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Speaker 1: LinkedIn News. I think that if we're going to address

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Speaker 1: the topic of this is an expensive degree, you need

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Speaker 1: to make it work for you. Okay, you don't need

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Speaker 1: to be out here going to school with one hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifteen thousand dollars student debt taking on a thirty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars job. I'm so sorry, booboo, go get some

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Speaker 1: oysters you need. Yes, but seriously, like, you got to

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Speaker 1: make it work for you. Would I do it again?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Little Spicy, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Should we leave it there? Should we get into it?

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Speaker 2: I think we get into it.

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Speaker 1: I think we get into it.

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Speaker 2: From LinkedIn News and I heard podcasts. This is Let's

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Speaker 2: Talk Offline, a show about what it takes to thrive

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Speaker 2: in the early years of your career without sacrificing your values, sanity,

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Speaker 2: or sleep. I'm Gianna Prudente.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Jamaie Jackson Gadsden. So grad school should you go?

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Speaker 1: Should you skip it? You're all of us, at some

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Speaker 1: point in our careers have considered if going to grad

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Speaker 1: school is actually worth it. I mean, it's a really

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Speaker 1: big decision. But yeah, there are plenty of benefits to

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Speaker 1: pursuing grad school.

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Speaker 2: But in today's market, there can be a lot of

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Speaker 2: cons too. You're probably thinking about the cost. You're asking yourself,

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Speaker 2: what would I gain if I went back to school,

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Speaker 2: or wondering if you even need another degree. Well, we're

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Speaker 2: going to break it all down and help you figure

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Speaker 2: out whether grad school is the right move for you.

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Speaker 2: So when I think about the decision to go to

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Speaker 2: grad school, there's a lot to figure out.

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Speaker 1: To actually make the decision yes or no should I go.

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Speaker 2: So later on in the show, we're going to bring

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Speaker 2: on career educator Rob Kim, who's going to talk to

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Speaker 2: us about what we need to figure out before making

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Speaker 2: that big decision. But before we talk to Rob, Jamay,

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Speaker 2: let's start the convo by talking about the pros and

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Speaker 2: cons of grad school as somebody who's gone to grad school.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yes, yeah, I have a lot of opinions. But

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Speaker 1: let's just take like an aerial view of grad school.

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Speaker 1: Zoom right, let's a little zoom out. So there's a

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Speaker 1: number of pros I mean to start. You know, having

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Speaker 1: a higher education degree does make you more competitive in

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Speaker 1: your field. You also can gain specialized knowledge and skills,

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Speaker 1: which is always great no matter what industry you're in

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Speaker 1: there's always more to learn. Another pro that I will

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Speaker 1: add is if you are a student of the world, right,

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Speaker 1: if you just love to learn, Like, there's nothing like

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Speaker 1: being in a classroom setting, whether it's virtual or in person,

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Speaker 1: that I think you can just benefit from a number

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Speaker 1: of other things, like, for instance, you know, there's this

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Speaker 1: idea that as you continue to upskill, you also are

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Speaker 1: putting yourself in a position to make more money. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, there's this idea that going to

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Speaker 1: grad school or getting you know, post secondary educations will

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Speaker 1: allow you to make more money. And then the last

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Speaker 1: thing I will just say as a pro is that

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Speaker 1: you do get to build community and networking. You know,

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Speaker 1: when I was in grad school, we actually transition into

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Speaker 1: a fully remote setting because the pandemic was happening.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know, as you went to grad school recently, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I went to grad.

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Speaker 1: School in twenty twenty career nineteen eighteen. I love that

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Speaker 1: something I'm going backwards something like that, right, No, literally,

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Speaker 1: no concept. But it was really nice because then you

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Speaker 1: had people who you can lean on, you can talk

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Speaker 1: to that kind of kept you in routine, right, and

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Speaker 1: so like those are some of the pros. On the

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Speaker 1: flip side, there are equally as many cons. I think

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Speaker 1: that you should think about. First of all, we have

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Speaker 1: to talk about the costs. It is expensive. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: say that as I literally just bought like an eight

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars bag. I saw it, I saw with her

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Speaker 1: own eye. But I'm serious. You know, grad school can

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Speaker 1: be really, really, really expensive, and you also risk incurring

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Speaker 1: long term debt. I mean nowadays, you know, with student

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Speaker 1: loans picking back up, like, it's a lot for people,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes you have to think if the reward outweighs

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Speaker 1: the risk. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think that's what's really hard too, because I'm like,

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Speaker 2: is it gonna pay off or not?

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Speaker 1: You know, like I want a distinct answer. I make

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Speaker 1: this big investment. Yeah, I'm gonna tell you my rule

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Speaker 1: of thumb in a second about that. But I definitely

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Speaker 1: agree that that is sort of the biggest hindrance I

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Speaker 1: think for people. Another one is time. Right on the

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Speaker 1: one hand, you know, you think, oh, hey, do I

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Speaker 1: need to go to grad school right after I've graduated,

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Speaker 1: because that's when you really have the time. But then

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Speaker 1: you also are like, but should I actually get out

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Speaker 1: into the workforce make some money? First and then go back.

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Speaker 1: But then how do I juggle having a full nine

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Speaker 1: to five?

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Speaker 2: Who? Girl?

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Speaker 1: There were people in my program who had kids who

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Speaker 1: are married, like I wasn't married at the time. I

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Speaker 1: was like, how are you doing all these things and

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Speaker 1: caring for yourself? Like this is a lot. And then

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Speaker 1: another thing is you might not even need an advanced degree.

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Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting now the conversation's happening around

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Speaker 1: how people are just getting real world experience and they're

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Speaker 1: applying that. I mean, even I think about my job

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Speaker 1: at LinkedIn. There are a number of my coworkers who

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Speaker 1: don't have a graduate degree and exactly right, and so

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Speaker 1: it's like it's almost this idea of like you will

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Speaker 1: always end up where you're supposed to be anyway. So

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Speaker 1: those are a couple of things that I think we

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Speaker 1: have to look out from the pros and the cons.

