1 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Back in the late sixties, 2 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: probably my all time favorite television show premiered I was 3 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: a little boy. I'd wait on those certain weekday nights 4 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: for the show to appear, and I knew it was 5 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: coming home because of the music, and then the visuals 6 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: would just kind of burst on the screen, that tiny 7 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: TV that my MoMA and I had in our house, trailer, 8 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: gigantic waves, crashing, exotic land place. I didn't think i'd 9 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: ever go, still having to this day, but that show 10 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: was called a Wifeivo. I was amazed by it. And 11 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: you know what, at the end of each show, back 12 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: lord he was a detective. He solved every one of 13 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: those cases, it seemed like. But you know, for almost 14 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: fifty years, there was an unsolved homicide in Hawaii, one 15 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: that was so brutal they would never portray on that 16 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: television show from back then. I'm talking about the homicide 17 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: of Nancy Anderson. Today we're going to talk about it 18 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: and how that case has been solved. Finally, after all 19 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: these years. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. 20 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,839 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, when this case came across the wire, 21 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: and I began to read about it. It turned up 22 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: all kinds of memories from childhood for me, because you know, 23 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: you always felt liked that the police in Hawaii, We're 24 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: gonna solve these cases that they're confronted with. But you 25 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: realize that your idea that you have from Hawaii vow 26 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: from when you were a kid, that's merely fantasy. That 27 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: it is the real world out there and sometimes cases 28 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: just go unsolved. But now in the world that we 29 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: live in, with all of this technology at our disposal, 30 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: things are changing, and they certainly did in this case. 31 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: Joining me is Jackie Howard, executive producer for Nancy Grace's 32 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Jackie, I'll tell you what I know that 33 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 1: the family of Nancy Anderson is just beyond excited and 34 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: probably sad, but excited because finally, after all these years, 35 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: they appear to have some answers. Nancy Anderson was one 36 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: of nine children, it was a large family. So I'm 37 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: sure Joe that you are absolutely correct, and going back 38 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: to what you were saying in your opening, you're telling 39 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: our age because I did the same thing. Watched hawifive 40 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: O religiously when I was growing up, and never in 41 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: my life. Imagine that the kind of things that were 42 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: on that show were real that actually happened in the 43 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: real world. Covering this case, nineteen year old Nancy Anderson 44 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: moved from Michigan to Waikie Key after graduating high school. 45 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: She was nineteen years old. She was working Adam McDonald's 46 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 1: and when she died. When she was killed, it really 47 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: put a scare in her neighbors in the apartment complex 48 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: because they had no idea what was going on. Was 49 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: their exterial killer running round? Was there a killer amongst them? 50 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: Was somebody else going to be targeted next? The leads 51 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: in this case dried up quickly after looking at boyfriend, salesman, neighbors, 52 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: co workers. The tips dried up. And you're right, it 53 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: took over fifty years to solve this case. What happens, 54 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: Joe when a case gohoes called like this? Obviously technology 55 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: has grown tremendously in the last fifty years, But how 56 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: do you mount an investigation when there really is nothing 57 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: to go on. It's almost like a ghost appeared in 58 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: Nancy's life and ended it. And this is not something 59 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: just you know, just so that we understand that the 60 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: brutality that was involved in this homicide, I can imagine 61 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: by those standards, and during that time was absolutely shocking. 62 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: They were in Wiki Key. This is a location that 63 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: for the most part, people go for vacation or maybe 64 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: if there have the ability, you know, maybe someplace to retire. 65 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: But young Nancy, and she was just out of high school. 66 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I think less than a year at that point, 67 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: and she she had made a decision during that period 68 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: of time, which is something you kind of hear a 69 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: lot about now, taking what's called a gap year. You know, 70 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: I'm a college professor now and there are kids that 71 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: take gap years. It is that period of time between 72 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: the end of high school and generally you go off somewhere, 73 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: you get a job, maybe a travel and some people 74 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: think that it's a good idea because you matured a 75 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: little bit during that period of time before you actually 76 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 1: start your college years. And that's what she had done, 77 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: and from what we understand, you know, it was it 78 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: was her dream. But it was an absolute nightmare because 79 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: if you're a police officer and you walk into this 80 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: apartment after the roommate has essentially found Nancy deceased, and 81 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: you know, the roommate, the roommate at first thought that 82 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: this was a suicide. Isn't that amazing she thought that 83 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 1: it was a suicide. So, you know, when this call 84 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: comes out over the radio and there we have codes. Actually, 85 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: you know where where you'll you'll hear a radio code 86 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: that'll come out. And I'll give you an example. When 87 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: I was in New Orleans at twenty nine, if at 88 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: twenty nine came out over the radio, that meant death, Okay, 89 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: that means it's a code for death. And then if 90 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: it's at twenty nine, that was code for death suicide. 91 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: And so can you imagine you're a beat officer and 92 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: maybe just came up as a death, maybe suspected suicide. 93 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: You'll roll onto the scene and it is far from 94 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: a suicide. You've got this young woman who has absolutely 95 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,799 Speaker 1: been brutalized and she's only been there for a short 96 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: period of time. You know, you first glance, you know 97 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: she's living with a roommate, she's got a job, she's 98 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: gainfully employed. There's no signs of forced to entry or struggle. 