WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 35 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.400 you know. This is a compiletion episode. So every episode 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.119 there's gonna be nothing new here for you. But you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:27.520 can make your own decisions. If I know one thing 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:31.120 about diseases, it's that their home bodies. Now, it's fine, 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:33.680 we make it. They just want to netflix and chill. 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:38.000 You just line up the entire population of the US 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:40.320 in a line across the US. We shoot any deer 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:42.680 that tries across the line. I think we should do 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.640 the reverse and have deer shoot people who tried across 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:47.519 the line. It's the only thing that can protect us 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:51.000 from the dangerous east. No, no, no, that look look well, 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:52.680 I guess it worse in east and in the west. 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:56.000 We have to maintain the right to arm bears. Yeah, 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.120 I'm I'm of the opinion, given how dry it is 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:01.960 in New Mexico, that we need to sink every part 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.000 of the country east of New Mexico to give it 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:07.320 a coast that can that can keep it moist. I 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:08.720 wonder how much of this is going to get in 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.640 the final cut. Well, if you live east of New Mexico, 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.679 welcome to the ocean. That's my suggestion. Um, speaking of 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.839 people east of New Mexico, this is it could happen 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.640 here a podcast where some of the listeners are east 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:27.240 of New Mexico, even though I don't recommend that. Um, 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:31.319 I'm Robert Evans. On the call with me is Christopher Wong, 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.840 Garrison Davis, Sharene Lonnie Units, and then our producers Sophie. 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:40.360 Today we're talking about terrorism. Yeah, we do it in 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:44.679 a little NPR voice. So uh. Recently, the same week 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:47.880 as the Supreme Court leaked a document stating that they 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:50.880 would be taking out Roe v. Wade and ushering in 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:55.080 an era of theocratic fascism in a number of states. Uh, 0:01:55.240 --> 0:02:00.639 an individual or individuals unknown in Wisconsin attacked Anti Choice 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.520 headquarters building with a Molotov cocktail and spray painted graffiti 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.040 on the side saying if abortion isn't safe, then you 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.200 aren't either. That same group or individuals claiming to be 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.480 from them, later reached out to me through an intermediary 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:17.600 and sent a manifesto of sorts about the attack, promising 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:23.240 follow up attacks within thirty days. But they wrote, but 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.760 they wrote in cursive, So who can say, Who can 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.600 say if this actually happened. So we'll talk first. I'm 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.160 gonna just go over first what what happened in like 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:35.640 factual terms, and then we'll talk about the discourse around it. 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:39.600 So basically, there's this attack on this UM anti choice 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:45.200 like advocacy organizations headquarters in fucking Wisconsin. UM it was 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.720 seemed to be a pretty good molotov and that, like Garrison, 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:51.840 you and I have watched a number of people failed 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:57.880 to properly utilize. I watched a few people get watched 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:00.840 one get ignited by him altop, I've seen a couple 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:05.400 of not cops get ignited by mollotsovs um they're they're 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.400 they're not like people can suck them up easily. Whoever 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.080 did this did not suck them up. It was seemed 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.640 to be at the moment. No one has been arrested. 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.240 Now it's possible by the time this drops, Wisconsin police 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:19.640 will be like, oh no, there was totally surveillance footage 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.200 and they fucked up and we just caught them, UM, 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:24.080 But at the moment, it doesn't look like that's the case. 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.200 So it looks like this is somebody who carried out 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.399 or some buddies, because it's entirely possible is multiple people, 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:34.080 but carried out UM a very effective like action that 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:39.320 did material damage to UM, part of kind of the 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:44.320 physical infrastructure of the anti choice movement UM and ended 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.200 without anyone getting caught. So that's the fact of the 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:53.640 actual attack itself. UM. A person who claiming to be 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:57.560 affiliated with the individuals or group who did this reached 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:01.680 out to a source of mine who I'm keeping anonymous, 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:03.680 but somebody who I've known for a while with a 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.600 very good track record of being accurate, and said, hey, 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:11.680 these individual slash individuals have a communic A they would 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.880 like put out UM. And I was sent on a 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:16.840 non files link, which is a link. If you view 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.320 it in a normal browser you'll get some fucked up ship. 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:21.560 Don't put it in a normal browser. I specified it's 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.000 like you're supposed to. If you put it in tour, 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.560 it will download a text file right UM. And the 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:29.360 text file is the communic A. So using the Tour 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.760 browser for that link, you can get a text file 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.000 in which they lay out number one. They named themselves UM, 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.640 and the name they've chosen for their group is Jane's Revenge, 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.280 which is a reference to the Jaine Collective UM, which 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:46.520 was a pro choice group in the late sixties early 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:51.599 seventies that UM provided women with access to contraception and 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:55.600 abortion illegally. A bunch of them went to jail. Uh, 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:57.480 they were pardoned after Roe v. Wade. If I'm not 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.240 mistaken or at least other one more about it, send 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:06.320 the market the k click. Yeah, yeah, very well timed. UM. 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.320 So they're calling themselves Jamee's Revenge, and they basically said, hey, 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:12.240 if you are an organization in the anti choice movement, 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.400 you have thirty days to close down your operations otherwise 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.520 there will be follow up attacks. They specifically noted the 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:20.680 long and it's at this point like a forty years 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.760 long history of terrorist attacks from the anti choice movement, 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:27.720 many of which have assassinated doctors, something like sixteen people 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.760 have been killed, UM, dozens of bombs and bombing attempts, 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.520 something like a hundred acid attacks. So they made a 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:36.520 note of all that and said that like, basically we 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:40.440 will be UM, we will be responding in kind and 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:45.960 UH attacks after this initial attack will be correspondingly more severe. UM. 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.360 They also claim to have a pretty wide geographic reach, 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:52.040 said they had folks in a number of cities, UM, 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.039 and that yeah, there's going to be follow up attacks UM, 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.359 and they're prepared to defend their bodily autonomy with violence. 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.040 So that's that's the gist of what was claimed in 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:04.320 the communic a UM. In terms of what I think 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:08.760 about its legitimacy, UM, I don't have any reason to 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:14.960 believe they're not representing the individual or individuals who carried 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.080 out that attack in Wisconsin, based on the timing of 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.279 when the communic was made, and based on the fact 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.840 that the communicate is pretty consistent with what we saw 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.400 from the actual action. Right. So, among other things that 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:28.520 you can tell from the physical action that was taken 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:32.640 is that, UM, the individual or individuals who did this 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:36.120 were pretty well organized. They carried out a competent action, 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:38.919 and they thought there was a value in very clear 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:42.320 messaging because there's clear messaging surrounding the attack. The communicate 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.080 is very clear messaging. It does not sound like a 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.920 right winger writing up a fake communicate. It's very UM. 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.960 It takes great pains to both connect itself to history, 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.799 to frame its violence within the context of the violence 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:00.920 perpetuated by the anti choice movement for decades UM, and 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:04.920 just in general, it's the communication seems consistent with the 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:08.200 action that we saw in Wisconsin. Now cannot say, we 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:12.040 cannot say, I cannot say to a statement of certainty 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.880 whether or not it's legitimate. One helpful thing they did 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.960 is place state that there would be another more attacks 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.720 in thirty days, So we're kind of waiting. If thirty 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.080 days pass and there's never any kind of follow up 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.960 attacks by this group, then we can probably assume that 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:30.880 this was either somebody bullshitting or that the heat got 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.320 to too much for them and they decided not to 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:36.600 carry out follow up attacks. UM. But we're all kind 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.040 of in this holding pattern now to see what happens. 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:43.560 My personal speculation is that UM, they were exaggerating a 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.520 number of things. UM. I think that the their claims 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:48.680 about having members in a number of states in a 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.240 capacity to strike in a number of states was more 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:56.040 aspirational than literal UM. In that I suspect the people 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:00.400 behind this attack, in this communicate are hoping that by 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:04.320 UM carrying out attacks. They can inspire other people to 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.480 carry out attacks and credit it to the same organization, right, 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.680 which is not an uncommon tactic in the history of terrorism. 