1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:01,240 Speaker 1: Dear listener. 2 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 2: Before we start, a quick note to say that this 3 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 2: episode mentions suicide. 4 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 3: My mother calls me every few weeks, usually late in 5 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 3: the afternoon for me, which is super late at night 6 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 3: for her in Spain. Oh get done. 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 4: Yeah. 8 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 3: She talks to me about the family, whatever's happening in 9 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 3: her life. She's usually worried about something like money. Money 10 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 3: and stability have always been a big thing in my family. 11 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 3: Her latest worry is a war in Ukraine and how 12 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 3: that's wiping away her retirement savings. 13 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, this is taking. 14 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 3: I'm not sure if my mother was always like that. 15 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 3: She grew up in a well of family in Seville, Spain. 16 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 3: But my father, on the other hand, he grew up 17 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 3: working class and spent most of his life trying to 18 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 3: better himself. I think it's safe to describing as conservative 19 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 3: in the way to see life and work, to work hard, 20 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 3: to save money. You don't take risks, you care about 21 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 3: success and what other people say. 22 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 6: Your normalot. 23 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 3: My mother and I don't usually talk about personal stuff, 24 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 3: but some years ago I interviewed her for a video 25 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 3: documentary I was working on. Initially, documentary was about the 26 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 3: Spanish two thousand and eight economic crisis. Then it got 27 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 3: all complicated. I'll come back to that. But that day 28 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 3: I asked her questions I had never asked her before, 29 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:34,839 Speaker 3: like what she failed when I moved to the US 30 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 3: over two decades ago. 31 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 6: Familiar. 32 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 3: She says she never quite believed that I had left. 33 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 3: That no one ever thinks that their son is not 34 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 3: going to come back when they leave. That it was 35 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 3: hard for her. She says she even feels like crying 36 00:01:54,040 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 3: just talking about it decades later. No, the day I left, 37 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 3: she got the time of the bus from Seville to 38 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 3: Madrid wrong. I was flying out of Madrid to JFK 39 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 3: in New York City. My mother showed up at the 40 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 3: bus station where my friends had gathered to say goodbye 41 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 3: with the container of a Spanish hamon, but my bus 42 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 3: had just left. It was a blow for her. I 43 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 3: had no idea she could remember that day. I barely 44 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 3: remember that day. But then again, I forget so many things. 45 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 3: I seem to erase memories after a while so they 46 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 3: don't hurt. I was twenty five back then. I'm forty 47 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 3: six now. 48 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 6: Our boys pratap today. 49 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 3: My mother feels that the United States is as much 50 00:02:56,200 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 3: my homeland as Spain. As Ville, and hearing these makes 51 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 3: me feel like, maybe to a certain extent, she understands 52 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: what I've been going through. There are two kinds of immigrants. Heck, 53 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 3: they're probably five hundred kinds of immigrants, but let's just 54 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: say for now that there are two kinds, the ones 55 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 3: who don't look back and the ones who spend their 56 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 3: lives looking back. I've done a bit of both. I've 57 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 3: ordered Flamenco CITs from Brooklyn. I have held onto my 58 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 3: friendships in Spain for decades. I've had to learn how 59 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 3: to dance a Viannas. I've bought a house in Los Angeles. 60 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 3: I've learned how to drive in New York. I've seen 61 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 3: Prince in Vegas, Dabis in New York, BUMBOI in La 62 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 3: i'f worked myself to the ground day after day. I've 63 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 3: felt at home in Brooklyn. I've gone back home for 64 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 3: Christmas to Spain every single year, and through the years, 65 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 3: through the decades, I've asked myself time after time, where 66 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 3: should I be? But version of myself is more true, 67 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: more real? What is it that matters to me most? 68 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 3: What makes me happy? Should I stop looking back or 69 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 3: should I simply go back to where I'm from, wants 70 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 3: and for all. 71 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: From Futuro Media and PRX. It's Latino USA. I'm Marie 72 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 2: nor Josa Today an exploration of one person's migration story 73 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 2: and the endless search for happiness. Dear listener, you know 74 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: on this show we feature many stories of migrants, often 75 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 2: migrants who are dealing with incredible hurdles and for whom 76 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: the process just to get to the United States is 77 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: incredibly arduous. But even in the best of circumstances, migration 78 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: can take a toll. Today we're welcoming back the former 79 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: senior producer of Latino USA, Miguel Massias, and he's going 80 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: to take it away for today's episode with a very 81 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: special story, the story of a lifetime, or as he 82 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 2: calls it, limbo, la ca. 83 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 4: And malo. 84 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,799 Speaker 3: The story starts in twenty twelve. That year started taking 85 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 3: interviews with my friends in Spain. The two thousand and 86 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 3: eight economic crisis was four years in and not going 87 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 3: away anytime soon. I saw many of my friends keep 88 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 3: up on their dreams of a more fulfilling life as 89 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 3: I watched from the outside. So we talked. We talked 90 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 3: for hours and hours about the crisis, politics, society Spain. 91 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 3: Our generation vive again against Sevillia, Mederico amleric America. My 92 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 3: generation was born around the time Franco, the Spanish dictator died. 93 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 3: We grew up up and their new democracy full of 94 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 3: promise that things would be better for us, better than 95 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 3: for our parents, not just politically but also economically. But 96 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 3: the crisis took away that promise. By then, being in 97 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 3: the US for more than a decade, I had a 98 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 3: stable job as a professor teaching ready production at Brooklyn 99 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 3: College in New York City, And at that moment, when 100 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 3: so many of my friends were basically drowning, I felt 101 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 3: lucky to live somewhere else, to have some instability. Yeah, 102 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,679 Speaker 3: that's my friend. Pablo, an architect. Studying architecture in Spain, 103 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 3: seemed like a great idea for a while for my 104 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 3: generation when construction was booming, until it wasn't until the 105 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 3: crisis devastated the sector. Works started to dry up progressively, 106 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 3: until there was no work for Pablo. He was unemployed 107 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 3: for years. He went into a dark place, taking that 108 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 3: at forty years old, he had nothing to show for 109 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 3: his life, you know, saying, wondering what could happened to him? 110 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 3: In twenty years and memo they do, he started doubting 111 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 3: himself everything you expect to feel when you're unemployed for 112 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 3: a long time. He knew these feelings for coming, and 113 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 3: he still suffered from them. 114 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 5: So I. 115 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 3: Who As I listened to my friends talking about a 116 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 3: system that felt like it was falling apart, I told 117 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 3: myself why would there be a place for me in 118 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 3: this society? And they told me too, you know certain terms, Miguel, 119 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 3: don't come back to Spain now. 120 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: It's horrible. 