Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson
Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Frye. We talked about Kasimir Pulaski this week,
Speaker 1: whose name in Polish. Even with practicing, I feel like
Speaker 1: I said very badly the one time that I tried
Speaker 1: to say it.
Speaker 2: I wow.
Speaker 1: So, as I said at the top of the episode,
Speaker 1: he wound up on my shortlist back in twenty nineteen
Speaker 1: when that Smithsonian Channel episode was happening, I did not
Speaker 1: watch the episode at that time, so mostly what I
Speaker 1: had to go on was like the stuff that came
Speaker 1: out from Smithsonian Channel writing about it, news reporting about
Speaker 1: the thing, and I was really intrigued by the idea
Speaker 1: that this person who had fought, you know, been an
Speaker 1: officer in the Revolutionary War may have been intersex. But
Speaker 1: then doing the actual research into this episode, looking into
Speaker 1: it a lot farther, I feel like people are gonna
Speaker 1: come at me. I just don't think those are his
Speaker 1: bones from the monuments.
Speaker 2: I don't either. So while I.
Speaker 1: Appreciated the opportunity to talk again about how there have
Speaker 1: always been always all through history, all over the world,
Speaker 1: always people whose lives and whose bodies just don't line
Speaker 1: up with the place and time that they're living in
Speaker 1: terms of the sex and gender expectations.
Speaker 2: I just I don't think those are his bones.
Speaker 1: I said in the episode that I watched this Smithsonian
Speaker 1: Channel thing on the very last day of research, and
Speaker 1: the reason that it was on the very last day
Speaker 1: of research was that, like, in doing all of the reading,
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't think those are his bones.
Speaker 1: What did they actually say on this TV show about
Speaker 1: the DNA research? And it was mitochondrial DNA research, which
Speaker 1: has passed through the maternal line, and I couldn't find
Speaker 1: clarity on exactly what was said. There was just a
Speaker 1: lot of vagueness and the various writing about this TV
Speaker 1: show and the research that led into it, and so
Speaker 1: I was like, well, I guess I'm going to have
Speaker 1: to get Paramount plus to watch this thing, because that was.
Speaker 2: The place where it was available.
Speaker 1: And I watched it, and I had a lot of
Speaker 1: frustrations because a lot of the episode is not really about,
Speaker 1: like the DNA research is kind of the big capstone
Speaker 1: at the end, and the announcement of yes, there's a match,
Speaker 1: the big that's just the big reveal at the end
Speaker 1: of the episode, but a lot of the episode is
Speaker 1: more about building a case that this person could have
Speaker 1: been intersex, gotcha? And so they kept doing things like
Speaker 1: comparing portraits of Casimir Pulaski to a medical illustration illustrating
Speaker 1: someone who had congenital adrenal hyperplasia, and I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that doesn't really have anything to do with whose bones
Speaker 1: these are, or whether that was Casimir Pulaski, or whether
Speaker 1: like you're you're seeing a similarity between like an eighteenth
Speaker 1: century or maybe nineteenth century from later on portrait and
Speaker 1: a medical text illustration like this, that's not really proving anything, right,
Speaker 1: But you understand that's the narrative structure, is it there? Ye,
Speaker 1: building the audience to want them to be that right, right,
Speaker 1: want that outcome for the bones.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: There was a portion of the episode where they had
Speaker 1: an intersex person dress in the uniform of what he
Speaker 1: would have worn, and I was like, this is also
Speaker 1: not about the DNA research. You only wanted a half
Speaker 1: hour show of DNA results. Yeah, I wanted.
Speaker 2: I really though.
Speaker 1: That was the only thing that I was really there
Speaker 1: for was to find out, like, what did they actually
Speaker 1: say about this DNA research. And then when they got
Speaker 1: to that moment in the show and the answer was
Speaker 1: there's a match between this talis bone and this other bone,
Speaker 1: I was like, I think I said what out loud
Speaker 1: because that is not what I thought was going to happen.
