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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm editor Candice Gibson, joined by staff writer Jane Grass.

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Speaker 1: Jane because sometimes when you think about war or historical wars,

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Speaker 1: I can seem sort of romantic, and not love romantic,

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Speaker 1: but the idea of you know, like the romances of history.

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Speaker 1: Thinking back to um like the Revolutionary War, when you

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Speaker 1: envisioned the tri cornered hats in the red coat, glorious. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it just it feels kind of good. Or when you

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Speaker 1: think about the Alamo and you know there was dust

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Speaker 1: everywhere and people wearing moccasins and leather and there was

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Speaker 1: just such bravery. Just I don't know, it paints an

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Speaker 1: interesting and vivid picture in your mind. Or even when

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Speaker 1: you see paintings and history bookton museums, like you said,

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Speaker 1: I think glory is it's the perfect word. But when

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Speaker 1: you think about a war like Vietnam and you look

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Speaker 1: at the backdrop, I mean, aside from the associate of

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Speaker 1: cultural implications of the war, even the backdrop of the

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Speaker 1: land is entirely different. You don't see the snow covered

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Speaker 1: landscapes you you you know, don't see the I don't

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Speaker 1: know the cacti of the Texan desert. I know what

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Speaker 1: would have been president the Alamo, But Vietnam was essentially

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Speaker 1: deforested throughout the war, and so when you look at it,

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Speaker 1: it's just black death on the landscape. Yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: pretty startling to see. And like, yeah, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: if you've ever seen a Vietnam war movie, that is

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Speaker 1: one thing that you know, the image that comes to

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Speaker 1: your mind is a very jungle e um uh situation

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Speaker 1: right there where obviously it's it's a scary situation to

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Speaker 1: be fighting in a in a war, in a jungle

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Speaker 1: situation where the people you're fighting against are very familiar

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Speaker 1: with it and you're not. They can your enemy can

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Speaker 1: use it against you. And that's why the Americans in

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Speaker 1: Vietnam were very preoccupied with with clearing the area of jungle.

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Speaker 1: And one of the most effective ways that they did

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Speaker 1: that was the use of agent Orange. That's right, and

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Speaker 1: this was a herbicide. Um. The basically they dumped it

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Speaker 1: on about ten percent of Vietnam and a governed of

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Speaker 1: a lot of jungle. It did it did its job,

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Speaker 1: um about eleven million gallons. I think between nineteen sixty

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Speaker 1: five and nineteen seventy, and it was actually one of

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Speaker 1: a class of her. Besides they call it like so

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Speaker 1: called rainbow um her. Besides the different colors and all

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Speaker 1: to do with the stripe that was on the box,

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Speaker 1: nothing with the actual substance. But there was actually others

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Speaker 1: like pink and purple were actually more dangerous than agent orange,

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Speaker 1: but they weren't used as quite as much, right, And

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Speaker 1: we should note that when it was developed the scientists

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Speaker 1: he developed at Dr Arthur Galston. He was a botanist

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Speaker 1: and he essentially started researching growth hormones and um. He

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Speaker 1: had no idea that his discoveries were going to be

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Speaker 1: interpreted and used like this, And he actually sad, after

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden done. Nothing that you do in

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Speaker 1: science is guaranteed to result in benefits for mankind. Any discovery,

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Speaker 1: I believe is morally neutral, and it can be earned

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Speaker 1: either too constructive or destructive ends. That's not the fault

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Speaker 1: of science. That's interesting, And you know he must have

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Speaker 1: felt incredible guilt. And here he was being very rational

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Speaker 1: and illogical about it. But to think that you developed

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Speaker 1: something that was repurposed and used in this way, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to go on to tell you guys about

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Speaker 1: the horrible health effects that it caused, but just to

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Speaker 1: start with, you know, I think we should paint some

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Speaker 1: background about what it actually did to the jungle, and

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Speaker 1: we should mention that the main ingredient and Agent Orange

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Speaker 1: was dioxin and the effect that it had on the

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Speaker 1: plants was that it caused the leaves to fall off

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Speaker 1: and die first, and then the roots of the plants

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Speaker 1: are killed as well, and the vegetation just turns black

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Speaker 1: and it smells. And the way it does this is

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Speaker 1: it has too much growth regulation within the chemical and

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Speaker 1: the plant tissue grow so fast that the rest of

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Speaker 1: the plant just can't keep up die. Yeah. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of ironic about it because Golson's work was was

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Speaker 1: particularly aimed towards help plants grow more and speedily. And

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Speaker 1: um So, in small amounts, these sort of substitute substances

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Speaker 1: actually do um just that they help encourage plant growth.

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Speaker 1: But in large substances, the tissue and everything actually grows

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Speaker 1: much too quickly and it and it dies very quickly

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Speaker 1: as a result. And that's what's so strange about the

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Speaker 1: use of agent orange. And this is why it was

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Speaker 1: called an eco side and that means that it caused

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Speaker 1: the death of wildlife and the environment, and it posed

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Speaker 1: to health risk to people. Was that, like you were saying, Jane,

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Speaker 1: and small doses diox and can actually decrease cancer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that really shocked me. Yeah, but in large doses quite

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Speaker 1: the opposite of quite the opposite. And I'll give you

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Speaker 1: all a very very visual example and a contemporary wanted that.

