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Speaker 1: On the Bechde Cast, The questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and

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Speaker 1: Beast start changing it with.

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Speaker 2: The Bechdel cast. Hey, Jamie, Heyklin.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, that's mother Caitlin to you.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, I'm sorry, I'm I'm definitely not a mother.

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Speaker 3: Also, no, no, yeah, it's it's in a way. We're

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Speaker 3: all mothers and we're all here at this dance academy and.

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Speaker 2: Something something World War two, it's something something Cold War,

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Speaker 2: and it's all feeling kind of profound, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: And we're witches. Surprise.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's not really a surprise. You figured that

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Speaker 2: out pretty early.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, true.

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Speaker 2: The real question is why does Tilda Swinton look like

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Speaker 2: the six Flags guy when she's playing the I could

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Speaker 2: I could not. I guess I went into the movie

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Speaker 2: knowing that she plays the psychologist, which great, But why

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Speaker 2: does she look like the six Flags guy?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 3: She does as the psychologist? Or yes, yeah, I think

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Speaker 3: she looks more like the Six Flags guy for that

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Speaker 3: character who doesn't speak and stebs herself in the neck.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's true because that has the glasses element. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: she's so versatile. That is Till the Swinton in that

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Speaker 2: role too, right, Yes, that one I think is more

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Speaker 2: obviously Till the Swinton. That would be an interesting piece

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Speaker 2: of clickbait to read is Till the Swinton characters ranked

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Speaker 2: by how much they look like the Six Flags guy. Sure, sure,

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Speaker 2: she should play the Six Flags guy in a biopic.

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Speaker 3: Oh I'm not mad about it. Okay, hello, and welcome

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Speaker 3: to the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that didn't pass.

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Speaker 3: It well, yeah, six Flags, But I think if if

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Speaker 3: you're talking about the Six Flags Guy as played by Till.

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Speaker 2: The Swinton, I think it does. But she's playing a

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Speaker 2: male character. I don't know. Six Flags Guy, tricky. Let's

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Speaker 2: get semantic right at the beginning of the show. I

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Speaker 2: think that's that would really hook in listeners. It's just

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Speaker 2: like Dakota Johnson hooks her vagina question mark. We'll get

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Speaker 2: into that later.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, the hooks. Yeah. Anyway, this is the

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Speaker 3: Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlyn Derante, my.

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Speaker 2: Name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where

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Speaker 2: we look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist

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Speaker 2: lens using the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point

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Speaker 2: for discussion. But Kitlin, what is that?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's just a media metric created by queer cartoonist

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Speaker 3: Allison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test, originally appearing

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Speaker 3: in Alison Bechdel's comic Dikes to Watch out For in

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Speaker 3: the eighties as a bit as a goof. It's since

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Speaker 3: been used as a popular media metric by people such

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Speaker 3: as us. But again, we only use it as a

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Speaker 3: jumping off point. Our version of the test is that

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Speaker 3: two people of a marginalized gender must speak to each

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Speaker 3: other about something other than a man, specifically the Six

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Speaker 3: Flags guy, for two lines of dialogue or more preferably,

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Speaker 3: some narratively substantial conversation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. A lot of movies don't pass. This one does,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, you can just sort of wash

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Speaker 2: your hands of wondering. Passes very early and consistently, and

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Speaker 2: no one talks about the Six Flags guy. And that's

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Speaker 2: actually one of my bigger criticisms of the film. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but historically they couldn't. I think he wasn't, you know,

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Speaker 2: a popular figure till the nineties. Let's get our guests

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Speaker 2: in here talk about two guests who love to expect

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Speaker 2: foor grotesque motherhood in a very different way.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, yes, they are the creators of Teenage Euthanasia, which

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Speaker 3: is currently available to stream. It's Alison Levy and Alyssa Nutting. Hello, welcome,

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Speaker 3: thank you.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 4: I don't think they talked about any man in this

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Speaker 4: movie at any point alone for two lines in a row.

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Speaker 5: I am wondering if the six Flags guy is its

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Speaker 5: own marginalized gender perhow.

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Speaker 4: And then what if Tilda Swinton actually is the six

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Speaker 4: Flags guy? That was my like, do we know that

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Speaker 4: she's not?

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Speaker 3: We don't know that she's not.

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Speaker 2: That would be a really good long con. It's like

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Speaker 2: when you learn that JK. Simmons is the Yellow Eminem

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Speaker 2: and you're like, what it all comes to? Oh, Kitlyn,

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Speaker 2: I love that. I got to tell you that he's

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Speaker 2: been the Yellow Eminem for like at least ten years,

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Speaker 2: probably longer. I yes, I know.

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Speaker 3: It's also like when that one stormtrooper in The Force

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Speaker 3: awakens who has like two lines of dialogue and is

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Speaker 3: getting like force mind controlled by ray as she's like

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Speaker 3: discovering her powers. Is Daniel Craig what but you never

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Speaker 3: know because he's in a stormtrooper costume.

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Speaker 2: Good good for him.

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Speaker 3: I find that fascinating personally.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, it's it's no yellow eminem for me, but I'm

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Speaker 2: happy for him. Yeah, that's a fun. Okay, Okay, we're

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Speaker 2: talking about Suspiria, the twenty eighteen adaptation by Oh God,

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Speaker 2: Italian name I am not, I'm gonna fuck it up.

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Speaker 2: Luca Guagnino, Y Guadanino, Ewen McGregor. Ye, just list of

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Speaker 2: names I've never said correctly, Luca Guadnino, most famous. It's

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Speaker 2: his first movie. I didn't realize this was his first

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Speaker 2: movie after Call Me by Your Name. It's kind of

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Speaker 2: a wild follow up, but obviously not the first adaptation

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Speaker 2: of this movie that was in nineteen seventy seven by

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Speaker 2: Dario Argento. And will sort of talk about the like

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Speaker 2: changes made to the twenty eighteen movie, because it's a lot,

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Speaker 2: it's about an hour's worth of their stuff.

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Speaker 3: They're very different movies. Yeah, and I imagine we will

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Speaker 3: just cover the nineteen seventy seven Suspiria in a different

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Speaker 3: episode at some point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It's very it's very very different. Yeah, but first

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Speaker 2: I guess with I would expand this to either Suspiria Alyssa.

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Speaker 2: Let's start with you. What's your history with the Suspiria

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Speaker 2: expanded universe.

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Speaker 5: Okay, I do want to Like, I read that Tilda

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Speaker 5: wore a prosthetic penis when she played the German Psychoana. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: and that that kind of eclipses a lot of sort

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Speaker 5: of like what I I don't know thoughts I had

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Speaker 5: about the film. And there's a great gift of her

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Speaker 5: from this movie eating Wings. That's also just like a gift. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: I want to put out there if people haven't seen

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Speaker 5: that gift, like, you can send it. You can send

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Speaker 5: it for almost anything. It's kind of one of those

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Speaker 5: universal it's like, oh blood, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 5: Like any any situation can use Tilda eating Wings.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean I loved.

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Speaker 5: I loved the original and was really excited for the

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Speaker 5: new one. I didn't I didn't expect it to be

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Speaker 5: as different.

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Speaker 4: I guess I'll begin there.

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Speaker 5: But you know, I like being aroused and frightened at

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Speaker 5: the same time, So I'm a I'm a big fan

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Speaker 5: of both.

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Speaker 3: Sure, it's a horny movie and it's a scary movie.

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Speaker 3: It's accomplishing a lot of emotions.

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Speaker 2: Check check Alison, what about you? Either Suspiria both very

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Speaker 2: uns well.

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Speaker 4: I see like two horror movies a decade. I'm like,

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Speaker 4: I don't like the feeling of being afraid. I don't

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Speaker 4: like the manipulated feeling of fear. But for some reason,

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Speaker 4: I did see this movie when it came out in

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Speaker 4: the theater, which again highly you know, not regular for

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Speaker 4: me to do, and I liked it a lot, which

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Speaker 4: also at the time seemed, you know, people just decided

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Speaker 4: they hated it or something, but I don't know, but

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Speaker 4: I liked it. And I watched it this morning at

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Speaker 4: kind of yap speed to Prayer for Today, and I

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Speaker 4: liked it at yap speed too. It's I don't know,

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Speaker 4: it's really beautiful. And I also think I didn't realize

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Speaker 4: how much mother stuff was in there actually, And now

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Speaker 4: that's probably why I liked it too, because that is

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Speaker 4: one of my more favorite topics.

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Speaker 3: Jamie, how about you.

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Speaker 2: I had seen both suspir before, but not for a while,

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Speaker 2: and I know that when I saw the Luca Guadnino one,

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Speaker 2: I was like, probably not fully paying attention because it's

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Speaker 2: streaming on Amazon Prime, which means if a movie's long

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Speaker 2: and it's streaming, I'm gonna be in and out of

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Speaker 2: the room. I'm gonna be peeing and not pausing. I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna be missing some things and not really worrying about it.

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Speaker 2: So it felt like a fresh look at it. I'd

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Speaker 2: seen the ar gentle One I don't know when, but

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Speaker 2: I remember, like, I don't know, like it's not really

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Speaker 2: doing much in the way of like subverting slasher tropes

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Speaker 2: as as much, but it's beautiful and the score rips,

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Speaker 2: and I just remember liking, like, even though it wasn't,

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Speaker 2: like whatever, doing much in the way of subverting any

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Speaker 2: sort of witchy tropes or whatever, because we've been talking

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Speaker 2: about so many witch movies recently that I feel like

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Speaker 2: on Witch Patrol, where I'm like, nothing really new there,

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Speaker 2: but it just like the way it's stylized is pretty

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Speaker 2: incredible and really memorable, and so I liked it. I

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Speaker 2: rewatched it before watching the New Suspiria just to get

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Speaker 2: a full idea of like how complicated the new narrative

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Speaker 2: is in comparison, and I don't know, I feel like

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Speaker 2: I'm I I was not expecting to be like mech

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Speaker 2: on this new one, and I am open to being swayed.

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Speaker 2: I didn't really like it very much. I thought it

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Speaker 2: was like doing it's so weird because it's like art

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Speaker 2: whatever this show was airing when this movie came out.

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Speaker 2: It's only five years old, but it already feels like

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Speaker 2: kind of funky to me, of like a male o

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Speaker 2: tour trying to craft a reaction to the me Too movement.

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Speaker 2: I think if I watched it in twenty eighteen, I

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Speaker 2: would have liked it more than I liked it now.

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Speaker 2: But now it just felt like, oh yeah, that was

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Speaker 2: like the series, like the you know, stretch of a

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Speaker 2: couple of years where all of our male o tours

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Speaker 2: were like, don't worry you, guys, I get it and

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Speaker 2: like it. I don't know, like parts of this movie

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Speaker 2: were from certain angles. I really liked this movie. I

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Speaker 2: liked what it tried to add with like historical context

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Speaker 2: and like giving you more than just sort of your

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Speaker 2: standard slasher characters. But then there were other parts that

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Speaker 2: I was like, what is he on about? What? What's

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Speaker 2: all this?

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Speaker 5: Then?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's kind of like not loving this movie

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Speaker 2: the way I was expecting to. Anyways, Caitlin, what's your

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Speaker 2: history with Suspirias.

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Speaker 3: I saw the first Suspiria in the early two thousands,

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Speaker 3: and I've seen it a few times since, and I

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Speaker 3: generally like it, although I find the story just sort

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Speaker 3: of like what is this about?

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Speaker 2: Again? But which is there?

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Speaker 5: Mean?

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Speaker 2: And they need new ones right right?

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Speaker 3: It's a tone poem, I would say, between like the

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Speaker 3: color scheme, the lighting, the score. You know, it's like

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Speaker 3: it's just sort of something you put on and kind

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Speaker 3: of like vibe to in a horror way, you know.

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Speaker 3: And I appreciate that. The new one I find more

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Speaker 3: narratively compelling, because I feel like it tries to have

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Speaker 3: more of a plot. But I have similar gripes as you, Jamie,

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Speaker 3: as far as I mean, we'll get into it. But

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Speaker 3: I did see it in theaters. I was one of, like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know eleven people who saw it because this

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Speaker 3: movie tanks.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I also saw the theater the same show.

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Speaker 3: It was just us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I would have liked it better if

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Speaker 2: I had seen it in the theater the first time, too,

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Speaker 2: because it's like, it seems like it's the sort of

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Speaker 2: movie where it's like, if you're like in it, it

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Speaker 2: probably hits harder.

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Speaker 4: That dancing too is really cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I don't know the dancing.

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Speaker 4: And again, as much as I dislike horror, I also

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Speaker 4: dislike dancing, and so it like sort of doublely seemed

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Speaker 4: problematic for me. But no, I maybe like they cancel

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Speaker 4: each other out. But I liked all the dancing on

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Speaker 4: the big screen because the sound is really cool too

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Speaker 4: that you probably don't hear if you're like wandering around

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Speaker 4: your apartment watch it. The sound is pretty cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's cool stuff. I mean, there's there's things to like, certainly, and.

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Speaker 2: The dancing's amazing. The costumes are incredible. It made me

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Speaker 2: realize that there's apparently a whole like subgenre of horror

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Speaker 2: that's like ballet or dance horror. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Center parts, a lot of center parts.

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Speaker 3: Yes, middle parts. Yeah. So I'm excited to get into it.

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Speaker 3: I feel even though I watched the movie twice and

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Speaker 3: did a bunch of reading, I still feel underprepared because

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Speaker 3: there's just there's so much. There's a lot of lore

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Speaker 3: that was established by Dario Argento and Daria Nickelode who

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Speaker 3: coote the first Suspiria movie.

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Speaker 2: Is that correct?

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Speaker 3: Yes, So there's all this lore and then this Suspiria

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Speaker 3: movie from twenty eighteen, being set in Cold War mostly

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Speaker 3: West Berlin, and a bunch of stuff that I still

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Speaker 3: don't understand. Every time I try to learn about the

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Speaker 3: Cold War, I read so much and I still do

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Speaker 3: not really quite understand it.

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Speaker 4: Let me paint the picture for you. I'm just kidding you.

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Speaker 2: That's fortunately the three of us are Cold War. Said,

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Speaker 2: I know, it's like we mutually figured. I don't know

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Speaker 2: as because I was texting you while I was watching

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Speaker 2: the movie as well. I'm like, I just it's just

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Speaker 2: not coming in. It's not coming in.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I actually can paint the picture a tiny

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Speaker 4: bit of the Berlin part, if this is If this

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Speaker 4: helps at all, I've been to Berlin a lot of

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Speaker 4: times and I had friends there, so I think why

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Speaker 4: it's set there and why it was interesting to me,

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Speaker 4: and the whole bider monhaff stuff. It's like, you know,

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Speaker 4: the seventies in Germany, they're like the people who were

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Speaker 4: born after the war are like confronting. They're disgusting parents

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Speaker 4: who were Nazis, right, so they're all like coming of

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Speaker 4: age and realizing they have to confront this. Like not

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Speaker 4: in some theoretical construct but with their actual families and

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Speaker 4: so that it's like there it's like a whole seventies

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Speaker 4: like apocalyptic you know, political thing or everything's like busting apart,

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Speaker 4: and there's like actual terrorists that are you know, creating havoc.

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Speaker 4: And then the whole East and West is this like

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Speaker 4: crazy schism, right you guys know, like you couldn't go

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Speaker 4: from one to the other. It's like families are divided again. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and then the whole the whole East part, like when

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Speaker 4: he goes there. The other thing I thought was kind

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Speaker 4: of cool is because it's famous for like the Stazi,

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Speaker 4: which was like Google before Google, like irl Google, where

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Speaker 4: there's like people keeping track of every single thing you're doing,

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Speaker 4: what you're saying, You're being recorded all the time, but

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Speaker 4: there's like actual humans writing this down, where did she go,

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Speaker 4: who she's meeting with, and everyone's telling on each other.

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Speaker 4: So it's like this absolute state of paranoia, which I

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Speaker 4: think is what the therapist thing is about, but it's real.

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Speaker 4: It's like how this is real. There really are riches,

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Speaker 4: and there really is this entire state of paranoia that

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Speaker 4: they're all living in. But that's you know, that was

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Speaker 4: why I thought it was set in the Germany this time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's that's super and I think that like

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Speaker 2: it it. I thought it was a cool concept for

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Speaker 2: them to set the twenty eighteen movie in Germany at

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Speaker 2: the time that the original came out, with like the

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Speaker 2: benefit of knowing what happens and like how to Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Like there's so much talk about generational trauma through like

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Speaker 2: World War two specifically, and also just how generational trauma

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Speaker 2: exists between mothers and daughters, and I like all of that.

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Speaker 2: But why don't I like this movie?

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Speaker 4: Let's explore I wouldn't even convince you that you should.

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Speaker 4: You know, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but I doesn't like And maybe it

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Speaker 2: was just too long, but I don't It's very long.

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Speaker 3: And not very quickly paced.

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Speaker 2: There was a post credit sequence, yeah, which I don't understand.

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Speaker 2: It's doctor strange ass approach.

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Speaker 5: To the message.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's take a quick break and then come back

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Speaker 3: for the recap. Here is the story, which is set

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Speaker 3: in mostly West Berlin in nineteen seventy seven, and we

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Speaker 3: meet a young woman named Patricia played by Chloe Grace Moretz,

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Speaker 3: who pays a visit to her psychologist doctor Klemper, who

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Speaker 3: is an old man, although it's Tilda Swinton in makeup,

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Speaker 3: one of the many characters the Six Flags guy, some

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Speaker 3: would say, one of the many characters that Tillda Swinton

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Speaker 3: plays in the movie. And Patricia tells him their witches,

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Speaker 3: although we don't know who or what she's referring to yet.

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Speaker 2: We also hear Chloe Grace Moretz say the iconic line,

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Speaker 2: They're going to eat my cont on.

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Speaker 3: A plate, my hollowed out kunt on a plate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's a fun crossed it, you know, as like

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Speaker 2: that's the fun that maybe is the first time that

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Speaker 2: sentence was written down, and I like that.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, I'm in it. Now.

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Speaker 2: Did you get points for that?

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Speaker 5: Right? I will. I'll be as a defense attorney, right, Like,

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Speaker 5: I mean, come on, like, how many points for that?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 1: I mean?

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Speaker 5: Even if it's even if it's do anything else?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, on a plate?