99 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: And you're thinking, well, what kind of enemy could she 100 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: have made that would absolutely rip her to shreds like this? 101 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: And I can only imagine that the local police. We're 102 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: scratching their heads in this case, once the autopsy was 103 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: done on the body, I would have been scratching my 104 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: head too. The information that was released found that Anderson 105 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: was stabbed at least sixty three times. Sixty three separate 106 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: wounds were visible. Now, as you and I've talked a lot, 107 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: that number can actually be deceiving, Joe, because depending on 108 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: how in the position the stabs were made, you may 109 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: not be able to really count them. You're absolutely right, 110 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: there's a big difference between stab and slice. The boiler 111 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: plate for it. When we're describing them in terms of 112 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: forensic pathology, the stabs tend to be narrow and deep, okay, 113 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: And we can imagine that and just imagine a stag 114 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: knife in your hand. You're going to plunge it into 115 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: a target, if you will, so it'll be narrow and deep, okay. 116 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: And if it's a slice, which is different than a 117 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: stab wound, you're cutting across the surface and those are 118 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: more shallow and they're longer, all right. So you just 119 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: think about you know, in the idea of you're slicing something, Okay, 120 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: you're slicing a piece of paper, it's going to be 121 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: shallow and it'll be so. The fact that they said 122 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: that these were stab wounds, they didn't say that they 123 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: were sharp force injury. They didn't say that there was 124 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: a mixture of these wounds gives you an indication that 125 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: they saw evidence of stabbing. Now to your point, and 126 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: this is you're right on the money here, because with 127 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: a stab wound and you have this many, you'll get 128 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: this mixture of these things. And it's hard to try 129 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: to understand where one ends and one begins because you 130 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: have to think, first off, if it is sharp force, 131 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: that means that you're in a very tight personal space 132 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,959 Speaker 1: with the individual. So if you have an attacker that 133 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: has an individual the victim, on the floor and they're 134 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: on top of them, these wounds tend to be highly concentrated, 135 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: that means like right on top of one another. Imagine, 136 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: if you will, an old fashioned sewing machine with the 137 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: needle in place. You're moving that needle, or that needle 138 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: is you know, is going up and down at a 139 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: rapid motion, and it's striking very precise areas because of 140 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: the close proximity to it. The only thing that changes 141 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: is moving the cloth beneath the needle in the same 142 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: principle with a stab wound, it's over and over a 143 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: close proximity. You've got this kind of piston like action 144 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: of the individual that is withdrawing the blade and then 145 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: reintroducing the blade into the body. And not all of 146 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: these injuries are going to be the same depth, which 147 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: is something you have to account for. It autopsy, you 148 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: get an idea as to how deep these insults are 149 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: going into the body, because you know, every time you 150 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: plunge a knife down into someone's chest or their back 151 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: or their abdomen, these wounds are going to be striking 152 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: different anatomical structures. Beneath the skin. You might say, for instance, 153 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: to strike the abdomen, and you're just going to go 154 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: through the abdominal wall, which is made up primarily of 155 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: the skin subcue fat in the underlying muscle. But if 156 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: you move up the torso, now you begin to get 157 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: into the area where your organs are protected by your 158 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 1: rib cage, your interior ribs. So unless you make it 159 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: in between the ribs, which is that's called the intercostal space, 160 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: you have muscle that's in between the ribs, then you're 161 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: going to strike bones. So that wound is obviously not 162 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: going to be as deep as say, if you plunge 163 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: the knife into the into the abdom and the same 164 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: as true with the back, and as a matter of fact, 165 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: you're dealing with even more structures back there because you 166 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: have the scapula, which are the shoulder blades, and then 167 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: you're also talking about the bony prominences of the spine. 168 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: So you begin to think about how many of these 169 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: wounds were actually fatal, and that's one of the issues 170 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: that the forensic mythologist has to deal with when they're 171 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: doing this examination. What vessels are clipped, what organs are impacted, 172 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: and then ultimately, you know, you begin to measure the 173 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: amount of visit blood that you have contained, say, for instance, 174 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: in the abdomen or in either side of the chest, 175 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: the left chest or the right chest, and you begin 176 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: to appreciate maybe what organs were impacted to the point 177 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: where it was no longer compatible life, and you can 178 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: also get a sense for how much blood free flowed 179 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: through those spaces. Another surprising finding of the pathology report 180 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: is the absence of any drugs or alcohol in Nancy 181 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: Anderson's body, and the fact that she had not been raped. 182 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: There was no sexual assault. So if you take out 183 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: two likely scenarios for Nancy's death, that is in something 184 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: happened while she's intoxicated or an assault, this makes this 185 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:51,200 Speaker 1: a really strange circumstance. You throw around word like sadistic, 186 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: you know, sadistic, you know kind of falls under this 187 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: kind of psychosexual motivations for killings, you know, sadism, all 188 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: those sorts of things, not say, but sadism you don't 189 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: have to necessarily have, and you can talk to most 190 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: forensic psychologists that are out there, you know, you don't 191 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: necessarily have to have what would be considered a classic 192 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: sexual assault, you know, where clothing is ripped away and 193 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: you have evidence of sexual assault through rape and these 194 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: sorts of things. To have something that is motivated by lust. Okay, 195 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: because part of this, on this kind of spectrum, you 196 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: can have an individual that will attack someone and rip 197 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: them to shreds and they receive some kind of gratification 198 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: out of this. What's fascinating about this is you begin 199 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 1: to think back then Honolulu. We mentioned it being portrayed 200 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: on television. It's very exotic, and you see, this is 201 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: not a tiny, tiny town. This is a place where 202 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: you know, we've been there, Our nation has been there 203 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: for years and years, occupying space, a lot of military personnel, 204 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people coming and go in out of 205 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: this area. And so when you see something this brutal 206 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: as an investigator, you begin to think, well, do I 207 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 1: have any other cases that might fit within this category? 208 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: Because I think most of us that are we're investigators. 