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Speaker 1: But gee, you're talking to gen Z all the time,

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Speaker 1: what are sort of the ideas and trends that they're

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Speaker 1: coming up with as far as like going to grad school?

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Speaker 1: Is it a thing? Is it a thing?

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Speaker 2: Is it not?

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Speaker 1: Is it canceled enough?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 2: I actually was curious, like what the let's talk offline

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Speaker 2: community was thinking about grad school. So I put up

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Speaker 2: a pull in my profile asking gen zers to weigh

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Speaker 2: in on, like, what's the one thing that's holding you

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Speaker 2: back from going to grad school if you're considering it,

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Speaker 2: And unsurprisingly, the number one factor is the financial cost,

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Speaker 2: which you mentioned, and then that was followed by this

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Speaker 2: idea of like I don't know if it's going to

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Speaker 2: pay off, I'm not sure I need it, and then

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Speaker 2: the last one was the timing. So I think people

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Speaker 2: are definitely considering it, but that affordability aspect is always

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Speaker 2: going to be a barrier to entry, and as like

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Speaker 2: you were mentioning, like, as the cost of living just

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Speaker 2: continues to rise and rise, young people feel like they're

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Speaker 2: facing more financial barriers and.

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Speaker 1: As a result, you're likely to forego higher education.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I see a lot online now about

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Speaker 2: gen z going to trade school and kind of embracing

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Speaker 2: other ways to upscale than traditional education.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that a lot, because the same way

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Speaker 1: as we can talk about like nonlinear career paths, I

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Speaker 1: think that a lot of people are taking nonlinear education paths,

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Speaker 1: and I think at the end of the day, you

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Speaker 1: have to figure out what works for you, and I

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Speaker 1: think like the data is starting to back that up

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Speaker 1: as well. But we cannot, you know, underestimate the fact

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Speaker 1: that people want this. It's just expensive. So I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to ask Gianna you, my gen Zier, have you

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Speaker 1: ever considered going to grad school?

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I have my experience with grad school is

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Speaker 2: you know, I've seen some of my friends go. So

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Speaker 2: a few friends have gone to grad school right after

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Speaker 2: undergrad because what they studied, you know, they decided, ooh,

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Speaker 2: I'm not pursuing this. I'm going to go to grad school,

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Speaker 2: get a different degree, and then go into my career.

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Speaker 2: And I think at the time I entered the workforce,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people in my age were going to

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Speaker 2: grad school immediately, kind of to shelter in place while

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Speaker 2: the economy worked its way out. But me, personally, I've

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Speaker 2: decided against it for now because I'm honestly not sure

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Speaker 2: what I would study. So right now I'm not too sure.

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Speaker 2: But I would love one day to be an adjunct professor.

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Speaker 2: So I'm assuming I'll need to get another degree to

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Speaker 2: be able to do that.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm all over the place. I'm like, should

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Speaker 2: I go to law school. Should I get my MBA.

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Speaker 1: And you deserve to do those should you be a baker?

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Speaker 1: But I want to do everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the real one is like I really want to

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Speaker 2: go to culinary school or like patry school. So and

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Speaker 2: you can do all the above, yeah, but nonetheless it's

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Speaker 2: all expensive. So if somebody's trying to finance my second degree,

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Speaker 2: let me know, reach out to me on LinkedIn.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say, is someone gonna match Gianna's financial

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Speaker 1: free get the money?

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Speaker 2: So okay, but now I want to know your experience

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Speaker 2: with grad school. So you went not too long ago,

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Speaker 2: right before the pandemic, and you studied the business of fashion, right, yes.

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Speaker 1: So let's take a step back. So I went to

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Speaker 1: grad school about four years after I graduated undergrad. So

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Speaker 1: you know, I took the time, I got the world

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Speaker 1: world experience, and I started saying, okay, well, what programs

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Speaker 1: are out there that match where I'm at right now.

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Speaker 1: At that time, I was still doing a lot of

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Speaker 1: reporting in the fashion and beauty space, and so I

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Speaker 1: was like, it would be great to figure out some

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Speaker 1: skills that can apply to this industry. But I did

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Speaker 1: not want to go so niche that I siloed myself

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Speaker 1: from other opportunities because I've always known I'm going to

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Speaker 1: do other things. So I ended up studying at lam

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Speaker 1: College here in New York. I got an MPs, which

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Speaker 1: is a little bit different than in the Masters of Arts,

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Speaker 1: and MPs is a Master of Professional Studies. Essentially, what

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Speaker 1: it does is it combines the focused study of your

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Speaker 1: traditional grad degrees like an M or an MS, but

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Speaker 1: then you also started getting specialized industry specific skills. So

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Speaker 1: when I tell people that I have my MPs in

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Speaker 1: Business of Fashion, everyone focuses on the fashion part, right,

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Speaker 1: but really you can nix that fashion part off. It's

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Speaker 1: really like almost an NBA program. And that's exactly what

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do, right, because I have this really

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Speaker 1: unique opportunity where I get to sit sort of at

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Speaker 1: the fork between what corporate life looks like, but then

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Speaker 1: also what entrepreneurship life looks like. I knew that I

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Speaker 1: was going to be able to not only help whatever

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Speaker 1: company I worked for, but also me the biggest company

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Speaker 1: of all, you know what I mean. So I also

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Speaker 1: wanted to go to grad school to up my bag. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be able to say, yeah, it's Jamay

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Speaker 1: Jackson MPs. Okay, put them a little letters behind my name.

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Speaker 1: You want that embroidered on that bag. You to pay

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Speaker 1: me for my goods and services, because you know, there

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Speaker 1: was this idea that going to grad school would allow

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Speaker 1: you to command more money now here. It was my

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Speaker 1: rule of thumb. I told myself, however much this master's

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Speaker 1: degree is about to cost me, that is the number.