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Speaker 1: Um are you familiar with Victory Schenko? I don't think

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Speaker 1: i am. He was Ukrainian politician or just a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, was a victim of docs and poisoning.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at pictures of him, and if

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Speaker 1: you haven't seen these pictures, I would encourage you to

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Speaker 1: go look them up on the end as soon as possible.

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Speaker 1: And that word was internet. On the way my southern

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Speaker 1: accent gets sometimes you can see instantly he was, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of a middle aged man, but handsome, you know, chiseled, jaw,

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Speaker 1: striking features, very youthful. And after the poisoning, his skin

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Speaker 1: has this greenish tent to it, and he's got wrinkles

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Speaker 1: and spots and it's just all crumbled up. It's just

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Speaker 1: pitiful to look at. But the thing about diox and

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Speaker 1: is that it will eventually work its way out of

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Speaker 1: your system. It's right, and it's actually I think I

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Speaker 1: remember reading that everyone has a little bit of dios

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Speaker 1: and in them, so that that kind of makes sense.

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Speaker 1: And scientists don't know how long it takes to completely

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Speaker 1: work out of you, but it does dissipate over time.

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Speaker 1: It's effects to do, and so if you look at

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Speaker 1: pictures of you shouldn't go today, it's not quite as

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Speaker 1: severe as right after the attacks. But the thing about

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Speaker 1: diox and that makes it so scary is that we

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Speaker 1: don't know that much about its effects and how long

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Speaker 1: it stays in the body. We do know that it

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Speaker 1: is um fat soluble, so it stays in your body

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Speaker 1: when you eat crops that have been affected by it,

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Speaker 1: or animals that have gray based on the crops that

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Speaker 1: have been affected by it, and it just accumulates and

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Speaker 1: your fat tissue. That's right. And one thing that helps

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Speaker 1: it spread so much um is the fact that seats

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Speaker 1: into the ground that eventually gets in the water sources,

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Speaker 1: and like obviously it spreads a way beyond control. And

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Speaker 1: so as we mentioned during the Vietnam war. Jane said

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Speaker 1: it was um. It was used in about ten percent

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Speaker 1: of the country. It was sprayed from aircraft, and not

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Speaker 1: only there, but also on the hotelm and trail and

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Speaker 1: Allows and Cambodia that the viet Cong used as a

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Speaker 1: supply route. And so not just Vietnamese soldiers, but Vietnamese

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Speaker 1: civilians fell prey to your too, as well as American soldiers.

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Speaker 1: That's true, and UM. One of the problems with this,

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Speaker 1: at least one source, the US Veteran Dispatch, believes that

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Speaker 1: the military didn't dilute the herbicides that used enough. The

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Speaker 1: manufacturer UM suggests that they should have diluted it UM

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Speaker 1: six twenty five times more than they did. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: that obviously didn't help the problem. So today there's some

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Speaker 1: Vietnamese who have ten times more diox and and their

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Speaker 1: blood than what's normal. And when big doses, the health

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Speaker 1: problems that it can cause primarily affect the endocrine, immune,

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Speaker 1: and nervous systems, and from here docks and causes things

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Speaker 1: like miscarriages and cancer, birth effects, even type two diabetes

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Speaker 1: and nerve disorders. Yeah, it's it's pretty surprising, and obviously

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Speaker 1: so many of the veterans were exposed to this. That

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Speaker 1: now the actually as literally as the Veterans Administration actually

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Speaker 1: UM set up a program specifically for this problem, helping

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Speaker 1: helping veterans deal with the health effects that came from

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Speaker 1: agent orange. And but now they even make the presumption

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Speaker 1: of all veterans being exposed to this. And we were saying,

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Speaker 1: we're not sure how long it takes for docks and

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Speaker 1: and the other chemicals and agent orange to finally leave

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Speaker 1: someone's body, but we do know that veterans who came

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Speaker 1: home and gave birth to children saw the same health

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Speaker 1: problems that they were having or lesser greater degrees and

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Speaker 1: their offspring. That's right, and that was particularly a problem

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Speaker 1: or at least a heart wrenching story UM about Elmo

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Speaker 1: are Zomalt jr. Uh. He was renowned in the Navy

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Speaker 1: for ending helping to end raised gender discrimination the Navy.

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Speaker 1: And actually when he was fighting in the Vietnam War,

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Speaker 1: he uh he was responsible for for dumping some agent

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Speaker 1: orange on this area called the Makong Delta. And what

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Speaker 1: he wanted to do was was helped to expose the

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Speaker 1: snipers that were killing a lot of Americans there. But

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Speaker 1: as it happened. His son, Elma third, was actually commanding

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Speaker 1: a boat in that area and he was exposed to

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Speaker 1: the agent orange. That was that his father was responsible

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Speaker 1: for dumping. UM. So when the war ended, Elma the

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Speaker 1: third came home and UH he had a child, his son,

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Speaker 1: Elmo the fourth, and UH he was actually uh showed

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Speaker 1: UM he suffers from a significant learning disability as a result.

