WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - December 22nd, 2023 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.720 This is Bloomberg business Week Inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.760 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus. 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.000 Global business, finance and tech news. 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:16.279 The Bloomberg Business Week Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:18.640 Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:23.440 Hi everyone, Merry Christmas, and welcome to the Bloomberg Business 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.720 Week Weekend Podcast. Carol is off this week, so we'll 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:30.520 have Bloomberg News Equities reporter Bailey Lipschultz and Cross Asset 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:34.160 reporter Emily Grafeo filling in as we celebrate the season 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:37.040 of giving. This hour, we'll learn about the windfall for 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.360 Florida based charities thanks to the state's recent wealth boom, 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:44.000 and why dozens of smaller American colleges and universities find 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.640 themselves in need as falling enrollments along with expiring government 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.519 aid push their finances to the brink. All of that 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.320 and more to come, We begin with a look at 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.720 a special edition of Bloomberg Business Week magazine. It's the 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.360 Longevity Issue. It tells some of the stories of the 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.240 billions of dollars that are being to live longer or 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:05.080 age slower in the never ending quest for the Fountain 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:07.920 of youth or to be forever young. Stories in there 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.399 also delve into the science behind the concept and how 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:14.000 researchers are making headway when it comes to longevity. And 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:16.360 that's where the cover story comes in. It's by Kristin V. Brown, 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.160 healthcare reporter for Bloomberg News. She writes about how the 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:24.360 biggest breakthrough in longevity may start with menopause. The story 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:28.199 starts with mice. With mice, yes, how do they play 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:28.560 into this? 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:31.920 Well, So, mice, as many people may know, are a 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:37.000 very common model animal in scientific research, and this scientist 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:42.080 in particular was giving mice ovarian tumors to try and 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:45.880 figure out whether a hormone called AMH that both men 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:50.000 and women produce lots of, whether that hormone could treat 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.760 the ovarian tumors. And when he did that, he gave 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.760 them this AMH gene therapy. And when he did that, 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:02.360 he realized something incredible was happening. Whether they actually treated 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:04.320 the tumors or not, I don't know. But one thing 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:08.560 they did do is make the ovaries of the mice shrink. 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:11.519 He said they looked like the ovaries of newborn mice. 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:13.880 And what that suggested to him was that it was 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:18.320 almost like a reverse aging process, that this hormone reversed 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:23.440 the aging of the mice's ovaries. And as any one 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:28.040 with ovaries nose, as your ovaries age, they age much 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.240 faster than the rest of your body, and eventually that 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:32.880 means you can't have a baby, eventually go through menopause, 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:37.000 which is horrible for many women. So this indicated that 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:39.560 he might be onto something huge, something that could really 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.360 solve a lot of problems that women face as the 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:43.600 reproductive system ages. 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.040 And are we seeing this AMH or other types of 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.400 science being used in more advanced animals, like more similar 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:51.880 animals cats, dogs. 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.680 Cats, Yeah, you must have read the story. I was 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:59.280 very excited to get a cat reference into the story 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:03.200 as a crazy cat lady. Yeah, so AMAH could have 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:05.040 a lot of potential uses because it does have this 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:09.520 really powerful sway over the whole reproductive system. And so 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:12.560 his first thought was, actually, well, maybe I could make 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:15.520 a better birth control with less side effects, And so 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:18.200 he decided to test that in cats and cats it's 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:23.040 a permanent birth control instead of removing their reproductive organs. 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:26.239 They worked with the Cincinnati Zoo and they gave cats 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:29.400 this AMH gene therapies similar to what he gave the mice, 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:32.240 and the cats were no longer able to get pregnant 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.320 without having to lose their reproductive organs, which is not 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:36.400 a pleasant experience. 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:41.600 So how can scientists and researchers extrapolate what's happening in 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:45.720 the ovaries and apply that across a broad spectrum for longevity? 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:46.360 Right? 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.680 So what's really interesting about the ovaries beyond just the 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.120 idea that you might be able to slow menopause or 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:55.440 extend a woman's number of fertile years, which would be 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:58.680 incredible on their own. Incredible on their own. Yeah, But 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.120 so it's really hot to study aging in general because 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.680 there's not a great you know, we can study it 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:09.000 in mice, but how similar are mice related to humans? 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:09.200 Right? 