209 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: We don't think that this is going to be a 210 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: one off event. There's somebody that would rise to this 211 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: level and attack a total stranger, a young woman that 212 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: is just graduated from high school. You have to think that, well, 213 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 1: are there more victims out there? Do you have some 214 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: type of killer that is roaming about that takes pleasure 215 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: in absolutely just ripping a young woman to shreds like this? 216 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: So it makes you examine the evidence very hard. And 217 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 1: I think that on one hand, if you're looking for 218 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: physical evidence, so certainly a sexual assault can be rich 219 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: with that because you can find all kinds of things 220 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: relative to a sexual assault that you might not find 221 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: in another case. Say, for instance, if you have a 222 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: sexual assault, there might be an opportunity if you're going 223 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: to do what are called pubic combings, which is something 224 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: we do as part of a rape, because you might 225 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: find a pubic here that's not associated with the victim. Okay, 226 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: you might find seminal stains, for instance. And back then, 227 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: one of the things that we look for in cases, 228 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: because we didn't have DNA that we would turn to 229 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: was if you had saliva or if you had siminal stains, 230 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: you would look for someone that's referred to as a secret. 231 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: And there's you know, just less than fifty percent of 232 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: the population and I don't know the figure exactly off 233 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: the top of my head are secrets. And what that 234 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: means is that when you test those samples from either 235 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: saliva or from semen, and there are other elements of 236 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: the body as well, but in those in particular, you 237 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: can actually find red blood cells contained in those areas. 238 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: So back then, with the absence of DNA, you can 239 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: actually type the blood based upon you know, those secretions 240 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: that you might find in the course. As you mentioned, 241 00:14:55,240 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: in this case, there was no evidence of that. And 242 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: it goes without saying nineteen seventy two where that was 243 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: a different a different time than present day. So much 244 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: has changed since that time. But you know what, basic 245 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: crime scene investigation has not changed, has not changed one wit. 246 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: And in this case, I think that the police actually 247 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: had more to go on than they thought. A lot 248 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: of that information came from Nancy Anderson's roommate. So one 249 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: of the things I've learned from you, Joe, was like, 250 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: let's start at the beginning and set up our timeline. 251 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: So we know that Nancy Anderson was talking to believe 252 00:15:55,480 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: it or not, two door to door knife salesman the 253 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: afternoon when her roommate came home. She told police she 254 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: saw Nancy talking to these two gentlemen in the living room. 255 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: Now from there she went into her room, and that 256 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: time was around two o'clock that afternoon, and the body 257 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: wasn't found for approximately three hours later that afternoon, after 258 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: the roommate went to take a nap. The body was 259 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: found around five fifteen. The roommate found Nancy Anderson's body 260 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: in the bathroom. So I've got a couple of questions 261 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: about that, But my main question is, we know, with 262 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: over sixty stab wounds that this was a very very 263 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: violent death, and she moved from the living room where 264 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: she was originally talking to the salesman to the bathroom. 265 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: How could even if the roommate when she first woke up, 266 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: she thought that Nancy had committed suicide because of how 267 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: she was in the bathroom. But if this had been 268 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: a very violent attack, as we believe it was, how 269 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: could she not have heard it? How is that even possible? 270 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: And I want to visit this idea of thinking that 271 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: it was suicide. My thought on this when I first 272 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: read this. Because the room, the bathroom that is, has 273 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: been described as almost being bathed in blood, super saturated 274 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: with blood. I think there's something within us in our mind. 275 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: And I'm talking about from the perspective of the roommate. 276 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: I think her initial reaction was probably suicide because it's 277 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: almost like she's protecting herself, you know what I mean. 278 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: I mean it's like, you think about it, you think 279 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: I cannot imagine, maybe at an unconscious level, that a 280 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: homicide has taken place in my presence you were talking 281 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: about just a second ago, where how could she have 282 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: not heard this? And I think that there's almost this 283 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: safety switch that flipped on possibly with her where she's saying, oh, well, 284 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: it had to be a suicide, you know, because I 285 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: can't imagine that homicide has been perpetrated and to this 286 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: degree when I am asleep just right down the hall 287 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: from where this horror show takes place. And so her 288 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: initial reaction was, yeah, this is a suicide. She noticed, 289 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: and you know what was what cued her is that 290 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: when she woke up, and this is a very important 291 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: piece of information here from an investigator standpoint, she heard 292 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: water running. The water was running in the bathroom adjacent 293 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: to where Nancy's remains were found, and that gives you 294 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: an indication after of course, you know you've inspected seen 295 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: as the investigator, gives you an indication as to what 296 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: was going on, potentially that maybe, just maybe there was 297 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: an attempt by the perpetrator to clean himself up at 298 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: that point in time, that they were making some kind 299 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: of effort to get rid of evidence that they may 300 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: have on their body. Because if the room is bathed 301 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: in blood, this is not something that this individual is 302 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: going to get away with cleanly. They will concurrently be 303 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 1: saturated in blood, particularly over the surface of their hands. 