1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: one thirty two. A videotaped statement made by the man 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: accused of the notorious murder of a jogger in Queen's 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: was presented during a pre trial hearing. Arina Vactronto was 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: murdered while jogging and Howard Bach, the thirty year old, 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: was found dead. Her body was discovered just fifteen feet 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: away from a trail that she and her father ran 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: together nearly every day, but back paint forced him to 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: stay at home the afternoon she was killed. Detective Session L. 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: Lewis provided a detailed confession to the crime, and police 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: collected DNA samples from scores of young men before focusing 12 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: on Lewis. Kathy Patronto shared this chilling message to the 13 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: person who killed her daughter, Corina. The whole entire world 14 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: knows what a pathetic, puny, weak pisa felt that you are. 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: The retired firefighter has a message of his own for 16 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: the attacker. Justice will be served. A beautiful young girl 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:07,279 Speaker 1: goes jogging every day with her father, a retired fighter fighter. 18 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: They're very close soul mates. One day he decides he's 19 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: down the back as we say, and he doesn't go. 20 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: She goes jogging, but then an hour passes, then an 21 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: hour and a half, and he the dad knows instinctively 22 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: that something is horribly wrong and begins frantically calling her 23 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: cell phone. He doesn't waste time, he immediately calls police. 24 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: Together they retrace her typical jogging route, and it is 25 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: her own father, Phil the Toronto that finds his daughter dead. 26 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: And now a shocking twist to the already disturbing story. 27 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: I Meancy Grace, this is crime stories. Thank you for 28 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: being with us. Now we learn that the man who 29 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: who who turned the Pa Toronto's world upside down, who 30 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: left police on a wild goose chase for months and 31 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: months and months, and now is the poster boy for 32 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: something called familial d n A Taxi Ribo Clak Acid 33 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: has given a confession to the brutal murder and rape 34 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: a Carena Pa Toronto. But now he says, I'm not guilty, 35 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: not guilty. He'll have to argue it was a commerced 36 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: or fake confession. At what about the d n A 37 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: Should this even be allowed? I want to go straight 38 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: out to a special guest joining me. In addition to 39 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morrigan, homicide investigator, forensics expert. With me is 40 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. And also with me my 41 00:02:55,200 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: special guest today George Skiro, Director at scales By Logical Laboratory. 42 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: Whenever thirty years of experience as a forensic expert, a 43 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: scientist and crime scene investigator. First of you, Joseph Scott Morgan, 44 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: I want to review the facts, but before we do, 45 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: I want you to hear what Karina's father, Phil the Toronto, 46 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: a retired firefighter, tells me. It was August two, broad daylight. 47 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: She left the house around five thirty, you know. She said, Daddy, 48 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go for a run. And she asked me 49 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: if I wanted to come, and I said I can't today, Karine, 50 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: because my back is hurt. And I asked her, are 51 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: you gonna go in there, meaning the trail in the weeds, 52 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: and she said yeah, And I said, Greene, did you 53 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: think it's a good idea? She said, don't want me, Daddy, 54 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: I'll be okay, and she went off and she was 55 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: only gone twenty minutes when this feeling came over me, 56 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: like like something but something was wrong. So I called 57 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: her phone at UH seven, six thirty, I was I 58 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: was watching the news, I was eating dinner, and I 59 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,359 Speaker 1: just said damn. I didn't say damn, but the words 60 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: similar to damn. And my wife had just gotten home 61 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: from the hospital, and she said, what's the matter, And 62 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: I said, Karene is not answering her phone. And my 63 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: wife didn't even know. She went out for a run. 64 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: So I went looking for her. And I walked the 65 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: trail where we usually run. I stopped about two hundred 66 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: feet from where she was because I didn't think we 67 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: haven't went that far. And uh, I turned around and 68 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: I came out. I called a friend of mine in 69 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: in the p D and I told him Karine is missing. 70 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: She's not answering our phone. And within fifteen minutes we 71 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: had patrol. Cause within a half hour, we had helicopters, 72 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: we had bloodhounds, We had three people looking for her. 73 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: They happened to unlock her phone. She had a h fitting, 74 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: you know, an Apple product, which was very difficult to unlock. 75 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:42,239 Speaker 1: But because Karina had asthma, they were able to unlock 76 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: the phone and we we found the location and at 77 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: ten thirty I went to where the phone was found 78 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: and I just she called me, you know, she came 79 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: to me and called means and and led me to 80 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: where she was and I just walked into the weeds 81 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: and found her. When you say she came to you, 82 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: what did you hear a voice in your head? What happened? No, 83 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: it's just the same way that I got the feeling 84 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: when I was watching the news when I knew something 85 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: was wrong. Uh, my carener and myself, we weren't just 86 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: you know, father and daughter. She was like my best 87 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:29,559 Speaker 1: friend and we did everything together. You find your cell phone, 88 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:34,239 Speaker 1: and then what happens, Well, the cops found the cell phone. 89 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: So I want to wear the where the police were. 90 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: There were about fifteen cops there at the time. There 91 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: was bloodhounds. There was a helicopter with heat sensor on it. 92 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: And I said, where's the phone and they pointed in 93 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: the direction he said, about fifty feet in. And you know, 94 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: they didn't touch the phone. They left it to c s. 95 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: I So I said, okay, you know it's pitch black now, 96 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: and I start looking deeper into the trail, you know, 97 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: just walking and then uh, I told myself or somebody 98 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: or something told me no, So I turned around and 99 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: I walked in the other direction. I got to about 100 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: fifty ft from where the phone was on the trail, 101 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: and I just stopped. And I you know, there's a 102 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: trail to the right and there's a trail to the left. 103 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: You can go anither way and the weed or eight 104 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: ft high, and I just stopped. I turned to my right. 