WEBVTT - Machines, Morality and Sexbots 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.680 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:13.760 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.280 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Tagli. Julie 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:24.800 name an evil robot? Okay, you're just laughing. I'm sorry. 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:26.280 I don't know the first one that comes to mind. 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.320 I don't have you see the brain today? Then I'm 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:32.000 wearing the brain that you're wearing. Yeah, if you see 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:34.920 the model, Yeah, it's a weird hat for sure. But no, 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:39.400 like evil robots and saying film in film, Okay, well, 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:41.200 I guess you could say the terminator, but he wasn't 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.319 really a robot. Well, I mean, yeah, underneath the fake 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:48.120 skin he was, you could say Arnol Schwartzenegger. There, Okay, well, 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:50.040 I'll let's roll with the terminator thing. All right, so 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:53.640 he's he's in the well, no, because he's probably not 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.760 a robot. But but yeah, the Terminator. There's a classic 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:59.840 example evil robot, right though even in this case, it's 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.960 the terminators just programmed to perform function. And in the 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.399 first movie that function is quote unquote evil, And in 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.840 the second film he's programmed to do something good. Yes, 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.320 And so I think that's the interesting thing that we've 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:17.000 been talking about when we've been talking to Dr Ronald 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.880 Arkin at Georgia Tech, and he of course is the 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:26.000 man he and his UM research assistance who are responsible 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:30.160 for what they're calling in the media the Decepticon, which 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.600 sounds really you know, brooding and scary, but it's basically 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.600 robots that have had deception programmed in them so they 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:38.920 can deceive other robots and they can deceive other people. 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:43.520 But turns out that they're actually working on different emotions 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.960 with robots just so that like for instance, like the 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:50.440 the Terminator, that they might be able to learn empathy 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:56.800 or something like guilt that would help them operate out 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.920 on the battlefield. So there's probably a joke there about 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.279 UM some sort of like faith based robotics program like well, 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:04.920 you know, because on a certain service of it, why 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.240 would you want to make a robot feel guilty. It's 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:09.720 like these these bots have it too good, and you know, 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:12.520 install some guilt in them, make them feel bad for 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:16.119 a change, because we have found out that guilt actually 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:20.480 helps us to behave in a way that's more altruistic. Right, Okay, 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:23.280 so we're gonna actually listen to Dr or can talk 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.400 about this a little bit. Well, let's let's talk about emotions, 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:28.959 and we do. I've worked in emotions for decades, actually 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.480 in robot emotions. I worked on Sony and EBow the 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.639 small robot dog Curio, their humanoid. We just finished a 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.760 project with Samsung UH and Billie Mushkeina, my student just 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:45.920 successfully defended or dissertation yesterday on time Varying effective models 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:50.800 of behavior a complete a span of effect including traits, attitudes, moods, 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.480 and emotions. UH. We'd like to think it's the most 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:58.359 complete model of emotion for any robotics system ever. Today. 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:02.000 It's like a palette. You can wonderful emotion and effective 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:05.600 portraits that can interact with human beings. But the real 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.720 question is does emotion belong in the battle field and 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:14.080 what value does it bring? M What value does emotion 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.880 bring to the battlefield. Some could argue that fear would 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:20.320 be a useful one for in terms of self preservation, 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:24.000 but anger and frustration and many of the others seem 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:28.639 to UH tend to cloud judgment in human beings and 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:34.079 lead them towards criminal acts. That's what we'd like to 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:38.840 engineer out of the battlefield. If we potentially could. Now, 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.040 in some of my work I did include one of 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.240 the emotions. There are moral emotions which include empathy and 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.040 compassion and alike as well. Too. One could argue that 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:51.560 those emotions are already legislated into the Geneva Conventions. So 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.839 to some extent, if you adhere to that, you are 0:03:55.920 --> 0:04:00.280 being empathetic. Uh, you're not. You're understanding the distinction between 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.560 the civilian. You're making sure that you're not applying unnecessary 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.880 force in different sets of circumstances. You're making sure that 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:12.440 when you kill someone it is done in a way 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:16.919 which is not considered uncivilized. So in that sense, we 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.800 don't have to incorporate that motion directly into the ROADBOT 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:23.120 if and it follows those uh, those rules, it potentially can. 