304 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: If they're wearing long sleeved shirts, that'll be up to 305 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: the elbow perhaps, if not, if the lower arm is 306 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: not protected, you're going to have blood stain on both 307 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 1: the palmer aspect of the form and probably the top 308 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: side of the forearm as well, even beneath the fingernails, 309 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: because blood is so tacky, it's kind of the way 310 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: that it transfers to the body. So with the water running, 311 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: would I would suspect that if there had been a 312 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 1: bar soap sitting there. Remember this is before the days 313 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: of you know, where you've got some kind of pump 314 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: bottle of liquid soap. They didn't do that back then. 315 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: You would have a know, a bar of old fashioned 316 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: hand soap that was sitting there perhaps and the individual 317 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: was washing their hands or making an attempt and soap 318 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: is There's been any number of cases where people have 319 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: transferred blood from their hands to soap, and you know, 320 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: of course we collect that and you can get valuable 321 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: evidence off of the surfaces. Soap because it has such 322 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: attacking us about it, it'll hold on to a number 323 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: of things. You know, you can find hair on there, 324 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: you can find dead skin cells. You can also find 325 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: blood that will transfer over there. You know, as you're 326 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: holding this, so the thing that you're attempting to clean 327 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: up with can actually be the thing that trips you up. 328 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: I think that probably what it came down to is 329 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: that within this environment. I found a number I mean 330 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: a number of towels that have been used, and of 331 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: course there was blood on the surface of that. So 332 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: that's going to be a big starting place for the police. 333 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: In this case, you were talking about the wounds, Joe. 334 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: There were lots of injuries, but that the pathology report, 335 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: the autopsy described as defensive wounds on her arms and 336 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: her legs. How do you know the difference? How can 337 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: you tell the difference in these kind of wounds? Excellent question. 338 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons is that I call this 339 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: an excellent question is that if you're targeting an individual 340 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: as an aggressor driving a knife through either the palm 341 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: of someone's hand or through the back of someone's hand, 342 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: or through the webbing. You know where you slice through 343 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: the webbing, and folks will look at their index finger 344 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: and their thumb and that area right in between there. 345 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: That's often where we'll see a slice injury because people 346 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: will grab hold of the blade. You'll see it on 347 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: the palmer aspect or on the palm itself of the 348 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: hands where the knife will kind of pass over that 349 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: surface and cut the hand right there as well. Those 350 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: are atypical what we refer to as atypical injuries because 351 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,719 Speaker 1: you think of an attacker an aggressor if you will 352 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: moving forward toward a target, Well, where are they going 353 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: to try to stab when they're not looking down at 354 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: the sides of the body where they're going to aim 355 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: for the hands or maybe the arms. If you throw 356 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: your forearm up in a blocking motion, that's that's not 357 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: what their target is. In kind of this defensive posture 358 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: that we naturally go into as a response to something 359 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: that's oncoming, whether it's a car, a knife, or somebody 360 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: has thrown a gun up at us to shoot at us. 361 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: You know, people throw their hands up in arms up 362 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: as a defensive posture. It's just kind of a natural reaction. 363 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: The way you're able to kind of discern between these 364 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: types of injuries is the fact that the typical attacking 365 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: area is going to be the neck, the face, maybe 366 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: certain areas of the head, and certainly the chest in 367 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: the abdomen. I mean, that's that's what the attacker is 368 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: going after. And you know what's really curious about this 369 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 1: case as well, and I've gotten my thoughts about this. 370 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up these injuries on the legs. 371 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: You don't commonly hear of defensive injuries to the legs. 372 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: My thought is is that he had Nancy in a 373 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: submissive position, probably on her backside on the floor, and 374 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: she is attempting to kick him away with her legs, 375 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: and he's just flailing at her with his knife. And 376 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: so as she is kicking at him, he's flailing with 377 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: a knife, he's actually attempting to stab at her legs. 378 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: And this is my other thought. You know how we 379 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: talked about there was an absence of evidence of a 380 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 1: sexual attack. Okay, maybe this was an incomplete attack. Maybe 381 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: something spooked this individual, because let's think about it. The 382 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: individual has gotten Nancy on her back in a submissive position, 383 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: he's dominant. I've used the term asymmetrical before, and this 384 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: is an asymmetrical attack where you've got someone that's an 385 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: a dominant position above and there's wing down. You can 386 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: have it in bludgeoning cases, you can have it stabblished. Hello, 387 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: you can even have it in shooting cases where you're 388 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: in a dominant position above the individual. And so maybe, 389 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: just maybe the individual's goal was to perpetrate a sexual attack, 390 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: but they couldn't complete the action. Maybe they got spooked 391 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: in some way, maybe they heard something. I'm thinking that 392 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: this individual had to have known, had to have known 393 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: that the roommate was there. But wait, Joe, if we 394 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: were to make an assumption that the killer was one 395 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: of the two salesmen, which would seem to be an 396 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: obvious jump, since they were just there and the roommates 397 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: saw them, then we would know the person knew that 398 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: the roommate was their right quite potentially. And isn't it 399 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: odd to these two salesmen that the roommate witness they're 400 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: selling silverware. You know, you got a figure that contained 401 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: in the silverware. You've got sharp instruments, right, any kind 402 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: of knives, I would imagine you maybe you have you know, 403 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: some people call them case knives, butter knives, you know 404 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. You might have steak knives. You 405 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 1: have all of these sharp instruments. And not to mention, 406 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: you've got serving forks. You've got regular forks, salad forks, 407 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: anything that has a point on it like that. And 408 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: they're selling this And these are the last two people 409 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: that the roommates saw in connection to Nancy. And I 410 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: find that so odd in this case. What are the 411 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: odds of that that those would be, these two individuals 412 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: selling these types of items would be part of this 413 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: story is super bizarre. And of course as investigators, you're 414 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 1: going after these people and they will be known because 415 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,119 Speaker 1: you know, back then, during that time, you and I 416 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: had an offair discussion about experiences that we had, particularly 417 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: when we were younger. You know, vacuum cleaner salesman would 418 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: come by the house regularly, you know, I mean people 419 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: sold encyclopedias. They'd come to your door and sell them. 420 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: So you'd have salesman, traveling salesman that will come about. 