105 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: I looked at the weeds, and I just walked in 106 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: and I made it about thirty five and that's where 107 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: she was. You know, she she needed her father, she 108 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: needed me to find her. There's no question to justice. 109 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, death investigator. What this guy says in court 110 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: Chanel Lewis is so disturbing. The family heard this. They 111 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: have personally reviewed his videotape confessions. He says that I 112 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: was mad, I saw red. He also denies a raping 113 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: her and says, I guess he says he killed her. 114 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: I guess what. Somebody else raped her, and so he's 115 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: gonna say that coincidently, somebody just happened to raper and 116 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: then he came in and killed her. Quote. He says 117 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: he grabbed a toronto as she ran past him through 118 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: aim More she swamp, that she clawed at his face 119 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: and he hit her five times before she was knocked unconscious. Quote, 120 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 1: she didn't yell, she was finished. I finished her off. 121 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 1: I strangled her. She fell into the puddle and drowned, 122 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: he says coldly on videotape. I got up, I walked 123 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: off the blood, and she was calm. She was in 124 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: the pool of water. It was like all the way 125 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 1: over her face, he says of the puddle. And after 126 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: telling police how he quote finished her off, he seemed 127 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: to think he could pay his way out of a 128 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: murder one charge. He says, quote, I can straighten out 129 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: my stuff. I mean, you're the d A right. Where 130 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: do we go from here? Is this our restitution program 131 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 1: or something? What? Quote I finished her off? Then he 132 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: goes on Joe Scott to insist he did not molest her, 133 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: even though her jogging shorts had been pulled down. I 134 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: didn't quote, I didn't do any of the stuff they said, 135 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: sex assault, stuff like that, he says. He then walked 136 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: home up the bike path. Quote shaken up. He was 137 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: shaken up. Joe Scott hoping to get Napkins to quote 138 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: the bleeding from the scratches on his face, and then 139 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: when he was asked why he attacked the jogger. Who 140 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: has his name, It's Karina the Toronto. He says, because 141 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: the guy moved into my house and neighborhood. He said, 142 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of anger. Okay, Justice Scott Morgan, 143 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: you have been a witness in countless cases. I don't 144 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: even know how many felonies I've tried or investigated. I'm 145 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: want to hear your thoughts on this now. Pleading not guilty, 146 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: not guilty. Uh, that's an interesting, interesting thing to say, 147 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: isn't it. Let me throw you one other thing that 148 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: he said as well. Uh. He's also quoted as saying, Nancy, 149 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: I beat her to let my emotions out. I never 150 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: really meant to hurt her. It just happened. So let 151 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: me get this straight. He he places himself there physically 152 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: at the scene of the crime, where he apparently laid 153 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: in wait. Nancy, this is a very narrow jogging path. 154 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: It's in a wooded area immediately adjacent to a beachside 155 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: area where people take their families. This young girl lived there, 156 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: He's young lady lived there with her with her father, 157 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: and he waited in the bushes until she jogged by, 158 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: and then as he got past as she got past 159 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: his position, he attacks her while her back is to him. 160 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: Then he drags her out into this marshy area. Now 161 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: he says, I beat her. Let me tell you what else. 162 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 1: They're saying. She was apparently struck in the back of 163 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: the head with some type of heavy object. They're thinking 164 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: possibly a rock. Now I don't know this definitively, but 165 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: she may very well have had a depressed skull fracture 166 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 1: that happens many times with these types of strikes. And 167 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: then she was strangled. And he's saying that he didn't 168 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: he didn't molest her at all. Nancy. You know she's 169 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: wearing jogging pants. Now, as everybody can attest to, jogging 170 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: pants don't just spontaneously fall off. Her pants had been 171 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: pulled down. This is in a very what we referred 172 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: to as an asymmetrical position. She's face down, Nancy. Can 173 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: you imagine in this dirty, filthy marsh water, face down. 174 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: She's been brutalized, beaten, strangled, she's bruised and scratched. All 175 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: she want to do is go out for a job. 176 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: Her pants are down, and he in this asymmetrical position 177 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: where he's dominant over her. Finally, finally just strangles out 178 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: the last bit of life that she had left in her. 179 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: He completely abused this woman. And to say that this 180 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: wasn't sexually motivated, give me a break. This is a 181 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: sexual attack. It's an attack of power. He raped her 182 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: and he choked her, and you know what, he may 183 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,599 Speaker 1: have raped her after she was dead. We don't know. 184 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: But these this we do know. He has left his 185 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: DNA behind and that is a tough, tough mountain for 186 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: any defense team to climb. In this particular case, well, 187 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: there should be a treasure trove of DNA because let 188 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: me add some more facts to that for our special guest, 189 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: George skiro to digest Um again when Karindova Toronto had 190 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: not returned any of her dad's calls. And this really 191 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: hits home. Guys. You know, my dad passed away two 192 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: years ago, and that was one of the things, one 193 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: of the many things we did together. We I would 194 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: jog and he would walk. He had been a heart 195 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: patient since his late thirties, and he walked fat, race 196 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: walk fast, walked, religiously, and I would jog to keep 197 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: up with him. We did it on vacation, We did 198 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: it every time I went home. To visit always, just 199 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: like Karinova Toronto and her father Phil. So when she 200 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: didn't call back a couple of hours after she left, 201 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: he calls in yp D. You know he knows them 202 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 1: because he was a firefighter. He found his own daughter's body. 203 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: I mean, that is an image that will never get 204 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: out of his mind. Which I'll go to Dr Boberon 205 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: in just a moment, But this is what we know. 206 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: Detectives says. Joe Scott said she had been hit in 207 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,359 Speaker 1: the back of the head with a rock, raped and strangled. 