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.080 We can only learn so much about aging in humans 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:16.400 by studying animals that age much faster. Right, A mouse 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.560 has a much faster life cycle. So it's better to 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:24.279 study these things, But it's not similar enough to humans 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.760 to really know how it would do in humans, how 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.960 these therapies would do in humans. But the ovaries, they 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:32.640 are a human organ, and they happen to be a 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:37.240 human organ that ages at twice the rate of the 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:39.320 rest of the body. But it also ages in a 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.880 very short period of time. When a woman hits her thirties, 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.400 her reproductive system starts all of a sudden. Her ovaries 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:48.560 in particular start aging very quickly. So you could test 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:53.080 these therapies, these longevity therapies that people think might intervene 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.440 in aging broadly, more broadly, right, not just in one 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.160 organ system like wrapamycin. You could see if it has 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.839 an impact on the ovaries, and that's a much better 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.320 indication in some ways of whether it might have an 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:08.440 indication in humans for longevity than by studying my So 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.480 it could be a really great sort of testing proving 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:13.839 ground for other therapies. 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.040 What's the funding dynamic right now? I know it's been 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.160 a long story about women's health not receiving the funding 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:21.680 or their share of the share of funding that you 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:25.160 would expect. How does longevity and the potential for longevity 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:25.680 play into that? 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:27.560 Oh my gosh, this is one of those things that 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:32.360 any woman who reads this figure are like, what that 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.239 if women were not forced to be included in clinical 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:39.840 trials in the United States until like, very very recently. 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:40.880 I think it's so crazy. 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:43.960 Yeah, I think it was two thousand and nineteen ninety three, 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:46.760 nineteen ninety nin eighty three. Thank you, I don't have 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.160 it in front of me. Yeah, that's so recent. Was 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:51.920 I was in kindergarten then before they started including women 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:55.279 in clinical trials. And that's because there hasn't been interest 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.000 in women's health. But there's a lot of interest in 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:01.400 longevity in you know, lots of people in Silicon Valley 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:05.440 wanting to live forever. And so once you cast the 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.080 problem of the ovaries as a problem not just of 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.240 women's health, but of health for everyone. All of the 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:16.320 major diseases are diseases of aging, right heart disease, dementia. 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.680 They're all diseases brought on by agents. So once you 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:22.200 cast the problem of women's health, it's one that's related 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:25.640 to that. There's been a lot more interest in funding 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.080 startups and funding scientists who are doing. 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:30.080 This work based on your reporting and what you saw 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.840 reporting out this piece help promising is the research that's 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:34.560 being done. 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:37.480 Well, it's promising enough that I have convinced myself will 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:39.800 never have to go through menopause. I'm thirty seven. I 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:41.680 don't know how realistic that is. I don't know how 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.920 realistic that is. But I do think that there's really 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.880 really promising work that is starting to enter human clinical trials. 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:51.320 Not the mouth stuff that's not quite there yet, that's 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.080 a couple of years away. But there's some researchers at 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:57.160 Columbia who are doing something with a popular anti aging 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.880 drug called rapamycin that is entering trials now unrolling people. 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:03.520 And so I think that while we may not have 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:08.000 a way to pause menopause sorry anytime soon, I do 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:11.480 think that we will very soon out of this research 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:17.760 have better indications of how to treat infertility, of how 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.760 to treat the symptoms of menopause when people are going 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:23.400 through it. So I think that this work is very 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.440 promising in that regard, in that for the first time 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:30.080 in a very long time, we're having interest in just 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:35.960 looking at the basic biology of female reproduction and understanding 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.200 how it works. And I think that's going to lead 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:39.680 to many very big breakthroughs. 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:41.600 And Christ And this may be a dumb question in 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.400 terms of a clinical trial, though, if you're treating cancer, 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.680 you can at least compare a placebo versus someone who's 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:49.440 on a drug and how much longer they live. How 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:53.640 do you study the reproduction like that women's reproduction and 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:54.800 whether these work or not. 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.640 That's a good question. Well, so, in previous studies they 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:02.920 have looked at some of the signaling in the ovaries 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:07.040 of women who are slightly older, right like forties, late 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:11.160 thirties versus younger women, and you can see the rapid decline. 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.280 So if you know what to expect at different ages, 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:14.960 and you looked at a large group of people, then 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.240 I think you could see whether you're obviously there's variation 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:20.400 from person to person, but I think that you can 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.760 see whether it's looking more like what you would expect 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.840 of a younger ovary for example, and. 