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:26.560 But what we did incorporates a different moral motion, which 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:32.040 was guilt. Interestingly enough, uh, we use guilt as a 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:37.479 mechanism by which the system could reduce the level of 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:40.200 force it uses if it doesn't fully understand it. So 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.360 let me give an example. Um. One of the things 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:48.360 that's done prior to the deployment of a weapon is 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.520 a battle damage estimate. So if you were going to 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:53.719 drop a bomb in a particular area. You would have 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.480 to have an estimate. This is religious proportionality on other things. Uh, 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.200 you would drop this weapon and you would expect such 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:07.120 and such to occur. Afterwards, you do a battle damage assessment. UM. 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:11.039 So suppose, for example, an autonomous system, say an intelligent 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.960 Reaper or something like that, the unmanned area vehicles they're 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:15.880 using now, which are under human control at this point 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:20.080 in time, made a decision that it was going to 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.240 drop a weapon, and it did a battle damage assessment. 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.880 It calculated the collateral damage it could occur. There's important 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.360 things to understand. What you're disturbing to many people about 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:31.919 the tolerance of civilian casualties and civilian deaths, which is 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:36.080 actually a part of warfare, but that that dates back 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.160 to the Middle Ages and the principle of double effect, 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.839 among other things. You're not a war criminal if you 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.680 kill a civilian. Your war criminal if you intentionally kill 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.040 a civilians. And there's fundamental differences. It's very hard to expect, 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:50.760 inspect a human mind to be able to tell. So 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:53.040 it's really interesting that he's talking about this model of 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:57.440 emotions for robotics system UM and even that the whole 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.920 point about how you don't necessarily need to program empathy 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:04.640 and compassion if the robot can follow the rules of 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:08.440 the Geneva conventions, right, so the protocols of it. So 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:11.640 if if the robot follows that, then you don't necessarily 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.719 need to to get into the weeds with empathy at 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:16.760 least in that case, right, if you've got a robot 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.880 but that is performing specific functions out on the battlefield. Um, 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:22.680 but I wanted to look a little bit more at 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:27.280 that Smith's and Debot componential I R T model for guilt, 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:31.680 because this is the cognitive model that they used for 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:33.960 their robots. And they said, okay, let's look at a 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:36.719 good model of guilt and how to program it. So 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.160 that model is actually they studied the process of the 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.360 structure of guilt and this what was administered to two 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.039 hundred and sevent equal students, and the finding show that 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:49.560 this kind of modeling is appropriate to investing through other emotions. Right, 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.800 But what you're using teenagers? Though? Oh yeah, the the 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.480 guiltiest humans on the planet, are you? I mean, yeah, 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:58.360 all right, I'm just a little I don't know about 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.440 using teenagers to program robots, you know, like, oh right, right, Well, 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:04.400 I mean you know, they were not you know, saying 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.400 like let's take their skill level at driving, or you know, 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.560 their their seat of judgment reasoning here and instilled in 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.960 a robot. I can just imagine robots becoming very moody, 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:19.000 having crushes and and and just all sorts of ridiculous stuff. Yeah. Yeah, 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:20.720 I mean, you know what, I'm sure there's a market 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.520 for that robot somewhere out there. Um. But there were 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:27.360 five different components of guilt, and the first one. I'll 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.200 just kind of run through these quickly because actually, there's 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:32.680 a really great paper on This is very long, so 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:36.160 I'm sure that nobody wants to hear uh twenty page 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:38.200 paper described here, So we'll just get to the meat 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.600 of it, which is the first The first condition is 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:44.840 that guilt implies an appraisal in terms of responsibility. Okay, Okay, So, 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.320 for example, guilt only appears in situations for which one 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:50.640 feels personally responsible for. Okay, So that's like, Um, I 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:52.840 was supposed to walk the dog and then the dog 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.360 pooped on the living room floor. Yeah, that's kind of 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:57.240 on me. Because I was supposed to walk the dog. 