208 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: She thought she cracked her teeth off while biting her attacker. 209 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: She clenched grass in her hands as she was being 210 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: dragged off the jogging track trying to hold on. DNA 211 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: was under her nails, on her bat which had to 212 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: be semen, and on her phone in the weeds a 213 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: few feet away. Now, she was out jogging alone. And 214 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: when I say that, in fact, I almost didn't even 215 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: want to say that, Joe Scott, because somehow when I 216 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: say she was out jogging alone, people find fault with that. 217 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: Up she was jogging alone. What does she think was 218 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: gonna happen? Well, f y, I I go jogging or 219 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: walking almost every day. So what should should I not do? That? 220 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: Am I bad for that? I mean, have you noticed 221 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: that Joe Scott when we say she was jogging alone? 222 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: Somehow that has a bad connotation. Yeah, I mean, what 223 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: is she supposed to do? She spo to call you know, 224 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: every friend that she has and every family member. This 225 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: is something she's doing for personal fitness. This is something 226 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: she's going out and look, she has an expectation. She's 227 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: been on this path with her dad over the past. 228 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: It's probably a peaceful time that they can get together 229 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: and enjoy one another. And this is you know, that's 230 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: what makes us all the more tragic to this place 231 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: that she found a lot of joy with with her 232 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: dad probably ends in this kind of horror. And no, 233 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: she's not at fault for going out and just taking 234 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: care of herself as she you know, probably did on 235 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: a regular basis day to day. And who would think 236 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: that lurking over in the bushes is somebody that is 237 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: acting in a predatory nature that just just reaches out 238 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: from behind after she's passed by, knowing what he's doing, 239 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: and drags her off into this hell filled last few 240 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: moments of her life. Joining me right, now, as I 241 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: have touted, is a renowned DNA expert. It is George Skiro, 242 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: director of the Skills Biological Laboratory, with over thirty years 243 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: of experience as a forensic scientist and a crime scene investigator. 244 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: Before I go much further with the facts, George, I 245 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: want to welcome you. Thank you for being with us 246 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: here at Sirius sex In two and I want you 247 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: to enlighten us all for those that may not be 248 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: familiar with d NA deoxyribonucleic acid. Every single person has 249 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: their own unique DNA. It cannot be replicated. It's like 250 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: a biological or genetic fingerprint. But what is familial DNA? George? 251 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: Because they tried, and they tried, and they tried. They 252 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: took the DNA off her body, George, and compared it 253 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: to CODIS, which was the you know, nationwide data bank 254 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: of DNA. No matches, so it looked as if it 255 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: wasn't anybody that had a record. They couldn't find the purp. 256 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: It was excruciating, George. What is familial DNA? Well, thank 257 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: you for having me, Nancy. Familiar DNA searching is where 258 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: a database is search data database of DNA profiles. It 259 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: searched to determine if there are any close matches that 260 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: could have maybe come from a potential family member of 261 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: of a of a perpetrator of a crime, to see 262 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: if there if a link could be made that way. 263 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: Then if there's a potential link made that way, and 264 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: if it's a fairly strong, uh familiar DNA match, what 265 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: they'll then do is get a DNA sample directly from 266 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: that individual to compare directly to the evidence that's found 267 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 1: at the scene. So bottom line, if you get DNA 268 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: on a crime scene to Justice Scott Morgan and it 269 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: doesn't match anybody in the DNA data bank, if you 270 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: can use there's just a handful of states that allow 271 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: the use of familial DNA, although I think that's changing. 272 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: You didn't take the DNA and you compare it to 273 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: anybody in the data bank, and it can show up 274 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 1: if they're relative, is has been in jail, then you 275 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: have an idea. I'm like, oh, this is somebody related 276 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: to Joseph Scott Morgan. Well, I'm gonna go find Joseph 277 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan because he's in my data bank. He's got 278 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: a rap sheet and I find Joe Scott Morgan and 279 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: I say, listen, familiar DNA popped up, and you're a hit. 280 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: Got any ideas where is one of your blood relatives 281 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: might have done this thing, who lives in this area, 282 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: who lives in this neighborhood. Blah blah blah. That's what 283 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: familial DNA is, so explained to me, Joe Scott, your 284 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: take on familial DNA. You know, Nancy, The really great 285 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 1: thing about this, As you know, I'm a college professor, 286 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: and one of the one of the things that I 287 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: tell my students in class and the forensics classes I 288 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: teach is that um people are always really focused on 289 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: things like positive findings in science, Well, the test was positive. 