121 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 3: Well here, So for me at that moment, the crisis 122 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 3: took away a different kind of promise, my dream to 123 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 3: go back to Spain one day. 124 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 7: I'm going to fat me familiar. 125 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 3: I am, by all means, a privileged immigrant. I came 126 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 3: to the US because I wanted to. I was able 127 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 3: to study, get a job. I even had support from 128 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 3: my family in my early years here. I guess we 129 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 3: could say that I've been fairly successful too, So I 130 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: could have gone back to Spain anytime. I can go 131 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 3: back now if I want to. But for some reason, 132 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 3: while I once feel free to leave, I never failed. 133 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 3: I had earned the right to go back, and I 134 00:08:58,040 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 3: could have gone back to in those years if you 135 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 3: and for the crisis, but instead I used every opportunity 136 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 3: I had to spend time in Spain and these interviews. 137 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 3: They became a way to get to know my friends better, 138 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 3: get to know what they thought about me. 139 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 8: But just one thing, seriously, Miguel, can I really ask 140 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 8: you questions? 141 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 3: Yeah? I'm saying that if the conversation leads to you 142 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 3: asking me questions, I will answer them. 143 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: Are you ready for my questions? 144 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: Marie Angeles is one of my best friends in Spain. 145 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 3: She has a way to cut through the crab when 146 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 3: she speaks. I interviewed her twice for my documentary about 147 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 3: the crisis, but by the second time I sat down 148 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 3: with her in twenty sixteen after Terras overlooking the center 149 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 3: of Seville, the same place where we have had so 150 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 3: many parties over the years. By them, my conversations with 151 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 3: my friends had turned a lot more personal. 152 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 8: Miradioto, I think that you are part of your group 153 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 8: of friends in Pain as much as if you lived here. 154 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 9: Now. 155 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 8: They're happy when you visit, but they don't miss you 156 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 8: when you're not here. To do you consider them your people? 157 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 3: I do. They are my people, but they miss a 158 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 3: great part of my life the same way that I 159 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 3: miss a great part of their lives. 160 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 9: When you, I have one more question for you. 161 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: Do you ever think about coming back? 162 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 4: Woman? 163 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 3: Do I think about it? I think about it all 164 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 3: the time. Don't tell you where do you think I'll 165 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 3: be in ten years? 166 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 1: You'll be there. I think you just don't want to 167 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: come back. 168 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 3: I did want to go back. I still do. And 169 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: hearing many of my friends say that I didn't kind 170 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 3: of broke my heart because it made me feel that 171 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 3: they were seeing something I couldn't see. That I had 172 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 3: reached a point on our return. In my mind, I 173 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 3: just never found a moment to come back. I always 174 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 3: imagined there would be this time in my life when 175 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 3: I would be successful enough to be able to make 176 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 3: some kind of triumph, overturn, to finally rest, to even 177 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 3: be happy, build the house, work on my own things, 178 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 3: don't have to worry about my career anymore. And that 179 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 3: moment has never come. So I'm not sure how ten 180 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 3: years have passed since twenty twelve and I still had 181 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 3: not been able to make a decision because I'm afraid, 182 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 3: afraid that twenty years of my life could evaporate without 183 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 3: a trace if I went back, afraid that my achievements 184 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 3: would not mean much in Spain, that I couldn't even 185 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 3: get a good job, Afraid that the past two decades 186 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 3: of my life, the effort, the fighting, sacrifice, the loneliness 187 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 3: good amount to nothing. It's an immigrant's worst nimer, going 188 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 3: back with nothing to show for. And while this magna 189 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 3: actually be true, those are my fears, and fears have 190 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 3: a way to stink up on your decisions, to convince 191 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 3: you that the worst case scenario is real. 192 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 2: Coming up on Latino USA, Limbo continues, stay with us, 193 00:12:34,160 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 2: not us. Hey, we're back and we've been listening to Limbo. 194 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 2: Miguel Massias is going to pick up the story from 195 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 2: here once again. 196 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 3: The first time I ever visited the US, long before 197 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 3: I moved, was in nineteen ninety one, when I was 198 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 3: fifteen years old. My father was obsessed with the need 199 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 3: to speak English to succeed in life, who was also 200 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 3: obsessed with succeeding in life, So my parents signed me 201 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 3: up to one of those summer programs where you spent 202 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 3: a couple of months with an American family. I spent 203 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 3: a few summers over the years with PEG and make 204 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 3: my host family in the US who made me feel 205 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 3: home in Delaware. I kept coming back. I guess I 206 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 3: liked it there. I don't really remember Alurdees, who was 207 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 3: my girlfriend at the time. She does. 208 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: Americana. 209 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 3: She remembers me connecting with the US when I was young. 