Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my.
Speaker 3: Name is Noah.
Speaker 4: They call me Ben. We're joined, as always with our
Speaker 4: super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Faked. Most importantly, you
Speaker 4: argue you are here. That makes this the stuff they
Speaker 4: don't want you to know. A quick disclaimer at the top, folks,
Speaker 4: Tonight's episode contains graphic descriptions of true crimes, so listener
Speaker 4: discretion is advised. In the woods outside of Caramel, New York,
Speaker 4: a hunter discovers the bones of a twelve year old girl,
Speaker 4: launching an investigator into a mystery that could be accurately
Speaker 4: described as a real life horror film. Fortunately, folks, we
Speaker 4: are not diving into this alone. We are joined with
Speaker 4: none other than the award winning investigative journalist, longtime contributing
Speaker 4: editor at Rolling Stone, the creator of Bone Valley season five,
Speaker 4: The Devil's Quarry. We proudly present the legendary Paul solditarof.
Speaker 5: Wow Wow, I Feel like Connor McGregor.
Speaker 3: Uh, the dire straits of true crime reporting that that
Speaker 3: was a nod to a conversation we had off.
Speaker 2: Yes, watch your watch your legs there, Paul, If you're
Speaker 2: jumping in as Connor, well.
Speaker 3: Oh no, yeah, didn't he have a bit of a
Speaker 3: bad showing? Uh this last time around? I heard it
Speaker 3: was a little underwhelming.
Speaker 4: Not every day could be the birthday, I guess. Uh, Paul,
Speaker 4: let's uh speaking to jumping in. Let's dive in with
Speaker 4: this at the beginning. Could you set the scene by
Speaker 4: introducing our audience to a little bit more about your
Speaker 4: past work and what led you toward investigative journalism, Like,
Speaker 4: was there a single specific turning point you can recall
Speaker 4: in your life or did you sort of always know
Speaker 4: this is your vocation?
Speaker 5: I I bought my nose against investigative journalism after hitting
Speaker 5: my forehead on fine Britt Walls. I'm the son of
Speaker 5: one of the great literary literary editors of the second
Speaker 5: half of the twentieth century, Ted Sulataro, who edited Roth
Speaker 5: Mal discovered an entire generation extraordinary novelists and poets. And
Speaker 5: I just assumed that as the firstborn I would roll
Speaker 5: right down the assembly line and went the writers Workshop
Speaker 5: at Iowa to become a novelist. They happily disabused me
Speaker 5: of that idea very quickly. They said, yeah, you can
Speaker 5: write a sentence, okay, but Jesus Christ, is this what
Speaker 5: you're using for material? That shot me like a water
Speaker 5: canon into the playwriting program, a graduate playwriting program at
Speaker 5: the ILD School of Drama. They wasted even fewer seconds
Speaker 5: informing me that again I had the wrong address and
Speaker 5: politely referred me to the NU School of Social Work,
Speaker 5: where I spent two and a half really unprofitable years
Speaker 5: training to be a clinical psychologist. The only thing I
Speaker 5: got out of that forty five k student debt was
Speaker 5: my subject. So I got placed as a counselor in
Speaker 5: training at a community mental health center in the Seth
Speaker 5: Bronx and I arrived on the scene about an hour
Speaker 5: and a half after this horrific calamity called the happy
Speaker 5: Lands Disco fire, in which a couple of three four
Speaker 5: hundred people were packed into a basement social club and
Speaker 5: someone threw a bullets of cocktailer. Oh my gosh, an
Speaker 5: orphaned about three hundred children in East Treemont. In the
Speaker 5: Bronx and lo and behold. I suddenly was the designated
Speaker 5: healer for fifteen or twenty children who were a speechless
Speaker 5: with grief, with horror, dislocation. And at that point I
Speaker 5: realized two things. I still was the person in the
Speaker 5: room who needed the most help, but I needed to
Speaker 5: give a voice to these voice, those kids. And when
Speaker 5: the Village Voice inexplicably came calling in nineteen eighty eight
Speaker 5: they needed an associate editor, I took the job so
Speaker 5: that I could do something that I'd been yearing to
Speaker 5: do since I was a nine year old getting mugged
Speaker 5: on the subways of New York, and that was bully
Speaker 5: the bullies. So journalism, especially in long form investigative journalism,
Speaker 5: has given me a chance to get into the ring
Speaker 5: with some of the more despicable characters and some of
Speaker 5: the more despicable public policy as asters of the second
Speaker 5: twentieth century.
Speaker 3: I love the idea of journalism as bullying the bullies.
Speaker 3: I've never thought about that before, but we should need
Speaker 3: that now, maybe more than ever. And there are some
Speaker 3: folks that are stepping up and some folks that are
Speaker 3: shrinking back, and you kind of really see who's really
Speaker 3: got the goods in the face of you know, real
Speaker 3: real bullies.
Speaker 5: Yeah, bullying that looks exactly like factious. Yeah. And just
Speaker 5: to put a pin on this, the first story I
Speaker 5: ever wrote was a product of just looking out over
Speaker 5: the bridge in my notes. So every day I would
Speaker 5: take my launch. The Village Voice used to be in
Speaker 5: Greenwich Village. The Village Voice used to be the Premiere
Speaker 5: America and Alt Newsweek, and it was an extraordinary place
Speaker 5: for young talent too to develop, to grow a clip file,
Speaker 5: and then to get the hell out and go right
Speaker 5: for an outlet that actually got read and that actually
Speaker 5: paid the writer. Every day I would take my lunch
Speaker 5: on the West Side Docks. Now this is nineteen eighty eight,
Speaker 5: the very pinnacle of the crack pandemic in New York City.
Speaker 5: New York went from about three hundred murders here to
Speaker 5: twenty seven one hundred in the span of three four years.
Speaker 5: And crack was the original diseased back for Woule did
Speaker 5: destroyed New York in a way I have never seen
Speaker 5: a city gutted. We went from eleven thousand homeless population
Speaker 5: to one hundred and fifty thousand primarily single income momb
Speaker 5: and children demographic and what I saw on the west
Speaker 5: side of the docks, which were in terrible disrepair and truly
Speaker 5: a dangerous place, were ten twelve fourteen year old boys
Speaker 5: selling their bodies for crack rocks to Wall streeterers who
Speaker 5: were either on their lunch break or headed home through
Speaker 5: the holland on anyone driving down the West Side Highway,
Speaker 5: either to Brooklyn or to get to New Jersey saw
Speaker 5: what I saw on a dale. They saw these shirtless
Speaker 5: children strolling in November and December in a place with
Speaker 5: no shelter from the wind, in an incredibly brutal winter,
Speaker 5: and no one stopped. And I began to cultivate those kids.