290 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 1: I tell my students that negative findings are just as 291 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: important as positive findings. And the reason is is that 292 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: in crime scene investigation and death investigation, one of the 293 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: things that we're looking for is a starting place. If 294 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: we have a negative finding, say for instance, that it 295 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: doesn't appear in the CODIST database, that means we have 296 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: a place to start. That means that we can push 297 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 1: that aside and begin to look in other locations. So 298 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: this is going to be a tie back, and it's 299 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: going to give us an opportunity to dig deeper into 300 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: who may have played a part in a particular case, 301 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: and in this case in particular. And this is essential 302 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: because I think that this is a historic moment. This 303 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: case has has a lot of when we're not brought 304 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: familial d n A to the forefront yet again. And 305 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: let me tell you the A C l U the 306 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: defense bar screaming, crying, whining that it's quote not fair. 307 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: You know what. That's what John, David and Lucy say 308 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: when they have no other argument. That's not fair. And 309 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: I always say, you know what, You're gonna have to 310 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: refine your argument and come up with an actual reason 311 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: I should not take your iPad away. And when you 312 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: do that, I will listen. But it's not fair, it's 313 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: not specific enough. So that's where we're standing right now. 314 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: I want you to hear what the police are saying. Now. 315 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: This I who gives a video tape confession about the 316 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: deathmatch he he put on Karina Vatronto before she was 317 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: raped and murdered, How she knocked her teeth out, struggling, 318 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: tore at the grass to save her own life. He 319 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: tells all this about how he drowned her in a puddle. 320 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: Now he's pleading not guilty. I want to thank our 321 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: partners who are making today's program possible where we investigate 322 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: the murder of a beautiful young girl and the devastation 323 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: of her family. That family of Karina Va, Toronto. We 324 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: are investigating what happened to her as we gear up 325 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: for the trial of Chanel Louis right now. Thank you 326 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: to our partner. One of our partners that I just 327 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: love is super beats. Wouldn't it be great to have 328 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: all the energy you wanted all day long, so I could, 329 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: you know, run all day? But fatigue gets in the 330 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: way even for everyday activities. 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You're not going to get that at 350 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 1: the pharmacy. You're not going to get that at your 351 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: your health food store. No. Eight hundred five one six 352 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 1: zero six eight three, or go to Nancy's Beats dot 353 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: com today. In fact, I need to drink about a 354 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: gallon right now because I need energy. We are talking 355 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: about the horrific murder of a beautiful young girl who 356 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: had the audacity to go jogging one day. Her own 357 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: father found her body filled. The Toronto retired firefighter who 358 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: that one day was down in the back and did 359 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: not go jogging with her as he usually did. Now 360 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 1: joining me in addition to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics professor 361 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University and death investigator, the director of 362 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: Scales Biological Laboratory, George Skiro, and now joining me, Dr 363 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrists. Dr Bober, thank you for being 364 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: with us. I was just detailing the confession that he 365 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: gave great a fine detail of the murder of this girl. 366 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: How can he now and it's on video? How can 367 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: he now claim he didn't do it? Dr Bober? Nancy, 368 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: my concern about this case is that whether this confession 369 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: was legally involuntarily obtained. I was reading something about okay, well, 370 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: whit whit wa whit? Dr Bober? Are you serious? Are 371 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: you just saying that for the argument's sake? I mean, 372 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: are you actually concerned it was illegally obtained? It's on video? Well, Nancy, 373 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: you and I both know that even a video confession 374 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: could still be illegally obtained. I mean, really, how if 375 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: it's on video, how would you even suggest this was illegal? 376 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: Because we don't know what happened before the video started. 377 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: Rolling number one number two that I was reading that 378 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: this particular defendant attended a special school and there's concerns 379 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: about his capacity to give a voluntary confession, So that's 380 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: my concern. Hold on, just let me put your mind 381 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 1: to rest. Dr Bober. He signed a statement saying he 382 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: knows his rights, and on that statement are written his rights. 383 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: Also on the video, he is given his rights. Yes, 384 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: he did attend a private school for emotionally disturbed people. 385 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: But are you suggesting that a confession of someone of 386 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: a normal i Q with emotional disturbances is not fair? 387 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: Because that's really not what the constitution says. Dr Bober. 388 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: Back to we're back at square one, Dr Bober, where 389 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: he gives a d a detailed, an intricate, detailed statement 390 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: about how well, what do you mean by it's too detailed? 391 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: Dr Bober? Could have been that it could have been 392 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: fed to him. Oh okay, do you have any evidence 393 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: of that either, Dr Bober? Is that just more of 394 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: your speculation. Well, I'm sure his defense counsel will try 395 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 1: the same thing. Yeah, that's not an answer. Do you 396 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: have any facts to support he was he was fed 397 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 1: the story? Or you just speculating? Okay, that's what I thought. 398 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: So back to Dr Daniel Bober. Forensic psychiatrists joining me, 399 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,479 Speaker 1: Dr Bober, When you say too much detail, I assume 400 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 1: that if there was not enough detail, you would say, oh, 401 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: there's not enough detail. This isn't real. It's a false confession. 402 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 1: Now you're telling me there's too much a detail. So 403 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: maybe he was fed the confession. But isn't it quite 404 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: the coinkieing the coincidence that his detailed confession matches exactly 405 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: to the forensic evidence. The way she was killed, the 406 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 1: fact her face was faced down in a muddy puddle 407 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: that totally covered her face, the fact that she fought, 408 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: the fact that he jumped out from gra gass high grass. 