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Speaker 1: Take that number and put it on my current salary.

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Speaker 1: And then and that's what my next salary needed to be.

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Speaker 1: I needed to pay for the degree. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: when I graduated and I started looking for new jobs,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't looking for anything less than that number. And girl,

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Speaker 1: you got it. I got it. I got it. But

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Speaker 1: like I mean, I mean, remember we think about, like

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Speaker 1: you know, manifestation, putting it out there and thinking on it.

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Speaker 1: But I think that if we're going to address the

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Speaker 1: topic of this is an expensive degree, you need to

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Speaker 1: make it work for you. Okay, you don't need to

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Speaker 1: be out here going to school with one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifteen thousand dollars student debt taking on a thirty thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars job. I'm so sorry, booboo, go get some oysters.

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Speaker 1: You need, yes, but seriously, like you got to make

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Speaker 1: it work for you? Would I do it again? I

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Speaker 1: don't know, Little Spicy.

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Speaker 3: I don't know it.

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Speaker 1: I think we get into it. I think we get

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Speaker 1: into it. I'm thankful, But again when I think about

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Speaker 1: did I I need to do this to get where

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Speaker 1: I needed to get to? I don't know if that's

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Speaker 1: the truth. Also, I don't work in the fashion industry anymore.

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Speaker 2: So are you saying that like you wantn't do it

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Speaker 2: again because of like, experience wise, it didn't you know,

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Speaker 2: help you get however, many steps ahead? But money wise

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Speaker 2: it did?

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Speaker 1: I think money wise yes, the upskilling, But also could

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Speaker 1: I have done that through some online degrees? Could I

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Speaker 1: have done that going to community college and taking like

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Speaker 1: a couple of business courses? I mean, honestly, I think

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Speaker 1: those are the two things that I ask myself often.

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Speaker 1: It's like, girl, aside from the money, did you need

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Speaker 1: this to be able to do what you're doing? And

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Speaker 1: then also, you know, I'm equally as squirrely as you like,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I want to do this today and then

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Speaker 1: tomorrow I want to be a superhero, and then I

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Speaker 1: want to do this next year. Figuring out well, what

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Speaker 1: am I going to study and put all this money behind?

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Speaker 1: Can be the challenge. And don't get me wrong, my

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Speaker 1: MPs helps me every single day out in business. I

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Speaker 1: know how to negotiate contracts, I know how to work

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Speaker 1: with brands. I know how to do all the things

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Speaker 1: that helped me Jammy Jackson, the actor, the creative. But

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Speaker 1: do did I need that to end up at LinkedIn?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Don't necessarily think I needed to do that. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I know I didn't because there are people like you

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Speaker 1: who are equally as talented who did not get that training.

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Speaker 1: So it's a little bit of a double edged store. Plus,

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Speaker 1: like I didn't have any debt coming out of undergrad,

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Speaker 1: I have debt now, And I was like, oh gosh,

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Speaker 1: this is what y'all be talking about. I don't like that.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the clubs to New net Just kidding. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna pay my student loans.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate your honesty.

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Speaker 1: So is grad school in your future? If you're still

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Speaker 1: on the fence, don't worry, because we're about to talk

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Speaker 1: with career educator Rob Kim about how to decide whether

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Speaker 1: grad schools for you. After the break. All right, guys,

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Speaker 1: so we are back and we are talking all about

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Speaker 1: out grad school and if that is your ministry, if

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Speaker 1: you are called for it. Gianna and I could talk

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Speaker 1: about this all day long, but of course we had

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Speaker 1: to bring in a superstar who would help us answer

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Speaker 1: this question this week? Gianna, who do we have this

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Speaker 1: week for the people?

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Speaker 2: I am so excited to bring on Rob Kim. He

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Speaker 2: is the Associate Director of Lifelong Learning at Alumni UBC

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Speaker 2: working at the University of British Columbia. He's an educator

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Speaker 2: and facilitator who believes in applying learning and development approaches

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Speaker 2: to support everyone's career and professional growth.

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Speaker 1: Rob. Thanks so much for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Rob, thanks for having me. First of all, I

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Speaker 3: just want to say I've enjoyed listening to the podcast

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Speaker 3: so far. I love how you're reaching out to gen Z.

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Speaker 3: You two have a great, hilarious dynamic, so I really

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Speaker 3: happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: We did not pay Rob to say that anyway.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming on.

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Speaker 2: Rob. We're so excited to chat to you about this

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Speaker 2: topic today. And I want to start because you went

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Speaker 2: to grad school, so I want to hear from your

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Speaker 2: experience and when you went to earn your master's in

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Speaker 2: educational and technology.

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Speaker 1: What was going through your head? What encourage you to

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Speaker 1: pursue that degree.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean to be honest,

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Speaker 3: it was probably about the money, like money first, and

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Speaker 3: then like opportunity second. So I want to explain a

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Speaker 3: little bit though the money aspect. You know, I was

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Speaker 3: teaching at the time, and if you had a master's

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Speaker 3: you would actually go to a different pay scale, So

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Speaker 3: I figured, like, why wouldn't I get paid more to

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Speaker 3: do the same job, right? And then opportunity. I realized

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Speaker 3: I wanted to be a bit proactive with my career,

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Speaker 3: and I was figuring that I might go into administration

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Speaker 3: down the line, so like a vice principal for instance,

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Speaker 3: and you know, in order to do that you needed

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Speaker 3: your masters as a minimum. So those are the two

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Speaker 3: big things, and one other thing. I was going to

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Speaker 3: be married in a couple of years from them, and

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Speaker 3: I figured it'd be easier time for me to go

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Speaker 3: to school at that point.

