

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<v Speaker 1>is that it will eventually work its way out of

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<v Speaker 1>your system. It's right, and it's actually I think I

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<v Speaker 1>remember reading that everyone has a little bit of dios

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<v Speaker 1>and in them, so that that kind of makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>And scientists don't know how long it takes to completely

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<v Speaker 1>work out of you, but it does dissipate over time.

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<v Speaker 1>It's effects to do, and so if you look at

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<v Speaker 1>pictures of you shouldn't go today, it's not quite as

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<v Speaker 1>severe as right after the attacks. But the thing about

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<v Speaker 1>diox and that makes it so scary is that we

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<v Speaker 1>don't know that much about its effects and how long

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<v Speaker 1>it stays in the body. We do know that it

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<v Speaker 1>is um fat soluble, so it stays in your body

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<v Speaker 1>when you eat crops that have been affected by it,

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<v Speaker 1>or animals that have gray based on the crops that

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<v Speaker 1>have been affected by it, and it just accumulates and

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<v Speaker 1>your fat tissue. That's right. And one thing that helps

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<v Speaker 1>it spread so much um is the fact that seats

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<v Speaker 1>into the ground that eventually gets in the water sources,

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<v Speaker 1>and like obviously it spreads a way beyond control. And

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<v Speaker 1>so as we mentioned during the Vietnam war. Jane said

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<v Speaker 1>it was um. It was used in about ten percent

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<v Speaker 1>of the country. It was sprayed from aircraft, and not

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<v Speaker 1>only there, but also on the hotelm and trail and

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<v Speaker 1>Allows and Cambodia that the viet Cong used as a

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<v Speaker 1>supply route. And so not just Vietnamese soldiers, but Vietnamese

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<v Speaker 1>civilians fell prey to your too, as well as American soldiers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's true, and UM. One of the problems with this,

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<v Speaker 1>at least one source, the US Veteran Dispatch, believes that

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<v Speaker 1>the military didn't dilute the herbicides that used enough. The

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<v Speaker 1>manufacturer UM suggests that they should have diluted it UM

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<v Speaker 1>six twenty five times more than they did. Yeah, so

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<v Speaker 1>that obviously didn't help the problem. So today there's some

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<v Speaker 1>Vietnamese who have ten times more diox and and their

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<v Speaker 1>blood than what's normal. And when big doses, the health

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<v Speaker 1>problems that it can cause primarily affect the endocrine, immune,

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<v Speaker 1>and nervous systems, and from here docks and causes things

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<v Speaker 1>like miscarriages and cancer, birth effects, even type two diabetes

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<v Speaker 1>and nerve disorders. Yeah, it's it's pretty surprising, and obviously

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<v Speaker 1>so many of the veterans were exposed to this. That

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<v Speaker 1>now the actually as literally as the Veterans Administration actually

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<v Speaker 1>UM set up a program specifically for this problem, helping

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<v Speaker 1>helping veterans deal with the health effects that came from

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<v Speaker 1>agent orange. And but now they even make the presumption

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<v Speaker 1>of all veterans being exposed to this. And we were saying,

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<v Speaker 1>we're not sure how long it takes for docks and

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<v Speaker 1>and the other chemicals and agent orange to finally leave

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<v Speaker 1>someone's body, but we do know that veterans who came

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<v Speaker 1>home and gave birth to children saw the same health

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<v Speaker 1>problems that they were having or lesser greater degrees and

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<v Speaker 1>their offspring. That's right, and that was particularly a problem

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<v Speaker 1>or at least a heart wrenching story UM about Elmo

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<v Speaker 1>are Zomalt jr. Uh. He was renowned in the Navy

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<v Speaker 1>for ending helping to end raised gender discrimination the Navy.

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<v Speaker 1>And actually when he was fighting in the Vietnam War,

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<v Speaker 1>he uh he was responsible for for dumping some agent

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<v Speaker 1>orange on this area called the Makong Delta. And what

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<v Speaker 1>he wanted to do was was helped to expose the

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<v Speaker 1>snipers that were killing a lot of Americans there. But

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<v Speaker 1>as it happened. His son, Elma third, was actually commanding

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<v Speaker 1>a boat in that area and he was exposed to

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<v Speaker 1>the agent orange. That was that his father was responsible

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<v Speaker 1>for dumping. UM. So when the war ended, Elma the

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<v Speaker 1>third came home and UH he had a child, his son,

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<v Speaker 1>Elmo the fourth, and UH he was actually uh showed

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<v Speaker 1>UM he suffers from a significant learning disability as a result.