210 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 3: She even still has handwritten letters that I sent her 211 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 3: during those summers. I will tell her about everything that 212 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 3: I observed with. 213 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 6: Bright eyes to look. 214 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 3: And I remember the night before I visited the US 215 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 3: for the first time. I have this image of walking 216 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 3: into my room and seeing a battle of a scotch 217 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 3: and a box of cannons on my table. It took 218 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 3: me a few seconds to understand that my parents have 219 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 3: found and where they were hitting in my room. I 220 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 3: was fifteen years old, and I was a difficult teenager, 221 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 3: but I didn't keep me from getting straight ace in 222 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 3: high school. My mother, who's a psychologist, took me into 223 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 3: her home office to talk to me about the obvious 224 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 3: risks of drinking and having sex. At that age, all 225 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 3: I could think about was the five that the next morning, 226 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 3: I had a ticket to jump on a plane and 227 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 3: travel to Delaware. That was my first summer in the US. 228 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 3: Many followed in the nineties, So when I decided that 229 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 3: I wanted to go leave somewhere else. The United States 230 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 3: seemed like the logical place for me to go. In 231 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 3: January two thousand and one, I packed the suitcase, got 232 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 3: a job as a waiter in the West Village, and 233 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 3: I started to count the years five, ten, fifteen, twenty, 234 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 3: almost half of my life. 235 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: At this point. 236 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 3: My initial goal was done necessarily to stay in New 237 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 3: York permanently. I wanted to study ready production for a 238 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 3: year maybe two, enrolled in the master's program, I got 239 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 3: a student visa, and I started working as a teaching 240 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 3: assistant at Brooklyn College. I thought I was going to 241 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 3: go back to Spain with my fantasy title and score 242 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 3: a great job. I had spent a bunch of time 243 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 3: in Spain after college, working in bars and clubs, playing 244 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 3: guitar in a rock band, just being young, so when 245 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 3: I moved to New York at twenty five years old, 246 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 3: I was ready to accomplish things. For a few years, 247 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 3: I just put my head down to study and work 248 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: at all times, except for when I went back to 249 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 3: Spain for the summer for Christmas. I remember having the 250 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 3: fit in during those years that I had started running, 251 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 3: running at all times, and that I was never going 252 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 3: to stop. 253 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 9: You were so busy during that time, even before you 254 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 9: began in school. I remember you were always very busy. 255 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 9: You were working a lot of hours. 256 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 3: And it was a professor of mine in grad school. 257 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 3: She met me just a few weeks after I arrived 258 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 3: in New York in two thousand and one. She's been 259 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 3: a patient mentor, even though I've disappointed her a few 260 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 3: times throughout the years with my decisions. 261 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 9: Do you remember how you felt then. 262 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 3: I think when I was just I was very excited 263 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 3: about my potential. You know, at the time, I thought 264 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 3: that I may have a lot of talent, and I 265 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 3: was very excited about what I could accomplish, and I 266 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 3: was convinced that I was going to achieve great things. Basically, 267 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 3: I worked with it in a on my master's thesis project. 268 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 3: It was a long audio experimental documentary about romantic love 269 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 3: called Chasing Love. It was really important to me. I 270 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 3: thought I was gonna win all the awards or something. 271 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 10: I've been in love and it was a physical feeling. 272 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 11: It wasn't like. 273 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 10: The idea of oh no, we'll be together, that would 274 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 10: be great. 275 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 4: It was a feeling in my stomach. 276 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 5: People just take love at face value, you know, like, oh, 277 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 5: they're married, so they're in love. 278 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: They love each other. But you're like, what, there's definitely 279 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: things going on in our body. 280 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 6: To touch other people, you know. 281 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 2: That's that's definitely true. 282 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 9: I think in the present that you are a very, 283 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 9: very extremely talented person, but maybe I always felt that 284 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 9: you creativity was like very sleepery. I felt that you 285 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 9: were sabotaging yourself the whole time. Your whole life in 286 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 9: Brooklyn College was very general with other people. But I 287 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 9: think to a point of being an excuse not to 288 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 9: sit down and confront the creative project because at the 289 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 9: end of the day, we always afraid of rejection. 290 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 3: She's right, I am afraid of rejection. That's why the 291 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 3: creative process is something that has haunted me for years. 292 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 3: Creativity is a slippery indeed, and I needed to take risks, 293 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 3: but I've always been risk averse. So instead I turned 294 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 3: to my professional development as the thing to be proud of. 295 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 3: I made it the reason why I came to this country, 296 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 3: and success, progress, accomplishment became crucial for me, and so 297 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 3: I worked. I worked a lot of times in two 298 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 3: thousand and four, after graduating from Brooklyn College. I was 299 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 3: offered a job in public radio, and I couldn't turn 300 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 3: it down. And that's what I told myself, that I 301 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 3: couldn't turn it down. There could surely be another chances 302 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 3: to go back to Spain. Funny how I keep telling 303 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 3: myself the same thing. Decades later, then no longer after 304 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 3: I started my job as a ready producer, I met Julia. 305 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 3: Her name is not actually Julia, but we'll call her Dad. 306 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 3: We fell in love, started spending almost every single night together, 307 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 3: then moved into a beautiful apartment in Brooklyn. We got married. 308 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 3: Julia brought along perhaps the happiest moments of my life 309 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: in the US. I felt I was growing roots. I 310 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 3: loved the life that we had. We eloped, went to 311 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 3: montog for our honeymoon. We were a team and we 312 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 3: could do anything we wanted. So we picked up and 313 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 3: moved to La Julia taught me so many of the 314 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 3: things I know about this country. As an immigrant, I've 315 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 3: always been worried about assimilating, but with Julia, I actually 316 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 3: understood so many things. Politics, culture. She made me a 317 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 3: football fan. We go to the bars on Sundays, eat wings, 318 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: drink meer and cheer for the Steelers. Went to Dodger 319 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 3: Steadium quite a few times to see many ramdas are 320 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 3: bad rocks and closing games. I once cooked the rabbit 321 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 3: paija for a bunch of friends in the messing yard 322 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 3: that we had I felt like I was growing up. 323 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 3: That was the time when I was the farthest away 324 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 3: from Seville, both literally and spirit. But I will still 325 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 3: go back for Christmas every year. There's a picture Julia 326 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 3: wants to come me in Spain. I'm laughing, my head 327 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 3: tilted back while hanging out with friends on a Sunday 328 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 3: Friday afternoon. One day. While looking at that picture, Ulett 329 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 3: says something I will never forget. When you're in Spain, 330 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 3: you're like a different person. Even the way you laugh 331 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 3: is different. I couldn't understand what she meant by that. 332 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 3: Then over the years I spoke to other immigrants about it. 333 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 3: They all had heard the same thing. I've never been 334 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 3: able to understand the differences between my two identities. Like 335 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 3: I couldn't give you an example. It's more like what 336 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 3: I hear from people who know me about the way 337 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 3: I laugh, the way I interact with other people, the 338 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 3: faces I make. But there's also something else something that 339 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 3: has shaped my identity deeply. 