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Speaker 1: So what questions should other people be asking themselves if

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Speaker 1: they're thinking about going to grad school? But then also,

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Speaker 1: what are the signs that maybe grad school is not

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Speaker 1: the right option for you?

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Speaker 3: You know, I think the questions obviously that you should

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Speaker 3: be asking are going to be based on your situation.

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Speaker 3: So when I worked with students around this, this is

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Speaker 3: actually the part where you do a lot of written reflection,

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Speaker 3: taking an inventory of your values, interests, and skills. And

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Speaker 3: this step is really important for you to then figure

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Speaker 3: out the type of questions you want to ask. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you don't know where you're at, like how can

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Speaker 3: you know where you want to go? And then I

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Speaker 3: think with that, I do this like three R framework

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Speaker 3: to generate questions from that, and that would be research, reality,

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Speaker 3: and ROI. So like the first is like research, you know,

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Speaker 3: what do I know about these programs? Who can I

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Speaker 3: talk to? So I mean like Gianna, for you, like

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Speaker 3: with a journalistic background, like what kind of question would

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Speaker 3: you ask when you're at that research phase if you're

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Speaker 3: deciding go to grad school, Like what would that sound

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Speaker 3: like for you?

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Speaker 2: You know, I talked about this earlier because I said

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Speaker 2: to Jamay, like, I don't know what I would study

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Speaker 2: if I went to grad school. So I would be

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Speaker 2: curious from somebody who has a journalism background, who's surrounded

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Speaker 2: by people who maybe went to journalism school for their masters,

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Speaker 2: Like what would be the benefit to someone like me

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Speaker 2: earning an advanced degree and what kind of areas of

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Speaker 2: expertise could I explore in grad school that would complement

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Speaker 2: my undergrad degree?

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Speaker 3: And see, I think that's a perfect question, right, because

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Speaker 3: I think sometimes when people are asking this, they think

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Speaker 3: there's that Okay, this question is going to tell me everything.

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Speaker 3: It's just more like curiosity figuring out where you are

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Speaker 3: and where you can get to a little bit. So

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Speaker 3: you know, that goes to that second, that reality. I

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Speaker 3: remember talking to a student once they're thinking about grad school,

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Speaker 3: and I just kind of asked, like, why do you

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Speaker 3: want to go into this program? And they had a

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Speaker 3: real tough time articulating the answer, right, and the reality

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Speaker 3: for this person, they were feeling lost, and therefore they thought,

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Speaker 3: you know, let's continue to do something safe, which is school,

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Speaker 3: Like I know this system, it's familiar to me in

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Speaker 3: many way allow them to avoid reality, right, that reality

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Speaker 3: of going out finding a job. So I think asking

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Speaker 3: those sort of questions what's actually real going on for

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Speaker 3: you is really important. And then the third one I

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Speaker 3: think about is the ROI right, that return on investment,

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Speaker 3: So to me, that's time and money, right, Like, how

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Speaker 3: much time can you dedicate for me? I was really

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Speaker 3: like clinical with my decision. I was like, I want

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Speaker 3: to work full time. I can't not have money coming in,

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Speaker 3: so what program is going to allow me to do that?

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Speaker 3: Like part time? So, like, time and money are really important,

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Speaker 3: and I think that's probably the biggest factor for most people.

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Speaker 3: Grad school is not cheap, right, you know, and it's

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Speaker 3: not working while going to school. It's a double whammy.

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Speaker 3: So I really get that conundrum lots of people are feeling.

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Speaker 1: I really appreciate that you kind of gave us a

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Speaker 1: framework of questions that one should ask themselves, because you're

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Speaker 1: actually now making me think if you can't answer those things,

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Speaker 1: or if you can't kind of articulate the clear value

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Speaker 1: you would get, those might be the signs that you

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Speaker 1: maybe should reconsider grad school. So I really appreciate you

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Speaker 1: for saying that, because y'ah, check the signs, read the signs.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I love that it's not a one size

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Speaker 2: fits all approach, which I think people want. Like selfishly,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, what are the questions I got asked myself?

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Speaker 2: But I am wondering, are there certain professions where going

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Speaker 2: to grad school will benefit you more than in a

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Speaker 2: different industry, Like will it give you a competitive edge

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Speaker 2: if you work in XYZ industry?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think obviously there's going to be

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Speaker 3: some schools that are going to give you competitive edge, right,

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Speaker 3: especially if we're talking professional programs where it's like a

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Speaker 3: clear outcome to a position. But you know, it's hard

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Speaker 3: to predict the job market, right. I remember a friend

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Speaker 3: of mine many years ago, like they were doing their

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Speaker 3: masters in electrical engineering. Tech was really big at the time,

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Speaker 3: and when you graduate, the tech sector had bottomed out.

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Speaker 3: So I think the value of the like any graduate program,

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Speaker 3: is a little bit more of like what are the

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Speaker 3: skills you're building? What's the network? Is there experiential learning involved?

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Speaker 3: Is there a project or internship component? Is there portfolio

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Speaker 3: being produced?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 3: These are things that are all potential evidence for future employers. Now.

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Speaker 3: I think maybe ten twenty years ago we could have said, yes,

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Speaker 3: it gives you competitive edge, but we are seeing now

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Speaker 3: that some companies are moving to a skill based hiring approach.

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Speaker 3: Right before it used to be like must have undergrad

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Speaker 3: masters required, you're seeing them remove these sort of things.