Speaker 1: I was expecting that it was going to be something
Speaker 1: else that was inconclusive, and that it was just going
Speaker 1: to sort of be like based on all of this
Speaker 1: other stuff that we have talked about over the course
Speaker 1: of this episode than this, right, but that when they
Speaker 1: were like, no, this is this there's a match, I
Speaker 1: was very surprised. Oh see, this makes total sense to me,
Speaker 1: and how you would write an episode like that for
Speaker 1: television It does to me too, But it was still irritating.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense? Like I feel like, you know,
Speaker 2: they know.
Speaker 1: What answer is coming, and they need to make it
Speaker 1: such that by the time you land the plane there
Speaker 1: the audience can accept that information. Yeah, because otherwise there
Speaker 1: are just one bazillion questions that will irritate other people
Speaker 1: of like, wait, so what did he look like in
Speaker 1: his uniform? Are you sure nobody knew?
Speaker 2: How did this? You know what I mean? Like, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's really why they're writing it that way.
Speaker 1: It was one of those things where I was like,
Speaker 1: I understand how these shows work, and I like, I
Speaker 1: understand how a one hour documentary TV show, Like I
Speaker 1: understand conceptually what's happening, but I still found a lot
Speaker 1: of it very frustrating. I also, the tests that were
Speaker 1: done on these they were not in any way non invasive.
Speaker 1: It was like drill a sample out of the bone, right,
Speaker 1: and that's there. Has you know, have been less invasive
Speaker 1: methods for things that were done that have been developed
Speaker 1: in the more recent years, but this was that's not
Speaker 1: what was done in this anyway. I just I by
Speaker 1: the time I finished watching it, I was like, I
Speaker 1: I needed to watch this so that I could understand
Speaker 1: what was actually set, like what was said and what
Speaker 1: was the substantiation for what was said. But then I
Speaker 1: was like, I wish I hadn't had to spend an
Speaker 1: hour of my life on that. I'm going to ask
Speaker 1: you a question that's going to sound obnoxious. Okay, why
Speaker 1: didn't you just jump to the end?
Speaker 2: Then? Why didn't I just.
Speaker 1: At the end, Because I mean, it might just be
Speaker 1: like the result of my kind of ADHD brain.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm not If I'm not in it, I'm
Speaker 2: not in it.
Speaker 1: I'm going to step ahead and see what I can
Speaker 1: find that actually like hits the dopamine receptors and get out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I I I didn't know that there was
Speaker 1: not going to be useful material in the rest of
Speaker 1: the episode until I had seen it. What I really
Speaker 1: would have appreciated it would be if there had been
Speaker 1: a publicly available transcript of it that I could have
Speaker 1: just read through you, because that would have gotten a
Speaker 1: lot faster and it would not have had the things
Speaker 1: about it that it would not have had some of
Speaker 1: the things in it that would have frustrated me. So anyway,
Speaker 1: and now I have Paramount Plus things that I can watch, Well,
Speaker 1: it's a good Star Trek time coming to you. It
Speaker 1: is a lot of Star Trek time. And it was
Speaker 1: a weird irony because Patrick and I had just gone
Speaker 1: through our streaming services and we had weeded things out
Speaker 1: because we were subscribing to a lot, a lot of them,
Speaker 1: and I was the only one at that moment who
Speaker 1: was watching anything on Paramount Plus. And both of the
Speaker 1: things that I was watching had gone on, like the
Speaker 1: mid season hiatus and I was like, we can just
Speaker 1: get rid of this and I will probably come back
Speaker 1: to it at some point later, and then not very
Speaker 1: long at all after that was, oh, I need to
Speaker 1: watch this thing from Smithsonian Channel, and.
Speaker 2: That's where I could watch it.
Speaker 1: So I was really interested in the way that Kasimir
Speaker 1: Pulaski has been talked about, like as a figure from
Speaker 1: the American Revolution, as a figure related to like Polish
Speaker 1: immigration and Polish national pride, Polish American pride, all of that.