Speaker 5: I take them to breakfast, I take them to lunch,
Speaker 5: and they told me the story that became this enormous bombshell. Again,
Speaker 5: no intention of destroying. The one institution that pretended to
Speaker 5: care about these kids, a fledgling nonprofit called Covenant Ants,
Speaker 5: in which I thought, like most downtown New York, was
Speaker 5: that those blue vans were out there saving these children.
Speaker 5: Well they were. However, the founder and director of Covenant House,
Speaker 5: father Bruce Ridder, was taking some of these children into
Speaker 5: the front door and selling them out the back door.
Speaker 5: Work for doms, and that story not only level Covenant
Speaker 5: House and nominated for Appulitzer, it also really surfaced for
Speaker 5: me exactly what my remit as a journalist was, which
Speaker 5: was to get names and faiths as to the nameless
Speaker 5: can face that's and to make sure that I told
Speaker 5: their stories with the kind of power, granularity and gut
Speaker 5: punching specificity that you couldn't look away.
Speaker 2: Wow, Paul Okay, First of all, for folks who don't
Speaker 2: know about the story and haven't read your writing, because
Speaker 2: I'm assuming there's some of us out there, including myself,
Speaker 2: who have not yet, where can we go to find
Speaker 2: that pieces on that work?
Speaker 5: So that story is called Dead Boys, it isn't easy
Speaker 5: to find. If I were more ambitious entrepreneur, I'd have
Speaker 5: my website and i'd have someone curating it. I got.
Speaker 5: But there are a couple of stories I wrote at
Speaker 5: the Village Voice that are at this point in the Cannon.
Speaker 5: That's one of them. Another called The Power and the
Speaker 5: Gory about the world's most homicidal bodybuilder, a guy who
Speaker 5: is utterly legendary, but he actually lived, I mean wound
Speaker 5: up putting a bullet in his brain. That story is
Speaker 5: included in the Best American Writing of the twentieth century.
Speaker 5: So if you just google my name, all my stuff
Speaker 5: pops on Rolling Stone. I've been at Rolling Stone now
Speaker 5: for thirty three years and have used that ordinary platform
Speaker 5: to break the NFL concussion scandal all to read Army
Speaker 5: Medical Field hospital scandal. I've been able to walk into
Speaker 5: some men off death row. I wrote a story that
Speaker 5: helped exonerate forty two thousand drug offend drug defendants in
Speaker 5: the state of Massachusetts. Aaron Bernandez story is mine. I've
Speaker 5: been given the freedom and the green light to go
Speaker 5: where my outrage takes me. And somebody's telling you guys
Speaker 5: off stage in a country that is at this point
Speaker 5: one outrage stacked upon another. I am never bored and
Speaker 5: never wanting for work.
Speaker 4: That is, unfortunately in incredibly true. Paul, and as we
Speaker 4: as we hear this culmination of your work that has
Speaker 4: taken you to dangerous places mentally and physically, one of
Speaker 4: the next questions we have to ask is that, given
Speaker 4: the tragically high amount of unsolved cases of murder and
Speaker 4: disappearances in the United States in particular and in the
Speaker 4: world abroad, what drew you to the case of Josette right.
Speaker 5: Wonderful question. So I was rolling off a series of
Speaker 5: cases that allowed me to dig deeply into the prison
Speaker 5: industrial complex. I got the wrapper meet Mill out of
Speaker 5: Prism in twenty eighteen, not because I fell in love
Speaker 5: with Meek Mill. Trust me to know Meek is to
Speaker 5: immediately fall out of love with me. For me was
Speaker 5: the most visible example victim of what again all of
Speaker 5: us know about and nobody talks about, the post incarceral
Speaker 5: system in America. Probations parole, this endless long tail that
Speaker 5: law enforcement uses to further impoverish and scapegoat people who
Speaker 5: have served their turn, who have rehabilitated themselves, but walk
Speaker 5: out of prison without their civil rights having forfeited them
Speaker 5: by virtue of being a felon, so they can apply
Speaker 5: for food stamps, can't apply for Section eight housing, can't
Speaker 5: apply for government back college loans. And Nick was fameless
Speaker 5: being portraed by a corrupt judge in Philadelphia and had
Speaker 5: been violated on and off parole for eleven years to
Speaker 5: the almost annihilation of his career for having allegedly sold
Speaker 5: to crack Rocks to an undercover at the age of
Speaker 5: eighteen and digging into his story, I saw that the entire.
Speaker 6: So called elite West Philly narcotics team was just an
Speaker 6: armed robbery crew of guns badges, and wrote the story
Speaker 6: that outed that terrific bunch of sociopaths in Bloop.
Speaker 5: Just another gang, right, just another day. I couldn't have
Speaker 5: done those stories without the guidance and the the Sage
Speaker 5: Council of the Innison Projects. So along the way I
Speaker 5: got to be close professional acquaintances with Peter Neufeld, Barry Shack,
Speaker 5: Nina Morrison, the guiding lights at the Innocence Project. And
Speaker 5: it was Nina who told me, Well, she called me
Speaker 5: one day and she said, you've written add infinitum about
Speaker 5: big city police corruption. You have any interest in digging
Speaker 5: into what small town policing looks like and how much
Speaker 5: worse it is than Chicago, Cleveland, La Chicago pet which
Speaker 5: invented police violence, Los Angeles Police Department, which perfected it.
Speaker 5: You know, I thought I'd seen the worst that law
Speaker 5: enforcement was capable of in the ramparts and crash scandals
Speaker 5: in La Wrong. Just outside of New York City, fifty
Speaker 5: miles from the Bronx. North of the Bronx stands the
Speaker 5: town of Carmel, not to be confused with the Carmel
Speaker 5: of Clint Eastwood. This is a working class, working core
Speaker 5: white flight exer of the Bronx that was essentially a
Speaker 5: ghost county until urban renewal sent a bunch of angry
Speaker 5: white hard hats and blue collars fleeing for their lives
Speaker 5: from the Bronx Queens Long Island to Midge State, New York,
Speaker 5: where you could buy a Sears Roebuck kit home for
Speaker 5: thirty five thousand dollars, PLoP it on the banks of
Speaker 5: Lake Carmel or Lake Glenida, and live like a pauper kit.