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.080 You you'll go ahead, No, I guess coming back to 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:33.600 the timeline, drug development's risky, it's expensive. Are there companies 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.679 that are funding or a lot of these studies being 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:37.840 done at universities? 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:39.200 Yeah, both both. 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.160 There are some companies in the space. One of the 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:43.400 big companies that I write about that came out of 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:48.280 the guy doing the amazing mousework, Aviva. They say that 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:52.160 their first therapy, which will be for infertility, is a 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:55.559 couple of years away from clinical trials, and their second 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.760 therapy is you know, maybe a couple of years behind 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:02.480 not so, I mean, which which is not a long 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:06.440 time in the time time scale of clinical trials. So 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.480 there are companies that are working on bringing this stuff 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:10.480 to the clinics soon. 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.040 Christian, you made this comment that stuck with me, which 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.400 is in Silicon Valley, a lot of people are interested 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:20.080 in longevity, and that's certainly what we see, and we 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.760 talked to actually Advance yesterday, who you know, had the 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.840 chance to go and visit this lab that and startup 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:28.440 that you know has one hundred and eighty million dollars 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.440 in funding from Sam Waltman, a huge figure in Silicon 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:34.360 Valley right now, do you think we're to the point 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:38.320 where the idea of longevity, the study of longevity, the 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.880 search for the fountain of youth has gone beyond you know, 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.160 these tech billionaires, yes, and is now more widespread. 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:46.880 Yeah, I definitely do. And I think that you have 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.880 to separate the people who want to you know, put 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.200 their brain in some kind of freezer box, in a 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:59.120 computer leader or something. Those guys, this sort of transhumanists, 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:03.120 from the people who really want to understand the biological 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:07.680 mechanisms at the root of aging, because we really don't 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:13.840 understand so much of why aging occurs. Right, Obviously, time environment, 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.040 it wears on the body. But once you begin to 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:20.880 unpack at a molecular level what's happening, then you can 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.960 certainly intervene in it in some way. How how much 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:26.800 effect we can have, who knows, But I think that 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:31.000 we're starting to see interest in not just the sort 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:34.959 of pie and the sky transhumanist, Silicon Valley billionaire stuff, 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:38.360 but the stuff that's doing the basic science that will 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.119 one day lead to better drugs, better therapies. 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:45.240 Well, it makes me have the question about the way 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:49.520 that drug companies approach this, which is treating things that 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:53.199 lead to death, things that you mentioned in your article cancer, 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.840 heart disease, trying to solve for those things rather than 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.959 solving for preventing those things. It's like two different approach 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:00.520 is here? 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.280 Yeah, it's two different approaches And I think a lot 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.520 of that comes down to it. It's hard to know, 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:08.160 Like we talked about why the ovary is such a 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:10.920 good model for this, right, how do you know if 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.840 your aging therapy is working? You have to follow people 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:15.840 for a really long time, which doesn't mean they won't 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:20.040 happen eventually, right, But in drug development, a lot of 0:11:20.040 --> 0:11:23.600 what happens is we figure out something works, but we 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:27.360 don't know why it works. With aging research, we're trying 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:31.600 to figure out why do things stop working, and then 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:33.880 how do we intervene in that. So it is fundamentally 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.200 two different approaches, and I think that they're both valid, right, 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.920 But to intervene in aging, I think we're really going 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:44.920 to have to understand the fundamental basic biology here, which 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:47.120 is stuff that takes a lot of time and a 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:47.920 lot of money. 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:50.040 Well, one of the numbers that stood out to me 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.080 was in the story you have It, the market for 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.040 longevity drugs could reach more than forty four billion dollars 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.120 within the next decade. I look at that. Everyone wants 0:11:58.120 --> 0:12:00.760 to talk about GLP ones and that's hundred billion dollar 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:04.559 market value. So I'm surprised that there's not more funding 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:08.480 and more of an advancement from private equity venture capital 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.800 given that. I mean, it's more than double. But that's 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.360 not a small pool of money, right, Yeah, it's not off. 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:16.120 It's not a small pool of money. But I think 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:17.960 that the time scale and how hard it is to 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.080 know whether it's working does make it a riskier intervention 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.480 versus weightless. You know, you either lose the weight or 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:24.319 you don't sell. 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:26.800 It's light easier. Everyone's on it. 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:30.040 Everyone's on it, so we're told. So I hear. 