Speaker 1: Multiple articles that I read that talked about that talked
Speaker 1: about how today is Koshuko whose name I'm pronouncing that's,
Speaker 1: to the best of my ability, was a more influential
Speaker 1: and important figure in terms of Polish people in the
Speaker 1: Revolutionary War. And there were like at least three or
Speaker 1: four different articles that were like, he probably didn't get
Speaker 1: as much attention because his name is a lot harder
Speaker 1: for English speakers to say, And I was like, that, honestly,
Speaker 1: probably true, and it's sort of made it made a
Speaker 1: layer of it, like sense making how this person who
Speaker 1: was had such a reputation for being kind of arrogant
Speaker 1: and quarrelsome and writing long letters to the Continental Congress
Speaker 1: that are like you are treating me very very badly.
Speaker 1: Wound up being kind of the illustrative example of Polish
Speaker 1: involvement in the Revolutionary War, Right, you're doing it wrong.
Speaker 1: The Kasimir Pulaski story, Laski story. Yeah, yeah, just yeah. Also,
Speaker 1: I am aware of Sufyan Stevens's album Illinois's Illinois that
Speaker 1: then became stage production. There is a song on it
Speaker 1: about Kasimir Pulaski Day. I know that exists. I probably
Speaker 1: own that album. I just i'd imagine getting lots of
Speaker 1: emails from listeners saying, are you aware that there's a
Speaker 1: Kasimir Pulaski Day song on this album? Yes, I know,
Speaker 1: I'm aware. Anyway, I don't think I have anything further
Speaker 1: to say.
Speaker 2: How about all of this.
Speaker 1: I'm just tickled by what a pill he apparently was
Speaker 1: to everybody. Yeah, well, and that he was not the
Speaker 1: only officer from Europe who had that reputation, right. There's
Speaker 1: definitely a cultural, yea clashing element problem to all of that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And this is something that may or may not come
Speaker 1: up again on a reasonably near future episode that I
Speaker 1: don't know if it will happen or not. But a
Speaker 1: sort of about the difference between the professional standing armies
Speaker 1: of Europe and the Continental Army, which especially in the
Speaker 1: early years, was like just volunteers who had maybe been
Speaker 1: out drilling with their militia two or three times a
Speaker 1: year if they were very young, they might have done
Speaker 1: that one time or no times, and were up against
Speaker 1: armies that had been you know, drilling and practicing and
Speaker 1: subjected to continual discipline for for years of their lives.
Speaker 1: And then a bunch of guys just doing their best. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a bunch of guys doing their best. So you had
Speaker 1: officers coming over from a tradition of you know, ongoing
Speaker 1: service and discipline in a standing army to you know,
Speaker 1: volunteer militia members doing their best. So anyway, maybe that
Speaker 1: episode will happen, maybe not. I have not figured it
Speaker 1: out yet. Talked about Rebecca Smith Pollard this week on
Speaker 1: the show. I said this kind of off Mike in
Speaker 1: and aside. I did not know about the anti Toime
Speaker 1: novel when I picked this, and it reminded me of
Speaker 1: when we chose and Royal as a live show topic,
Speaker 1: and we had all already like we had advertised the
Speaker 1: we had advertised the live show, we had had t
Speaker 1: shirts made for the live show, and then I was like, Oops,
Speaker 1: there is racism I did not know about in this
Speaker 1: That is troubling to me. And I would not have
Speaker 1: chosen for a live show topic had I known ahead
Speaker 1: of time that that was going to happen, because I mean,
Speaker 1: we are we don't shy away from discussing that on
Speaker 1: the show. No, but live show episodes are supposed to
Speaker 1: be fun in theory. Yeah, that one was not. Really
Speaker 1: we haven't really done a live show in a while.
Speaker 1: But this sort of similarly, even though I was looking
Speaker 1: for things that were not like Raw Raw USA USA
Speaker 1: to potentially tie into America's two fifty, I would not
Speaker 1: necessarily have picked one that or we would need to
Speaker 1: discuss Anti Tom novels at length. Holly, do you remember
Speaker 1: learning how to read a little?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if I had a similar situation to you.
