Speaker 1: LinkedIn News. I think that if we're going to address
Speaker 1: the topic of this is an expensive degree, you need
Speaker 1: to make it work for you. Okay, you don't need
Speaker 1: to be out here going to school with one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifteen thousand dollars student debt taking on a thirty
Speaker 1: thousand dollars job. I'm so sorry, booboo, go get some
Speaker 1: oysters you need. Yes, but seriously, like, you got to
Speaker 1: make it work for you. Would I do it again?
Speaker 1: I don't know, Little Spicy, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Should we leave it there? Should we get into it?
Speaker 2: I think we get into it.
Speaker 1: I think we get into it.
Speaker 2: From LinkedIn News and I heard podcasts. This is Let's
Speaker 2: Talk Offline, a show about what it takes to thrive
Speaker 2: in the early years of your career without sacrificing your values, sanity,
Speaker 2: or sleep. I'm Gianna Prudente.
Speaker 1: And I'm Jamaie Jackson Gadsden. So grad school should you go?
Speaker 1: Should you skip it? You're all of us, at some
Speaker 1: point in our careers have considered if going to grad
Speaker 1: school is actually worth it. I mean, it's a really
Speaker 1: big decision. But yeah, there are plenty of benefits to
Speaker 1: pursuing grad school.
Speaker 2: But in today's market, there can be a lot of
Speaker 2: cons too. You're probably thinking about the cost. You're asking yourself,
Speaker 2: what would I gain if I went back to school,
Speaker 2: or wondering if you even need another degree. Well, we're
Speaker 2: going to break it all down and help you figure
Speaker 2: out whether grad school is the right move for you.
Speaker 2: So when I think about the decision to go to
Speaker 2: grad school, there's a lot to figure out.
Speaker 1: To actually make the decision yes or no should I go.
Speaker 2: So later on in the show, we're going to bring
Speaker 2: on career educator Rob Kim, who's going to talk to
Speaker 2: us about what we need to figure out before making
Speaker 2: that big decision. But before we talk to Rob, Jamay,
Speaker 2: let's start the convo by talking about the pros and
Speaker 2: cons of grad school as somebody who's gone to grad school.
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, yeah, I have a lot of opinions. But
Speaker 1: let's just take like an aerial view of grad school.
Speaker 1: Zoom right, let's a little zoom out. So there's a
Speaker 1: number of pros I mean to start. You know, having
Speaker 1: a higher education degree does make you more competitive in
Speaker 1: your field. You also can gain specialized knowledge and skills,
Speaker 1: which is always great no matter what industry you're in
Speaker 1: there's always more to learn. Another pro that I will
Speaker 1: add is if you are a student of the world, right,
Speaker 1: if you just love to learn, Like, there's nothing like
Speaker 1: being in a classroom setting, whether it's virtual or in person,
Speaker 1: that I think you can just benefit from a number
Speaker 1: of other things, like, for instance, you know, there's this
Speaker 1: idea that as you continue to upskill, you also are
Speaker 1: putting yourself in a position to make more money. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so you know, there's this idea that going to
Speaker 1: grad school or getting you know, post secondary educations will
Speaker 1: allow you to make more money. And then the last
Speaker 1: thing I will just say as a pro is that
Speaker 1: you do get to build community and networking. You know,
Speaker 1: when I was in grad school, we actually transition into
Speaker 1: a fully remote setting because the pandemic was happening.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, as you went to grad school recently, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I went to grad.
Speaker 1: School in twenty twenty career nineteen eighteen. I love that
Speaker 1: something I'm going backwards something like that, right, No, literally,
Speaker 1: no concept. But it was really nice because then you
Speaker 1: had people who you can lean on, you can talk
Speaker 1: to that kind of kept you in routine, right, and
Speaker 1: so like those are some of the pros. On the
Speaker 1: flip side, there are equally as many cons. I think
Speaker 1: that you should think about. First of all, we have
Speaker 1: to talk about the costs. It is expensive. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: say that as I literally just bought like an eight
Speaker 1: hundred dollars bag. I saw it, I saw with her
Speaker 1: own eye. But I'm serious. You know, grad school can
Speaker 1: be really, really, really expensive, and you also risk incurring
Speaker 1: long term debt. I mean nowadays, you know, with student
Speaker 1: loans picking back up, like, it's a lot for people,
Speaker 1: and sometimes you have to think if the reward outweighs
Speaker 1: the risk. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that's what's really hard too, because I'm like,
Speaker 2: is it gonna pay off or not?
Speaker 1: You know, like I want a distinct answer. I make
Speaker 1: this big investment. Yeah, I'm gonna tell you my rule
Speaker 1: of thumb in a second about that. But I definitely
Speaker 1: agree that that is sort of the biggest hindrance I
Speaker 1: think for people. Another one is time. Right on the
Speaker 1: one hand, you know, you think, oh, hey, do I
Speaker 1: need to go to grad school right after I've graduated,
Speaker 1: because that's when you really have the time. But then
Speaker 1: you also are like, but should I actually get out
Speaker 1: into the workforce make some money? First and then go back.
Speaker 1: But then how do I juggle having a full nine
Speaker 1: to five?
Speaker 2: Who? Girl?
Speaker 1: There were people in my program who had kids who
Speaker 1: are married, like I wasn't married at the time. I
Speaker 1: was like, how are you doing all these things and
Speaker 1: caring for yourself? Like this is a lot. And then
Speaker 1: another thing is you might not even need an advanced degree.
Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting now the conversation's happening around
Speaker 1: how people are just getting real world experience and they're
Speaker 1: applying that. I mean, even I think about my job
Speaker 1: at LinkedIn. There are a number of my coworkers who
Speaker 1: don't have a graduate degree and exactly right, and so
Speaker 1: it's like it's almost this idea of like you will
Speaker 1: always end up where you're supposed to be anyway. So
Speaker 1: those are a couple of things that I think we
Speaker 1: have to look out from the pros and the cons.