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:00.400 That was my responsibility. I feel guilty. Yeah. The poops 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.680 on you. The second is that guilt implies an appraisal 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.679 in terms of norm violation. A violation of a norm 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.080 or the moral order proceeds guilt. Yeah, dog poop does 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.000 not go in the living room floor. Right, that's a norm. 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.960 That's that's a norm and that norm has been defied. Right. 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.120 Guilt implies the third one, a negative self evaluation as 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.240 a covert reaction of the type I did something bad. 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:26.880 So it's the negative self of that evaluation relates to 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.280 an act, and it's not a definite disapproval of the 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.920 entire self. Okay, so it's like, hey, I'm a pretty 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:34.720 good guy, but man, I should have walked that dog 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:36.600 so it didn't poop on the living room floor. Yeah. 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:38.520 So I mean you're not going into a shame spiral, right, 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:40.880 So you're saying, gosh, I could I could probably be 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:43.000 better if I didn't do that. Exactly. I'm not losing 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:46.160 sleep over it. It's not a crisis, but to self 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:53.360 need to get better at walking that dog. Yes. This 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:56.760 presentation is brought to you by Intel Sponsors of Tomorrow. 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.880 Number four is, while feeling guilty, one's attention and inner 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:08.000 thoughts or covert ruminative ring reactions focused on the act 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:11.760 much more than on the self. I really hate that 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.480 that dog pooped on the floor, and it's my doing, 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:16.960 right that we're looking at here. Yeah, well, and I 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.560 was also kind of thinking about Lady Macbeth in the 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.960 super crazy way. She's not a norm obviously a guilt 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.480 but outdamn spot right, she's obsessed with the blood on 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.839 her hands, the imagined blood on her hands, and and 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:31.000 that's kind of the She's not doing a lot of 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.559 introspective work right, right, She's just turning it over in 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:36.880 her brain over and over in and then the fifth 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:41.280 one is that guilt implies the motivations and action tendencies 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:45.680 related uh to ourselves, So one is inclined to confess, 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.760 to undo one's fault and try to write what her 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:52.960 what was gone wrong with an apology. Okay, I'm not 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:55.880 sure how to relate that to the dog poop though, Well, 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:57.840 I mean I guess you could say, especially if this 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:00.840 is the space on teenagers, right, like, sorry, um, I 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:04.760 will not do that again. I will take the dog out. Okay. Yeah, 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:08.240 So I guess that's the acknowledgement part, right, So these 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.920 are that's the actual cognitive model that they used to 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.960 them program the robots, which is pretty fascinating. Right, So 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.160 you see that play out. Obviously, this is an algorithms 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.880 you know, it's a if if in then situation. Um. 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:25.600 But nonetheless, here we are trying to create some sort 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.760 of morality in robots, right, even if it's x than 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:34.880 y yes on carpet, then sat exactly exactly. Um. But 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.439 it was really interesting because Dr Arhin was talking about 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.240 this um, and then he was talking about in a 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:44.280 larger context, we need to really be thinking about robots 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.400 and our connection to them. So it's not just okay, 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:48.960 we'll use them out in the battlefield, but how do 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:52.880 we connect to technology as a whole. So he had 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.600 a little bit to say about why we can't help 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.800 but connect to technology even though it's not another human. 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.360 So let's hear that. But the real key for us 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:04.640 is I have been concerned in robotics from the very 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:10.440 beginning with the behavior of intelligence systems, and uh, these 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:14.680 kinds of things affect behavior. Fortunately, now we have architectures 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:19.600 where we can create and compose autonomously robotic behavior. So 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.360 these systems can do things in the context emissions or 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:25.080 in the context of your home or whatever you like. 