Speaker 5: Of course, unintended consequences. All those cops and firemen and
Speaker 5: sanitation workers who did that installed eight septic systems and
Speaker 5: immediately sent their gray water waste into these gorgeous man
Speaker 5: made lakes that were oh, by the way, the reservoir
Speaker 5: as system for you soon and oops. I have never
Speaker 5: in my life encountered this profession anywhere except Putnam County.
Speaker 5: They bring in a guy not every year, more often
Speaker 5: than they want to admit, to mow the lakes mo
Speaker 5: because when you introduce all that runoff nitrogen from septic
Speaker 5: systems into fresh water which you get are massive spores
Speaker 5: of E. Coli. E Coli in turn create these huge
Speaker 5: blooms of algae. If you want to see Christmas in July,
Speaker 5: go swimming in Lake Carmel. You will see weeds rising
Speaker 5: thirty feet out of the lake beds floor. That's why
Speaker 5: I could an amphibious lawn.
Speaker 2: That's it. I've never even heard of an amphibious lawnmower.
Speaker 2: Law no, neither.
Speaker 5: You know. And I'm sure the guy who who owns
Speaker 5: and runs the operates amphibious lawnmower has been deported, so
Speaker 5: we know what jeuez. Well, all right, So in twenty twenty,
Speaker 5: I get I get this call from Nina Morrison, who's
Speaker 5: now a federal judge and a great one, telling me
Speaker 5: that there are these two young men who falsely targeted, arrested, convicted,
Speaker 5: and sent to prison for life for the murder of
Speaker 5: twelve year old chist Ray. She said, Paul, if you
Speaker 5: think you've seen a parent police corruption, wait until you
Speaker 5: read these trial transcripts. Well, story short, I got up
Speaker 5: there and I spent months with this genius. One of
Speaker 5: those two kids, Anthony de Pippo, who was a ninth
Speaker 5: grade dropout, three times, and who never never made it
Speaker 5: to the tenth grade. This huge, hulking halt Hogan worshiped her,
Speaker 5: who for giggles broke fluorescent lights and folding chairs over
Speaker 5: his buddies heads in these impromptu backyard wrestling tournaments. David Stage,
Speaker 5: that guy who had caught the hostile attention of the
Speaker 5: Putnam Sheriff's office, had been grotesquely framed for the rape
Speaker 5: and murder of this beautiful twelve year old child who
Speaker 5: had gone missing in October nineteen, And it took the
Speaker 5: cops a year and a half to not only coerce
Speaker 5: Menace and brownbeat a false confession from Anthony's best friend,
Speaker 5: a confession that implicated the two of them, but also
Speaker 5: to coerce Menace and browbeat their stoner friends into falsely
Speaker 5: testifying against them ninety seven, These two young men who
Speaker 5: had the most innocuous criminal records possession of throwing a
Speaker 5: trash can at a commuter train.
Speaker 4: Doesn't Anthony say, by the way, when you speak to
Speaker 4: him in Devil's Quarry, you talk a little bit about
Speaker 4: drug charges, and he says, yeah, you could call me
Speaker 4: a drug dealer, but not a successful one.
Speaker 5: Exactly right, Anthony may be the only drug dealer in
Speaker 5: the history of the continental United States to lose money
Speaker 5: selling drugs, which will happen when you're consuming more of
Speaker 5: your product than yourself. These two guys were part of
Speaker 5: this kind of rag tag contingent of Wlatchkey kids. Kids
Speaker 5: in the story, I called them sideways kids. These are
Speaker 5: the kids at the back of the classroom whose feet
Speaker 5: are constantly drumming under the table, who was staring off
Speaker 5: in the space. These are kids who, if they'd grown
Speaker 5: up ten miles south in Westchester, would have been flagged
Speaker 5: for add or some you know or dyslexia and been
Speaker 5: diagnosed and treated and going on to become dentists and
Speaker 5: bond traders. But they grew up in a community in
Speaker 5: which children, specially female children, were prey. And my initial
Speaker 5: working title for the story that became The Devil you
Speaker 5: Know was rape value. It was hard meeting a girl
Speaker 5: now in her thirties forties who grew up in the
Speaker 5: town and not been sexually violated by an authority figure
Speaker 5: Jesus Christ, stepdad, principal teacher, the cops themselves. Over and
Speaker 5: over I heard from these girls that in a town
Speaker 5: with nowhere to go and nothing to do. They go
Speaker 5: off to the woods with a forty and a joint,
Speaker 5: and while away a Friday night, the cops always knew
Speaker 5: where they were. They roll up, the boys would get cuffed,
Speaker 5: the girls would get tossed into the back of the
Speaker 5: cruiser and have to blow the cop to get out
Speaker 5: of the cruise. And this community of predatory cops, literally
Speaker 5: leg breaking cops who's only job, as far as I
Speaker 5: could tell, and I investigated them thoroughly, was illegally coercing
Speaker 5: campaign money for the reelection of this crooked sheriff who'd
Speaker 5: been in power for twenty odd years. Those cops discovered
Speaker 5: the remains of Joseph Right in a shallow grave thirteen
Speaker 5: months after she went missing. By the way, those two
Speaker 5: cops never bothered to investigate her disappearance in October of
Speaker 5: ninety four, outside of talking to her teachers, her family,
Speaker 5: throwing up a couple of missing fliers. Never did any legwork.
Speaker 5: When she turns up day in ninety five with her
Speaker 5: hands bound behind her, her panties stuffed down, her throat,
Speaker 5: her skeletal throat, and her broad tied around a mandible
Speaker 5: of her skull, those cops immediately thought, oh shit, maybe
Speaker 5: we should have spent an hour here and there looking
Speaker 5: into her, and immediately began to round up the kids
Speaker 5: that they designated the usual suspects. Not only did they
Speaker 5: sell this family, not only they sell this community an
Speaker 5: enormous toxic pack of law, a pack of lies that
Speaker 5: that family still clings to that family even after the
Speaker 5: exoneration of these two young men. I will go into
Speaker 5: that in a second, because it's a miracle that should
Speaker 5: never have happened. But Anthony to Pippo, that ninth grade dropout,
Speaker 5: did something so extraordinary that I just want to write
Speaker 5: his Nobel speech. It is, in all my years of
Speaker 5: writing about the wrongly convicted, of helping to exonerate the
Speaker 5: wrongly convicted, I have never seen anything more extraordinary heroic
Speaker 5: than what Anthony to Pippo did in the prison library
Speaker 5: at Africa. It is I'll shorthand it by saying this
Speaker 5: Anthony was finally exonerated by the best lawyer in America,
Speaker 5: Mark Agnifilo. Mark Agnifilo is this extraordinary showman who, as
Speaker 5: he says in the podcast, markets himself exclusively to people
Speaker 5: who were some of those people. Harbie Weinstein, p Diddy.
