WEBVTT - Behind the Scenes Minis: Unexpected Information 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:14.560 of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:19.600 and I'm Holly Frye. We talked about Kasimir Pulaski this week, 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:22.799 whose name in Polish. Even with practicing, I feel like 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.160 I said very badly the one time that I tried 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:26.600 to say it. 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:30.600 I wow. 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:33.480 So, as I said at the top of the episode, 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:36.960 he wound up on my shortlist back in twenty nineteen 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:42.360 when that Smithsonian Channel episode was happening, I did not 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.040 watch the episode at that time, so mostly what I 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.559 had to go on was like the stuff that came 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:52.600 out from Smithsonian Channel writing about it, news reporting about 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:56.440 the thing, and I was really intrigued by the idea 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:00.880 that this person who had fought, you know, been an 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:04.920 officer in the Revolutionary War may have been intersex. But 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:09.560 then doing the actual research into this episode, looking into 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.720 it a lot farther, I feel like people are gonna 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.440 come at me. I just don't think those are his 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:16.840 bones from the monuments. 0:01:17.240 --> 0:01:19.319 I don't either. So while I. 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:27.120 Appreciated the opportunity to talk again about how there have 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:30.520 always been always all through history, all over the world, 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.240 always people whose lives and whose bodies just don't line 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:36.560 up with the place and time that they're living in 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:39.800 terms of the sex and gender expectations. 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:42.080 I just I don't think those are his bones. 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.960 I said in the episode that I watched this Smithsonian 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:50.280 Channel thing on the very last day of research, and 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:52.040 the reason that it was on the very last day 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.600 of research was that, like, in doing all of the reading, 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:57.800 I was like, I don't think those are his bones. 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:03.160 What did they actually say on this TV show about 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.920 the DNA research? And it was mitochondrial DNA research, which 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.680 has passed through the maternal line, and I couldn't find 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:16.720 clarity on exactly what was said. There was just a 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:21.440 lot of vagueness and the various writing about this TV 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:24.280 show and the research that led into it, and so 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.160 I was like, well, I guess I'm going to have 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:31.360 to get Paramount plus to watch this thing, because that was. 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:32.640 The place where it was available. 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.800 And I watched it, and I had a lot of 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:41.720 frustrations because a lot of the episode is not really about, 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.519 like the DNA research is kind of the big capstone 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:48.240 at the end, and the announcement of yes, there's a match, 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:50.480 the big that's just the big reveal at the end 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:52.880 of the episode, but a lot of the episode is 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:57.360 more about building a case that this person could have 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:02.280 been intersex, gotcha? And so they kept doing things like 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:10.120 comparing portraits of Casimir Pulaski to a medical illustration illustrating 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:15.400 someone who had congenital adrenal hyperplasia, and I was like, Okay, 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:20.360 that doesn't really have anything to do with whose bones 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:25.360 these are, or whether that was Casimir Pulaski, or whether 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:30.919 like you're you're seeing a similarity between like an eighteenth 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:35.240 century or maybe nineteenth century from later on portrait and 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:41.119 a medical text illustration like this, that's not really proving anything, right, 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:44.160 But you understand that's the narrative structure, is it there? Ye, 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.160 building the audience to want them to be that right, right, 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:50.120 want that outcome for the bones. 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:51.200 Yeah. 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.600 There was a portion of the episode where they had 0:03:55.800 --> 0:04:01.400 an intersex person dress in the uniform of what he 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.280 would have worn, and I was like, this is also 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:08.480 not about the DNA research. You only wanted a half 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.360 hour show of DNA results. Yeah, I wanted. 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:12.400 I really though. 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:14.240 That was the only thing that I was really there 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:16.839 for was to find out, like, what did they actually 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.479 say about this DNA research. And then when they got 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.599 to that moment in the show and the answer was 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:24.320 there's a match between this talis bone and this other bone, 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.359 I was like, I think I said what out loud 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.120 because that is not what I thought was going to happen. 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.440 I was expecting that it was going to be something 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:34.920 else that was inconclusive, and that it was just going 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:36.520 to sort of be like based on all of this 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:38.360 other stuff that we have talked about over the course 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.000 of this episode than this, right, but that when they 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.400 were like, no, this is this there's a match, I 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.560 was very surprised. Oh see, this makes total sense to me, 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:49.359 and how you would write an episode like that for 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:53.240 television It does to me too, But it was still irritating. 