Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm editor Candice Gibson, joined by staff writer Jane Grass.
Speaker 1: Jane because sometimes when you think about war or historical wars,
Speaker 1: I can seem sort of romantic, and not love romantic,
Speaker 1: but the idea of you know, like the romances of history.
Speaker 1: Thinking back to um like the Revolutionary War, when you
Speaker 1: envisioned the tri cornered hats in the red coat, glorious. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it just it feels kind of good. Or when you
Speaker 1: think about the Alamo and you know there was dust
Speaker 1: everywhere and people wearing moccasins and leather and there was
Speaker 1: just such bravery. Just I don't know, it paints an
Speaker 1: interesting and vivid picture in your mind. Or even when
Speaker 1: you see paintings and history bookton museums, like you said,
Speaker 1: I think glory is it's the perfect word. But when
Speaker 1: you think about a war like Vietnam and you look
Speaker 1: at the backdrop, I mean, aside from the associate of
Speaker 1: cultural implications of the war, even the backdrop of the
Speaker 1: land is entirely different. You don't see the snow covered
Speaker 1: landscapes you you you know, don't see the I don't
Speaker 1: know the cacti of the Texan desert. I know what
Speaker 1: would have been president the Alamo, But Vietnam was essentially
Speaker 1: deforested throughout the war, and so when you look at it,
Speaker 1: it's just black death on the landscape. Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: pretty startling to see. And like, yeah, as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: if you've ever seen a Vietnam war movie, that is
Speaker 1: one thing that you know, the image that comes to
Speaker 1: your mind is a very jungle e um uh situation
Speaker 1: right there where obviously it's it's a scary situation to
Speaker 1: be fighting in a in a war, in a jungle
Speaker 1: situation where the people you're fighting against are very familiar
Speaker 1: with it and you're not. They can your enemy can
Speaker 1: use it against you. And that's why the Americans in
Speaker 1: Vietnam were very preoccupied with with clearing the area of jungle.
Speaker 1: And one of the most effective ways that they did
Speaker 1: that was the use of agent Orange. That's right, and
Speaker 1: this was a herbicide. Um. The basically they dumped it
Speaker 1: on about ten percent of Vietnam and a governed of
Speaker 1: a lot of jungle. It did it did its job,
Speaker 1: um about eleven million gallons. I think between nineteen sixty
Speaker 1: five and nineteen seventy, and it was actually one of
Speaker 1: a class of her. Besides they call it like so
Speaker 1: called rainbow um her. Besides the different colors and all
Speaker 1: to do with the stripe that was on the box,
Speaker 1: nothing with the actual substance. But there was actually others
Speaker 1: like pink and purple were actually more dangerous than agent orange,
Speaker 1: but they weren't used as quite as much, right, And
Speaker 1: we should note that when it was developed the scientists
Speaker 1: he developed at Dr Arthur Galston. He was a botanist
Speaker 1: and he essentially started researching growth hormones and um. He
Speaker 1: had no idea that his discoveries were going to be
Speaker 1: interpreted and used like this, And he actually sad, after
Speaker 1: all of a sudden done. Nothing that you do in
Speaker 1: science is guaranteed to result in benefits for mankind. Any discovery,
Speaker 1: I believe is morally neutral, and it can be earned
Speaker 1: either too constructive or destructive ends. That's not the fault
Speaker 1: of science. That's interesting, And you know he must have
Speaker 1: felt incredible guilt. And here he was being very rational
Speaker 1: and illogical about it. But to think that you developed
Speaker 1: something that was repurposed and used in this way, and
Speaker 1: we're going to go on to tell you guys about
Speaker 1: the horrible health effects that it caused, but just to
Speaker 1: start with, you know, I think we should paint some
Speaker 1: background about what it actually did to the jungle, and
Speaker 1: we should mention that the main ingredient and Agent Orange
Speaker 1: was dioxin and the effect that it had on the
Speaker 1: plants was that it caused the leaves to fall off
Speaker 1: and die first, and then the roots of the plants
Speaker 1: are killed as well, and the vegetation just turns black
Speaker 1: and it smells. And the way it does this is
Speaker 1: it has too much growth regulation within the chemical and
Speaker 1: the plant tissue grow so fast that the rest of
Speaker 1: the plant just can't keep up die. Yeah. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: kind of ironic about it because Golson's work was was
Speaker 1: particularly aimed towards help plants grow more and speedily. And
Speaker 1: um So, in small amounts, these sort of substitute substances
Speaker 1: actually do um just that they help encourage plant growth.
Speaker 1: But in large substances, the tissue and everything actually grows
Speaker 1: much too quickly and it and it dies very quickly
Speaker 1: as a result. And that's what's so strange about the
Speaker 1: use of agent orange. And this is why it was
Speaker 1: called an eco side and that means that it caused
Speaker 1: the death of wildlife and the environment, and it posed
Speaker 1: to health risk to people. Was that, like you were saying, Jane,
Speaker 1: and small doses diox and can actually decrease cancer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that really shocked me. Yeah, but in large doses quite
Speaker 1: the opposite of quite the opposite. And I'll give you
Speaker 1: all a very very visual example and a contemporary wanted that.