Speaker 1: But gee, you're talking to gen Z all the time,
Speaker 1: what are sort of the ideas and trends that they're
Speaker 1: coming up with as far as like going to grad school?
Speaker 1: Is it a thing? Is it a thing?
Speaker 2: Is it not?
Speaker 1: Is it canceled enough?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: I actually was curious, like what the let's talk offline
Speaker 2: community was thinking about grad school. So I put up
Speaker 2: a pull in my profile asking gen zers to weigh
Speaker 2: in on, like, what's the one thing that's holding you
Speaker 2: back from going to grad school if you're considering it,
Speaker 2: And unsurprisingly, the number one factor is the financial cost,
Speaker 2: which you mentioned, and then that was followed by this
Speaker 2: idea of like I don't know if it's going to
Speaker 2: pay off, I'm not sure I need it, and then
Speaker 2: the last one was the timing. So I think people
Speaker 2: are definitely considering it, but that affordability aspect is always
Speaker 2: going to be a barrier to entry, and as like
Speaker 2: you were mentioning, like, as the cost of living just
Speaker 2: continues to rise and rise, young people feel like they're
Speaker 2: facing more financial barriers and.
Speaker 1: As a result, you're likely to forego higher education.
Speaker 2: And you know, I see a lot online now about
Speaker 2: gen z going to trade school and kind of embracing
Speaker 2: other ways to upscale than traditional education.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that a lot, because the same way
Speaker 1: as we can talk about like nonlinear career paths, I
Speaker 1: think that a lot of people are taking nonlinear education paths,
Speaker 1: and I think at the end of the day, you
Speaker 1: have to figure out what works for you, and I
Speaker 1: think like the data is starting to back that up
Speaker 1: as well. But we cannot, you know, underestimate the fact
Speaker 1: that people want this. It's just expensive. So I'm not
Speaker 1: going to ask Gianna you, my gen Zier, have you
Speaker 1: ever considered going to grad school?
Speaker 2: Okay, So I have my experience with grad school is
Speaker 2: you know, I've seen some of my friends go. So
Speaker 2: a few friends have gone to grad school right after
Speaker 2: undergrad because what they studied, you know, they decided, ooh,
Speaker 2: I'm not pursuing this. I'm going to go to grad school,
Speaker 2: get a different degree, and then go into my career.
Speaker 2: And I think at the time I entered the workforce,
Speaker 2: a lot of people in my age were going to
Speaker 2: grad school immediately, kind of to shelter in place while
Speaker 2: the economy worked its way out. But me, personally, I've
Speaker 2: decided against it for now because I'm honestly not sure
Speaker 2: what I would study. So right now I'm not too sure.
Speaker 2: But I would love one day to be an adjunct professor.
Speaker 2: So I'm assuming I'll need to get another degree to
Speaker 2: be able to do that.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm all over the place. I'm like, should
Speaker 2: I go to law school. Should I get my MBA.
Speaker 1: And you deserve to do those should you be a baker?
Speaker 1: But I want to do everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the real one is like I really want to
Speaker 2: go to culinary school or like patry school. So and
Speaker 2: you can do all the above, yeah, but nonetheless it's
Speaker 2: all expensive. So if somebody's trying to finance my second degree,
Speaker 2: let me know, reach out to me on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, is someone gonna match Gianna's financial
Speaker 1: free get the money?
Speaker 2: So okay, but now I want to know your experience
Speaker 2: with grad school. So you went not too long ago,
Speaker 2: right before the pandemic, and you studied the business of fashion, right, yes.
Speaker 1: So let's take a step back. So I went to
Speaker 1: grad school about four years after I graduated undergrad. So
Speaker 1: you know, I took the time, I got the world
Speaker 1: world experience, and I started saying, okay, well, what programs
Speaker 1: are out there that match where I'm at right now.
Speaker 1: At that time, I was still doing a lot of
Speaker 1: reporting in the fashion and beauty space, and so I
Speaker 1: was like, it would be great to figure out some
Speaker 1: skills that can apply to this industry. But I did
Speaker 1: not want to go so niche that I siloed myself
Speaker 1: from other opportunities because I've always known I'm going to
Speaker 1: do other things. So I ended up studying at lam
Speaker 1: College here in New York. I got an MPs, which
Speaker 1: is a little bit different than in the Masters of Arts,
Speaker 1: and MPs is a Master of Professional Studies. Essentially, what
Speaker 1: it does is it combines the focused study of your
Speaker 1: traditional grad degrees like an M or an MS, but
Speaker 1: then you also started getting specialized industry specific skills. So
Speaker 1: when I tell people that I have my MPs in
Speaker 1: Business of Fashion, everyone focuses on the fashion part, right,
Speaker 1: but really you can nix that fashion part off. It's
Speaker 1: really like almost an NBA program. And that's exactly what
Speaker 1: I wanted to do, right, because I have this really
Speaker 1: unique opportunity where I get to sit sort of at
Speaker 1: the fork between what corporate life looks like, but then
Speaker 1: also what entrepreneurship life looks like. I knew that I
Speaker 1: was going to be able to not only help whatever
Speaker 1: company I worked for, but also me the biggest company
Speaker 1: of all, you know what I mean. So I also
Speaker 1: wanted to go to grad school to up my bag. Okay,
Speaker 1: I wanted to be able to say, yeah, it's Jamay
Speaker 1: Jackson MPs. Okay, put them a little letters behind my name.
Speaker 1: You want that embroidered on that bag. You to pay
Speaker 1: me for my goods and services, because you know, there
Speaker 1: was this idea that going to grad school would allow
Speaker 1: you to command more money now here. It was my
Speaker 1: rule of thumb. I told myself, however much this master's
Speaker 1: degree is about to cost me, that is the number.