Speaker 1: I about to find out a little frustrated at the
Speaker 1: pace of instruction. Oh okay, I took matters into my
Speaker 1: own hand. Okay, So my mom read to me a lot,
Speaker 1: and really the only television that I was allowed to
Speaker 1: watch as a small child was Sesame Street and Mister Rogers,
Speaker 1: and that was it, And through the combination of Sesame Street,
Speaker 1: Mister Rogers, and my mother reading to me, I walked
Speaker 1: into the kitchen one day when I was four and said,
Speaker 1: I can read, and my mom said, I don't think so,
Speaker 1: and I sat down and read her There's a Monster
Speaker 1: at the end of this book, which is the book
Speaker 1: that she read to me every night because it was
Speaker 1: my favorite. And my mom was like, I think you
Speaker 1: have that book memorized. So I went into another part
Speaker 1: of the house and like pulled a book off the
Speaker 1: shelf that I had never been exposed to before that I.
Speaker 2: Think was like.
Speaker 1: A school textbook that had been handed down from somewhere.
Speaker 1: Like it wasn't it wasn't a novel, it wasn't anything
Speaker 1: that I had ever read. But I took that into
Speaker 1: the kitchen and just opened it to a page and
Speaker 1: started reading from it, and my mom kind of went, Okay,
Speaker 1: I guess you can't actually read. Then I stand corrected,
Speaker 1: which is evidence of both my existence as an early
Speaker 1: reader and also the fact that I had to be right.
Speaker 1: Mine is early evidence of what a little shrew I was,
Speaker 1: which is come up many times. But I remember I
Speaker 1: have older siblings significantly older than me, and I remember
Speaker 1: at one point in time one of my siblings thought
Speaker 1: they were gonna have didactic time with Holly, and they
Speaker 1: had like sat down and done this thing where they
Speaker 1: were like gonna teach me the word cat and how
Speaker 1: to read it, and I apparently just looked at them
Speaker 1: and said, do you think I'm stupid? I was similarly
Speaker 1: around four or five, yeah, real early, yeah, with like
Speaker 1: the police done with this. I also remember distinctly there
Speaker 1: was a I don't know if it was like a
Speaker 1: yard sale or a second hand shot, but I remember
Speaker 1: being quite tiny and looking through books at a secondhand situation, huh,
Speaker 1: and picking out a bunch and my mom kind of
Speaker 1: just buying them for me without really like perusing what
Speaker 1: they were sure, and a lot of them were like
Speaker 1: spelling and reading instruction books, and I just kind of, yeah,
Speaker 1: had my own little private classroom in my room that
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody realized.
Speaker 2: Was going on. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I grew into one of those kids that got in
Speaker 1: trouble for reading in class, oh when I was not
Speaker 1: supposed to be doing that, or reading ahead of what
Speaker 1: we were supposed to be reading out loud. Because I
Speaker 1: read a lot faster in my head that out loud.
Speaker 1: And even though I already knew how to read when
Speaker 1: I started in kindergarten, Like, I very viscerally remember the
Speaker 1: process of sounding things out and being taught to sound
Speaker 1: things out when when I came into a word that
Speaker 1: I did not know, And so when I learned that
Speaker 1: there's kind of a generation of kids that didn't really
Speaker 1: learn that at all, yeah, I was like, what do
Speaker 1: you mean? And I do want to say that, like,
Speaker 1: I don't think there's one way of teaching that works
Speaker 1: for everybody, Like there are a lot of kids that
Speaker 1: have disabilities or learning differences or whatever that like make
Speaker 1: one particular thing just not work for them, and some
Speaker 1: other form of instruction is necessary. So I think that's
Speaker 1: part of it too. But the idea that there was
Speaker 1: just no phonics, I was like, what do you mean? Yeah,
Speaker 1: what do you mean people didn't learn how to sound
Speaker 1: things out?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I feel like I got more of the at least
Speaker 1: in like the class work that I was exposed to
Speaker 1: was more of the word whole word stuff. But a
Speaker 1: lot of my like interest in reading was just driven
Speaker 1: by wanting to know things.
Speaker 2: Oh sure, yeah, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like that was and it wasn't necessarily stuff I was
Speaker 1: going to get taught in school. Yeah, so I would
Speaker 1: just be proactive about it, and I don't write bossy and.