Speaker 1: Um are you familiar with Victory Schenko? I don't think
Speaker 1: i am. He was Ukrainian politician or just a couple
Speaker 1: of years ago, was a victim of docs and poisoning.
Speaker 1: And if you look at pictures of him, and if
Speaker 1: you haven't seen these pictures, I would encourage you to
Speaker 1: go look them up on the end as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: And that word was internet. On the way my southern
Speaker 1: accent gets sometimes you can see instantly he was, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of a middle aged man, but handsome, you know, chiseled, jaw,
Speaker 1: striking features, very youthful. And after the poisoning, his skin
Speaker 1: has this greenish tent to it, and he's got wrinkles
Speaker 1: and spots and it's just all crumbled up. It's just
Speaker 1: pitiful to look at. But the thing about diox and
Speaker 1: is that it will eventually work its way out of
Speaker 1: your system. It's right, and it's actually I think I
Speaker 1: remember reading that everyone has a little bit of dios
Speaker 1: and in them, so that that kind of makes sense.
Speaker 1: And scientists don't know how long it takes to completely
Speaker 1: work out of you, but it does dissipate over time.
Speaker 1: It's effects to do, and so if you look at
Speaker 1: pictures of you shouldn't go today, it's not quite as
Speaker 1: severe as right after the attacks. But the thing about
Speaker 1: diox and that makes it so scary is that we
Speaker 1: don't know that much about its effects and how long
Speaker 1: it stays in the body. We do know that it
Speaker 1: is um fat soluble, so it stays in your body
Speaker 1: when you eat crops that have been affected by it,
Speaker 1: or animals that have gray based on the crops that
Speaker 1: have been affected by it, and it just accumulates and
Speaker 1: your fat tissue. That's right. And one thing that helps
Speaker 1: it spread so much um is the fact that seats
Speaker 1: into the ground that eventually gets in the water sources,
Speaker 1: and like obviously it spreads a way beyond control. And
Speaker 1: so as we mentioned during the Vietnam war. Jane said
Speaker 1: it was um. It was used in about ten percent
Speaker 1: of the country. It was sprayed from aircraft, and not
Speaker 1: only there, but also on the hotelm and trail and
Speaker 1: Allows and Cambodia that the viet Cong used as a
Speaker 1: supply route. And so not just Vietnamese soldiers, but Vietnamese
Speaker 1: civilians fell prey to your too, as well as American soldiers.
Speaker 1: That's true, and UM. One of the problems with this,
Speaker 1: at least one source, the US Veteran Dispatch, believes that
Speaker 1: the military didn't dilute the herbicides that used enough. The
Speaker 1: manufacturer UM suggests that they should have diluted it UM
Speaker 1: six twenty five times more than they did. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: that obviously didn't help the problem. So today there's some
Speaker 1: Vietnamese who have ten times more diox and and their
Speaker 1: blood than what's normal. And when big doses, the health
Speaker 1: problems that it can cause primarily affect the endocrine, immune,
Speaker 1: and nervous systems, and from here docks and causes things
Speaker 1: like miscarriages and cancer, birth effects, even type two diabetes
Speaker 1: and nerve disorders. Yeah, it's it's pretty surprising, and obviously
Speaker 1: so many of the veterans were exposed to this. That
Speaker 1: now the actually as literally as the Veterans Administration actually
Speaker 1: UM set up a program specifically for this problem, helping
Speaker 1: helping veterans deal with the health effects that came from
Speaker 1: agent orange. And but now they even make the presumption
Speaker 1: of all veterans being exposed to this. And we were saying,
Speaker 1: we're not sure how long it takes for docks and
Speaker 1: and the other chemicals and agent orange to finally leave
Speaker 1: someone's body, but we do know that veterans who came
Speaker 1: home and gave birth to children saw the same health
Speaker 1: problems that they were having or lesser greater degrees and
Speaker 1: their offspring. That's right, and that was particularly a problem
Speaker 1: or at least a heart wrenching story UM about Elmo
Speaker 1: are Zomalt jr. Uh. He was renowned in the Navy
Speaker 1: for ending helping to end raised gender discrimination the Navy.
Speaker 1: And actually when he was fighting in the Vietnam War,
Speaker 1: he uh he was responsible for for dumping some agent
Speaker 1: orange on this area called the Makong Delta. And what
Speaker 1: he wanted to do was was helped to expose the
Speaker 1: snipers that were killing a lot of Americans there. But
Speaker 1: as it happened. His son, Elma third, was actually commanding
Speaker 1: a boat in that area and he was exposed to
Speaker 1: the agent orange. That was that his father was responsible
Speaker 1: for dumping. UM. So when the war ended, Elma the
Speaker 1: third came home and UH he had a child, his son,
Speaker 1: Elmo the fourth, and UH he was actually uh showed
Speaker 1: UM he suffers from a significant learning disability as a result.