Speaker 5: He got Diddy off of thirty six or forty glaringly
Speaker 5: flagrant sex drafting offenses. He's now representing Luigi Manngioni in
Speaker 5: the trial of the Century that starts this fall. That's
Speaker 5: who Mark Agnifilo is, and what Mark Agnifilo told me
Speaker 5: was when he first met Anthony in the spring of
Speaker 5: twenty sixteen, three months before that trial, his jaw dropped
Speaker 5: open to listen, to sit across from this enormous man
Speaker 5: with an intimidating goateee Anthony six five and a half
Speaker 5: six six three, twenty benches an entire block, and Anthony,
Speaker 5: as Mark agniffelow realized, was the best lawyer in the room.
Speaker 5: And Mark Agnifflo said to himself and then said to me,
Speaker 5: I realized I was going to win this trial after
Speaker 5: my first five minutes with Anthony, because I had a
Speaker 5: secret weapon that the prosecution didn't. I had the actual
Speaker 5: best lawyer in America teach me how to try this case.
Speaker 5: And when he tried that case in the fall of
Speaker 5: twenty sixteen, it wasn't a contest. It was a slaughter.
Speaker 2: But we'll get to one thing I want to focus
Speaker 2: on really quickly. Here is why those particular law enforcement
Speaker 2: officers looked at these guys and those why were those
Speaker 2: guys the go to potential bad guys in town that
Speaker 2: may have done this kind of thing, And specifically about
Speaker 2: a gentleman named Pat Costolato. I think, is how you
Speaker 2: say his name?
Speaker 5: Yes? Castaldo? Yeah? Oh? Was he?
Speaker 2: And why is he like targeting these guys?
Speaker 5: So Pat Costaldo, as near as I could tell, was
Speaker 5: the chief's leg breaker for this crooked sheriff, a goon
Speaker 5: who was notorious for using his hands and his feet
Speaker 5: to enfluce the wall in Putnam County. Big Bruiser looked
Speaker 5: like something out of a trashy drug store detective novel
Speaker 5: from the forties, slicked his hair back in a high
Speaker 5: type pompadour, wore a mowhair top coat in the summer.
Speaker 5: Clearly thought he was Popeye Doyle, although it was here
Speaker 5: was like he can't even drive. Pa Costaldo seems to
Speaker 5: have about three working neurons, and when he discovered when
Speaker 5: his department stumbled upon the bones of Joseph, they were
Speaker 5: under enormous pressure. Already a second beautiful child girl had
Speaker 5: gone missing in Carmel six months prior, and so now
Speaker 5: you had in a town of no violent crime, in
Speaker 5: a town where the law enforcement largely consists of these
Speaker 5: cops responding to bars and domestic spans, you have these
Speaker 5: cops who have never, in their wives worked a murder,
Speaker 5: and as near as I could tell, were never trained
Speaker 5: to be cops in the first place.
Speaker 4: And they're pretty clear about their inexperience. When you speak
Speaker 4: with some of these folks or dive into them in
Speaker 4: Devil's Quarry, we've got to ask poll and pardon me
Speaker 4: if this is a bit of a softball, but I
Speaker 4: think our audience needs to hear it. How did this
Speaker 4: lack of experience, plus they're already loose and fast nature
Speaker 4: as law enforcement operatives, how did this inform what they
Speaker 4: saw as their strategy? Because it sounds when I'm hearing
Speaker 4: this through right and I'm reading your previous work, every
Speaker 4: point of their investigation seems to focus less and less
Speaker 4: on finding the actual murderer and more and more on
Speaker 4: closing out the case.
Speaker 5: Exactly right, So let's step the stage for your listeners.
Speaker 5: Josett Rights discovered November twenty ninety five in that shallow grave,
Speaker 5: what those cops found was evidence of a serial killer.
Speaker 5: At large, so she had been bound and gagged in
Speaker 5: ritualistic and fetishistic style, meaning this was not the doer's
Speaker 5: first rodeo. The staging and the concealment of the corpse
Speaker 5: was planful, was meticulous, and were it not for the
Speaker 5: fact that she was buried in a forest, forest with deer,
Speaker 5: with coyotes, with other large rodents, that grave would have
Speaker 5: held her remains for time immemorial. But one of those
Speaker 5: browsing animals had dug and to part part of her
Speaker 5: skull and made off with it, and that skull was
Speaker 5: discovered underfoot by two hunters on the first day of
Speaker 5: hunting season, So it wasn't this though the cops were
Speaker 5: looking for her. Course, cops had no interest in finding Joseph.
Speaker 5: They had written her off as a runaway a year aware.
Speaker 5: Back to why they chose these guns. So, as I say,
Speaker 5: there was enormous community pressure in a town, in a
Speaker 5: county with no serious violence. And it's one of the
Speaker 5: virtues of living in mystics, particularly the community that is
Speaker 5: inhabited by New York cops by New York unfortunately not
Speaker 5: enforced by New York cops. So who becomes a cop
Speaker 5: in Putnam County. Who becomes a cop in the town
Speaker 5: of Cornwall, It's two different streams of applicants. It's locals
Speaker 5: who had the childhoods, got picked on, bullied, and aspired
Speaker 5: to become cops to avenge themselves on the snop those
Speaker 5: kids that rough them up at fourteen. The other tributary
Speaker 5: to that talent pool is the kickouts from mid city
Speaker 5: police forces, cops so bad that even mid city forces
Speaker 5: could no longer afford to keep paying for settlements and
Speaker 5: judgments against those cops for abusing their fellow citizens. On
Speaker 5: top of that, as we discovered in Anthony's civil rights
Speaker 5: trial against those cops after he won his conviction and
Speaker 5: forced those cops to tell the truth in deposition, was
Speaker 5: that where big city comps are sent to an academy
Speaker 5: for six months, where that they're constantly trained and retrained,
Speaker 5: particularly if they want to make rack. If you want
Speaker 5: to become a sergeant, you've got to go for extra training.