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.040 Okay, we only have a couple of minutes left, but 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:34.760 I wanted to make sure to get to other stories 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.800 that you've written recently, because you've been very busy. It's 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:39.800 not just the cover story of Bloomberg Business. You also 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.360 have a story out about sick shaming, pushing Americans to 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.000 take too much cold medicine. We're talking about this during 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:48.000 the break, and it's like, what's going on here? Because 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.240 when we're in you know, quote unquote lockdowns, when we're 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.560 all working from home, we were never sick. Now everyone's 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.320 coming back to the office, kids are back in school, 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:01.480 in daycare. I'm sick all the time, and we're just 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:03.319 like mainlining suit of fed. 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:04.120 Is that what's going on? 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:04.360 Yeah? 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:06.840 Okay, So this story actually came out of a personal 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.640 experience of my own. I've started just carrying around cough 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.360 drops and I take them all the time, even if 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:15.760 the reason I have a cough is because I swallowed 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.320 something weird, or you know, it's wintertime. It's very dry 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.240 in the Bloomberg offices, right now, so my makes my 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.560 throat always dry, so I just pop cough drops even 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:25.520 when I'm not sick. 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:27.319 You can know that I can go to you for coffee. 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:29.560 Yeah yeah, I have. I have a huge stash in 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:31.839 my desk, so come on by h And I started 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:33.760 to wonder are other people doing this? 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:35.960 Is it good for you? 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:37.720 It can't be good for you to take this main 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.079 cough drops. I mean the calories alone, right, got to 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:44.839 add up. That's why you need the GLP ones anyways, 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.720 So so we looked into it. I looked into it 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:53.000 with our great reporter Kaye Lapara, and we found that absolutely, 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.320 you can take too much cough and cold medicine. It 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.040 is not a good idea, and that this is a 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.960 thing that is happening. People feel pressure to go to work, 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:03.079 to go to Thanksgiving dinner, to go to happy hours 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:07.240 even though they're not feeling great. But they don't want 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.320 to have people looking at them giving them that look 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:11.240 like why are you here even though you're sick. So 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.160 people are just doing what I'm doing and taking tons 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:15.960 of cough medicine and. 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:17.640 Just looking at some of the numbers, I mean US 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.920 sales of upper respiratory over the counter medications of twenty 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:23.320 three percent to almost twelve billion dollars in the fifty 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:24.720 two weeks through early December. 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:27.840 Great for them, bad for us. 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:28.920 It's bad for us. 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.800 Yeah, totally. I mean, I feel like I'm coming down 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:33.200 to something just talking about this. 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.400 Probably got it from me. Yeah, just kidding. 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:38.440 Well, I'll get some cough drops from me. Okay. 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:38.680 Hey. 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.320 Check out all of Christian's stories available on the Bloomberg 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:43.520 Terminal and at Bloomberg dot com, and pick up the 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.720 new issue of Bloomberg BusinessWeek. It's the Longevity issue on Newstance. 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.200 It's already online at Bloomberg dot com, slash BusinessWeek and 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.120 on the Bloomberg Terminal. Kristin B. Brown is healthcare reporter 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:54.920 for Bloomberg News. Joining us this afternoon and the Bloomberg 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:56.120 Interactive broke their studio. 0:14:56.320 --> 0:15:03.840 This is Business Week. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.480 Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:08.920 six Eastern Listen. 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.640 On Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and. 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:15.000 The Bloomberg Business App, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.120 The title of managing director at Wall Street Firms is 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:23.040 typically the most senior rank in finance apart from those 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.240 who are executives. It's a position that comes with enhanced 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:30.800 compensation and presumably power, and women at that level are 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.760 often touted by banks as examples of how gender is 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:38.000 no bar to advancement. But Ardith Lindsay, who joined City 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.200 Bank back in two thousand and seven, is now suing 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:43.560 the bank, accusing it of tolerating years of sexual harassment 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:47.400 and assault against her. Says seniority didn't protect her, nor 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:50.400 did the elevation of another woman, Jane Fraser, to be 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.960 Citygroup's chief executive officer. This is one of the most 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.160 read stories on the Bloomberg terminal page. Smith wrote it. 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.960 She's consumer finance reporter at Bloomberg News and she's here 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:03.760 in the Bloomberg Interactive broker's studio page. Good to see you. 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:06.920 This is a really powerful and important story. Tell us 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:08.720 who Artith Lindsay is. 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.880 Hey, folks, thanks for having me, and this is a 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:16.040 really important story. And Ardith sat down with me and 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:19.560 recently and told me sort of her side of the story. 