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:27.720 And in some cases emotions are very useful. If you 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.400 want a robot companion, you would probably like it to 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:32.800 be able to express emotions so you could train with 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:37.280 it and but feel that it's more a part of you. 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.480 Remember the Tamaguchi's that people used to have, the little 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.959 watches that people would cry when they didn't feed them, 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:46.199 and they died in the In all sorts of things, 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:51.480 we have this propensity of human beings to create bonds 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:56.199 to artifacts extremely easily. Uh, it's very natural. Cliffness studied 0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:00.840 this in his book The Media Equation UH and documented 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:04.000 it very well that even if we fully understand that 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.760 this is an artifact, it doesn't matter. And what's interesting 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.800 is that roboticists, and this begs many different other ethical questions, 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.720 we can create these artifacts in ways that we can 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.640 make you want them. Uh. Same you go to a movie, right, 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:21.480 what are you watching? You're watching a bunch of dots 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:25.120 on a screen. Uh, And you walk out there crying, 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.000 laughing if it's a good movie, and you'll have paid 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:31.040 for the privilege of doing that, And you're being manipulated 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:33.320 all the time. Your emotions are being an it's like 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:38.360 a ride, right, Well, a robot could have that same capability, 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:40.800 but it can follow you around and it can be 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.160 more a portion of your life on a daily basis, 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:49.640 So that actually changes things to some degree. This physical 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:55.600 embodiment actually alters the equation in many people's minds, so 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:59.160 that there is an extra level of concern that we 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.720 need to address as we move forward with this technology. 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:04.120 So again it comes down to the fact that our 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:08.640 our emotions can be manipulated by anything. Yeah. I loved 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:10.640 it when he was talking about the movies. He was 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.480 just saying, look, this is sort of pixelated light and 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:17.360 you are crying, you know, um, because we can't help 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.480 but see ourselves in all those different situations. You know. 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:24.200 I guess it's like the rorshot test of our existence. Yeah, 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.640 it's like the we've I've mentioned before, the bit from 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.600 Community where Jeff Winger points outther you give a pencil 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:31.400 and name and then you snap it in half and 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.680 then we feel sad. You know. It's like we can 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.480 we can just become emotional attached just about anything. Yeah, 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.040 we ascribe meaning to everything. Um. And we've talked about 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.760 Sherry Chuckle before too. She's the psychologist who worked at 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:46.640 M I T for many years and and adults. Yeah, 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:49.880 she she developed a crush on Cog, the lab robot, 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.040 and found herself wishing that she had more alone time 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.320 with Cog in the sense that you know, the other 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.760 her her co workers were maybe bow guarding some time 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.800 with with Cog. Um. Not that she wanted to get 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.800 intimate with Cog. And we're making her sound crazier than 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.920 she No, No, she's actually she has some really interesting 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.120 things to say. She has a book out called Alone Together, um, 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.800 and about how again we're connecting with technology and we're 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.880 making the connection, but we're all doing it alone together. Um. 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:22.440 But so you know, actually dr Arkin brought her up 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:24.240 as well, because she was going to be talking at 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:28.200 Georgia Tech the week that we spoke to him. And 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.000 then he also brought up the fact that he teaches 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.800 robots ethics in terms of intimacy to his class and 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.440 robots and society. And of course you know who came 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:42.600 up during the XY with three exes. Well, hey, let's 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:46.040 hear what dr Arkin has to say about Foxy Roxy 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.800 and William's dissertation which I was mentioning, uh that she 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.560 very successfully passed yesterday one of the studies. We did 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.800 lots of human robot interaction studies, and one of those 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:00.920 was having a robot in a search and rescue mission. Uh, 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:05.440 start when a sudden event occurs, start to give commands 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:07.640 to a human being to evacuate, to get out of 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:11.320 the room. When we did it without the effective component, 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:15.280 there was very little compliance, actually none. Uh. Well he 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:17.920 added the effect people started moving when the robot told 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:23.560 him to go in that case. So the very interesting dimensions. Uh. 