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: The steaks are high.

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Speaker 3: Okay. So then we cut to a Mennonite family in

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Speaker 3: rural Ohio. We meet a young woman named Susie Banyon

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Speaker 3: played by Dakota Johnson as she sits by the bedside

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Speaker 3: of her very ill mother. Then we cut to Susie

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Speaker 3: in Berlin. She arrives at the Marcos Dance Company for

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Speaker 3: an audition, and even though she has no formal dance training,

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Speaker 3: she gives an audition that impresses the people in charge,

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Speaker 3: one of them being Madame Blanc also Tilda Swinton, and

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Speaker 3: Susie is accepted into the company in a building where

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Speaker 3: like the dancers also live, so like the performances are there,

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Speaker 3: the dormitories where the dancers stay are there. It seems

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Speaker 3: like all of the matrons who are like faculty and

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Speaker 3: staff of this place, everyone lives there.

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Speaker 2: Right, and there's when she gets in, there's sort of

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Speaker 2: this like definitely does not appear in the Argenta version,

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Speaker 2: but it's like taken. They take a moment to emphasize

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Speaker 2: that all of your needs are taken care of, and

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Speaker 2: that a woman's financial independence is not lost on them

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Speaker 2: and is very important to them, and that is originally

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Speaker 2: what makes I mean Susie almost bursts into tears upon

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Speaker 2: hearing that, because it seems like she grew up with

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Speaker 2: not very much. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Then Susie meets a few of the staff. There are instructors, administrators,

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Speaker 3: a house mother. Again, the matrons not to be confused

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Speaker 3: with the matrons of our Matreon.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Patreon has a patriarchal plan that we don't like. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I would say that about maybe one third of the

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Speaker 2: women who run this school are till the Swinton, yes.

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Speaker 4: But well and the rest the rest are more conventional hacks,

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Speaker 4: which is again I'm pretty into that. I'm really into hagc.

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Speaker 2: Or in general.

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Speaker 4: It's a wonderful and diverse body type of hack.

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Speaker 2: I do like, yeah, like all of the like older

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Speaker 2: women in this I mean I it reaches a point

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Speaker 2: sometimes where it's like, I don't know, but as far

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Speaker 2: as the administration goes, I'm like, oh, yeah, women that

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Speaker 2: are like look their own age and are not constantly

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Speaker 2: bilittled for it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeeha. Imagine all are welcome at the dance company.

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Speaker 4: You assume they're all ex dancers. So they seem they

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Speaker 4: seem pretty lithe is that the right word. They're pretty

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Speaker 4: they seem like they can move pretty good. It's been

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Speaker 4: kind of jealous of that.

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Speaker 5: But anyway, there's the witchcraft too that probably.

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Speaker 3: That's probably helping that keeps you limber.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if I could, I would cast spells on myself

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Speaker 3: so as to not wake up in pain every morning. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: So Susie meets the Matrons. She also meets another dancer

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Speaker 3: named Sarah played by Mia Goth, and they become friendly.

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Speaker 2: I like Mia Goths so much. I forgot she was

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Speaker 2: in this movie.

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Speaker 3: She's great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she's an incredible like horror actor, specifically, like, I'm

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Speaker 2: excitedly like.

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Speaker 5: One of the best.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I just saw Infinity Pool.

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Speaker 5: Oh, she's a standout, beyond beyond standout.

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Speaker 3: And I know that people really like ex and Pearl,

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Speaker 3: neither of which I've seen yet.

394
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Speaker 2: But afraid to afraid, I really liked of the two.

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Speaker 2: I loved Pearl. I thought Pearl was awesome. We should

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Speaker 2: cover Pearl at some point. And she was great in Emma. Anyways,

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Speaker 2: I hope she's well.

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Speaker 3: I hope she's well.

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Speaker 5: She's well, I hope she's well.

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Speaker 3: Also worth noting that everyone at the dance company, the dancers,

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00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 3: the matrons, et cetera. Everyone is a almost as if

402
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 3: it's a.

403
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Speaker 2: Coven, of which is yeah, there wouldn't. Surely there wouldn't

404
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Speaker 2: just be a group of women.

405
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Speaker 3: Never a group of women equals a coven.

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Speaker 2: Not in the seventies. Something's afoot.

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Speaker 3: Okay. Then there's a scene where the matrons are casting

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Speaker 3: votes for either Marcos or Blanc, and it's voted that

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Speaker 3: Mother Marcos will remain in charge. Then there's a conversation

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Speaker 3: about how they have to choose the right girl to

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Speaker 3: perform some ritual because Patricia aka Chloe Grace Moretz didn't

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Speaker 3: work out and now Patricia seems to be missing. The

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Speaker 3: other dancers, particularly Sarah, is worried about her and they

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Speaker 3: don't know where.

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Speaker 2: She is, which is interesting because in the in the

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Speaker 2: original version, that is Susie. I mean, there's like Susie's

417
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 2: whole narrative in this movie is unique to this movie.

418
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Speaker 2: But originally it's like the American girl shows up and

419
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Speaker 2: finds out something's afoot and immediately starts investigating it and doesn't.

420
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Speaker 2: I don't know, it's just like the character is totally different.

421
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Speaker 2: But that's more Mia goths vibe in this movie.

422
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're wondering if Mia Goth's character Sarah might

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Speaker 3: be the right choice for this ritual that they will

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Speaker 3: be performing. Sarah then helps Susie get settled into her dormitory,

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Speaker 3: and then the dancers start rehearsing for an upcoming performance

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Speaker 3: of a dance called Vulk, which and they're doing like

427
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 3: contemporary dance slash German expression. There's some modern dance. I

428
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Speaker 3: don't know exactly what genre this is, but it's not

429
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Speaker 3: ballet like it is in the first Suspiria movie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're pulling from like this specific German choreographer named

431
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Speaker 2: Mary Wigman, and I guess that that is like who

432
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Speaker 2: Dakota Johnson studied. She's a modern dancer during the time.

433
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Speaker 2: But the reason she is not explicitly credited or referenced

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Speaker 2: within the movie is because I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: what you were like referring to of like the kind

436
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 2: of one of the narrative complications of this movie Alison,

437
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 2: where she was likely connected to Nazism in some way.

438
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: So she had a lot of influence in German dance

439
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 2: but is not really discussed today, although I think it's

440
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 2: her work that's being pulled from for this choreography.

441
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 3: Interesting. So they're doing they're prepping for this performance for

442
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 3: this dance called Volk. The one dancer, Olga, is upset

443
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 3: that Patricia is gone and she calls Madame Blanc a

444
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: liar and a witch, and she runs out intending to

445
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 3: quit the company, so now they don't have a protagonist

446
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 3: because Olga was supposed to dance that part, but Susie volunteers,

447
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 3: even though she's brand new and people are skeptical of

448
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 3: her skill level. He's like, I can do it, and

449
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 3: she starts dancing.

450
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: She's so Christine die in Phantom of the Opera, where

451
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: she's like me, I guess I could, and then she

452
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: fucking kills it.

453
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's dancing, and as she's dancing, we see Olga

454
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 3: trying to leave, but she gets trapped in a room

455
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 3: and it's as if Susie's dance movements are puppeting Olga's

456
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 3: body and so it's contorting her in this really gruesome,

457
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 3: violent way. It's breaking her bones and twisting her all around.

458
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 2: I know this movie came out afterwards, but it reminded

459
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: me very much of a similar dance scene in US.

460
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's right, that came out the year after this,

461
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 2: So I think it's a coincidence, but wild that this

462
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 2: setup was on people's minds. Right.

463
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 3: We are also occasionally following doctor Klemper around he visits

464
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 3: I think it's his old house in East Berlin where

465
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 3: he used to live.

466
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 2: With his wife.

467
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 3: Who went missing many years ago. We also see him

468
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 3: looking through Patricia's journal and he sees some peculiar stuff

469
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,719
Speaker 3: about this dance company and he calls the police and

470
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 3: reports Patricia missing. Now back at the company, some of

471
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 3: the matrons find Olga's grotesquely contorted body. They barely react.

472
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 3: They stick some large hooks in her and drag her away.

473
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 3: So it seems like this is just par for the

474
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 3: course at the old Marcos Dance Company.

475
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 2: A lot of hook imagery in this.

476
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 3: Movie, yeah, truly. Then we hear a conversation, which so

477
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: some of the conversations in this movie seem to be

478
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 3: happening telepathically, where the matron slash witches are communicating with

479
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 3: their minds.

480
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: You didn't like that part, Jamie, Oh no, I did

481
00:27:58,800 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 2: like that part.

482
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 4: That was a good part. I thought that was really good,

483
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 4: Like when they're just dinner but then they're so fang

484
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 4: is happening. I kind of love that.

485
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 2: I thought that was great. Yeah, No, that like there,

486
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 2: I didn't hate this movie, let me be, I just

487
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 2: feel like, I don't know, I'm excited to talk about

488
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: it later in the episode where I felt like there

489
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: were so many elements of this movie that I liked

490
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 2: and I didn't really I don't know, like I just

491
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 2: where it landed. I found confused. I was like not

492
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 2: happy with the way that it.

493
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 3: Ended, I guess anyway, So we hear this conversation where

494
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 3: they are rethinking their choice of Sarah and instead maybe

495
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 3: they should try the new girl, Susie for the ritual

496
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 3: they're planning.

497
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:41,719
Speaker 5: Uh.

498
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 3: Then two cops show up to the dance company trying

499
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 3: to find Patricia, but some of the matrons seemingly put

500
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 3: them in a hypnotic trance. They're taunting them, they're taking

501
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 3: their pants off and like touching.

502
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 4: That was my other favorite part.

503
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're and they're touching them with the hooks like

504
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 3: they're like kind of prodding the one guy's penis with

505
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 3: one of the hooks, and it's release something. The dancers

506
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 3: continue to rehearse with Madame Blanc instructing them. She's working

507
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 3: closely with Susie, training her up. She's like jump higher.

508
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 3: Then we see this hand, this like close up on

509
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 3: a hand with these like long growth fingernails, and apparently

510
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 3: it's mother Marcos from like the depths of this building

511
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 3: wanting to feel Susie's energy. Then doctor Klemper approaches Sarah

512
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 3: about Patricia and her belief that a coven of witches

513
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 3: is running this dance company, and he's like, Sarah, maybe

514
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 3: you should check this out, and she's like, I don't

515
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 3: know what you're talking about. I see no evidence of this.

516
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 3: Leave me alone. But Sarah starts to get little suspicious,

517
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 3: and she does start investigating the building and finds a

518
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: room with some weird stuff, including those large hooks, and

519
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 3: she also hears some screaming coming from another room. And

520
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 3: that screaming, I think is that other Tilda Swinton character

521
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 3: with the big plastic framed Six Flags guy glasses who

522
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 3: we had seen picking up a knife and stabbing herself

523
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 3: in the neck for reasons Yes that we definitely understands.

524
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: And yeah, I think that she and the psychiatry should

525
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: have hung out because they had a similar till this

526
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 2: wint and six Flags guy aesthetic, Like they would have

527
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: made sense together as friends, even you know exactly.

528
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 3: Okay, So Sarah is, you know, hearing and seeing this

529
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 3: freaky stuff. So she runs out and she goes to

530
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 3: see doctor Clemper again, who tells Sarah about what Patricia

531
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 3: had written in her diary about the three mothers, and

532
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 3: I'm going to try to pronounce their names. It's mother Tennenbroum,

533
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 3: the Royal tenen Broughms. It's mothers.

534
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 2: Like being at a party and trying to remember the

535
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: name of a movie.

536
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, mother, Oh god, I don't let letch not lockreamham Marum,

537
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 3: I don't know. And then mother suspiriorum or something. I

538
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 3: don't know if I said that one right. Anyway, Mother

539
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 3: Marco's claims to be one of the three, but there

540
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 3: is descent among the group of matrons, hence that vote

541
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 3: we saw earlier as to who should be in charge,

542
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 3: and it seems like modern Blanc is also insisting that

543
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 3: she's one of the mothers.

544
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 4: This is kind of the bitchiest part of the Movie's

545
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 4: kind of like in cat fighting between them. Which old

546
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 4: witch in charge?

547
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 3: Which witch yep. Then Sarah confronts Susie, accusing her of

548
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 3: making some kind of deal with the witches, and Susie's like, no,

549
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 3: nothing is wrong, everything is normal te he and we're like, wow,

550
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 3: gaslighting much. Then it's the night of the show that

551
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 3: the company is putting on, and as the dancers are

552
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 3: getting ready, Sarah snoops around the building again, and she

553
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 3: finds Patricia and some of the other dancers. I think

554
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 3: Olga maybe the one who had been like badly contorted.

555
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 3: They are alive, but their bodies are badly injured and

556
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 3: they're like decaying. They're kind of being kept in storage.

557
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 3: It looks like, yeah, they're like being held against their will.

558
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 4: Kind of catacombs underneath.

559
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: The dance school.

560
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really scary. And Sarah is freaked out and

561
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 3: she's trying to escape, but she falls and breaks her

562
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 3: leg because like the witches are preventing her from escaping,

563
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 3: and then some of the matrons find her and put

564
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 3: her into a trance and heal her leg. Meanwhile, the

565
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 3: performance is going on upstairs with Susie dancing the lead

566
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: and Sarah, in her trance joins in, but she falls

567
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 3: and cries out in pain, and doctor Klemper, who is

568
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 3: there to watch, is like, Wow, something weird is definitely

569
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 3: going on. I was right.

570
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 4: They changed eye color too, Yeah, girl, yes, which is

571
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 4: very weird. You don't realize what is happening, and then yeah,

572
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 4: you sort of realize it.

573
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 3: Yeah right, I know, Like toward the end of the movie,

574
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 3: I was like wait, was Dakota Fanning's eyes were they

575
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 3: always brown?

576
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: Dakota? Who?

577
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 3: What did I say, Dakota? Did I say, Dakota Fanning?

578
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 3: I knew I was going to do.

579
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: That, Dakota straight.

580
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm so sorry, buddy.

581
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 2: Back inside of everyone, there are two Dakota's.

582
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 3: North inside or east and west like the Berlin anyway. Okay,

583
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 3: So then there's another day of rehearsals, and Madame Blanc

584
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 3: is like, okay, it has to happen tonight, this ritual

585
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,760
Speaker 3: with Susie, where Susie will be some sort of vessel

586
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 3: for Mother Marcos, and Susie seems to be in on it.

587
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 3: She is a willing and knowing participant. Meanwhile, doctor Klemperer's

588
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 3: his wife, who again went missing decades earlier, suddenly reappears

589
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 3: and she's played by Jessica Harper, who played Susie Banyon

590
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 3: in the original Suspiria from nineteen seventy seven.

591
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,919
Speaker 2: Who has been on this chef friend of the cast.

592
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 3: On the Rosemary's Baby episode. Ye anyway, so uh, doctor

593
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 3: Klemperer and his wife Anka have a tearful reunion and

594
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 3: they're walking through this city at night, and then She

595
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 3: brings him to the dance company and then immediately disappears

596
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 3: because it was a trick. The witches tricked him into

597
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 3: going there because they're going to use him as the

598
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 3: witness for the ritual. The ritual starts. We're in this

599
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 3: big underground room. The dancers are naked. They're dancing and

600
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 3: writhing around. Sarah is getting disemboweled. Mother Marcos is there.

601
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 3: We finally see her in the flesh. She is also

602
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 3: played by Tilda Swinton, and she is a sight to see,

603
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 3: a vision of a vision, a legend. You know, we'll

604
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 3: talk about that character more, but basically she's made to

605
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 3: look very.

606
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: Many times we talk about that happening. Yeah, seriously reminds

607
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: me of I feel like that goes back to not

608
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 2: like cinematically, just like times we've talked about it. I

609
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 2: feel like the shining maybe.

610
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 3: Shining, we talked about it and the Vivich We've got

611
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 3: countless times. This conversation is always coming up midsommar. Yeah. Oh,

612
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 3: and then Susie is like I'm ready, and we think

613
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 3: she's going to be sacrificed, and then Madame Blanc is like,

614
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 3: something doesn't feel right. We have to stop this, but

615
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 3: before she can, Mother Marcos kind of like half decapitates

616
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 3: Madame Blanc and then Marcos is like, okay, Susie, let's

617
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: keep going. And by the way, you have to kill

618
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 3: your mother back in Ohio because I'm the only mother

619
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 3: you need. But then another super witch I don't really

620
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 3: know who this is supposed to be, but a very

621
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,280
Speaker 3: scary being shows up, and Susie's like, hey, Mother Marcos,

622
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 3: for which mother were you anointed again? And she's like

623
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 3: Mother's Suspiriorum and Susie's like, well, that's interesting because I

624
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 3: am Mother's Suspiriorum. And then the super witch kills Mother

625
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 3: Marcos and anyone who had voted for Marcos by exploding

626
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 3: their heads into a burst of blood. Then Susie goes

627
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 3: to Patricia, Olga and Sarah and they all ask to die.

628
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 3: They're you know, in pain and they've been you know,

629
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:29,959
Speaker 3: brutally tortured and stuff. So Susie slash the new Mother

630
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 3: Suspiriorum releases them from their mortal coils, and the other

631
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 3: dancers are still dancing, and Susie's like, yes, keep dancing.

632
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 3: She also rips open her own chest at some point

633
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 3: for reasons.

634
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: It's because she's got like a heart of darkness. Yes,

635
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,760
Speaker 2: mother suspiriorum vibes truly.

636
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 4: I think she's like, she's not a person, So you're

637
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 4: just like, it's whatever, where this is?

638
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, the spirit, this magic, it does sort of look

639
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 3: like a hollowed out kunt hit in her chest. Sorry,

640
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 3: I'm just quoting the movie anyway.

641
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 4: Oh I'm open to it.

642
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, thank you so much.

643
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 4: Uh.

644
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 3: Then we see the aftermath of all of this, where

645
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 3: one of the matrons escorts doctor Klemper out of the building.

646
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 3: We see the remaining matrons whose heads didn't get exploded.

647
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 3: They're cleaning up the bloody mess from the night before.

648
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 3: Madame Blanc is still sort of alive, but who knows.

