1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how stupp 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and we are getting technological about 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: our mentreal cycles today. That's right. We're bringing our periods 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: into the twenty first century. That's right. I guess they 6 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: were already there because we're in it right, But now 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: they can be on our phones and we can share 8 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: our periods with each other. It's like a math. So 9 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: I posted about period in fertility tracking apps on the 10 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You Facebook page a while back 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: because The New York Times published this article proclaiming that 12 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: period tracking apps are changing girl culture interesting. So getting 13 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: more people to talk about them, yes, like de stigma 14 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: to using them making periods fun finally right? Yeah? Um, 15 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: And I asked stuff I've Never told you fans whether 16 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: they use these apps and what their favorites are, and 17 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly y'all said, heck, yes, we absolutely use them. And 18 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,559 Speaker 1: the user favorite appears to be Clue, which I've also 19 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: noticed in a number of other period tracker app reviews 20 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: that Clue stands out from the rest. So you get 21 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:37,559 Speaker 1: your period in the library, Yes, with the Candlestick yes, 22 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: and and Tim Careisha is up and everybody's like, what's 23 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: going on? Well, no, miss Scarlett is Scarlett right? Or 24 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: since it's the stuff I've never told you, that would 25 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: be mss Scarlett. Um And for people not aware of 26 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: these period tracker apps, which um in in use includes myself. 27 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: I don't use a period track app hashtag I U 28 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: D S Yeah, but I wanted to pull up Clue 29 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: to just start this episode off walking through what this involves, 30 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: what this menstrual technology user experiences like, I give us 31 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: the UX rundown, it's the menstrual UX. So I've downloaded 32 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: Clue and the first thing I'm noticing is their logo 33 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,679 Speaker 1: looks like a like a biohazard symbol, kind of yaod 34 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: bio hazard fear, Like if a cloud and a bio 35 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: hazard got together. Yeah, used the period tracking app to 36 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: have a baby, it would be this, That's what they're 37 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: symbol would be. So we love the symbol. Next up, 38 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 1: it's asking me whether I want to track my cycle, 39 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: log my data or connect to someone else's cycle. And 40 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: this connecting is a new feature for Clue where you 41 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: and your girlfriends can finally actually sink perious. Yes, because 42 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: side no, that doesn't really happen, it's just happenstance. Yeah, 43 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: but so I love. That's why I love hence my 44 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: rockets laughter off the mic. So I selected for it 45 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: to track my period and Clue is saying, Hi, we 46 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 1: need to get to know you. So I'm saying, okay, 47 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: do you know about how long your period lasts? No? Okay, 48 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: Clue will use the global average of four days for now, 49 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: do you experience p MS? Uh? Ask my husband. I'm 50 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: just kidding. Okay, So this is gonna be a very 51 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: long process if I walk through all of them. But 52 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: it's going to ask me about my birthday, my height, 53 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: my weight, oh, sets up period reminders. We've got birth 54 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: control in here. Uh, there's a health app. So it 55 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: really is wanting to know all of my stats. And 56 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: this is pretty cool because Caroline, how often when you 57 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: go to the doctor and I ask you when your 58 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: last period was? Do you ever know? I? Yeah, I 59 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 1: never knew. But the thing is with having an iu 60 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: D is you don't really have a period. And so 61 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: that's what I just say. I just shrug and I 62 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: say I I D Yeah, Well, and we should say 63 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: we have you and I both have because we're D twins. 64 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,559 Speaker 1: The Marina, which is the hormonal iu D, which tends 65 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: to lighten your period, whereas people with the copper non 66 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: hormonal i u D tend to have heavier periods. So 67 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: we went for the lighter option. Yeah, I had been 68 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: on Skyla. I just the other day was tweeting from 69 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: the guy know about getting my marina, So you know, 70 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: there was an experience. It is an experience. But the 71 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: whole thing, you know, reading about these period tracking apps, 72 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: the thing that I find appealing about them, and I've 73 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: never used one, and I don't really foresee myself using one, 74 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: is that it seems like a really great way to 75 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: be in touch with your health, not just your period. 76 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: I mean, yes, um, it's a way to figure out 77 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: how long and how heavy and how that corresponds with 78 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: your health and all stuff. But it seems like a 79 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: really well, these these apps in generals seem like a 80 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: nice tool as part of your holistic approach to your 81 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: own health of of tracking how you feel and trying 82 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: to see where that intersects with actual health issues going on. Well, 83 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: especially considering how there are so many health conditions that 84 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: happened to biologically female bodies like endometriosis, fibroids, polycystic ovarian 85 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: syndrome where women tend to have to go to multiple 86 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: doctors to figure out what's going on. And I'm curious 87 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: for people who use these apps whether it has been 88 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: a helpful tool for things beyond your menstrual cycle, just 89 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: kind of seeing providing a gauge of what your baseline is. Um, 90 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: So I definitely see how these are really handy, and 91 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: I also get the argument that they are part of 92 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: sting up menstrel taboos. Yeah. I mean if you wear 93 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: a fitbit, you know, and you're tracking your calories uh 94 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: in that are coming in and out, then you know 95 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: period trackers the next step right, Well, and you would 96 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: have thought that when Apple launched its health app in 97 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: and allowed users to track more than a hundred data 98 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: points across like all of our health and well being 99 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: excluding period. Yeah do you think what do you think? Now? 100 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: I haven't read too much into that, like literally read 101 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: much about it, but um do you think that was 102 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: more a case of like, we don't have enough women 103 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: in tech, so there was no one in the room 104 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: to be like guys half the population periods? Or do 105 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: you think it was a case of they actively ignored 106 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: minstrel cycles. I think it was pure oversight because this 107 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,679 Speaker 1: came up in our conversation with Gina Helfric and Ashley 108 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: Doyle a while back, who ran this firm recruit Her 109 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: that folk uses on legitimately authentically diversifying tech companies because 110 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: this is the stuff that happens when you don't. But 111 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: even though Apple initially overlooked it, they have since added 112 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: that capability into the health app. But it kind of 113 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: didn't matter considering how there are forty thousand other fertility 114 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: and period tracking apps now available. Is that literal? Yeah? 115 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: Oh my god, how do you pick? I don't know. Well, 116 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: I would go with whatever stuff Mom never told you. 117 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: Listeners you so, I would trust our people. I would 118 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: go with Clue. We're not being paid to promote Clue. 119 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: But I'm just saying that's the one that listeners like 120 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: the most. But here's the thing, aside from the basic 121 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: utility of these apps and this technology, once we dig 122 00:07:54,880 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: into the industry and how period tracking has evolved from 123 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: this pen and paper thing that women in especially second 124 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: wave feminists were into doing and really didn't need any 125 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: technology for to today's period tracking landscape that has in 126 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: many ways monetized our menstrual cycles. We start to see 127 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff happening in here that have nothing 128 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: to do with our health and well being. Well, yeah, 129 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: they claimed to have a lot to do with it 130 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: and to help you be an advocate for your own 131 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: health and well being. But are they really just trying 132 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: to collect all of our data so that they can 133 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: monetize it or sell us more things. Yeah, exactly. So 134 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: let's give a quick little rundown of pen and paper 135 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: period tracking. This is before all of these twenty first 136 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: century period apps. Um, back when you've got the fabulous 137 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: vin diagram of second wave feminists and Catholics and where 138 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: they overlap. It's it's period tracking, Yeah, it's it's the 139 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: fertility awareness method, which feminists referred to as charting and 140 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: see kids, before we had our smartphones. To track your 141 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: period or or to chart, you would need a slide 142 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: rule and an advocates, an avocus, a telescope, and a 143 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: quill pen. Uh. Actually it was much simpler, um you 144 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: would you would essentially just have to be okay with 145 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: getting up close and personal with your body in the 146 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: same way that you have to when you use menstrul cups. 147 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: So all that's involved in fertility tracking or charting is 148 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: tracking your bleeding, of course, your vaginal secretions, your period flow, 149 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: your sex drive, energy, breast tenderness, general physical health, all 150 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: of the things that we are now in putting into 151 00:09:54,360 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: period tracking apps. And the fertility awareness method would which 152 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: is more colloquially known as the rhythm method. It's really 153 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,719 Speaker 1: all about taking your basil body temp every morning and 154 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: watching when it rises, because it spikes just a little 155 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: bit whenever you ovulate. And you also have to pay 156 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: attention to what's happened in your panties. Yeah, you have 157 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: to track your cervical fluid. And the description of this 158 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: it really makes a lot of people squeamish because it 159 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: talks about like the different consistencies and um, the one 160 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: point where I was like what, because I've never done 161 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: this before, nor have I even thought about doing it, 162 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: was like at one point in the month, you've got 163 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: to like see if between your fingers, like how long 164 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: like the string of mucus holds together, like at what 165 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: point it snaps? And I was like, I just like 166 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: kind of went off in my mind for a bit 167 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: because I literally had never even considered doing that. Well, 168 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: and what I had no idea about in terms of 169 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: why and the more mucus the cervical a fluid means 170 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: you're ovulating. Oh yeah, is because throughout the month, the 171 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: structure of your cervical fluid actually changes, which is why 172 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: it changes consistencies in order to better trap sperm. Oh 173 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: my god, I know. There was a description at one 174 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: point that was like, yeah, when it's at its thickest, 175 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: it's it's shaped like a lot of little tubes to 176 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: have the sperm just shoot shoot to the egg like 177 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: they're on some sort of express train to parenthood. I 178 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: had no idea all of that was going on in 179 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: my dirty underwear. I know. It gives new perspective to 180 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: that joke at the beginning of Jenny Slate's Obvious Child. 181 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,719 Speaker 1: You're just reading my mind. Listeners, if you haven't seen 182 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: Obvious Child, by the way, do yourself a favor. But 183 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: it's not just the basil, body temperature and cervical fluid 184 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: you have to watch out for with the fertility Awareness method. 185 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: You also have to pay attention to your service shape, 186 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: which when I first read that, I thought only my 187 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: doctor knows how to do that. But in fact, all 188 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: you need to do to monitor your cervix shape is 189 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: your middle finger. Give a middle finger to your cervix. 190 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: No fancy instruments are required. I mean you can have 191 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: a clarinet, oh, yes, if you wish. But with the 192 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: other hand you need you need to insert a finger 193 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,719 Speaker 1: into the vaginal canal. I love what a multitasker. You are, 194 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: just playing your clarinet checking your cervix. I always wanted 195 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: to play the clarinet, and now you can with charting. 196 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: But all you do is insert They suggest your middle 197 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: fingers since it was the longest into your vagina, and 198 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: feel for the texture of your cervix, and usually the 199 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: softer it is, the closer you are to ovulation. So 200 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: I can totally see why second waivers in particular, we're 201 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: all about this because it is about as body embracing 202 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: as you can get. Yeah, it can't be squeamish. You 203 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: are literally in touch with your body. Yeah. And this 204 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: goes back to well before women's lib fertility tracking actually 205 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: came Stateside in the nineteen thirties, after we had gotten 206 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: some detailed German and Japanese studies on menstrual cycle lengths, 207 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: which means that, yeah, it wasn't until the nineteen thirties 208 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: that we even knew how menstrual cycles worked across the calendar. Well, yeah, 209 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: because before that people just assume that we would go 210 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: out and how at the moon once a month and 211 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 1: then we would just get our periods. Right. If only 212 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: it were that simple, I know, so you can at 213 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: least plan a vacation. And I am curious to go 214 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: back and read more about its appeal in the nineteen 215 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: thirties because I wonder if it was also the economy 216 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: of having a more potentially reliable form of birth control, 217 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: which would be super important during the Great Depression exactly. Yeah. 218 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: And about thirty years later in the nineteen sixties, Um, 219 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: I mean the Boston Women's Health Collective and the book, 220 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,839 Speaker 1: and really the culture around the book Our Bodies Ourselves 221 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: was all about this charting stuff. I mean, it was 222 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: a way to empower women because clearly, since we didn't 223 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: know about clarissas, we didn't know about periods very much. Um, 224 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: clearly women had a need to be more in touch 225 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: with their bodies and this gave them that empowerment. Yeah. Well, 226 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: and around this time too, you still have laws prohibiting 227 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: unmarried women from purchasing birth control right, and of course 228 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: birth control is obviously kind of a sticking point for Catholics. 