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.000 And you don't even need that in many cases. But 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:28.960 the point is that once the more and more we 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.200 understand human intelligence and human feelings, and the more and 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:36.360 more we put them into these systems, the more prone 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:40.280 we are to fall in love, to care, to whatever 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:42.800 with these particular devices. And that begs the next question, 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:44.800 which I'm talking about with my class this week as 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:49.560 well too in robot ethics. It is uh, intimacy and 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:52.760 how far you want to go? What is socially acceptable? 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.040 What is societally acceptable? Where are we going to draw 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:59.840 the lines? And very very very few people are we 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.960 wing to approach that subject. It's it's very interesting. There's 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:10.240 virtually no academic research whatsoever going in the intimate level, 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:14.680 the deeper levels of human robot interaction and robot sexuality. Uh, 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.400 there are no funding agencies that I am aware of, 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:22.200 it would dare to uh fund in that space. You 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:26.120 can imagine the repercussions that that could occur. But there 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:28.320 are people doing it. I was just saying, yet you 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.880 know there's a market for it because they've already Yeah, 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:35.640 it's exactly right. It's kind of like what the pornography 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:38.440 industry is being done in people's garages and warehouses and 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.120 the like as well too. There was the so called 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:47.320 first sex robot called roxy r o x R. Yes, exactly. 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:50.880 Oh boy, that's a bad robot. Sorry, I wouldn't even 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:53.200 call it a robot as well too. And the point 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:55.520 is you can make claims about things which are completely 0:16:55.600 --> 0:17:00.200 unfounded because people don't understand the the ways of which 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:04.480 humans relate to these particular artifacts. And if you're abhoard 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.640 by the mere thought of that, that's okay, But then 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:09.239 what you're gonna do about it? I mean, are you 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:15.160 going to provide guidelines, restrictions, regulations for the conductor research? 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.000 Right now? There are no such guidelines of restrictions, So 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.600 there's just a social pressure, as Lessig would talk about 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:26.760 in this context. But we may uh, and I also 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:30.760 have to blame our own profession for not coming up 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.920 with much in the way of regulate, regulating the way 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.320 in which we do things. It's still it was a 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.119 real cow cowboy cow girl field when I first got started. H. 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:46.160 Now we have much more effective scientific measures for evaluating results, 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:50.840 but we still haven't got to the UH bioethics community 0:17:50.880 --> 0:17:52.919 as well too in those aspects, although we do and 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.040 I am a member, a founding member the technically Tripoli 0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:00.280 Technical Committee and robo ethics. But it's getting stronger. People 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:04.560 are understanding that we're succeeding. That's the scary song. You see, 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.120 there were actually succeeding in making these kinds of artifacts 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:10.720 and the consequences of them. Uh, we don't fully understand. 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.240 So Roxy a bad robot, Yeah, a bad robot in 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:18.120 Roxy's case. They're taking their uh sort of well less 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.560 successful attempt at a healthcare robot and turning it into 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:25.040 a into a sex spot for to make a few, 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:28.879 you know, to to to generate a little more revenue flow, 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:34.000 so to speak. Yeah. Yeah, but but yeah, so's the 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.640 issues out there. We we we need to be thinking 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.080 about it. Uh and and uh, yeah, I don't know 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:41.520 if it means we need to found like a you know, 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:45.520 the Sex Spot Institute of North America or what right? Right? 