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<v Speaker 1>They think of this agent orange exposure and UH and

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<v Speaker 1>later Elmo the third, the son of of of Zamat Junior,

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<v Speaker 1>actually died of cancer and they think that was a

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<v Speaker 1>result of the agent orange exposure as well. But before

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<v Speaker 1>he died, father and son wrote a book about their

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<v Speaker 1>experiences in Vietnam. And the father was an admiral and

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<v Speaker 1>his son was of a lesser rank. But together they

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<v Speaker 1>came up with a unified opinion that while agent orange

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<v Speaker 1>did cause destruction, and yes, in fact, it was responsible

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<v Speaker 1>for the third and the fourth's health problems, it also

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<v Speaker 1>saved many lives of American soldiers in the war because

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<v Speaker 1>it did cut down on the foliage, and it did

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<v Speaker 1>expose snipers, and it did expose you know, UM troops

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<v Speaker 1>station along the supply roads. And UH. While the Admiral

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<v Speaker 1>later on became an advocate for helping people get compensation

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<v Speaker 1>for agent orange prone injuries or diseases and things like that.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, he pointed out what was on everyone's mind,

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<v Speaker 1>and that was that this was such a sticky situation.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, did we do we condone the use of

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<v Speaker 1>agent orange or do we allowed it and say it

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<v Speaker 1>was a necessary war casualty for the enemy? Do we

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<v Speaker 1>blame the government? Should we get reparations for it? And

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<v Speaker 1>this has actually been a big issue in court. Back

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<v Speaker 1>in four there was a class action lawsuit brought against

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<v Speaker 1>seven companies who were disseminators of agent orange, and they

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<v Speaker 1>essentially were charged with not giving full disclosure to the

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<v Speaker 1>government about what was in this chemical, how it should

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<v Speaker 1>be used, and the government, I think maybe because of this,

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't as careful as it should have been when using

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<v Speaker 1>it against civilians in Vietnam. You know, there was no

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<v Speaker 1>distinction given to using in land where there were no

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<v Speaker 1>civilians versus where they were Vietcong soldiers, and that's what

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<v Speaker 1>made it's so messy. But after this lawsuit, about one

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<v Speaker 1>hundred eighty million was allocated for two hundred people and

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<v Speaker 1>the finals, the final settlement came to two hundred forty

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<v Speaker 1>million after it had compounded interest, and the chemical companies

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<v Speaker 1>continued to be uh, targets of plaintiffs who came against them.

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<v Speaker 1>I shouldn't really use the word target, because that's not fair.

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<v Speaker 1>But they continued to have plaintiffs come to them and

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<v Speaker 1>say we need compensation, that our health issues now. But

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<v Speaker 1>they kept saying, well, you know, too much time has

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<v Speaker 1>passed for your claims, and you know, the government told

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<v Speaker 1>us to make these chemicals, and we're not really sure

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<v Speaker 1>what agent orange is caused and what health problems run

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<v Speaker 1>in your family. Yeah, what brings up the question like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>who else can we blame? I mean, maybe the military

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<v Speaker 1>is to blame and we should go to the U. S.

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<v Speaker 1>Government itself. And that actually has been a tough thing

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<v Speaker 1>to accomplish because the government has been able to hide

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<v Speaker 1>behind this idea of sovereign immunity, which is the idea

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<v Speaker 1>that the government cannot be sued, and the Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 1>has has held it up in many situations, and so

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<v Speaker 1>it's made it very difficult for suffers of agent orange

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<v Speaker 1>to get recompense. Right, and so even if you can't

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<v Speaker 1>do the government, you can still lobby against the government

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<v Speaker 1>to go and clean up the mass from agent Orange's

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<v Speaker 1>still causing trouble and the soil today, and it's very

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<v Speaker 1>expensive to clean up as well is and there are

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<v Speaker 1>plenty of humanitarian and activist groups out there who were saying,

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<v Speaker 1>what you cleaned up all these land mines, now you

0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:57.720
<v Speaker 1>need to get back in there and clean out the

0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.000
<v Speaker 1>effects from agent orange as well. It's a good point.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're not really sure what's going to come of this.

0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:05.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we don't really know what sort of chemicals

0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.079
<v Speaker 1>are being used in wars today that are going to

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<v Speaker 1>continue to have lasting effects on generations. To comment's just,

0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's one of those things about war, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's another scary thing about science and what's developed a

0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.360
<v Speaker 1>theory in a lab. When it's actually put into practice

0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.080
<v Speaker 1>we can know the consequences. It's like a Pandora's box,

0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:26.000
<v Speaker 1>something you don't really know. What's in a beaker is

0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.160
<v Speaker 1>much different from what's being sprayed from an aircraft over Vietnam.

0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.240
<v Speaker 1>And we should mention too that agent orange was also

0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:35.560
<v Speaker 1>used again in the Korean War, not by the US

0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.640
<v Speaker 1>but by Korea, so that we have melodies and not

0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.960
<v Speaker 1>war as well. That's true. So you want to learn

0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.720
<v Speaker 1>more about Agent Orange and the Vietnam War and even

0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.640
<v Speaker 1>the scientific method, be sure to check out how stuff

0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.800
<v Speaker 1>works dot com for more on this and thousands of

0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.240
<v Speaker 1>other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com Let

0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.960
<v Speaker 1>us know what should think. Send an email to podcast

0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:00.520
<v Speaker 1>and how Stuff We're that car