409 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: I've seen it myself on the side of this jogging path, 410 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: and that she fought, dragging the grass under her nails 411 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: and grasping it to stay on the path and get 412 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: away from him. That he has his face covered and 413 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: scratches where she fought him actually breaking her teeth off, 414 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: biting him. Are you saying it's just a mere coincidence 415 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 1: that all of that forensic evidence matches his confession. Well, 416 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: the detectives would have known a lot of that, loan 417 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: a lot of that information to as well, so if 418 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: they were going to beat it to him, they would 419 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: have been the people to do it, not to mention 420 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: the fact that it's not as open and said as 421 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: we thought it was, because the DNA evidence is shaky too, 422 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: So I'm not saying, well, who why whit whit white. 423 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: Let's just take one of your arguments at a time. 424 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: First of all, Dr Bober, have you ever heard the 425 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: old saying you can't have your cake and eat it too. 426 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: That's a yes, no answer, Dr Bober. So Dr Bober, 427 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: and you agree that either he's too emotionally disturbed too 428 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: give a valid or legal confession, or he is so 429 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: clever that he can be here all these facts and 430 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 1: then regurgitate them without prompting over quite a period of time. Hours. 431 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: In fact, he gives a statement, So he you can't 432 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: be so disturbed that you can't understand your rights. You 433 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: have a right to a lawyer. You can't be that 434 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: disturbed that you can't think straight and be able to 435 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: give a lengthy confession that was fed to you earlier, 436 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: and remember every forensic detail and shocking clarity. It's either 437 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: one or the other. So which story are you picking, 438 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: Dr Bouber? Well, Nancy, he was there, He was in 439 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: the station for quite a while for several hours, and 440 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: I believe an attorney for I believe the Legal Aid 441 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: Society who was actually an expert in false confessions was 442 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: had the tape or heard the taper from giving the 443 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: confession and said that it sounded like it was scripted. 444 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: I'd be curious to know who paid that expert in 445 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: false confessions and how many times that expert in false 446 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: confessions ever testified for the state, or do they make 447 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: their living off representing and helping defendants charged with violent felonies. 448 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: So now you're telling me that it kind of sounds like, Hey, 449 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: I know a guy. Yeah, so Dr Daniel Bober says 450 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: he heard some guy that said that herd that says 451 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: he heard the confession that then said, oh sounds coerced 452 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: to me. So who's the guy Dr Bober who is 453 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: the expert with the New York Innocence Private Cancer I 454 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: can for you, but I don't have Oh so you 455 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: don't know his name or when he said it, or 456 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: if he ever really even listened to the confession. It's 457 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: just something what you read online. Well that's where I 458 00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: read the story. Was you know what, I've got some 459 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: pro pty I'd like to sell you. It's a little swampy, 460 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure it's real valuable. Dr Bober. Now, 461 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: Dr Buy, let's go dad to another thing you said. 462 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: You said the d n A was shaky. The DNA 463 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: evidence found on her body is quote shaky according to 464 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober. Why is it shaky? Dr Bober? When 465 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: I had read Nancy was that there was actually a 466 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: mixture of DNA under her finger nails and that they 467 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: couldn't definitively tied the DNA evidence of the defendant. That's 468 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: what I had read. I could be incorrect about that assumpthing, 469 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: but that's that's what I read. They found DNA from 470 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: the defendant on her back. There was a drinking bottle 471 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: like an Arizona tea bottle out in the weeds that 472 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: matched somebody else that has not been linked to the crime. 473 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: It was in the vicinity, out on a public jogging trail. 474 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: I want to go to Joseph Scott Morgan who was 475 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: joining me in a adition to Dr Daniel Bober, psychiatrist 476 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: and George Skiro. He was over thirty years of experience 477 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: in DNA and crime scene investigation. Joe Scott, could you 478 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: uh kindly give Dr Bober a recap of the DNA 479 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: in this case, the DNA that was found on her 480 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: person has, from what has been indicated thus far, been 481 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: a tie back to the accused. Now, I don't know 482 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: how they would have gone about manufacturing uh this DNA 483 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: evidence and the odds I think are wholly against it 484 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: that they could have fabricated such thing, and what would 485 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: be their motivation behind all of this? I think that 486 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: sometimes defense counsel utilizes the technology, attempts to use the 487 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: technology that we use in forensics against us by trying 488 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: to make it sound can you talk regular people talk, please, 489 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: Joe Scott. I mean, I know you're talking to a psychiatrist, 490 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: but the rest of us are listening. We can hear you, 491 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, So dial it down a minute, Okay, they go. 492 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: Bottom line is they try to confuse everybody. They want 493 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: you to look in the right hand when the evidence 494 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: is really in the left hand. And that's what it's 495 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: all about there, trying to create reasonable doubt here. But 496 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: I tell you who really needs to comment on this 497 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: is George George Hiro because I tell you this, the 498 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: reality is this the odds, the odds in this case 499 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: will blow your mind. Okay, you know I was trying 500 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: to get it in regular people talk from you Joe Scott, 501 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: before I went to our DNA expert, but that that 502 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: got me nowhere. Uh, George Skiro, I know you're the 503 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: director at the Skills Biological Laboratory, but could you um 504 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: dial it down a notch. This is why I had 505 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: to go and meet with medical examiners before trial so 506 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: we could go through each line. And let me tell you, 507 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: it took hours to deal with a doctor and go 508 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: through each line of his or her report to get 509 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: them to explain it in terms we could all understand 510 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: even if we don't have a medical degree. So George, 511 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: please explain to me and especial lead to Dr Dana Bober, 512 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: the significance of the d n A in this case. Well, 513 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: in this case, according to what I've read, uh, the 514 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: there was DNA from Lewis found on her cell phone 515 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: and on her back. And what's been reported, It's been 516 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: reported as a match, and a match usually indicates a 517 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: single source. And then what will happen is whenever there's 518 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: an inclusion or match, we have to give us statistical 519 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: weight to it. And in this case, the statistical weight 520 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,479 Speaker 1: will probably be in the trillions, perhaps quadrillions if it's 521 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: a complete match, meaning that with the exception of a 522 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 1: possible identical twin, that that uh, that Chanel Lewis is 523 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: the source of that DNA sample on the back of 524 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: the cell phone. Uh. In addition, UM, there was a 525 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: mixture that was found under the fingernails, and it's a 526 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: mixture of several people, but they could not exclude Mr Lewis. 527 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: But then again, once you have the two strong matches, 528 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: that kind of outweighs everything else that might be or 529 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: maybe um, because when you have something, especially when it's 530 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: a cold case like this, and it was a cold case, 531 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: just not a very long term cold case. Uh, and 532 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: then you have someone's DNA profile developed on it, and 533 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: then that person's DNA profile is later determined by taking 534 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: a sample directly from that individual. Then UM, there's there's 535 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: not gonna be any any there's not gonna be able 536 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: to be anything saying that it was secondary DNA transfer 537 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: or it was Okay, okay, you're going all m d 538 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: on me right here, Hold on, George and Joe Scott. 539 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober So could you explain to me and 540 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: you're world. I'm not gonna say fantasy world. But in 541 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: your world, Dr Daniel Bober, how Chanel Louis, who she 542 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: had never met before d NA ends up on her 543 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: bare back. Well, he could have wandered up on the 544 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: body after it was already assaulted as well, and touched 545 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: her body and her phone and wandered up on it. 546 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: Believe me, it's not that kind of DNA, that's not 547 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: touched DNA. I have reason to believe it's sperm. You know, 548 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: semen from sex. But he also denied any sexual contact 549 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: with the victims, So if it was semen, then that 550 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 1: would make him a liar. Yeah, but I asked you again, 551 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: what in your world and your world of false coerced 552 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: confessions and conspiracy plots? Um? Dr Bober, could you give 553 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: me any reasonable explanation it's why he is sperm or 554 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: DNA is on her back and she's dead. Well, if 555 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: it's a semen, obviously that's pretty damning evidence. What what 556 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 1: Dr Bober? What what was that? Could you repeat that 557 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: for the court play? If it turns out to be 558 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: the biological material, if it's semen, then it's a pretty 559 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: damning evidence of that he committed the crime. I was 560 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: hoping you were going to go down the road of 561 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: the police planet it like you know, Ju Simpson, And 562 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 1: then I could wait to tell you that, yes, he 563 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: gave d N a volunt Well you have to. You 564 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: can't not give DNA if you have a warrant for it, 565 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: unlike giving a statement. You never have to do that. 566 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: But it was a bugle squad which was from his mouth. 567 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: And if I'm correct that this is sperm on her back. 568 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: You know, believe me, he did not give that up. 569 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: He gave a bugle squad, which is saliva. Guys, I 570 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: want to pause in our investigation to the brutal murder 571 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 1: of the jogger Karina pa Toronto, who was an accomplished woman, 572 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: had graduated, gorgeous, had a wonderful job and a bright future. 573 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: Now dead, and the man accused of killing her gives 574 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: a chilling, chilling, heart stopping confession quote. I finished her 575 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: off and she was calm. I guess she was. She 576 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: was facing down in water in a pool of mud. 577 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: Now he says he's not guilty. We are investigating the 578 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: facts as we know them with experts from around the country, 579 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: including George skiro DNA expert Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist 580 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: and death investigator and forensics professor Joseph Scott Morgan. I 581 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 1: want to thank now our partner who's making today's investigation possible. 582 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 1: If you're like everybody else, you probably haven't said no 583 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: very much to sugary sweets during the holiday season. But 584 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: that is exactly why you need a schedule an appointment 585 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: with an awesome dentist. You can find at one eight 586 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: hundred Dentist. 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Today. 612 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: When I done for dentist, we are discussing the facts 613 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: and the brutal, brutal death of this beautiful girl, Carena 614 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: a Toronto. I want you to hear what her father 615 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: feel tells me. There was plenty of evidence and I 616 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: was told by chief detectives the very next day saying 617 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: we're gonna get this guy, and we're gonna get him 618 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: right away. But little did anybody know that he, this person, 619 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 1: this murderer, was not in the database and his DNA 620 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: was never on fire. Oh, dear Lord in Heaven. Yes, Oh, 621 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: I just don't. I don't understand it, feel because this 622 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: is uh, this is contrary to everything I know, and 623 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: I know it to be true about cribble psychopathy. You 624 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: don't just suddenly one day commit a murder. It doesn't 625 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: happen like that typically, especially a murder like this. It's 626 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: so hard for me to believe he has never been 627 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: in trouble before. And the reason we're talking about this everyone. 