Speaker 1: Take that number and put it on my current salary.
Speaker 1: And then and that's what my next salary needed to be.
Speaker 1: I needed to pay for the degree. Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: when I graduated and I started looking for new jobs,
Speaker 1: I wasn't looking for anything less than that number. And girl,
Speaker 1: you got it. I got it. I got it. But
Speaker 1: like I mean, I mean, remember we think about, like
Speaker 1: you know, manifestation, putting it out there and thinking on it.
Speaker 1: But I think that if we're going to address the
Speaker 1: topic of this is an expensive degree, you need to
Speaker 1: make it work for you. Okay, you don't need to
Speaker 1: be out here going to school with one hundred and
Speaker 1: fifteen thousand dollars student debt taking on a thirty thousand
Speaker 1: dollars job. I'm so sorry, booboo, go get some oysters.
Speaker 1: You need, yes, but seriously, like you got to make
Speaker 1: it work for you? Would I do it again? I
Speaker 1: don't know, Little Spicy.
Speaker 3: I don't know it.
Speaker 1: I think we get into it. I think we get
Speaker 1: into it. I'm thankful, But again when I think about
Speaker 1: did I I need to do this to get where
Speaker 1: I needed to get to? I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: the truth. Also, I don't work in the fashion industry anymore.
Speaker 2: So are you saying that like you wantn't do it
Speaker 2: again because of like, experience wise, it didn't you know,
Speaker 2: help you get however, many steps ahead? But money wise
Speaker 2: it did?
Speaker 1: I think money wise yes, the upskilling, But also could
Speaker 1: I have done that through some online degrees? Could I
Speaker 1: have done that going to community college and taking like
Speaker 1: a couple of business courses? I mean, honestly, I think
Speaker 1: those are the two things that I ask myself often.
Speaker 1: It's like, girl, aside from the money, did you need
Speaker 1: this to be able to do what you're doing? And
Speaker 1: then also, you know, I'm equally as squirrely as you like,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I want to do this today and then
Speaker 1: tomorrow I want to be a superhero, and then I
Speaker 1: want to do this next year. Figuring out well, what
Speaker 1: am I going to study and put all this money behind?
Speaker 1: Can be the challenge. And don't get me wrong, my
Speaker 1: MPs helps me every single day out in business. I
Speaker 1: know how to negotiate contracts, I know how to work
Speaker 1: with brands. I know how to do all the things
Speaker 1: that helped me Jammy Jackson, the actor, the creative. But
Speaker 1: do did I need that to end up at LinkedIn?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Don't necessarily think I needed to do that. In fact,
Speaker 1: I know I didn't because there are people like you
Speaker 1: who are equally as talented who did not get that training.
Speaker 1: So it's a little bit of a double edged store. Plus,
Speaker 1: like I didn't have any debt coming out of undergrad,
Speaker 1: I have debt now, And I was like, oh gosh,
Speaker 1: this is what y'all be talking about. I don't like that.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the clubs to New net Just kidding. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna pay my student loans.
Speaker 2: I appreciate your honesty.
Speaker 1: So is grad school in your future? If you're still
Speaker 1: on the fence, don't worry, because we're about to talk
Speaker 1: with career educator Rob Kim about how to decide whether
Speaker 1: grad schools for you. After the break. All right, guys,
Speaker 1: so we are back and we are talking all about
Speaker 1: out grad school and if that is your ministry, if
Speaker 1: you are called for it. Gianna and I could talk
Speaker 1: about this all day long, but of course we had
Speaker 1: to bring in a superstar who would help us answer
Speaker 1: this question this week? Gianna, who do we have this
Speaker 1: week for the people?
Speaker 2: I am so excited to bring on Rob Kim. He
Speaker 2: is the Associate Director of Lifelong Learning at Alumni UBC
Speaker 2: working at the University of British Columbia. He's an educator
Speaker 2: and facilitator who believes in applying learning and development approaches
Speaker 2: to support everyone's career and professional growth.
Speaker 1: Rob. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 3: Thanks Rob, thanks for having me. First of all, I
Speaker 3: just want to say I've enjoyed listening to the podcast
Speaker 3: so far. I love how you're reaching out to gen Z.
Speaker 3: You two have a great, hilarious dynamic, so I really
Speaker 3: happy to be here.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: We did not pay Rob to say that anyway.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2: Rob. We're so excited to chat to you about this
Speaker 2: topic today. And I want to start because you went
Speaker 2: to grad school, so I want to hear from your
Speaker 2: experience and when you went to earn your master's in
Speaker 2: educational and technology.
Speaker 1: What was going through your head? What encourage you to
Speaker 1: pursue that degree.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean to be honest,
Speaker 3: it was probably about the money, like money first, and
Speaker 3: then like opportunity second. So I want to explain a
Speaker 3: little bit though the money aspect. You know, I was
Speaker 3: teaching at the time, and if you had a master's
Speaker 3: you would actually go to a different pay scale, So
Speaker 3: I figured, like, why wouldn't I get paid more to
Speaker 3: do the same job, right? And then opportunity. I realized
Speaker 3: I wanted to be a bit proactive with my career,
Speaker 3: and I was figuring that I might go into administration
Speaker 3: down the line, so like a vice principal for instance,
Speaker 3: and you know, in order to do that you needed
Speaker 3: your masters as a minimum. So those are the two
Speaker 3: big things, and one other thing. I was going to
Speaker 3: be married in a couple of years from them, and
Speaker 3: I figured it'd be easier time for me to go
Speaker 3: to school at that point.
Speaker 1: So what questions should other people be asking themselves if
Speaker 1: they're thinking about going to grad school? But then also,
Speaker 1: what are the signs that maybe grad school is not
Speaker 1: the right option for you?