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Speaker 1: They think of this agent orange exposure and UH and

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Speaker 1: later Elmo the third, the son of of of Zamat Junior,

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Speaker 1: actually died of cancer and they think that was a

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Speaker 1: result of the agent orange exposure as well. But before

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Speaker 1: he died, father and son wrote a book about their

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Speaker 1: experiences in Vietnam. And the father was an admiral and

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Speaker 1: his son was of a lesser rank. But together they

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Speaker 1: came up with a unified opinion that while agent orange

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Speaker 1: did cause destruction, and yes, in fact, it was responsible

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Speaker 1: for the third and the fourth's health problems, it also

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Speaker 1: saved many lives of American soldiers in the war because

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Speaker 1: it did cut down on the foliage, and it did

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Speaker 1: expose snipers, and it did expose you know, UM troops

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Speaker 1: station along the supply roads. And UH. While the Admiral

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Speaker 1: later on became an advocate for helping people get compensation

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Speaker 1: for agent orange prone injuries or diseases and things like that.

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Speaker 1: You know, he pointed out what was on everyone's mind,

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Speaker 1: and that was that this was such a sticky situation.

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Speaker 1: You know, did we do we condone the use of

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Speaker 1: agent orange or do we allowed it and say it

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Speaker 1: was a necessary war casualty for the enemy? Do we

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Speaker 1: blame the government? Should we get reparations for it? And

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Speaker 1: this has actually been a big issue in court. Back

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Speaker 1: in four there was a class action lawsuit brought against

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Speaker 1: seven companies who were disseminators of agent orange, and they

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Speaker 1: essentially were charged with not giving full disclosure to the

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Speaker 1: government about what was in this chemical, how it should

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Speaker 1: be used, and the government, I think maybe because of this,

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Speaker 1: wasn't as careful as it should have been when using

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Speaker 1: it against civilians in Vietnam. You know, there was no

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Speaker 1: distinction given to using in land where there were no

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Speaker 1: civilians versus where they were Vietcong soldiers, and that's what

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Speaker 1: made it's so messy. But after this lawsuit, about one

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Speaker 1: hundred eighty million was allocated for two hundred people and

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Speaker 1: the finals, the final settlement came to two hundred forty

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Speaker 1: million after it had compounded interest, and the chemical companies

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Speaker 1: continued to be uh, targets of plaintiffs who came against them.

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't really use the word target, because that's not fair.

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Speaker 1: But they continued to have plaintiffs come to them and

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Speaker 1: say we need compensation, that our health issues now. But

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Speaker 1: they kept saying, well, you know, too much time has

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Speaker 1: passed for your claims, and you know, the government told

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Speaker 1: us to make these chemicals, and we're not really sure

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Speaker 1: what agent orange is caused and what health problems run

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Speaker 1: in your family. Yeah, what brings up the question like, well,

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Speaker 1: who else can we blame? I mean, maybe the military

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Speaker 1: is to blame and we should go to the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Government itself. And that actually has been a tough thing

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Speaker 1: to accomplish because the government has been able to hide

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Speaker 1: behind this idea of sovereign immunity, which is the idea

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Speaker 1: that the government cannot be sued, and the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: has has held it up in many situations, and so

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Speaker 1: it's made it very difficult for suffers of agent orange

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Speaker 1: to get recompense. Right, and so even if you can't

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Speaker 1: do the government, you can still lobby against the government

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Speaker 1: to go and clean up the mass from agent Orange's

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Speaker 1: still causing trouble and the soil today, and it's very

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Speaker 1: expensive to clean up as well is and there are

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Speaker 1: plenty of humanitarian and activist groups out there who were saying,

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Speaker 1: what you cleaned up all these land mines, now you

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Speaker 1: need to get back in there and clean out the

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Speaker 1: effects from agent orange as well. It's a good point.

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Speaker 1: So we're not really sure what's going to come of this.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we don't really know what sort of chemicals

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Speaker 1: are being used in wars today that are going to

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Speaker 1: continue to have lasting effects on generations. To comment's just,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's one of those things about war, and

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Speaker 1: it's another scary thing about science and what's developed a

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Speaker 1: theory in a lab. When it's actually put into practice

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Speaker 1: we can know the consequences. It's like a Pandora's box,

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Speaker 1: something you don't really know. What's in a beaker is

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Speaker 1: much different from what's being sprayed from an aircraft over Vietnam.

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Speaker 1: And we should mention too that agent orange was also

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Speaker 1: used again in the Korean War, not by the US

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Speaker 1: but by Korea, so that we have melodies and not

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Speaker 1: war as well. That's true. So you want to learn

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Speaker 1: more about Agent Orange and the Vietnam War and even

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Speaker 1: the scientific method, be sure to check out how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of

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Speaker 1: other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com Let

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Speaker 1: us know what should think. Send an email to podcast

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Speaker 1: and how Stuff We're that car