421 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: And if they've gone to these two young women's apartment 422 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 1: and knocked on the door, guess what they've knocked on 423 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: other people's stores as well. They've probably left contact information 424 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: with people, so they would be easy for the cops 425 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: to track down at that point. And you're own an island, 426 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: you ain't going nowhere, so they can track them down. 427 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 1: I would imagine that early owning the investigation, they were 428 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: able to kind of strike these two individuals off the list. 429 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: So I am fascinated by the bathroom yet again, because 430 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 1: the bathroom seems to be a place where a lot 431 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: of people end up and getting murdered in the bathroom. 432 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: Do we have a tendency to think that the bathroom 433 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: is some kind of I don't know. You see it 434 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: in horror movies. You see it when we're talking about 435 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,479 Speaker 1: hurricanes or I mean with tornadoes or bad weather. The 436 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: bathroom is safe. The bathroom is safe. Is that kind 437 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,400 Speaker 1: of just something that's ingrained in us? If I can 438 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: get to the BA bathroom and shut the door, I 439 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: will be safe. Yeah, it's a it's a point of retreat. 440 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: And I got to tell you there's an interesting little 441 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: aside here as well. And you know, I've posed this 442 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: question to my students a lot and people that I 443 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: talked to, and you talk to other people that were 444 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 1: in my profession medical legal death investigators. You ask them 445 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: and say, well, where do you generally work the most 446 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: deaths in a home as a death investigator? And automatically 447 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: hands will go up and they'll say the bathroom. Well 448 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: it's for a different reason though than this, okay, And 449 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: it's kind of odd. Most people don't think about it. 450 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,479 Speaker 1: But we have something that's referred to actually as toilet 451 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: sign and it's just a term that we use because 452 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: we find that a lot of people deceased on the 453 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: toilet because one of the leading cause of death in 454 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: America's heart disease, and of course people have m eyes 455 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: or heart attacks and they will have a need to 456 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: go to the bathroom. You'll find them deceased on the 457 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: toilet many times. But people do in fact retreat to bathrooms. 458 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: You know, it's seemingly And there's also another piece to this. 459 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 1: I think that many times perpetrators will do great harm 460 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: to people and then to cover their tracks. The bathroom 461 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: is what you refer to as a wet room. Right, 462 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 1: So what is the best area other than running the 463 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: risk of taking someone outside of a freestanding dwelling and 464 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: rinsing the body and the evidence off in the yard. 465 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: The best place you're going to have protection, we have 466 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: access to water is going to be the bathroom. You 467 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: can put potties in tubs, you can wash your hands 468 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: in the sink. You've got tile floor. Many times you'd 469 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: think that you can rinse it down. It's not going 470 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: to soak through through wood or carpet or whatever. So 471 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: it's an environment in which I think is a natural 472 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: place for perpetrators to go. And for some reason, many 473 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: times it's a place for people to retreat to. I 474 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: don't necessarily know that that was the case in Nancy's death. 475 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: Maybe she had the thought that she could put distance 476 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: between herself and her attacker after she was initially attacked 477 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: in that front room and retreated to the bathroom, but 478 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: she too much harm was done at that point. She 479 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: couldn't get this guy off of her. I will never 480 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: stop mentioning Edmond Lecard on the show is he is 481 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: the godfather of all things forensics as far as I'm concerned. 482 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: And of course we go back to Leocard's exchange principle 483 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: where he said every not some, but every contact leaves 484 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: a trace. And in this case, the one thing that 485 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: the perpetrator left behind was an essence of themselves there 486 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: at that scene. And that essence, of course was blood. 487 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: There was lots of blood found in this apartment and 488 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: blood towels. Whether that was from trying to clean themselves 489 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: up or trying to quell the spread of the blood 490 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: from the wounds. It ended up being a wealth of information. 491 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: It just took a long time to figure out the 492 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: information that they needed. Talk to me a little bit 493 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: about the blood, Joe, because what kind of testing does 494 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: it go through to begin with, I'm not even talking 495 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: about getting to the DNA. I'm just talking about in general. 496 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: Do they break it down in some way? Yeah, yeah, 497 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: they do. And so when you begin to think about 498 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: this with blood, and I want our listeners to really 499 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: understand that because you walk away hopefully every time you 500 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: listen to body bags with a little bit more information. 501 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: When we go out to a scene, we might see 502 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: a crusted red stain somewhere. Now you might suspect that 503 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: that's blood, but you never say that it is blood, 504 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,959 Speaker 1: not until you can confirm it. And so there's a 505 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: series of testing that's done even to this day. Just 506 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: because you see something red doesn't mean that it's necessarily blood. 507 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: And you know, just because something is another color doesn't 508 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: mean that it's not blood. Well, let me let me 509 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: test what I've learned from each other. Yeah, a fresh 510 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: blood stain will be bright red. However, a blood stain 511 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: that's been there for a while, as it oxidizes, begins 512 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: to turn a darker brown color. Yes, it does. I 513 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: got it, actually right, you did, hey, and let me 514 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: let me give you this is for extra credit. Do 515 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: you recall what happens if you have a pool of 516 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: blood over a period of time, one begins to happen there. Oh, 517 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: I'm not getting any extra credit. Okay, Well, what begins 518 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: to happen is that after blood has been pooled for 519 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: a while on the ground, you'll see the red blood 520 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: cells begin to migrate away from the serum. Wait wait, 521 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: wait and explain that migrate away from the way. Yeah, 522 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,239 Speaker 1: the blood. Blood is not a standalone liquid. It's not 523 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: like you know, you've got water, which, of course water's 524 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: got two components hydrogen oxygen. But with blood, it has 525 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: multiple components. So as it's not circulating through the body, 526 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: it'll separate out into various components. And one of the 527 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: things that you see happen is that the serum, which 528 