229 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: And in nineteen sixty eight you actually see Pope Paul 230 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: the Six green lighting this natural family planning, this charting, 231 00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: this fertility awareness method because you're not, you know, using 232 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: an outside force to prevent conceptions, so to speak, but 233 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: you are naturally just what you're timing your sex. Yeah, yeah, 234 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: so that you can have the procreative sex that you 235 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: want or the recreational sex that you want. It's not 236 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: like you're getting rid of the goalie. You're just only 237 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: going to play soccer on the days when the goalie 238 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: isn't there or is there. I don't know. It depends 239 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: on if you want to get pregnant or not. I 240 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: think that might have been one of the first sports 241 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: metaphors we've ever dropped on this podcast. Yeah, that's why 242 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: I fumbled, and we're even mixing sports. But welcome to 243 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: My Brain. And for listeners interested in learning a lot 244 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: more details about the method and reliability of the so 245 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: called rhythm method, we have a whole podcast episode devoted 246 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: to that. So We're not going to get into the 247 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: nitty gritty here. You can go back and listen to 248 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: does the rhythm method work and get all the info 249 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: you need. But we did want to quickly mention that 250 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: the rhythm method that went viral in two thousand seven 251 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: after this German study was published finding a point six 252 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: percent pregnancy rate for women who practiced perfect fertility awareness tracking. 253 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: And that perfect is the key word. I mean, same 254 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: with using the pill, for instance, that your percentages of 255 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: not getting pregnant depend on perfect use versus you know, 256 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: normal human person use. So all of us to say 257 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: that women and people who men straight across the spectrum 258 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: have been tracking their own periods and fertility for almost 259 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: a century now, yeah, And I mean this whole technological 260 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 1: bent around periods was called way back in the day. 261 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: And I'd say, what way back in the day? And 262 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 1: I mean, but in biochemist and oral contraceptive co creator 263 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: Carl Gerossie published this article in Science magazine that basically 264 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 1: predicted the end of what he had helped create synthetic 265 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: birth control hormones, because he was arguing women one of 266 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: these days would be able to track their blood hormone 267 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 1: levels and thus their fertility with a simple cheek swab. 268 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: You you take a swab of the cheek, you see 269 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: how the hormones are doing. You go out and you 270 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: howl at the moon, and you know you're getting your period. 271 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: And I'm so curious to know what Dr Gerassi would 272 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: think about this period and fertility fertility tracking industry today 273 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: because we obviously aren't to the cheek swab stage, partly 274 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: because it's not really in pharmaceutical companies best interests, right, 275 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: But it's interesting because we're clearly at the cheek swab 276 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,239 Speaker 1: stage for other massive things in our lives, like you know, 277 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: twenty three in me or the ancestry dot com DNA 278 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: testing stuff where I mean there was an article about 279 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: a girl who literally found her biological father through doing 280 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 1: um one of those like twenty three in me cheek swabs. 281 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: So like we're there, it's just a matter of exactly, um, 282 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: is the pharmaceutical industry going to continue to play goalie 283 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: to refer to an earlier sports metaphor. I appreciate you 284 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: bringing that full circle, which is not a sport, but 285 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: it's like hoping. Yeah, so we're gonna take a quick 286 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: break and when we come back. We're going to talk 287 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: about why Silicon Valley investors want to get in that goal, 288 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: so to speak, alongside those parmaceutical companies, and whether these 289 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: period tracking apps are really just monetizing our menzies. So 290 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 1: when you first start reading all of these trend pieces 291 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 1: and think pieces about period tracker apps, menstrual cycle apps, 292 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: pregnancy apps, I mean, it sounds pretty cool, you know. 293 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: It does sound like a great way for women and 294 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: their partners to actively be able to be in touch 295 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: with their health, whether the goal is to get pregnant 296 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: or to stay not pregnant. Um And And you know, 297 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: when I'm first reading all of these articles that Kristen 298 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: and I were swapping, I was thinking, yeah, like this 299 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: is this is really cool, this is great, Like it's 300 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: it is a fitbit, you know, for your ovaries or whatever. 301 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 1: But the more you read, the more you read these pieces, 302 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: and the more you pay attention to who is being interviewed, 303 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: who is doing the speaking, who's doing the innovating, the fundraising, 304 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: the fund giving, you start to realize, oh, this is 305 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: a tale as old as time. You know, Kristen and 306 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: I have done so many episodes you know, teaching for example, 307 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: the history of of the gendering of teaching or librarians, 308 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: where a field was pretty feminine or female dominated until 309 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: men figured out a way to professionalize and monetize it. 310 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: And I don't mean to to, you know, take a 311 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: dump on these these tech bros who are creating these 312 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: apps for women and their partners to use, but it 313 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: is something to keep in mind as you discuss the 314 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: technology around women's bodies well. And also to something to 315 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: keep in mind is that the one in big standout 316 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: UM from the all of the guys who are getting 317 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: involved with these period tracking apps is Clue, which was 318 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: developed by um, a German software developer named to Ten. 319 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: And what I also paid attention to you as we 320 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 1: were reading was how the guys framed these products versus 321 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: how Ten framed these products, because you do see a 322 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: bit of a difference