340 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 2: M hmm. 341 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 3: So how do you think about the meaning of life? 342 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 5: Then? 343 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 7: I mean, oh, you know you're not gonna ask me 344 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 7: that question. 345 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I mean that's ridiculous. That can be the 346 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: first question. 347 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 7: Are you crazy? 348 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,719 Speaker 3: That's my good friend Sally. She emigrated from Brazil decade 349 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 3: to go. She's one of my closest friends in Brooklyn, 350 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: and she has seen me navigate all the changes in 351 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 3: my life. 352 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 7: Ultimately, I think it's about daily survival, but it's also 353 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 7: about the love and the connection you make with people. Yeah, 354 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 7: in general, I am a half glassful person, I guess. 355 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 7: But it's funny because I see you that way as well. 356 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 7: I know you've struggled with your depression, but it never 357 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 7: transpired in our relationship. I know that happens in your 358 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 7: life because you tell me, but it's not something I experience, 359 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 7: and I actually my interactions with you, I see you 360 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 7: as a happy person. 361 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 3: I am optimistic, you know, as a way to survive, 362 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 3: you know. Okay, So I just need to think positively 363 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 3: about where things are going to go, because otherwise I 364 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 3: will be depressed all the freaking time, basically, you know. 365 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 7: But It's also interesting that I feel like, not only 366 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 7: our interactions, I find you are a happy person. You 367 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,719 Speaker 7: are always enjoyable to be around. You're a positive person. 368 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 7: But I feel like you also have it so together, 369 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 7: Like you are one of the most punctual people I know, 370 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 7: and I'm pretty punctual. 371 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 3: I have suffered from chronic depression since I was a teenager. 372 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 3: I've done all the things that you can do, therapy, medication. 373 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 3: I am stupidly proud of never missing a day at work, 374 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 3: never saying no to a plan with friends, but all 375 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 3: the while I was suffering. The other thing that I 376 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 3: thought sometimes is that being an immigrant always kind of 377 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 3: it's complicated mentally, right to some extent, you know, I mean, 378 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 3: you know I suffer from depression, you know, a decade 379 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 3: before I moved to the US. But it's true that 380 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: it's you know, you had to develop a little bit 381 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 3: of a different personality in a different language, right. There was 382 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 3: a time when I was young, when I was openly sad. 383 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 3: My friends in college knew me as someone who was 384 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 3: always thinking, questioning, but also sad. I was convinced I 385 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 3: wouldn't make it to an old age. I don't know 386 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 3: how far I thought I would get, but suicide was 387 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 3: a real option in my mind. Then one day, I'm 388 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 3: not sure why, I decided I did not want people 389 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 3: to see me that way again, so I stopped showing 390 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 3: my saddness. When I moved to the US, I had 391 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 3: a change to develop a different reputation, not just in 392 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 3: the way people saw me, but also in the way 393 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 3: I thought about myself. I only told my closest friends 394 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 3: about my depression, and when I did, I felt I 395 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 3: was putting my life in their hands. I saw it 396 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,959 Speaker 3: as a weakness, a liability. I was convinced that if 397 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 3: I told people, they would never look at me in 398 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 3: the same way. And even with people I told, I 399 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 3: never really showed in my suffering. But my wife Julia 400 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 3: did see a lot of that suffering, and she suffered 401 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 3: with me as a consequence of it. She didn't know 402 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 3: what to do when I would sit on the bed 403 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 3: in the morning and stare at the floor and able 404 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 3: to explain what was going through my head. There are 405 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 3: two interesting things about suffering. When is that after the years, 406 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 3: if you make it, you know you can survive it. 407 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 3: So when something difficult actually happens, it might not even 408 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 3: make you that sad because it's something real. After all, 409 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 3: suffering for a reason it's much teacher than suffering for 410 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 3: no reason. The other interesting thing is that you wanted 411 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 3: to stop, and so you're always thinking about what to 412 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 3: do to stop it. And I don't mean hurting yourself, 413 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 3: although those thoughts are always lurking around. I mean wondering 414 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 3: what other life will make you happier, a different job, 415 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 3: a different city, buying something, selling something, meeting someone, breaking 416 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 3: up with someone. In January twenty twelfth, Julian and I separated. 417 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 3: We had moved back to New York a few years before. 418 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 3: I thought it would be okay, but I wasn't because 419 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 3: it touched the core of my identity in this country. 420 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 3: I felt uprooted, out of place, lost. I moved into 421 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,479 Speaker 3: a room in Prosperate Heights, sharing an apartment with two 422 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 3: young women medical students. I'll get up every day before dawn, 423 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 3: could have had the same breakfast at the same local cafe, 424 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 3: then had to work, stay way past my teaching hours 425 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 3: and only return home late at night. I felt like 426 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 3: an immigrant all over again. And then something happened, the 427 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 3: moment that has stretched over the years for me that 428 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 3: never really ended, I'm not gonna see you. 429 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 5: When I met you, I don't know Miguel, because what 430 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,360 Speaker 5: do I say, how American you seem to me when 431 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 5: I met you the large shirt. Well, when I met Miguel, 432 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 5: Miguel was a very strange American. 