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.400 And we have poured over the complaint that she filed 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:28.040 against City on November twentieth, and as you sort of said, 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.760 you know, the one thing that really struck a number 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:33.960 of folks who have heard her story as the fact 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:38.000 that Ardith sort of rose through the ranks within city 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:43.280 and was, you know, reached that very you know, it's 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:46.640 a it's a significant achievement on Wall Street to have 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:51.800 the title of managing director and Artith Artith achieved that 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.880 achieved that goal during her period and during her tenure 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:58.360 and career at the bank. And she's not alone. She's 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.040 not the first managing director to come forward with allegations 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:06.879 of toxic workplace culture and harassment and just kind of 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.440 horrific mistreatment across the board. She's joined by a number 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.960 of other women who have come forward to tell their 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:17.640 stories from places like Goldman Sachs and other Wall Street 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:19.480 institutions as well. 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.480 In the story, there are a few people quoted who 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:26.480 said it gets worse. There was a subhead in your 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:29.879 story just it gets worse. Can you talk about why 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:33.160 that is and what these people that you interviewed actually 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.000 said that they're working at a firm, they're getting more 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.120 and more senior, but they're women, and so somehow their 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.520 experience at the firm is getting more unpleasant. 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:46.320 Certainly, so one person that I interviewed for this story 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.400 was Jamie Fiori Higgins. She's a former Goldman Sachs managing 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:53.879 director and in twenty twenty two she actually wrote a 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:55.680 book about her experience called. 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:57.680 Bully Market had on the program. 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:00.879 Yeah, and it was a very very compelling story. And 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.000 you know, I interviewed her and she had the chance 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.119 to review artist's complaints in her allegations mentioned in the 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.080 lawsuit against city. And you know, she said, based on 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:13.880 her experience at Goldman Sachs that there, as you sort 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:17.800 of ascend that corporate ladder, if you will, the stakes 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.800 get higher as you get high. As you get higher, 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:25.600 essentially with the hierarchy, the compensation is much greater. There's 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:28.560 more leverage, and as she said, banks sort of have 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.159 the leverage to say, well, where else are you going 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.600 to go that pays you this much? And you know, 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.960 for women on Wall Street, it's there have been many 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:41.560 claims and stories and allegations of this sort of so 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.159 called boys culture or locker room culture on places like 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:48.800 training room floors and places that have been historically occupied 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:54.560 by men. And it's extremely challenging for women still in 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:57.920 today's day and age to be promoted to managing directors. 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.400 So you were able to speak with artists at length 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:03.800 about this, you were able to look at the lawsuit 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.840 and the allegations contained in the lawsuit for its part, 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:09.399 What did City say when you presented them with what 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:09.960 you've learned? 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:13.240 So City referred us to a sort of a previous 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:18.560 statement that they that they mentioned. But you know, City 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:23.120 did call one of the named individuals and artists complaint, 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:28.320 They did call the conduct deplorable, and they did have 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:31.920 the they have had had this time to review the 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:37.520 allegations contained in artist's complaint. But you know, it was 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:41.360 also interesting that after the fact, City came forward and 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:46.840 actually issued a memo that essentially advised traders to anyone 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:50.159 within se City actually to come forward and sort of 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.720 raise a flag if they see anything along the lines 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:55.920 of mistreatment or misconduct in the workplace. 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.399 And she's right now on leave from city, correct, So 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.080 we know, we don't know how this plays out, if 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:05.880 she will actually return in her previous capacity to the firm. 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:10.040 Indeed, and I think that it's also very important to 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.199 note that these are allegations. This is a lawsuit that's 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.520 run forward and been brought forward, and we have to 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.880 sort of let the legal process proceed as it may. 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:23.440 But it is worth noting that, just to step back here, 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:26.960 there have been multiple lawsuits brought against other banks as well, 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:30.240 not just City Group. Smith Barney settled for one hundred 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:33.800 and fifty million. That was the infamous nineteen nineties Boom 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:37.840 Boom room lawsuit. But there have been many, many, other, 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:43.879 many other instances describing workplace misconduct on Wall Street firms. 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:45.440 Within Wall Street firms. 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:49.119 You mentioned City kind of telling employees they should raise 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:53.080 a flag. What exactly does that mean, you know, raise 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:55.960 a flag to other misconduct. Are the big banks actually 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:00.880