649
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 3: Then Susie pays a visit to doctor Klemper at home,

650
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 3: and she's like, you deserve to know the truth about

651
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 3: what happened with your wife, and she tells him that

652
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 3: she was killed in a Nazi death camp in nineteen

653
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 3: forty three and that she was thinking of him when

654
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 3: she died. And then Susie erases his memory of his wife, Anka,

655
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 3: of Patricia and Sarah, and Susie herself basically all of

656
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 3: the women that were his undoing. And then the movie

657
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 3: ends with an image of the house he lived in

658
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 3: with Anka, and this like engraved like their initials engraved

659
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 3: with like a heart drawn around it, which he will

660
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 3: never remember because the witches don't want him to remember.

661
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 2: The end.

662
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 3: So that's the movie. Let's take a quick break and

663
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 3: we'll come back to discuss, and we are back, all right,

664
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 3: Where should we start?

665
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 2: Where did we start with this movie? I mean, I

666
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: guess just to for people listening who have not seen

667
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 2: either movie or have a only seen the twenty eighteen movie,

668
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 2: the differences between the two suspirias are pretty significant. I

669
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 2: would say that there's obviously a lot of love and

670
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 2: care put into the twenty eighteen version to pay homage

671
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: to the original. The protagonist's name is the same. Susie

672
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: comes from America to a dancing organization in Berlin in

673
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: both times. The dance company is full of witches both times,

674
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 2: but the Argenta version is plot wise pretty cut and

675
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 2: dry as far as which stories go. I think that

676
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: what makes it different is, you know, unlike most slasher

677
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: films of this era and still to some extent now,

678
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 2: depending on what you're watching, it's not men butchering women,

679
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 2: it's women butchering women. Although it's shot very similarly and

680
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: it's sort of a straightforward an innocent young woman comes

681
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: to Berlin and finds witches and she survives till the

682
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 2: end and is sort of this pure figure throughout. This

683
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: one is obviously very different, but for those who haven't

684
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: seen the Argento that's basically what it is, and it

685
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 2: has all these separate issues that the twenty eighteen movie

686
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: does not share with it, So we'll save that for

687
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 2: another episode.

688
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I also want to share some of the lore

689
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 3: of the Three Mothers, which I didn't realize until I

690
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 3: started researching for this episode, but it's I wasn't sure

691
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 3: if like the Three Mothers were based in some sort

692
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 3: of myth thought like existing mythology, and it was inspired

693
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 3: by existing mythology. But basically Dario Argento conceived of this

694
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 3: trio of mothers and made a trilogy about the Three mothers.

695
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 3: So Suspiria from seventy seven is one of the movies

696
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 3: of this trilogy that focuses on, you know, mother Suspiriorum.

697
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 3: He also made a movie called Inferno and another movie

698
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:17,919
Speaker 3: called Mother of Tears, which each of those movies focuses

699
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:23,720
Speaker 3: on the other two of the three mothers, and throughout

700
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 3: the course of this trilogy you learn that it's these like,

701
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 3: you know, ancient witches who I think invented It was

702
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 3: like three sisters who invented witchcraft and then started just

703
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: like going around Europe amassing wealth throughout the centuries, amassing power,

704
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 3: leaving death in their wake wherever they went. They were

705
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 3: able to manipulate world events on like a global scale,

706
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 3: you know, killing anyone who got in their way or

707
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 3: discovered who they actually were, and they were determined to

708
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 3: rule the world. Now the witch is wanting more world

709
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,439
Speaker 3: domination doesn't come across super clearly in this movie, which

710
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 3: is actually one of my criticisms about it because I

711
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 3: kept being like, oh, okay, what is their motivation? Like

712
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 3: why are they doing what they're doing? I wish there

713
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 3: was I don't know, I guess, and we'll talk about

714
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 3: this the way, like these witches are feminists, which obviously

715
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 3: I mean further discussion, but like I was like, are

716
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 3: these witches like trying to smash the patriarchy quote unquote

717
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 3: or like what are they doing exactly?

718
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 2: It's it.

719
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 3: It never becomes quite clear, and so I was left wanting,

720
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 3: I guess, more of a reason or an explanation of

721
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 3: like why they're doing what they're doing. But we can

722
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 3: get further into that.

723
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, does anyone have like I mean, I sat like,

724
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 2: I think the way that I think about this movie

725
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: changes depending on like which perspective I'm looking at it

726
00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 2: from where.

727
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 3: Which perspective.

728
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 2: Witch, But there's I think that there's a lot of

729
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 2: like generational stuff going on in this movie, and that

730
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: it see or I sort of took away that like

731
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 2: this coven was just trying to sustain by any means necessary,

732
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 2: which you could say of like basically any societal setup,

733
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 2: but this one is hyper feminine and also supernatural. But

734
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,719
Speaker 2: it just seemed like for me, like I don't know,

735
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 2: I was not I'm surprised I did not know that

736
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 2: about the Argento expanded like lore because it Yeah, I

737
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 2: think I just read especially because of like the historical

738
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 2: context that they were However, like however they had to

739
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 2: survive as even like an idea or a structure that

740
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: they were not above brutalizing or getting rid of anyone

741
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: who didn't sort of fall into line with what they needed,

742
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 2: which is like, you know, a patriarchal structure, even though

743
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 2: this one is dominated by women. But anyone who falls

744
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 2: out of line in this world, and I think this

745
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: is true of the Argenta movie too, but like anyone

746
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 2: who falls out of line with the big leaders is

747
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 2: not just eliminated, but like tortured and humiliated and then

748
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 2: eliminated and like discredited. And that felt clear to me.

749
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: I just like I don't know, I guess I'm less

750
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 2: sure of like what the goal was of showing this

751
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 2: happening in a strictly like matriarchal world.

752
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, to me, what I thought it was

753
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 4: a back which was very interesting to me was like

754
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 4: female creativity because to me, like it really they were

755
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 4: a dance studio. They weren't just like a schoolhouse or something.

756
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 4: And I think that's their thing. They're fucking amazing at dancing.

757
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 4: And that's a super interesting tension of like their creativity

758
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 4: and the woman who's kind of in charge is the

759
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 4: kind of creative, the most creative one, but they're all

760
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 4: kind of buying for like who's you know, can kind

761
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 4: of get into it the best or the best dancer.

762
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 4: And I thought like that was their point, but maybe

763
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 4: that's just you know, what interests me is female creativity,

764
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 4: and there's very few movies about female creativity, and so

765
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 4: I like that a lot. And then again, so I

766
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 4: have teenage daughters and I'm an elder hag, and so

767
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 4: the tension between the hags and the young women is real.

768
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 4: I just a personal story. I had just spent two

769
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 4: days at my fourteen year old daughter's overnight camp where

770
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 4: all the mothers come. It's called Mother's Weekend, and it

771
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 4: was mothers with their daughters for two nights at an

772
00:46:55,200 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 4: overnight camp. And you see these like daughters and then

773
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 4: you see them walking with the mothers and they kind

774
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 4: of look alike, but there's kind of some I don't know,

775
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 4: like they're all like the mothers are kind of like

776
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 4: swollen and sweaty and like you know, wearing shorts that

777
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 4: don't fit them, and the daughters are all just sort

778
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 4: of like these like glorious like young, full of life,

779
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 4: you know things, And it's like real to me. When

780
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 4: I just watched it again, it was super like that

781
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 4: tension of like older women younger women. The kind of

782
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 4: physicality of it, I don't know, I mean, does it

783
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 4: all like is there like a straight line that you

784
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 4: can call, you know. But it made me think about

785
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 4: all that stuff and that's all interesting to me.

786
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's like one of the things. So like

787
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 3: Mother Marcos and when we finally get her reveal on screen,

788
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 3: and there's been kind of there's been hints about like

789
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 3: what this ritual is gonna be fool or like why

790
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 3: it's happening, and you eventually realize that she's basically looking

791
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 3: for a new body to inhabit because the body that

792
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 3: she currently has is and this is what we were

793
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 3: alluding to as far as like the discussions we've had

794
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 3: about this trope. But it's like a woman who is

795
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 3: not young or thin is therefore disgusting. And the way

796
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 3: that like this character is designed where she's got like

797
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 3: extra appendages growing out of her it seems like there's

798
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 3: like a baby head like kind of drooping from her belly.

799
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 2: Oh, I was thinking about the baby hand on her arms. Oh,

800
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 2: there's a lot of extraneous Yeah.

801
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's like it's it almost seems like she's

802
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 3: like externally pregnant is the best way I could describe it.

803
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 3: Either way, Like she's she's just characterized as being this

804
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 3: grotesque hag and her goal here the reason this ritual

805
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 3: is happening, I don't know, Like it's so that she

806
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 3: can inhabit this new, thin, young body. Is it for

807
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 3: vanity reasons? Is it for just that she needs a

808
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 3: body that will like last longer so that she can

809
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 3: keep ruling as like mother suspiriorum.

810
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 2: That's sort of what I interpreted that as was like

811
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:23,879
Speaker 2: that she is trying I guess that that was going

812
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: with like how I was viewing the movie by like

813
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 2: how do I sustain We're weirdly we were talking abou.

814
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 2: I don't know why we were talking about the Star

815
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 2: Wars rebooths, but it's on like a similar thing with

816
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,359
Speaker 2: like Emperor Palpatine is like you need to go on

817
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 2: and like you know, he's kind of similarly characterizes very

818
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 2: very grotesque, although not in the same way he's wearing

819
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 2: a robe, but like is trying to maintain this immense

820
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: power that he has that not most people see or

821
00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 2: recognize by enlisting younger bodies. But then there's like I

822
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: think that, yeah, like the fact that this older body

823
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 2: is a woman's body that complicates things because there's like

824
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 2: the way that like any older woman's body has been

825
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 2: shown specifically, and horror tends to be really pointed, and like,

826
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 2: aren't older women's bodies horrific and therefore evil? Which is

827
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 2: like what we talked about in you know, when Jack

828
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 2: Nicholson sees an old lady's but in the Shining he

829
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 2: can't handle it. It's it's too evil stuff like that.

830
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 2: I don't know, like it's tricky, I I And then

831
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 2: with like younger women's bodies, I mean, I think that

832
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 2: the younger women in this movie don't have a lot

833
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: of power and like they h and it feels like this,

834
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: I don't know how like effectively it's done, But I

835
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 2: guess I don't know, like how the older women in

836
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 2: charge have the actual power, but they need to execute

837
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: it through the bodies of these younger women, which theoretically,

838
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 2: on a long enough timeline, these younger women will do

839
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:10,360
Speaker 2: two other younger women and it's like this, you know,

840
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: whole churning cycle of power and manipulation. Yeah, so that

841
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 2: or maybe that's mommy, I don't know, I'm not bad.

842
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 4: Well, there's mothers. There has to be daughters, I guess, right.

843
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:25,280
Speaker 2: Or children?

844
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yeah, of any gender but yeah, in this

845
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 3: case of this movie, it's like, yeah, the mother quote

846
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 3: unquote the mother generation and then like the daughter generation

847
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 3: and like the tension they'rein, which I do want to

848
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 3: talk about further. But so the thing with me for

849
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 3: this movie is that throughout the story there's this idea

850
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 3: of this dance company is a matriarchy. It's women looking

851
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 3: out for each other. It's like, you know, the mother

852
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 3: is nurturing this younger generation, and these witch are feminist

853
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,399
Speaker 3: icons where you get like lines of like when one

854
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 3: of the matrons is explaining to Susie that you know,

855
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 3: like you mentioned this already, Jamie, like at this company,

856
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 3: we understand the importance of a woman's financial autonomy. There's

857
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 3: a scene where Susie and Sarah are talking about Madame

858
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 3: Blanc and how she's awesome, and Sarah says, like, when

859
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 3: the Third Reich wanted to shut off women's minds and

860
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 3: keep their uteruses open, Madame Blanc was there to like

861
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 3: provide a safe space for women to have like freedom

862
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 3: and bodily on autonomy. The matrons b rate doctor Klamperer,

863
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 3: saying like you had years to get your wife out

864
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 3: of Berlin before she disappeared, like it's your fault that

865
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 3: your wife is dead. And then they also b rate

866
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 3: him for not believing women when they come to him

867
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 3: about like their concerns, and he instead, you know, says

868
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 3: they are delusional. So it sort of presents this idea

869
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 3: of like, wow, look at this matriarchy who's all about

870
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 3: women's autonomy and you know, believing women and women looking

871
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,919
Speaker 3: out for each other. But then like any woman who

872
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 3: doesn't want to be a part of the witch stuff

873
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 3: is imprisoned and tortured, and there's like this one true

874
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,839
Speaker 3: leader and if you don't pledge your undying loyalty to her,

875
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 3: she'll explode your head off. So there's like this power structure.

876
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 3: To me, it's like like even that scene where they're

877
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 3: hypnotizing and taunting the cops, who are the only other

878
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 3: two male characters besides doctor Klemper who have any kind

879
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 3: of like narrative significance, And it seems like on the

880
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 3: surface that could be some kind of like feminist win,

881
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,560
Speaker 3: but I don't know, Like me, they're.

882
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 4: Just having fun, Like I really good and it's kind

883
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 4: of nice to see what take some laugh. That was

884
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 4: like they had like the best time ever but I

885
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:06,759
Speaker 4: don't know if it was that.

886
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't know, Like women abusing men the

887
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 3: way that men have abused women is not feminism, as

888
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,920
Speaker 3: much as I like to goof around and joke that

889
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 3: it is. It's not. Like matriarchy is not just gender

890
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 3: swapped patriarchy. Like smashing the patriarchy doesn't mean we're going

891
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 3: to like replace it with an equally toxic and violent

892
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,800
Speaker 3: power structure, and like a power structure where some women

893
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,320
Speaker 3: have way more power than other women that they violently

894
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 3: wield over the women who have less power. Like, that's

895
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 3: not feminism, that's not matriarchy. So I don't know exactly

896
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 3: what the movie's trying to say. And I feel like

897
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 3: the director thought he was making a feminist movie, but

898
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 3: I just I feel like the takeaway from this movie

899
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 3: is everything you've heard about a group of women and

900
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 3: actually being a coven of witches, well that's true. And

901
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 3: a group of women, especially one who is like not

902
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 3: dependent on men in any way, that's something to be

903
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 3: feared because those women are evil and their power hungry.

904
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 3: They want power over the world, over men, and over

905
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 3: each other because women be petty, And that is my takeaway.

906
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 3: I am willing to entertain other reads of this movie,

907
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 3: because I do think you could look at this movie

908
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 3: and read it as a feminist text. But to me,

909
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 3: it's just like there are too many tropes of women

910
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 3: as evil witches present that I don't know what the

911
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 3: movie is doing to exactly challenge that that I come

912
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 3: down on the side of, Like, so, what's the point, Like,

913
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 3: what's the takeaway again?

914
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 4: I mean maybe I'm just I don't think it is

915
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 4: a feminist movie.

916
00:55:54,640 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 5: I wouldn't really bad. Yeah they're bad women and it's

917
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 5: a bad matriarchy. Yeah they're.

918
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not a feminist movie. I just still it

919
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 4: tracks for me all like a million levels, like actually

920
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 4: because my dearest.

921
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 5: Level, you know, And that's like kind of what I

922
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 5: see this movie, you know, like in a lot of ways,

923
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 5: you know, don't know.

924
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 4: I was just saying. When I came up, I was

925
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 4: a visual artist, and I was in New York and

926
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 4: worked for a lot of really amazing middle aged female

927
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 4: artists who were hella me. I mean, the meanness I

928
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 4: could ever be would like be like one tenth of

929
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 4: how mean they were, but they what they had to

930
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 4: get through to be even in the position they were

931
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 4: I was just like in awe of them and like

932
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,880
Speaker 4: whatever they you know, I really could identify with the

933
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 4: young dancer to the old woman thing. And you know,

934
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 4: I don't think the movie's feminist, but it's a it's

935
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 4: a it's an it's an experience. But like, I don't

936
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 4: think it has a point like you're saying, I don't

937
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 4: think we should be like, oh, this is really insightful

938
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,800
Speaker 4: about some you know, changing the face of feminist thought.

939
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 4: But it does sort of track with the timeframe of

940
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 4: what it's about women creativity, women artists that is potentially,

941
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 4: you know, at least I feel like it wasn't like

942
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 4: science fiction, so no, I mean.

943
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 3: Familiar. I guess I'm just like annoyed. This movie that

944
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 3: was written by a man and directed by a different

945
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 3: man has women valuing things like women's financial unbodily autonomy,

946
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 3: or at least saying that they value that on the surface,

947
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 3: and then like saying that people should believe women, and

948
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 3: then they turn around and they're like just kidding, which

949
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 3: also does happen where like people have a very like

950
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 3: public facing feminist persona, but then they turn around and

951
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 3: are like evil sexist capitalists and stuff. Like that, So

952
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:04,959
Speaker 3: I don't know.

953
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm just like, yeah, I guess I'm sort of

954
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 2: coming down somewhere in the middle here because I also

955
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 2: think that this, Yeah, I agree with you, Caitlin that

956
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 2: like the most evil characters in the movie saying the

957
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 2: most progressive things definitely does not bode well. I don't think,

958
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 2: and I would have I think appreciated. I think it

959
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 2: would have maybe made I don't know. First of all,

960
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 2: I cannot really tell what the intended effect was for

961
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 2: the writer and the director. I truly could not figure

962
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 2: out what they wanted me to take away from it,

963
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 2: which is fine, but I just couldn't tell. But yeah,

964
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 2: some of the most technically progressive statements in this movie

965
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 2: are made by who end up being the most evil characters,

966
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 2: and that is I guess it would have been. I

967
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 2: don't know, like I would have appreciated more of some

968
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:03,960
Speaker 2: sort of diversity of opinion among the older women and

969
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 2: if there was someone who had sort of like dissented

970
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 2: to the general like, because I think that existed in

971
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 2: a younger cast, where the younger women tend to feel

972
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 2: a variety of ways about a thing, the older woman

973
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 2: tend to sort of fall in line with the same thing,

974
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 2: and that sort of muddled the takeaway for me. The

975
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 2: thing that like really genuinely bothered me about the way

976
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 2: this movie ends. And maybe and I think that there

977
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 2: is some like worldly truth to this, but because the

978
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 2: end of the movie was so jumbled for me, I

979
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,400
Speaker 2: just didn't like it was that, you know, at the end,

980
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 2: in a way that is like knowingly self serving, Susie

981
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 2: goes to the six Flags guy and presents him absolution

982
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 2: and men in Black Memories apps him from the horrific

983
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 2: things that he has seen, and he, you know, receives

984
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 2: this sort of full arc of he learns this horrible

985
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 2: thing that has happened to his wife that he he's

986
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 2: clearly carrying a lot of guilt about. That seems to

987
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 2: be implied why he is attempting to help women, even

988
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 2: though he is applying rationality to an irrational world. All

989
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 2: this shit, right, But the fact that, yeah, that he's

990
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 2: the only character in the movie that gets that grace

991
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 2: and that absolution just in general bugged me. Maybe that

992
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 2: was the point though, maybe that's like, you know, men

993
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:30,040
Speaker 2: are extended a level of grace and absolution that women

994
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 2: are not. I don't know, really and maybe Susie was

995
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 2: just acting, you know, in the best interests to sustain

996
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 2: the coven and for someone on the outside to know

997
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 2: anything about the inside is bad for business, and so

998
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:47,400
Speaker 2: we're not going to do it. But that was the

999
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:50,120
Speaker 2: thing that like, I don't know, going out, especially because

1000
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 2: there's so many like characters inside of the dance studio

1001
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 2: that I feel like did not get a satisfactory arc

1002
01:00:58,040 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 2: to like go out of the way to give that

1003
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 2: to the literally the one male character in the movie

1004
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 2: and give him kind of like a happy Smiley ending.