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.800 And again, this is terrorism. Like that doesn't mean I 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:16.880 don't think, uh, they have a point or that it's 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.640 like fundamentally unjust. Terrorism is just like a set of 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.400 tactics that different groups can use, and it can be 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.080 ethical or unethical depending on how you you choose to 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.480 do that. You can attack purely infrastructure, UM in a 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.400 terrorist manner, and I don't think that's necessarily unethical. And 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:34.800 you can also attack civilians, UM in a terrorist manner, 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:36.920 and I think that is unethical. At this moment, these 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.600 people have not done anything I view as inherently unethical. 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.679 They burned a building, UM, which I think is often 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.240 justified and is in this case justified. So that's that's 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.080 my opinion on the matter. Let's open it up on 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:50.000 the point you kind of closed with. I mean, yeah, 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.600 they showed effective direct action. They did a physical thing. 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:54.719 Malta's are not the best way to do like to 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.120 like arsenal building, but they are good for a very 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.760 quick attack. Um. It caused this whole media thing, right, 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:02.200 there's a lot a lot of people talking about it, 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.400 then releasing the communicate through someone who can give it 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:09.680 a lot of visibility. Uh, and then by by doing 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.680 it with this with this name Jane's revenge and saying 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:14.600 in thirty days there will be more attacks in different 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:18.959 cities the messages that, Yeah, like you can. One way 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:20.600 to look at this is if if they don't have 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.360 tons of like you know, members are allies that they 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:26.360 know across different cities. Is that and anyone can do this, 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.120 Like anyone can do this and call themselves by that 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:31.720 name and be a part of this larger thing like 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.400 it's you if you if you spread it around, then 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.000 that it can become like this, this thing that anyone 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.400 can gloam onto. It doesn't need to be you don't 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:41.200 need to be a part of a member of a 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.640 specific group. You can just do stuff and release communicates 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:49.320 safely and add add on to the to the to 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:54.240 the specter. Yeah. Um, it's not hard to set up 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:56.320 like a text drop in the same manner that did 0:09:56.360 --> 0:10:01.559 they did. It is relatively secure. Like there's no perfect 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.240 if you are committing terrorism, there is no perfect manner 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.880 to issue a statement. Um, but of the different things 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.680 they could have chosen. This is relatively secure, especially doing 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:12.880 it through an intermediary. I haven't had direct contact with 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.840 these people, but UM, we should probably note that there's 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:20.000 a huge discourse that started before the communic A came 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:25.400 out arguing that this is like a false flag attack. Yeah, 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:30.439 that's yes, that in a long line of calling a 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:34.520 pretty pretty well planned out direct action. When it actually happens, 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.880 people will defalse to calling it an OP. We're calling 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.880 it a false flag from a very people like that. 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:43.880 There's there's like there's like libs who say, oh, this 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:46.480 is a stage thing to make our movement look bad. 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.360 There's tank kys who think it's like the CIA planning something. 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:52.880 There's random other folks who are like, hey, I don't 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:54.840 know if it's legit. I think maybe it's like some 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:59.439 it's a lot of people get very various justifications for 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:05.040 calling pretty effective acts of direct action UM and questioning 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:09.080 questioning their legitimacy. I think some of this comes from 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:12.440 because there's obviously there's the bad faith elements of this UM, 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.000 but I think the good faith folks who questioned it, 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.680 there's a lot of learned helplessness there. This idea that 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:23.960 because somebody did carry out a pretty successful direct action 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.760 attack that kind of did what its intention was, then 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.760 it has to have been the FBI or whoever, right, 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:34.520 because obviously the left could never have pulled off something 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.800 as as cunning as throwing a single molotov at a 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:41.480 building and spray painting the side of it, you know. Um, 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.200 and I do think that that's a problem. Whether or 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:47.640 not you think the solution to issues like the right 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.840 wing attack on reproductive healthcare come from direct action, the 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.280 fact that folks almost can't conceive of effective action being 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:57.839 taken by the left without the FEDS being involved is 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.400 really an issue. Yeah, this was a huge thing during 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:04.679 one of the things that we saw there. There were 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.000 so many just weird conspiracy theories, and then the everything 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:11.600 that happened very quickly was people became convinced almost immediately 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:14.200 that anyone doing anything was it was a federal infiltrator. 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.160 And you've got people, you got crowds turning people over 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.440 to police. You got people on Twitter like trying to 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:25.000 track down, um, like who was throwing malltops and videos 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:26.160 and like one of the people they caught and they 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.520 turned over the police. It turned out had been had been. 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:30.240 The girlfriend is someone who got killed by the cops, 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.199 and so I mean this stuff, this stuff has has 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.080 The stuff has real world consequences. It has already like 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:40.760 sent people to jail, it has it has this normost 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:42.920 demobilizing effect of me. I don't remember people two people 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:49.480 remember the okay, the two two two big Okay, the 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:58.080 two big Twitter conspiracies were um bricks bricks and who yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.360 There's hoping that people like people would see a major 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.080 right next to a to a construction site, They'll be like, 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.240 how are all these pallets of bricks showing up this 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.439 there's like a construction site of block away. You're like, okay, 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.560 who's distributing the fireworks? How do these fireworks get here? 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:22.920 Never mind June. The history of like like the FBI, 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.680 some people will mistakenly like throw the CIA in there. 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:27.760 The CIA doesn't really tend to do like the domestic 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:31.040 facory um, they're international fay. But like, if you look 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:33.719 at the history of the FBI fucking with left wing 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.280 social movements, it's not by handing out brick palates. Yeah, 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:39.880 but that's not what they do. We have a lot 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.600 of documentation about what they do and it's not bricks. 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.080 And if there is some secret group who's maliciously giving 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.080 out bricks so people attack, throw them through windows, or 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:53.319 throw them at cop cars, like who cares? Like bricks 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.440 are getting throw a cop cars. It doesn't matter where 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:59.880 they come from. Like people are still choosing to do action. Yeah, 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:03.440 the best example of this is is the Russian Revolution n. No. Five. 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.840 The Russian Revolution of n. Five was started by a 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.400 guy who was a police agent. Like his whole thing 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:11.160 is he was he was he was working to create 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.040 like unions that could be controlled by the state, and 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:15.640 he marched a bunch of people into a square and 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:17.200 the police shot them. And that's how and that's how. 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.920 That's literally how the Russian Revolution started. Like it doesn't. 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:22.960 It doesn't like there's there's a there's a point, Okay, 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.200 they're they're like, there's two layers of this. One is 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.960 that like there there almost is never a conspiracy going 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.360 on into if the conspiracy is we want to push 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.440 people towards doing things. It almost it doesn't. There's a 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.600 point at which it stops mattering because a lot a 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:39.760 lot of people forget about acams rights. There when you're 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:44.480 talking about these types of things. Usually, the more simple 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.600 the answer, the more likely it is. The more the 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:51.600 less involved parties, the more likely the more likely it is. 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:56.440 So if there's a choice between rad people fucking up 0:14:56.480 --> 0:15:00.360 an anti choice headquarters versus a government conspiracy to do 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.360 false flag operations to make the antichos to make the 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.320 abortion movement look bad, like, one of those is much 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.560 more simple and much more likely. And it's people just 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.320 deciding to do stuff because guess what you can You 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.960 can actually do that. You don't need to allow these 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:18.520 these weird narratives to to like to justify your uncomfortableness 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.240 at like at forms of radical direct action, because it's 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.760 it's people use that false flag idea, so so they 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:28.520 don't need to actually engage with what direct action will mean. 