Speaker 3: You know, I think the questions obviously that you should
Speaker 3: be asking are going to be based on your situation.
Speaker 3: So when I worked with students around this, this is
Speaker 3: actually the part where you do a lot of written reflection,
Speaker 3: taking an inventory of your values, interests, and skills. And
Speaker 3: this step is really important for you to then figure
Speaker 3: out the type of questions you want to ask. You know,
Speaker 3: if you don't know where you're at, like how can
Speaker 3: you know where you want to go? And then I
Speaker 3: think with that, I do this like three R framework
Speaker 3: to generate questions from that, and that would be research, reality,
Speaker 3: and ROI. So like the first is like research, you know,
Speaker 3: what do I know about these programs? Who can I
Speaker 3: talk to? So I mean like Gianna, for you, like
Speaker 3: with a journalistic background, like what kind of question would
Speaker 3: you ask when you're at that research phase if you're
Speaker 3: deciding go to grad school, Like what would that sound
Speaker 3: like for you?
Speaker 2: You know, I talked about this earlier because I said
Speaker 2: to Jamay, like, I don't know what I would study
Speaker 2: if I went to grad school. So I would be
Speaker 2: curious from somebody who has a journalism background, who's surrounded
Speaker 2: by people who maybe went to journalism school for their masters,
Speaker 2: Like what would be the benefit to someone like me
Speaker 2: earning an advanced degree and what kind of areas of
Speaker 2: expertise could I explore in grad school that would complement
Speaker 2: my undergrad degree?
Speaker 3: And see, I think that's a perfect question, right, because
Speaker 3: I think sometimes when people are asking this, they think
Speaker 3: there's that Okay, this question is going to tell me everything.
Speaker 3: It's just more like curiosity figuring out where you are
Speaker 3: and where you can get to a little bit. So
Speaker 3: you know, that goes to that second, that reality. I
Speaker 3: remember talking to a student once they're thinking about grad school,
Speaker 3: and I just kind of asked, like, why do you
Speaker 3: want to go into this program? And they had a
Speaker 3: real tough time articulating the answer, right, and the reality
Speaker 3: for this person, they were feeling lost, and therefore they thought,
Speaker 3: you know, let's continue to do something safe, which is school,
Speaker 3: Like I know this system, it's familiar to me in
Speaker 3: many way allow them to avoid reality, right, that reality
Speaker 3: of going out finding a job. So I think asking
Speaker 3: those sort of questions what's actually real going on for
Speaker 3: you is really important. And then the third one I
Speaker 3: think about is the ROI right, that return on investment,
Speaker 3: So to me, that's time and money, right, Like, how
Speaker 3: much time can you dedicate for me? I was really
Speaker 3: like clinical with my decision. I was like, I want
Speaker 3: to work full time. I can't not have money coming in,
Speaker 3: so what program is going to allow me to do that?
Speaker 3: Like part time? So, like, time and money are really important,
Speaker 3: and I think that's probably the biggest factor for most people.
Speaker 3: Grad school is not cheap, right, you know, and it's
Speaker 3: not working while going to school. It's a double whammy.
Speaker 3: So I really get that conundrum lots of people are feeling.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that you kind of gave us a
Speaker 1: framework of questions that one should ask themselves, because you're
Speaker 1: actually now making me think if you can't answer those things,
Speaker 1: or if you can't kind of articulate the clear value
Speaker 1: you would get, those might be the signs that you
Speaker 1: maybe should reconsider grad school. So I really appreciate you
Speaker 1: for saying that, because y'ah, check the signs, read the signs.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I love that it's not a one size
Speaker 2: fits all approach, which I think people want. Like selfishly,
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, what are the questions I got asked myself?
Speaker 2: But I am wondering, are there certain professions where going
Speaker 2: to grad school will benefit you more than in a
Speaker 2: different industry, Like will it give you a competitive edge
Speaker 2: if you work in XYZ industry?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think obviously there's going to be
Speaker 3: some schools that are going to give you competitive edge, right,
Speaker 3: especially if we're talking professional programs where it's like a
Speaker 3: clear outcome to a position. But you know, it's hard
Speaker 3: to predict the job market, right. I remember a friend
Speaker 3: of mine many years ago, like they were doing their
Speaker 3: masters in electrical engineering. Tech was really big at the time,
Speaker 3: and when you graduate, the tech sector had bottomed out.
Speaker 3: So I think the value of the like any graduate program,
Speaker 3: is a little bit more of like what are the
Speaker 3: skills you're building? What's the network? Is there experiential learning involved?
Speaker 3: Is there a project or internship component? Is there portfolio
Speaker 3: being produced?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: These are things that are all potential evidence for future employers. Now.
Speaker 3: I think maybe ten twenty years ago we could have said, yes,
Speaker 3: it gives you competitive edge, but we are seeing now
Speaker 3: that some companies are moving to a skill based hiring approach.
Speaker 3: Right before it used to be like must have undergrad
Speaker 3: masters required, you're seeing them remove these sort of things.