1005
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 2: I just like that. That was the thing that really

1006
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 2: bugged me about the ending, Like do you.

1007
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 5: Think it's happy Smiley though if like he has no

1008
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 5: memory now of like his wife and like the love

1009
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 5: they shared, that's true, you know, I mean I don't know,

1010
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 5: Like to me, it's like the ending is prioritizing like

1011
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 5: the history you know, in the atmosphere, over the dance,

1012
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 5: you know, like over the witches, you know, like even

1013
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 5: essentially right, it's like reaching out like just you know,

1014
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 5: to me and my interpretation to like this like larger

1015
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:44,000
Speaker 5: metaphorical you know space that sort of like engages like

1016
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,560
Speaker 5: the you know, the whole like context and setting and

1017
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 5: the Holocaust and you know, all of it, you know,

1018
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 5: and so I mean, yeah, I think like that's kind

1019
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 5: of and and like I mean this in a caring way,

1020
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 5: because I appreciate, you know, sort of all of the

1021
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 5: larger historical contexts that come into the film, but I

1022
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 5: think that there is like this like essential like both

1023
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 5: wayseness that it's trying to have, you know, like like

1024
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 5: being sort of you know, like taking the story of

1025
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 5: like this coven and you know, this dance troup and

1026
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 5: these women that you know, like ultimately it has to

1027
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 5: leave them to serve that you know, kind of like

1028
01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 5: level I guess of like thematics.

1029
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1030
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 5: So so that that was kind of like my yeah,

1031
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 5: my thing with the ending, it's like I understand, but

1032
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 5: it also did feel like a historically male narrative choice,

1033
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 5: you know, to leave the female characters behind, you know,

1034
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 5: like in favor of capital h you know, history and

1035
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:52,960
Speaker 5: you know, yeah, just kind of like saying what we'll

1036
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 5: say about war.

1037
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,800
Speaker 4: I don't know. Yeah, I thought it was also maybe

1038
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 4: I was reading too much into it, but I thought

1039
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:02,520
Speaker 4: it was like some kind of like collective psyche that

1040
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 4: that guy like embodied of like being because he doesn't

1041
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,720
Speaker 4: really feel like a person. No one does in the movie.

1042
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 4: But you know, it's not like it's a realistic portrayal.

1043
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 4: It's so like stylized and heightened. But he, to me

1044
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 4: was like you know whatever. And Freud and I talk

1045
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 4: about Lacan like they're like deep into like European intellectual

1046
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 4: you know, theory within the film and they're letting you

1047
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 4: know that. But I think, like that's what I thought.

1048
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 4: It was some sort of like she's now maybe the

1049
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,400
Speaker 4: whatever her reign as you know, if you have to

1050
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 4: have the witches, she's gonna sort of coming in now

1051
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:43,840
Speaker 4: it's her thing. And it's like she seemed more benevolent

1052
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 4: because the other woman was clearly batshit, the one that

1053
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 4: she got rid of, like she maybe was the one

1054
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:53,720
Speaker 4: causing so much chaos and we don't choose a fraud, Yeah, right,

1055
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 4: that lady's the fraud. So when Dakota not Fan Johnson

1056
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 4: like put to you know, and clearly her mother was

1057
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 4: so fucking mean, which we didn't talk about at all,

1058
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 4: like whatever, that was that to you know for Alyssa,

1059
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 4: and I think that lady tracks the most from our world.

1060
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 4: The actual mother who's like cursing her one curses her daughter.

1061
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 4: It's on her death.

1062
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:20,920
Speaker 5: That was a real bummer. That was a real bummer

1063
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 5: for me.

1064
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a bummer. And so I just felt like, Okay,

1065
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 4: this girl is like gonna maybe bring upon this like

1066
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 4: more benevolent thing because she gets rid of all the

1067
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 4: people who voted the other girl. Oh, keeps her people

1068
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:39,439
Speaker 4: on and a bunch of those tags. Yeah, they seem

1069
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 4: like maybe the hags that were always kind of like you,

1070
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 4: they would always cut away to them like, oh no,

1071
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 4: what's she doing now? You know, the ones that lived

1072
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 4: through to the end, they seemed a little more suspicious

1073
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 4: of the original witch hag.

1074
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 5: Oh no, definitely, So maybe she's a better Yeah, Oh

1075
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 5: I think she is. I mean I do think that

1076
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 5: it's like about, you know, a sort of like come

1077
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 5: up and right to those in power who abused their power. Right,

1078
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 5: But I'm also just kind of wondering like what it

1079
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 5: says about, you know, like like secrecy is such a

1080
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 5: thing you know, sort of like within even like the building,

1081
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:21,400
Speaker 5: you know, and like the mirrors and like reflections and

1082
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 5: like who people literally are and lineage you know, with

1083
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 5: like the mother you know, and just sort of like, yeah,

1084
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:32,320
Speaker 5: where we came from being like so hidden, and.

1085
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 4: That's the whole lacon thing, right, It's like you see

1086
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:38,120
Speaker 4: your mother, you see yourself, and as it was saying

1087
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 4: on the camp where you see the mothers and daughters together,

1088
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:44,280
Speaker 4: and it's this weird funhouse mirror between the two. I mean,

1089
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,360
Speaker 4: the movie's not a feminist movie, but it's it's like

1090
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 4: they went for it in this movie, and I personally

1091
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 4: I like people who really go for it.

1092
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it did not hold back.

1093
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 4: And they they did not take the easy road here, No,

1094
01:05:58,360 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 4: they did not.

1095
01:05:58,920 --> 01:05:59,320
Speaker 5: They did not.

1096
01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's like, I don't know, it's so

1097
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 2: weird because it's like the stance, like he comes in

1098
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 2: at an eleven this entire movie. But I'm still that's something.

1099
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 2: But there are still whole sequences where I'm like not

1100
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 2: sure what he's trying to say. I like that, Like

1101
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 2: with this psychiatrist, I don't know, Like I liked a

1102
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 2: lot of what was going on with him until the

1103
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 2: very end. The ending I just found frustrating. But towards

1104
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 2: the beginning it's clear that he's like trying to like

1105
01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:34,720
Speaker 2: apply this very like I guess new Ish European psychological

1106
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 2: standard to his patients that is not working because Patricia

1107
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 2: is telling the truth and he's like, well, you just

1108
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 2: have issues with your mom, and so like let's work

1109
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 2: this out, which I think is like an issue I

1110
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 2: have with my therapist as recently as tomorrow. Sometimes I'm like,

1111
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:57,600
Speaker 2: I hear you, but it can't just be that, like

1112
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:00,680
Speaker 2: we cannot just keep going back to my mind, you know.

1113
01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 2: I think he's like applying a lot of theory to

1114
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 2: patients who are kind of just telling him what is

1115
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 2: happening to them. And I thought that that worked, and

1116
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 2: I like that he's sort of like his come up

1117
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 2: and being forced to witness the reality of what Patricia

1118
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 2: was telling him in the first scene of the movie

1119
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 2: felt appropriate and like, you know.

1120
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 5: Almost feels feminist, right Like like at that moment, I'm like, okay,

1121
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 5: you know, like I think it does, you know, approach

1122
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 5: it in moments I.

1123
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:35,920
Speaker 2: Think part of my.

1124
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 5: Like I don't want to say, you know, like I

1125
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 5: want to appreciate it on its own terms, right, you know,

1126
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:46,720
Speaker 5: like not everything is you know, like a vehicle for

1127
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 5: feminist theory. But I think what's so frustrating to me

1128
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:52,080
Speaker 5: about the movie is like it's so easily could have

1129
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:55,960
Speaker 5: been right, Like there are so many you know kind

1130
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 5: of like moments and windows and avenues that you know,

1131
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 5: like do get it right or you know, do point out.

1132
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 5: I mean it's also like a really fun takeaway, you

1133
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 5: know that like in you know, nineteen seventy seven, like

1134
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:12,680
Speaker 5: Berlin like to be as evil as a patriarchy, like

1135
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 5: to get enough power where you can like express that

1136
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:18,120
Speaker 5: power and be that evil, like you literally have to

1137
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 5: be supernatural witches. Like it's the only way you know

1138
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 5: that like women can like amass that much power, you know,

1139
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 5: and that much like independence and you know, financial freedom

1140
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:29,800
Speaker 5: and et cetera, et cetera. You know, I think like

1141
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:33,000
Speaker 5: there are a lot of like feminist vectors right in

1142
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 5: the movie. So I mean I think like maybe like

1143
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 5: that was kind of one of my peeves, I guess,

1144
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:41,680
Speaker 5: you know, at certain points where I thought it was

1145
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:43,439
Speaker 5: like gonna you know, like realize this.

1146
01:08:44,360 --> 01:08:45,919
Speaker 2: And then it doesn't.

1147
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 5: But I do feel like it's also kind of like

1148
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:57,600
Speaker 5: saying you know, something interesting about history and atonement, you know,

1149
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:02,840
Speaker 5: or even just kind of like validation of kind of

1150
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 5: yeah witness and hollowed out counts, you know, like I mean,

1151
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 5: it's bringing good stuff to the table in other ways.

1152
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 2: In other ways it felt like, I guess at the end,

1153
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,559
Speaker 2: I felt like the what this movie seemed like it

1154
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:20,960
Speaker 2: was trying to say about history and what this movie

1155
01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:24,200
Speaker 2: was trying to say at different points about women felt

1156
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 2: like it got kind of muddled and jumbled, which I

1157
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 2: guess is true of the world. But it is a movie,

1158
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 2: and so I was just sort of like, it felt like,

1159
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:37,759
Speaker 2: you know, there was it was like the culmination of

1160
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:42,920
Speaker 2: this psychiatrist's view of his women patients that comes true

1161
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 2: when he's forced to witness it, but the way that

1162
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 2: his arc resolves is more related to history and less

1163
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 2: related to the other stuff. And it just felt like

1164
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:53,720
Speaker 2: I just was frustrated by it. But I get that,

1165
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:57,720
Speaker 2: you know, like everyone will feel yeah.

1166
01:09:57,160 --> 01:09:59,200
Speaker 4: Well, I mean the other thing is I mean I

1167
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 4: was reading little bit about them. How the second one

1168
01:10:02,240 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 4: came to pass and it took It was in development

1169
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 4: for a very long time. First of all, this is

1170
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:09,760
Speaker 4: not like a slam dunk movie to make. It was,

1171
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:12,679
Speaker 4: you know, and it made no money, so clearly they

1172
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:15,639
Speaker 4: were you know, had some problems. But it was originally

1173
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 4: David Gordon Green was going to direct this, which is

1174
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 4: like mind numbingly confusing to me. Even though I really

1175
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:24,559
Speaker 4: love David Gordon Green, I just don't. I don't somehow

1176
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:26,920
Speaker 4: get it. And that would have been fascinating to see.

1177
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:29,800
Speaker 4: But I mean, the people who did make this movie, like,

1178
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:33,599
Speaker 4: did choose to make an entirely female cast of this movie.

1179
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:37,439
Speaker 4: That's whatever you want to say about the context of

1180
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 4: what it is. That's a choice, that's an unusual choice.

1181
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:43,680
Speaker 4: And then again, I'm going to harken back to the

1182
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 4: whole concept of like female creativity. I think, like there's

1183
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:50,080
Speaker 4: you know, and my one of my daughters is an athlete.

1184
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:53,880
Speaker 4: There's so few movies about female creativity and female athletes.

1185
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 4: I'm considering how many movies are about male creativity. It's

1186
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:02,320
Speaker 4: like it's mind blowing to me and would have been

1187
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:04,120
Speaker 4: interesting if a woman made this movie. I'm sure it

1188
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:07,080
Speaker 4: would have been. But I think it's still an odd

1189
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 4: choice for anyone to want to make a movie about

1190
01:11:10,439 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 4: this much about you know, with this whole women cast.

1191
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:17,479
Speaker 4: You know, it is like whether or not it's a

1192
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 4: feminist movie. There certainly tried to make something. They tried

1193
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 4: to do something. They took some big swings here, and

1194
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 4: I don't think it was. I think I don't know.

1195
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 4: I think that's interesting, like if they had that, these

1196
01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 4: were the people that got the script, which this guy

1197
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:36,439
Speaker 4: like got Argento to give them the rights to the

1198
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:39,160
Speaker 4: movie to make it, you know, I don't, I don't know.

1199
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:42,200
Speaker 4: I mean, Dario Argento is way problematic. We haven't gotten

1200
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 4: into it, but in terms of his own personal behavior,

1201
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 4: which I is, you know, slightly more upsetting than the film,

1202
01:11:50,320 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 4: I guess, but yeah, anyway, Yeah, well.

1203
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:55,960
Speaker 5: I mean another reason I had, you know, like another

1204
01:11:56,080 --> 01:11:58,120
Speaker 5: soft spot I guess, you know that I have for

1205
01:11:58,360 --> 01:12:00,800
Speaker 5: the movie. That's you know, kind of like one of

1206
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:04,320
Speaker 5: my own like problematic trials.

1207
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:04,760
Speaker 4: I guess.

1208
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:07,680
Speaker 5: I guess a creative is like how you represent you know,

1209
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:11,920
Speaker 5: female like evil and female violence without you know, falling

1210
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:14,960
Speaker 5: into like stereotype and trope, you know, and things that

1211
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 5: like reinforce messages that are out there you know that

1212
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:21,320
Speaker 5: are are already very harmful and you know, have historically

1213
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:23,320
Speaker 5: been very harmful.

1214
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:24,240
Speaker 2: You know like that.

1215
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, that that's just something like I'm really interested in

1216
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 5: and that I struggle with a lot. So I mean,

1217
01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:34,880
Speaker 5: I guess like I also appreciate both sides of that struggle.

1218
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:39,000
Speaker 2: M right. It makes me I want to go back

1219
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:41,720
Speaker 2: to something I think, Alison, you were talking about it

1220
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:47,800
Speaker 2: earlier about sort of the complicated and generally bummer with

1221
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 2: you alyssa message around or just around Susie's specifically arc

1222
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:59,479
Speaker 2: with mothers and motherhood that goes back to me for

1223
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 2: another I guess, like chafing, I was having with how

1224
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 2: this movie portrays witches because I feel like there's a

1225
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:13,200
Speaker 2: few different examples in arcs in this movie where we're

1226
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:19,559
Speaker 2: seeing this horrible thing happened between Susie's mother and Susie,

1227
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:23,360
Speaker 2: where Susie's mother is saying that her youngest daughter is

1228
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 2: this agent of Satan, that she is her sin, that

1229
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:28,920
Speaker 2: this is the worst thing that's ever happened to her,

1230
01:13:29,120 --> 01:13:32,040
Speaker 2: which is essentially like it. You're led to believe Susie's

1231
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:35,679
Speaker 2: been at least emotionally abused, and it's also implied physically

1232
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:39,080
Speaker 2: abused for most of her childhood, which makes total sense.

1233
01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:40,799
Speaker 2: You want to get the fuck out of the country

1234
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 2: if that were the case. But then at the end,

1235
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:47,800
Speaker 2: Cuzie's mother is kind of like quote unquote proven right,

1236
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:51,920
Speaker 2: because actually Susie has been an agent of Satan. This

1237
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 2: whole time she is evil and she is horrible, and

1238
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:57,639
Speaker 2: so you're like, well, what is that trying to say?

1239
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 2: If we're shown this horrific parent child dynamic and then

1240
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:06,000
Speaker 2: at the end the abusive parent is correct, Like, it's

1241
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:08,120
Speaker 2: just bizarre to me. I like couldn't get my head

1242
01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:08,599
Speaker 2: around it.

1243
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 4: Okay, I thought it. And again I'm just my own

1244
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:15,640
Speaker 4: like dark sided soul in my own experience. But I

1245
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:21,000
Speaker 4: read it as Susie is an artist, right, Susie's dancer,

1246
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:24,679
Speaker 4: Susie's this artist person growing up in like some kind

1247
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 4: of I don't know what that was, honest, Menon, menonit right,

1248
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:31,600
Speaker 4: mennonit thing. And you know, I had parents who were like,

1249
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:33,439
Speaker 4: you want to be a what you know, you're going

1250
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:35,639
Speaker 4: to be an artist? Like, you know, just this real

1251
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:39,240
Speaker 4: like negative super And again I don't know how how

1252
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:41,880
Speaker 4: bad she is a bee the you know, we could

1253
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:44,760
Speaker 4: agree to disagree on that one. But to me, I

1254
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:48,360
Speaker 4: don't know, Maybe you know, they just couldn't handle her

1255
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:53,080
Speaker 4: levels of like ambition and creativity back there in Ohio,

1256
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:56,320
Speaker 4: you know, but maybe I'm just you know, that's just

1257
01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:57,800
Speaker 4: the way my brain goes on it.