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: is clear, will begin to separate from the red blood 529 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: cells and you'll see it and it migrates away, so 530 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: you'll have this disdain that actually changes color. But to 531 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: a bigger issue here. One of the things that we 532 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: do we have to confirm whether or not something is 533 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: in fact blood. So there's a test you can do 534 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: in the field to determine if it is in fact blood, 535 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: because you don't want to waste your time on something 536 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: that's not blood. But you have to eliminate it, right, 537 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: If it is blood, you have to determine, well, is 538 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: it animal or human? So we then do another test, 539 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: a confirmatory test in that area, and then it's at 540 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: that point that you begin to do blood typing. That's 541 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: kind of where things kind of froze back in nineteen 542 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: seventy two, if you will. And what they determined is 543 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: that the blood that they had at the scene, obviously 544 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: there was a lot of Nancy's blood that was spilled. 545 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: You know, God rest her soul. She went through a 546 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: horrible event here. But they found they found the essence 547 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: of somebody else, and that individual happened to be a positive. 548 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: And we know our blood groupings, you know, we've got 549 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: A and B and O, and then you've got positives 550 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: and negatives and all these sorts of things. But a 551 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 1: pause is actually the second most frequent blood type, and 552 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: this is kind of how we used to narrow down 553 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: who perpetrated a crime or who we would have interest 554 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: in speaking to. So if it's the second most frequent 555 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: blood type, it doesn't do a lot of good. It 556 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: doesn't help you as much as you would like for 557 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: it to say, for instance, if you had a B 558 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: pause or AB nag, which tend to be more rare. 559 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: You got a pause which is the second most frequent, 560 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: which about I don't know if thirty four percent of 561 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: population has, but it's a place to start, right and 562 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: that's what you're looking for, because right now you don't 563 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: have anything, or the police didn't, and so what I 564 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 1: would what I am I'm just fascinated by in this case, 565 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: and if I shake their hand, I would do it 566 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: to this day, the crime scene investigators that were at 567 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: that scene on that faithful day back in nineteen seventy two, 568 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: they did something that many departments cannot effectively do even today, 569 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: and that is the blood evidence that they had at 570 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: that scene, they preserved it. They preserved it so that 571 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: fifty years later, imagine that, fifty years later, they were 572 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 1: able to take a blood sample off of a towel 573 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: that was evidence in arguably one of the most brutal 574 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: homicides up to that point that had taken place and 575 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: certainly unsolved homicides that have taken place in Honolulu at 576 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: that point in time, and they were able to actually 577 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 1: get a DNA profile off of this unknown blood sample. 578 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: This this a positive person that was just floating around 579 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: out there that no one knew. Okay, I've got my 580 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: hand up, professor. I know you can't see me because 581 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: we're in two separate locations. But how did they actually 582 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: preserve that? In moving a body from the death location 583 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: to the morgue, if there's a suspected murder or attack, 584 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: the hands are covered with paperbag as opposed to plastic because, 585 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,959 Speaker 1: as you've taught me, plastic makes the hand sweat, which 586 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: can change what you're going to be, can change your findings. 587 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,919 Speaker 1: How do you preserve that type of an evidence. A 588 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: towel which number one possibly could be wet because we 589 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: know there was water running, is wet from the blood 590 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: in it. So how do you keep it from molding? 591 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: How do you keep from degrading? How do you store it? Well, 592 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: it has to be dried. And I can't speak to 593 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: what technology they had at the police department in Honolulu 594 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: back in nineteen seventy two, but I can tell you this, 595 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 1: If the towel was wet, which obviously we know that 596 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: there was blood on it, so it had to have 597 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: been wet. First off, your right in remembering back, we 598 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: don't put plastic bags on hands because it makes things sweat. 599 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, forensic science is not rocket science. We're 600 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: not going to Mars here. Anybody can understand this. It's 601 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: actually common sense. It's what it comes down to. If 602 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: you don't want something to sweat, don't put it in plastic. 603 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: And you have this wet sample, it has to go 604 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: into a conveyance like a paper bag, just like we 605 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: put on the hands. I've actually put paper bags over 606 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: heads before because you've got valuable evidence. It's there, and 607 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: you don't want to make that area around the heads 608 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: sweat with plastic. It's certainly not something that you would do. 609 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: But if you're trying to preserve, for instance, firearm evidence, 610 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: I've had projectiles that are barely almost about to fall 611 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 1: out of the side of the head that's just beneath 612 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: the skin. So I will not remove it at the scene. 613 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 1: You don't want to do that, you want to be 614 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: able to document it. I'll put a paper bag over 615 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 1: the head. And it's the same principle. Even with these towels, 616 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: they're damp, so what they would have had to have 617 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: done is take them back in an environment that is 618 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: conducive to dry this item out, because once you dry 619 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: it out. Once you dry it out, it's kind of 620 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: frozen in time at that point in time, and then 621 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: you have to stort safely so that all of these 622 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: years later, First off, it's not going to degrade to 623 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: the point where you can't get a usable sample off 624 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: of it, and it's not going to be exposed to 625 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 1: changes in relative humidity. You know where it's going to 626 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,399 Speaker 1: rise and fall, and where it's a predictable environment where 627 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: you can go back and you can actually access this 628 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: and cut a sample out of it and test it, 629 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 1: which is eventually what has happened in this particular case. 630 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: They did such a fantastic job all those years ago, oh, 631 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,800 Speaker 1: all these years ago, where the scientists, the modern scientists, 632 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: were able to go back and snip some of that 633 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: area because you don't want to use all of it, 634 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: but snip some of that sample area and use it 635 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 1: and apply modern scientific technique to it. And you know, 636 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 1: now we have evolved to such a point in our 637 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: technology where we don't need as large a sample any 638 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: longer in order to generate a biological or DNA profile 639 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 1: on an individual. You know, we can do smaller and smaller. 