Speaker 3: So I think that competitive edge is maybe being a
Speaker 3: little bit diluted certainly. But I think again it goes
Speaker 3: back to that ROI you really want to consider do
Speaker 3: I want to dedicate this time and money knowing that
Speaker 3: there's no certainty? So am I still going to get
Speaker 3: value of expanding my mind, my horizons, those things that
Speaker 3: learning can give us. Yeah? Great, but it's tough to say, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So like let's say someone you know, they're listening
Speaker 1: still and they're like, Okay, no, I know I want
Speaker 1: to go to grad at school, but like I don't
Speaker 1: even know where to start as far like how to
Speaker 1: look for the graduate program? What steps would you give
Speaker 1: on how they can determine what program is right for them?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's kind of funny when I am
Speaker 3: doing some of these queer conversations with people, it actually
Speaker 3: is some big picture questions, you know, and so it's
Speaker 3: figuring out kind of what the deal breakers are for you. So,
Speaker 3: you know, cost is a big one. I think that's
Speaker 3: a really it's okay to start there. Sometimes I think
Speaker 3: geographic location you be surprised sometimes of like some people
Speaker 3: aren't really thinking about, like, you know, if family is
Speaker 3: really important to your community some people want that adventure,
Speaker 3: and other people are like, oh, even though they targeted
Speaker 3: the school, they haven't really realized like you're on the
Speaker 3: other side now, the coast, Like it's a big thing, right,
Speaker 3: And then I think what's really important I think for
Speaker 3: gen Z is like that values alignment. Does this program
Speaker 3: represent the impact I'm seeking to make? Can I see
Speaker 3: that people graduating from this program are actually doing the
Speaker 3: work that I hope to do? These sort of things,
Speaker 3: and I think these are some of the things I'd
Speaker 3: be thinking about, you know, then we can get into
Speaker 3: of course, like the type of school, the names, these
Speaker 3: sort of things that I always like to start with
Speaker 3: some of these broader questions because you'd be surprised at
Speaker 3: how quickly, you know, people kind of stop or start
Speaker 3: from those.
Speaker 1: Yeah, are there any other questions that you think, like,
Speaker 1: you know, particularly if you're meeting with like either program directors,
Speaker 1: maybe you have friends or you know, former colleagues who
Speaker 1: are now in some of the programs that you're evaluating,
Speaker 1: that other questions that people should be asking so that
Speaker 1: they can kind of make a strong call on whether
Speaker 1: this is the right choice for them or not.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of like informational interviews.
Speaker 3: You're trying to get maybe the insight that's not showing
Speaker 3: up on the profile of the school page showing up
Speaker 3: in the media. So maybe that's with students. I think
Speaker 3: is again, what are sort of the resources available? Did
Speaker 3: you feel support as a student? I would be keen
Speaker 3: to see if there's experiential learning embedded, you know. To me, again,
Speaker 3: those are some great advantages. How is their graduate alumni support? Right?
Speaker 3: Do they have program that connects you with these alumni?
Speaker 3: Do they have mentorship programs? Like I would be looking
Speaker 3: at all the other systems around that to get real
Speaker 3: value from my degree. And you know, classroom, the professors, yes,
Speaker 3: that all matters, but it's the infrastructure, right that is
Speaker 3: going to take that degree up a level. We all
Speaker 3: know that, right, So you're just trying to get a
Speaker 3: clearer picture to help you make a better decision.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that all right, Rob.
Speaker 2: Since you've been listening to the show, you know, we
Speaker 2: have our dear Work Bestie segment where we bring up
Speaker 2: a listener question, so got to throw it at you.
Speaker 2: This week's comes from Kelly in California.
Speaker 4: I just graduated from college and have always thought about
Speaker 4: getting a master's degree. I'm still on the fence about
Speaker 4: whether to go to grad school, but I'm worried that
Speaker 4: if I wait too long to make a decision, it
Speaker 4: might be harder to get into a good school. Is
Speaker 4: there ever a right or best time to go back
Speaker 4: to school?
Speaker 1: What do you think? Rob Ooh love this question.
Speaker 3: Oh that's a good question, Kelly, I'm hearing a little
Speaker 3: bit like this is a legit concern, right, Is it
Speaker 3: ever right time to go back to school? But I
Speaker 3: would maybe see if we need to address a little
Speaker 3: bit of the sitting on a fence issue first, right,
Speaker 3: because you know, once you can figure out what your
Speaker 3: commitment is, then you can take that action. And one
Speaker 3: way I kind of do that as a favorite coaching
Speaker 3: exercise of mine is kind of you unearth kind of
Speaker 3: where you're sitting with the head, heart and gut method.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever done this before, Jamay,
Speaker 3: I know you have some really good acting skills. So
Speaker 3: let's do like a little bit of a role play here.
Speaker 3: And you can do this with a friend or you
Speaker 3: can do it with yourself. But Jama, let's say you're
Speaker 3: not sure about doing a master's and so I want
Speaker 3: you to just respond with a yes, maybe or no,
Speaker 3: don't overthink it, okay. So the first one is I
Speaker 3: want you to touch your head and what does your
Speaker 3: head say about grad school? No? Okay? Now I want
Speaker 3: you to touch your heart and what does your heart
Speaker 3: say about grad school?
Speaker 1: Maybe?
Speaker 3: Okay? And then I want you to touch your gut
Speaker 3: and what did your gut say about grad school?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: Okay? So I like that because now you get to
Speaker 3: sit down and really figure out, Okay, what am I hearing? No? Maybe?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: In this case, it almost might be even clear, like
Speaker 3: maybe this is not for me, maybe my heart saying
Speaker 3: I want to learn. I want to, but it's not
Speaker 3: for me right now. So I really like this. I
Speaker 3: use this all the time for like exercise on any
Speaker 3: big decisions. And so I would maybe say to Kelly,
Speaker 3: try this first to see where you are, because if
Speaker 3: you're sitting on the fence, then there's never a right time.
Speaker 1: Rob. Can I ask a question though, because I mean,
Speaker 1: first of all, that was such a wonderful exercise. If
Speaker 1: you are a chronic overthinker, as Gianna and I have
Speaker 1: both admitted many times on this podcast that we are,
Speaker 1: sometimes I think you can start figuring out. Okay, so
Speaker 1: what should I be listening to? Should I be listening
Speaker 1: to my head? Should I be listening to my heart?
Speaker 1: Is my gut? Do I have indigestion? What is happening today?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: What is the marker here? Like if you're getting a
Speaker 1: signal from one thing and it's and it kind of
Speaker 1: is different than another, what's the indicator here?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think what you're asking almost like tell me. So
Speaker 3: I think what I like about this exercise is open
Speaker 3: to interpretation because you can, after you have a discussion,
Speaker 3: you say, you know, what I really value my rational side.