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.680 Does that make sense? Like I feel like, you know, 0:04:58.000 --> 0:04:58.480 they know. 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:02.760 What answer is coming, and they need to make it 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:06.320 such that by the time you land the plane there 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:11.080 the audience can accept that information. Yeah, because otherwise there 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.240 are just one bazillion questions that will irritate other people 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:16.800 of like, wait, so what did he look like in 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.159 his uniform? Are you sure nobody knew? 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.920 How did this? You know what I mean? Like, Yeah, 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:23.719 that's really why they're writing it that way. 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:25.919 It was one of those things where I was like, 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.599 I understand how these shows work, and I like, I 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:33.360 understand how a one hour documentary TV show, Like I 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:37.680 understand conceptually what's happening, but I still found a lot 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:43.000 of it very frustrating. I also, the tests that were 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:45.720 done on these they were not in any way non invasive. 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.440 It was like drill a sample out of the bone, right, 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.640 and that's there. Has you know, have been less invasive 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.040 methods for things that were done that have been developed 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.240 in the more recent years, but this was that's not 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.480 what was done in this anyway. I just I by 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.240 the time I finished watching it, I was like, I 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:07.960 I needed to watch this so that I could understand 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.359 what was actually set, like what was said and what 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:12.880 was the substantiation for what was said. But then I 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:15.440 was like, I wish I hadn't had to spend an 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.640 hour of my life on that. I'm going to ask 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.640 you a question that's going to sound obnoxious. Okay, why 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:21.720 didn't you just jump to the end? 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:23.440 Then? Why didn't I just. 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:28.719 At the end, Because I mean, it might just be 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.159 like the result of my kind of ADHD brain. 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.240 I'm like, I'm not If I'm not in it, I'm 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:34.720 not in it. 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:36.400 I'm going to step ahead and see what I can 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:40.640 find that actually like hits the dopamine receptors and get out. Yeah, 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:45.320 I think I I I didn't know that there was 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.479 not going to be useful material in the rest of 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.799 the episode until I had seen it. What I really 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.080 would have appreciated it would be if there had been 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:58.960 a publicly available transcript of it that I could have 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:00.720 just read through you, because that would have gotten a 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.279 lot faster and it would not have had the things 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:06.839 about it that it would not have had some of 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:09.560 the things in it that would have frustrated me. So anyway, 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:16.440 and now I have Paramount Plus things that I can watch, Well, 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:18.240 it's a good Star Trek time coming to you. It 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:20.280 is a lot of Star Trek time. And it was 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.160 a weird irony because Patrick and I had just gone 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.240 through our streaming services and we had weeded things out 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.240 because we were subscribing to a lot, a lot of them, 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:32.160 and I was the only one at that moment who 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:34.680 was watching anything on Paramount Plus. And both of the 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:37.080 things that I was watching had gone on, like the 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:39.480 mid season hiatus and I was like, we can just 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:41.720 get rid of this and I will probably come back 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:44.720 to it at some point later, and then not very 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.000 long at all after that was, oh, I need to 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.400 watch this thing from Smithsonian Channel, and. 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:50.920 That's where I could watch it. 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:57.280 So I was really interested in the way that Kasimir 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.800 Pulaski has been talked about, like as a figure from 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:06.280 the American Revolution, as a figure related to like Polish 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:11.000 immigration and Polish national pride, Polish American pride, all of that. 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:16.120 Multiple articles that I read that talked about that talked 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:22.000 about how today is Koshuko whose name I'm pronouncing that's, 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:27.320 to the best of my ability, was a more influential 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:32.000 and important figure in terms of Polish people in the 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:36.400 Revolutionary War. And there were like at least three or 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:40.080 four different articles that were like, he probably didn't get 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.440 as much attention because his name is a lot harder 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:49.120 for English speakers to say, And I was like, that, honestly, 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:54.600 probably true, and it's sort of made it made a 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.760 layer of it, like sense making how this person who 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:02.080 was had such a reputation for being kind of arrogant 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:06.880 and quarrelsome and writing long letters to the Continental Congress 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.560 that are like you are treating me very very badly. 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:15.880 Wound up being kind of the illustrative example of Polish 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:19.760 involvement in the Revolutionary War, Right, you're doing it wrong. 