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Speaker 3: So I think that competitive edge is maybe being a

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Speaker 3: little bit diluted certainly. But I think again it goes

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Speaker 3: back to that ROI you really want to consider do

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Speaker 3: I want to dedicate this time and money knowing that

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Speaker 3: there's no certainty? So am I still going to get

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Speaker 3: value of expanding my mind, my horizons, those things that

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Speaker 3: learning can give us. Yeah? Great, but it's tough to say, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So like let's say someone you know, they're listening

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Speaker 1: still and they're like, Okay, no, I know I want

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Speaker 1: to go to grad at school, but like I don't

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Speaker 1: even know where to start as far like how to

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Speaker 1: look for the graduate program? What steps would you give

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Speaker 1: on how they can determine what program is right for them?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's kind of funny when I am

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Speaker 3: doing some of these queer conversations with people, it actually

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Speaker 3: is some big picture questions, you know, and so it's

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Speaker 3: figuring out kind of what the deal breakers are for you. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, cost is a big one. I think that's

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Speaker 3: a really it's okay to start there. Sometimes I think

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Speaker 3: geographic location you be surprised sometimes of like some people

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Speaker 3: aren't really thinking about, like, you know, if family is

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Speaker 3: really important to your community some people want that adventure,

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Speaker 3: and other people are like, oh, even though they targeted

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Speaker 3: the school, they haven't really realized like you're on the

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00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 3: other side now, the coast, Like it's a big thing, right,

436
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 3: And then I think what's really important I think for

437
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 3: gen Z is like that values alignment. Does this program

438
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 3: represent the impact I'm seeking to make? Can I see

439
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 3: that people graduating from this program are actually doing the

440
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 3: work that I hope to do? These sort of things,

441
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,160
Speaker 3: and I think these are some of the things I'd

442
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,640
Speaker 3: be thinking about, you know, then we can get into

443
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 3: of course, like the type of school, the names, these

444
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,640
Speaker 3: sort of things that I always like to start with

445
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 3: some of these broader questions because you'd be surprised at

446
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 3: how quickly, you know, people kind of stop or start

447
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 3: from those.

448
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, are there any other questions that you think, like,

449
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,639
Speaker 1: you know, particularly if you're meeting with like either program directors,

450
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 1: maybe you have friends or you know, former colleagues who

451
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 1: are now in some of the programs that you're evaluating,

452
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 1: that other questions that people should be asking so that

453
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:37,919
Speaker 1: they can kind of make a strong call on whether

454
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 1: this is the right choice for them or not.

455
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of like informational interviews.

456
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 3: You're trying to get maybe the insight that's not showing

457
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 3: up on the profile of the school page showing up

458
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 3: in the media. So maybe that's with students. I think

459
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 3: is again, what are sort of the resources available? Did

460
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 3: you feel support as a student? I would be keen

461
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 3: to see if there's experiential learning embedded, you know. To me, again,

462
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 3: those are some great advantages. How is their graduate alumni support? Right?

463
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 3: Do they have program that connects you with these alumni?

464
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,919
Speaker 3: Do they have mentorship programs? Like I would be looking

465
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 3: at all the other systems around that to get real

466
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 3: value from my degree. And you know, classroom, the professors, yes,

467
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 3: that all matters, but it's the infrastructure, right that is

468
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,400
Speaker 3: going to take that degree up a level. We all

469
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 3: know that, right, So you're just trying to get a

470
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 3: clearer picture to help you make a better decision.

471
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that all right, Rob.

472
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 2: Since you've been listening to the show, you know, we

473
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 2: have our dear Work Bestie segment where we bring up

474
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 2: a listener question, so got to throw it at you.

475
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 2: This week's comes from Kelly in California.

476
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 4: I just graduated from college and have always thought about

477
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 4: getting a master's degree. I'm still on the fence about

478
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 4: whether to go to grad school, but I'm worried that

479
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 4: if I wait too long to make a decision, it

480
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 4: might be harder to get into a good school. Is

481
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,440
Speaker 4: there ever a right or best time to go back

482
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 4: to school?

483
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: What do you think? Rob Ooh love this question.

484
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 3: Oh that's a good question, Kelly, I'm hearing a little

485
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: bit like this is a legit concern, right, Is it

486
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 3: ever right time to go back to school? But I

487
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 3: would maybe see if we need to address a little

488
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 3: bit of the sitting on a fence issue first, right,

489
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 3: because you know, once you can figure out what your

490
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 3: commitment is, then you can take that action. And one

491
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 3: way I kind of do that as a favorite coaching

492
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 3: exercise of mine is kind of you unearth kind of

493
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 3: where you're sitting with the head, heart and gut method.

494
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever done this before, Jamay,

495
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 3: I know you have some really good acting skills. So

496
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 3: let's do like a little bit of a role play here.

497
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 3: And you can do this with a friend or you

498
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 3: can do it with yourself. But Jama, let's say you're

499
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 3: not sure about doing a master's and so I want

500
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 3: you to just respond with a yes, maybe or no,

501
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 3: don't overthink it, okay. So the first one is I

502
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 3: want you to touch your head and what does your

503
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 3: head say about grad school? No? Okay? Now I want

504
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 3: you to touch your heart and what does your heart

505
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 3: say about grad school?

506
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: Maybe?

507
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 3: Okay? And then I want you to touch your gut

508
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 3: and what did your gut say about grad school?

509
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: No?

510
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 3: Okay? So I like that because now you get to

511
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 3: sit down and really figure out, Okay, what am I hearing? No? Maybe?

512
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 2: No?

513
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: Right?

514
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,479
Speaker 3: In this case, it almost might be even clear, like

515
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 3: maybe this is not for me, maybe my heart saying

516
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 3: I want to learn. I want to, but it's not

517
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 3: for me right now. So I really like this. I

518
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: use this all the time for like exercise on any

519
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 3: big decisions. And so I would maybe say to Kelly,

520
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 3: try this first to see where you are, because if

521
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 3: you're sitting on the fence, then there's never a right time.

522
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 1: Rob. Can I ask a question though, because I mean,

523
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 1: first of all, that was such a wonderful exercise. If

524
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: you are a chronic overthinker, as Gianna and I have

525
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 1: both admitted many times on this podcast that we are,

526
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 1: sometimes I think you can start figuring out. Okay, so

527
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: what should I be listening to? Should I be listening

528
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: to my head? Should I be listening to my heart?