Speaker 3: It's been something that I've really leveraged and worked on,
Speaker 3: you know, and has helped me. So you might really
Speaker 3: lend more weight to what your head says. So it's
Speaker 3: really up to your interpretation. I mean, it's super easy
Speaker 3: when it's all no, you know in the ayah. I've
Speaker 3: had a situations where it's maybe maybe maybe, So it
Speaker 3: feels like again it's a mess, But it's an interesting
Speaker 3: jumping point because then you can ask questions like, well,
Speaker 3: what would it take for your heart to say yes
Speaker 3: right or no? Right? So I love this exercise and
Speaker 3: again you can do it yourself. I've done it many
Speaker 3: times where I'm stuck and I'll literally say okay, Rob
Speaker 3: and just do that just to help me feel a
Speaker 3: little bit better.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: I want to ask a quick follow up, Rob, before
Speaker 2: we move on from Kelly's question, because you know, she
Speaker 2: mentions that she waits too long it might be harder
Speaker 2: to get.
Speaker 1: Into a good school.
Speaker 2: What do you think about that as their truth to that.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'll be honest, I don't think so I
Speaker 3: get it, and I mean I'm old. It's just my
Speaker 3: brain doesn't work as fastener. So I think I think
Speaker 3: there's that value. But I mean, we see people getting
Speaker 3: to school doing school at different time. I still think
Speaker 3: there's a little bit. When I hear these sort of questions,
Speaker 3: it's more of like, I'm stuck and it's scary. It
Speaker 3: is scary, right. Our brains crave certainty, which is really
Speaker 3: ironic because you're never certain, and so I appreciate what
Speaker 3: she's asking, but it's not that you're going to miss
Speaker 3: this window or something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, Rob, We've talked a little bit about some
Speaker 1: of the indicators of grad school, one of them being
Speaker 1: like people want to go because they hope that it'll
Speaker 1: lead them to a bigger bag. But we have to
Speaker 1: also admit that what stops a lot of people from
Speaker 1: going to grad school is exactly that money. From your perspective,
Speaker 1: are there any like financial resources or options that people
Speaker 1: can sort of look into if they have decided grad
Speaker 1: school is my yes, I just got to figure out
Speaker 1: how I'm a finance it.
Speaker 3: I mean, one option is you can get a Canadian
Speaker 3: citizenship because tuition is really cheap for domestic students. Okay
Speaker 3: with that, it is much cheaper if you look at
Speaker 3: Educate Higher ed up.
Speaker 1: Here and my cousins in Canada, and they say that
Speaker 1: all the time.
Speaker 3: It really is, you know, this is where actually I
Speaker 3: think you have to be a little bit proactive. I
Speaker 3: always think about my sister. She's like a go getter
Speaker 3: compared to me, And I remember in her grade twelve
Speaker 3: years she was like she was applying to all these
Speaker 3: little scholarships, these bursts, like all these things and just
Speaker 3: a mass, like, you know, collectively a good amount. And
Speaker 3: I always thought about that, how it's really figuring out
Speaker 3: what's out there? Right, So, like, are there programs that
Speaker 3: support you if you fall into like an equity like
Speaker 3: serving group. Right, have you looked into different associations and
Speaker 3: scholarship programs. I think about one like, I have a disability.
Speaker 3: I've worked with this organization Line Connect. They offer like
Speaker 3: a ton of scholarship opportunities for people with disability. Right,
Speaker 3: So it's knowing what's out there. I think of often
Speaker 3: with these programs, I'll have bursaries attached them, not scholarship,
Speaker 3: just like small ad bursaries to help, you know, bring
Speaker 3: costs down. Schools will have financial structures in place to
Speaker 3: help you out as well. If you're doing research graduate programs,
Speaker 3: then you you know you're going to get a little
Speaker 3: bit of stipend these sort of things that will cover
Speaker 3: some of the costs, but you know there there are
Speaker 3: ways to at least lower that that damage, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: hopefully hopefully.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier that we're in a strange top job
Speaker 2: market right now. It's continuing to change, and one part
Speaker 2: of going to grad school is that, yes, employers are
Speaker 2: now increasingly hiring by skills. But the other side of
Speaker 2: that is, you know, when you come out with the
Speaker 2: advanced degree, it might mean they got to pay you more.
Speaker 2: And that's part of the reason why you and Jimmy
Speaker 2: you know, went to grad school.
Speaker 1: But some might.
Speaker 2: Argue that companies are overlooking people with advanced degrees because
Speaker 2: of that, right, because they have to pay them more.
Speaker 2: So what are your thoughts on that and how might
Speaker 2: someone overcome this barrier to show that they're a candidate
Speaker 2: worth hiring, They're worth you know, the extra however much.