understandably because Ten gets a period 323 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: presumably maybe she has now you do too, I don't know, Um, 324 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: So there were just some very unexpected gendered patterns and 325 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: how these are promoted, and also some red flags about 326 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: what this is really monetizing, what the real motivation is, 327 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: because it's no surprise that venture capitalist would toss some 328 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: money at this technology, because who does not like the 329 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: buzzy ring of a fitbit for your period? Okay, show 330 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: it to me. And also by women around the world 331 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: will drop more than twenty three billion dollars on contraceptives 332 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: and Americans already spend five billion dollars annually un assisted 333 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: reproductive technology. And that's coming from study from Transparency Market Research, 334 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: which was cited in a terrific long read all about 335 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: period tracking technology in The Guardian by Moira Weigel. Yeah, 336 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 1: it was a great overview of all of this, and 337 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, those numbers are staggering and and the 338 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: whole thing about assisted reproductive technology is something that comes 339 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: up over and over again with a lot of these 340 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: uh guys and gals in the text scene saying, look, 341 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: this is an information problem. That was one guy's quote 342 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: that if only we knew more about how women's cycles 343 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: functioned and where their cycles intersected with other health issues, 344 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: maybe we wouldn't have to spend so much time and 345 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: money getting fertility treatments. Maybe we could learn about underlying problems. 346 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: And I'm going to come back to that information problem 347 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: quote because it stopped me in my tracks. Oh yeah, 348 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: when we were reading for this um, but that was 349 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: a set in two thousand thirteen. But we have to 350 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: go back a year to two thousand twelve, when really 351 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: all of this started happening. These period tracker apps really 352 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: started to grab attention, not only in the app store 353 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: but also in tech media. So in kindera really seems 354 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: to be the first big fertility and period tracking app 355 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: on the market, and it was concepted by a guy 356 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: named Will Sachs and his girlfriend termed wife Katie Bicknell, 357 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: who had been previously using the Fertility Awareness method instead 358 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: of birth control medications in two thousand nine. So they 359 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: start dating and he's like, maybe should go on birth 360 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: control and she's like, maybe you should get a vasectomy 361 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: because I'm not into all of this hormonal stuff. I 362 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: don't mind checking my own cervical fluid and basil body temperature. 363 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: So they realized that maybe this is something that technology 364 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: could disrupt. But you know where where as they were 365 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: coming at it from the angle of we don't want 366 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: to get pregnant right now, we want to use this 367 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: natural way to prevent pregnancy. Once they launched their app, 368 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: they realize that a majority of people who were flocking 369 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: to it, we're using it to get pregnant, to to 370 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: better nail down those times of the month when they 371 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: were most fertile. Which that's even better if you're going 372 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: to pitch this to a group of investors. Is because 373 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: your potential market just exponentially increase, probably not exponentially. There 374 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: is a limit, I'm sure to the number of uterus 375 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: is that you can assist, but the market is much 376 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: bigger when you fold that into it. So what happens 377 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: with Sacks and Bicknell is they move out to Boulder, 378 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: where Sacks attracts the tech Stars founder Brad Feld and 379 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: Felled and Sacks really start to develop this idea. This 380 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: is where the whole fitbit for your period tagline comes in. 381 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 1: And as they're developing the story, Sacks and his girlfriend 382 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: turned wife Katie Bicknell start pitching it so that they 383 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: can drum up some venture capital. And this is where 384 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: things really start to get interesting because Katie Bitnell, in particular, 385 00:25:53,640 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: not Will Sacks, encountered some difficulties talking about periods and 386 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: fertility tracking two rooms usually full of very rich men 387 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: who were kind of squipt out. Yeah, I mean she 388 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: She told The Guardian that these investors were quote freaked 389 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: out when she was there in front of them talking 390 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: about blood and mucus. She even she even impersonated one 391 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: of the guys by doing a bro grunt as his 392 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: reaction to what she was talking about. But the thing is, 393 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: she said, yeah, I mean, you know, you've got the 394 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: stereotype of the of the squipt out, older rich dude 395 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: who doesn't want to hear about periods and mucus. But 396 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: she said, you know, the older female investors were even 397 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: more uncomfortable than their male counterparts. Yeah, she said, when 398 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: women were in the room, they tended to quote just 399 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: tune out. So I mean some fascinating dynamics happening in 400 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,959 Speaker 1: that room that we could also do a whole podcast 401 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: on UM. But at right out of the gate, there's 402 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: a taboo that these apps are potentially busting. And also 403 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: this resistance, at least anecdotally to a woman selling a 404 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: product for a woman's mentional cycle and fertility. And I 405 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: say that because in two thousand thirteen, Bicknell ended up 406 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: leaving Kendera completely in order to save her marriage to 407 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: Will Sacks because it was just creating too much conflict. 408 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,239 Speaker 1: So she leaves Sacks, takes over and they find a 409 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,199 Speaker 1: woman to replace Bicknell. While all of this is happening, 410 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: a guy named Max Levchin, who co founded PayPal, also 411 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: starts thinking this a whole fertility tracking thing could be 412 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,719 Speaker 1: a real gold mine, so he launches this buzzy glow 413 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: app that raised wait for it, twenty three million dollars 414 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: in venture capital in two years. Now. Obviously, the someone 415 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: who founded PayPal is gonna walk into venture capital investment 416 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: room with more cash at than Katie Bicknell or Will 417 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,719 Speaker 1: Sacks who were just starting out. Oh yeah, I mean, 418 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: I used PayPal just last night, so I use it 419 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: all the time. It's terrific. But it made me instantly 420 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: wonder whether this is also a reflection of the difference 421 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 1: of a guy talking to other guys about this product 422 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: that can make the money that also happens to deal 423 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: with women's periods, versus a woman standing there talking about 424 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: blood and mucus to a group of men and women 425 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: who are like, oh my god, this is the last 426 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: thing I want to see. This is a boys club 427 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: and a woman is in