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:28.120 The Kasimir Pulaski story, Laski story. Yeah, yeah, just yeah. Also, 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:32.080 I am aware of Sufyan Stevens's album Illinois's Illinois that 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.720 then became stage production. There is a song on it 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:40.760 about Kasimir Pulaski Day. I know that exists. I probably 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.400 own that album. I just i'd imagine getting lots of 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:49.800 emails from listeners saying, are you aware that there's a 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.280 Kasimir Pulaski Day song on this album? Yes, I know, 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:58.240 I'm aware. Anyway, I don't think I have anything further 0:09:58.360 --> 0:09:58.960 to say. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.000 How about all of this. 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.440 I'm just tickled by what a pill he apparently was 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:10.240 to everybody. Yeah, well, and that he was not the 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:15.160 only officer from Europe who had that reputation, right. There's 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:20.840 definitely a cultural, yea clashing element problem to all of that. Yeah, 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.160 And this is something that may or may not come 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:28.080 up again on a reasonably near future episode that I 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:30.199 don't know if it will happen or not. But a 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.840 sort of about the difference between the professional standing armies 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.360 of Europe and the Continental Army, which especially in the 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:42.240 early years, was like just volunteers who had maybe been 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:44.679 out drilling with their militia two or three times a 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:49.600 year if they were very young, they might have done 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.280 that one time or no times, and were up against 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.600 armies that had been you know, drilling and practicing and 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:01.840 subjected to continual discipline for for years of their lives. 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:06.480 And then a bunch of guys just doing their best. Yeah, 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:08.840 a bunch of guys doing their best. So you had 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.520 officers coming over from a tradition of you know, ongoing 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:17.840 service and discipline in a standing army to you know, 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:25.160 volunteer militia members doing their best. So anyway, maybe that 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.000 episode will happen, maybe not. I have not figured it 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:40.520 out yet. Talked about Rebecca Smith Pollard this week on 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:45.360 the show. I said this kind of off Mike in 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.920 and aside. I did not know about the anti Toime 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:53.480 novel when I picked this, and it reminded me of 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:58.200 when we chose and Royal as a live show topic, 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:04.320 and we had all already like we had advertised the 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.640 we had advertised the live show, we had had t 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:12.400 shirts made for the live show, and then I was like, Oops, 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:16.719 there is racism I did not know about in this 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.240 That is troubling to me. And I would not have 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.720 chosen for a live show topic had I known ahead 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:26.440 of time that that was going to happen, because I mean, 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.200 we are we don't shy away from discussing that on 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.720 the show. No, but live show episodes are supposed to 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.880 be fun in theory. Yeah, that one was not. Really 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:38.960 we haven't really done a live show in a while. 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.880 But this sort of similarly, even though I was looking 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.680 for things that were not like Raw Raw USA USA 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:51.360 to potentially tie into America's two fifty, I would not 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.480 necessarily have picked one that or we would need to 0:12:54.520 --> 0:13:00.640 discuss Anti Tom novels at length. Holly, do you remember 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.560 learning how to read a little? 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:04.800 Okay? 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.240 I'm wondering if I had a similar situation to you. 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:12.160 I about to find out a little frustrated at the 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.960 pace of instruction. Oh okay, I took matters into my 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:23.040 own hand. Okay, So my mom read to me a lot, 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:27.480 and really the only television that I was allowed to 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:31.080 watch as a small child was Sesame Street and Mister Rogers, 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:35.920 and that was it, And through the combination of Sesame Street, 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.280 Mister Rogers, and my mother reading to me, I walked 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:42.080 into the kitchen one day when I was four and said, 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:46.040 I can read, and my mom said, I don't think so, 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.720 and I sat down and read her There's a Monster 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:51.720 at the end of this book, which is the book 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.640 that she read to me every night because it was 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:57.960 my favorite. And my mom was like, I think you 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:02.200 have that book memorized. So I went into another part 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:04.280 of the house and like pulled a book off the 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:09.199 shelf that I had never been exposed to before that I. 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:09.960 Think was like. 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:16.319 A school textbook that had been handed down from somewhere. 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.200 Like it wasn't it wasn't a novel, it wasn't anything 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:21.320 that I had ever read. But I took that into 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:23.720 the kitchen and just opened it to a page and 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.640 started reading from it, and my mom kind of went, Okay, 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:32.080 I guess you can't actually read. Then I stand corrected, 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.640 which is evidence of both my existence as an early 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.080 reader and also the fact that I had to be right. 