Speaker 3: I would really say to people, kind of focus on
Speaker 3: what you can control, Like, look, will there be a
Speaker 3: scenario that you're going to be overlooked due to cost, Yes,
Speaker 3: that sucks, but at the same time, like that's sometimes
Speaker 3: out of your control. So I would be you know
Speaker 3: you mentioned in a previous podcast, like your personal brand,
Speaker 3: Like I would be working on my personal brand, being
Speaker 3: clear of how my degree provides me value, how I
Speaker 3: would be worth that cost, that additional cost. Right, maybe
Speaker 3: I have the ability to do more complex research that
Speaker 3: they weren't anticipating. Maybe I need to demonstrate how I'm
Speaker 3: going to apply my learning in novel ways. So those
Speaker 3: are things I can control my personal brand and how
Speaker 3: I show up, because all I'm trying to do is
Speaker 3: I'm trying to convince the hiring people that I'm worth
Speaker 3: that value. That additional cost, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to be able to articulate your value
Speaker 1: and the value that you bring. And I appreciate that because,
Speaker 1: I mean, there is a quantifiable value of how much
Speaker 1: you've spent on your graduate program, you know. I think
Speaker 1: one of the things that I often get scared of
Speaker 1: are people who are going and paying all this money
Speaker 1: for a graduate program to enter into markets that do
Speaker 1: not pay well. Like you just spend one hundred and
Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars on a graduate on a master's degree,
Speaker 1: and then you're going to go take a thirty five
Speaker 1: thousand dollar job. The silence is so loud.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean it's that I think Chris Rock had
Speaker 3: like a joke of like, you know that a job's
Speaker 3: a good job is someone's going to pay you for it, right,
Speaker 3: So sometimes it is doing that job market research, which
Speaker 3: is why again I think it's like focusing on those skills,
Speaker 3: understanding how you can transfer them, and like understanding of
Speaker 3: your brand. Like if you can't speak to your brand,
Speaker 3: I don't care how many degrees you have, You're not
Speaker 3: going to convince someone to hire you. So it's that storytelling,
Speaker 3: that practice, the reflection that we talked about at the
Speaker 3: very beginning. Those are all part and parcel. Like, if
Speaker 3: you can't articulate your values, your skills, your interests, I
Speaker 3: mean you're going to have a hard time convincing someone
Speaker 3: to hire you, right in any.
Speaker 1: Regard, definitely, Well, that is such a great note to
Speaker 1: end on all.
Speaker 2: You know, we love talking about personal branding, so we
Speaker 2: could keep talking about this forever. But you gave me
Speaker 2: a lot to think about, Rob. I know, as I
Speaker 2: you know, think about the idea of grad school, but
Speaker 2: my gut was saying, no, so I gotta go back
Speaker 2: and do this exercise again.
Speaker 1: No, I was going to say, You've given me a
Speaker 1: lot to think about because I'm the crazy lady who
Speaker 1: wants to go back to school again because that's just
Speaker 1: I love learning. Well, Rob, where can we find you?
Speaker 1: Where can people connect with you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can find me at alumni, dot UBC, dot CA,
Speaker 3: backslash Careers. I'm the Associate director of Lifelong Learning, so
Speaker 3: we do a lot of programming for people on a
Speaker 3: range of career topics from job search to you know,
Speaker 3: understanding what recruiters are looking for. So you can go
Speaker 3: there and actually anyone, you don't have to be UBC alumni.
Speaker 3: You don't have to go to UBC and I'm personally
Speaker 3: I'm on LinkedIn all the time, so you can find
Speaker 3: me there and connect with me there.
Speaker 1: Sweet guys, all of his information will be down in
Speaker 1: the show description, so make sure you check it out.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Rob, We appreciate job.
Speaker 3: No problem.
Speaker 2: So Rob drops some great advice. Going back to school
Speaker 2: isn't an easy decision, but we hope this combo helps
Speaker 2: point you in the right direction after the break. It's
Speaker 2: great to have workplace friends, but how about enemies. Ooh,
Speaker 2: that's next thing I'm really taking away from our conversation,
Speaker 2: which doesn't seem so groundbreaking, but it's this idea that,
Speaker 2: like going to grad school, that decision is not so
Speaker 2: black and white. There's no one size fits all approach,
Speaker 2: and it really comes down to the individual. I think
Speaker 2: you guys know me by now, like I do not
Speaker 2: play well in the gray.
Speaker 1: I love a.
Speaker 2: Black and white situation, but this really is something that
Speaker 2: takes thoughtful consideration and asking yourself questions, and like you
Speaker 2: and Rob were kind of saying, if you can't answer,
Speaker 2: like why I want to go, it's probably just not
Speaker 2: the right.
Speaker 1: Decision for you. Yeah, I think, like that's such a
Speaker 1: great framework for anything in life. Right, Like I loved
Speaker 1: the head heart Gut exercise. It was so nice and
Speaker 1: it was grounding also, but to do it, yeah, I
Speaker 1: was like breathing. I was like, wow, look at me
Speaker 1: breathing because be so groundbreaking. But like, I definitely think
Speaker 1: like head, heart gut is a way that you can
Speaker 1: kind of just do checks with yourself about anything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but definitely for a decision that is this big. And
Speaker 1: then also I think what's really important here is just
Speaker 1: to remember, like your career for most people is going
Speaker 1: to be nonlinear, and so you really want to take
Speaker 1: into consideration. Is the decision that I'm making today for
Speaker 1: grad school gonna set me up for who I may
Speaker 1: be down the road. Remember we talked all about the
Speaker 1: personal branding episode, Like you are allowed to evolve, and
Speaker 1: your brand is going to evolve. You want to make
Speaker 1: sure that your education is in alignment with that gradual
Speaker 1: progression as well. Yeah, you know, I love.
Speaker 2: That you said there's other ways to upscale and like
Speaker 2: boost your education, because yes, being like a lifelong learner
Speaker 2: like Rob is so important and that's especially important in
Speaker 2: today's workforce. But there's other ways to do it than earning,
Speaker 2: you know, your master's degree.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. Well, look, you know grad school is expensive,
Speaker 1: and you got to keep those receipts. Speaking of them,
Speaker 1: let's talk about show the receipts. This is our segment
Speaker 1: where we get to look at the latest workplace trends
Speaker 1: and headlines, maybe even some workplace myths and see if
Speaker 1: there's any truth to them. Now, geez, what are we
Speaker 1: talking about today? Okay?
Speaker 2: Today the topic is the benefits of a work Please
Speaker 2: enemy Jessy, oh, Jamy looks dead inside.
Speaker 1: Okay, we are enemies.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 2: So Slate published an article titled having an enemy at
Speaker 2: work might help you get ahead immediately grab my attention,
Speaker 2: and it presents the idea of the anti mentor.