Speaker 1: They think of this agent orange exposure and UH and
Speaker 1: later Elmo the third, the son of of of Zamat Junior,
Speaker 1: actually died of cancer and they think that was a
Speaker 1: result of the agent orange exposure as well. But before
Speaker 1: he died, father and son wrote a book about their
Speaker 1: experiences in Vietnam. And the father was an admiral and
Speaker 1: his son was of a lesser rank. But together they
Speaker 1: came up with a unified opinion that while agent orange
Speaker 1: did cause destruction, and yes, in fact, it was responsible
Speaker 1: for the third and the fourth's health problems, it also
Speaker 1: saved many lives of American soldiers in the war because
Speaker 1: it did cut down on the foliage, and it did
Speaker 1: expose snipers, and it did expose you know, UM troops
Speaker 1: station along the supply roads. And UH. While the Admiral
Speaker 1: later on became an advocate for helping people get compensation
Speaker 1: for agent orange prone injuries or diseases and things like that.
Speaker 1: You know, he pointed out what was on everyone's mind,
Speaker 1: and that was that this was such a sticky situation.
Speaker 1: You know, did we do we condone the use of
Speaker 1: agent orange or do we allowed it and say it
Speaker 1: was a necessary war casualty for the enemy? Do we
Speaker 1: blame the government? Should we get reparations for it? And
Speaker 1: this has actually been a big issue in court. Back
Speaker 1: in four there was a class action lawsuit brought against
Speaker 1: seven companies who were disseminators of agent orange, and they
Speaker 1: essentially were charged with not giving full disclosure to the
Speaker 1: government about what was in this chemical, how it should
Speaker 1: be used, and the government, I think maybe because of this,
Speaker 1: wasn't as careful as it should have been when using
Speaker 1: it against civilians in Vietnam. You know, there was no
Speaker 1: distinction given to using in land where there were no
Speaker 1: civilians versus where they were Vietcong soldiers, and that's what
Speaker 1: made it's so messy. But after this lawsuit, about one
Speaker 1: hundred eighty million was allocated for two hundred people and
Speaker 1: the finals, the final settlement came to two hundred forty
Speaker 1: million after it had compounded interest, and the chemical companies
Speaker 1: continued to be uh, targets of plaintiffs who came against them.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't really use the word target, because that's not fair.
Speaker 1: But they continued to have plaintiffs come to them and
Speaker 1: say we need compensation, that our health issues now. But
Speaker 1: they kept saying, well, you know, too much time has
Speaker 1: passed for your claims, and you know, the government told
Speaker 1: us to make these chemicals, and we're not really sure
Speaker 1: what agent orange is caused and what health problems run
Speaker 1: in your family. Yeah, what brings up the question like, well,
Speaker 1: who else can we blame? I mean, maybe the military
Speaker 1: is to blame and we should go to the U. S.
Speaker 1: Government itself. And that actually has been a tough thing
Speaker 1: to accomplish because the government has been able to hide
Speaker 1: behind this idea of sovereign immunity, which is the idea
Speaker 1: that the government cannot be sued, and the Supreme Court
Speaker 1: has has held it up in many situations, and so
Speaker 1: it's made it very difficult for suffers of agent orange
Speaker 1: to get recompense. Right, and so even if you can't
Speaker 1: do the government, you can still lobby against the government
Speaker 1: to go and clean up the mass from agent Orange's
Speaker 1: still causing trouble and the soil today, and it's very
Speaker 1: expensive to clean up as well is and there are
Speaker 1: plenty of humanitarian and activist groups out there who were saying,
Speaker 1: what you cleaned up all these land mines, now you
Speaker 1: need to get back in there and clean out the
Speaker 1: effects from agent orange as well. It's a good point.
Speaker 1: So we're not really sure what's going to come of this.
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't really know what sort of chemicals
Speaker 1: are being used in wars today that are going to
Speaker 1: continue to have lasting effects on generations. To comment's just,
Speaker 1: you know, it's one of those things about war, and
Speaker 1: it's another scary thing about science and what's developed a
Speaker 1: theory in a lab. When it's actually put into practice
Speaker 1: we can know the consequences. It's like a Pandora's box,
Speaker 1: something you don't really know. What's in a beaker is
Speaker 1: much different from what's being sprayed from an aircraft over Vietnam.
Speaker 1: And we should mention too that agent orange was also
Speaker 1: used again in the Korean War, not by the US
Speaker 1: but by Korea, so that we have melodies and not
Speaker 1: war as well. That's true. So you want to learn
Speaker 1: more about Agent Orange and the Vietnam War and even
Speaker 1: the scientific method, be sure to check out how stuff
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