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.320 Mine is early evidence of what a little shrew I was, 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.720 which is come up many times. But I remember I 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:47.960 have older siblings significantly older than me, and I remember 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.120 at one point in time one of my siblings thought 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:54.040 they were gonna have didactic time with Holly, and they 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.680 had like sat down and done this thing where they 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:02.000 were like gonna teach me the word cat and how 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:05.000 to read it, and I apparently just looked at them 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:09.480 and said, do you think I'm stupid? I was similarly 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:14.720 around four or five, yeah, real early, yeah, with like 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:17.760 the police done with this. I also remember distinctly there 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:19.520 was a I don't know if it was like a 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.520 yard sale or a second hand shot, but I remember 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:29.280 being quite tiny and looking through books at a secondhand situation, huh, 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.120 and picking out a bunch and my mom kind of 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:35.440 just buying them for me without really like perusing what 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:38.840 they were sure, and a lot of them were like 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:43.160 spelling and reading instruction books, and I just kind of, yeah, 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.480 had my own little private classroom in my room that 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:48.200 I don't think anybody realized. 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.200 Was going on. Yeah. 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:52.760 I grew into one of those kids that got in 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:55.560 trouble for reading in class, oh when I was not 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.800 supposed to be doing that, or reading ahead of what 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.040 we were supposed to be reading out loud. Because I 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.360 read a lot faster in my head that out loud. 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:07.600 And even though I already knew how to read when 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:12.080 I started in kindergarten, Like, I very viscerally remember the 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.680 process of sounding things out and being taught to sound 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.880 things out when when I came into a word that 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:21.600 I did not know, And so when I learned that 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.360 there's kind of a generation of kids that didn't really 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:27.360 learn that at all, yeah, I was like, what do 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:29.520 you mean? And I do want to say that, like, 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.200 I don't think there's one way of teaching that works 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:35.600 for everybody, Like there are a lot of kids that 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:39.120 have disabilities or learning differences or whatever that like make 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.880 one particular thing just not work for them, and some 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.000 other form of instruction is necessary. So I think that's 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:48.360 part of it too. But the idea that there was 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.800 just no phonics, I was like, what do you mean? Yeah, 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:53.640 what do you mean people didn't learn how to sound 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:54.320 things out? 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:55.200 Yeah? 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:57.400 I feel like I got more of the at least 0:16:57.440 --> 0:16:59.480 in like the class work that I was exposed to 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:04.960 was more of the word whole word stuff. But a 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.760 lot of my like interest in reading was just driven 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:09.520 by wanting to know things. 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:11.400 Oh sure, yeah, you know what I mean? 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.080 Like that was and it wasn't necessarily stuff I was 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.320 going to get taught in school. Yeah, so I would 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:22.600 just be proactive about it, and I don't write bossy and. 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:25.280 What do you think I'm stupid? 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:34.720 Yeah, yeah, what a brat. Pollard's methods and the level 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:39.399 of granularity in all of the different phonemes does sound 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:43.240 to me kind of tedious. The fact that there was 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.440 so much that she just called busy work. I don't 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.800 know if other people were calling things busy work in 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.359 the nineteenth century that was just like part of the lingo, 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:52.879 But the fact that it was called busy work, I 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.000 was like, yeah, this does sound like busy work to me. 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.320 Marking all of the phonemes and your reader. Oh but 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:03.240 those kids, like their level of mastery was probably like 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.160 so far ahead of anybody else in. 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.000 Their age group. Yeah, that's the thing. 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.439 Sometimes that stuff that feels like busy work is really 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.160 like drilling things in a way that you will never 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:14.320 ever in your life. 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:18.200 Forget it for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Side note. 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:21.960 I went to Stratford upon Avon on my trip to England, 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.960 and I went to the schoolroom where Shakespeare would have 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:27.959 gone to school. I'm not actually sure if there's evidence 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:29.480 that he did go to school there, but it would 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.119 have been the school he would have gone to. And 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.360 it is a school that's still in operation, and they 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:37.919 don't start tours until eleven because there is a morning 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:42.240 class that meets in the classroom, the historic classroom that's 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:46.480 still there. And the tour group did just sort of 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:49.760 a little simulation of how students would have learned by 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:54.400 wrote through memorizing things. Yeah, which is not at all 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:57.480 how it worked when we memorized things when I was 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.480 a child. You faced the person across for you, and 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:04.360 you set it into each other's faces over and over. 