433 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 3: I met Maria outside of the Barnesville. People love to 434 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,719 Speaker 3: be out on the streets in the South of Spain, 435 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 3: letting the hours go by while you talk about nothing 436 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 3: in particular. And there's nothing in the world I love 437 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 3: more than getting together with a group of friends outside. 438 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 3: You can send the what's up message at one pm, 439 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 3: and about two thirty pm you have eight people together 440 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 3: some bar in the sun, and no one makes plans 441 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,360 Speaker 3: for later because you know you'll be there for hours. 442 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 3: So Maria pointed at me from inside the bar. I 443 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 3: looked around and get shired me. She said, no, no, 444 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 3: the friend next to you. Maria came out of the 445 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 3: bar and Marie Angeles, my friend, introduced us. We smiled 446 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 3: at each other a lot, didn't talk much. Nothing happened 447 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 3: that night, but I hoped we would run into each 448 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 3: other again, which happens a lot when you spend hours 449 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 3: us at the bars talking about nothing in particular, we 450 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 3: run into each other another night, and so it began. 451 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 5: I really think that when I first noticed your personality change, 452 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 5: when I realized you went from an Spanish to an 453 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 5: American way of being, was in the last part of 454 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 5: our trip to the United States. 455 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 1: When we arrived in New York, were able to tell 456 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: him new. 457 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 3: And it did not take long for Maria to realize 458 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 3: there was Miguel in Spain and Miguel in the US. 459 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 5: Month you became much more serious, You look down more faster, 460 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 5: talk to me less. 461 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 3: Maria and I fell in love very quickly. I guess 462 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 3: everybody falls in love very quickly, but it was really special. 463 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 3: Me and Maria started a period of my life when 464 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 3: I would use every opportunity I had to go back 465 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 3: to Spain. I would love my big suitcase, close up 466 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 3: my little farming in Crown Heights, and take off for 467 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 3: months at a time. Every time I had to go 468 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 3: back to New York. It was heartbreaking to separate from 469 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 3: Maria and my friends every single time, and it did 470 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 3: not get easier over the years. This conversation was recorded 471 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen in Spain. We had actually broken up 472 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 3: after a really tough stretch for both of us. We 473 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 3: sat in an empty livingroom room to talk with the 474 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 3: song coming to the windows. What role do you think 475 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 3: my visits to Spain play. 476 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 5: I think it's a role of of alm. I mean, 477 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 5: your visits have a nourishment role. Nourishment in many ways. 478 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 5: You eat all the tapas in town, and I think 479 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 5: it also contributes to your survival, because I don't know 480 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 5: how sustainable a life like the one you lead is 481 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 5: without having a little bit of affection from time to time. 482 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: There. 483 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 5: And you do have friends there, but I think relationships 484 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 5: here are more about touching and also more about laughing. 485 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 3: My kids, I do laugh a lot more here. 486 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, come on, and also you always come wanting to laugh, 487 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 5: sitting down with your friends and seeing that everything is 488 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 5: the same. I don't know I would say that you're home. 489 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 5: I know you wouldn't say it, but these are things 490 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 5: that make you feel like you're at home. 491 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 3: And I held on to those things over the years. 492 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 3: I don't know if it was a choice I made 493 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 3: with the sway of the small things that made me 494 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 3: feel home in Spain. My friends are a huge part 495 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 3: of it. But then the Maria we continued to see 496 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 3: each other after breaking up, and naturally, after a while, 497 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 3: we came back together. During that time, one of those days, 498 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 3: walking down the streets in Spain, Maria asked me what 499 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 3: I thought love was, and I told her something like 500 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 3: it is full trust, it is scaring, understanding, support, really 501 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 3: knowing each other, or lets for you and I have, 502 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 3: and out of the corner of my eye, I saw 503 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 3: her hold back her tears. Another day, when I had 504 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 3: just arrived on the US, she helped me on the 505 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 3: subway and told me it's just a life's better when 506 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 3: we're together. And I stayed there, hugging her, silent so 507 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,239 Speaker 3: that she could not see that I was holding back tears. 508 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 3: I would feel deeply lonely in New York after spending 509 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 3: months surrounded by my friends and my girlfriend. But I 510 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 3: would also struggle when I spend long periods of times 511 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 3: since Seville without my usual work routines. Routines are a 512 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 3: big thing for me. It's how I fight depression. A 513 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 3: few years later, I got ten years a brooking college, 514 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 3: yet one more reason not to give up everything I 515 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 3: had accomplished. But I kept recording interviews with my friends 516 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 3: in Spain. 517 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 9: YO, take well, you're not going to Squaikistan and. 518 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 12: Conro. 519 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 3: I also taped hours and hours of me just hanging 520 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 3: out with my friends, tape that I stored on a 521 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 3: hard drive, tap that I hadn't looked at much the 522 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 3: past ten years of my life. In video, as if 523 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 3: I was trying to hold onto those moments, I said, 524 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 3: they were not happening unless I was stepping them. 525 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't send you the book Wherever you Go, 526 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 4: There you Are. 527 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: I didn't insist that you read it. 528 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 3: I didn't read it. Now, whatever you go, there you. 529 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: Are, tell me we have Wherever you go, there you Are. 530 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 4: It's a famous book about exactly that you know that 531 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,760 Speaker 4: there is no better place. 532 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 3: Lisa, I said, dear friend for my alleged years. We 533 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 3: were really close back then. Now we talk less stuff then, 534 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 3: but I still consider her one of my closest friends 535 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 3: in the US. We talked about this notion that your 536 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 3: problems travel with you. 537 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 11: I don't think it's untrue that somebody can be happier 538 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 11: in a certain environment then in another. 539 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: You know, I don't think that that's untrue. 