1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Frye. We talked about Kasimir Pulaski this week, 4 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: whose name in Polish. Even with practicing, I feel like 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: I said very badly the one time that I tried 6 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: to say it. 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: I wow. 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 1: So, as I said at the top of the episode, 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: he wound up on my shortlist back in twenty nineteen 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: when that Smithsonian Channel episode was happening, I did not 11 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: watch the episode at that time, so mostly what I 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: had to go on was like the stuff that came 13 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: out from Smithsonian Channel writing about it, news reporting about 14 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: the thing, and I was really intrigued by the idea 15 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: that this person who had fought, you know, been an 16 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: officer in the Revolutionary War may have been intersex. But 17 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: then doing the actual research into this episode, looking into 18 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: it a lot farther, I feel like people are gonna 19 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: come at me. I just don't think those are his 20 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: bones from the monuments. 21 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 2: I don't either. So while I. 22 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: Appreciated the opportunity to talk again about how there have 23 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: always been always all through history, all over the world, 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: always people whose lives and whose bodies just don't line 25 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: up with the place and time that they're living in 26 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: terms of the sex and gender expectations. 27 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 2: I just I don't think those are his bones. 28 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: I said in the episode that I watched this Smithsonian 29 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: Channel thing on the very last day of research, and 30 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: the reason that it was on the very last day 31 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: of research was that, like, in doing all of the reading, 32 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't think those are his bones. 33 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: What did they actually say on this TV show about 34 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: the DNA research? And it was mitochondrial DNA research, which 35 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: has passed through the maternal line, and I couldn't find 36 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: clarity on exactly what was said. There was just a 37 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: lot of vagueness and the various writing about this TV 38 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: show and the research that led into it, and so 39 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: I was like, well, I guess I'm going to have 40 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: to get Paramount plus to watch this thing, because that was. 41 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: The place where it was available. 42 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: And I watched it, and I had a lot of 43 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: frustrations because a lot of the episode is not really about, 44 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 1: like the DNA research is kind of the big capstone 45 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: at the end, and the announcement of yes, there's a match, 46 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: the big that's just the big reveal at the end 47 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: of the episode, but a lot of the episode is 48 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: more about building a case that this person could have 49 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: been intersex, gotcha? And so they kept doing things like 50 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: comparing portraits of Casimir Pulaski to a medical illustration illustrating 51 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: someone who had congenital adrenal hyperplasia, and I was like, Okay, 52 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: that doesn't really have anything to do with whose bones 53 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: these are, or whether that was Casimir Pulaski, or whether 54 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: like you're you're seeing a similarity between like an eighteenth 55 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: century or maybe nineteenth century from later on portrait and 56 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:41,119 Speaker 1: a medical text illustration like this, that's not really proving anything, right, 57 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: But you understand that's the narrative structure, is it there? Ye, 58 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: building the audience to want them to be that right, right, 59 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: want that outcome for the bones. 60 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 61 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: There was a portion of the episode where they had 62 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: an intersex person dress in the uniform of what he 63 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: would have worn, and I was like, this is also 64 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: not about the DNA research. You only wanted a half 65 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: hour show of DNA results. Yeah, I wanted. 66 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: I really though. 67 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: That was the only thing that I was really there 68 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: for was to find out, like, what did they actually 69 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: say about this DNA research. And then when they got 70 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: to that moment in the show and the answer was 71 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: there's a match between this talis bone and this other bone, 72 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 1: I was like, I think I said what out loud 73 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: because that is not what I thought was going to happen. 74 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: I was expecting that it was going to be something 75 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: else that was inconclusive, and that it was just going 76 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: to sort of be like based on all of this 77 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: other stuff that we have talked about over the course 78 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: of this episode than this, right, but that when they 79 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: were like, no, this is this there's a match, I 80 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: was very surprised. Oh see, this makes total sense to me, 81 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 1: and how you would write an episode like that for 82 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: television It does to me too, But it was still irritating. 83 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: Does that make sense? Like I feel like, you know, 84 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 2: they know. 85 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: What answer is coming, and they need to make it 86 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: such that by the time you land the plane there 87 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: the audience can accept that information. Yeah, because otherwise there 88 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: are just one bazillion questions that will irritate other people 89 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: of like, wait, so what did he look like in 90 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: his uniform? Are you sure nobody knew? 91 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 2: How did this? You know what I mean? Like, Yeah, 92 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 2: that's really why they're writing it that way. 93 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 1: It was one of those things where I was like, 94 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: I understand how these shows work, and I like, I 95 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: understand how a one hour documentary TV show, Like I 96 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: understand conceptually what's happening, but I still found a lot 97 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: of it very frustrating. I also, the tests that were 98 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: done on these they were not in any way non invasive. 