here talking about a menstrual 428 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: app and just putting us even more into a pink box. 429 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: I'm kind of projecting but this is just everything that 430 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: was going through my head as I was reading this, 431 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: and all Max was the one who when they announced 432 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: the Glow app at the All Things deconference, described for 433 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: infertility as an information problem. Yeah, that's a really sensitive 434 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: way to approach infertility for the millions of people who 435 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: are affected by it. I mean, it makes total sense 436 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: to frame it that way to the crowd sitting at 437 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: an in group tech conference. But that's when I was like, oh, 438 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: wait a minute, whoa, they are monetizing our wounds. I mean, granted, 439 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: glow is free, but Glow is making money from the 440 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: data that we are putting into it. Well sure, And 441 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: I mean, whoever you are, whatever, you're trying to make 442 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: money on, one of your basic baseline strategies is how 443 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: do I attract people who are not currently you know, 444 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: fill in the blank using this thing, reporting this thing, 445 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: who's not reached by this market already. And so if 446 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: you're a tech guy and it's like who what is 447 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: not what has not been technified yet? What can we disrupt? 448 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: Let's disrupt infertility? Yeah, I mean that really seems to 449 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: be what the big pitch is. And I mean we're 450 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: not saying that everybody's motives here are bad, or or 451 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: that we we disagree with the idea of making money 452 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: off of this idea. But the thing is, like, I 453 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: think there is a different approach when you're when you're 454 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: looking at it as here a bunch of humans we 455 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: need to help, versus like we can make ba jillions 456 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: of dollars, right. And it's also reminiscent to me of 457 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: conversations we've had about empower tizing and using female empowerment 458 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: and feminist e vibes and outright slogans to sell products. 459 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 1: It feel similar to suggesting that infertility can be solved 460 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: simply by logging your data into an app. It just 461 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: seems highly reductive and offering a mighty big promise to 462 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: people and couples who are dealing with very intense and 463 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: sometimes emotionally grueling and sometimes physically exhausting issue. Yeah. And 464 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: then of course there is the question I mean you 465 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: mentioned data. I mean there is the question of like, 466 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,719 Speaker 1: how aware if if you are someone struggling with infertility 467 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: and you're looking at this app as the solution to 468 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: your problem or a potential solution, um, are you aware 469 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: of the fact that they're data mining you? Are you 470 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: immune to it because you've been on Facebook for so 471 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: long and you just assume nothing's private anymore. I mean, 472 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: there is the very great potential that having this population 473 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: of of people on these apps will benefit science and 474 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: that perhaps it will pull back the curtain on intersections 475 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: of health issues and fertility. Um, but kind of in 476 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: the meantime things look a little a little shady, absolutely, 477 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: because I mean, we need to address precisely how these 478 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: are being monetized because a lot of times these apps 479 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: are free, so wonderful, So so why would we have 480 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: a problem with someone providing a free resource for us? Well, 481 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: because nothing's really free. There's no such thing as a 482 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: free lunch in Silicon Valley, I'm assuming unless you're at Google, right, 483 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: don't they have like really nice lunches. So yeah, But 484 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: there's this profit model split between Candera and Globe that's 485 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: really interesting. Where Candera is focused on making money by 486 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: building product, so they have something called Wink, which is 487 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: a basil body temperature sensor that you can buy that 488 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: will help you more closely monitor your fertility. Whereas Glow 489 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: made money by setting up a partnership with Walgrains, where 490 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: it's like, Hey, we're gonna direct our users toward you, 491 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: and you can direct your you know, pharmaceutical customers towards us, 492 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: a little bit of quid pro quo. Not to mention 493 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: that people's data is worth everything these days. I mean, 494 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: an email list alone can get you a check from 495 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: a VC firm. Not to mention all of the different 496 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: types of data. I mean, when I was slipping through 497 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: clue at the top of the podcast, they were asking 498 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: me for my height and my weight and my birthday 499 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: and everything. You know, and if someone knows my height, 500 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: they know everything. Caroline. But Glow in particular stood out 501 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: from Candera when it was launched because it asked about 502 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: your sex life, about out sex positions, about all sorts 503 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: of preferences and lifestyle factors that might in some way 504 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:13,280 Speaker 1: tangentially relate to your fertility um. And it also jumped 505 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: out to me that Kendera's Will Sacks said, quote, right 506 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: now people have relationships with doctors. In the future, it 507 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 1: will be with a brand. So if that's not like 508 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 1: monetizing our bodies, I don't really know what is. Yeah. 509 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 1: I that that quote also brought me to a screeching 510 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,319 Speaker 1: halt because I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no 511 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: no no wait wait wait, that's not the direction we 512 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: want to go. I mean, as often as Kristen and 513 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 1: I preach like talking to your doctor being an advocate 514 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: for your health. Um, you know, we talk about how 515 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: long it takes for women to find a diagnosis for 516 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: things like endometrius is, and how important it is to 517 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: be an advocate and be aware of your own health. 