540 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 11: But I think at the core, simply relocating doesn't erase 541 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 11: whatever fundamental issues or needs or demons or angels or 542 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 11: whatever in US. 543 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 3: I now know that depression came with me when I 544 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 3: moved to the US, even when I tried to hide 545 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 3: it to the night to pretend it didn't exist. And 546 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 3: I am terrified now that depression will chase me back 547 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 3: to Spain in full force if I moved back, right, 548 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 3: I mean, And my fear is that nothing will get 549 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,799 Speaker 3: rid of those demons. So on one hand, I have 550 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 3: this like this constant need to make decisions to be happier. 551 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,720 Speaker 3: On the at the hand, I have this constant fear 552 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 3: that no matter what I do, I will never be happy. 553 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,720 Speaker 1: What do you think it means to be happy? 554 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:16,439 Speaker 3: For me? Being happy means to not suffer basically. I mean, 555 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 3: if I were able to just go through my days 556 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 3: without suffering, then I would call that happiness. Sometimes I 557 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 3: forget that I'm depressed. I take my medications every day 558 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 3: as if I was taking vitamins. I pretend that I'm 559 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 3: handling things perfectly. The depression is not influencing every single 560 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 3: day of my life. And every day when I get up, 561 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 3: I check on myself for a minute to see where 562 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 3: my mind is. Am I going to be able to 563 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 3: cruise through this morning? Where is it going to be 564 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 3: a battle? I've wondered many times in the process of migration, 565 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 3: the process of aout routing yourself, developing a different personality 566 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 3: in a different language, may be the worst possible combination 567 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 3: for people who suffer from depression. Migrating just like depression, 568 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 3: it's not a single event. Happens every day when you 569 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,399 Speaker 3: get up. Happens every time you meet someone and they 570 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 3: notice your accent. Every occasion someone makes an old cultural 571 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 3: reference and you don't get it. It happens every time 572 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 3: something important happens back at home, and you're not there 573 00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 3: for that. The birthday, the death, celebration, the sickness, good news, 574 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 3: bad news, no news, just life, and you're not there 575 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 3: for any of it. And over the years, my depression 576 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 3: and my process of migration have intertwined in a way 577 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 3: that now I no longer can tell them apart. 578 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 2: Coming up on Latino US say Limbo continues, stay with us, 579 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 2: don't stay why? Yes, Hey, we're back. We've been listening 580 00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 2: to Limbo. Producer Ma Cis is back now to pick 581 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 2: up the story from here. 582 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 3: The pandemic coming in Brooklyn in twenty twenty, I had 583 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 3: a plane ticket to go back to Spain around Easter, 584 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 3: and I remember telling Maria in February, I don't know, 585 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,879 Speaker 3: this COVID thing is not looking good. I worked from 586 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 3: home during those months, and I mostly did okay, keeping 587 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 3: myself busy dodging sans one day at a time. In 588 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 3: early April, my mother told me that the private nursery 589 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 3: home where my father leaved was being taken over by 590 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 3: the public health system. A few days later, she called 591 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 3: me to let me know that my father had tested positive. 592 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 3: We left it off. My father had survived a devastating stroke, 593 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 3: decades of living under the risk of dying from another 594 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 3: stroke any day, COVID could do nothing to him. I 595 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 3: have never liked to talk about my father. I was 596 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,240 Speaker 3: twelve when he had this stroke. I only have scattered 597 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 3: memories from that time, but I was never able to 598 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 3: bury the image of him trying to smile at me 599 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 3: when I walked to the hospital room days after. My sister, Patrice, 600 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 3: was two years older than me. 601 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 13: I don't remember him much. 602 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 9: I just remember the. 603 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 13: Shock of seeing him like that. I think my mom said, 604 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 13: you're going to recover. She talked to him in a 605 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 13: very tender way, and she said, you're going to recover, 606 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 13: aren't you. 607 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 3: He did not recover. He became disabled, felt hard to 608 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 3: get better, and he was relentless the way he had 609 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,439 Speaker 3: worked relendlessly all his life, but ultimately he never got 610 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 3: much better. PATRICEA and I had never thought about this 611 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 3: until this past Christmas day. 612 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,360 Speaker 13: I felt you separated from I don't know if the 613 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 13: family or me, but I remember before that we were 614 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 13: relatively united, you and I as children, and I don't 615 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 13: know that was a turning point kind of afterwards, interpret 616 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 13: that it was too hard for you, so you kind 617 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 13: of got away from the whole family. I'm part of 618 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,760 Speaker 13: the family, was me. But I also felt bad because 619 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 13: I was a child, so I felt I was left alone. 620 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,799 Speaker 3: As I went into my teenage years. I wasn't just 621 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 3: far away from my family. I was also having fights 622 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 3: with them all the time. My father needed a lot 623 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 3: of care and I didn't help it. All failed my 624 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 3: sister and my. 625 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 13: Mother, and I was very very clear of the fact 626 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 13: that I was talk about him as I a Negro. 627 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:37,959 Speaker 3: The trace caused him and I will hear a Negro 628 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 3: a black hole of energy and care. Even when she 629 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 3: took him on big trips to Russia, to New York 630 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 3: just to please him. He could not be grateful. 631 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 13: I went there saying, this is just for him, so 632 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,359 Speaker 13: I'm gonna do whatever he wants. And it was very 633 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 13: obvious that he couldn't be good. That was said, did 634 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 13: you want to do A or B? And he would 635 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 13: say B and then he will just be angry at 636 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 13: me because with the bid and shouting at me, and 637 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,879 Speaker 13: in that trip it was for me. It was very 638 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 13: obvious that was something I had been seeing all along 639 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 13: my life. It was toxic in some way, but in 640 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 13: that tree that was obvious. 