99 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: It was like drill a sample out of the bone, right, 100 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 1: and that's there. Has you know, have been less invasive 101 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: methods for things that were done that have been developed 102 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: in the more recent years, but this was that's not 103 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: what was done in this anyway. I just I by 104 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: the time I finished watching it, I was like, I 105 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: I needed to watch this so that I could understand 106 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 1: what was actually set, like what was said and what 107 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: was the substantiation for what was said. But then I 108 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: was like, I wish I hadn't had to spend an 109 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: hour of my life on that. I'm going to ask 110 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: you a question that's going to sound obnoxious. Okay, why 111 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: didn't you just jump to the end? 112 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 2: Then? Why didn't I just. 113 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: At the end, Because I mean, it might just be 114 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: like the result of my kind of ADHD brain. 115 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm not If I'm not in it, I'm 116 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 2: not in it. 117 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to step ahead and see what I can 118 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: find that actually like hits the dopamine receptors and get out. Yeah, 119 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: I think I I I didn't know that there was 120 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: not going to be useful material in the rest of 121 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,799 Speaker 1: the episode until I had seen it. What I really 122 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: would have appreciated it would be if there had been 123 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: a publicly available transcript of it that I could have 124 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: just read through you, because that would have gotten a 125 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: lot faster and it would not have had the things 126 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: about it that it would not have had some of 127 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: the things in it that would have frustrated me. So anyway, 128 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: and now I have Paramount Plus things that I can watch, Well, 129 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: it's a good Star Trek time coming to you. It 130 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: is a lot of Star Trek time. And it was 131 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: a weird irony because Patrick and I had just gone 132 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: through our streaming services and we had weeded things out 133 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: because we were subscribing to a lot, a lot of them, 134 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: and I was the only one at that moment who 135 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: was watching anything on Paramount Plus. And both of the 136 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 1: things that I was watching had gone on, like the 137 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: mid season hiatus and I was like, we can just 138 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: get rid of this and I will probably come back 139 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: to it at some point later, and then not very 140 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: long at all after that was, oh, I need to 141 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: watch this thing from Smithsonian Channel, and. 142 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: That's where I could watch it. 143 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: So I was really interested in the way that Kasimir 144 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: Pulaski has been talked about, like as a figure from 145 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: the American Revolution, as a figure related to like Polish 146 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: immigration and Polish national pride, Polish American pride, all of that. 147 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: Multiple articles that I read that talked about that talked 148 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: about how today is Koshuko whose name I'm pronouncing that's, 149 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: to the best of my ability, was a more influential 150 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: and important figure in terms of Polish people in the 151 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: Revolutionary War. And there were like at least three or 152 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: four different articles that were like, he probably didn't get 153 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: as much attention because his name is a lot harder 154 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: for English speakers to say, And I was like, that, honestly, 155 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: probably true, and it's sort of made it made a 156 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: layer of it, like sense making how this person who 157 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: was had such a reputation for being kind of arrogant 158 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: and quarrelsome and writing long letters to the Continental Congress 159 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: that are like you are treating me very very badly. 160 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: Wound up being kind of the illustrative example of Polish 161 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: involvement in the Revolutionary War, Right, you're doing it wrong. 162 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: The Kasimir Pulaski story, Laski story. Yeah, yeah, just yeah. Also, 163 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: I am aware of Sufyan Stevens's album Illinois's Illinois that 164 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: then became stage production. There is a song on it 165 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: about Kasimir Pulaski Day. I know that exists. I probably 166 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: own that album. I just i'd imagine getting lots of 167 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: emails from listeners saying, are you aware that there's a 168 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: Kasimir Pulaski Day song on this album? Yes, I know, 169 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: I'm aware. Anyway, I don't think I have anything further 170 00:09:58,360 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: to say. 171 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: How about all of this. 172 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: I'm just tickled by what a pill he apparently was 173 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: to everybody. Yeah, well, and that he was not the 174 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: only officer from Europe who had that reputation, right. There's 175 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: definitely a cultural, yea clashing element problem to all of that. Yeah, 176 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: And this is something that may or may not come 177 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: up again on a reasonably near future episode that I 178 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 1: don't know if it will happen or not. But a 179 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: sort of about the difference between the professional standing armies 180 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: of Europe and the Continental Army, which especially in the 181 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: early years, was like just volunteers who had maybe been 182 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: out drilling with their militia two or three times a 183 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: year if they were very young, they might have done 184 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: that one time or no times, and were up against 185 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: armies that had been you know, drilling and practicing and 186 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: subjected to continual discipline for for years of their lives. 