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.720 And if it is someone's moral imperative to physically attack 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.360 like physical manifestations of these sources of oppression, yeah, I 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:38.400 think you're right on the money there. I think one 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.560 of the things that's most frustrating to me about this 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.240 is it kind of suggests that a sizeable chunk of 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.600 people who ostensibly consider themselves on the left are like 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:52.360 focusing their time not on doing anything and not on 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.840 taking any action to materially change the conditions. They're angry 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:00.680 at um, but are instead looking for reasons to disavow 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:02.920 other folks on the left, and that that's like the 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:06.320 primary which is if you again, if you like look 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:09.600 at what we know Herbert Herbert Hoover was saying about 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.360 the FBI's co Intel pro program was the goal of 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:15.360 co Intel pro right, That's what That's exactly what I 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:19.200 was thinking. I'm just like, I feel like this promotes 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:24.520 I don't know, a morality like race or like just 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.560 like competition, where the only thing it does is just 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.120 promote infighting. When you have this, like you're on your 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:38.000 morality horse. But I think if you actually support real change, 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:39.960 you have to come to terms with like you have 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.200 to do illegal things and like holding on too, like 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.200 these made up laws that someone made up about like 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:49.240 how to achieve change is useless. And there's i mean, 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:53.320 like dividing up a side that's supposed to be going 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:55.520 for the same thing. Like that's exactly yeah, it's just 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.200 it's missing the point and people don't really Yeah, if 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.560 you look at the right, you've got all these folks 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:07.000 who were like legal and and whatnot, Uh, proponents of 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:11.280 of ending reproductive health care access and any of the 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.680 folks who were doing repeated acts of terrorism. And the 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.199 folks who were on the legal side of things didn't 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:19.359 disavow those people. They were often affiliated with churches that 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:23.280 did shoot like auction off the possessions of like extremists 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:27.120 who had murdered doctors and ship like they were like 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:30.679 even the most they would do is just not directly 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.639 talk about those people. They didn't disavow them, they didn't 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.399 like attack it because they understood that a diversity of 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.080 tactics was going to be how they achieved their goals. 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.240 That it was a mix of pushing for these legal 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:45.639 changes and carrying out so many terroristic attacks that it 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:50.320 frightened people away from supporting UM abortion service providers and 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:54.520 other kind of reproductive healthcare service providers. UM difference between 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.000 the right and the left, though, Like Democratic Republicans are 0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:00.720 really good at uniting on this big picture, and I 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:04.960 feel like Democrats are not. I feel like they just uh, 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:08.000 I don't know, it's too there's too much in fighting, 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.520 and that's why it's always fractured. Part of it is 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:15.320 that on the Republican side, you have Republicans and you 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:17.800 have the far right who are also Republicans. And even 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:19.560 though a lot of folks on the far right bitch 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.080 about the centrists in their upboard, like the folks who 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.919 are closer to the center, they all get in line 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:27.960 for really radical stuff, Like the center of the Republican 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:32.800 Party always yields to the radicals, whereas Democrats do not 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:37.560 acknowledge leftists as having anything to do with with the 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.000 Democratic Party or democratic politics other than the yell at 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.640 them when they don't vote. Um. And on the other 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:44.320 hand of things, there's a lot of folks on the 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:49.400 left who hate liberals more than they hate fascists, you know. Um, 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.119 And it's it's I think one of those is a 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:54.320 bigger problem than the other. I think that the failure 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:58.440 of the democratic establishment to like deal with the left 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:02.240 at all, um, or make any kind of progress that 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:08.400 could be seen as as actually left. Actually yeah, but 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.600 but I think I think there's they're there. I think 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:12.760 there's structural reasons for that too, Which is okay, if 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.520 if you look at what is the basis of conservative alliance, Right, 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.720 if you're a conservative, you know, okay, if you're from 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:20.760 the sort of like moderate business wing, get the party 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:22.479 if you're from the fascist wing, get the party right, 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:25.520 you can have one judge who gives both of you 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:27.359 the things that you want right, because if you're if 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:29.440 you're like the Koke Brothers, the thing that you want 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:31.639 is the regulation. Right, you want to be able to 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:33.919 just like dump poison into the environments. If you're on, 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:35.840 if you're on, if you're an evangelical, the thing that 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.320 you want is uh, you know, to no one can 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:43.199 ever have an abortion again. And you know, if if 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:44.760 if you're like a fascist, I don't know, maybe you 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.959 want like we don't give food to immigrant children anymore, 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.239 so they start to death. And one judge can give 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:54.200 you all of those same things because the the sort 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:59.160 of the the class and social issues of the Republican 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:01.840 base can all be fused together without harboring each other. 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:04.240 But the problem with with with this with the Democratic 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.640 Party is that like the Democratic Party's basis is like 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:10.959 what's left of the Union movement, but then also like 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.840 a bunch of corporations and banks and like weapons manufacturers 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.200 and stuff, but then also like a bunch of angry 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.200 students and also like a bunch of people from different 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:21.879 minority groups, and all of these people like have different 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.040 interests and you know, in the Democratic Party, ultimately like 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:26.560 the thing, the thing that they care about is keeping 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.679 capitalism going. And you know if if they have to 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.640 like if that means that, yeah, I mean well okay, 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:35.119 if if if your things you want to keep capitalis 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:36.600 and going, like of course you're just gonna throw your 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:40.440 left wing out to the wolves, right like it. It 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:42.520 makes sense for them to do this because because the 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:45.600 part of their base that actually matters isn't like the 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:52.040 labor movement, it's like it's Goldman Sachs. I think that 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:53.840 one of the other things that that causes people to 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:58.159 have this like immediately anyhow someone does someone does. Like 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:02.119 people remember like when and Nancy Pelosi's driveway got graffiti, 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:07.960 like that was like that's never never, that's horrible. Don't 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:12.040 graffiti Nancy Pelosi's driveway. That's evil. Yeah, like it's an 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:16.920 isis you did nicest there? Yeah? Everyone lost their mind 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:18.800 and was like, oh, this is obviously a false flag, 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.040 and it's like what you know, But the reason they 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:23.320 do this is because they have they have like Democrat 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:26.719 optics brain were like I said, if anything being about politics, 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:28.639 every everything is just about optics. And optics and how 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:30.000 does it look? How does it look? How does it look? 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:34.320 Like the only people who care about this are like 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:37.720 weird pundits, but because because because everyone's so sort of 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:40.400 absorbed in like the Twitter media's fear, like they think 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:43.159 that like the actual general public cares about the things 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:44.920 that pundits care about because the only thing they're seeing 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.360 is pundits writing angry articles. But like nobody cared like 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:52.520 zero people, especially the graffiti thing, because man, people like 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:57.240 dissect how someone sprayed an anarchist a. It's like if 0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:59.920 you're not aware, like a big chunk of the discord, 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.680 are e it being a false flag or whatever? Was that? 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:10.440 The incursive? Yeah, and that they did. They did as 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.840 they did like um, the anarchy a inside the inside 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:17.440 the circle. Um. And it's wild because I mean, spray 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:20.920 painting what they said, like if if abortions aren't safe, 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:23.440 then you are either in cursive is a genius move. 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:25.879 It's great because if you're spray painted in some like 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.280 random punk fond that's easy to be ignored like, oh, 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:30.879 it's just people doing like whatever, people prey any stuff. 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:35.200 But doing it like methodically in cursive is is actually 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:37.359 a really good choice because you're like, oh, it's like 0:22:37.560 --> 0:22:40.439 we're dealing with adults. It's like like the type of 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:42.359 things that people will go through their minds when they 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.960 look at it is great. Um, and it's just a 0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:48.399 weird denial to assume that no one who takes radical 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:51.600 direct action whatever write in cursive. It's just it's like 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:54.280 the most the most brainworms thing. And it's also like 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:56.760 it's also very clear, like like okay, so I am 0:22:56.880 --> 0:22:59.040 very bad at spray painting, right, but like I have 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:03.199 I have used a spray paint can, and well, this 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:04.920 is an aged I was. I was, I was making 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:06.880 I was making banners for stuff, So this wasn't even 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:08.600 like this wasn't even cryings, but this is just like 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:14.439 regular spray painting. It's like that is hard, Like writing 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:16.879 that incursive and having it look that nice with the 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:20.280 spray pain can is like difficult, which you know, if 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:22.800 if you think about this about five seconds, this makes 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:24.480 it more likely that it's actually left just doing this 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:26.359 because it's like, what, okay, hold on, So the anti 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:30.360 abortion people have one person who's really really good at graffiti, 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:36.119 and this person that they've decided yeah, theist school and 0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:40.280 secret like learning. It's like it's nonsense, but it's like 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.800 