529
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: Is my gut? Do I have indigestion? What is happening today?

530
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 2: Like?

531
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: What is the marker here? Like if you're getting a

532
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: signal from one thing and it's and it kind of

533
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: is different than another, what's the indicator here?

534
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah?

535
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 3: I think what you're asking almost like tell me. So

536
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 3: I think what I like about this exercise is open

537
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 3: to interpretation because you can, after you have a discussion,

538
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 3: you say, you know, what I really value my rational side.

539
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 3: It's been something that I've really leveraged and worked on,

540
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 3: you know, and has helped me. So you might really

541
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 3: lend more weight to what your head says. So it's

542
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 3: really up to your interpretation. I mean, it's super easy

543
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 3: when it's all no, you know in the ayah. I've

544
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 3: had a situations where it's maybe maybe maybe, So it

545
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 3: feels like again it's a mess, But it's an interesting

546
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 3: jumping point because then you can ask questions like, well,

547
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 3: what would it take for your heart to say yes

548
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 3: right or no? Right? So I love this exercise and

549
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 3: again you can do it yourself. I've done it many

550
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 3: times where I'm stuck and I'll literally say okay, Rob

551
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 3: and just do that just to help me feel a

552
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 3: little bit better.

553
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: I love that.

554
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: I want to ask a quick follow up, Rob, before

555
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: we move on from Kelly's question, because you know, she

556
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: mentions that she waits too long it might be harder

557
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: to get.

558
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: Into a good school.

559
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 2: What do you think about that as their truth to that.

560
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I'll be honest, I don't think so I

561
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 3: get it, and I mean I'm old. It's just my

562
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 3: brain doesn't work as fastener. So I think I think

563
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 3: there's that value. But I mean, we see people getting

564
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 3: to school doing school at different time. I still think

565
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 3: there's a little bit. When I hear these sort of questions,

566
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 3: it's more of like, I'm stuck and it's scary. It

567
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 3: is scary, right. Our brains crave certainty, which is really

568
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,239
Speaker 3: ironic because you're never certain, and so I appreciate what

569
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 3: she's asking, but it's not that you're going to miss

570
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 3: this window or something like that.

571
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, Rob, We've talked a little bit about some

572
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: of the indicators of grad school, one of them being

573
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: like people want to go because they hope that it'll

574
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: lead them to a bigger bag. But we have to

575
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: also admit that what stops a lot of people from

576
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: going to grad school is exactly that money. From your perspective,

577
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 1: are there any like financial resources or options that people

578
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: can sort of look into if they have decided grad

579
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: school is my yes, I just got to figure out

580
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: how I'm a finance it.

581
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 3: I mean, one option is you can get a Canadian

582
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 3: citizenship because tuition is really cheap for domestic students. Okay

583
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 3: with that, it is much cheaper if you look at

584
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 3: Educate Higher ed up.

585
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: Here and my cousins in Canada, and they say that

586
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 1: all the time.

587
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 3: It really is, you know, this is where actually I

588
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 3: think you have to be a little bit proactive. I

589
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 3: always think about my sister. She's like a go getter

590
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 3: compared to me, And I remember in her grade twelve

591
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 3: years she was like she was applying to all these

592
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 3: little scholarships, these bursts, like all these things and just

593
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 3: a mass, like, you know, collectively a good amount. And

594
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 3: I always thought about that, how it's really figuring out

595
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 3: what's out there? Right, So, like, are there programs that

596
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 3: support you if you fall into like an equity like

597
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 3: serving group. Right, have you looked into different associations and

598
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 3: scholarship programs. I think about one like, I have a disability.

599
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 3: I've worked with this organization Line Connect. They offer like

600
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 3: a ton of scholarship opportunities for people with disability. Right,

601
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 3: So it's knowing what's out there. I think of often

602
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: with these programs, I'll have bursaries attached them, not scholarship,

603
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 3: just like small ad bursaries to help, you know, bring

604
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 3: costs down. Schools will have financial structures in place to

605
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: help you out as well. If you're doing research graduate programs,

606
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 3: then you you know you're going to get a little

607
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 3: bit of stipend these sort of things that will cover

608
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 3: some of the costs, but you know there there are

609
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 3: ways to at least lower that that damage, right, Yeah,

610
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 3: hopefully hopefully.

611
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

612
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier that we're in a strange top job

613
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 2: market right now. It's continuing to change, and one part

614
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: of going to grad school is that, yes, employers are

615
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: now increasingly hiring by skills. But the other side of

616
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: that is, you know, when you come out with the

617
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 2: advanced degree, it might mean they got to pay you more.

618
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: And that's part of the reason why you and Jimmy

619
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: you know, went to grad school.

620
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: But some might.

621
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: Argue that companies are overlooking people with advanced degrees because

622
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: of that, right, because they have to pay them more.

623
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: So what are your thoughts on that and how might

624
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: someone overcome this barrier to show that they're a candidate

625
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 2: worth hiring, They're worth you know, the extra however much.

626
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 3: I would really say to people, kind of focus on

627
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 3: what you can control, Like, look, will there be a

628
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 3: scenario that you're going to be overlooked due to cost, Yes,

629
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 3: that sucks, but at the same time, like that's sometimes

630
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 3: out of your control. So I would be you know

631
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 3: you mentioned in a previous podcast, like your personal brand,

632
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 3: Like I would be working on my personal brand, being

633
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 3: clear of how my degree provides me value, how I

634
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 3: would be worth that cost, that additional cost. Right, maybe

635
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 3: I have the ability to do more complex research that

636
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 3: they weren't anticipating. Maybe I need to demonstrate how I'm

637
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 3: going to apply my learning in novel ways. So those

638
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 3: are things I can control my personal brand and how

639
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 3: I show up, because all I'm trying to do is

640
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 3: I'm trying to convince the hiring people that I'm worth

641
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 3: that value. That additional cost, right.