1258
01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:03,400
Speaker 3: Alternatively, is it the abuse that Susie endured from her

1259
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:08,680
Speaker 3: mother that led her to become the witch she now is, Like,

1260
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:11,680
Speaker 3: did she start out as like a well, because I

1261
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:15,439
Speaker 3: do want to examine Susie and her arc more closely,

1262
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:20,639
Speaker 3: because like we meet her, we see her. I don't

1263
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:23,320
Speaker 3: know if she's like tending to her sick mother, but

1264
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 3: she's like sitting by her bedside, and I feel like

1265
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:30,800
Speaker 3: the movie maybe I'm just sort of like reading into this,

1266
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:33,360
Speaker 3: but I feel like it's implied that the reason her

1267
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:35,960
Speaker 3: mother is ill is because Susie has been making her

1268
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:40,720
Speaker 3: ill with her like witchcraft this whole time. That's not

1269
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:43,599
Speaker 3: clearly stated one way or the other. But anyway we

1270
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:47,879
Speaker 3: meet Susie, she is set up to be this, you know, innocent.

1271
01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:53,759
Speaker 3: She's pretty shy, quiet, she's kind of awkward. She comes

1272
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 3: from this Mennonite family, the implication being that she has

1273
01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:02,600
Speaker 3: lived a pretty sheltered and modist life. But then she

1274
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:05,880
Speaker 3: comes to Berlin. She's like at the dance school for

1275
01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:09,519
Speaker 3: a day and she's like, hang on a minute, I

1276
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:12,479
Speaker 3: can dance the lead in this thing. Because I saw

1277
01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:16,240
Speaker 3: a documentary about it. I went to the library and

1278
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 3: watched it one hundred times.

1279
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:20,439
Speaker 2: Was like me when I was starting stand up there,

1280
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:21,679
Speaker 2: so be careful.

1281
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 3: I'm not judging her.

1282
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:25,679
Speaker 2: I just think I can do this because I watched

1283
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 2: it on TV. I thinks a lot of the I mean,

1284
01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:29,679
Speaker 2: I think that that is like a lot of young

1285
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:33,200
Speaker 2: artists where it's like, especially if you are Susie and

1286
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:37,479
Speaker 2: you grow up with very little access to art like souls,

1287
01:16:37,520 --> 01:16:39,120
Speaker 2: do you learn you want to be an artist other

1288
01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:42,280
Speaker 2: than watching it and whatever's available?

1289
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:45,840
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, I'm not passing anywhere or help you.

1290
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:47,800
Speaker 2: Chats to you about it at night.

1291
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, Alyssa. Alyssa grew up in a very religious household

1292
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:55,040
Speaker 4: that as an artist. Yes, so that you know, did

1293
01:16:55,040 --> 01:16:58,599
Speaker 4: you how did you feel for Susie escaping?

1294
01:16:59,560 --> 01:16:59,680
Speaker 2: Like?

1295
01:16:59,720 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 4: You know?

1296
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:04,960
Speaker 5: So I think that there can be a Okay, I

1297
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:09,000
Speaker 5: don't know that this is like the right opinion to have.

1298
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna lay it out there.

1299
01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 2: Let's go on the assumption that it is.

1300
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:15,040
Speaker 4: Well, it isn't.

1301
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:20,559
Speaker 5: Like there was something kind of refreshing about seeing like

1302
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:24,679
Speaker 5: the that you know twist and that reversal leaned into

1303
01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:28,720
Speaker 5: like in a way that like exists completely outside of

1304
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:32,479
Speaker 5: like religious propaganda, you know what I mean, Like just

1305
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:35,559
Speaker 5: like to to be like yeah, you know that this

1306
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:39,479
Speaker 5: was actually like true, and you know, like maybe all

1307
01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:43,760
Speaker 5: of those assumptions right that we have about you know,

1308
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:46,960
Speaker 5: like our like willingness to kind of like see this

1309
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:52,439
Speaker 5: you know, young woman as a victim, YadA YadA, you

1310
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:56,800
Speaker 5: know how in your face like I know that that's

1311
01:17:57,000 --> 01:18:01,719
Speaker 5: that's kind of like an overdone and and like dirty trick.

1312
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:05,679
Speaker 5: But I don't know, I mean there's just something about

1313
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:08,720
Speaker 5: like going for it at eleven, like you say that,

1314
01:18:09,400 --> 01:18:11,320
Speaker 5: I don't know what kind of interested me. And I

1315
01:18:11,439 --> 01:18:13,760
Speaker 5: liked thinking back then on the movie, you know and

1316
01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:16,200
Speaker 5: being like okay, well was I seeing you know, like

1317
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:19,040
Speaker 5: how was I seeing this? And like how would I

1318
01:18:19,160 --> 01:18:22,200
Speaker 5: see it if actually like she was a vehicle for

1319
01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:25,479
Speaker 5: seeing this full time, you know, or like actually like

1320
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 5: she was tuning into this or you know, like her

1321
01:18:27,920 --> 01:18:30,800
Speaker 5: mom did see you know this this in her or

1322
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:33,160
Speaker 5: this was her life, or you know she wanted to

1323
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:35,840
Speaker 5: be here for like all of these different reasons, or

1324
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 5: she was lying to her friend when we thought that

1325
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:42,040
Speaker 5: she was you know, being like completely honest and vulnerable,

1326
01:18:42,360 --> 01:18:44,400
Speaker 5: like I don't know, you know, it was just kind

1327
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:46,960
Speaker 5: of a fun little like rewind and I don't know

1328
01:18:47,040 --> 01:18:49,599
Speaker 5: that that I don't know that that you know, even

1329
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:54,240
Speaker 5: like led to like a good read of the movie.

1330
01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:57,559
Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean I do. I mean I

1331
01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:02,120
Speaker 2: think that like something like a huge difference between The

1332
01:19:02,479 --> 01:19:05,280
Speaker 2: Argentle One and this one that I liked was that

1333
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 2: like in the Argentle One, Susie is like the like

1334
01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:12,600
Speaker 2: American girl next door character. You you are sort of

1335
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:16,280
Speaker 2: like led to believe she's inherently trustworthy because she is

1336
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:20,120
Speaker 2: like young and pretty and white and from America, and

1337
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:22,599
Speaker 2: so you're like, well, yeah, sure, this is a little

1338
01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:25,920
Speaker 2: sweety pie. I trust her, And I like that the

1339
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:29,679
Speaker 2: that the twenty eighteen one is like, yeah, I did

1340
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:33,360
Speaker 2: sort of assume that of the Dakota Johnson character when

1341
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:36,160
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, she's just a little girl from Ohio,

1342
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:39,519
Speaker 2: like she's out of her element, and and to like

1343
01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 2: give her more intention and more power than I had,

1344
01:19:45,479 --> 01:19:49,599
Speaker 2: like it challenged whatever my assumption of that character. And

1345
01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:52,479
Speaker 2: that was cool because it's like, you know, not every

1346
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 2: and and like this movie, I'm all over the place

1347
01:19:56,240 --> 01:19:58,639
Speaker 2: about it. But this movie does clearly have an interest

1348
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:02,120
Speaker 2: in the idea of like what purity is and what

1349
01:20:02,160 --> 01:20:04,960
Speaker 2: it means, because it's something that comes up over and

1350
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,880
Speaker 2: over and over. And one of the things that like

1351
01:20:08,360 --> 01:20:11,120
Speaker 2: was I think like easiest to get rid of from

1352
01:20:11,120 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 2: the seventies one is like there's sort of a vague

1353
01:20:13,360 --> 01:20:17,000
Speaker 2: implication of like a love interest for Susy from a

1354
01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:20,960
Speaker 2: male dancer because it's an all genders dance studio in

1355
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:23,240
Speaker 2: the first one, and they get rid of that really quickly.

1356
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:26,720
Speaker 2: But I don't know, just like the idea that like

1357
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 2: being involved in this coven in a meaningful way also

1358
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:34,519
Speaker 2: has to do with some sort of purity, and that's

1359
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:38,599
Speaker 2: kept pretty vague. You don't know like what you need

1360
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:42,040
Speaker 2: to be pure of or about. But it felt like

1361
01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:45,320
Speaker 2: the twenty eighteen one had some interest in the idea

1362
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:47,720
Speaker 2: of purity. I'm not really sure where it fell, but

1363
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:50,120
Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting that it brought that idea up,

1364
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:52,720
Speaker 2: because that was something that in the first one I

1365
01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:56,120
Speaker 2: felt was like assumed and very much like played on

1366
01:20:56,160 --> 01:21:00,639
Speaker 2: your assumptions about who you're looking at. Where esca Harper

1367
01:21:00,720 --> 01:21:03,320
Speaker 2: character you're like, oh, yeah, sure, I trust.

1368
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:06,080
Speaker 4: Her, And this one too, there was no like exploitation.

1369
01:21:06,240 --> 01:21:09,080
Speaker 4: I didn't feel of their sexuality at all, like male

1370
01:21:09,160 --> 01:21:12,400
Speaker 4: gaze women sexuality, like whatever was going on with them

1371
01:21:12,439 --> 01:21:17,680
Speaker 4: sexually which was something quite vague, was also something very internal,

1372
01:21:18,080 --> 01:21:22,160
Speaker 4: which I can you know, I'm there for that, you know,

1373
01:21:22,280 --> 01:21:26,840
Speaker 4: like it had nothing to do with almost other the sexuality,

1374
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:32,439
Speaker 4: and this film is very self generated and not that much,

1375
01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:37,800
Speaker 4: which is really rare when that many beautiful women like

1376
01:21:38,400 --> 01:21:42,920
Speaker 4: naked in a film. I can't really think of another

1377
01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:47,760
Speaker 4: that didn't even broach that barely. I don't know.

1378
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:48,559
Speaker 2: I like that a lot.

1379
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:50,639
Speaker 4: And whatever. We didn't talk at all about the dreams

1380
01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:53,200
Speaker 4: that she's having, which I thought were really cool visually,

1381
01:21:54,040 --> 01:21:56,720
Speaker 4: whatever that is in this light and whatever, the like

1382
01:21:57,120 --> 01:22:01,120
Speaker 4: indoctrination thing that there's spell they're putting on her. I

1383
01:22:01,120 --> 01:22:03,160
Speaker 4: don't know. I really enjoyed that. And that again was

1384
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:09,200
Speaker 4: whatever this like auto sexuality that's happening. I don't know.

1385
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:12,519
Speaker 4: I thought that was very unique to this film.

1386
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:16,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, because so well, I brought up the like her

1387
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:19,240
Speaker 3: she's like I can do it, because I watched a

1388
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:24,400
Speaker 3: documentary just to demonstrate that. She's very confident and she's like,

1389
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:26,519
Speaker 3: so for her to be like, yeah, I can dance

1390
01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:29,160
Speaker 3: the lead and it turns out she's right. I mean,

1391
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:34,479
Speaker 3: she ends up being the best dancer it's implied at

1392
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:37,840
Speaker 3: the company, and which just feels, I guess, like kind

1393
01:22:37,840 --> 01:22:41,320
Speaker 3: of foreshadowing of what's to come. As far as like twist,

1394
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:46,200
Speaker 3: I'm mother suspiriorum and I have been all along, but

1395
01:22:46,479 --> 01:22:48,800
Speaker 3: I just, like you were saying, Jamie, like playing to

1396
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:53,760
Speaker 3: people's expectations of like a you know, a soft spoken,

1397
01:22:54,800 --> 01:23:02,439
Speaker 3: quiet woman being trustworthy and just apparently nice and the

1398
01:23:02,479 --> 01:23:05,240
Speaker 3: person we're going to root for. I feel like was

1399
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:09,800
Speaker 3: set up to better serve the twist that she's actually

1400
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 3: the meanest witch of them all. But is she the

1401
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:18,080
Speaker 3: meanest because she does like show compassion to you know,

1402
01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:22,920
Speaker 3: Sarah and Patricia and Olga who are like begging for

1403
01:23:23,760 --> 01:23:27,519
Speaker 3: death and she's like, yeah, babe, got you, no problem.

1404
01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:32,360
Speaker 2: May we all have a friend so merciful to provide

1405
01:23:32,360 --> 01:23:33,360
Speaker 2: the sweet release of death?

1406
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:34,800
Speaker 5: Right?

1407
01:23:35,240 --> 01:23:37,720
Speaker 3: So I don't even know if I have any kind

1408
01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:40,240
Speaker 3: of like conclusive thoughts on this, as far as like

1409
01:23:40,240 --> 01:23:44,680
Speaker 3: the way Susie is portrayed and her arc and the

1410
01:23:44,680 --> 01:23:49,320
Speaker 3: way she's initially characterized versus like her coming into her

1411
01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:53,320
Speaker 3: own power, and like you were talking about Alison, like

1412
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:58,800
Speaker 3: her sexuality in a way that is completely separate from men,

1413
01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:02,960
Speaker 3: and it's just like her kind of having sex with

1414
01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:08,519
Speaker 3: the ground sometimes like kind of writhing around and just

1415
01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:11,439
Speaker 3: sort of fucking the ground here and there. And then

1416
01:24:11,479 --> 01:24:14,760
Speaker 3: there's that scene where I mean we've all done.

1417
01:24:15,920 --> 01:24:17,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean if you get too close to a

1418
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:20,880
Speaker 2: dryer and it's in heat, a dryer in.

1419
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:25,800
Speaker 3: Heat, Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then there's like that scene

1420
01:24:26,080 --> 01:24:32,559
Speaker 3: that conversation between Madame Blanc and Susie where where Madame

1421
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:36,360
Speaker 3: Blanc is like, how did it feel to dance? And

1422
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:39,880
Speaker 3: She's like it felt like what I imagine it feels like

1423
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 3: to fuck? And she's like, oh, like to fuck a

1424
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:47,400
Speaker 3: man And Susie's like, no, I was thinking of an animal,

1425
01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:51,360
Speaker 3: which I don't quite know how to inter.

1426
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:55,639
Speaker 4: That's that's my language. I was like in it with that,

1427
01:24:55,800 --> 01:24:58,439
Speaker 4: like I was way more interested than if it was

1428
01:24:58,479 --> 01:24:59,880
Speaker 4: about fucking a man, Like.

1429
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:02,959
Speaker 5: Thank god, yeah, like that's a redemption.

1430
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure, we.

1431
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:05,880
Speaker 4: All know that.

1432
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:09,920
Speaker 5: I feel like, yeah, I don't know, and I mean, like,

1433
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:14,320
Speaker 5: let me just say something else awful, Like they're like,

1434
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:17,840
Speaker 5: there's so I just as a viewer, you know, now,

1435
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:20,000
Speaker 5: it's like I see so many things that you know,

1436
01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:24,360
Speaker 5: in a good way, you know, are are trying not

1437
01:25:24,640 --> 01:25:30,559
Speaker 5: to equate female sexuality with you know, being like out

1438
01:25:30,640 --> 01:25:34,360
Speaker 5: of control or you know, morally wrong that like sometimes

1439
01:25:34,439 --> 01:25:37,479
Speaker 5: it's just maybe especially like in like if you can't

1440
01:25:37,479 --> 01:25:39,679
Speaker 5: do it in Horror. I don't know, Like in Horror,

1441
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:42,960
Speaker 5: I think sometimes it's just fun that like you're really

1442
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:46,000
Speaker 5: horny because of the devil. I was raised Catholic, Like

1443
01:25:46,120 --> 01:25:48,559
Speaker 5: I don't know, but like for me, that was just

1444
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:51,960
Speaker 5: kind of like yeah, you know, like you you leave

1445
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:54,960
Speaker 5: the farm, you know, like you get the devil and

1446
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:57,840
Speaker 5: like then like you know, you are like an erotic

1447
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:02,880
Speaker 5: fucking dancer, you know, and I mean like they they

1448
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:07,360
Speaker 5: are dancing like so fucking erotically. Yeah, yeah, like maybe

1449
01:26:07,400 --> 01:26:10,840
Speaker 5: because of Satan and I just enjoyed that.

1450
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:16,600
Speaker 3: Sorry so sorry, no, no, I'm just processed it.

1451
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:21,080
Speaker 4: We're pretty dark sided. So like you know, you just

1452
01:26:21,400 --> 01:26:24,400
Speaker 4: you should have known who you were discussing this movie.

1453
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:27,240
Speaker 4: We should have done truth beverly because it would have

1454
01:26:27,280 --> 01:26:29,040
Speaker 4: been a much better take.

1455
01:26:29,200 --> 01:26:30,720
Speaker 2: We would have had a had it little do.

1456
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:33,920
Speaker 3: You know that? I am mothers.

1457
01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:40,680
Speaker 5: Spira, You are the hollowest comfortable.

1458
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:44,559
Speaker 3: Thank you finally somewhere welcome. I admitted it.

1459
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:47,759
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that's like, especially with scenes

1460
01:26:47,800 --> 01:26:51,519
Speaker 2: about sex and purity, there's like a bajillion ways to

1461
01:26:51,560 --> 01:26:53,559
Speaker 2: look at it, some of which I think are really

1462
01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:57,280
Speaker 2: horny and cool, and then it's like others are not,

1463
01:26:57,600 --> 01:26:59,840
Speaker 2: and and that's part of why it's a movie and

1464
01:26:59,840 --> 01:27:01,280
Speaker 2: you can see it however you want.

1465
01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:04,760
Speaker 5: But it's on the costumes help, Like I I mean,

1466
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:07,760
Speaker 5: I think they're like show Girls level, you know what

1467
01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:09,920
Speaker 5: I mean, Like I feel like too, if you're like

1468
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:12,720
Speaker 5: sexy and like an interesting enough costume.

1469
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:14,040
Speaker 3: This is just me.

1470
01:27:14,240 --> 01:27:17,280
Speaker 5: I just feel like you like transcend gate like somehow

1471
01:27:17,320 --> 01:27:19,840
Speaker 5: you just like you go outside of like the like

1472
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:23,960
Speaker 5: normal realm of just kind of like sex objectness.