518 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: For this guy to be saying that, you know, doctors 519 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: so so much about the doctor as it is about 520 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: the brand, Like you figure out your own health at 521 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: home with all of these apps and gadgets, and then 522 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: you know a doctor can just write a prescription. Yeah. 523 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: I mean it's sort of a new form of privatizing 524 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: personal health. Or it's like, I know, I don't need 525 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,280 Speaker 1: to go to the doctor. I have my Wink basil 526 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,399 Speaker 1: body temperature sensor, and you know, Wink knows so much 527 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 1: about me, they have so much data. Then they can 528 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: take that data and tell me whether I should be 529 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: you know, tested for a thyroid disorder as well, or 530 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: something else that could be possibly going on. Right, which 531 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: is why I cannot wait to hear from medical professionals 532 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: about this topic in general, but specifically about the sort 533 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 1: of unspoken or in this case like explicitly stated idea 534 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,399 Speaker 1: of taking medicine out of the hands of doctors and 535 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: and putting it in your hands as the consumer as 536 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: a product. Well and assuming that data is as effective 537 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: as a doctor. Right. But at least from what we read, 538 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: that's not really a sentiment that you hear so much 539 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:11,720 Speaker 1: from the Berlin developer at to ten who in launched Clue, 540 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: the Clue app, which intentionally, you know, marketed itself as 541 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,879 Speaker 1: not a pink quashed app, you know, really something that 542 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: is practical for women who just want to, like you said, 543 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: be an advocate for their own health. And it was 544 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: super successful. By the end of alone, it attracted two 545 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: point five million users in one hundred eighty countries um. 546 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: And because of the popularity of Clue and these other apps. 547 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: This leads us to that New York Times piece that 548 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: kicked off our conversation about weather. These period and fertility 549 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 1: tracking apps are changing our girl culture. Yeah, I mean 550 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: the New York Times think so. Writing about this, they 551 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,280 Speaker 1: said that these apps have helped shift attitudes. Uh, they've 552 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: assigned cute icons to once unmentionables like heavy flow, maxi 553 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: pads and period pimples. Um. They've helped women get in 554 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: touch with not only when the period is do, but 555 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 1: why it's late and why she might be feeling blue. 556 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: Which I mean, yeah, that's that's good, that's positive, that's 557 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: absolutely great. Get in touch with your bodies. UM. But 558 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: I will side eye at assigning cute icons to once 559 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: unmentionables being a culture shift because that sounds like the 560 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:43,879 Speaker 1: same kind of thing as maxipad commercials. Having to use 561 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: the blue liquid right, or you know, running through a 562 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,879 Speaker 1: field with balloons is like feeling liberated. Not to say 563 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: that we need like a realistic rendering of bloody tampon 564 00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: as our iconography. UM, but I think it's more about 565 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: our conversations around it than emojis. UM. And the thing is, 566 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,879 Speaker 1: there are a lot of women who use these that 567 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: do derive a sense of empowerment from it. UM. The 568 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: New York Times interviewed developer in San Francisco who doesn't 569 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: work on these period apps. She has just been using 570 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 1: them for a long time, and she said something that 571 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: jumped out to both Caroline and me. Quote, when you 572 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: see a technology that someone has developed specifically for you 573 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: as a woman, it really legitimizes talking about your periods 574 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: and thinking about them. And then she goes on to say, how, um, 575 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: if we as a society encourage women to check on 576 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: their periods, then we're giving permission to talk about it. 577 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: And I agree, And I also ask who is giving 578 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: a set permission? Who is making this technology legitimizing our periods? 579 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: Because they based on everything that we've seen so far, 580 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: i'd atend include aside, it's a lot of men. Yeah, 581 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,760 Speaker 1: and and my question is what are you waiting for 582 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: or what were you waiting for? Why did you view 583 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 1: your period is not legitimate before, like not a legitimate 584 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: health concern or or aspect of your life? Well, and 585 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: does it take technology created by men to legitimize a 586 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: biologically female process? I mean, it's interesting though, when you 587 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: pull way back and look at this as an element 588 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,879 Speaker 1: of our history in terms of it took a man 589 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: to quote unquote discover the clitteress. It took a man 590 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: or groups of men to quote unquote like discover the 591 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: period and menstrual process. So this seems to me to 592 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 1: be another element of that of women being like, oh, 593 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 1: thank you men for allow in us to have hashtag 594 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: period pride right, And I'm so glad you mentioned period 595 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:10,800 Speaker 1: pride because to me, the whole suggestion of period tracking 596 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: apps changing girl culture being the catalyst for that change 597 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: is mistaking correlation for causation, because if you go back 598 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 1: and listen to as I suggest you do, dear listeners, 599 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: are episode all about period pride and how women today 600 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 1: are posting photos of blood stained sheets on Instagram as 601 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: a form of protest live tweeting their periods. Especially to 602 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:48,800 Speaker 1: Mike Pitts, uh Newsweek publishing cover stories on tampon access 603 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: and the de stigmatizing of periods that has nothing to 604 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: do with period tracker apps. To meet. Period tracker apps 605 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,240 Speaker 1: in our excitement around them are part of I think 606 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: the is uh cultural shift that women initiated this crimson wave, 607 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 1: you know, helped along by things like Hello Flows, viral 608 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 1: commercial featuring girls saying things like vagina and menstruation and 609 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: ps that company was founded by a woman. So I 610 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 1: I just think that we don't need to lose sight 611 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,320 Speaker 1: of all of the things that we've done offline to 612 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: push menstruation into the mainstream. And I'm glad that we 613 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: have the technology there to assist us in learning even 614 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,919 Speaker 1: more about it and getting even more comfortable with it. Yeah, 615 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: but I mean, speaking of technology, there was a horrifying 616 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: article horrifying and enlightening. I think my brain almost started 617 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: to combine those words from consumer reports that found that 618 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: there was this massive security loophole in the Glow interface. 619 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,359 Speaker 1: UM and Glow I mean immediately took ups to fix it. 620 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: They sent out a new version of the app that 621 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: you could download. UM. But it goes back to, like, 622 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: you know, all of these things are meant to not 623 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: only make money for their developers, but also you know, 624 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,839 Speaker 1: to put people in touch with their bodies, to help 625 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 1: couples get or not get pregnant or whatever, UM, to 626 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: help trans men understand when their periods are coming so 627 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: they can be better prepared. UM. But you can't ignore 628 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: issues of security flaws, especially when UM with some of 629 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:39,720 Speaker 1: these apps, it's almost too easy for like an ex partner, 630 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: for instance, to view your data right UM, and especially 631 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 1: if that data involves things like the sex that you're 632 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,879 Speaker 1: having and other lifestyle factors where you are. UM, that 633 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,359 Speaker 1: could turn very problematic very quickly. Because you know, one 634 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 1: attractive feature of a lot of these apps, Light, Glow 635 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 1: and Clue is that you can sync up so to 636 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: speak with Yeah, your friend if you want to do that. 637 