628 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: For a moment, I was felt like I'm just talking 629 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 1: on the phone to feel the Toronto. This is Karina, 630 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: the Toronto's father. We're talking about DNA in the DNA 631 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: database codus like aphis, which is the fingerprint database. Everybody's 632 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: in there. If you have ever had a federal job, 633 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: a government job, if you've ever gotten booked on anything, 634 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: there's an Now, sometimes people get fingerprints for all sorts 635 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: of reasons, pawn shops, you name it. That goes into APHIST. 636 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: Now there's codas for d n A and if you 637 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: are convicted in many jurisdictions, your DNA goes into a 638 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: data bank. Whoever m ordered this beautiful girl, their DNA 639 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,839 Speaker 1: which was found at the Saint is not matching up 640 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: to a database. A lot of people don't understand that 641 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: only criminals DNA are in the database, so only targeting 642 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,840 Speaker 1: criminals with me. Jof Scott, Morgan, Dr. Daniel Bober and 643 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: George Skiro. George, could you explain what George Jeff Scott 644 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:28,320 Speaker 1: was saying earlier about the likelihood, the statistical likelihood that 645 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: this is Chanel Lewis's DNA. The statistical likelihood is going 646 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: to be probably in the millions, trillions or billions that 647 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: it's his d NA. Like I said, with the exceptional 648 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,839 Speaker 1: of identical twins, Um, he will probably be identified as 649 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 1: the source of that DNA. You mean like one out 650 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: of a trillion likelihood. Yeah, the probability of randomly selecting 651 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,439 Speaker 1: someone from the population would be one in a trillion. Okay, 652 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 1: hold on, let me think. So you're saying, see if 653 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 1: I'm taking a Vegas bet, and you know, of course, George, 654 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 1: I'm not a betting woman. Um, you're saying that it's 655 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: one out of three trillion or three trillion to one 656 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: that this is his DNA. I mean, how would you 657 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: say that? And common people talk so we can all 658 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: understand what you're talking about the way I would, I 659 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: would explain it is the probability of me closing my 660 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: eyes and just going out anywhere in the world and 661 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,360 Speaker 1: grabbing someone. The probability of me grabbing someone with that 662 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 1: profile would be one in however many trillion or quadrillion. 663 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 1: It may be well, why how many people are in 664 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,839 Speaker 1: the world? What's the world? I mean, that's bigger than 665 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 1: the world population, isn't it. Yes, currently the world population 666 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: is around seven point two billion. How did you just 667 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: know that off the top of your head? That's a 668 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: little freakyge or just a tiny bit. I wouldn't throw 669 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 1: that out again, just like that, at least pretend I 670 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,399 Speaker 1: was looking it up on Google or something. But I'm 671 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:50,839 Speaker 1: going to just take your word for it because you've 672 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 1: been right about everything else. To Dr Daniel Bober, I 673 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: want to get back to you about course confessions. I 674 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: feel like a cat holding a mouse between my paws 675 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: right now. It really feels good a Dr Bober, Now 676 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: what about this whole Coerse confession thinking, yes, I know 677 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: that they do happen. I know that they can happen. 678 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: I know it's very very rare, but that it can happen. 679 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,279 Speaker 1: But how can you even, let me just say, fix 680 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 1: your mouth to say that this could be a co 681 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,160 Speaker 1: Werse confession when his DNA is there and all everything 682 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,879 Speaker 1: he says matches the forensic evidence. Dr Bober, Yeah, I'm 683 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: not saying that it's extremely likely. I'm just saying, okay, now, 684 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,839 Speaker 1: that's not exactly the way you sounded the first time 685 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: I asked you, But you know what, I'll go with it. 686 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: So what this means, bottom line, is that the family 687 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: is going to have to live through a trial. And 688 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: I'm looking at a shot of Chanelle Lewis, he's actually 689 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 1: smiling at the camera. I mean, I don't know how 690 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 1: you do that. Kathy Vatronto, what's out a pained moan 691 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: as she hears for the first time Chanil Lewis calmly 692 00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: detail how he beat her daughter unconscious before he strangled 693 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,879 Speaker 1: her dead. This video that I'm talking about the reason 694 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: we know so much about it as because it was 695 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: played at a pre trial hearing and it showed the 696 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 1: alleged killer describing to police the attack. I was mad, 697 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:21,719 Speaker 1: quote I saw red, he says as to why he 698 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 1: killed her, and then he says that he killed the 699 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 1: Toronto uh that he found on a jogging trail because 700 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 1: a guy moved into my house and neighborhood. He says, 701 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: he grabs of the Toronto as she jogged past, that 702 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,239 Speaker 1: she clawed at his face and he beat her in 703 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,760 Speaker 1: the face five times before she was not unconscious. Quote, 704 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 1: she didn't yell she was finished. I finished her off. 705 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,800 Speaker 1: I strangled her. She fell into the puddle and drowned. 706 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: I got up, I wiped off the blood, and she 707 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,279 Speaker 1: was calm. She was in the pool of water. Then 708 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: he goes on to say, after he quote finished her off, 709 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,840 Speaker 1: I can stra eating out my stuff. Right, this is 710 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: about where do we go from here? Is this a 711 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: restitution program or something? Dr Daniel Bober Do you think 712 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,960 Speaker 1: they fed that to him too? Sounds pretty specific, It's 713 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: possible of it. Again, before he confessed, he told a 714 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,280 Speaker 1: detective Detective Barry Bowen, I want to change my life. 715 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: I'm sorry for what I did. He insists he did 716 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:24,440 Speaker 1: not molester, even though her jogging pants had been pulled down. Quote, 717 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:26,960 Speaker 1: I didn't do any of the stuff they said, sex assault, 718 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,960 Speaker 1: stuff like that, according to the tape. Then he says 719 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: he walked home quote shaken up, looking for napkins to 720 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,279 Speaker 1: stop the bleeding of the scratches on his face. Took 721 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,239 Speaker 1: six months to find him when he volunteerly gave a 722 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,880 Speaker 1: cheek swab and it it matched DNA found under the 723 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,840 Speaker 1: victim's fingernails. Now, George skiro other than there being a 724 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,600 Speaker 1: potential accomplice, why would there have possibly been other d 725 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: NA under her nails. Well, that's not uncommon to see 726 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: mixtures of DNA found under pete most finger nails. Uh, 727 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,479 Speaker 1: just coming in contact with everyday people, of the people 728 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,360 Speaker 1: in your household, Uh, there's gonna be other people whose 729 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,200 Speaker 1: DNA is going to accumulate there um. And also there 730 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: is a potential that, you know, whoever handled the body afterwards, 731 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: their DNA could have ended up there um. And like 732 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: I said, it's not uncommon to see mixtures under under fingernails. 