Speaker 5: You want to become a detective, There's a lot of
Speaker 5: work to do to rise the ranks in the NYPD.
Speaker 5: There is no such pecking order. It's just next man
Speaker 5: up in these small towns. Love story short These guys
Speaker 5: not only had no homicide experience, they had no criminal detection.
Speaker 5: If they didn't know what the Fifth Amendment was, they
Speaker 5: didn't know what Brady Law was, they didn't know what
Speaker 5: impeachment stuff they teach in the first week at the
Speaker 5: police academy. These guys have never heard of and admitted
Speaker 5: under us. So when you've got a howling community and
Speaker 5: you live amongst those folks and they want someone to
Speaker 5: rad did Friday? You go and arrest someone Friday. And
Speaker 5: here were these two kids who had been selling PCP,
Speaker 5: taking PCP, who've been bringing ecstasy in from New York City,
Speaker 5: who were standing outside the high school selling weed. Who
Speaker 5: better to go to rest? And who better to to
Speaker 5: pick out a hat? Knowing these kids don't have a lawyer,
Speaker 5: these kids dropped out of high school. We can work
Speaker 5: these kids to our end. And that's what those comps did.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I can't even begin to a picture
Speaker 3: where this conversation is going to continue to go. But
Speaker 3: we are going to go there. But first let's take
Speaker 3: a quick break here where from our sponsor. Then we
Speaker 3: be back with more from Paul. And we're back. Let's
Speaker 3: jump right back in with Paul.
Speaker 2: I guess the big question for me is when when
Speaker 2: that type of scenario, let's say, is happening, how on
Speaker 2: earth as that police officer, that law enforcement officer who
Speaker 2: is choosing to potentially do this to someone, how do
Speaker 2: you how can you feel confident that it's going to
Speaker 2: work with it? Because they have to face a judge
Speaker 2: at some point, they have to potentially a jury, all
Speaker 2: these other things like, there's process to go through. How
Speaker 2: do you get the story to come out in the
Speaker 2: favor of the thing you want it to be?
Speaker 5: With two fists. We have transcripts, we have recanting witnesses,
Speaker 5: we have the story stories of all these kids that
Speaker 5: they brutalized, of all these kids they stalked and terrorized.
Speaker 5: A key witness, although he didn't testify a trial for
Speaker 5: complicated reasons, but the one who first spun this fault
Speaker 5: story was a severe special needs kid who was kind
Speaker 5: of on the outside of the circle of these druggy
Speaker 5: kids I named dom Neglia, a kid who'd been raised
Speaker 5: in special ed and who was incredibly easy to manipulate
Speaker 5: and terrorize. He's the one that the cops went hardest at,
Speaker 5: not as the doer, but as the kid most likely
Speaker 5: to flip on his friends, and that is in fact
Speaker 5: what happened. But let me just step take two steps
Speaker 5: to the right here, because the day that Joseph was discovered,
Speaker 5: the day that those hallmark signs of a practice serial
Speaker 5: predator being at large and being responsible for the murder
Speaker 5: of this child, the cops had that guy in their sights.
Speaker 5: That man, the town pedophile, the town terrorist of girls
Speaker 5: and women, was extremely well known so the Putnam Sheriff's detectives,
Speaker 5: extremely well known to the Carmel pad, extremely well known
Speaker 5: to the Ken PD. This was a guy who had
Speaker 5: run sexual ramppage through Putnham County and who, by the
Speaker 5: time Josette disappears, had been charged with rake three times
Speaker 5: by three different women, children children one is one eleven
Speaker 5: and one age twelve, and the cops who had arrested
Speaker 5: Gombert multiple times for burglary. He was a lifelong klectomaniac.
Speaker 5: This is Howard Gumbert. Howard Gumbert, who this pathological drifter
Speaker 5: whose m O by the way, he was handsome, he
Speaker 5: was charismatic, drove a motorcycle looked like something out of
Speaker 5: Happy Days. This guy had a sixth sense for vulnerable
Speaker 5: single bonds. He had this extraordinarily extraordinary radar for women
Speaker 5: who were lonely, who were susceptible to long form abuse
Speaker 5: and hism was to move in with them within days
Speaker 5: or weeks of them and then go to work not
Speaker 5: only sexually violating those women, but their children. And again,
Speaker 5: everyone in law enforcement in Putnam County, so seventy small towns,
Speaker 5: each with its own police force, and then this free
Speaker 5: range Sheriff's office knew and had dealings with Howard Gomber.
Speaker 5: And yet of the dozens of people they dragged in
Speaker 5: for questioning, they never even doorstepped Howard Gombret, by which
Speaker 5: I mean they never even swung by his flop house
Speaker 5: apartment and knocked on his door to ask him, where
Speaker 5: were you on the night of October third, nineteen ninety
Speaker 5: October fourth, nineteen ninety four. Never. It is unfathomable. And
Speaker 5: I spent nine months writing that story, and then a
Speaker 5: year making Season one of The Devil's Quarry, answering the
Speaker 5: question of why those cops gave Howard Gombert a hunting
Speaker 5: license to go on praying on the children of Putnam County.
Speaker 5: I have an answer, but I can't tell I understood, yeah, and.
Speaker 2: We I mean, is it because of legal implications or
Speaker 2: why can't you say.
Speaker 5: There is a great deal happening behind the scenes right now?
Speaker 5: So let's step back, okay. And I'm sorry because we
Speaker 5: keep getting we keep wanting to get to the foreground
Speaker 5: of the story, and I keep taking you back when Yeah,
Speaker 5: when I wrote the story in twenty twenty one, I
Speaker 5: had the first and last nervous breakdown in my career.
Speaker 5: For nine months, I had been warehousing the stories of
Speaker 5: these six women who had been children. These were the
Speaker 5: survivors of Howard Gomber. These were the women who threw,
Speaker 5: who threw pluck or luck, hadn't been killed by him,
Speaker 5: who had been raped and beaten and bound and gagged
Speaker 5: when they were children, not all of them, but a
Speaker 5: number of them as children. And there was something about
Speaker 5: that kind of suffering that did to me what all
Speaker 5: my years in the ghettos of North Philly, South l A,
Speaker 5: South Side Chicago didn't. They took up residence in my soul,
Speaker 5: and I couldn't break free. And I swore to myself
Speaker 5: when I got better, I'm never going near this story again.