640 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,760 Speaker 1: Now we don't require as large large of a sample 641 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: of blood in order to facilitate this, not just blood, 642 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: but any kind of biological sample that we might can 643 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,879 Speaker 1: harvest DNA front. But how would you do it? I mean, 644 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: if that towel is wet with blood, like we know, 645 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: is it. It's not like you're going to put it 646 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: in the dryer. I mean, do you get you say that? 647 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: You say that, but did you know that there are 648 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: actually forensic evidence dryers and they're not tumble dryers. These 649 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: are Yeah, they're actually glass boxes that are utilized. We 650 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: have them in morgues, they have them at forensic laboratories 651 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: where you just knock down all of the humidity in 652 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: the environment and the thing just dries out. It dries 653 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: in place, and so you can go back once that 654 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: is preserved and let's say blood, for instance, it doesn't 655 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: have that tackiness to it any longer. It's actually a 656 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 1: dried sample that you have there. You can preserve it. 657 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,800 Speaker 1: It's not going to modify it to the point where 658 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: someone that knows what they're doing can't grab a sample 659 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 1: off of it that's going to do a trimming, you know, 660 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,200 Speaker 1: where they're going to go in at a very minuscule 661 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: section of that sample clip some of it out. They 662 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: can actually produce a sample from that that they are 663 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: able to examine and to develop a profile out of. 664 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,919 Speaker 1: And one of the things, for instance, that we do 665 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: at autopsy will take what are called blood cards, and 666 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting. They'll reserve at autopsy a tiny 667 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: blood droplet and it will go onto a specially treated card, 668 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 1: and that card is actually filed away and we can 669 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: hang on to that blood sample for a protracted period 670 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: of time, a long time. But you know, we're not 671 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: necessarily talking about a card here, We're actually talking about 672 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: an unknown blood sample on this towel. Now here's what's key. 673 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 1: They were able to preserve enough of it even in 674 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: the face of having previously identified let's don't forget, they 675 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: previously identified this blood droplet as what AB pause at 676 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 1: that point, so they had already sampled it before, way 677 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,800 Speaker 1: back when when they sampled every region on that towel, 678 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: they were able to go through it and eliminate Nancy's 679 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,240 Speaker 1: blood type out of there. But somehow they were able 680 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 1: to find that sample on their way back when sample 681 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 1: it and type it and come back with AB pause, 682 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: and they saved enough of it after all of these 683 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,439 Speaker 1: years to go back and create a DNA profile off 684 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: of that drop little blood. You were talking about being 685 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: able to rule people out. We talked earlier about the 686 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: traveling salesman and they were ruled out. They passed a 687 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: polygraph test as well as their fingerprints did not match 688 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 1: what was found on the murder scene. So years pass 689 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: storage of all this important, delicate information that you're talking about, 690 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: and technology improves, and all of a sudden, we've got 691 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: all these big words thrown about Joe that I'm going 692 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: to let you choose which one you want to talk about. 693 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 1: We've got phenotyping, We've got genealogy, we've got the new 694 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: DNA testing. Pick one, now let's start. I know I'm 695 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: going to pick one. Let's start with the phenotyping. What 696 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: is it and what good did it do with the investigation. Well, 697 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: the phenotyping is quite fascinating because you can take a 698 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: sample of blood in this case, and you can actually 699 00:41:55,200 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 1: begin to run a test in order to develop a snapshot, 700 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 1: if you will, of a probable suspect. And when I 701 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: say probable suspect, this is the beauty of it, and 702 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: it's amazing. Can you imagine, you know, five generations ago, 703 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: maybe even four generations go actually telling somebody back in 704 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 1: time that we would be able to do this with 705 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: the phenotyping based upon their DNA profile, you can develop 706 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 1: a pretty good guess about what race the individual is, 707 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,839 Speaker 1: what their hair color is. And in this case, in 708 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: this particular case, they were able to as a result 709 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: of this phenotype, determined that the individual at twenty five 710 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 1: years of age would look like an individual with average 711 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,759 Speaker 1: body mass, had a BMI They estimated with the phenotype 712 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: of twenty two, which is kind of on the average 713 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:56,919 Speaker 1: size for an individual. This individual had fair or very 714 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: fair skin, and they created a composite of this individual. Now, 715 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,840 Speaker 1: how powerful is that when you're going back in time 716 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 1: as a result of this phenotyping, where it leaves behind 717 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,799 Speaker 1: this kind of fingerprint of what the individual would look like, 718 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: where you can create and forensic artists can go in 719 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: based upon this and create a template, if you will, 720 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: of an individual in what they might look like with 721 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 1: these characteristics. Now, obviously it's not going to be absolutely 722 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: dead on spot on this individual when you find them, 723 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: but it's going to put you in the ballpark. And 724 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 1: you know, for instance, that out of this group and 725 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,040 Speaker 1: You're going to look for somebody that had fair or 726 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:39,439 Speaker 1: very fair skin, that has dark hair, and is going 727 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: to be about this size at this particular age in life, 728 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 1: and that person for that moment when they that droplet 729 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: of blood was spilled, they're kind of frozen time at 730 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: that moment in time. And that's absolutely fascinating. And you 731 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 1: take phenotyping, you take phenotyping technology, and you marry that 732 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 1: up with what eventually brought this case to a resolution, 733 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,879 Speaker 1: and that's forensic genealogy. Let's recap the numbers joke, because 734 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 1: you were talking about the confidence that could be gained 735 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 1: from this phenotype report. The report said with eighty two 736 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,439 Speaker 1: percent confidence that the skin color was fair or very fair, 737 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: ninety nine percent