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:47.960 And actually I think this isn't included in the in 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.879 the audio, but I did ask him about whether or 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:55.440 not these issues surrounding intimacy with robots or something that 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.200 are slow going in the United States and are are 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:01.600 are more talked about in Europe for instance, And he said, well, 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:03.160 you know, like a good scientist, I don't have any 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.000 data so I can tell you that, but I can 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:08.520 tell you that people started talking about it in Europe, uh, 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:11.080 far earlier than we are now talking about it in 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:13.720 the United States. Um. And that there are all sorts 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.480 of issues that they're talking about with robotics in terms 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.040 of like even like robotic spare parts. If you were 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:23.520 to have you know, say an exo skeleton arm, um, 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:25.560 you know, who should get that arm who should have 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:31.280 access to these enhancements essentially? Um? You know? And and 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:33.240 I said, oh, that kind of makes me think that 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:37.159 there could be this black market created for some of 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.680 this technology if we don't now start thinking about how 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:42.879 we want to release it to the public or we 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:47.399 want the public at large using technology. UM. And so 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:49.600 when you talk about things like that, like a exo 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:53.440 skeleton or a robotic arm, then you're really talking more 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.439 like people who might use it in terroristic acts, you know, 0:19:56.600 --> 0:20:00.520 or to to bolster those sort of um, terroristic acts, 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.320 if that makes any sense. But not like the building 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:06.040 of a sex spot in their basement. Well that's that's 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:08.159 a concern too. But he was sort of saying, this 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.040 is all a part and parcel that that you know, 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:13.159 in in Europe, some of these other considerations have been 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.520 going on for a while. UM, have the have nots, 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.119 who would have access to it? How would it be used? 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:22.840 You know, what's what's the best use of this technology? Um? 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:28.080 And he also brought up another really interesting point about 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.720 you know, really looking at the situation and trying to 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:35.679 figure out are we we being sensitive to it in 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:39.159 the right ways? Are we really listening to all of 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:45.880 the voices, um that are out there, including neo Luddites. Yeah. 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:48.840 And it turns out that he actually has his class 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.920 study Ted Kaczynski and UM in some of his writings 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:55.600 in terms of neo Luddites and what they can learn 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:01.800 as programmers about the technology they're creating. Uh. And of course, 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.480 for those of you who aren't familiar, Kazynski was of 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:10.119 course the Unibomber, famous for the Unibomber Manifesto, which is 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:12.960 another documented is that is far too long to read, 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:17.560 and it's entirety here. Some only gonna read half of it. 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:19.959 Um No, I'm just gonna read a couple well, just 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:21.639 a brief excerpt from it here, just to give you 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:24.159 an idea in case you've never looked at it. It 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:27.440 starts off like this, The Industrial Revolution and its consequences 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:29.520 have been a disaster for the human race. They have 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.760 greatly increased the life expectancy of those of us who 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:35.760 live in advanced countries, but they have distabilized society, have 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:39.439 made life unfulfilling, has subjected human beings to indignities, have 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.720 allowed to widespread psychological suffering in the third world, to 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:45.919 physical suffering as well, and have inflicted severe damage on 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.280 the natural world. And it kind of goes on from there. 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:52.480 And there's is kind of a downer about about technology 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:56.639 in the modern age and where it's headed, and it's 0:21:56.680 --> 0:22:01.720 it's just a very grim you on how technology has 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:05.119 changed life on Earth. Yeah, and just just for a 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:08.960 little refresher for everybody to He actually sent sixteen mail 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:12.320 bombs to various targets at universities and airlines, um, and 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:17.080 an attempt to get his message across UM. So obviously 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:21.960 this was someone who is not uh playing with full 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:25.560 deck and was had some interesting things to say, but 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:31.480 was more psychotic. Yeah, and um, you know, killed some 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:33.200 people and it was it was not a good thing. 0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.240 But you know, again that being said, it was interesting 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:40.280 to to look at the material I assume of a 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:44.359 Neil Ludite and try to find points there, points of 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:47.200 consideration at least. I mean, it's like with politics, even 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:48.960 if you're more of a middle to line person, it 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:52.320 pays to at least glance over and see what the 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:56.399 the extreme opinions on either side are thinking about. Yeah, well, 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:58.479 let's hear what Dr Orkand has to say about that. 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:02.639