733 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: I don't believe that there was any contamination. I'll tell 734 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 1: you why. Because the father, who was a retired fire 735 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 1: fire firefighter, calls in his friends at the n y 736 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,440 Speaker 1: p D. He was an n y P He was 737 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: an n y f D New York Fire Department and 738 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,839 Speaker 1: they're there with their friend and I think they gave 739 00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:41,280 Speaker 1: very careful attention to bagging her hands, explained Joe Scott. 740 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:43,400 Speaker 1: One of the steps that will take at at a 741 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 1: crime scene before the body is removed is it's a bag. 742 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: Will be specifically bagged in paper bags and taped around 743 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: the risk externally and that way in transport. First off, 744 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: the hands of the decease. You don't want them contacting 745 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,960 Speaker 1: anything that might otherwise leave some kind of trace evidence there. 746 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: And also anything that falls off of the hands and transport, 747 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: remember they're going back to the O. C M E 748 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: and bouncing down the road. Things can literally fall away 749 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,480 Speaker 1: from the hand and you fail to collect them. So 750 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 1: when bodies and a lot of people won't realize this 751 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,920 Speaker 1: when bodies arrive at the morgue. In cases like this, 752 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,719 Speaker 1: the bags are carefully clipped away from the hands and 753 00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,239 Speaker 1: the contents of anything. Some of the stuff is not 754 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,239 Speaker 1: seen with the unaided eye. That means you have to 755 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,920 Speaker 1: have a microscope or a high powered magnifying lens to 756 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,080 Speaker 1: see it. We're gonna test everything that's in that bag. 757 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 1: You just want to make sure that you don't lose anything. 758 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: And this is standard operating procedure in almost every major 759 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,760 Speaker 1: city that I know of where corners involved in medical 760 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,440 Speaker 1: examiners are involved. It's just the way we conduct business 761 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 1: on a daily basis, because we know these cases are 762 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: gonna come into question at some point in time. They're 763 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,239 Speaker 1: gonna go back and they're gonna look at these things 764 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,960 Speaker 1: with a fine toothcomb, making sure that we adhere to 765 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: the rules of evidence. Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrists joining us. 766 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,160 Speaker 1: I predict that this confession will come in. I think 767 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 1: the reason one of the reasons they're playing not guilty 768 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,400 Speaker 1: as they hope they'll get a deal and some prosecutor 769 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: will choose to take the deal rather than take it 770 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,720 Speaker 1: to trial. It but I predict it will go to trial. 771 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,840 Speaker 1: So Dr Bober, what would they have to show to 772 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 1: make a valid argument? Not that I believe it, but 773 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,480 Speaker 1: at least make a showing in court hoping one err 774 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 1: will get hung up on it. And this is a quote, 775 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,719 Speaker 1: as you say, conferred coerce confession. I would like to 776 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,879 Speaker 1: see a neuropsychological testing on the defendant. Uh, competency evaluation. 777 00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 1: I would just like to know more about his mental capacity. 778 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying. I want to thank one other 779 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 1: partner who was making our program possible, and it is 780 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,919 Speaker 1: link a k C. If you're like me, you don't 781 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: want to leave your pet out of all the fun 782 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,760 Speaker 1: this Christmas. And here's this year's quote must have gift 783 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,360 Speaker 1: for dogs and their owners. It's a link a k 784 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,360 Speaker 1: C smart collar. It's a back by by the American 785 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:54,040 Speaker 1: Kennel Club. It's a GPS locator, a fitness activity tracker, 786 00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:57,239 Speaker 1: and it's all control through your smartphone. It even has 787 00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 1: an LED light and temperature sensor. Not that I think 788 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,719 Speaker 1: your dog is going to need an LED light or 789 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,680 Speaker 1: temperature sensor. I love the GPS locator, and I'll tell 790 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,600 Speaker 1: you why. I don't have to worry about Fat Boy 791 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,040 Speaker 1: a k A nitrobe running down the street and getting 792 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,239 Speaker 1: run over. I can look straight at this app and 793 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,960 Speaker 1: see exactly where he is. It's total peace of mind. 794 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,839 Speaker 1: Then you've got the activity wellness tracker. Doesn't matter how 795 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: old or chubby your dog is, whether it's a pure 796 00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: breed or a mutt like fat Boy. Link A k 797 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,640 Speaker 1: C shows the amount of activity each and every dog needs. 798 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,279 Speaker 1: It's easy to set up and there are sizes for 799 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:39,600 Speaker 1: every dog. It's super comfy. Link A k C so 800 00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,240 Speaker 1: handsome or beautiful on your pit. Check out our Instagram, 801 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,719 Speaker 1: Facebook and Twitter to see the pictures I posted of 802 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:50,320 Speaker 1: fat Boy. Keep your dog safe, happy and healthy with 803 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: link a k C Risk Free ninety days. It's the 804 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,279 Speaker 1: perfect gift for you and your dog, and right now 805 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:03,000 Speaker 1: thirty all and free shipping on your order if you 806 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,640 Speaker 1: use code Nancy n A n C y at link 807 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,320 Speaker 1: a k C dot com for thirty percent off and 808 00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:13,200 Speaker 1: free shipping link a k C dot com code Nancy. 809 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,760 Speaker 1: Thank you for being your partner today. Nancy Grace Crime 810 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,520 Speaker 1: Stories signing off, Goodbye friend,