confidence that it was not brown or 738 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:27,560 Speaker 1: dark brown skin, the eye color ninety seven percent confidence 739 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: that it was brown or hazel, ninety seven percent confidence 740 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: that it was not green, blue, or black. Hair color 741 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: ninety nine point eight percent confidence that it was black 742 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,239 Speaker 1: or brown. And what I found really fascinating was that 743 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 1: even with the phenotyping, they could determine whether somebody had 744 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:54,760 Speaker 1: freckles ninety one point seven percent confidence that this person 745 00:44:55,400 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: had no freckles. How does phenotyping determine whether or not well. 746 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: It's this unique recipe that we have that's given to 747 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:10,800 Speaker 1: us v our parents DNA, the merging of our mother's 748 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,400 Speaker 1: DNA and our father's DNA, that is going to dictate 749 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,919 Speaker 1: why our appearance moving forward, and those probabilities can be 750 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: estimated essentially based upon what was going on at the 751 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,319 Speaker 1: time of when this individual developed and early on. I 752 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,879 Speaker 1: mean that stamp is on us early on in our 753 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 1: developmental stages, even in the womb, and so that's something 754 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: that you carry with you and it's fascinating to me 755 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,879 Speaker 1: because this kind of blueprint that we have now through 756 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:46,640 Speaker 1: phenotyping is something that is changing the way we approach 757 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,320 Speaker 1: crime scenes and the way we approach unknown circumstances where 758 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,840 Speaker 1: some biological element has been left behind. It's like almost 759 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,839 Speaker 1: as if nature has given us the playbook, if you will. 760 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,319 Speaker 1: It's literally caused us to leap ahead light years as 761 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: far as this technology is concerned. You take phenotyping and 762 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: you combine that with the technology of a full on 763 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,799 Speaker 1: DNA profile, and you begin to look at familial connections 764 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 1: where you have someone that has taken say their DNA 765 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,279 Speaker 1: and submitted it into an open source database for the 766 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 1: purposes of genealogical study, where they're trying to determine who 767 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,279 Speaker 1: their ancestors were, their points of origin, and only sorts 768 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,240 Speaker 1: of things, who they're related to all of these and 769 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,480 Speaker 1: once you start to hit on those peripheral areas where 770 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: if you have an individual that might have a third 771 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: or fourth cousin out there that has submitted a sample, 772 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,239 Speaker 1: say a buckle mewcoastal swab that's gotten from inside of 773 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,239 Speaker 1: the mouth from the gum line, and they've submitted it, 774 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: or maybe they've spitten a little tube and they've sent 775 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,839 Speaker 1: this off to be examined. Suddenly you've got a whole 776 00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: new world that opens up to you, because if you've 777 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,840 Speaker 1: got an unknown which in the case of Nancy Anderson, 778 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: we have an unknown suspect here, an individual that we 779 00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 1: think was probably involved in it because we've got this 780 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: blood sample from way back then, all of a sudden 781 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,200 Speaker 1: that that was very, very fuzzy for a long long 782 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,719 Speaker 1: time suddenly comes into focus. And in this case, that 783 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,200 Speaker 1: happened all the way across the board. It's it's almost 784 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:29,400 Speaker 1: like Nancy's case intersected with science at the right time 785 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:34,759 Speaker 1: where they were able to pin an individual down regarding 786 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: their DNA makeup their genealogical profile, and boy did it 787 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 1: pay off. It did. The link here came from, as 788 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:48,399 Speaker 1: you said, genealogy, and the link was found to be 789 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,839 Speaker 1: a son. Yeah, you're right, Jackie, it was the son. 790 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,400 Speaker 1: You know. You you know, when they began to look 791 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:57,840 Speaker 1: at the DNA profile that they had, they saw that 792 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:02,520 Speaker 1: through forensic genealogy they had a third or fourth cousin 793 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: out here. They begin to do this study relative to 794 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:11,920 Speaker 1: the probability would be. And once you have that information, 795 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:16,440 Speaker 1: you can begin mathematically to narrow this thing down to 796 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 1: a very fine point where you can go back and 797 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,640 Speaker 1: look for what are referred to as common ancestors. You know, 798 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 1: if you have cousins, that means that you've got aunts 799 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,120 Speaker 1: and uncles that are connected. And then you take that 800 00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,080 Speaker 1: narrow it down even further to where you have not 801 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: just aunts and uncles, now now you have brothers and sisters. 802 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,000 Speaker 1: And when you begin to narrow it down to brothers 803 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,880 Speaker 1: and sisters, it come down to mom and daddy. And 804 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,400 Speaker 1: in this particular case, they were able to narrow this 805 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,279 Speaker 1: down so tightly that they zeroed in on this one 806 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 1: young man and the authorities actually went to his home 807 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,000 Speaker 1: and said, we'd like to get a DNA sample from you. 808 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,320 Speaker 1: And of course the rationale was is that they believed 809 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: that young man's father could potentially be the suspect they've 810 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:07,279 Speaker 1: been looking for for fifty years. That suspect ended up 811 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 1: being Tutor Cilla, a former attorney living in Reno. It 812 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: was discovered that at the time he was living in 813 00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,080 Speaker 1: Hawaii in the nineteen seventies and he was a University 814 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 1: of Hawaii grad assistant. And you begin to think about, 815 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:24,799 Speaker 1: you know, those old tomes that we go back to 816 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 1: in investigations where we think about, you know, motive and 817 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: opportunity and accessibility and you know, all of those sorts 818 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,120 Speaker 1: of things that kind of you know, play into this. 819 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,680 Speaker 1: At this point, we don't know what a motive would 820 00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:43,640 Speaker 1: have been, and the police believe that this individual was 821 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:49,440 Speaker 1: involved in Nancy's homicide. And I think in this particular case, 822 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:54,680 Speaker 1: what happened was that the perpetrator actually sliced their hand 823 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:59,560 Speaker 1: or cut a finger, and as this occurred, there's a 824 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,680 Speaker 1: na troll inclination to grab the closest thing you can, 825 00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:08,440 Speaker 1: in this case a towel and stem the bleeding and 826 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,759 Speaker 1: that's what he did. He took that towel, placed it 827 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:16,480 Speaker 1: around his hand in order to stop the bleeding, and 828 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,200 Speaker 1: when he did that, he sealed his fate. He transferred 829 00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,880 Speaker 1: that droplet of blood to that towel that was preserved 830 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,640 Speaker 1: after all those years, and ultimately that provided them with 831 00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: a DNA profile. Rilla has been charged in Nancy Anderson's murder. 832 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:38,200 Speaker 1: This case has not yet gone to trial. I'm Joseph 833 00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,360 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is body bags