187 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: And then a bunch of guys just doing their best. Yeah, 188 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of guys doing their best. So you had 189 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: officers coming over from a tradition of you know, ongoing 190 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: service and discipline in a standing army to you know, 191 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: volunteer militia members doing their best. So anyway, maybe that 192 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: episode will happen, maybe not. I have not figured it 193 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: out yet. Talked about Rebecca Smith Pollard this week on 194 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: the show. I said this kind of off Mike in 195 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: and aside. I did not know about the anti Toime 196 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: novel when I picked this, and it reminded me of 197 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: when we chose and Royal as a live show topic, 198 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: and we had all already like we had advertised the 199 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: we had advertised the live show, we had had t 200 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: shirts made for the live show, and then I was like, Oops, 201 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,719 Speaker 1: there is racism I did not know about in this 202 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: That is troubling to me. And I would not have 203 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: chosen for a live show topic had I known ahead 204 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: of time that that was going to happen, because I mean, 205 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: we are we don't shy away from discussing that on 206 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: the show. No, but live show episodes are supposed to 207 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: be fun in theory. Yeah, that one was not. Really 208 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: we haven't really done a live show in a while. 209 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: But this sort of similarly, even though I was looking 210 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: for things that were not like Raw Raw USA USA 211 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: to potentially tie into America's two fifty, I would not 212 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: necessarily have picked one that or we would need to 213 00:12:54,520 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: discuss Anti Tom novels at length. Holly, do you remember 214 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: learning how to read a little? 215 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 2: Okay? 216 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if I had a similar situation to you. 217 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: I about to find out a little frustrated at the 218 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: pace of instruction. Oh okay, I took matters into my 219 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: own hand. Okay, So my mom read to me a lot, 220 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: and really the only television that I was allowed to 221 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: watch as a small child was Sesame Street and Mister Rogers, 222 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: and that was it, And through the combination of Sesame Street, 223 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: Mister Rogers, and my mother reading to me, I walked 224 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: into the kitchen one day when I was four and said, 225 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: I can read, and my mom said, I don't think so, 226 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: and I sat down and read her There's a Monster 227 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: at the end of this book, which is the book 228 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: that she read to me every night because it was 229 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: my favorite. And my mom was like, I think you 230 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: have that book memorized. So I went into another part 231 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: of the house and like pulled a book off the 232 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 1: shelf that I had never been exposed to before that I. 233 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 2: Think was like. 234 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: A school textbook that had been handed down from somewhere. 235 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: Like it wasn't it wasn't a novel, it wasn't anything 236 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: that I had ever read. But I took that into 237 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: the kitchen and just opened it to a page and 238 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: started reading from it, and my mom kind of went, Okay, 239 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: I guess you can't actually read. Then I stand corrected, 240 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: which is evidence of both my existence as an early 241 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: reader and also the fact that I had to be right. 242 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: Mine is early evidence of what a little shrew I was, 243 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: which is come up many times. But I remember I 244 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: have older siblings significantly older than me, and I remember 245 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: at one point in time one of my siblings thought 246 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: they were gonna have didactic time with Holly, and they 247 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: had like sat down and done this thing where they 248 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: were like gonna teach me the word cat and how 249 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: to read it, and I apparently just looked at them 250 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: and said, do you think I'm stupid? I was similarly 251 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: around four or five, yeah, real early, yeah, with like 252 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: the police done with this. I also remember distinctly there 253 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: was a I don't know if it was like a 254 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: yard sale or a second hand shot, but I remember 255 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: being quite tiny and looking through books at a secondhand situation, huh, 256 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: and picking out a bunch and my mom kind of 257 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: just buying them for me without really like perusing what 258 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: they were sure, and a lot of them were like 259 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: spelling and reading instruction books, and I just kind of, yeah, 260 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: had my own little private classroom in my room that 261 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody realized. 