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: But especially for people who are trying to get pregnant 638 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: or couples who are trying to not get pregnant, you 639 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: can sort of track fertility throughout the month together, which 640 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,759 Speaker 1: is great. I also like that they are inviting partners 641 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:29,040 Speaker 1: into this process as well, because especially if we're talking 642 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 1: about dude partners. Yes, you do need to be more 643 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: familiar with the menstrual process and be more comfortable, um 644 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 1: with all of that. But if you're gonna use these apps, 645 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: you need to read the privacy agreements because fertility apps 646 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: and other like health apps like the fitbit are not 647 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: covered under hippah, so apps have a lot more liberty 648 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: to use and of course monetize your healthcare and lifestyle data. Right. Yeah, 649 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: So you can't get a PayPal co founder going to 650 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,000 Speaker 1: your hospital and saying, hey, for every woman who walks 651 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,239 Speaker 1: in these doors, could I get her her data on 652 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: her heightweight, period stuff, pregnancy stuff whatever. They'd be like, 653 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:18,879 Speaker 1: who get out securiting? But he can just pull all 654 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: of that stuff into a little data basket from the 655 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: app and and use it however he chooses and that 656 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: data is especially attractive, um if it's coming from people 657 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: who are trying to get pregnant, because that is catinet 658 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,880 Speaker 1: for advertisers, because people who are trying to get pregnant 659 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: are about to buy a lot of stuff. So it's 660 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 1: concerning to me also that right now the FDAs policy 661 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,879 Speaker 1: for all of this is just exercising quote unquote discretion 662 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 1: on pursuing privacy violations. But it's like, if this is 663 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,760 Speaker 1: the future, if this is the future of health, if 664 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: brands are replacing our doctors, like Will Sachs thinks they 665 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:11,319 Speaker 1: will Hippa needs to hop on board fast hippity hop, 666 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: hip hippity hop over there, hip hop. And in the meantime, 667 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,880 Speaker 1: for people who are using these apps right now, especially 668 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 1: to get pregnant, there's a question of are they really effective? 669 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,759 Speaker 1: I mean, is Max love Chin correct and saying that 670 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:34,279 Speaker 1: infertility is simply an information product because Glow now touts 671 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 1: one hundred fifty thousand pregnancies resulting from using their app rigorously. 672 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: But that again goes back to the correlation versus causation thing. 673 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,800 Speaker 1: You know, are these pregnancy as a result of people 674 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: taking taking their health in both hands and shaking it 675 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 1: by the shoulders and saying we look get pregnant health, 676 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 1: I will I will find you um or is that 677 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 1: just are the two things just correlated? Right? Because Wired 678 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:15,959 Speaker 1: Magazine actually went back and unpacked the study that came 679 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 1: to that one number and found that the data only 680 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: control for age. So you have a lot of other 681 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,840 Speaker 1: factors that contribute to this, well, a lot of other factors, 682 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:34,799 Speaker 1: but also the idea of like, maybe the number of 683 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 1: pregnancies is so high because the people who already want 684 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 1: to get pregnant are getting these apps and using them right, 685 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: and they're probably doing everything in the book that you 686 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:51,040 Speaker 1: can possibly do to promote pregnancy. In the words of 687 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,719 Speaker 1: one into chronologists that Wired talk to, really what might 688 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: be going on is Glow is measuring our motivation to 689 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:05,239 Speaker 1: conceive rather than actually helping you to conceive. So I'm 690 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 1: really curious to hear from people on that because this 691 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 1: is an issue where you've got the users who are 692 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 1: interacting with these apps every day, multiple times a day, 693 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: and you know, kind of having these apps become a 694 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 1: part of their life. But then you also have tech 695 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,840 Speaker 1: developers influencing things, and then you also have the medical 696 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: side of it. So I'm hoping that we'll hear from 697 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: people from all of these perspectives. Um, but before we go, 698 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,280 Speaker 1: we do want to emphasize that if you aren't trying 699 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: to get pregnant, if you're trying to not get pregnant, 700 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: I should say this is not a replacement for birth 701 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,960 Speaker 1: control and contraception. Yeah, nor is it a replacement for 702 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,919 Speaker 1: U safe sex practices as well. Exactly. There was even 703 00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:00,080 Speaker 1: a study published in the Journal of the America and 704 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:05,920 Speaker 1: Board a Family Medicine which analyzed a whole bunch of 705 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,239 Speaker 1: these apps and found that all but a couple of 706 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,839 Speaker 1: them follow what they cite as evidence based fertility awareness 707 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:18,279 Speaker 1: methods and relying solely on an app to prevent pregnancy 708 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:23,760 Speaker 1: quote may not be sufficient. So basically, like this is helpful, 709 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:29,160 Speaker 1: like use them, but don't stop what you're already doing 710 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:35,680 Speaker 1: to prevent pregnancy. So for me, like this aroused way 711 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,879 Speaker 1: more skepticism than I thought it would. Um. I thought 712 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 1: that we were going to, you know, just have this fun, 713 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,400 Speaker 1: breezy conversation about oh, this new technology. Oh clue, that 714 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 1: sounds fun. There's so many layers, Well, there are so 715 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,319 Speaker 1: many layers, and it's also just scary to me that 716 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: there are about forty thousand of these apps out there. 717 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: I'd feel much better if like the A M A 718 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:02,240 Speaker 1: came along and was like, here is a sanctioned fertility app, 719 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:07,640 Speaker 1: or are sanctioned birth control app? Um, But instead you 720 00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,480 Speaker 1: have all of these little like people's you know, side 721 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,879 Speaker 1: project apps popping up in the app store, many of which, 722 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 1: as you just said, aren't even necessarily using that evidence 723 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:24,319 Speaker 1: based fertility awareness method. And there are also some that 724 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:29,080 Speaker 1: don't even have any privacy policy agreements. So buyer beware 725 00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 1: or download or beware because they're usually free. Because, for example, 726 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:38,360 Speaker 1: in a Financial Times investigation found uh the super popular 727 00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:42,359 Speaker 1: period tracker light app just straight up with sharing data 728 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 1: with third parties. So um, it's it's a potentially really 729 00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:53,040 Speaker 1: powerful tool, um, but by no means is it perfect 730 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,840 Speaker 1: at this point? So listeners, um, did we totally just 731 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:01,080 Speaker 1: debbie down your favorite period tracker app? Um? I, for one, 732 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:07,320 Speaker 1: UH would recommend Clue because I'd attend is a female 733 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,879 Speaker 1: indie rad stem woman and I would like to put 734 00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:17,040 Speaker 1: my monetized uterus money in her pocket. So I'm sure 735 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,640 Speaker 