people people just people want everything to sort of like 0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:45.040 like and I think this is the other angle of 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:48.520 this is that people think that like have this wild 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:52.120 overassessment of the capacity of the state. Yeah, and they 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:54.600 think that anytime something looks slightly weird, it's like, oh, 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:56.199 it must be the state. Like like one of the 0:23:56.200 --> 0:23:57.800 one of the things that happened with with the Brooklyn 0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:00.840 shooting tube was like you had all these people that 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:02.480 there's a tweet going around that was like, oh, like 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:06.960 the cameras just happened. All all the cameras, all the 0:24:07.000 --> 0:24:09.080 cameras in New York were working except the exact one 0:24:09.119 --> 0:24:11.600 that would have caught the shooter. And this is this 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:13.240 is like everyone circled around this and everyone was like, 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:14.800 oh my god, this is a false flag. And then 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:17.240 know it turned out that like the guy had literally 0:24:17.280 --> 0:24:19.880 called the police, but the police were so incompetent that 0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:23.439 like other people like saw him on the street and 0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:25.800 got to him before like the cops did. And and 0:24:25.840 --> 0:24:28.119 like the camera it turned out wasn't even like the 0:24:28.160 --> 0:24:30.800 camera that was out wasn't even the camera that like 0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:32.760 like they had him on camera. It was a different camera, 0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:37.240 but it was like everyone everyone just immediately has this 0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:40.880 like conspiracy brain thing where they see like one thing 0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:43.840 out of context that looks slightly weird and they go, 0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:45.679 oh my god. This whole thing is is is a 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:50.000 state like c a like depressing. It's so depressing because 0:24:50.000 --> 0:24:52.960 it's such it's so depowering your specific you're like it 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:55.199 ties into the learned helpless, this thing that Robert mentioned, 0:24:55.240 --> 0:24:59.000 like you're convincing yourself that we don't have power to 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:01.800 change things, that we cannot take any physical action to 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:07.199 change things. Um. And that's not great mentality to have 0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:09.800 if you want to improve the world or if you 0:25:09.840 --> 0:25:11.399 want to if you want to destroy the things that 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:14.880 harve you, Um, you do. You don't want to fall 0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:18.800 into that that specific like I don't have any power 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:23.119 mindset because you turns out you can do stuff. Things happened, 0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:26.760 you can. People threw a ball off and broke windows 0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:32.200 and cool people sometimes do cool things, yes, just like 0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:43.760 the people stuff. Yes. The Sophie Sophie Sophie, Sophie Sophie 0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:46.320 one of the things that's interesting to me, and it 0:25:46.760 --> 0:25:50.520 it might hold some lessons for folks thinking about radical 0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:54.159 direct action. And what gets attention and what doesn't. So 0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:58.320 obviously this attack has garnered a lot of national attention, 0:25:58.480 --> 0:26:01.000 right the fact that I think because there was both 0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:04.600 an attack and a message, there was another attack. And 0:26:04.680 --> 0:26:06.960 it's not a p that this had anything to do 0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:11.480 with the pro choice movement, UM, but I suspect it does. 0:26:11.560 --> 0:26:15.920 The Attorney General Virginia Jason Miarez UM, on the tenth 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:22.159 of May, there was a somewhat shot into his office, 0:26:22.359 --> 0:26:25.520 like a bullet was found in the office. UM. It 0:26:25.640 --> 0:26:28.120 was probably fired when no one was there. We don't 0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:30.119 really know more than that. It is unclear as to 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:31.960 whether or not this is involved with things. But three 0:26:32.080 --> 0:26:35.359 days before the shot was fired into his office, he 0:26:35.520 --> 0:26:39.560 had basically Catholic groups had been planning big masses to 0:26:39.640 --> 0:26:43.840 celebrate the leaked draft opinion, and protesters had been organizing 0:26:43.920 --> 0:26:46.960 to protest the Catholic masses, and he had threatened to 0:26:47.560 --> 0:26:51.760 charge people who protested masses. UM, because he believes the 0:26:51.840 --> 0:26:53.879 right to freedom of religion trump's the right of free speech. 0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:55.760 So it's kind of like a fucked up situation. People 0:26:55.800 --> 0:26:59.880 got angry at me ares UM, and it seems kind 0:27:00.080 --> 0:27:03.560 of noteworthy that someone shot into his office three days 0:27:03.600 --> 0:27:06.680 after this. I mean also, I mean there's been a 0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:09.480 lot of stuff like on on May eight, there was 0:27:09.720 --> 0:27:13.720 an attack on the organ Rights to Life building. Yes, yes, yes, 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:17.320 there was certainly appro choice. Yeah yeah, there was there, 0:27:17.480 --> 0:27:20.480 there was there was at least two multop cocktails throne 0:27:20.600 --> 0:27:24.159 and there was a break and inside. So it's like 0:27:25.480 --> 0:27:28.080 you can do things. You don't have no power like 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:30.840 you can physical you can interact with the politics in 0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:34.600 a physical way. Um, people do interact with politics in 0:27:34.640 --> 0:27:37.080 a physical way. Yeah. And and people people have this 0:27:37.160 --> 0:27:39.600 assumption that like this is going to be incredibly unpopular. 0:27:39.640 --> 0:27:41.720 And again I want to point out burning the third Precinct. 0:27:41.800 --> 0:27:44.040 How to higher approve of rating that both presidential candidates, 0:27:45.200 --> 0:27:48.159 which I mean I I again tend to advocate in 0:27:49.440 --> 0:27:51.840 we should elect the burning of the third Precinct in 0:27:51.880 --> 0:27:58.320 Minneapolis as president. Look every look, the way that works 0:27:58.480 --> 0:28:00.280 is the burning of the precinct takes off this and 0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:02.879 then every day you burn another precinct. So that's so 0:28:02.960 --> 0:28:05.200 that you can actually have a president. Well that is 0:28:05.280 --> 0:28:09.200 how you fill the cabinet. Yeah, there needs to yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:28:09.200 --> 0:28:10.879 you have to eat well, yeah, all all all the 0:28:10.920 --> 0:28:15.159 staff positions filled with the Health and the Health and 0:28:15.400 --> 0:28:18.840 Human Services Secretary will be the West Los Angeles Police 0:28:18.880 --> 0:28:21.480 station and so forth. Yes, I'm really excited to see 0:28:21.520 --> 0:28:23.840 which one gets picked for the Housing Secretary. I am 0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:28.560 just on my on my toes. Just's exciting, exciting. Democracy 0:28:28.640 --> 0:28:31.720 can be quite far. Electoralism has some has some really cool, 0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:35.399 really cool points. Yeah, hey, you you too could go 0:28:35.520 --> 0:28:37.760 in front of the National Labor Relations Board and the 0:28:37.880 --> 0:28:40.680 National Labor Relations Board is just seven? Is just seven? 0:28:40.760 --> 0:28:48.000 On fire police stations? Charred really win? So yeah, we 0:28:48.120 --> 0:28:49.960 just we just want we wanted to at least talk 0:28:49.960 --> 0:28:52.640 about this because if whenever a cool thing happens and 0:28:53.240 --> 0:28:56.320 a large swath of of of people who are ostensibly 0:28:56.440 --> 0:29:00.720 leftists or even or even anarchists default to calling anything 0:29:00.840 --> 0:29:05.720 cool a false flag or notp it's like, well, like 0:29:06.000 --> 0:29:07.440 what do you want? Like you want people just to 0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:09.720 stay at home all the time and not do anything? Like, 0:29:10.040 --> 0:29:13.440 what's what's the end goal here? If you're calling everything 0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:17.120 that happens enough. Yeah, and also just like if you're 0:29:17.160 --> 0:29:21.080 going to if you're worried about ops and thinking of 0:29:21.200 --> 0:29:24.920 suggesting that something might be what is your line? Is 0:29:24.960 --> 0:29:28.080 it just that people broke a law? Are you saying 0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:30.800 that if people do illegal things, that's always like a 0:29:30.880 --> 0:29:35.240 government op because that doesn't seem like yourself an anarchist, 0:29:35.760 --> 0:29:38.680 doesn't seem like a good strategy. Yeah, especially when it 0:29:38.720 --> 0:29:40.920 comes to reproductive rights, like you're gonna have to do 0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:44.320 illegal things, if people are gonna have to break exactly 0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:49.560 pick and choose. I'm a hundred percent convinced that like 0:29:49.640 --> 0:29:51.680 all of these people, if they'd seen John Brown, would 0:29:51.720 --> 0:29:54.120 have been completely convinced the John Brown. Oh, John Brown 0:29:54.280 --> 0:29:59.400 was for sure the FBI, he founded it, the original 0:29:59.560 --> 0:30:05.200 op John Brown. I think that there's an aspect there 0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:08.720 of also like okay, if if if you're on Twitter 0:30:09.080 --> 0:30:13.480 right mostly or not doing politics, and the thing that 0:30:13.520 --> 0:30:15.680 you're actually doing on Twitter is trying to feel smarter 0:30:15.800 --> 0:30:18.120 for everyone else, and if you're the person that's like, 0:30:18.160 --> 0:30:20.719 oh hey, look all these people believe that this thing 0:30:21.000 --> 0:30:25.680 wasn't an op or like oh I A yeah, it's 0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:27.480 like it's like, yeah, okay, you you very quickly like 0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:30.520 spiral into just like every all all the all the 0:30:30.600 --> 0:30:36.600 sheeople to smart fight this suspicious like it's it's like 0:30:36.680 --> 0:30:40.400 it's it's just a bad like looking at an element 0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:43.400 of event and going oh, this is weird, but in 0:30:43.480 --> 0:30:46.040 a way that is oh hauh, isn't this weird? It 0:30:46.120 --> 0:30:48.240 must be the government, Like that's that's just a bad 0:30:48.320 --> 0:30:51.000 way of thinking. Like in in the mirror hours, in 0:30:51.080 --> 0:30:55.760 the mirror minutes after anonymous people broke into the Portland 0:30:55.760 --> 0:30:59.920 Police Association headquarters back in I think was July, just 0:31:00.320 --> 0:31:03.080 mirror hours, people were calling it a false flag that 0:31:03.160 --> 0:31:09.960 the police were dressed to the black block the people 0:31:09.960 --> 0:31:12.520 and started protesting. The Feds. Yes, they alleged that this 0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:16.080 was like I guess the FBI or Homeland Security trying 0:31:16.120 --> 0:31:19.360 to get protesters angry at the cops again, which is 0:31:19.680 --> 0:31:24.280 I mean, for one thing, if actually happened, if there 0:31:24.320 --> 0:31:26.239 were to be a point where the left wing had 0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:30.080 the FBI fighting or the FBI or Homeland Security whatever 0:31:30.240 --> 0:31:33.720 fighting with local police over who was getting protested, that's 0:31:33.720 --> 0:31:37.160 a win. That's a that's a big, solid capital dub 0:31:37.560 --> 0:31:41.320 for the But people like the FBI is a block 0:31:41.560 --> 0:31:44.880 breaking into the police union building and trying to light 0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:48.200 it on fire, you're like, well, doing doing less physical, 0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:50.880 let's be honest, doing less damage to that police union 0:31:50.920 --> 0:31:53.400 building that I have seen my friends do when attempting 0:31:53.480 --> 0:31:57.200 to deep fry French Fries. Like I have watched people 0:31:57.240 --> 0:31:59.760 do more damage to their living rooms than that protested. 0:31:59.840 --> 0:32:02.200 The people's astonishing because like there was so many people 0:32:02.240 --> 0:32:04.000 at that action, and so many, so many people using 0:32:04.080 --> 0:32:08.480 the moment to to actually gain like physical political power 0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:12.240 for a brief a brief moment um, and to take 0:32:12.280 --> 0:32:16.440 that away from them is just as a bizarre impulse. 0:32:16.720 --> 0:32:19.360 And I would like to see it end, especially as 0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:23.480 we're going to see hopefully see that people will realize 0:32:23.520 --> 0:32:26.120 that that that direct action is going to become more 0:32:26.120 --> 0:32:28.960 and more important for securing your personal rights and securing 0:32:29.320 --> 0:32:32.880 your personal freedom. And also I would say these people, Okay, 0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:34.760 if you want to be completely sure if that something 0:32:34.880 --> 0:32:38.400 is happening is not an off, do it yourself. Stop 0:32:38.480 --> 0:32:41.160 yelling about it on Twitter. Do it yourself. Then you'll 0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:44.120 know it's not an off as a general rule. As 0:32:44.160 --> 0:32:47.760 a general rule, look at France. What do the French 0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:51.000 do whenever something they consider a right gets taken away 0:32:51.040 --> 0:32:54.920 from them? They burn downtown Paris down, They light banks 0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:59.920 on fire. They like Paris. Everyone who has gets select 0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:01.840 did to a position of power in France knows that 0:33:01.920 --> 0:33:06.080 if they cross certain lines, the capital will be ungovernable UM, 0:33:06.560 --> 0:33:09.560 and there's a reason why French people have such quality healthcare. 0:33:11.880 --> 0:33:14.360 Well with with with that note, I mean, I can't 0:33:14.360 --> 0:33:17.040 believe we're ending on the note be be like the French. 