642
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to be able to articulate your value

643
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: and the value that you bring. And I appreciate that because,

644
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: I mean, there is a quantifiable value of how much

645
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: you've spent on your graduate program, you know. I think

646
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: one of the things that I often get scared of

647
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: are people who are going and paying all this money

648
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: for a graduate program to enter into markets that do

649
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: not pay well. Like you just spend one hundred and

650
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars on a graduate on a master's degree,

651
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: and then you're going to go take a thirty five

652
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: thousand dollar job. The silence is so loud.

653
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 3: Well, I mean it's that I think Chris Rock had

654
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 3: like a joke of like, you know that a job's

655
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 3: a good job is someone's going to pay you for it, right,

656
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 3: So sometimes it is doing that job market research, which

657
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: is why again I think it's like focusing on those skills,

658
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 3: understanding how you can transfer them, and like understanding of

659
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 3: your brand. Like if you can't speak to your brand,

660
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 3: I don't care how many degrees you have, You're not

661
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 3: going to convince someone to hire you. So it's that storytelling,

662
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 3: that practice, the reflection that we talked about at the

663
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 3: very beginning. Those are all part and parcel. Like, if

664
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,959
Speaker 3: you can't articulate your values, your skills, your interests, I

665
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 3: mean you're going to have a hard time convincing someone

666
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 3: to hire you, right in any.

667
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: Regard, definitely, Well, that is such a great note to

668
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: end on all.

669
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: You know, we love talking about personal branding, so we

670
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: could keep talking about this forever. But you gave me

671
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: a lot to think about, Rob. I know, as I

672
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: you know, think about the idea of grad school, but

673
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: my gut was saying, no, so I gotta go back

674
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: and do this exercise again.

675
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: No, I was going to say, You've given me a

676
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: lot to think about because I'm the crazy lady who

677
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: wants to go back to school again because that's just

678
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: I love learning. Well, Rob, where can we find you?

679
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: Where can people connect with you?

680
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can find me at alumni, dot UBC, dot CA,

681
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 3: backslash Careers. I'm the Associate director of Lifelong Learning, so

682
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,479
Speaker 3: we do a lot of programming for people on a

683
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 3: range of career topics from job search to you know,

684
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 3: understanding what recruiters are looking for. So you can go

685
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 3: there and actually anyone, you don't have to be UBC alumni.

686
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 3: You don't have to go to UBC and I'm personally

687
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 3: I'm on LinkedIn all the time, so you can find

688
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 3: me there and connect with me there.

689
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: Sweet guys, all of his information will be down in

690
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: the show description, so make sure you check it out.

691
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: Thank you, Rob, We appreciate job.

692
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 3: No problem.

693
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 2: So Rob drops some great advice. Going back to school

694
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: isn't an easy decision, but we hope this combo helps

695
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: point you in the right direction after the break. It's

696
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: great to have workplace friends, but how about enemies. Ooh,

697
00:32:52,120 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: that's next thing I'm really taking away from our conversation,

698
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 2: which doesn't seem so groundbreaking, but it's this idea that,

699
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: like going to grad school, that decision is not so

700
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 2: black and white. There's no one size fits all approach,

701
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: and it really comes down to the individual. I think

702
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: you guys know me by now, like I do not

703
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: play well in the gray.

704
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: I love a.

705
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 2: Black and white situation, but this really is something that

706
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 2: takes thoughtful consideration and asking yourself questions, and like you

707
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: and Rob were kind of saying, if you can't answer,

708
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: like why I want to go, it's probably just not

709
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: the right.

710
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: Decision for you. Yeah, I think, like that's such a

711
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: great framework for anything in life. Right, Like I loved

712
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: the head heart Gut exercise. It was so nice and

713
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: it was grounding also, but to do it, yeah, I

714
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: was like breathing. I was like, wow, look at me

715
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: breathing because be so groundbreaking. But like, I definitely think

716
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: like head, heart gut is a way that you can

717
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: kind of just do checks with yourself about anything. Yeah,

718
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: but definitely for a decision that is this big. And

719
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: then also I think what's really important here is just

720
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: to remember, like your career for most people is going

721
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: to be nonlinear, and so you really want to take

722
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: into consideration. Is the decision that I'm making today for

723
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: grad school gonna set me up for who I may

724
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: be down the road. Remember we talked all about the

725
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: personal branding episode, Like you are allowed to evolve, and

726
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: your brand is going to evolve. You want to make

727
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: sure that your education is in alignment with that gradual

728
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: progression as well. Yeah, you know, I love.

729
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: That you said there's other ways to upscale and like

730
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: boost your education, because yes, being like a lifelong learner

731
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 2: like Rob is so important and that's especially important in

732
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 2: today's workforce. But there's other ways to do it than earning,

733
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 2: you know, your master's degree.

734
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. Well, look, you know grad school is expensive,

735
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: and you got to keep those receipts. Speaking of them,

736
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 1: let's talk about show the receipts. This is our segment

737
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: where we get to look at the latest workplace trends

738
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: and headlines, maybe even some workplace myths and see if

739
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: there's any truth to them. Now, geez, what are we

740
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: talking about today? Okay?

741
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: Today the topic is the benefits of a work Please

742
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: enemy Jessy, oh, Jamy looks dead inside.

743
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: Okay, we are enemies.

744
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 4: Okay.

745
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 2: So Slate published an article titled having an enemy at

746
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 2: work might help you get ahead immediately grab my attention,

747
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 2: and it presents the idea of the anti mentor.

748
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: So an anti mentor what does that? Yeah, thank you?

749
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: P asking is somebody who shows you what not to

750
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 2: do at work. So, for example, maybe they're a coworker

751
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 2: who's like really bad at communicating, or a manager who

752
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: just like does not fulfill their promises.

753
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 1: So they're also those.