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.160 I was face to face with someone who I think 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:13.040 may have also been there by herself, and had a 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:15.480 tote bag that said, though, but she is little, she 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:19.520 is fierce. I'm saying that wrong, but anyway Shakespeare quote, Yeah, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:21.520 I think it is those though she'd be but little, 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:22.080 she is fierce. 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:23.480 It sounds right. I think that's right. 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:25.800 I suddenly needed to call it up into memory and 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:30.400 it wasn't there anyway. Though she'd be but little, yeah, 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:33.119 those she'd be, but little, Yeah, she is fierce. I 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:44.239 will work it out. We'll get there. A couple of 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:51.679 things to talk about. What the poem, the trist poem 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.560 that she and another poet each wrote to one another 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:56.919 and had published in the journal. 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:58.320 Yeah. 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:02.000 I feel a modern reader reading this today would go, 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.360 that is the most sapphic thing I have ever seen. Yeah, 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:07.640 you know, in the era when it was published, if 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:10.240 anybody had thought that, it wouldn't have been in the newspaper. 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:16.119 But it also had this note from the editor which 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:19.879 did not really fit in that moment in the episode. 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.800 But I found I don't know, it's said quotes our 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:26.320 gallantry is shocked at the thought of the spirits of 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:31.160 two charming young menstrual girls wandering about at midnight by 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:35.600 themselves in this bad world without a protector. And I 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:41.040 was like, they were they were not actually outside. I 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:43.240 know that, and you know that. But I think this 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:47.360 was him going, of course, we don't want young ladies 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:53.399 to do this, because he was anticipating the people that 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:55.560 were going to write in and be like, why would 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.040 you suggest this, And instead of going they're not really 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:01.080 doing that. This is a theoretic galbal he could just go, 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:04.000 of course, we would of course not ever never. 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:06.639 Yeah. Yeah. 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:08.880 The other thing that I had noted here was just that, 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.240 Like we have talked before, it has come up on 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:16.160 the show, like in almost side mentions of people people 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:22.720 who were enslavers but also fiercely against secession from the 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:26.199 Union during the Civil War, and like that has just 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:29.000 sort of come up in passing sometimes. And this I 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.920 think is the first time that I have really been 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:37.720 reading the thoughts of somebody who apparently was anti abolition 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:43.840 but also a staunch, staunch unionist. It's a weird, a 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:47.359 weird tangle to wrap your head around. I have series 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:49.480 here they are, and you had thoughts about this that 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:54.280 you were going to share. I really really do. I 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:57.480 think this is purely my conjecture. I didn't even do 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:02.399 the research for this episode, but based on all of 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.760 the information we have about her, I feel like she 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:08.040 might have been a case of one of those people 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:13.239 who is a very clever person, probably got told as 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:17.480 much a lot growing up, and when she hears new information, 0:22:17.920 --> 0:22:21.200 she digests it and thinks it through and then has 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:24.520 ideas about it. And because she's a very clever person, 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:29.600 people encourage her to voice those ideas without necessarily really 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:33.040 talking through what it all means. And I bet that 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:37.399 that's part of why she went on her little weird 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:42.520 tyret because then later on in her life she seems 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:45.720 to have taken a different stance. 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:49.520 Yeah, that's my only thinking. 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:54.440 I suspect she was young and processing information she had 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:58.159 a hand somewhat influential in her life had said like, 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:03.080 these people are ruining the union with their oh, sure 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:05.760 upstart ways, and she was like, you know what, they 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:11.720 sure are. I didn't really like get through all of 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:15.440 the bigger picture stuff about what was going on. 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:17.360 That's my guess. 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:21.879 Yeah, I can definitely say I held some opinions in 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:24.879 my teams in early twenties that were bad. 0:23:25.359 --> 0:23:27.280 We all did, like, very bad. 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:30.280 And when I was Yeah, when I was exposed to 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:33.240 other information, I was like, oh, that is a bad opinion. 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:34.440 I will say. 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:37.439 There will probably be something between now and the end 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:39.439 of my life that I think right now that I 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:41.159