262 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 2: Was going on. Yeah. 263 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: I grew into one of those kids that got in 264 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: trouble for reading in class, oh when I was not 265 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: supposed to be doing that, or reading ahead of what 266 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: we were supposed to be reading out loud. Because I 267 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: read a lot faster in my head that out loud. 268 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: And even though I already knew how to read when 269 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: I started in kindergarten, Like, I very viscerally remember the 270 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: process of sounding things out and being taught to sound 271 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: things out when when I came into a word that 272 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: I did not know, And so when I learned that 273 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: there's kind of a generation of kids that didn't really 274 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: learn that at all, yeah, I was like, what do 275 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: you mean? And I do want to say that, like, 276 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: I don't think there's one way of teaching that works 277 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: for everybody, Like there are a lot of kids that 278 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: have disabilities or learning differences or whatever that like make 279 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: one particular thing just not work for them, and some 280 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: other form of instruction is necessary. So I think that's 281 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: part of it too. But the idea that there was 282 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: just no phonics, I was like, what do you mean? Yeah, 283 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: what do you mean people didn't learn how to sound 284 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: things out? 285 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? 286 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: I feel like I got more of the at least 287 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: in like the class work that I was exposed to 288 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: was more of the word whole word stuff. But a 289 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: lot of my like interest in reading was just driven 290 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: by wanting to know things. 291 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 2: Oh sure, yeah, you know what I mean? 292 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: Like that was and it wasn't necessarily stuff I was 293 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: going to get taught in school. Yeah, so I would 294 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: just be proactive about it, and I don't write bossy and. 295 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 2: What do you think I'm stupid? 296 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what a brat. Pollard's methods and the level 297 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: of granularity in all of the different phonemes does sound 298 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: to me kind of tedious. The fact that there was 299 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: so much that she just called busy work. I don't 300 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: know if other people were calling things busy work in 301 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century that was just like part of the lingo, 302 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: But the fact that it was called busy work, I 303 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, this does sound like busy work to me. 304 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: Marking all of the phonemes and your reader. Oh but 305 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: those kids, like their level of mastery was probably like 306 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: so far ahead of anybody else in. 307 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: Their age group. Yeah, that's the thing. 308 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: Sometimes that stuff that feels like busy work is really 309 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: like drilling things in a way that you will never 310 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: ever in your life. 311 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 2: Forget it for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Side note. 312 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: I went to Stratford upon Avon on my trip to England, 313 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: and I went to the schoolroom where Shakespeare would have 314 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 1: gone to school. I'm not actually sure if there's evidence 315 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: that he did go to school there, but it would 316 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 1: have been the school he would have gone to. And 317 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 1: it is a school that's still in operation, and they 318 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: don't start tours until eleven because there is a morning 319 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: class that meets in the classroom, the historic classroom that's 320 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: still there. And the tour group did just sort of 321 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: a little simulation of how students would have learned by 322 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: wrote through memorizing things. Yeah, which is not at all 323 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: how it worked when we memorized things when I was 324 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: a child. You faced the person across for you, and 325 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: you set it into each other's faces over and over. 326 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: I was face to face with someone who I think 327 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: may have also been there by herself, and had a 328 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: tote bag that said, though, but she is little, she 329 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: is fierce. I'm saying that wrong, but anyway Shakespeare quote, Yeah, 330 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: I think it is those though she'd be but little, 331 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: she is fierce. 332 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: It sounds right. I think that's right. 333 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: I suddenly needed to call it up into memory and 334 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't there anyway. Though she'd be but little, yeah, 335 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: those she'd be, but little, Yeah, she is fierce. I 336 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:44,239 Speaker 1: will work it out. We'll get there. A couple of 337 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: things to talk about. What the poem, the trist poem 338 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: that she and another poet each wrote to one another 339 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: and had published in the journal. 340 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. 341 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: I feel a modern reader reading this today would go, 342 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 1: that is the most sapphic thing I have ever seen. Yeah, 343 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 1: you know, in the era when it was published, if 344 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: anybody had thought that, it wouldn't have been in the newspaper. 345 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: But it also had this note from the editor which 346 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: did not really fit in that moment in the episode. 347 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: But I found I don't know, it's said quotes our 348 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: gallantry is shocked at the thought of the spirits of 349 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: two charming young menstrual girls wandering about at midnight by 350 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: themselves in this bad world without a protector. And I 351 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: was like, they were they were not actually outside. I 352 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: know that, and you know that. But I think this 353 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: was him going, of course, we don't want young ladies 354 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: to do this, because he was anticipating the people that 355 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: were going to write in and be like, why would 356 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: you suggest this, And instead of going they're not really 357 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: doing that. This is a theoretic galbal he could just go, 358 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: of course, we would of course not ever never. 