Speaker 2: What do you think I'm stupid?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what a brat. Pollard's methods and the level
Speaker 1: of granularity in all of the different phonemes does sound
Speaker 1: to me kind of tedious. The fact that there was
Speaker 1: so much that she just called busy work. I don't
Speaker 1: know if other people were calling things busy work in
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century that was just like part of the lingo,
Speaker 1: But the fact that it was called busy work, I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, this does sound like busy work to me.
Speaker 1: Marking all of the phonemes and your reader. Oh but
Speaker 1: those kids, like their level of mastery was probably like
Speaker 1: so far ahead of anybody else in.
Speaker 2: Their age group. Yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker 1: Sometimes that stuff that feels like busy work is really
Speaker 1: like drilling things in a way that you will never
Speaker 1: ever in your life.
Speaker 2: Forget it for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Side note.
Speaker 1: I went to Stratford upon Avon on my trip to England,
Speaker 1: and I went to the schoolroom where Shakespeare would have
Speaker 1: gone to school. I'm not actually sure if there's evidence
Speaker 1: that he did go to school there, but it would
Speaker 1: have been the school he would have gone to. And
Speaker 1: it is a school that's still in operation, and they
Speaker 1: don't start tours until eleven because there is a morning
Speaker 1: class that meets in the classroom, the historic classroom that's
Speaker 1: still there. And the tour group did just sort of
Speaker 1: a little simulation of how students would have learned by
Speaker 1: wrote through memorizing things. Yeah, which is not at all
Speaker 1: how it worked when we memorized things when I was
Speaker 1: a child. You faced the person across for you, and
Speaker 1: you set it into each other's faces over and over.
Speaker 1: I was face to face with someone who I think
Speaker 1: may have also been there by herself, and had a
Speaker 1: tote bag that said, though, but she is little, she
Speaker 1: is fierce. I'm saying that wrong, but anyway Shakespeare quote, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it is those though she'd be but little,
Speaker 1: she is fierce.
Speaker 2: It sounds right. I think that's right.
Speaker 1: I suddenly needed to call it up into memory and
Speaker 1: it wasn't there anyway. Though she'd be but little, yeah,
Speaker 1: those she'd be, but little, Yeah, she is fierce. I
Speaker 1: will work it out. We'll get there. A couple of
Speaker 1: things to talk about. What the poem, the trist poem
Speaker 1: that she and another poet each wrote to one another
Speaker 1: and had published in the journal.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel a modern reader reading this today would go,
Speaker 1: that is the most sapphic thing I have ever seen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, in the era when it was published, if
Speaker 1: anybody had thought that, it wouldn't have been in the newspaper.
Speaker 1: But it also had this note from the editor which
Speaker 1: did not really fit in that moment in the episode.
Speaker 1: But I found I don't know, it's said quotes our
Speaker 1: gallantry is shocked at the thought of the spirits of
Speaker 1: two charming young menstrual girls wandering about at midnight by
Speaker 1: themselves in this bad world without a protector. And I
Speaker 1: was like, they were they were not actually outside. I
Speaker 1: know that, and you know that. But I think this
Speaker 1: was him going, of course, we don't want young ladies
Speaker 1: to do this, because he was anticipating the people that
Speaker 1: were going to write in and be like, why would
Speaker 1: you suggest this, And instead of going they're not really
Speaker 1: doing that. This is a theoretic galbal he could just go,
Speaker 1: of course, we would of course not ever never.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The other thing that I had noted here was just that,
Speaker 1: Like we have talked before, it has come up on
Speaker 1: the show, like in almost side mentions of people people
Speaker 1: who were enslavers but also fiercely against secession from the
Speaker 1: Union during the Civil War, and like that has just
Speaker 1: sort of come up in passing sometimes. And this I
Speaker 1: think is the first time that I have really been
Speaker 1: reading the thoughts of somebody who apparently was anti abolition
Speaker 1: but also a staunch, staunch unionist. It's a weird, a
Speaker 1: weird tangle to wrap your head around. I have series
Speaker 1: here they are, and you had thoughts about this that
Speaker 1: you were going to share. I really really do. I
Speaker 1: think this is purely my conjecture. I didn't even do
Speaker 1: the research for this episode, but based on all of
Speaker 1: the information we have about her, I feel like she
Speaker 1: might have been a case of one of those people
Speaker 1: who is a very clever person, probably got told as
Speaker 1: much a lot growing up, and when she hears new information,
Speaker 1: she digests it and thinks it through and then has
Speaker 1: ideas about it. And because she's a very clever person,
Speaker 1: people encourage her to voice those ideas without necessarily really
Speaker 1: talking through what it all means. And I bet that
Speaker 1: that's part of why she went on her little weird
Speaker 1: tyret because then later on in her life she seems
Speaker 1: to have taken a different stance.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my only thinking.