Speaker 5: It is poison. However, a year ago, little more than
Speaker 5: an year ago, I got a call from two of
Speaker 5: those victims and both of them were sobbing. Both of
Speaker 5: them said, oh my god, he's getting out. The state
Speaker 5: of Connecticut is releasing this monster at the end of
Speaker 5: twenty twenty six. Where will I live? He's been writing
Speaker 5: me from prison. He must have a private detective. He
Speaker 5: has tracked me down. He is sending me.
Speaker 7: Horrifying letters because stalking is part of his mo right, talking,
Speaker 7: command control. All of the hallmarks of a lethal socioparts
Speaker 7: are front and centered with this man. Howard Gombert finally
Speaker 7: either was polatantly aster lee put County by those cops
Speaker 7: or figured that jig was up. He moved fourteen miles
Speaker 7: east to the border of Connecticut, just over the state line,
Speaker 7: and instantly began looking for his next cast of victims.
Speaker 7: And he found them very quickly, but he was fourteen
Speaker 7: miles away. Those cops never so much as paid a
Speaker 7: courtesy call on here. Long story short, he committed an
Speaker 7: unspeakable crime against the seven year old girl in New Milford,
Speaker 7: Connecticut in nineteen ninety nine. She told someone, and because
Speaker 7: this was Connecticut, the cops actually listened to a victim
Speaker 7: and arrested him immediately, not just arrested him, made it
Speaker 7: criminal case, sent him into prison for thirty years, But
Speaker 7: in Connecticut, thirty years actually turns out to be twenty five.
Speaker 7: And so this December, unless something happens, Howard John Gombert
Speaker 7: Junior will walk out of Cheshire Correctional not only a freeman,
Speaker 7: but a man with no tail on him, no parole,
Speaker 7: no probation, no custodial supervision. That man who has spent
Speaker 7: most of his life at liberty camping in woods. This
Speaker 7: is a survivalist.
Speaker 5: This is a man who grew up in a tent
Speaker 5: a half mile behind his father's house in the woods,
Speaker 5: surviving on what he caught or stole to eat in
Speaker 5: the dead of a Northeast winter. This guy is walking
Speaker 5: out of prison freeman.
Speaker 3: Unless and that's a man that could disappear himself quite easily.
Speaker 5: Yes, he will go vanish mode the second he sets
Speaker 5: foot outside those prison gates, and he knows every inch
Speaker 5: of those words in Putnam County and the border of Connecticut.
Speaker 4: We're going to pause here for word from our sponsors,
Speaker 4: and we'll return with more on the Devil's Quarry, and
Speaker 4: we're back. I do want to ask one question here
Speaker 4: before we lose it. Paul, I was going to ask
Speaker 4: this earlier because a lot of our audience may not
Speaker 4: be fully aware of this. As we as we shift
Speaker 4: back right to Anthony's case and Andrew's case, they are
Speaker 4: primarily going to trial based on these coerced witness statements
Speaker 4: as you describe in detailing your investigation, and this trial
Speaker 4: doesn't have any physical evidence, as you as you teach
Speaker 4: us here. But I have to ask, what is the
Speaker 4: legality of dropping charges against someone in exchange for a
Speaker 4: signed statement relating to other crimes?
Speaker 7: Like?
Speaker 4: Is that legal?
Speaker 5: It's legal? Ish, Okay, And let's be clear the one
Speaker 5: witness who sent Anthony and Andy to prison because those
Speaker 5: friends of theirs who got to understand were either too
Speaker 5: high too narctized to actually tell a convincing version of
Speaker 5: the cops side of this right, and the jury Leslie
Speaker 5: laughed at him. Anthony and Andy were convicted with that
Speaker 5: a shred of physical evidence, without any provable connection to
Speaker 5: the murdered girl, whom they had met once maybe twice
Speaker 5: in passing. By the way, if you're looking into a
Speaker 5: conviction with zero physical evidence, you can be very confident
Speaker 5: that's a bogus conviction. It's really hard to murder somebody
Speaker 5: and dispose of all the forensics. It is vanishingly difficult
Speaker 5: to do. It only happens on dexter, right, it's in
Speaker 5: real life. Murder is ugly, it's squalid, and it's impossible
Speaker 5: to completely eradicate. Right. So on the strength of this
Speaker 5: horrific persure, a young woman with severe behavioral, psychological, and
Speaker 5: chemical issues, Denise Rose, on the strength of her testimony
Speaker 5: e in the first time she told it was transparently false.
Speaker 5: On the strength of her testimony and her testimony alone,
Speaker 5: two young men were sent to max prison with the
Speaker 5: worst what they call jacket you can wear behind bars,
Speaker 5: convicted pedophile, rapist, murderer of a child. The fact that
Speaker 5: Anthony and Andy lived long enough at Auburn at Dana
Speaker 5: Mora at Attica, the worst prisons in America. The fact
Speaker 5: that they survive long enough to fight for their freedom
Speaker 5: is a miracle. Why did Denise Rose testify against her
Speaker 5: former boyfriend Anthony Because she was in desperate trouble with
Speaker 5: those cops. She had a huge rage problem. She had
Speaker 5: battle rounded the car of a girl. She barely knew
Speaker 5: she was facing a felmine account for that, she was
Speaker 5: facing duise. She was about to go away for a
Speaker 5: serious time. And for someone who was multiply addicted, the
Speaker 5: idea of being in prison for seven years with at
Speaker 5: your dope and your works was unimaginable to this child.
Speaker 5: And that's what she was when she was bullied into
Speaker 5: testifying against them. But again, she wasn't the only one.
Speaker 5: These other kids who had been beaten into falsely testifying
Speaker 5: also had minor drug charges pending against them. And you know,
Speaker 5: you're talking about kids, and I see this over and
Speaker 5: over in wrongful convictions. The folks who have been coerced
Speaker 5: into lying are themselves as vulnerable as the kids who
Speaker 5: get who got framed. Just by luck of the draw.
Speaker 5: They're not the ones under the gun, but they could
Speaker 5: easily be if they don't tell those cops what they
Speaker 5: want to hear. Sir, back to your question, which.
Speaker 4: Was, oh, it's the is it is it legal for
Speaker 4: that quid pro quo to exist?