1473
01:27:24,080 --> 01:27:26,439
Speaker 4: And even the middle aged woman as a middle aged

1474
01:27:26,479 --> 01:27:30,800
Speaker 4: women were really sexy too in this movie, in a

1475
01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:35,519
Speaker 4: completely unusual take on you know, no plastic surgery, no

1476
01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:38,479
Speaker 4: like I'm trying to look young but I'm actually sixty

1477
01:27:38,560 --> 01:27:41,600
Speaker 4: years old. Like they were all kind of sexy and

1478
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:46,439
Speaker 4: this really fun different I don't know European people get

1479
01:27:46,479 --> 01:27:50,360
Speaker 4: to do that or something way that I was personally

1480
01:27:50,479 --> 01:27:53,519
Speaker 4: very impressed by and got some maybe style tips like

1481
01:27:53,680 --> 01:27:58,320
Speaker 4: again for the age, super cool and you know, I

1482
01:27:58,320 --> 01:27:59,479
Speaker 4: don't know, I thought they were.

1483
01:27:59,720 --> 01:28:02,880
Speaker 2: It's all about the middle part, baby middle part, Yeah,

1484
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:05,639
Speaker 2: I mean it's because I read I tried to read

1485
01:28:05,800 --> 01:28:10,280
Speaker 2: a fair like swath of criticism and praise of this movie,

1486
01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 2: and I read some writers who came down firmly that

1487
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:21,280
Speaker 2: the way that Susie's sexual awakening is framed kind of

1488
01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:25,320
Speaker 2: plays into tropes of how women's sexuality is seen as

1489
01:28:26,000 --> 01:28:31,280
Speaker 2: dangerous and devious, and how like women's confidence is seen

1490
01:28:31,360 --> 01:28:35,680
Speaker 2: as like inherently bad. If you view the ending as

1491
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:38,600
Speaker 2: Susie being inherently bad, but you can also see it

1492
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:42,160
Speaker 2: in a way that's like really fucking cool, and a

1493
01:28:42,200 --> 01:28:44,599
Speaker 2: way that the fact that, like the way that sex

1494
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:48,439
Speaker 2: is or even just like horniness in general in this

1495
01:28:48,479 --> 01:28:53,160
Speaker 2: movie is shown is very like individual, like no one

1496
01:28:53,479 --> 01:28:56,679
Speaker 2: is hooking up at all, like the way that people

1497
01:28:56,800 --> 01:29:00,479
Speaker 2: view sex like they're fucking themselves and they're fucking the ground.

1498
01:29:00,560 --> 01:29:06,479
Speaker 2: It's like women figuring out sex in a very individual way,

1499
01:29:06,520 --> 01:29:08,439
Speaker 2: which you don't really see a lot, and like I

1500
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:11,080
Speaker 2: kind of I don't know, it's kind of fun to

1501
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:15,760
Speaker 2: see a gorgeous woman fuck the ground. I liked that part,

1502
01:29:16,160 --> 01:29:18,040
Speaker 2: but then I read criticism of it, and I was like,

1503
01:29:18,160 --> 01:29:20,639
Speaker 2: was I wrong for liking the part where Dakota Johnson

1504
01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:23,439
Speaker 2: fucked the ground and I was like, no, I'm not No,

1505
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:24,920
Speaker 2: two things can be true.

1506
01:29:25,160 --> 01:29:28,519
Speaker 4: We're all I didn't read any criticism of the movie,

1507
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:29,760
Speaker 4: but I will say no.

1508
01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:31,720
Speaker 2: I will say no. I have a quote here. I

1509
01:29:31,960 --> 01:29:35,439
Speaker 2: wanted to share it because I was looking for sort

1510
01:29:35,479 --> 01:29:38,639
Speaker 2: of like if there was any sort of thesis statement

1511
01:29:38,960 --> 01:29:43,840
Speaker 2: that Luca Guagnino had made about this movie, about what

1512
01:29:43,880 --> 01:29:47,320
Speaker 2: we were talking about specifically, And there was an interview

1513
01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:49,200
Speaker 2: he did when the movie around, when the movie came

1514
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:53,160
Speaker 2: out on movie that sort of addresses this, and it

1515
01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:58,800
Speaker 2: also addresses his hyspiia in relation to Argento's suspiria. So

1516
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:04,479
Speaker 2: this for the room. He says this in twenty eighteen quote.

1517
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:07,439
Speaker 2: The focus of Dario's movie was the idea of older

1518
01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:11,080
Speaker 2: women recruiting younger women. The relationship between the girls and

1519
01:30:11,120 --> 01:30:13,840
Speaker 2: the matrons of My Dance Academy is quite different, as

1520
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:17,080
Speaker 2: they are terrible mothers aside from casting their magic spells

1521
01:30:17,560 --> 01:30:21,320
Speaker 2: ideal in the concept of the uncompromising force of motherhood,

1522
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:25,680
Speaker 2: a mother is supposed to be caring, nurturing, unbiased, and devoted.

1523
01:30:25,960 --> 01:30:28,960
Speaker 2: But what if that is all our own prejudgment? Even

1524
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 2: if you are the most radical person you think of

1525
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:34,840
Speaker 2: motherhood adhering to accepted norms, but real danger lies in

1526
01:30:34,880 --> 01:30:38,480
Speaker 2: that presumption, as motherhood comes from deep conflict, the banality

1527
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:42,000
Speaker 2: of postpartum depression, the refusal to bond with the child,

1528
01:30:42,320 --> 01:30:45,479
Speaker 2: and the complexity of the relationship between mother and daughter

1529
01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:49,040
Speaker 2: that can often turn into a competition. If you make

1530
01:30:49,080 --> 01:30:52,160
Speaker 2: a movie about witches, basically a group of women bound

1531
01:30:52,160 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 2: to a pact of solidarity and sorority with power within themselves,

1532
01:30:56,439 --> 01:30:58,599
Speaker 2: you have to be open to the possibility that they

1533
01:30:58,640 --> 01:31:02,040
Speaker 2: aren't just simple evil care characters. They are very complex

1534
01:31:02,080 --> 01:31:06,600
Speaker 2: ones and it's not all about nature and nurture unquote.

1535
01:31:06,800 --> 01:31:11,800
Speaker 2: So that's what I've got with Luca and the girlies.

1536
01:31:12,479 --> 01:31:13,960
Speaker 5: I wish I hadn't heard that.

1537
01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:19,880
Speaker 4: Also, Yeah, that's I really usually read absolutely nothing about movies,

1538
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:22,040
Speaker 4: and I don't like to read what people say about it.

1539
01:31:22,040 --> 01:31:26,439
Speaker 4: But yeah, no, that's not less interesting than my thoughts

1540
01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:29,479
Speaker 4: on it, just you know, because I don't think at

1541
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:32,439
Speaker 4: least I was an understanding like that any kind of

1542
01:31:32,479 --> 01:31:35,680
Speaker 4: like mothers have to be one way or another, Like

1543
01:31:36,120 --> 01:31:38,040
Speaker 4: there's a lot of ways to be a mother, and

1544
01:31:38,080 --> 01:31:39,840
Speaker 4: I don't you know, So I don't know.

1545
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:43,880
Speaker 2: I apologize for sharing that quote, but I did it

1546
01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:49,439
Speaker 2: on purpose, because I just feel like I don't know,

1547
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:53,160
Speaker 2: Like I'm not trying to imply that it is impossible

1548
01:31:53,479 --> 01:31:56,880
Speaker 2: for a man to make a feminist movie. We have

1549
01:31:57,000 --> 01:32:01,439
Speaker 2: found on this show that that is absolutely not true. However,

1550
01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:05,439
Speaker 2: it is statistically unlikely, and sometimes if they do it,

1551
01:32:05,439 --> 01:32:09,000
Speaker 2: it is sometimes by accident, or maybe it is like

1552
01:32:09,240 --> 01:32:12,080
Speaker 2: the way that the movie is received in the general sense,

1553
01:32:12,200 --> 01:32:17,200
Speaker 2: or received by women and feminists is not necessarily the way,

1554
01:32:17,320 --> 01:32:19,479
Speaker 2: Like it's sort of a mistake and you kind of

1555
01:32:19,520 --> 01:32:22,800
Speaker 2: stumbled into this, which is like still net good for

1556
01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:24,960
Speaker 2: the world if there is a feminist movie out there,

1557
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:27,600
Speaker 2: even if you didn't mean to. But I just do

1558
01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:29,880
Speaker 2: I think that I'm trying to think of I know

1559
01:32:29,960 --> 01:32:32,080
Speaker 2: that there's at least one other example of a movie

1560
01:32:32,080 --> 01:32:34,160
Speaker 2: we've covered on the show that it's like a movie

1561
01:32:34,200 --> 01:32:38,320
Speaker 2: about women that is two times over been adapted by

1562
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:41,240
Speaker 2: only men, and I feel like that more often than

1563
01:32:41,280 --> 01:32:44,240
Speaker 2: not results in kind of what we've been bumping up

1564
01:32:44,280 --> 01:32:46,720
Speaker 2: against this whole episode, like for better or worse, like

1565
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:50,200
Speaker 2: a lot of dissonance and like not a lot of clarity,

1566
01:32:50,240 --> 01:32:52,439
Speaker 2: which can be fun because it means it's sort of

1567
01:32:52,439 --> 01:32:56,120
Speaker 2: like a fun house whatever it's Olga's death Room. It's

1568
01:32:56,160 --> 01:32:59,240
Speaker 2: a fucking fun house mirror full of ways to view

1569
01:33:00,120 --> 01:33:02,400
Speaker 2: what you think is being told based on who you

1570
01:33:02,439 --> 01:33:05,200
Speaker 2: are and how you feel about it. But it just

1571
01:33:05,240 --> 01:33:07,920
Speaker 2: feels like I don't know this movie for all the

1572
01:33:07,920 --> 01:33:09,360
Speaker 2: parts that I liked and all the parts I did,

1573
01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:12,240
Speaker 2: and it just felt a little ultimately kind of muddled

1574
01:33:12,280 --> 01:33:18,479
Speaker 2: and unclear. And I cannot definitively say it's because it's

1575
01:33:18,479 --> 01:33:21,160
Speaker 2: a story, like it's a story about a coven of

1576
01:33:21,240 --> 01:33:24,200
Speaker 2: women that is only that has been told conceived of,

1577
01:33:24,479 --> 01:33:27,639
Speaker 2: and I did even deeper research all of the texts

1578
01:33:27,720 --> 01:33:31,840
Speaker 2: that are cited as being influential on like psychology also men.

1579
01:33:32,320 --> 01:33:35,040
Speaker 2: It's just like in the way that we I think, oh,

1580
01:33:35,160 --> 01:33:39,280
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about Carrie, about how Carrie's written by Stephen

1581
01:33:39,360 --> 01:33:42,200
Speaker 2: King and adapted by Di Palma and other men, where

1582
01:33:42,320 --> 01:33:44,280
Speaker 2: there's a lot to love about that movie, and there's

1583
01:33:44,280 --> 01:33:46,439
Speaker 2: a lot that we loved about that movie, but there's

1584
01:33:46,479 --> 01:33:49,200
Speaker 2: a lot of dissonance because it's sort of men guessing

1585
01:33:49,240 --> 01:33:53,840
Speaker 2: around women's experiences in a way that when it hits,

1586
01:33:54,439 --> 01:33:57,519
Speaker 2: it's great, and when it doesn't, it's completely baffling because

1587
01:33:57,520 --> 01:34:01,040
Speaker 2: you're like, what are they trying to say. And that's

1588
01:34:01,040 --> 01:34:03,240
Speaker 2: I think kind of ultimately where I come down in

1589
01:34:03,240 --> 01:34:06,320
Speaker 2: this movie. Yeah, there's like it really is.

1590
01:34:06,479 --> 01:34:10,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, this isn't like the super insightful movie about mothers

1591
01:34:10,640 --> 01:34:15,519
Speaker 4: or women. I would definitely not, like, you know, for me,

1592
01:34:16,040 --> 01:34:19,240
Speaker 4: that maybe be like terms of endearment James Brooks, Like,

1593
01:34:20,000 --> 01:34:23,000
Speaker 4: you know, that's like a great Mother Daughter by a

1594
01:34:23,040 --> 01:34:23,799
Speaker 4: Man movie.

1595
01:34:24,080 --> 01:34:25,800
Speaker 2: Okay, I haven't seen that movie in forever.

1596
01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:28,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a really it's one of my favorite movies.

1597
01:34:29,360 --> 01:34:31,439
Speaker 4: I also watch a lot of stuff about mothers and

1598
01:34:31,560 --> 01:34:34,040
Speaker 4: daughters and it's like a whole you know again, I

1599
01:34:34,640 --> 01:34:37,320
Speaker 4: like the Gilmore Girls will have too, But I don't

1600
01:34:37,360 --> 01:34:39,439
Speaker 4: think this is that, And I wouldn't want to hear

1601
01:34:39,439 --> 01:34:43,240
Speaker 4: whatever the director's name is thoughts about motherhood. But I

1602
01:34:43,880 --> 01:34:46,880
Speaker 4: you know, I personally am often more interested in, like,

1603
01:34:47,479 --> 01:34:51,920
Speaker 4: you know, the bad mother's story than the super wonderful,

1604
01:34:52,080 --> 01:34:55,080
Speaker 4: redeeming isn't she just the greatest mother ever?

1605
01:34:55,280 --> 01:34:56,559
Speaker 2: Story?

1606
01:34:56,080 --> 01:34:59,280
Speaker 4: Yea, even something like Everything Everywhere, which is a mother

1607
01:34:59,400 --> 01:35:03,200
Speaker 4: daughter's story very little sacraine for somebody like me, but

1608
01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:06,360
Speaker 4: like so just for my own personal taste, like I

1609
01:35:06,560 --> 01:35:10,519
Speaker 4: prefer like a big you know, swing at just an

1610
01:35:10,520 --> 01:35:15,439
Speaker 4: insane rabbit hole of motherhood. Then, like, you know, let's

1611
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:17,760
Speaker 4: just really try to as a man, get into that

1612
01:35:17,920 --> 01:35:21,200
Speaker 4: mother daughter bond. I'm gonna I'm gonna crack the code

1613
01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:24,800
Speaker 4: on that one. You know, I don't know, just stay

1614
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:26,720
Speaker 4: out of it. But if you if you're gonna get

1615
01:35:26,760 --> 01:35:29,000
Speaker 4: into it, like I'd rather see this, I guess.

1616
01:35:29,320 --> 01:35:33,400
Speaker 5: I mean, everybody comes out unscathed, right, you know motherhood

1617
01:35:33,640 --> 01:35:37,080
Speaker 5: Nobody you know, like, yeah, he got that part.

1618
01:35:38,120 --> 01:35:41,360
Speaker 2: We all have baby hands on us the end of

1619
01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:41,760
Speaker 2: the day.

1620
01:35:42,040 --> 01:35:44,599
Speaker 4: You don't know what's underneath this moomo who I'm wearing.

1621
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:46,439
Speaker 4: You have no idea what's underneath?

1622
01:35:46,800 --> 01:35:49,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't want to, I guess. Like for me,

1623
01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:54,439
Speaker 3: it's I think there is room to examine stories about

1624
01:35:54,560 --> 01:35:59,680
Speaker 3: mothers and their children, and specifically mothers and daughters and

1625
01:35:59,800 --> 01:36:03,640
Speaker 3: every way that dynamic could possibly go Like that is,

1626
01:36:03,800 --> 01:36:08,439
Speaker 3: those are relationship dynamics worth exploring in movies that rarely

1627
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:12,360
Speaker 3: are explored because most movies, as we always joke about,

1628
01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:15,800
Speaker 3: but it's true, are about fathers and sons, and so yeah,

1629
01:36:16,280 --> 01:36:21,320
Speaker 3: it is rare to see a mother daughter relationship or

1630
01:36:21,400 --> 01:36:25,439
Speaker 3: just like a depiction of motherhood on screen period. Even

1631
01:36:25,520 --> 01:36:28,840
Speaker 3: attempted to explore right and then and then often when

1632
01:36:28,880 --> 01:36:32,479
Speaker 3: it is it's it is sometimes still told by men,

1633
01:36:33,360 --> 01:36:37,320
Speaker 3: which means it's probably not going to be very nuanced

1634
01:36:37,439 --> 01:36:40,040
Speaker 3: or it's going to come from a very male perspective.

1635
01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:42,200
Speaker 3: Is like, well, this is how I saw my sister

1636
01:36:42,360 --> 01:36:46,120
Speaker 3: interact with my mom, and they were always fighting because

1637
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:49,080
Speaker 3: women are mad at each other all the time. So

1638
01:36:49,160 --> 01:36:51,599
Speaker 3: that's what my movie is about, you know, that kind

1639
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:51,960
Speaker 3: of thing.

1640
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:54,160
Speaker 2: And that even that's rare. But I'm like, oh, if

1641
01:36:54,200 --> 01:36:57,280
Speaker 2: my brother made a movie about how he thought my

1642
01:36:57,479 --> 01:37:01,360
Speaker 2: mom and my relationship was, it would just be incorrect.

1643
01:37:01,600 --> 01:37:06,479
Speaker 2: It would just be all made up. But that's on him,

1644
01:37:06,960 --> 01:37:08,479
Speaker 2: and that's a personal call out.

1645
01:37:08,800 --> 01:37:11,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, all that to say, like, there should be more

1646
01:37:11,520 --> 01:37:15,719
Speaker 3: stories about motherhood. There should be more stories that explore

1647
01:37:15,840 --> 01:37:20,880
Speaker 3: nuanced relationships between mothers and daughters or mother figures and

1648
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:23,200
Speaker 3: a younger generation, you know that kind of thing.

1649
01:37:23,280 --> 01:37:27,160
Speaker 2: But I felt like, not totally virtuous perfect moms the

1650
01:37:27,240 --> 01:37:31,480
Speaker 2: way that we see that mothers. Maybe watcheth Asia.

1651
01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:37,960
Speaker 4: Better things. Pamela Adlon show is one of my other

1652
01:37:38,080 --> 01:37:42,920
Speaker 4: personal favorite mother daughter, her mother, you know, like a

1653
01:37:42,960 --> 01:37:46,800
Speaker 4: three generation mother story. This one had, I guess other

1654
01:37:46,880 --> 01:37:51,680
Speaker 4: than the creepy, super malty witch woman was maybe their grandmother.

1655
01:37:51,800 --> 01:37:54,160
Speaker 4: I don't know. Anyway, I do like a sort of

1656
01:37:54,320 --> 01:37:57,200
Speaker 4: multi generational mother story.

1657
01:37:57,720 --> 01:38:01,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, another one we I'm trying. I mean, like Gilmore Girls.