1: you'll have lots to say about this mom stuff at 736 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is our email address. Um. Also, 737 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,200 Speaker 1: if you have any recommendations for your favor period app, 738 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,319 Speaker 1: please let us know. You can also tweet us that 739 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,839 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or leave us a message over 740 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,360 Speaker 1: on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages to 741 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,520 Speaker 1: share with you when we come right back from a 742 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:45,480 Speaker 1: quick break. Well, I have a letter here from Sandy 743 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:51,560 Speaker 1: in response to our episode on women and heroin and uh. 744 00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,120 Speaker 1: Sandy said, I would love to thank you for talking 745 00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,719 Speaker 1: about this. It's been ignored for so long, and I'm 746 00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,320 Speaker 1: so glad that you, as well as many other news outlets, 747 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,040 Speaker 1: are acknowledging this is an issue. I work at a 748 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,000 Speaker 1: methodone clinic and I wanted to share some insight. I 749 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,000 Speaker 1: know you mentioned methodone can be addictive, and I wanted 750 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,600 Speaker 1: to let you know that though you can become physically 751 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,240 Speaker 1: dependent on methodone, like a diabetic is dependent on insulin, 752 00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,920 Speaker 1: it is not addictive. The commonly accepted definition of addiction 753 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 1: is it's defined as a chronic, relapsing brain disease that 754 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 1: is characterized by compulsive drugs seeking and use despite harmful consequences. 755 00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,320 Speaker 1: This is a common misconception and many people think that 756 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,200 Speaker 1: dependence and addiction are the same thing when they are not. 757 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,960 Speaker 1: As a Methodone clinic nurse and an advocate of my clients, 758 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,120 Speaker 1: I wish to let you know that there is a difference, 759 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:44,319 Speaker 1: and this misconception leads many away from seeking treatment. We 760 00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,800 Speaker 1: treat so many people who have other medical issues HIV 761 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,439 Speaker 1: and hepatitis C, who without methodone could not get off 762 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,400 Speaker 1: of other opiates, reduce health risks and seek care for 763 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,600 Speaker 1: current problems. Methodone allows our patients to work and live 764 00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,160 Speaker 1: a quote unquote normal life. There are, of course, people 765 00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,759 Speaker 1: who abuse all systems, but I wish this would not 766 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,279 Speaker 1: be a deterrent to the whole system that can do 767 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,520 Speaker 1: good for so many. Again, I just wish to educate, 768 00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,920 Speaker 1: not chastise. I love you guys, and this is a 769 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,480 Speaker 1: very common misconception. Thank you so much for the hard work, 770 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,839 Speaker 1: and Sandy, thank you for the very thoughtful feedback. So 771 00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Claire also about that 772 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,440 Speaker 1: episode on women and Heroin and Claire rights. I'm currently 773 00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,680 Speaker 1: pursuing my Master of Social Work at the University of 774 00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:34,000 Speaker 1: Illinois and I'm in the internship portion right now. I 775 00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,319 Speaker 1: interned at a substance abuse treatment facility where I see 776 00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,120 Speaker 1: the way that trauma and adequate mental health services and 777 00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,600 Speaker 1: substance use collide. Since I work in a nonprofit, most 778 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,440 Speaker 1: of our clients are on Medicaid, and I've been referred 779 00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:50,680 Speaker 1: in by parole probation, de facts or drug CORP. I 780 00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,440 Speaker 1: really appreciated how well you handle the discussion about addiction 781 00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,640 Speaker 1: and substance use. Honestly, I don't love working within the 782 00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,320 Speaker 1: framework of addiction because so much of the treatment is 783 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,040 Speaker 1: focused on the substance use rather than talking about the 784 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:06,640 Speaker 1: other factors that have led to substance use. Statistically, a 785 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,960 Speaker 1: huge portion of individuals that struggle with substance use also 786 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,799 Speaker 1: have other comorbid disorders. However, I find there are very 787 00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,080 Speaker 1: few clients who don't have some kind of trauma or 788 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,600 Speaker 1: pain that has led them to begin to use in 789 00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,160 Speaker 1: an unhealthy way. There are only a few clients who 790 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,960 Speaker 1: would tell you that they use because it was fun, 791 00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,880 Speaker 1: and who are telling you the truth. Most of our 792 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:33,400 Speaker 1: clients are dealing with mental disorders, trauma, history, poverty, community violence, 793 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:36,760 Speaker 1: justina a few things. It's hard, as a new member 794 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 1: of the treatment team to work with individuals who have 795 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 1: become so numb to these facts about our clients that 796 00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,440 Speaker 1: they fail to see how much they can, can and 797 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,879 Speaker 1: do contribute to a client's pattern of use, and yet 798 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:52,000 Speaker 1: none of these circumstances or comorbidities are excuse enough for 799 00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,239 Speaker 1: a client to keep using. The clients we actually have 800 00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:59,680 Speaker 1: the greatest success with are those referred by defacts, especially 801 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:04,000 Speaker 1: the women. They're usually incredibly committed to getting their children back, 802 00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,400 Speaker 1: which helps them fight through treatment and all of the 803 00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:10,120 Speaker 1: appointments they have to keep while maintaining an employment. I 804 00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,680 Speaker 1: was thrilled to hear about the inpatient facility in Iowa 805 00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,240 Speaker 1: that allowed women to bring their children and still access 806 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,840 Speaker 1: that level of care. I also wanted to thank you 807 00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:19,880 Speaker 1: for your episode on the Welfare Queen. It was a 808 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,719 Speaker 1: nice refresher on social work policy my favorite class, and 809 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,920 Speaker 1: I know my professor is directing her current students to 810 00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,240 Speaker 1: listen as a way to study for the mid term. 811 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,359 Speaker 1: Very cool. Public assistance and welfare not the same, as 812 00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:35,160 Speaker 1: public assistance is an umbrella term to refer to any 813 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,880 Speaker 1: aid coming from the government, which includes housing, snap, et cetera. 814 00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,600 Speaker 1: Looking forward to the future episode on women in social work, 815 00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,560 Speaker 1: please all caps touch on the fact that we don't 816 00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:49,760 Speaker 1: get paid very much because we are also given good karma. 817 00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,720 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're definitely gonna have to come back to 818 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,600 Speaker 1: look at women in social work because there is a 819 00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,520 Speaker 1: lot there to discuss. So thanks for kicking off that 820 00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:03,080 Speaker 1: convert station, Claire and sharing your insights, and thanks to 821 00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:06,280 Speaker 1: everybody who's written into us. Mom stuff at how stuff 822 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,919 Speaker 1: works dot com is our email address and for links 823 00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:10,799 Speaker 1: to all of our social media as well as all 824 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:14,480 Speaker 1: of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with our sources so 825 00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,720 Speaker 1: you can learn even more about period tracking apps. Head 826 00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:25,959 Speaker 1: on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com 827 00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,440 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 828 00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:37,480 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com