359 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 360 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 1: The other thing that I had noted here was just that, 361 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: Like we have talked before, it has come up on 362 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: the show, like in almost side mentions of people people 363 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: who were enslavers but also fiercely against secession from the 364 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 1: Union during the Civil War, and like that has just 365 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: sort of come up in passing sometimes. And this I 366 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: think is the first time that I have really been 367 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: reading the thoughts of somebody who apparently was anti abolition 368 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: but also a staunch, staunch unionist. It's a weird, a 369 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: weird tangle to wrap your head around. I have series 370 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: here they are, and you had thoughts about this that 371 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: you were going to share. I really really do. I 372 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: think this is purely my conjecture. I didn't even do 373 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: the research for this episode, but based on all of 374 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: the information we have about her, I feel like she 375 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: might have been a case of one of those people 376 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,239 Speaker 1: who is a very clever person, probably got told as 377 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: much a lot growing up, and when she hears new information, 378 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: she digests it and thinks it through and then has 379 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: ideas about it. And because she's a very clever person, 380 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: people encourage her to voice those ideas without necessarily really 381 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: talking through what it all means. And I bet that 382 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: that's part of why she went on her little weird 383 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: tyret because then later on in her life she seems 384 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: to have taken a different stance. 385 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my only thinking. 386 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: I suspect she was young and processing information she had 387 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: a hand somewhat influential in her life had said like, 388 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: these people are ruining the union with their oh, sure 389 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: upstart ways, and she was like, you know what, they 390 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: sure are. I didn't really like get through all of 391 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: the bigger picture stuff about what was going on. 392 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 2: That's my guess. 393 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can definitely say I held some opinions in 394 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: my teams in early twenties that were bad. 395 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 2: We all did, like, very bad. 396 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: And when I was Yeah, when I was exposed to 397 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: other information, I was like, oh, that is a bad opinion. 398 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 2: I will say. 399 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,439 Speaker 1: There will probably be something between now and the end 400 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: of my life that I think right now that I 401 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: will be like, oh, that was a bad opinion that 402 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: I had. Yeah, now I've learned from that. And that 403 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: was one of the reasons that I kind of went 404 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,239 Speaker 1: to try to see, like what were her thoughts on 405 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: this later. 406 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 2: I'm also not. 407 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: Fully clear, but the parts of this novel that I read, 408 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: there are conversations that happen that are it's clear which 409 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: side is the side that she is setting up as 410 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: the correct side, right, But then there are conversations that 411 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: it like one of the characters will be basically saying, hey, 412 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: these are people like we are we are all human beings, right? 413 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: And I'm like, are are you on the we're all 414 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: human beings side? Because it kind of sounds like you 415 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: might be from this passage. Are you more concerned with 416 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: this idea of preserving the union and that's what drive 417 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: That's what's driving it rather than being like explicitly pro 418 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: slavery for racist reasons that you know that there were 419 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 1: also people that had those opinions. And I really didn't 420 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 1: get to the bottom of that. And I might have 421 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: if I had been willing to read the entire book, 422 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: but that was too much. It was too much. She 423 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: had just enough information to be dangerous. I'm telling you, Yeah, 424 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: I believe it advice. So yeah, she's a complicated person 425 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: who the fact that she from what I can understand, 426 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: she put together this instructional method that was very motivated 427 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: by what she thought actually helped children learn and also 428 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: making sure teachers had what they needed to be able 429 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: to teach. Yeah, that part I thought was really good, terrific. Yeah, 430 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,479 Speaker 1: you know, even though I sort of think the amount 431 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: of diacritical marking of textbooks might have been a little 432 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: much maybe maybe. 433 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 2: Maybe, But also I'm telling you, those kids knew their stuff. Yeah. 434 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway, those Rebecca Smith Pollard, Uh, whatever's coming 435 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: up for you on the weekend. We you know, I 436 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: hope it's great. There was just a strange noise outside 437 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: my house, and I hope that's not a harbinger of anything. Oh, 438 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: is there any strange thing is happening in your world? 439 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: I hope none of them are harbingers of worse things 440 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: to come, and that everything that's coming your way is 441 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: going to be better than what was before. We will 442 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: be back on Monday with a brand new episode, and 443 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: tomorrow we'll be back with a Saturday classic. Stuff you 444 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For 445 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 446 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.