0:33:17.160 --> 0:33:20.040 I just is that is the friendship made a lot 0:33:20.120 --> 0:33:22.480 of good calls, a lot of bad ones to not 0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:25.360 trying to whitewash France, but there's a there's a number 0:33:25.400 --> 0:33:29.560 of things they got spot on. Anyway, we will we 0:33:29.600 --> 0:33:32.680 will be counting down the days until that thirty day marker, 0:33:33.040 --> 0:33:35.360 and who knows, maybe other attacks will happen with people 0:33:35.920 --> 0:33:40.040 also calling themselves Jane's revenge because and obviously this is 0:33:40.120 --> 0:33:42.479 something that we as journalists have no opinion on one 0:33:42.480 --> 0:33:47.920 way or the other. We're just reporting, just pure reporting. Anyway, 0:33:48.000 --> 0:33:51.480 Listen to listen to people who did cool stuff, to 0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:56.560 to hear about the Jane collective, and maybe also recreationally 0:33:56.640 --> 0:33:59.400 read about what different civilian groups are doing in Ukraine 0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:02.240 and the degree to which a wide variety of incredibly 0:34:02.280 --> 0:34:06.720 available tools UM can can be repurposed in neat ways. 0:34:07.520 --> 0:34:09.640 All right, I think I think that I think e'spisode 0:34:10.440 --> 0:34:28.520 that's a good sude. Hey, everybody welcome to it could 0:34:28.600 --> 0:34:34.120 happen here, and it continues to happen here. UM. I'm 0:34:34.200 --> 0:34:37.200 Robert Evans. This is a podcast about things falling apart 0:34:37.480 --> 0:34:40.319 and what to do after that happens. And we are 0:34:40.360 --> 0:34:44.720 all currently dealing with the falling apart of several decades 0:34:44.960 --> 0:34:48.920 of progress on reproductive justice. UM. The Supreme Court leaking 0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:54.239 that UM they are coming for Roe v. Wade and UM. Yeah. 0:34:54.320 --> 0:34:57.480 Today I'm here with Christopher Wong and Sharine Launie Unice 0:34:58.000 --> 0:35:01.080 UM and my producer Sophie. We have two guests from 0:35:01.200 --> 0:35:04.360 the bridget Alliance in the Midwest Access Coalition. We're going 0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:05.840 to talk more about what they do in a second. 0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:11.839 Broadly speaking, both seek to UM attach people who are 0:35:12.000 --> 0:35:16.760 looking for reproductive healthcare and abortion access UM but cannot 0:35:16.840 --> 0:35:19.840 get it easily in their area UM with clinics and 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:21.279 the things that they need in order to get to 0:35:21.320 --> 0:35:25.120 the clinics, including transit and you know, time and hotels whatnot, UM, 0:35:25.840 --> 0:35:28.160 in order to make it easier to get access to 0:35:28.440 --> 0:35:30.799 that kind of healthcare in places like the Midwest, where 0:35:31.160 --> 0:35:34.160 folks have been spending decades making it much more difficult 0:35:34.400 --> 0:35:36.359 even prior to this recent ruling to get that kind 0:35:36.400 --> 0:35:39.920 of healthcare. So I'm gonna let our guests introduce themselves. UM, 0:35:41.440 --> 0:35:45.360 you've got the floor. Well, Hi, I am O'Dell Shelley. 0:35:45.760 --> 0:35:50.080 I am the executive director at Deep Bridget Alliance, and 0:35:50.200 --> 0:35:56.600 I'm gonna introduce my counterpart here. I'm Diana Parker trusta 0:35:56.880 --> 0:36:01.000 from the executive director of the Midwest Access Coalition. And yeah, 0:36:01.280 --> 0:36:04.640 so you'll have been in some ways kind of dealing 0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:09.120 with elements of the post row world because obviously, like 0:36:09.600 --> 0:36:13.000 you know, we're all focused on the Supreme Court decision 0:36:13.040 --> 0:36:16.759 that's in the pipeline, but um, anti choice activists have 0:36:16.920 --> 0:36:22.239 been working very hard to essentially create a post row 0:36:22.320 --> 0:36:25.680 world in chunks of the United States prior to this point. 0:36:25.760 --> 0:36:27.400 So you all have been kind of dealing with the 0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:29.960 reality that a larger number of people are going to 0:36:30.000 --> 0:36:34.400 be living under for a while, right. Yeah. Yeah, MRURI 0:36:34.520 --> 0:36:38.640 has been able to effectively bad abortion state for years now. 0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:43.040 I think, Uh, there's maybe a handful of abortions that 0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:46.719 the one clinic there are able to do because of 0:36:46.840 --> 0:36:51.160 all of the trap laws, um, which is the targeted 0:36:51.200 --> 0:36:55.360 restrictions for abortion providers, uh, and the waiting period so 0:36:55.960 --> 0:37:02.880 people have to go to another state. Kansas Iowa or Illinois, Missouri. Um, 0:37:03.040 --> 0:37:07.319 and we've been helping those books for years, and UM, 0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:10.200 I'm going to guess this. I mean, just because you've 0:37:10.239 --> 0:37:13.279 been living in with this for a while, I'm gonna 0:37:13.320 --> 0:37:16.920 guess the announcement last week did not come as a 0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:22.840 total surprise. The timing of it certainly did, which for 0:37:23.000 --> 0:37:25.960 Diana and I came at the heels of a conference 0:37:26.000 --> 0:37:30.359 that we were at thankfully together, which is was kind 0:37:30.400 --> 0:37:32.520 of just pure luck for us so we could actually 0:37:32.560 --> 0:37:37.640 commiserate together. But no, ultimately this is not a huge surprise. 0:37:37.680 --> 0:37:41.239 I mean, I think we're all still waiting to see 0:37:41.280 --> 0:37:43.960 what actually happens in June. That the writing has been 0:37:44.000 --> 0:37:48.160 on the wall for months, in years, if not longer. 0:37:48.520 --> 0:37:52.000 And you know, as you were just pointing it out, essentially, 0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:56.520 for organizations like the bridget Alliance and the Midwest Exist Coalition, 0:37:56.719 --> 0:38:00.799 we have been existing already because the protections of ROW 0:38:00.960 --> 0:38:04.680 are insufficient to actually secure abortion access for all in 0:38:04.840 --> 0:38:08.880 this country. So this has been our lived experience, and 0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:12.040 preparing for this moment has um It has been a 0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:15.080 long time coming, and I'm sure there have been a 0:38:15.160 --> 0:38:18.759 number of conversations that have been going on about what 0:38:19.040 --> 0:38:21.319 to do and how to prepare for this right because 0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:24.560 the primary change is going to be, at least initially 0:38:24.640 --> 0:38:27.400 until some they make some sort of federal push that 0:38:27.760 --> 0:38:31.600 states that have some sort of functional access to abortion 0:38:31.960 --> 0:38:34.399 are going to be flooded with an even higher number 0:38:34.400 --> 0:38:36.440 of people in need of care. Um, could you kind 0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:40.160 of walk us through what sort of steps have been 0:38:40.239 --> 0:38:43.880 taken to in order to kind of brace for that impact, 0:38:44.000 --> 0:38:48.000 so to speak. Yeah, So I think a couple of things. 0:38:48.280 --> 0:38:50.560 And and the first to sort of pull back on 0:38:50.680 --> 0:38:53.000 that for a second is to say that part of 0:38:53.080 --> 0:38:56.719 preparing for what's to come has been our orgs in 0:38:56.800 --> 0:39:00.520 the community that we exist in. This this incredible expansive 0:39:00.640 --> 0:39:03.920 landscape of different types of organizations that have existed for 0:39:04.120 --> 0:39:08.359 decades to secure abortion access where the laws were insufficient, 0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:12.440 where um people were faced with barriers like income and 0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:19.080 equity and geographic inequity and the unavailability of providers. UM. 0:39:20.640 --> 0:39:24.680 This network, though, has existed largely unseen, and so a 0:39:24.760 --> 0:39:28.879 lot of preparing for what is to come is really 0:39:28.960 --> 0:39:33.000 embracing our existence, feeling affirmed in that and in our value, 0:39:33.160 --> 0:39:37.680 not shying away from the expertise within this community which 0:39:37.760 --> 0:39:41.399 is held book by volunteers as well as staff UM, 0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:43.600 and so I think a lot of the last couple 0:39:43.640 --> 0:39:47.320 of years has been focusing on really trying to harness 0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:50.719 that expertise and that knowledge and compassion and the fact 0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:52.920 that many of the people who are leading a lot 0:39:53.000 --> 0:39:55.560 of the efforts in the reproductive justice movement are people 0:39:55.600 --> 0:40:00.040 who have had abortions themselves, which is a enormous and 0:40:00.800 --> 0:40:04.080 valuable part of how this movement moves and hopefully will 0:40:04.719 --> 0:40:08.799 continue to center the people most impacted by the fall 0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:12.920 of row UM. I think, more specifically for Bridget and 0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:17.239 or its like MAC preparation means deepening our relationships with 0:40:17.440 --> 0:40:20.520 the clinics that we work with. They are critical, of course, 0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:24.600 and their sanity is critical to abortion access. Is making 0:40:24.640 --> 0:40:27.640 sure that we have the sufficient funding to continue to 0:40:27.800 --> 0:40:34.960 staff train that volunteers systematically and mindfully UM, and ideally 0:40:35.040 --> 0:40:36.920 do so in a sustainable way so that we're not 0:40:37.000 --> 0:40:40.160 all overwhelming ourselves with the sudden surge of need and 0:40:40.239 --> 0:40:43.320 the sudden surge of impact UM. And then you know, 0:40:43.440 --> 0:40:46.360 for Diana and I even personally, it means deepening the 0:40:46.400 --> 0:40:50.320 relationships that US practical support organizations have with one another, 0:40:50.520 --> 0:40:53.880 because no one organization is going to be able to 0:40:54.000 --> 0:40:56.920 help every single abortion seeker who will need to travel. 0:40:57.400 --> 0:41:02.000 It will rely upon really strong and transparent collaboration. So 0:41:02.840 --> 0:41:04.680 those are some of the things that you've been focusing on. 0:41:05.600 --> 0:41:07.720 One of the things that strikes me as a problem 0:41:08.000 --> 0:41:11.280 that's going to be, if not immediate, been pretty imminent 0:41:11.360 --> 0:41:15.120 for y'all is we've already seen threats and promises from 0:41:15.280 --> 0:41:19.040 legislators in some states to attempt to criminalize leaving a 0:41:19.200 --> 0:41:22.760 state where abortion is illegal in order to get access 0:41:22.840 --> 0:41:26.399 to healthcare. How what what kind of preparation is even 0:41:26.480 --> 0:41:29.799 possible for that sort of world, because it does seem 0:41:29.880 --> 0:41:33.440 like we're staring down the barrel of that. Yeah, I 0:41:33.520 --> 0:41:36.920 think the only preparation we can have right now is 0:41:37.120 --> 0:41:40.520 to expect that the corners will allow them to do that. Um. 0:41:40.880 --> 0:41:45.160 They're very creative now that they've seen a going to 0:41:45.280 --> 0:41:49.279 effect and hold on as the law of the land, 0:41:49.320 --> 0:41:52.480 even though it's in direct violation of federal law. UM 0:41:53.360 --> 0:41:57.560 scode us the highest code court of our country, UH 0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:00.400 is the one that has been allowing that to happen. 0:42:01.080 --> 0:42:03.879 And so that sends a huge message to all these 0:42:04.440 --> 0:42:09.000 UH force birth legislators that you know, bring us your 0:42:09.640 --> 0:42:13.480 worst take on the law. We will find a way 0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:17.360 to let you keep it. UM. We're we're working with 0:42:17.520 --> 0:42:22.200 you on this, and UM, you just need to get 0:42:22.239 --> 0:42:24.600 bolder and bolder and see what you can get away with. 0:42:25.560 --> 0:42:28.440 So we can't really predict how they're going to do that, 0:42:28.600 --> 0:42:34.239 although Missouri has indicated that they're going to consider an 0:42:34.320 --> 0:42:38.560 a guessing as it's fertilized a resident and um, a 0:42:38.680 --> 0:42:42.200 resident of the state, that they have, you know, responsibility 0:42:42.280 --> 0:42:47.080 for protecting um completely ignoring the fact that it's growing 0:42:47.280 --> 0:42:52.440 inside a complete human being that has rights. UM. But 0:42:52.600 --> 0:42:56.160 that's that's the latest that I've heard of them figuring 0:42:56.239 --> 0:43:00.920 out how to restrict someone's someone's travel um M. But 0:43:01.200 --> 0:43:05.600 it would require a significant shift in how we understand 0:43:06.040 --> 0:43:13.080 constitutional law and um the basis for our legal system. Yeah, 0:43:13.080 --> 0:43:15.759 and that that seems like something that I don't know, 0:43:15.920 --> 0:43:18.120 like really genuinely seems to be on the table in 0:43:18.200 --> 0:43:20.080 this moment. I mean, we have I think it's Louisiana 0:43:20.160 --> 0:43:23.239 who's trying to like part part part of their bill 0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:26.680 is that they like literally it says that they can 0:43:26.719 --> 0:43:31.759 disobey the federal government, which we had a civil war 0:43:31.960 --> 0:43:35.040 about that. We had we had a nullification crisis about 0:43:35.120 --> 0:43:38.840 that we like, so, yeah, I guess I'm wondering what 0:43:39.000 --> 0:43:43.880 your impression is on like how far this can go? 0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:46.480 Like do do we get to the point where states 0:43:46.560 --> 0:43:52.600 can just like tell the federal government no, Yeah, yeah, 0:43:52.680 --> 0:43:55.120 I mean that's what the architect of the st law 0:43:55.719 --> 0:43:58.960 essentially told The part is that they don't have jurisdiction 0:43:59.200 --> 0:44:01.120 and all the law is that they have passed in 0:44:01.920 --> 0:44:06.360 the eight hundreds are actually um enforceable, and the federal 0:44:06.440 --> 0:44:11.440 government has no authority to stop them, and uh they 0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:15.799 are the fifth district An Scotus has indicated that maybe 0:44:15.840 --> 0:44:18.560 you are right, maybe that is the correct way to 0:44:19.360 --> 0:44:24.360 interpret our constitution. Um. So I feel like all of that, 0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:32.080 all of our decades centuries of um figuring out what 0:44:32.280 --> 0:44:34.880 the law means for this country is just up in 0:44:34.920 --> 0:44:39.080 the air, and we may be looking at laws now 0:44:39.200 --> 0:44:44.319 that are just more and more buzzarre. Um. As long 0:44:44.480 --> 0:44:49.040 as you know the GOP and the Right have control 0:44:49.320 --> 0:44:53.360 over so many bodies of our government. You it really is, 0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:57.440 I can't even fathom. I don't think we can predict 0:44:57.520 --> 0:45:03.879 what's going to come honestly, UM, I mean I'm also 0:45:04.000 --> 0:45:11.279 wondering to put it crudely will legislators in states that 0:45:11.400 --> 0:45:13.640 are currently committing because we have seen a number of states, 0:45:13.760 --> 0:45:18.080 California kind of leading the pack committing to maintain um 0:45:18.360 --> 0:45:21.640 access to to to abortion and other forms of reproductive 0:45:21.680 --> 0:45:25.640 health care, they are being threatened right now. Do