1658
01:38:01,560 --> 01:38:05,120
Speaker 2: Another really fun one we just covered recently, Miss June teenth.

1659
01:38:05,160 --> 01:38:08,719
Speaker 2: That's a great mother daughter story. Like there's so many

1660
01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:13,080
Speaker 2: good ones, and you know, I think sometimes even though

1661
01:38:13,120 --> 01:38:18,280
Speaker 2: this movie was, you know, technically a flop, men work forever.

1662
01:38:18,479 --> 01:38:21,680
Speaker 2: They it's very hard for them to fail. And so

1663
01:38:21,800 --> 01:38:24,439
Speaker 2: even though this was technically a fail, like a financial

1664
01:38:24,439 --> 01:38:29,519
Speaker 2: failure for this director, he's fine. He has three production

1665
01:38:30,040 --> 01:38:33,599
Speaker 2: He's fine. I haven't seen this is unrelated. I haven't

1666
01:38:33,600 --> 01:38:37,320
Speaker 2: seen his next movie, Bones and all. Oh I did

1667
01:38:37,640 --> 01:38:40,679
Speaker 2: hear it's horny and bloody. Is that true?

1668
01:38:41,080 --> 01:38:44,120
Speaker 3: That is true? Okay, would other words to describe it,

1669
01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:49,920
Speaker 3: mostly that I didn't like it very much, But that's.

1670
01:38:49,760 --> 01:38:52,160
Speaker 2: Just my personal opinion either way. I mean, it's I

1671
01:38:52,520 --> 01:38:56,280
Speaker 2: I like stories about motherhood, and there's I feel like

1672
01:38:56,479 --> 01:38:59,120
Speaker 2: it is not a hot take to say that the

1673
01:38:59,160 --> 01:39:09,720
Speaker 2: best ones and to be written by mother's I think

1674
01:39:09,760 --> 01:39:12,400
Speaker 2: that's fair to say. So brave of you, we have

1675
01:39:12,479 --> 01:39:16,040
Speaker 2: evidence in this very zoom call that that's the case.

1676
01:39:19,439 --> 01:39:22,640
Speaker 3: Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss.

1677
01:39:24,080 --> 01:39:25,200
Speaker 2: No, that's it for me.

1678
01:39:25,800 --> 01:39:30,240
Speaker 5: I would just say that, like, I love the extremity

1679
01:39:31,160 --> 01:39:35,599
Speaker 5: you know of this movie, and I love how like

1680
01:39:35,600 --> 01:39:38,800
Speaker 5: like the depths of how horrible a lot of the

1681
01:39:38,880 --> 01:39:44,600
Speaker 5: mother figures get to be are just two things, two plugs.

1682
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:50,160
Speaker 5: Since we talked about a lot of antis, I want

1683
01:39:50,200 --> 01:39:51,920
Speaker 5: to make sure I represent that.

1684
01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:56,639
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, I just want to touch on that this

1685
01:39:57,080 --> 01:40:00,840
Speaker 3: is a very white cast. Th There are a few

1686
01:40:00,920 --> 01:40:07,920
Speaker 3: members of the staff and dancers who are women of color,

1687
01:40:08,520 --> 01:40:12,360
Speaker 3: but they rarely get lines of dialogue, they get little

1688
01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:15,920
Speaker 3: to no characterization. All of the important characters to the

1689
01:40:16,000 --> 01:40:19,840
Speaker 3: narrative are white, and it just feels especially pointed that

1690
01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:23,800
Speaker 3: the cast does include some women of color, but they

1691
01:40:23,920 --> 01:40:29,639
Speaker 3: are really only there to be in the background. Yeah,

1692
01:40:29,680 --> 01:40:31,320
Speaker 3: and not at all in the foreground.

1693
01:40:31,760 --> 01:40:35,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. Only the white characters get any manner of character

1694
01:40:35,720 --> 01:40:36,880
Speaker 2: arc in this movie.

1695
01:40:37,280 --> 01:40:37,519
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1696
01:40:37,600 --> 01:40:40,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've never seen any other films by this director.

1697
01:40:40,520 --> 01:40:43,680
Speaker 4: They're Italian, but I don't know what their deal is

1698
01:40:43,760 --> 01:40:48,120
Speaker 4: on that topic. Is one off of that or yeah,

1699
01:40:48,360 --> 01:40:49,840
Speaker 4: you know they're cast in their movie.

1700
01:40:49,960 --> 01:40:50,240
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1701
01:40:50,280 --> 01:40:54,240
Speaker 2: I honestly don't either. I still have controversially not seen

1702
01:40:54,360 --> 01:40:58,920
Speaker 2: call Me by your Name, So I don't know. I

1703
01:40:58,960 --> 01:41:02,000
Speaker 2: did not see Bones and All. But yeah, I also

1704
01:41:02,040 --> 01:41:05,120
Speaker 2: found it frustrating that it's like if the director clearly

1705
01:41:05,160 --> 01:41:08,559
Speaker 2: wanted to have a diverse cast but didn't have an

1706
01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:12,880
Speaker 2: interest in any character outside of the white actors. So

1707
01:41:13,080 --> 01:41:16,280
Speaker 2: that feels double bad to me.

1708
01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:19,000
Speaker 3: I will say, Bones and All the Crown the main

1709
01:41:19,080 --> 01:41:22,120
Speaker 3: character is a woman of color, so he course corrected

1710
01:41:22,160 --> 01:41:23,439
Speaker 3: in that movie.

1711
01:41:23,760 --> 01:41:24,559
Speaker 2: Yay, Luca.

1712
01:41:25,000 --> 01:41:27,360
Speaker 4: I think they probably got the money for this for

1713
01:41:27,479 --> 01:41:31,960
Speaker 4: Tilda Swinton and Dakota Yeah being in it. I assume

1714
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:35,320
Speaker 4: that's how this thing was funded. Yeah, and then moved

1715
01:41:35,360 --> 01:41:38,080
Speaker 4: out from there. But yeah, I doubt this was an

1716
01:41:38,080 --> 01:41:43,160
Speaker 4: easy funder. Whoever paid for this? I whatever? Yeah, yeah.

1717
01:41:43,200 --> 01:41:46,960
Speaker 3: Can you imagine like finance bros who are like, yeah,

1718
01:41:47,360 --> 01:41:50,480
Speaker 3: i'll help fund your movie. Wait it's about a group.

1719
01:41:50,240 --> 01:41:56,200
Speaker 2: Of women, or even we're gonna have Tilda Swinton play

1720
01:41:56,280 --> 01:41:59,960
Speaker 2: the six Flags guy, we need twenty million dollars.

1721
01:42:01,320 --> 01:42:03,040
Speaker 5: All they would have had to do is show a

1722
01:42:03,080 --> 01:42:09,040
Speaker 5: clip of the floor, fucking like, honestly, now I think.

1723
01:42:09,080 --> 01:42:10,840
Speaker 2: You think that I don't.

1724
01:42:11,000 --> 01:42:16,240
Speaker 4: They didn't even show anyone breasts. That was the major people, right, Like,

1725
01:42:17,080 --> 01:42:17,559
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1726
01:42:17,680 --> 01:42:19,280
Speaker 3: An outline of Dakota.

1727
01:42:20,240 --> 01:42:24,240
Speaker 2: It's until the end in the freaky blood covered security

1728
01:42:24,240 --> 01:42:27,280
Speaker 2: footage that you see pretty much everyone that you see

1729
01:42:27,280 --> 01:42:29,519
Speaker 2: me a gothnake, you see. But I mean whatever, Now

1730
01:42:29,520 --> 01:42:32,479
Speaker 2: it sounds creepy and like, I'm keeping counts, so I'm

1731
01:42:32,520 --> 01:42:36,160
Speaker 2: removing myself from this. I've seen him.

1732
01:42:36,040 --> 01:42:37,320
Speaker 5: Throw money, you know.

1733
01:42:37,640 --> 01:42:41,559
Speaker 2: Last Yeah, I was keeping account of how many nips

1734
01:42:41,560 --> 01:42:45,599
Speaker 2: I saw and that's feminist, just kidding.

1735
01:42:45,960 --> 01:42:49,719
Speaker 3: Well, speaking of nips, though, first will before our nipple scale,

1736
01:42:49,920 --> 01:42:53,439
Speaker 3: we will pass once again remind you that the movie

1737
01:42:53,439 --> 01:42:55,480
Speaker 3: definitely passes the Bechdel test.

1738
01:42:55,240 --> 01:43:00,559
Speaker 2: Almost over and over. Yeah, yes, yes, except for Flags

1739
01:43:00,560 --> 01:43:04,519
Speaker 2: guy or exchanges about the six Flags guy, that's pretty much.

1740
01:43:04,400 --> 01:43:08,960
Speaker 3: It, which again played by a woman. And we talked

1741
01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:13,639
Speaker 3: about gender swapped casting recently on the Hairspray episode because

1742
01:43:13,680 --> 01:43:16,599
Speaker 3: John Traval took place a woman and how it's very

1743
01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:21,400
Speaker 3: rare for a woman to play a male character, and

1744
01:43:21,680 --> 01:43:24,920
Speaker 3: this movie is actually one of the few examples I

1745
01:43:24,960 --> 01:43:28,599
Speaker 3: can think of where that happens. And I think till

1746
01:43:28,760 --> 01:43:32,000
Speaker 3: Swinton does a great job in that performance and in

1747
01:43:32,080 --> 01:43:34,680
Speaker 3: every performance in this movie, and just in general, in

1748
01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:37,599
Speaker 3: every movie she's in. But she does such a convincing

1749
01:43:37,680 --> 01:43:40,800
Speaker 3: job that there were members of the cast of this

1750
01:43:40,920 --> 01:43:44,880
Speaker 3: movie who didn't know that that was Tilda Swinton. So

1751
01:43:45,240 --> 01:43:46,400
Speaker 3: should that be allowed?

1752
01:43:46,840 --> 01:43:48,320
Speaker 2: Like should that be allowed?

1753
01:43:48,680 --> 01:43:51,120
Speaker 3: That does seem to see what do you mean?

1754
01:43:51,680 --> 01:43:54,559
Speaker 4: Like in like a brad grandpat kind of way, like

1755
01:43:55,120 --> 01:43:56,599
Speaker 4: you know, like what do you mean?

1756
01:43:57,960 --> 01:44:01,240
Speaker 5: I like, I just wonder if I'm like at work

1757
01:44:01,360 --> 01:44:05,599
Speaker 5: doing my job, not consenting, you know, to like not

1758
01:44:05,920 --> 01:44:09,000
Speaker 5: know who people really are, that's fair.

1759
01:44:09,240 --> 01:44:09,760
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1760
01:44:10,320 --> 01:44:11,040
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1761
01:44:11,320 --> 01:44:13,559
Speaker 4: Oh so if you're like, oh my god, till such

1762
01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:16,360
Speaker 4: a bitch and then you like you tell the old guy,

1763
01:44:16,439 --> 01:44:16,840
Speaker 4: You're like.

1764
01:44:17,000 --> 01:44:20,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I'm like, thank fucking god, I'm not paint

1765
01:44:20,160 --> 01:44:22,360
Speaker 5: in the barn until the Swinton today.

1766
01:44:24,240 --> 01:44:27,519
Speaker 2: And then you're like, oh no, I'm fired. It could happen.

1767
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:34,080
Speaker 2: She's a chameleon to everyone else's professional detriment. I don't know. Yeah,

1768
01:44:34,640 --> 01:44:37,200
Speaker 2: that's the only thing, because yeah, that's the only thing

1769
01:44:37,240 --> 01:44:41,479
Speaker 2: I specifically remember about this movie's like press run was

1770
01:44:41,479 --> 01:44:44,640
Speaker 2: that at some point it was revealed that till the

1771
01:44:44,720 --> 01:44:48,120
Speaker 2: Swinton was the six Flags guy, and once it was

1772
01:44:48,160 --> 01:44:50,400
Speaker 2: in like the New York Times, like till the Swinton

1773
01:44:50,680 --> 01:44:54,320
Speaker 2: announces she's the six Flags guy, and once you know.

1774
01:44:54,439 --> 01:44:57,280
Speaker 3: You don't see the resemblance the sixth Fox guy doesn't

1775
01:44:57,280 --> 01:44:57,679
Speaker 3: have hair.

1776
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:04,960
Speaker 2: Once you see, once you know that that character is

1777
01:45:05,000 --> 01:45:08,040
Speaker 2: played by Tildeswinton, it is very clear in like the

1778
01:45:08,160 --> 01:45:12,479
Speaker 2: voice mostly but I just thought that was funny that that.

1779
01:45:12,720 --> 01:45:15,479
Speaker 2: I don't have an opinion on it, but that's like

1780
01:45:15,520 --> 01:45:18,080
Speaker 2: the thing I most clearly remember. I don't remember it

1781
01:45:18,080 --> 01:45:23,080
Speaker 2: being like it's a reinterpretation of this beloved slasher film.

1782
01:45:23,080 --> 01:45:25,759
Speaker 2: It was like, did you know that till this Winton

1783
01:45:25,880 --> 01:45:28,680
Speaker 2: put on a lot of makeup every day, just like

1784
01:45:28,800 --> 01:45:32,160
Speaker 2: when Jim Carrey was The Grinch? And I didn't know that,

1785
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:34,839
Speaker 2: and then I proceeded to not see it in theaters?

1786
01:45:34,960 --> 01:45:38,040
Speaker 2: So what does that say about me? Anyway?

1787
01:45:38,880 --> 01:45:41,400
Speaker 3: So onto our nipple scale, where we rate the movie

1788
01:45:42,000 --> 01:45:45,200
Speaker 3: on a scale of zero to five nipples based on

1789
01:45:45,439 --> 01:45:52,480
Speaker 3: examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. Again, I

1790
01:45:52,520 --> 01:45:58,080
Speaker 3: am still not quite sure how I feel about the movie.

1791
01:45:58,439 --> 01:46:02,880
Speaker 3: I think things are presented that allow for a read

1792
01:46:03,000 --> 01:46:07,320
Speaker 3: of like, this is a movie about almost entirely women

1793
01:46:07,800 --> 01:46:15,080
Speaker 3: who are powerful and who are expressing themselves creatively, and

1794
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:21,639
Speaker 3: the dynamics between and among them are interesting, you could argue,

1795
01:46:21,960 --> 01:46:26,839
Speaker 3: And there are strong themes of motherhood and of female

1796
01:46:26,840 --> 01:46:30,639
Speaker 3: creativity and other things that we tend to talk about.

1797
01:46:30,760 --> 01:46:33,200
Speaker 3: So on the surface, I think it's like pretty cool

1798
01:46:33,240 --> 01:46:35,599
Speaker 3: a lot of the things that this movie is doing,

1799
01:46:36,120 --> 01:46:40,280
Speaker 3: but I can't shake the feeling that it I think

1800
01:46:40,320 --> 01:46:45,479
Speaker 3: if this a similar premise was handed over to a

1801
01:46:45,520 --> 01:46:50,360
Speaker 3: writer and director who was a woman and who had

1802
01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:54,880
Speaker 3: a much closer relationship with motherhood, or being a daughter

1803
01:46:54,960 --> 01:46:59,200
Speaker 3: who had a mother, who has a mother, of being

1804
01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:04,160
Speaker 3: a woman who expresses creativity, like and just like knowing

1805
01:47:04,240 --> 01:47:09,200
Speaker 3: how groups of women as witches are so often represented

1806
01:47:09,400 --> 01:47:12,800
Speaker 3: in film, and maybe trying to subvert some of those

1807
01:47:13,200 --> 01:47:17,800
Speaker 3: tropes and subverting the tropes of an older woman being

1808
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:22,920
Speaker 3: grotesque and wanting to steal the body of a younger woman,

1809
01:47:23,360 --> 01:47:24,240
Speaker 3: you know, things like that.

1810
01:47:24,760 --> 01:47:25,519
Speaker 2: But I do.

1811
01:47:25,680 --> 01:47:27,440
Speaker 5: I'm old, and I want to steal.

1812
01:47:27,600 --> 01:47:31,760
Speaker 4: Till you get there, wait till you get there. I'm

1813
01:47:31,880 --> 01:47:33,920
Speaker 4: just saying, gimme, gim me, gim me, gimme.

1814
01:47:34,840 --> 01:47:37,960
Speaker 3: But but here's what I'm gonna I'm just gonna suck

1815
01:47:38,240 --> 01:47:44,240
Speaker 3: the blood of young men. And that's how I'll stay youthful.

1816
01:47:44,520 --> 01:47:50,320
Speaker 4: They're not as nearly as beautiful. I'm sorry one woman's opinion.

1817
01:47:51,760 --> 01:47:53,559
Speaker 4: I wouldn't cross the street to.

1818
01:47:58,280 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 5: No.

1819
01:47:58,840 --> 01:48:03,000
Speaker 3: I I don't know. I think this movie there's interesting things.

1820
01:48:03,080 --> 01:48:08,000
Speaker 3: I think visually it's cool and beautiful. I just still

1821
01:48:08,040 --> 01:48:11,200
Speaker 3: don't know quite what I'm supposed to take away as

1822
01:48:11,240 --> 01:48:15,000
Speaker 3: far as like the filmmaker's intentions. I think there's some

1823
01:48:15,120 --> 01:48:18,920
Speaker 3: muddled stuff there that to me appear to just be

1824
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:24,000
Speaker 3: relying on tropes of well, powerful women who are near

1825
01:48:24,040 --> 01:48:28,000
Speaker 3: each other, Well, they are witches and they're gonna kill you.

1826
01:48:28,240 --> 01:48:31,320
Speaker 3: But also it could just be an examination of power

1827
01:48:31,520 --> 01:48:34,880
Speaker 3: regardless of gender, of the gender of the person who

1828
01:48:34,960 --> 01:48:38,120
Speaker 3: is wielding that power, like that power needs to be

1829
01:48:38,240 --> 01:48:42,240
Speaker 3: kept in check, and you know, just because a woman

1830
01:48:42,280 --> 01:48:46,759
Speaker 3: has power doesn't mean that she should abuse it or something.

1831
01:48:47,280 --> 01:48:49,360
Speaker 3: I don't know. There are a lot of different ways

1832
01:48:49,400 --> 01:48:53,800
Speaker 3: to read the story of this movie, But I don't know.