Speaker 1: So an anti mentor what does that? Yeah, thank you?
Speaker 2: P asking is somebody who shows you what not to
Speaker 2: do at work. So, for example, maybe they're a coworker
Speaker 2: who's like really bad at communicating, or a manager who
Speaker 2: just like does not fulfill their promises.
Speaker 1: So they're also those.
Speaker 2: People who are just like annoying to work with. I
Speaker 2: don't know that you say you like hate these people,
Speaker 2: because my mom always said he is a strong word,
Speaker 2: but you definitely like you know you you just like
Speaker 2: some people. But they're important. These anti mentors are important
Speaker 2: because they help shape your values about work and the
Speaker 2: kind of leader or colleague you want to be. Okay,
Speaker 2: so lots to think about here. What do you think
Speaker 2: is there any truth to this idea that a workplace
Speaker 2: enemy can actually be a good thing?
Speaker 1: And do you have enemies? Am I one of them?
Speaker 1: Let's leave Gianna at home, let's see Okay. So to
Speaker 1: bring it back to one of my favorite topics on
Speaker 1: the podcast, I guess you gotta kiss a couple of
Speaker 1: bad frogs. I guess to get to your pa say
Speaker 1: that they say that they don't be kissing no frogs.
Speaker 1: That's nasty. But I do think that sometimes seeing people
Speaker 1: or experiencing people that you know, you're like, yeah, not
Speaker 1: my ministry, not my vibe, no, helps inform you of
Speaker 1: like what you are looking for. It's the same thing
Speaker 1: as like when we were talking about, like in our
Speaker 1: manager episode, having bad managers is actually a great way
Speaker 1: for you to see like what you would not want
Speaker 1: to do should you ever become a manager or if
Speaker 1: you're getting a new manager. Some of the boundaries that
Speaker 1: you want to set right. So I do think that
Speaker 1: there's some truth to this. I think that there is
Speaker 1: some validity in this idea of seeing people as either
Speaker 1: people who are directly impacting you or people who indirectly
Speaker 1: educate you on things that you don't want. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I've had a couple of people, you know, throughout my
Speaker 1: career and stuff that I'm just like, ooh, yeah, what
Speaker 1: do you think. I feel like Gianna doesn't have enemies
Speaker 1: that you know of I want you to tap into.
Speaker 1: They don't right, they don't know. No, just never let
Speaker 1: them see you come and gee, yeah, so I agree
Speaker 1: with you. I'm signing off on all your receipts.
Speaker 2: But I think the term anti mentor just seems a
Speaker 2: bit dramatic to me because it's like a little bit scary.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, it's definitely given like dark shadowy figure
Speaker 1: in like a dark alley thing. You know, you love
Speaker 1: your horror, so that's all for you.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I just think I do agree that if
Speaker 2: there's somebody who you work with who is kind of
Speaker 2: showing you ways not to do things because you notice
Speaker 2: they're bad at communicating, and other people kind of have
Speaker 2: picked up on that. Then I think it's informative and
Speaker 2: I think that's helpful. But where I think you got
Speaker 2: to drop the line is like when that person becomes
Speaker 2: toxic or if they're like your manager who is blocking
Speaker 2: your career growth, then that is just not a good situation.
Speaker 2: There's no benefit to having that person, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And I think like that's sort of like
Speaker 1: the cautionary tale here, right, like know when to tell
Speaker 1: the difference, no, when to use something as inspiration versus
Speaker 1: when it is actually impeding on your career growth. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so I guess the receipts are out, Like we both
Speaker 1: think that like an anti mentor, I mean, even though
Speaker 1: we could probably relabel that let's talk offline about that.
Speaker 1: But like, I think an anti mentor is beneficial in
Speaker 1: the sense of it showing you what you don't want
Speaker 1: to do or be, but be cautionary about it. Don't
Speaker 1: allow this to affect you in your workplace. Know how
Speaker 1: to pivot should that arise. Yeah, I agree. Well, I
Speaker 1: would love to know from you all if you all
Speaker 1: have anti mentors in your life. Thank you guys so much.
Speaker 1: I know still all the tea let us know. But
Speaker 1: also thank you guys so much for listening for this episode.
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you guys, and make sure if you're not
Speaker 2: already following our newsletter. It's called Let's Talk Upline. You
Speaker 2: can find the link in the show description. It's also
Speaker 2: in my LinkedIn bio. We want to hear what you
Speaker 2: guys thought of the episode this week, so let us
Speaker 2: know by sharing a post on LinkedIn, you get tag
Speaker 2: Jamy and I will meet you there in the comments.
Speaker 1: Let's discuss. Let's to discuss with our work besties.
Speaker 2: To be sure to join us in the comments. We
Speaker 2: want to hear from all you work besties.
Speaker 1: Some of you all may be anti mentors. How about that?
Speaker 1: God ah, that's the gag anyway, Kelly, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for sending in your question this week. I'm so
Speaker 1: thankful for you. Also, you all can be just like Kellen.
Speaker 1: You can send us your questions. Information on how to
Speaker 1: do that is also in the show description.
Speaker 2: That show description tease has been so much softer.
Speaker 1: Because I feel like they're getting it. But if you're
Speaker 1: not getting in the show description, sorry guys, Sorry I
Speaker 1: asked for it.
Speaker 2: Also, make sure you guys are rating and following the show.
Speaker 1: Leave us a review.
Speaker 2: We'd love to hear from you and make sure you're
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Speaker 2: when an episode drops each week before you go. Remember
Speaker 2: we've always got your back, so if something comes up.
Speaker 1: Let's Talk Offline.
Speaker 2: I'm Jonni Perdenti.
Speaker 1: And I'm Jamay Jackson Gadston Stay Thriving.
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