Speaker 1: I suspect she was young and processing information she had
Speaker 1: a hand somewhat influential in her life had said like,
Speaker 1: these people are ruining the union with their oh, sure
Speaker 1: upstart ways, and she was like, you know what, they
Speaker 1: sure are. I didn't really like get through all of
Speaker 1: the bigger picture stuff about what was going on.
Speaker 2: That's my guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can definitely say I held some opinions in
Speaker 1: my teams in early twenties that were bad.
Speaker 2: We all did, like, very bad.
Speaker 1: And when I was Yeah, when I was exposed to
Speaker 1: other information, I was like, oh, that is a bad opinion.
Speaker 2: I will say.
Speaker 1: There will probably be something between now and the end
Speaker 1: of my life that I think right now that I
Speaker 1: will be like, oh, that was a bad opinion that
Speaker 1: I had. Yeah, now I've learned from that. And that
Speaker 1: was one of the reasons that I kind of went
Speaker 1: to try to see, like what were her thoughts on
Speaker 1: this later.
Speaker 2: I'm also not.
Speaker 1: Fully clear, but the parts of this novel that I read,
Speaker 1: there are conversations that happen that are it's clear which
Speaker 1: side is the side that she is setting up as
Speaker 1: the correct side, right, But then there are conversations that
Speaker 1: it like one of the characters will be basically saying, hey,
Speaker 1: these are people like we are we are all human beings, right?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, are are you on the we're all
Speaker 1: human beings side? Because it kind of sounds like you
Speaker 1: might be from this passage. Are you more concerned with
Speaker 1: this idea of preserving the union and that's what drive
Speaker 1: That's what's driving it rather than being like explicitly pro
Speaker 1: slavery for racist reasons that you know that there were
Speaker 1: also people that had those opinions. And I really didn't
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of that. And I might have
Speaker 1: if I had been willing to read the entire book,
Speaker 1: but that was too much. It was too much. She
Speaker 1: had just enough information to be dangerous. I'm telling you, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I believe it advice. So yeah, she's a complicated person
Speaker 1: who the fact that she from what I can understand,
Speaker 1: she put together this instructional method that was very motivated
Speaker 1: by what she thought actually helped children learn and also
Speaker 1: making sure teachers had what they needed to be able
Speaker 1: to teach. Yeah, that part I thought was really good, terrific. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, even though I sort of think the amount
Speaker 1: of diacritical marking of textbooks might have been a little
Speaker 1: much maybe maybe.
Speaker 2: Maybe, But also I'm telling you, those kids knew their stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway, those Rebecca Smith Pollard, Uh, whatever's coming
Speaker 1: up for you on the weekend. We you know, I
Speaker 1: hope it's great. There was just a strange noise outside
Speaker 1: my house, and I hope that's not a harbinger of anything. Oh,
Speaker 1: is there any strange thing is happening in your world?
Speaker 1: I hope none of them are harbingers of worse things
Speaker 1: to come, and that everything that's coming your way is
Speaker 1: going to be better than what was before. We will
Speaker 1: be back on Monday with a brand new episode, and
Speaker 1: tomorrow we'll be back with a Saturday classic. Stuff you
Speaker 1: Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For
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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.