1833
01:48:53,920 --> 01:48:56,719
Speaker 3: I just I'm so tired of like women are witches

1834
01:48:56,880 --> 01:49:03,160
Speaker 3: and evil stories. So I think I'll give the movie, like,

1835
01:49:03,360 --> 01:49:08,040
Speaker 3: I don't know, two two and a half nipples, and

1836
01:49:08,320 --> 01:49:14,040
Speaker 3: I will give one to Dakota. What is it not

1837
01:49:14,200 --> 01:49:20,719
Speaker 3: Fanning Johnson Coda Johnson, I will give one to alec Weck,

1838
01:49:21,080 --> 01:49:25,800
Speaker 3: who plays the one of the matrons. She is I

1839
01:49:25,800 --> 01:49:29,000
Speaker 3: think the only black woman in the movie who has lines,

1840
01:49:29,560 --> 01:49:33,920
Speaker 3: and she only has like two of them, And I'll

1841
01:49:33,920 --> 01:49:36,040
Speaker 3: give my I'll give my half nipple to friend of

1842
01:49:36,040 --> 01:49:37,479
Speaker 3: the cast Jessica Harper.

1843
01:49:38,080 --> 01:49:42,240
Speaker 2: Kay. Yeah, I'm gonna go down the middle on this

1844
01:49:42,439 --> 01:49:47,320
Speaker 2: movie as well. I do think I am like, maybe

1845
01:49:47,360 --> 01:49:51,840
Speaker 2: this opinion I will will be changed, as with most

1846
01:49:51,840 --> 01:49:54,080
Speaker 2: opinions that we've had at various points on this show

1847
01:49:54,640 --> 01:49:57,760
Speaker 2: over time, but this does feel very much to me,

1848
01:49:58,080 --> 01:50:01,599
Speaker 2: even though it was in reduction and in development for

1849
01:50:01,640 --> 01:50:04,639
Speaker 2: so long, the way that it came out feels very

1850
01:50:05,520 --> 01:50:09,320
Speaker 2: of a very specific cultural moment where I think you

1851
01:50:09,400 --> 01:50:13,719
Speaker 2: get a lot of male o tours attempts at having

1852
01:50:14,800 --> 01:50:19,320
Speaker 2: women meaningfully included in their movies, and I think that

1853
01:50:19,479 --> 01:50:23,960
Speaker 2: this very much depends from director to director level of success,

1854
01:50:24,160 --> 01:50:27,439
Speaker 2: level of possibly pandering or guessing their way around an

1855
01:50:27,479 --> 01:50:31,280
Speaker 2: experience that they don't share. It's just like, it just

1856
01:50:31,320 --> 01:50:35,639
Speaker 2: feels very men are making movies post me too, and

1857
01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:38,920
Speaker 2: look at this one a lot of like we've been

1858
01:50:38,920 --> 01:50:41,240
Speaker 2: talking about for the past two hours, not all of

1859
01:50:41,280 --> 01:50:43,800
Speaker 2: it works for me. I think that, yeah, there is

1860
01:50:44,080 --> 01:50:47,240
Speaker 2: a lot of saying the right thing, but the theme

1861
01:50:47,320 --> 01:50:50,960
Speaker 2: kind of undermining the right thing quote unquote that was said.

1862
01:50:51,600 --> 01:50:54,040
Speaker 2: And then there is a lot of like I think,

1863
01:50:54,120 --> 01:50:57,000
Speaker 2: interesting ideas in this movie. I like the historical context

1864
01:50:57,000 --> 01:51:02,479
Speaker 2: it puts everyone into building out the worlds of the

1865
01:51:02,520 --> 01:51:07,880
Speaker 2: women that exist within this coven. I like the fact that,

1866
01:51:08,040 --> 01:51:11,880
Speaker 2: like I like the just general idea because I feel like,

1867
01:51:12,400 --> 01:51:14,720
Speaker 2: in this same span of time and I think this

1868
01:51:14,760 --> 01:51:17,479
Speaker 2: is continuing now, there is this sort of very naive

1869
01:51:17,479 --> 01:51:20,599
Speaker 2: assumption that if if women ruled the world, everything would

1870
01:51:20,640 --> 01:51:23,920
Speaker 2: be perfect, and you're like, well, that excludes literally every

1871
01:51:24,000 --> 01:51:28,400
Speaker 2: other possible element of being a person in a way

1872
01:51:28,439 --> 01:51:31,439
Speaker 2: that is ultimately I think reductive to women to think

1873
01:51:31,479 --> 01:51:34,280
Speaker 2: that women would completely get it right when there's still

1874
01:51:34,400 --> 01:51:37,200
Speaker 2: very much human and there's all of these other elements

1875
01:51:37,479 --> 01:51:39,920
Speaker 2: that factor into being a person. So I like that

1876
01:51:40,120 --> 01:51:44,960
Speaker 2: the women in this story are imperfect in different ways,

1877
01:51:45,560 --> 01:51:49,920
Speaker 2: but overall, especially after reading how the director was kind

1878
01:51:49,960 --> 01:51:51,920
Speaker 2: of gaming it out, I think a lot of it

1879
01:51:51,960 --> 01:51:55,840
Speaker 2: doesn't work and it's not something I will revisit, but

1880
01:51:56,160 --> 01:51:59,559
Speaker 2: you know it I would love to see as much

1881
01:52:00,160 --> 01:52:04,400
Speaker 2: Like I like that Luca Guadnino did this but I

1882
01:52:04,439 --> 01:52:08,200
Speaker 2: would love to see more Coven stories that are written

1883
01:52:08,800 --> 01:52:12,320
Speaker 2: by women. If they're going to majority include women, it

1884
01:52:12,439 --> 01:52:15,360
Speaker 2: still feels like that isn't happening on the level it

1885
01:52:15,400 --> 01:52:18,599
Speaker 2: should be. And in conclusion, I think that's why people

1886
01:52:18,640 --> 01:52:22,559
Speaker 2: should watch teenage Euthanasia. And so I'm going to give

1887
01:52:22,640 --> 01:52:25,880
Speaker 2: this two and a half nipples. I'm going to give

1888
01:52:26,080 --> 01:52:33,000
Speaker 2: one to Dakota Johnson's architectural digest house video, which you

1889
01:52:33,040 --> 01:52:36,320
Speaker 2: can watch on YouTube. It is so funny. She's lying

1890
01:52:36,320 --> 01:52:38,920
Speaker 2: out her ass the whole time. She's some of the

1891
01:52:38,960 --> 01:52:42,519
Speaker 2: only good nepotism available. As far as I know, I

1892
01:52:42,600 --> 01:52:45,599
Speaker 2: love her. I'm going to give one to me a goth,

1893
01:52:46,479 --> 01:52:51,960
Speaker 2: and I will give the remaining half nipple to the

1894
01:52:52,240 --> 01:52:54,040
Speaker 2: Six Flags guy, the actual one.

1895
01:52:54,479 --> 01:52:56,160
Speaker 3: Oh sure do do do do?

1896
01:52:56,160 --> 01:52:56,360
Speaker 2: Do?

1897
01:52:56,360 --> 01:52:56,599
Speaker 3: Do?

1898
01:52:56,600 --> 01:52:56,920
Speaker 5: Do? Do?

1899
01:52:57,840 --> 01:52:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah? Exactly and so on.

1900
01:52:59,200 --> 01:53:02,680
Speaker 4: Well, I'm not going to defend this this movie to

1901
01:53:02,720 --> 01:53:04,960
Speaker 4: the end of the earth. But I enjoyed watching it,

1902
01:53:05,240 --> 01:53:07,040
Speaker 4: and I enjoyed watching it the first time, and this

1903
01:53:07,240 --> 01:53:10,120
Speaker 4: time I like things that are kind of a mess

1904
01:53:10,160 --> 01:53:12,040
Speaker 4: that you don't know what to make. It's again a

1905
01:53:12,080 --> 01:53:14,960
Speaker 4: personal preference. I don't like a I don't like a

1906
01:53:15,000 --> 01:53:18,360
Speaker 4: straight line. I don't like a I like a pretzel,

1907
01:53:18,720 --> 01:53:21,680
Speaker 4: and I don't like when people tell me what to think,

1908
01:53:21,720 --> 01:53:26,000
Speaker 4: because then I immediately stopped thinking it. So for those people,

1909
01:53:26,320 --> 01:53:28,400
Speaker 4: you might like this, and then I thought it was

1910
01:53:28,479 --> 01:53:33,840
Speaker 4: again I'm all into anything about women creativity. So I

1911
01:53:33,880 --> 01:53:36,720
Speaker 4: don't know. I'm gonna give it a three nipple. I'm

1912
01:53:36,760 --> 01:53:38,960
Speaker 4: not going more than that, but I'm gonna go a

1913
01:53:38,960 --> 01:53:41,160
Speaker 4: little higher, and I'm going to give one to me

1914
01:53:41,280 --> 01:53:45,000
Speaker 4: a goth, and one to the production designer and the

1915
01:53:45,200 --> 01:53:50,800
Speaker 4: wardrobe hair team because it was really fun. Editors were

1916
01:53:50,840 --> 01:53:52,960
Speaker 4: good too. It was a well made movie.

1917
01:53:53,080 --> 01:53:55,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, technically, no denying that.

1918
01:53:55,360 --> 01:53:58,120
Speaker 5: Hell yeah, can I can I give hollow counts instead

1919
01:53:58,120 --> 01:54:06,360
Speaker 5: of nipples? Yeah, okay. If it didn't have Tilda eating

1920
01:54:06,439 --> 01:54:10,519
Speaker 5: chicken wings, I I think then I would give it

1921
01:54:10,760 --> 01:54:17,760
Speaker 5: a three. But it does have have that, And it

1922
01:54:17,880 --> 01:54:21,280
Speaker 5: was really hard to watch all of the bone breaky thing,

1923
01:54:21,520 --> 01:54:26,360
Speaker 5: you know, like it's very very difficult, you know, to

1924
01:54:26,360 --> 01:54:29,679
Speaker 5: to make me look away. And I thought that, yeah,

1925
01:54:29,680 --> 01:54:33,720
Speaker 5: a lot of like the bone breaky horror.

1926
01:54:33,520 --> 01:54:38,880
Speaker 4: Was good, and bone breaky stuff was about the chicken wings.

1927
01:54:41,680 --> 01:54:43,080
Speaker 2: The most painful views.

1928
01:54:43,720 --> 01:54:47,480
Speaker 5: I mean, if we could have extended that sequence, yeah,

1929
01:54:48,160 --> 01:54:51,080
Speaker 5: then it could have been five hollow cunts. I'm gonna

1930
01:54:51,080 --> 01:54:53,280
Speaker 5: I'm going to go three point five hollow cunts.

1931
01:54:53,360 --> 01:54:54,120
Speaker 4: I'm going to do that.

1932
01:54:55,000 --> 01:54:57,120
Speaker 5: I like, it's just a weird one, you know, it's

1933
01:54:57,120 --> 01:54:59,440
Speaker 5: a it's a problematic weird one.

1934
01:55:00,200 --> 01:55:04,080
Speaker 2: And I liked the ride. And I'll give all.

1935
01:55:04,000 --> 01:55:08,320
Speaker 5: Of the hollow cunts to the super witch Mother creature.

1936
01:55:09,200 --> 01:55:12,240
Speaker 5: She needs all the teats and the cunts that she

1937
01:55:12,360 --> 01:55:14,840
Speaker 5: can find, you know.

1938
01:55:15,400 --> 01:55:15,760
Speaker 2: Hell yea.

1939
01:55:15,840 --> 01:55:19,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's collecting them for an undisclosed.

1940
01:55:18,840 --> 01:55:21,560
Speaker 2: Later project, so that she's had in development for the

1941
01:55:21,600 --> 01:55:24,200
Speaker 2: amount of time this movie was in development exactly.

1942
01:55:25,280 --> 01:55:28,280
Speaker 3: Well, thank you both so much for joining us for

1943
01:55:28,480 --> 01:55:29,640
Speaker 3: this discussion.

1944
01:55:30,200 --> 01:55:31,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, this was funny.

1945
01:55:31,360 --> 01:55:35,480
Speaker 2: Time tell us about teenage Euthanasia and where you can

1946
01:55:35,560 --> 01:55:36,120
Speaker 2: check it out.

1947
01:55:36,640 --> 01:55:41,400
Speaker 5: Well, you can check it out on Adult Swim. New

1948
01:55:41,440 --> 01:55:45,360
Speaker 5: episodes drop on Wednesday nights at midnight, and then they're

1949
01:55:45,360 --> 01:55:49,880
Speaker 5: available the next day on Max. You can slide right

1950
01:55:49,920 --> 01:55:54,680
Speaker 5: into season two. You don't need to watch season one first.

1951
01:55:54,880 --> 01:55:57,560
Speaker 5: You can you can kind of like dip, you know,

1952
01:55:58,080 --> 01:56:01,760
Speaker 5: to your hollow count in the water with season two,

1953
01:56:01,840 --> 01:56:04,360
Speaker 5: and then you know, if you like how it feels,

1954
01:56:04,440 --> 01:56:07,840
Speaker 5: you can watch season one. But they are Season one

1955
01:56:07,920 --> 01:56:11,560
Speaker 5: is up in its entirety on Max to stream and

1956
01:56:11,680 --> 01:56:16,320
Speaker 5: available and it is about, yeah, we have we have

1957
01:56:16,520 --> 01:56:23,240
Speaker 5: definitely the dysfunctional matriarchy family funeral home that is run

1958
01:56:23,280 --> 01:56:27,720
Speaker 5: by a woman. It's three generations of you know, female

1959
01:56:27,800 --> 01:56:33,080
Speaker 5: characters passing their trauma down to the other in kind

1960
01:56:33,120 --> 01:56:37,640
Speaker 5: of like a parallel universe post apocalyptic Florida.

1961
01:56:37,720 --> 01:56:40,640
Speaker 4: And if you like hollow cunts, you might be disappointed

1962
01:56:40,640 --> 01:56:44,600
Speaker 4: because the main character's vagina is filled with crotch, beetles,

1963
01:56:44,600 --> 01:56:49,280
Speaker 4: magical ones. She's a zombie, reanimated corpse and who has

1964
01:56:49,480 --> 01:56:53,920
Speaker 4: death powers. And also it's animated. We don't have Suspiria

1965
01:56:54,120 --> 01:56:58,080
Speaker 4: level budgets here, so this is an animated program.

1966
01:56:58,720 --> 01:57:01,720
Speaker 3: Yes, no, still amazing it is.

1967
01:57:01,960 --> 01:57:05,480
Speaker 2: It is if you like the opposite of a hollowed

1968
01:57:05,480 --> 01:57:10,480
Speaker 2: out cunt and just one that is so full, just

1969
01:57:10,560 --> 01:57:16,720
Speaker 2: an over a cornucopia of various with insight, is a

1970
01:57:16,920 --> 01:57:21,680
Speaker 2: teeming cunt, well then do we have the show for you.

1971
01:57:21,720 --> 01:57:24,760
Speaker 2: I feel like I should also full disclosure, I'm a

1972
01:57:24,760 --> 01:57:26,920
Speaker 2: writer on the show and I love it very much

1973
01:57:26,960 --> 01:57:29,800
Speaker 2: and I think you should watch it because it rocks

1974
01:57:29,960 --> 01:57:35,440
Speaker 2: and it's teeming with you know, vaginas full of beetles, and.

1975
01:57:35,560 --> 01:57:39,160
Speaker 5: You, I've got to say, have just brought the grossness

1976
01:57:39,200 --> 01:57:42,200
Speaker 5: and the body hord to a level that I think

1977
01:57:42,240 --> 01:57:44,880
Speaker 5: Alison and I could have only dreamed of in our

1978
01:57:44,920 --> 01:57:50,320
Speaker 5: conception of teenage usanasia. So we are just so in

1979
01:57:50,400 --> 01:57:52,000
Speaker 5: our gratitude to you for that.

1980
01:57:52,280 --> 01:57:55,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, a tip of the cunt to you, Jamie. It's

1981
01:57:55,160 --> 01:57:56,560
Speaker 4: just an absolute pleasure.

1982
01:57:57,160 --> 01:58:00,720
Speaker 2: Oh my cunt runneth over, Thank you so much. No,

1983
01:58:01,320 --> 01:58:04,640
Speaker 2: it's it's the absolute best. I love shoving new disgusting

1984
01:58:06,040 --> 01:58:08,400
Speaker 2: insects into our characters.

1985
01:58:08,840 --> 01:58:09,600
Speaker 4: It's the greatest.

1986
01:58:10,440 --> 01:58:13,320
Speaker 2: And you can find the Betel Cast in all their

1987
01:58:13,400 --> 01:58:16,960
Speaker 2: regular places. You can find us on Instagram and whatever

1988
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:21,880
Speaker 2: they're calling it now on at Bechtel Cast. You can

1989
01:58:21,920 --> 01:58:28,640
Speaker 2: follow our Patreon ak Matreon Wow, pretty scary German dance

1990
01:58:28,680 --> 01:58:31,560
Speaker 2: study of us. For five dollars a month, you get

1991
01:58:31,560 --> 01:58:34,240
Speaker 2: two bonus episodes a month. Imagine that.

1992
01:58:34,640 --> 01:58:39,600
Speaker 3: Imagine that. You can also grab our merch at teapublic

1993
01:58:39,640 --> 01:58:42,560
Speaker 3: dot com slash the Bechtel Cast for all of your

1994
01:58:42,560 --> 01:58:46,840
Speaker 3: merchandising needs. And just a little reminder that all of

1995
01:58:46,880 --> 01:58:50,560
Speaker 3: our merch is designed by a one Jamie Loftus, so

1996
01:58:51,160 --> 01:58:52,520
Speaker 3: even more reason to get it.

1997
01:58:52,960 --> 01:58:57,280
Speaker 2: Cunt run of Over, for merch with them.

1998
01:58:57,160 --> 01:59:02,520
Speaker 3: Many talents you go, okay, let's all right, go with

1999
01:59:02,720 --> 01:59:09,280
Speaker 3: into the basement and dance around shed top rotting hearts.

2000
01:59:09,960 --> 01:59:11,400
Speaker 2: Bye bye