do 0:45:25.800 --> 0:45:28.719 you like, do you feel like you have a good 0:45:28.800 --> 0:45:31.520 chance that they are going to back you, especially in 0:45:31.600 --> 0:45:35.000 the event of, you know, laws that would potentially open 0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:37.879 people like you up to criminal charges just for trying 0:45:37.920 --> 0:45:40.759 to support people in getting you know, reproductive health care 0:45:40.800 --> 0:45:43.440 outside of their state. Is your question? Do you do 0:45:43.520 --> 0:45:46.319 we think that elected officials that are pro choice are 0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:48.640 going to back us? Yeah? Yeah, yeah? Do you like 0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:51.839 it's entirely possible that we're going to see some sort 0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:55.640 of federal law that not just criminalizes abortion or even 0:45:55.880 --> 0:45:59.800 like prior to that criminalizes aiding people in seeking a 0:46:00.040 --> 0:46:01.960 ortion outside of states that have banned it, right, Like, 0:46:02.080 --> 0:46:05.080 that's on the table. How does that change the landscape 0:46:05.120 --> 0:46:07.880 for it? Do you suspect that, like in kind of 0:46:07.920 --> 0:46:10.680 a similar way to how some of these some of 0:46:10.880 --> 0:46:13.319 the legislators and states trying to ban abortion and said, 0:46:13.320 --> 0:46:15.640 like we're just going to ignore federal law. If that 0:46:15.719 --> 0:46:18.719 contradicts our state law. Do you think that, um? Do 0:46:18.800 --> 0:46:21.480 you think that pro choice legislators in states you know, 0:46:21.680 --> 0:46:23.560 like California are going to be willing to go to 0:46:23.640 --> 0:46:27.000 the mat and protect you? Or are are we? I mean, yeah, 0:46:27.040 --> 0:46:29.800 I guess I I know this is kind of an unknown, 0:46:29.840 --> 0:46:32.520 but I'm kind of these must be conversations that y'all 0:46:32.520 --> 0:46:35.960 are having, right, I mean, I really freaking hope that 0:46:36.040 --> 0:46:39.320 they are. And if they're listening, please please prepare to 0:46:39.440 --> 0:46:43.680 do so. And it's been really heartening to see states 0:46:43.800 --> 0:46:48.600 like California and Oregon, in Illinois and New York and 0:46:48.719 --> 0:46:55.200 Connecticut for instance, UM, come up with really clear language 0:46:55.280 --> 0:46:58.719 around their support of not just choice, which was the 0:46:58.840 --> 0:47:02.040 language of the past, but abortion and are saying that 0:47:02.719 --> 0:47:06.200 and are starting to invest in things like abortion funding 0:47:06.400 --> 0:47:11.200 and travel to themselves actually, you know, put forth their 0:47:11.239 --> 0:47:13.480 own efforts to contribute to people who will need to 0:47:13.520 --> 0:47:17.640 travel into their states. UM. And you know, Diana was 0:47:17.760 --> 0:47:20.320 just speaking the other day with a bunch of elected 0:47:20.360 --> 0:47:22.840 officials in Chicago. So I think I think this is 0:47:22.960 --> 0:47:25.399 also why what I was talking about earlier in terms 0:47:25.440 --> 0:47:28.239 of orgs like ours coming coming into the light is 0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:31.239 so important. Is that we were going to need those 0:47:31.280 --> 0:47:34.000 relationships with those politicians. We're gonna need them to know 0:47:34.239 --> 0:47:36.320 us and see us and understand that we're a critical 0:47:36.440 --> 0:47:41.000 part of how we're going to serve their constituents and that, yeah, 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:43.440 we're going to need them to back us. Will they 0:47:43.600 --> 0:47:48.680 I can't say definitively, but I really freaking hope. So yeah, yeah, 0:47:48.760 --> 0:47:52.040 and hopefully those you know, as O'Dell said just now, 0:47:52.200 --> 0:47:56.759 I was UM in a press conference yesterday, the city 0:47:56.920 --> 0:48:00.520 the Mayor's office announced this fun to support abortion procedure 0:48:00.560 --> 0:48:04.520 funding and practical support. And my hope is with UM, 0:48:05.000 --> 0:48:07.839 municipalities will talk to each other and give each other 0:48:07.920 --> 0:48:14.280 the models for doing UH this protective, preemptive UH support 0:48:14.360 --> 0:48:18.759 for people traveling to our states for abortion care. And 0:48:19.480 --> 0:48:22.040 UM yeah, I'm in with talks with the a c 0:48:22.200 --> 0:48:26.920 l U in Illinois to talk about potential UM bills 0:48:26.960 --> 0:48:30.920 that are floating around to even further protect UH puption 0:48:31.080 --> 0:48:34.359 in this state. Specifically, I know of one that wants 0:48:34.400 --> 0:48:39.920 to explicitly protect providers from being extradited or sued or 0:48:40.080 --> 0:48:44.560 shut down by prosecutors in other states that want to 0:48:44.600 --> 0:48:48.359 claim that they have to jurisdiction because like like I said, 0:48:48.440 --> 0:48:52.279 they figured out a way to give residency status to 0:48:52.400 --> 0:48:57.120 fertilize eggs or something. Yeah, it's just completely fun that 0:48:57.280 --> 0:48:59.719 that's kind of what we're staring at right like that 0:48:59.840 --> 0:49:02.000 that's the thing that you have to be concerned with, 0:49:02.239 --> 0:49:06.120 is like out of state law enforcement. I don't know, 0:49:06.239 --> 0:49:07.440 like and and that's the thing. No one knows what 0:49:07.480 --> 0:49:08.960 it's going to look like, right Like we know that 0:49:09.080 --> 0:49:13.160 they have a vested kind of interest already in doing 0:49:13.239 --> 0:49:15.520 parts of this through bounties, which is kind of like 0:49:15.640 --> 0:49:16.920 the thing that I'm worried about. Are we going to 0:49:17.000 --> 0:49:20.160 see like out of state law enforcement bounty hunting people 0:49:20.239 --> 0:49:23.239 trying to folks up with reproductive healthcare? And I guess 0:49:23.320 --> 0:49:25.160 that's just kind of an unknown at this point, but 0:49:25.280 --> 0:49:29.280 it's right, and it really depends on like our local 0:49:29.760 --> 0:49:32.719 protected state juristics, Like how far are they going to 0:49:34.080 --> 0:49:37.640 go to protect us from those entities that are going 0:49:37.680 --> 0:49:41.160 to try to come in for us? Um. Just just today, 0:49:41.960 --> 0:49:46.240 one of our staff members tweeted about practical support funds 0:49:46.280 --> 0:49:48.840 and who to support throughout the country that provides the 0:49:48.920 --> 0:49:54.520 sort of travel logistics for people, and they got followed 0:49:54.560 --> 0:49:59.720 by a sheriff department in Missouri Yeah, so they're already 0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:05.600 out targeting and surveilling uh, abortion seekers and that people 0:50:05.600 --> 0:50:08.840 who support them. Yeah, and of course I'm sure that 0:50:09.200 --> 0:50:11.000 there's a degree to which some of these folks are 0:50:11.040 --> 0:50:14.600 working with um, shall we say, like nonstate actors in 0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:17.400 order to like, I know they've been prepping with that 0:50:17.520 --> 0:50:22.880 for a while as well. Um, what is I mean 0:50:22.960 --> 0:50:24.920 one of the things that I know because I've been 0:50:24.960 --> 0:50:28.000 having some conversations with friends of mine who are and 0:50:28.320 --> 0:50:32.440 like I guess we could say adjacently adjacent organizations to 0:50:32.719 --> 0:50:34.480 to where y'all work and who are at in some 0:50:34.640 --> 0:50:37.360 cases the convention you were at, who are concerned that 0:50:38.840 --> 0:50:44.279 as providing people with reproductive healthcare becomes illegal. Um, there's 0:50:44.320 --> 0:50:46.520 going to be a lot of fair weather friends kind 0:50:46.560 --> 0:50:50.920 of revealed and I I am interested, like, is this 0:50:51.040 --> 0:50:54.160 a thing that in order to be engaged in providing 0:50:54.200 --> 0:50:56.480 people with reproductive health care you have to be willing 0:50:56.800 --> 0:50:59.680 to engage in illegalism at this point? Like is that 0:51:00.160 --> 0:51:06.520 where we are? That's really interesting question. Yeah, as as 0:51:06.640 --> 0:51:12.160 members like as bribing C threes, uh, you know looked 0:51:12.360 --> 0:51:17.640 at by our state governments are federal governments. We can't 0:51:17.680 --> 0:51:23.160 engage in anything that's legal UM. But people have forever 0:51:24.120 --> 0:51:27.240 on their own dumb things that the state has considered 0:51:27.280 --> 0:51:31.480 illegal in order to have bodily autonomy. UM. There are 0:51:31.520 --> 0:51:33.640 people who can't afford it. There are people who are 0:51:33.760 --> 0:51:36.799 just so far from the nearest clinic that they can't 0:51:36.840 --> 0:51:42.000 even fathom how to make that trip. Uh. They're undocumented folks. UH. 0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:46.759 There are people near the borders that can't even physically 0:51:46.880 --> 0:51:50.480 move past a border trick point because they're just trapped 0:51:50.640 --> 0:51:55.279 there and can't get care UM in other parts of 0:51:55.360 --> 0:51:59.800 their state where it's available. UM. So they're that that 0:52:00.000 --> 0:52:03.320 will be a thing. I think that is going to increase, 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:10.040 because the need will not decrease UM. And I do not, 0:52:12.000 --> 0:52:15.080 like my organization can't really see anything about that. But 0:52:15.840 --> 0:52:19.120 you know, personally, I'm like, you do whatever it takes 0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:23.680 to live your life and thrive. UM laws are made 0:52:23.760 --> 0:52:28.440 up especially now. Yeah, that is nice to hear, because I, 0:52:28.600 --> 0:52:34.280 you know, I try to keep abreast of the sides 0:52:34.360 --> 0:52:37.960 of this fight that are you know, working through five 0:52:37.960 --> 0:52:40.880 o one ses and and the like, and and engaging 0:52:40.880 --> 0:52:44.000 in electoralism. The people who are you know, doing stuff 0:52:44.040 --> 0:52:48.320 like trying to figure out ways to UM provide access 0:52:48.320 --> 0:52:51.719 to like miss pills and whatnot to people. UM, because 0:52:51.800 --> 0:52:54.800 that's just where we are. We've talked about the degree 0:52:54.840 --> 0:52:58.680 to which you guys have already been living in some 0:52:58.880 --> 0:53:01.879 people's future, you know, just because of the specific nature 0:53:01.880 --> 0:53:04.920 of what your organizations have been doing. UM, and the 0:53:05.000 --> 0:53:06.840 degree to which you know you knew some of this 0:53:07.000 --> 0:53:09.320 is coming. What has surprised you outside of just like 0:53:09.400 --> 0:53:12.040 the fact that it got leaked ahead of time about 0:53:12.120 --> 0:53:14.320 kind of what we've seen in the last weekend change. 0:53:15.600 --> 0:53:23.040 Mm hmmm, mm hmm. I think I am. I'm not 0:53:23.120 --> 0:53:28.200 so much surprised by the response from folks. UM, I'm 0:53:28.200 --> 0:53:34.520 a little frustrated that it took this moment for people 0:53:34.680 --> 0:53:38.520 to realize what has been happening in this country for 0:53:38.640 --> 0:53:43.440 the past decade, few decades. Honestly, this is this is 0:53:43.480 --> 0:53:47.000 a very long game, uh for the antis. But ever 0:53:47.120 --> 0:53:50.520 since Trump was put into office and started just flooding 0:53:50.560 --> 0:53:56.200 the federal courts with very young, very anti conservative judges, UM, 0:53:57.280 --> 0:54:04.560 and SPA was a huge flag. UM. But I think 0:54:06.520 --> 0:54:11.759 I was surprised that there was a mass amount of 0:54:11.880 --> 0:54:16.360 people that we're going to step up when the decision 0:54:16.480 --> 0:54:20.799 came out. UM, it's it gives me hope I hope 0:54:20.800 --> 0:54:23.840 it's sustained for the many many years we're going to 0:54:24.000 --> 0:54:28.319 need uh practical support and abortion funds while we fight 0:54:28.400 --> 0:54:36.600 for legal rights. Um. Yeah, so I guess the surprise 0:54:36.920 --> 0:54:41.200 is a mixed it's a box bad for me. Yeah, 0:54:41.440 --> 0:54:44.600 I was gonna say something similar that I think I've 0:54:44.640 --> 0:54:49.840 been pleasantly surprised at how well educated and informed a 0:54:50.000 --> 0:54:55.160 lot of our supporters and newer supporters are about. As 0:54:55.200 --> 0:54:58.880 Diana mentioned, the existence of abortion funds and practical support organizations. 0:54:58.960 --> 0:55:01.800 That practical support is and being talked about is huge. 0:55:02.080 --> 0:55:06.200 We couldn't get this conversation into the media a couple 0:55:06.239 --> 0:55:10.200 of years ago, So like, this is really remarkable and important. 0:55:10.280 --> 0:55:12.600 But what's more, there seems to be also like a 0:55:12.640 --> 0:55:16.600 different understanding of why we have to exist. Um, it 0:55:16.880 --> 0:55:19.120 doesn't seem to be shocking people quite as much. A 0:55:19.160 --> 0:55:21.400 but there certainly are still tons of people who are 0:55:21.480 --> 0:55:24.640 shocked by this, But for many they're not shocked that 0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:29.600 for some abortion has simply been inaccessible and what those 0:55:29.680 --> 0:55:33.000 reasons are. Um. And you know, that's thanks obviously to 0:55:33.080 --> 0:55:37.120 a lot of the really hard, important conversations that have 0:55:37.200 --> 0:55:39.840 been had over the last couple of years about racial justice, 0:55:40.440 --> 0:55:43.560 and I think that, you know, it's a silver lining 0:55:43.640 --> 0:55:45.800 for sure, but I'm I'm grateful to find that the 0:55:46.280 --> 0:55:49.279 depth of the conversations is there now and hopefully that 0:55:49.400 --> 0:55:51.800 means that the commitment is going to be sustained in 0:55:51.920 --> 0:55:55.160 long term, because this is a little bit of deja 0:55:55.280 --> 0:55:57.680 vu for us in the sense that we've had little 0:55:57.760 --> 0:56:01.719 moments like these ever since our organized aations existed. Um, 0:56:01.880 --> 0:56:04.560 when a single band goes into place or is threatened 0:56:04.600 --> 0:56:09.000 to go into place, this like swell occurs using my 0:56:09.080 --> 0:56:10.879 hands a lot, which obviously you can't see if you're 0:56:10.920 --> 0:56:12.440 listening to me right now, So I'm gonna put my 0:56:12.520 --> 0:56:16.680 hands down, um, and you know, and that and that 0:56:16.800 --> 0:56:19.520 brings out a lot of really incredible donors and a 0:56:19.600 --> 0:56:23.160 lot of really incredible offers for volunteers, and and then 0:56:23.239 --> 0:56:26.279 they tend to go away. Um. And especially when when 0:56:26.320 --> 0:56:29.080 Biden was you know, elected, and there was definitely this 0:56:29.239 --> 0:56:31.400 like moment where everyone was like, Okay, we're cool, right, 0:56:31.560 --> 0:56:33.799 which this guy hasn't said the word abortion, but we're 0:56:33.800 --> 0:56:39.360 still fine, and we're not we're like the furthest from fine. 0:56:40.000 --> 0:56:45.360 So yeah, again, like pleasantly surprised that people seem to 0:56:46.080 --> 0:56:50.680 have um, a sense of why we're here. Yeah, I 0:56:50.760 --> 0:56:53.399 just wanted to bring up the website. Did Biden say 0:56:53.400 --> 0:57:03.440 abortion yet or its like it's so unfortunately hilarious to me, um, 0:57:03.640 --> 0:57:06.399 but I'm just really glad it exists. Um. And then 0:57:07.080 --> 0:57:10.960 they someone reached out to the someone in the Biden 0:57:10.960 --> 0:57:15.160 administration to make a comment on this when the when 0:57:15.600 --> 0:57:19.400 the the draft was leaked, and they said, well, we 0:57:19.520 --> 0:57:21.600 tweeted it or like whatever it's and it's like it's 0:57:21.640 --> 0:57:23.440 he said it once in a tweet and like once 0:57:23.480 --> 0:57:26.320 in like a statement or something. So I just think 0:57:26.320 --> 0:57:28.200 it's there, you go. I don't know what more we want, 0:57:28.600 --> 0:57:30.080 but like, I just think it's important to what you 0:57:30.160 --> 