Speaker 5: Right? Well, this is something that has been haranged over
Speaker 5: in drug trial and murder trial after drug trial and
Speaker 5: murder trus It's really hard to make these cases without
Speaker 5: a cooperating witness. Very often that cooperating with witness is
Speaker 5: tainted by his or her own criminal involvement. And so
Speaker 5: in case after case after case, you see these kinds
Speaker 5: of deals being struck. You know, a good defense lawyer
Speaker 5: will make of that. But are there are there examples
Speaker 5: I know of where the cops not only cause charges
Speaker 5: to be set aside, but white and blackmail judges when
Speaker 5: and co werce prosecutors. Absolutely, in this case, I can't
Speaker 5: speak to that. But what I can tell you is
Speaker 5: the devil in the Devil unit, the devil in the
Speaker 5: Devil's quarry isn't just Howard Gomberg. It isn't just the
Speaker 5: demon in the woods. It is also the crooked cops
Speaker 5: of the Putnam County Chapf's Department who are as dangerous
Speaker 5: to public safety as this man who had a nearly
Speaker 5: twenty year run of sexual violence against children. And again,
Speaker 5: these kinds of things are really hard to bring off
Speaker 5: in a big city. For that is, in big cities
Speaker 5: we have oversights. You know, we have a civilian review board,
Speaker 5: we have good, strong legal aiden lawyers in Putnam County. Again,
Speaker 5: there's nobody watching the watchers. There's nobody investigating the crooked sheriff,
Speaker 5: which was how he was able to hold office for decades.
Speaker 5: He was followed in by a no less morally objectionable sheriff.
Speaker 5: It's just part and parcel of what happens in seventy
Speaker 5: four percent of America, seventy four percent of America, as
Speaker 5: as it's not only senior lawmen, but judge, jury and hangman.
Speaker 5: A sheriff. Seventy four percent of America is lorded over
Speaker 5: by one man, a sheriff who has extra judicial power
Speaker 5: and answers to no one except the voters. That was
Speaker 5: the case in staunchly Republican Putnam Catholic, where they kept
Speaker 5: electing the same crooks over and over record.
Speaker 2: Okay, so we said this person, Howard Combert, which we
Speaker 2: are fairly certain or definitely certain, is responsible for many horrifying,
Speaker 2: unspeakable things that you've been writing about. He gets out
Speaker 2: at the end of this year, potentially. I'm looking for
Speaker 2: an image of him online and I can only find
Speaker 2: the one that's that's featured in Rolling Stone in your
Speaker 2: article from June ninth, twenty twenty six, which is it's
Speaker 2: him as a young man. So now he's getting out
Speaker 2: of prison, and no one is going to wreckogies this
Speaker 2: human being.
Speaker 4: And no parole is insane.
Speaker 5: It's madness. So I spoke earlier about dealings behind the scene.
Speaker 5: We are in aggressive and high level talks with the
Speaker 5: top law enforcement community of New York State, the state
Speaker 5: of Connecticut, and it's a little soon to comment on
Speaker 5: those discussions, but we are doing everything our power to
Speaker 5: see to it that the communities of Putnam County New
Speaker 5: Fairfield County are protected from this man for the fourth
Speaker 5: Seal future.
Speaker 2: One last question, do you we're talking about how it's
Speaker 2: harder to pull off this kind of thing in a
Speaker 2: bigger city, with the style of corruption that we're seeing
Speaker 2: on display or within the Devil's Quarry, Do listen to it.
Speaker 2: If you have a chance. You find it everywhere. All
Speaker 2: three of us have looked pretty hard at the Atlanta
Speaker 2: Missing and Murdered Children case. And I'm thinking now about
Speaker 2: your writing and work on dead boys fas sects and
Speaker 2: slow suicide on the West Side Docks, and I'm wondering
Speaker 2: if you see any connection in big cities with that
Speaker 2: same kind of thing, where there are wealthy, powerful human
Speaker 2: beings that are taking advantage of especially children, for their
Speaker 2: own proclivities. Do you see connections there?
Speaker 5: Absolutely, and it happens over and over again. So there
Speaker 5: there's this long history of the wealthy and the powerful
Speaker 5: using these challenge communities as their ATMs and their snack bars,
Speaker 5: by which you're as as they're kind of canned hunting preserves.
Speaker 5: And you know, it isn't just big cities. I saw
Speaker 5: exactly this happened at close range in Putnam County. Again
Speaker 5: speaking to all of these girls who've grown up there
Speaker 5: and who had as a right of passage at thirteen
Speaker 5: fourteen fifteen been violated by a sheriff's deputy, by a
Speaker 5: guidance counselor by you know, by a living boyfriend. There's
Speaker 5: there's very little to keep the powerful and the predatory
Speaker 5: away from the most vulnerable population. It's country, namely chure,
Speaker 5: and wherever I go there it is. I just wrote
Speaker 5: a story that won the National of the Los Angeles
Speaker 5: Press Club Award about this extraordinary gang um unit in
Speaker 5: the LAPD Revolutionary best bunch of cops I've ever met,
Speaker 5: but even they were helpless against an American nightmare called
Speaker 5: Figaroa Avenue. Figaroa in Los Angeles is a two and
Speaker 5: a half mile run on strip of thirteen and fourteen
Speaker 5: year old girls selling their bodies for twenty dollars. It
Speaker 5: happens three sixty five, It happens rain, sleet, snow, It
Speaker 5: is all day, every day you drive down FIGAROA part
Speaker 5: of its control by the uber criminals, part of it's
Speaker 5: controlled by the grape street crips, part of it by
Speaker 5: the bloods, and you realize, here are the limits of
Speaker 5: law enforcement. They literally can't do anything about these ten
Speaker 5: twelve thousand children either kickouts from the foster character system,
Speaker 5: runaways from abusive homes, selling their bodies in broad daylight,
Speaker 5: and twelve thousand kids mostly black and brown, mostly from
Speaker 5: ten miles away. You know, they grew up in Nickerson
Speaker 5: Garden projects, they grew up, you know, in Ramona Heights,
Speaker 5: and you know, in some cases these fourteen girl girls
Speaker 5: are are filling the frigids of their destitute families are
Speaker 5: And again, it's really hard to arrest your way out
Speaker 5: of a slow motion nightmare like.
Speaker 4: That, especially with no system support systems in place.
Speaker 5: Right exactly right, the very system that was supposed to
Speaker 5: protect those children is effectively leading them to slaughter or
Speaker 5: foster care system of Southern California. And you know, what
Speaker 5: you realize is that we will always out of these
Speaker 5: horrific scenarios in which the powerful exercise their urges and
Speaker 5: demons at the expense of the poor and the vulnerable.