754
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 2: People who are just like annoying to work with. I

755
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 2: don't know that you say you like hate these people,

756
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 2: because my mom always said he is a strong word,

757
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 2: but you definitely like you know you you just like

758
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 2: some people. But they're important. These anti mentors are important

759
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 2: because they help shape your values about work and the

760
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 2: kind of leader or colleague you want to be. Okay,

761
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: so lots to think about here. What do you think

762
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 2: is there any truth to this idea that a workplace

763
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 2: enemy can actually be a good thing?

764
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: And do you have enemies? Am I one of them?

765
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: Let's leave Gianna at home, let's see Okay. So to

766
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: bring it back to one of my favorite topics on

767
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: the podcast, I guess you gotta kiss a couple of

768
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: bad frogs. I guess to get to your pa say

769
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: that they say that they don't be kissing no frogs.

770
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: That's nasty. But I do think that sometimes seeing people

771
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: or experiencing people that you know, you're like, yeah, not

772
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: my ministry, not my vibe, no, helps inform you of

773
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: like what you are looking for. It's the same thing

774
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: as like when we were talking about, like in our

775
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: manager episode, having bad managers is actually a great way

776
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: for you to see like what you would not want

777
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: to do should you ever become a manager or if

778
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 1: you're getting a new manager. Some of the boundaries that

779
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: you want to set right. So I do think that

780
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: there's some truth to this. I think that there is

781
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: some validity in this idea of seeing people as either

782
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,919
Speaker 1: people who are directly impacting you or people who indirectly

783
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: educate you on things that you don't want. And yeah,

784
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: I've had a couple of people, you know, throughout my

785
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: career and stuff that I'm just like, ooh, yeah, what

786
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: do you think. I feel like Gianna doesn't have enemies

787
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: that you know of I want you to tap into.

788
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: They don't right, they don't know. No, just never let

789
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 1: them see you come and gee, yeah, so I agree

790
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: with you. I'm signing off on all your receipts.

791
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 2: But I think the term anti mentor just seems a

792
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: bit dramatic to me because it's like a little bit scary.

793
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, it's definitely given like dark shadowy figure

794
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: in like a dark alley thing. You know, you love

795
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: your horror, so that's all for you.

796
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 2: But yeah, I just think I do agree that if

797
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 2: there's somebody who you work with who is kind of

798
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: showing you ways not to do things because you notice

799
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 2: they're bad at communicating, and other people kind of have

800
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: picked up on that. Then I think it's informative and

801
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 2: I think that's helpful. But where I think you got

802
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 2: to drop the line is like when that person becomes

803
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: toxic or if they're like your manager who is blocking

804
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 2: your career growth, then that is just not a good situation.

805
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 2: There's no benefit to having that person, right.

806
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And I think like that's sort of like

807
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: the cautionary tale here, right, like know when to tell

808
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: the difference, no, when to use something as inspiration versus

809
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: when it is actually impeding on your career growth. Yeah, okay,

810
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: so I guess the receipts are out, Like we both

811
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: think that like an anti mentor, I mean, even though

812
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: we could probably relabel that let's talk offline about that.

813
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: But like, I think an anti mentor is beneficial in

814
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: the sense of it showing you what you don't want

815
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: to do or be, but be cautionary about it. Don't

816
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: allow this to affect you in your workplace. Know how

817
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: to pivot should that arise. Yeah, I agree. Well, I

818
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: would love to know from you all if you all

819
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 1: have anti mentors in your life. Thank you guys so much.

820
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: I know still all the tea let us know. But

821
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: also thank you guys so much for listening for this episode.

822
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you guys, and make sure if you're not

823
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 2: already following our newsletter. It's called Let's Talk Upline. You

824
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 2: can find the link in the show description. It's also

825
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: in my LinkedIn bio. We want to hear what you

826
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 2: guys thought of the episode this week, so let us

827
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 2: know by sharing a post on LinkedIn, you get tag

828
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 2: Jamy and I will meet you there in the comments.

829
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: Let's discuss. Let's to discuss with our work besties.

830
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 2: To be sure to join us in the comments. We

831
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 2: want to hear from all you work besties.

832
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: Some of you all may be anti mentors. How about that?

833
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: God ah, that's the gag anyway, Kelly, thank you so

834
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: much for sending in your question this week. I'm so

835
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: thankful for you. Also, you all can be just like Kellen.

836
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: You can send us your questions. Information on how to

837
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: do that is also in the show description.

838
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 2: That show description tease has been so much softer.

839
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: Because I feel like they're getting it. But if you're

840
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: not getting in the show description, sorry guys, Sorry I

841
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: asked for it.

842
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 2: Also, make sure you guys are rating and following the show.

843
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: Leave us a review.

844
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 2: We'd love to hear from you and make sure you're

845
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: following if you're not already, so that you get notified

846
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: when an episode drops each week before you go. Remember

847
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 2: we've always got your back, so if something comes up.

848
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: Let's Talk Offline.

849
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 2: I'm Jonni Perdenti.

850
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: And I'm Jamay Jackson Gadston Stay Thriving.

851
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 2: Let's Talk Offline is a production of LinkedIn News and

852
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,359
Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts. The show is produced by Western Sound. Our

853
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 2: producer is Sabrina Fang. The show is edited by Savannah Wright.

854
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Sarah Dilley. Alex mckinnis is our engineer,

855
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 2: and Ben Adair is the executive producer.

856
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: Executive producers at iHeart Podcasts are Katrina Norvel and Nikki Etoor.

857
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 1: We got support from LinkedIn's Jesse Humple, Sarah Storm, and

858
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: Ayana Angel. Maya Pope. Chappelle is director of Content, Dave

859
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 1: Pond is Head of News Production, Courtney Coop is head

860
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: of Original Programming, and Dan Roth is the editor in

861
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: chief of LinkedIn

862
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 3: Firefox