0:57:34.640 were saying earlier. Um, how legislators in Oregon or California, 0:57:34.680 --> 0:57:36.960 like it's so important they're saying the word abortion, not 0:57:37.160 --> 0:57:39.680 just pro choice, because I think a lot of people 0:57:39.720 --> 0:57:41.960 are a lot of people are scared about that word 0:57:42.000 --> 0:57:43.960 for some reason or it sounds scary to them if 0:57:43.960 --> 0:57:47.720 they're not that educated about what pro choice means or 0:57:47.760 --> 0:57:51.080 what abortion means. So I think I have a little 0:57:51.080 --> 0:57:54.160 bit more hope seeing more people even saying that word, um, 0:57:54.720 --> 0:57:58.400 because it really has pro choice. Yeah. Yeah, I think 0:57:58.480 --> 0:58:03.080 the statistics is something like the antis have been using 0:58:03.120 --> 0:58:05.360 the word abortion three times as much as we have, 0:58:05.840 --> 0:58:09.840 and that is why it's so stigmatized and difficult to 0:58:09.920 --> 0:58:13.680 talk about. And I definitely try to encourage people to 0:58:13.840 --> 0:58:16.840 say the word abortion, to talk about abortion with everyone 0:58:16.920 --> 0:58:20.960 they know, just so we can stop hiding. I guess 0:58:21.040 --> 0:58:22.400 kind of the last thing I'd like to ask, and 0:58:22.480 --> 0:58:24.720 we can we can cut this bit if this winds 0:58:24.800 --> 0:58:26.400 up not being something you want to get into. But 0:58:27.000 --> 0:58:31.000 have you have you felt an additional need to worry 0:58:31.040 --> 0:58:36.120 about given how public you are in your advocacy personal 0:58:36.200 --> 0:58:40.560 protection UM as things kind of have heated up, you know, 0:58:40.720 --> 0:58:43.640 we were we were recently at the conference that you 0:58:43.760 --> 0:58:50.480 mentioned before, UM, and it definitely with all of my 0:58:50.640 --> 0:58:53.680 colleagues in one place, it definitely made me feel a 0:58:53.720 --> 0:58:58.240 little vulnerable for myself and them. But honestly, the people 0:58:58.280 --> 0:59:02.120 who are targeted or the providers by far UM, I'm 0:59:02.160 --> 0:59:05.880 not worried about my physical safety. UM. I'm worried about 0:59:05.920 --> 0:59:09.360 the physical safety ever of our providers and the fact 0:59:09.480 --> 0:59:14.480 that our government is responding to peaceful protesters outside kavanas 0:59:15.240 --> 0:59:21.040 Um House and talking and and asked for I think 0:59:21.200 --> 0:59:26.880 Susan Collins on the sidewalk outside her residents results in 0:59:27.800 --> 0:59:35.000 legislation being immediately they all somehow got together for once 0:59:35.000 --> 0:59:40.720 in their lives to do something about the terrorists who 0:59:40.880 --> 0:59:48.360 chalked sidewalks by legislators home. Um uh is it's it's 0:59:49.280 --> 0:59:54.320 really demoralizing. Um because we have our providers have seen 0:59:54.400 --> 1:00:00.800 violence and um yeah, they've seen violence on this every day, murders, 1:00:00.880 --> 1:00:07.000 asset attacks, bombings. Um. Yeah, Chris Sharine, do you have 1:00:07.040 --> 1:00:09.479 anything else you wanted to get into. Yeah, I wanted 1:00:09.520 --> 1:00:11.320 to ask one thing, so, you know, Okay, seeing this 1:00:11.400 --> 1:00:16.640 sort of increasing fectlessness or politicians even by their standards, 1:00:16.840 --> 1:00:20.840 and you know, the response to this being let's give 1:00:20.880 --> 1:00:24.600 more power to the U. S. Marshals, which is great idea, 1:00:24.960 --> 1:00:28.120 the worst idea I've ever seen. But what can just 1:00:28.600 --> 1:00:32.040 people do about this in it? You know, I mean 1:00:32.080 --> 1:00:34.600 we've talked about like giving to abortion funds, but like 1:00:34.800 --> 1:00:36.680 what how how can people get involved and how can 1:00:36.720 --> 1:00:38.680 people get involved in a way that's sustainable of the 1:00:38.800 --> 1:00:43.960 long term. Yeah, I mean, definitely give to abortion funds, 1:00:44.040 --> 1:00:48.440 give to practical support organizations like the Midwest Access Coalition 1:00:48.600 --> 1:00:52.640 and the bridget Alliance. Um. If you are interested in volunteering, 1:00:52.880 --> 1:00:55.800 reach out to your local organization. UM. There are a 1:00:55.840 --> 1:00:59.680 couple of really great resources for lists of those organizations 1:00:59.720 --> 1:01:01.920 and where they are, like the National Network of Abortion 1:01:02.040 --> 1:01:07.280 Funds UM. And you do bear with all of us 1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:11.720 because we are handling a flurry of emails and that's incredible, 1:01:11.840 --> 1:01:15.040 But we won't be able to plug you in immediately. UM. 1:01:15.120 --> 1:01:17.120 It might even take a little bit of time. But 1:01:17.240 --> 1:01:21.200 then I think that you know, voting is still critical, 1:01:21.480 --> 1:01:26.400 especially in local UM, in any local elections, especially if 1:01:26.440 --> 1:01:28.960 we're thinking about how we're going to prevent the possible 1:01:29.000 --> 1:01:33.920 criminalization of abortion seekers and of abortion providers, we need 1:01:33.960 --> 1:01:36.360 to make sure that we've got the judges and good 1:01:36.440 --> 1:01:39.440 local elected officials at the very least, So do not 1:01:39.640 --> 1:01:43.360 stop doing that. UM. Yeah, I think those would be 1:01:43.400 --> 1:01:45.440 the things that I would say, focus on and the 1:01:45.520 --> 1:01:47.720 thing that I always say, which is just like talk 1:01:47.800 --> 1:01:50.960 about it. Like I am totally that person who is 1:01:51.040 --> 1:01:53.720 like the downer at the dinner party talking about abortion, 1:01:53.960 --> 1:01:57.680 But be that person and go and talk about it 1:01:58.000 --> 1:02:00.800 and share why it's important and how it's not just 1:02:00.920 --> 1:02:04.840 about abortion, and it's not just about women, it's about families, 1:02:05.000 --> 1:02:09.280 it's about parents, it's about queer folks, it's it's about immigrants, 1:02:09.320 --> 1:02:12.720 it's about miners. Um, You've got a lot to be 1:02:12.760 --> 1:02:16.720 worried about right now, So don't stop talking, listening, reading, 1:02:16.840 --> 1:02:22.480 consuming whatever you can. Yeah, And just to jump off that, 1:02:23.160 --> 1:02:25.280 if you are in a safe state, you're not going 1:02:25.480 --> 1:02:28.320 You're not going to be safe forever. Uh, They're gonna 1:02:28.360 --> 1:02:31.320 come after us. They're going to come after the legislators. 1:02:32.000 --> 1:02:36.640 The supreme courts of those states. They're usually a thin margin, 1:02:37.120 --> 1:02:43.240 um as far as conservative versus progressive judges on state 1:02:43.320 --> 1:02:47.560 supreme courts. So find out who your local org is 1:02:47.680 --> 1:02:51.560 that is leading that voter turnout to make sure that 1:02:51.640 --> 1:02:54.680 people are voting for the right judges go in. Um. 1:02:55.120 --> 1:02:59.080 And also I wanna lift up escorts. Escorts are on 1:02:59.200 --> 1:03:02.480 the ground many days of the week. They will put 1:03:02.560 --> 1:03:04.760 you to work and they're going to be needed more 1:03:04.840 --> 1:03:09.480 and more. UM. Yeah, I think that's that's all very 1:03:09.520 --> 1:03:12.000 important and a good note to end on. Does anyone 1:03:12.040 --> 1:03:14.840 else have anything else? Or are we um? Should we should? 1:03:14.880 --> 1:03:17.960 We Let y'all get back to your very important work. UM, 1:03:18.040 --> 1:03:21.680 And thank you again for for making the time for us, absolutely, 1:03:21.840 --> 1:03:24.479 thank you for covering us and talking about it. Yeah, 1:03:26.320 --> 1:03:28.960 happy to do so we'll be we'll be continuing to 1:03:30.040 --> 1:03:36.920 to do that. And I hope you all, um, um, jeez, 1:03:36.960 --> 1:03:38.760 I don't even know what to say. Like, I hope you. 1:03:39.440 --> 1:03:41.320 I hope you function up for the people who are 1:03:41.600 --> 1:03:48.120 sucking shut up, you know. But I hope the support 1:03:48.200 --> 1:03:52.160 doesn't like dissipate as like the trend goes away or whatever. 1:03:52.320 --> 1:03:54.520 You know. I think that's so disheartening if that happens. 1:03:54.560 --> 1:03:58.360 And like, hopefully the flood of emails but not necessarily 1:03:59.000 --> 1:04:00.840 remains a flood for you. But like, I hope that 1:04:00.880 --> 1:04:04.640 people are actually serious about doing something. And um, I 1:04:04.680 --> 1:04:07.840 think this time they might be just because I keep 1:04:07.920 --> 1:04:12.120 being surprised about little things, so I'm not gonna expect 1:04:12.160 --> 1:04:17.000 anything anymore. Maybe people were surprising, But I really appreciate 1:04:17.000 --> 1:04:19.280 the work you do. Um, So thanks for coming out 1:04:19.320 --> 1:04:37.320 to talk to us. Thank you for us talk to 1:04:37.400 --> 1:04:40.920 your zoom h six about crack cocaine abuse. Some amount 1:04:40.920 --> 1:04:43.720 of crack cocaine is perfectly normal for recording device you 1:04:43.880 --> 1:04:46.600 to use. It is part of the recording industry. But 1:04:46.800 --> 1:04:49.160 everyone can overdo it. And if your zoom h six 1:04:49.240 --> 1:04:52.480 starts not reading cards or for example, stealing from you 1:04:52.560 --> 1:04:54.880 in ordered upon your stuff to buy more crack cocaine. 1:04:55.200 --> 1:04:57.640 You might need to do an intervention. This has been 1:04:57.720 --> 1:05:00.680 Robert Evans and a public service. And now about the 1:05:00.760 --> 1:05:04.880 zoom h six handhold recorder? How's that? Are we good? 1:05:05.640 --> 1:05:07.520 Is that a good way to introduce a podcast? What 1:05:09.000 --> 1:05:13.600 depends an That's a great question, Sophie. Scholars have debated 1:05:13.640 --> 1:05:17.280 for decades which show this is. But personally it is 1:05:17.320 --> 1:05:20.560 the opinion of myself, uh and a large body of 1:05:20.680 --> 1:05:23.520 researchers at Oxford and Cambridge that this is It could 1:05:23.520 --> 1:05:26.320 happen here a podcast about how things are falling apart 1:05:26.400 --> 1:05:28.880 and how maybe put them back together one of these 1:05:29.000 --> 1:05:32.120 days figure it out. I'm here with Garrison and Chris. 1:05:32.200 --> 1:05:35.560 How are you guys? How are y'all doing? Just just 1:05:35.760 --> 1:05:40.680 absolutely splendid. I'm extremely excited that every time I leave 1:05:40.680 --> 1:05:43.440 Twitter as a new mass shooting there's there was, Like 1:05:44.160 --> 1:05:47.920 this has been weekend. There have been quite a few 1:05:48.000 --> 1:05:50.479 mass shootings in the last forty eight hours, and there's 1:05:50.520 --> 1:05:54.000 a non zero chance there's been at least one between 1:05:54.040 --> 1:05:56.200 when we record this podcast and when you listen to it. 1:05:57.320 --> 1:06:00.160 I'm not trying to be flippant. That's just a reality. UM. 1:06:01.240 --> 1:06:02.640 So I think we're going to talk about the two 1:06:02.680 --> 1:06:05.800 most recent ones, one of which UM was the mass 1:06:05.800 --> 1:06:11.080 shooting in Buffalo, New York by a four chan motherfucking 1:06:11.840 --> 1:06:15.840 white supremacist very much patterned after the twenty nineteen eight 1:06:15.920 --> 1:06:19.360 Chan shootings, particularly the christ Church massacre UM, and then 1:06:19.880 --> 1:06:22.600 the day after. I guess it's not technically a mass 1:06:22.640 --> 1:06:25.360 shooting because only one person was killed, thankfully, UM. But 1:06:25.480 --> 1:06:27.920 there was a shooting that was certainly an attempt to 1:06:27.960 --> 1:06:29.800 be a mass shooting because he attempted to close the 1:06:29.840 --> 1:06:33.320 exit and stop people from leaving at a Taiwanese church 1:06:34.080 --> 1:06:37.840 UM in southern California, UM, which was stopped by the 1:06:37.880 --> 1:06:41.600 congregation before nearly as many people could get killed. UM. 1:06:41.880 --> 1:06:45.720 It appears to be it's just come out, UM, motivated 1:06:45.840 --> 1:06:51.640 by nationalist hatred of Taiwan by a Chinese man. UM. 1:06:52.600 --> 1:06:58.120 That's the broad understanding of both. Its complicated. Yeah, I'm 1:06:58.120 --> 1:07:01.360 sure we'll get into that that, but we should probably 1:07:01.400 --> 1:07:08.120 deal with them chronologically. UM. The Buffalo shooting is it's 1:07:08.160 --> 1:07:10.560 one of those things I made a big chunk of 1:07:10.680 --> 1:07:13.640 my bones as a journalist in the field that I 1:07:13.760 --> 1:07:16.280 used to spend most of my time reporting and covering 1:07:16.360 --> 1:07:19.720 the eight Chan shootings, and after every one of those 1:07:19.760 --> 1:07:22.320 in twenty nineteen, I had an article within about two hours. 1:07:22.720 --> 1:07:24.880 I haven't written anything about this one. I don't plan 1:07:25.000 --> 1:07:28.600 to because there's not much to say. It is what 1:07:28.760 --> 1:07:31.280 we've seen before. UM. I know there's some debate over 1:07:31.360 --> 1:07:33.040 how much of the man as there should be, over 1:07:33.120 --> 1:07:34.560 like how much of the manifesto you can take at 1:07:34.560 --> 1:07:37.080 face value, which is none of it, um and, as 1:07:37.120 --> 1:07:39.320 to whether or not there might be something more going 1:07:39.400 --> 1:07:42.200 on here. But it is kind of my opinion from 1:07:42.240 --> 1:07:45.200 the information we have, that this is the kind of 1:07:45.240 --> 1:07:47.160 attack we've seen before and the kind of attack we 1:07:47.200 --> 1:07:49.640 will probably see again more than once before the years over. 1:07:49.920 --> 1:07:56.240 You know, this is someone who was radicalized primarily against uh, 1:07:56.640 --> 1:08:00.120 the immigration or the existence really of people who are 1:08:00.160 --> 1:08:03.720 not white in the United States um and believes that 1:08:03.800 --> 1:08:07.480 the best way to cleanse the country of people who 1:08:07.520 --> 1:08:09.840 are not white is to carry out mass shootings that 1:08:09.840 --> 1:08:13.440 will radicalize other people and that will lead further to 1:08:13.520 --> 1:08:16.400 the breakdown of civil society in the United States by 1:08:16.560 --> 1:08:19.759 pushing it kind of like hot button issues like gun control, 1:08:20.439 --> 1:08:23.600 UM in order to further you know, it's an accelerationist 1:08:23.720 --> 1:08:26.240 sort of attack. Um. So yeah, that's that's what I'm 1:08:26.320 --> 1:08:31.400 seeing here. Yep. I mean it's yeah, like like we said, 1:08:31.439 --> 1:08:35.400 it's very very much riffing off of christ Church. I 1:08:35.439 --> 1:08:39.800 mean at least over half of his manifesto was like 1:08:39.880 --> 1:08:44.600 specifically richized manifesto, which, of course that manifesto itself was 1:08:44.920 --> 1:08:47.280 was ripped from a lot of other manifestoes. It's kind 1:08:47.320 --> 1:08:51.559 of just just a series of like launching the medic 1:08:51.680 --> 1:08:54.720 language from one shooting to another, just kind of compiling 1:08:54.760 --> 1:08:58.160 into this massive conglomerate that's all based on trying to 1:08:58.960 --> 1:09:01.120 convince more people to do the same act. Um. That's 1:09:01.160 --> 1:09:04.320 really that's that's why when people are like talking about 1:09:04.360 --> 1:09:07.479 this and people try to limit the attention on the 1:09:07.640 --> 1:09:09.479 manifestos and that kind of stuff, because it's it's all 1:09:09.560 --> 1:09:12.479 crafted specifically to get other people to do the exact 1:09:12.520 --> 1:09:15.920 same thing. Um. It's it's filled with themes, filmed with 1:09:16.040 --> 1:09:18.120 filled filled with in jokes, full of like in grip 1:09:18.240 --> 1:09:20.760 up group stuff to convince people to kind of go 1:09:20.840 --> 1:09:22.960 down a similar path, and all of it's carefully crafted 1:09:23.000 --> 1:09:25.120 that way. The one really interesting thing about this is 1:09:25.200 --> 1:09:28.639 that there's not only manifesto, but also like unless seven 1:09:28.720 --> 1:09:31.599 hundred pages of diaries that he posted as well, um 1:09:31.680 --> 1:09:35.120 and logs from from like over like like like from 1:09:35.160 --> 1:09:39.200 a long, long, long time, tracking his inner thoughts. But 