Speaker 5: What you hope for we as Americans like to believe
Speaker 5: is true is that there is this dedicated community of
Speaker 5: people whose tasks and whose mission in life it is
Speaker 5: to protect those people. And I've written about great cops,
Speaker 5: heroic cops. Cops need statues of them there in every city.
Speaker 5: But it's really hard to be a great cop and
Speaker 5: be the finger in the dyke of a society in
Speaker 5: which there is this much disparity of wealth and power
Speaker 5: and this large subpopulation of needy and desperate folk. And
Speaker 5: what I found just to get us back to Putam County.
Speaker 5: So where do we stand now? There are two cases,
Speaker 5: both of those missing girls, Josette Right, who's bones were discovered,
Speaker 5: Robin Murphy's she disappeared six months after Josette. Her body
Speaker 5: was never found, her family has never been to a trial,
Speaker 5: Her family had has never been notified of a suspect.
Speaker 5: In both cases, the law enforcement of Putnam County horribly
Speaker 5: failed not only those girls but the entire community, and
Speaker 5: we made Devil's Quarry to shame them, to expose them
Speaker 5: esceptually to blackmailment to doing their jobs. Here's what happened.
Speaker 5: Two weeks before our series dropped season one, Devil's Quarry dropped,
Speaker 5: the Putnam Shriff's Office announced it was reopening these two
Speaker 5: long dead cold cases and in fact appointing a county
Speaker 5: wide task force to delve into them from the very beginning.
Speaker 5: That's encouraging, But again, I know way too much about
Speaker 5: the law enforcement community in Putham County, way too much
Speaker 5: about how they're trained or not, about either supervised or not,
Speaker 5: and I had very very little confidence in that task
Speaker 5: for us to actually solve the star at Quirks.
Speaker 4: But Paul, we must thank you not blowing spoke here.
Speaker 4: We must thank you for fighting the good fight. Your
Speaker 4: passion is contagious and you have put yourself honestly in
Speaker 4: harm's way on various levels for pursuing justice.
Speaker 5: Here.
Speaker 4: What do we hope the audience can take away from
Speaker 4: the Devil's Quarry? But if we're speaking directly to people
Speaker 4: as they're experiencing this investigation, what should change for them?
Speaker 4: At the end of the show.
Speaker 5: One of the things that I realized afresh in reporting
Speaker 5: the story is that justice isn't a ballistic Redston state deal.
Speaker 5: It's an all of us agreement. All of us bear
Speaker 5: responsibility for Joset right for Robin Murphy. By that. We
Speaker 5: all have cell phones, we all have social media. We
Speaker 5: have been urging our listeners and by the way, we
Speaker 5: have an enormous hit on our hands with this series.
Speaker 5: If you're new to this show, give it five minutes.
Speaker 5: You will lose the next eight hours of your life.
Speaker 5: It is impossible to stop listening once you start. We
Speaker 5: are urging, begging our listeners to vote with their voices,
Speaker 5: to call, to write the Attorney General's Office of New
Speaker 5: York State. Letitia James, the Attorney General of New York State,
Speaker 5: has the power to indefinitely remand Howard Gombert to civil
Speaker 5: commitment under the Sexual Violent Predator's Law. Please, if you
Speaker 5: are someone who is passionate about protecting girls, about protecting
Speaker 5: an entire county community, please listen and then add your
Speaker 5: voice to antis, because it will be the collective that
Speaker 5: finally gets justice for those two families, and that finally
Speaker 5: allows the parents and children of Putnam County in New
Speaker 5: York and Fairfield County in Connecticut to sleep perfectly.
Speaker 4: Put and again, Paul SOLITARIOFF, thank you so much for
Speaker 4: being so generous with your time. Everybody tuning in here
Speaker 4: on Netflix or your podcast platform of choice, you can
Speaker 4: find The Devil's Quarry now available wherever you listen to
Speaker 4: your favorite shows.
Speaker 5: Jim, thank you so very much.
Speaker 4: You're brought Eric, And there we have it, fellow conspiracy realist.
Speaker 4: This is a hero story. We're talking off air. Paul
Speaker 4: is in addition to being a phenomenal reporter, he is
Speaker 4: a man of principle who sacrificed a lot.
Speaker 5: Here.
Speaker 4: We have to have him back on the show.
Speaker 3: Guys, dude, some of the conversations we just had off
Speaker 3: my author good Lord, more to come. Let's just put
Speaker 3: it that way. And the man has some stories. I
Speaker 3: know I hung back a little bit on that one
Speaker 3: because I was just enraptured by the stories this guy
Speaker 3: was telling him. But I look forward to, you know,
Speaker 3: hanging out with him again down the line.
Speaker 2: Well, let's just we're not gonna say it fully, Paul,
Speaker 2: but we did just talk about the current president of
Speaker 2: the United States in time that you spent with him,
Speaker 2: and that kind of thing, while we may not say
Speaker 2: it on a podcast like this, is that kind of
Speaker 2: stuff is worth hearing for human beings.
Speaker 3: Insight into the character of an individual where it's really
Speaker 3: easy to make some guesses as to how this guy
Speaker 3: conducts himself behind closed doors. So to hear firsthand that
Speaker 3: not only where we write it's grosser and worse than
Speaker 3: we could have imagined, it doesn't form some of the
Speaker 3: things that it's easy to imagine, wonder about this man
Speaker 3: and be like, Okay, now I'm gonna stop being gas
Speaker 3: lit and just kind of believe that it's probably worse
Speaker 3: than we imagine.
Speaker 4: And please check out Paul's earlier work on Covenant House
Speaker 4: on the investigations that he mentioned in the course of
Speaker 4: our conversation tonight. We would love to hear your thoughts, folks,
Speaker 4: because we've also received leads from you, our fellow conspiracy realist,
Speaker 4: regarding stories of small town cover ups and corruption. They
Speaker 4: happen everywhere. As Paul was saying, so hit us up.
Speaker 4: Thank you for tuning in. You can find us on
Speaker 4: the lines, you can call us on a phone. You
Speaker 4: can always send us an email.
Speaker 3: Yes, If you want to find us online, you can
Speaker 3: reach out to the handles Conspiracy Stuff or Conspiracy Stuff Show,
Speaker 3: depending on which social media platform is your favorite.
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