641 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 3: I barely remember anything about my father before he had 642 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 3: the stroke. My mother always tells me that I was 643 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 3: really close to him, that I would go everywhere with 644 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 3: my father. But I've wondered many times if he ever 645 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 3: had the capacity to enjoy life. He was all fashioned, 646 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 3: obsessed with work and productivity. Everything he did had to 647 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 3: have a purpose. Even dancin Sevigina's was a project for him. 648 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 3: My mother told me once about a summer when he 649 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,320 Speaker 3: got to the family's house near the beach for alarm vacation. 650 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 3: He sat on the stairs and said something like, and 651 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 3: what am I going to do here? With all this time? 652 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,760 Speaker 3: He would go along by rides and I will come along. 653 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,959 Speaker 3: You buy lots of sardines and grilled them a home. 654 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 3: I didn't like sardines back then. I love them now. 655 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 3: But my relationship with him after the stroke could not 656 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:17,319 Speaker 3: have been worse. I thought he was mean and grateful, controlling. 657 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,160 Speaker 13: Yeah, I remember you couldn't look at him at the 658 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 13: face when we were having lunch as teenagers, very young 659 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 13: here in this table. It was always tense when we 660 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,279 Speaker 13: were together. But I remember specifically, you don't do like this. 661 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 13: You're looking at the table, and I've interpreted that. I 662 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,760 Speaker 13: don't know if you couldn't just accept that he had gone, 663 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 13: that you felt abandoned in some way by him. 664 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,439 Speaker 3: So, you know, the one thing that I've talked about 665 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 3: in therapy many times. But you know, I don't know 666 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:01,279 Speaker 3: if there's any conclusion but the fact that for all 667 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 3: extents and purposes, you know that died basically when he 668 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 3: got sick. My father wasn't much older than I am 669 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 3: now when he had the stroke. I cannot imagine what 670 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 3: it was like for him and my mother, and for me. 671 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 3: I simply never came to terms with what happened. The 672 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 3: father who took me everywhere, became forever disconnected from this 673 00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,799 Speaker 3: other person who had never learned to love. Those are 674 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 3: the years when I started going to the US during 675 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:36,200 Speaker 3: the summer. The United States became escape. In Spain, I 676 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 3: found refuge in my friends. They became my lifeline. 677 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,720 Speaker 13: It was also obvious that you were a different person 678 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 13: when they were with your friends, if you had anaesthesia 679 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,440 Speaker 13: when you were at home. But then you will see 680 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 13: I would see yourself with your friends, and you were 681 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,720 Speaker 13: totally different, and you were very loved. 682 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, I think that I became very cold 683 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 3: with the family and also unfair probably, and with that, 684 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 3: I don't think that I was very unforgiving with him. 685 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 3: I've never known how much of my father's toxic behavior 686 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 3: was there before and how much came after his stroke. 687 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 3: My mother and sister explained it in a number of ways, 688 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 3: but I didn't understand it, or didn't want to understand it. 689 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,200 Speaker 3: So I moved away emotionally and physically, leaving the burden 690 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 3: of caring for my father to them. It was selfish 691 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 3: of me, Like many of the decisions I make, I've 692 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,759 Speaker 3: been running away from the legacy of my father all 693 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 3: my life. My constant need to accomplish things in my 694 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 3: life in the US to one day earned the right 695 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 3: to go back. It's pretty clear to me now where 696 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 3: it comes from, but I don't even know what exactly 697 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 3: I'm trying to accomplish anymore and for what purpose. The 698 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 3: further I get, the more I loose. The notion of 699 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 3: success becomes, and the opposite of success is failure. On 700 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,560 Speaker 3: April ninth, twenty twenty, my mother called me to give 701 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,439 Speaker 3: me the news my father died of COVID three days 702 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:21,839 Speaker 3: after testing positive alone in his nursery home in Seville. 703 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 3: I cried on the phone, took the rest of the 704 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,720 Speaker 3: day off, went back to work the next morning. After all, 705 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,799 Speaker 3: suffering for a reason it's much teasery than suffering for 706 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:48,720 Speaker 3: no reason. As the years went by, I changed jobs 707 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 3: as part of this accomplishment strategy of mine, as it 708 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 3: wasn't already problematic. The only problem is that the burden 709 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,399 Speaker 3: fell in my relationship with Maria. I had less less 710 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,239 Speaker 3: time for her, and Maria warned me more than a 711 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 3: few times, this is not going to work, Miguel, and 712 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 3: it didn't really, but we persevered, mostly thanks to her patience, 713 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,480 Speaker 3: and then I got an offer for a great job 714 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,320 Speaker 3: in d C, an offer I couldn't turn down. Maria 715 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 3: did not take it. Well, what do you mean by. 716 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:34,120 Speaker 5: Well? The topic I'm talking about the subject of what's 717 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 5: your plan? What is your life lay? What do you 718 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 5: plan to do? 719 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,440 Speaker 3: This was recorded in October twenty twenty one, where Maria 720 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,239 Speaker 3: visited me for a week in DC. The day she 721 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,040 Speaker 3: was flying back, we sat down on the sofa with 722 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,799 Speaker 3: a warm sung coming through the windows to talk better. 723 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:58,839 Speaker 10: Okay, Clark and then the Latancia. 724 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 5: And it is very difficult after ten years in the 725 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 5: distance to have projects in common and suddenly once again 726 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 5: take it all to pieces and have to rebuild it 727 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:15,239 Speaker 5: in some other way. 728 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:15,799 Speaker 4: Yeah. 729 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,799 Speaker 5: And also this is something I have already told you 730 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 5: that I think they're going to give me the Nobel 731 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:31,280 Speaker 5: price for patience because my decisions, my preferences, my personal growth, 732 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 5: vital and professional growth, they are never taking into consideration here, I. 733 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 3: Feel, I mean, yeah, that's true, but I feel that 734 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:46,759 Speaker 3: I do have a huge amount of respect for your 735 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 3: I mean, something that people ask me all the time 736 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:50,919 Speaker 3: is you know, so is she going to come here? 737 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,360 Speaker 3: You know? And I always think that, you know, for me, 738 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,640 Speaker 3: it's always I think that I have a lot of 739 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:07,640 Speaker 3: respect for your life there, your job, family, friends, and 740 00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 3: I've always feel that asking you to come here will 741 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:16,160 Speaker 3: be a huge sacrifice. So in a kind of in 742 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,360 Speaker 3: a twisted way, I am, I am taking it into consideration. 743 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,400 Speaker 5: But again, it is a consideration that you're having for 744 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:31,080 Speaker 5: me in which you're not taking into account what I think, 745 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,880 Speaker 5: because this is an old conversation. 746 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,279 Speaker 1: You know that, and you have never asked me. 747 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:45,520 Speaker 5: To come live with you directly. Is this a project 748 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,920 Speaker 5: of yours in which we're going to see how long 749 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:52,120 Speaker 5: I can last by your side? And what will I 750 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 5: feel like working, just working for you and working and 751 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,120 Speaker 5: wait and for me? Is that what you want as 752 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:04,000 Speaker 5: long I get it too? 753 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:06,399 Speaker 12: And I don't think so. 754 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:08,640 Speaker 3: I don't think so. I mean, I'm kind of like 755 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:14,040 Speaker 3: there's great irony to the way I approach life in general, 756 00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:22,000 Speaker 3: which is I've always, since I was very young, I've 757 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,440 Speaker 3: been obsessed with being ahead of life, basically being ahead 758 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,319 Speaker 3: of the kind of things that you will know ten 759 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:34,080 Speaker 3: years from now, twenty years from now, so that you 760 00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 3: can make the right decisions earlier in life. And so 761 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,560 Speaker 3: the irony is that that has kind of turned into 762 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:46,960 Speaker 3: this eternal chase in the process. Life is going by basically, 763 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:50,240 Speaker 3: and I think that's. 764 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:55,080 Speaker 12: What makes me sad about the past, that I feel 765 00:50:55,080 --> 00:51:10,840 Speaker 12: like I've just been running a lot. 766 00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:06,360 Speaker 5: Right, But my darling, maybe you have the opportunity to 767 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,000 Speaker 5: stuff running and to just be. That is why I 768 00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,160 Speaker 5: have come to visit to be with you, not to 769 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,680 Speaker 5: do many things or eating many places or see the capital. 770 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,880 Speaker 5: Many times I have gone to be with you and 771 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 5: spend time with and then, which is the only thing 772 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,959 Speaker 5: I have decided try to spend time with you when 773 00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:42,640 Speaker 5: I've had the chance, when you have allowed me to. 774 00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,960 Speaker 3: Hearing this broke my heart. It breaks my heart every 775 00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,520 Speaker 3: single time I hear it. I've wondered many times what 776 00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:55,319 Speaker 3: kind of person I am if I am capable of 777 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,160 Speaker 3: hurting and disappointing people I love. I've made some mistakes 778 00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:04,360 Speaker 3: in my life, sometimes mistakes to rectify previous mistakes have 779 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,759 Speaker 3: dragged Maria in the process and desperately hoping that those 780 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:13,719 Speaker 3: mistakes somehow amounts to the right final outcome, to one 781 00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:24,200 Speaker 3: correct final decision. But maybe lately things are beginning to change. Recently, 782 00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,959 Speaker 3: a friend of mine sent me a message. She's also 783 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,160 Speaker 3: an immigrant to the US. She also struggles with depression. 784 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,200 Speaker 3: She was holding back tears while talking to me about 785 00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,239 Speaker 3: the same things I've been struggling with. Where is our 786 00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,440 Speaker 3: place in the world? Where are we putting ourselves through 787 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,919 Speaker 3: all the suffering, going back and forth? And the only 788 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,120 Speaker 3: advice that I could give her is try to decide 789 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,560 Speaker 3: what you want to be in the future. And even 790 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,319 Speaker 3: if you don't know when that will happen, even if 791 00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,480 Speaker 3: you continue to wonder the world version of yourself is 792 00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,520 Speaker 3: more real, at least you'll know that you made a decision. 793 00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 3: And at that moment I realized that I have made a. 794 00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:12,839 Speaker 1: Decision, and we fair. 795 00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:22,600 Speaker 3: The tree. You know, I bought an old house in 796 00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:24,680 Speaker 3: Seville to tear it down and build a beautiful home 797 00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,840 Speaker 3: where we can leave and be happy together. This past 798 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,120 Speaker 3: Valentine's Day, I sent flowers to Maria's job, not the 799 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,879 Speaker 3: kind of thing I've ever done. I also asked her 800 00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 3: to marry me on her birthday while getting lunch with 801 00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,399 Speaker 3: some good friends in Seville and the sun. What else 802 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:41,200 Speaker 3: could I ask for? 803 00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:41,720 Speaker 1: Better? 804 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,239 Speaker 3: Marconfitos Multiple recently we visited the old house to talk 805 00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,480 Speaker 3: about what the new house wild look like when it's built. 806 00:53:49,680 --> 00:54:04,919 Speaker 10: Lassie and the plan Valconcito Grilli, I'm. 807 00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:06,719 Speaker 3: Not surprise, is skeptical when I tell her that I 808 00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:08,520 Speaker 3: will come back to Spain for good when the house 809 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:12,360 Speaker 3: is finished. My time is sticking away, but I finally 810 00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,120 Speaker 3: know where my place in the world is. And even 811 00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 3: though I don't have a set date or one way 812 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:20,560 Speaker 3: plane ticket, I know I will come back to Spain 813 00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:24,880 Speaker 3: to live with Maria, to finally rest, to even be 814 00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,560 Speaker 3: happy to leave for the things that matter. 815 00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,680 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Meel Macias and edited by 816 00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:02,520 Speaker 2: Sophia Plisa Carr with help from Marta Martinez and Andrea Lopez Grusado. 817 00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:07,440 Speaker 2: It was mixed by Stephanie Lebau and Julia Caruso. The 818 00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:12,560 Speaker 2: Latino USA team includes Daisy Gondreras, Mike Sargent, Julieta Martinelli, 819 00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:18,200 Speaker 2: Victoria Strada, Rinaldo, Leanos Junior Alejandra sa Rassad, Patricia Sulvaran 820 00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:22,160 Speaker 2: and Julia Rocha, with help from Raoul Berez. Our editorial 821 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:26,440 Speaker 2: director is Julio Ricardo Varela. Our associate engineers at gabriel 822 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:30,640 Speaker 2: A Bayez and jj Carubin. Our marketing manager is Luis Luna. 823 00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,600 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Yors for the music for this episode 824 00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,200 Speaker 2: and thanks also to adrian A. Tapia. 825 00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:38,560 Speaker 1: Our theme music was. 826 00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,040 Speaker 2: Composed by Sanie Robinos, I'm your host and executive producer 827 00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:45,400 Speaker 2: Maria no Posa. Join us again on our next episode, 828 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:50,840 Speaker 2: and in the meantime, remember not yes Uda t jao Ai. 829 00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,160 Speaker 14: Funding for Latino USA is coverage of a culture of 830 00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,799 Speaker 14: health is made possible in part by a grant from 831 00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:02,560 Speaker 14: the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Latino USA is made possible 832 00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:07,520 Speaker 14: in part by the Libra Foundation and the John D. 833 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:09,560 Speaker 14: And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation. 834 00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,440 Speaker 15: What did you do today? I went, you know, I 835 00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,160 Speaker 15: went here, I went there. I went to Brooklyn, I 836 00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,759 Speaker 15: went to Chinatown, I went to Harlem, right, And then 837 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:23,839 Speaker 15: you said and then it was like, I said, well, 838 00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,480 Speaker 15: there goes your four dollars a day budget, and he 839 00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,520 Speaker 15: said no. I walked the whole things