1:09:39.280 --> 1:09:41.760 also like again, he posted it and he knew he 1:09:41.800 --> 1:09:44.080 was gonna do this, So there's no telling how how 1:09:44.160 --> 1:09:46.719 accurate that is. It's all it's all in this package 1:09:46.760 --> 1:09:49.400 that he wants to present to people. So a lot 1:09:49.439 --> 1:09:51.200 of the navvy gritty are is not even worth talking 1:09:51.200 --> 1:09:53.400 about in a lot of a lot of cases. No, 1:09:53.520 --> 1:09:57.240 and I'm not I think there's broadly speaking, things you 1:09:57.320 --> 1:09:59.200 can learn. And I'm also to be clear, I'm not 1:09:59.240 --> 1:10:02.880 against searchers studying, and I think it should be absolutely 1:10:03.360 --> 1:10:05.519 I am against just finding a thing in there and 1:10:05.680 --> 1:10:08.200 like posting it like when I when I made my post, 1:10:08.280 --> 1:10:11.040 I was pretty careful to note a couple of things 1:10:11.160 --> 1:10:13.760 that seemed consistent based on other aspects of the like 1:10:14.320 --> 1:10:16.959 things that he claimed about his radicalization that seemed consistent 1:10:17.000 --> 1:10:18.960 with what we were seeing, Like he noted that he 1:10:19.040 --> 1:10:22.320 was primarily radicalized online. That seems plausible to me because 1:10:22.360 --> 1:10:26.560 of how fucking online the manifesto is. Um like and 1:10:26.680 --> 1:10:30.080 and it's one of those folks are not entirely wrongfully 1:10:30.120 --> 1:10:33.200 bringing up the fact that the great Replacement White genocide 1:10:33.280 --> 1:10:36.080 sort of conspiracy theory that seems to have motivated this 1:10:36.160 --> 1:10:39.479 fellow is basically identical to Ship Tucker Carlson says, that's 1:10:39.520 --> 1:10:42.920 not not that that's not what radicalized him though, but 1:10:43.080 --> 1:10:46.040 that's not what radicalized Yes, this is not a dude 1:10:46.080 --> 1:10:48.920 who was watching Fox right. That's something I've been frustrated 1:10:49.200 --> 1:10:52.160 by looking at the discourse because yes, obviously Tucker shouldn't 1:10:52.160 --> 1:10:54.880 be talking about this because he's normalizing this very rhetoric 1:10:55.000 --> 1:10:58.400 that you find in these manifestos, but he did. He 1:10:58.520 --> 1:11:00.519 did not find this from Tucker. This is like it's 1:11:00.520 --> 1:11:04.120 it's it's a whole whole different ball game. Um. And 1:11:04.200 --> 1:11:05.800 when there's that conflation, I do find it to be 1:11:05.880 --> 1:11:10.080 slightly frustrating. Yeah, And some of the problem with discussing 1:11:10.160 --> 1:11:14.679 this is the problem with discussing basically any of these attacks, 1:11:15.000 --> 1:11:18.280 is that the mass media coverage of it is nearly 1:11:18.400 --> 1:11:21.000 always going to flatten it to a degree that works 1:11:21.080 --> 1:11:23.960 in the favor of the people who are using this 1:11:24.240 --> 1:11:28.519 as propaganda of the deed. And we can talk about 1:11:28.680 --> 1:11:31.800 maybe are there ways to detern that you know, I've 1:11:31.880 --> 1:11:34.200 I've definitely that's something that I've spent a decent amount 1:11:34.240 --> 1:11:37.040 of my career kind of struggling with. It's it's a 1:11:37.360 --> 1:11:42.120 tough thing to do because, um, one of the things 1:11:42.200 --> 1:11:44.160 that's very frustrating that we've we've seen in the wake 1:11:44.240 --> 1:11:45.599 of this attack, and that we see in the wake 1:11:45.680 --> 1:11:50.559 of basically every politically motivated attack is a whole bunch 1:11:50.640 --> 1:11:53.719 of people from a whole different bunch of belief systems, 1:11:53.760 --> 1:11:58.679 insides immediately trying to spin it in order to push 1:11:59.439 --> 1:12:01.920 the narrative if they think is useful for the attack 1:12:02.000 --> 1:12:04.679 to have, and some of them believe legitimately what they're saying. 1:12:04.720 --> 1:12:06.280 Like the folks, I think most of the people who 1:12:06.320 --> 1:12:08.920 are like this is you know, Tucker Carlson's doing are 1:12:09.000 --> 1:12:11.360 generally just folks who have not spent as much time 1:12:11.400 --> 1:12:14.479 in the fever swamps as we have. And see, oh, 1:12:14.520 --> 1:12:16.759 Tucker Carlson's talking about this this guy carried out of shooting. 1:12:16.760 --> 1:12:18.320 They must be related, right. I don't think that's like, 1:12:18.840 --> 1:12:20.800 that's wrong, but I don't think that's malicious. And then 1:12:20.840 --> 1:12:23.200 you get folks who are malicious with it, right, like 1:12:23.320 --> 1:12:27.240 you have stuff the folks right one of the one 1:12:27.280 --> 1:12:30.439 of the narratives we've seen form, particularly from what I 1:12:30.560 --> 1:12:33.519 like to call the ship head left. Um is folks 1:12:33.600 --> 1:12:35.640 being like, well, there was a sun and rod, the 1:12:35.760 --> 1:12:39.640 black sun. It's a Nazi a culti symbol. People who 1:12:39.680 --> 1:12:41.560 are more nerds about Nazis will even quipped that, but 1:12:41.600 --> 1:12:43.920 that's that's the broad strokes of what it is, um. 1:12:44.120 --> 1:12:46.320 And it's it's a symbol that's definitely on some as 1:12:46.320 --> 1:12:48.479 of gear. It's also on a has been on a 1:12:48.520 --> 1:12:52.400 bunch of ships well before there was an as. It's 1:12:52.439 --> 1:12:55.920 all over the place. And um, the reason he did it, 1:12:56.000 --> 1:12:58.160 the reason he had a black sun on some ship 1:12:58.600 --> 1:13:01.600 was not because of the as of but allien um it. 1:13:01.880 --> 1:13:04.000 In fact, he talked about wanting to break up NATO 1:13:04.040 --> 1:13:06.599 a bunch, but it was because the son and rad 1:13:06.720 --> 1:13:09.240 was on the chest of the plate carrier of the 1:13:09.520 --> 1:13:12.519 christ Church Shooter. Yes, but there's always a big fan 1:13:12.560 --> 1:13:14.800 of the christ Church Shooter. There's all of these people 1:13:15.040 --> 1:13:18.240 who are like, yeah, authoritarian left or whatever, who are 1:13:18.280 --> 1:13:22.400 being like, oh, how can Americans condemn this attack when 1:13:22.840 --> 1:13:27.400 this guy is using as of imagery and there there's 1:13:27.400 --> 1:13:29.320 no telling how genuine they are with this, Like there's 1:13:29.360 --> 1:13:32.320 there's no telling if if they actually know what they're doing, 1:13:32.760 --> 1:13:34.280 or if they're just or if they're just being like 1:13:35.320 --> 1:13:37.840 if they're purposely misinformed, or what's going on. It's like 1:13:37.960 --> 1:13:42.240 he doesn't mind, it doesn't matter. But yeah, my my 1:13:43.840 --> 1:13:46.840 assumption with those folks is that they are doing it 1:13:47.520 --> 1:13:52.599 because if you are a competent, paid propagandist, you want 1:13:52.640 --> 1:13:55.080 to always be pushing the narrative in a way that 1:13:55.200 --> 1:13:57.920 furthers whatever it is your job to push. And if 1:13:58.000 --> 1:14:02.280 your job is connecting Ukraine to every bad thing that happens, 1:14:02.640 --> 1:14:04.960 and a mass shooting that has nothing to fucking do 1:14:05.360 --> 1:14:09.320 with with Ukraine or the Ukrainian government, um, if you 1:14:09.400 --> 1:14:11.720 can connect it back to them, then you're back in 1:14:11.800 --> 1:14:14.519 your wheelhouse, right, Because maybe you're not so strong talking 1:14:14.560 --> 1:14:16.760 about the fact that you and some of the people 1:14:16.800 --> 1:14:19.800 around you have been friendly with fucking Tucker Carlson. Uh 1:14:19.880 --> 1:14:21.760 and he pushes a similar narrative to the one this 1:14:21.840 --> 1:14:25.040 mass shooter used. Maybe that's uncomfortable. What is comfortable is saying, no, 1:14:25.240 --> 1:14:27.040 this guy who did this bad thing is tied to 1:14:27.680 --> 1:14:30.280 these other bad people who are tied to this group 1:14:30.400 --> 1:14:33.120 that my entire career is about attacking. That's a much 1:14:33.200 --> 1:14:36.200 stronger position to be in, you know, if you're you know, 1:14:36.360 --> 1:14:39.280 a propagandist. It's just like you see folks on the 1:14:39.400 --> 1:14:41.000 right who don't want to grapple with the fact that 1:14:41.080 --> 1:14:42.519 this was a right wing or who carried out a 1:14:42.600 --> 1:14:46.000 terrorist attack, um, based on an ideology that even motherfucking 1:14:46.080 --> 1:14:49.160 Ben Shapiro has pushed elements of. Um, you don't want 1:14:49.160 --> 1:14:50.920 to deal with that, So you call him a leftist 1:14:51.080 --> 1:14:53.040 because we saw the same thing with christ Turn he 1:14:53.040 --> 1:14:55.120 could Yeah, he made a couple of vague he's not 1:14:55.280 --> 1:14:57.720 a leftist. He repeatedly identified himself as right wing and 1:14:57.960 --> 1:15:02.920 as a fascist, as a Nazi, UM, as an ethno nationalist, UM. 1:15:03.360 --> 1:15:05.600 But he made like a couple of vague comments that 1:15:06.000 --> 1:15:07.800 they're taking out of context and being like, see, he 1:15:07.920 --> 1:15:10.400 was on the left, but she wanted to happen what 1:15:10.520 --> 1:15:12.280 he wanted to happen. That's why he put it in there. Right, 1:15:12.360 --> 1:15:14.840 It's like it is like it is all part of 1:15:14.840 --> 1:15:17.639 the bit, it's all this, it's it's it's it's all 1:15:17.720 --> 1:15:20.400 of this like like irony poisoned thing that they do 1:15:20.520 --> 1:15:23.439 on purpose to give any one a propaganda out or 1:15:23.479 --> 1:15:27.360 give anyone a propaganda. It's all yeah, if you'll remember 1:15:27.400 --> 1:15:29.840 it before, it's not it's not new, but it's frustrating yea. 1:15:30.040 --> 1:15:34.000 In the christ Church Manifesto, tarrant Um said that he'd 1:15:34.040 --> 1:15:37.680 been radicalized by Candice Owens, who's like a person who 1:15:37.720 --> 1:15:39.200 says a bunch of shitty, fucked up stuff. I don't 1:15:39.200 --> 1:15:41.120 like Candace Owens, but like had nothing to do with 1:15:41.200 --> 1:15:43.800 that guy's radicalization, right, Like, that's not that's not where 1:15:43.840 --> 1:15:46.479 he's fucking coming from. Um. But he did it because 1:15:46.520 --> 1:15:48.639 he wanted to, because because it's sucking. It's ship posting, 1:15:48.680 --> 1:15:50.240 you know, it's to muddy the water. It's to get 1:15:50.280 --> 1:15:55.360 people like it's too it's to reduce the ability of 1:15:55.560 --> 1:15:59.280 people trying to grapple with what has happened, to accurately 1:15:59.439 --> 1:16:02.840 see what has happened and accurately identify the problem and 1:16:02.960 --> 1:16:04.920 respond to A big, big motive for this stuff is 1:16:04.960 --> 1:16:08.680 to cause this kind of social and discourse chaos. Right. 1:16:08.760 --> 1:16:12.240 They want people, they want everyone to be confused, and 1:16:12.320 --> 1:16:15.200 they want everyone to be fighting each other and distance 1:16:15.360 --> 1:16:17.599 agreeing on basic terms, right, and the whole the whole 1:16:17.600 --> 1:16:20.519 point of this is to encourage gun control legislation, which 1:16:20.520 --> 1:16:22.120 we'll get the right match to cause people to be 1:16:22.200 --> 1:16:24.760 more willing to do mass shootings or to do a 1:16:24.840 --> 1:16:26.640 tax against government. Right, it's it's it's all part of 1:16:26.640 --> 1:16:32.800 the very basic accelerationist like talking points and tactics. So, 1:16:33.120 --> 1:16:35.360 and the confusion is not accidental, it's all it's it's 1:16:35.360 --> 1:16:38.560 all in if you, I think a good way to 1:16:38.600 --> 1:16:41.960 look at this, if you like fighter planes and helicopters 1:16:42.160 --> 1:16:46.120 in a combat zone will have a type of countermeasure 1:16:46.120 --> 1:16:48.280 they will launch if someone shooting a missile that's like 1:16:48.360 --> 1:16:51.000 a tracking missile, heat seeking or whatever at them. It's 1:16:51.040 --> 1:16:54.400 called chaff, and it basically it looks to the missile 1:16:54.800 --> 1:16:56.720 the same as a helicopter does. So you shoot a 1:16:56.760 --> 1:16:58.800 bunch of these out and the missile goes and hits 1:16:58.840 --> 1:17:00.800 something that's not the fucking hell copter, but to its 1:17:00.840 --> 1:17:03.240 sensors looks like a helicopter. That's what they're doing. They're 1:17:03.240 --> 1:17:06.840 shooting out chaff. They're getting you to like about box 1:17:06.920 --> 1:17:10.720 with shadows rather than potentially landing a blow against like 1:17:10.800 --> 1:17:15.400 the central problem. And the central problem is not an 1:17:15.439 --> 1:17:18.160 easy one to grapple with without all that stuff around it, right, 1:17:18.200 --> 1:17:22.680 because the the issue here is how the way in 1:17:22.800 --> 1:17:26.320 which the Internet enables radicalization, the way in which online 1:17:26.400 --> 1:17:32.040 communities are prone to radicalization, UM, the way in which, uh, 1:17:32.640 --> 1:17:37.240 the conservative media and aspects of like just basic American 1:17:37.400 --> 1:17:42.040 history play into this specific people who want to do 1:17:42.200 --> 1:17:44.880 violence in this way for this reason, UM, which is 1:17:44.920 --> 1:17:47.320 why the cops don't notice them even when they're on 1:17:47.360 --> 1:17:50.639 their radar, which is why that like the warning signs 1:17:50.720 --> 1:17:56.120 don't get spotted. Um. And the ways in which, I think, 1:17:56.200 --> 1:18:00.320 more than anything, the ways in which the Internet has 1:18:00.439 --> 1:18:04.800 created a perfect incubation chamber for radical violence. And that 1:18:04.920 --> 1:18:07.160 is one of the stories here right. UM. You know 1:18:07.280 --> 1:18:10.599 people are focusing on gun control, um, which this guy 1:18:10.680 --> 1:18:12.240 bought his gun in the state of New York, which 1:18:12.240 --> 1:18:14.760 has the most restrictive gun laws in the country. UM. 1:18:15.600 --> 1:18:18.040 Was more relevant even if you're on that end, is 1:18:18.479 --> 1:18:21.800 this guy was deeply involved in like tactical Reddit. This 1:18:21.880 --> 1:18:24.479 guy was heavily involved in in tactical videos and training 1:18:24.600 --> 1:18:27.439 videos and talking with other people about the best weapons, 1:18:27.479 --> 1:18:29.840 the best ways to use them. And if you watch 1:18:29.920 --> 1:18:34.360 the I don't watch the video. But he was competent, 1:18:34.960 --> 1:18:38.800 he engaged, competently, he did he maximized his ability to 1:18:38.920 --> 1:18:41.960 do damage he took out somebody, um with a gun 1:18:42.040 --> 1:18:45.200 who was attempting to stop him. Um, that ship, the 1:18:45.320 --> 1:18:49.080 stuff that he did to prepare tactically worked, and the 1:18:49.720 --> 1:18:53.160 kind of tactical chunks of of of reddit of the 1:18:53.240 --> 1:18:55.479 Internet which are not all right wing, but a hell 1:18:55.520 --> 1:18:56.640 of a lot of them are, and a hell of 1:18:56.680 --> 1:18:58.759 a lot of them have gone in very scary directions 1:18:58.800 --> 1:19:01.600 in the last couple of years. Um. Not only do 1:19:01.680 --> 1:19:04.400 I suspect contributed to his radicalization, but I can say 1:19:04.840 --> 1:19:08.880 certainly contributed to his ability to effectively kill people. Yeah. 1:19:08.880 --> 1:19:11.160 I mean he had like over five pages just on 1:19:11.360 --> 1:19:13.560 what helmet he picked out. He had pages on what 1:19:13.680 --> 1:19:15.760 socks he was wearing, which is not which is for 1:19:16.200 --> 1:19:19.280 multiple reasons. It's one to make the actual act more effective. 1:19:19.320 --> 1:19:22.439 It's two to inspire not like discourse like this, but 1:19:22.560 --> 1:19:25.479 also to to get people to replicate what he did. Right. 1:19:25.640 --> 1:19:27.840 It's crafting all of these symbols that people can be like, 1:19:28.000 --> 1:19:30.080 oh he picked out these socks. I mean, I'm gonna 1:19:30.240 --> 1:19:33.640 these socks. It's it's it's all this branding thing. Um, 1:19:33.840 --> 1:19:35.439 we should take we should take a break, and then 1:19:35.479 --> 1:19:37.640 I want to come back and talk about some me 1:19:37.720 --> 1:19:40.400 medical language stuff. You know who else can give you 1:19:40.479 --> 1:19:46.080 good advice on socks? Oh all right, here's ads okay. Um, 1:19:46.520 --> 1:19:49.559 I want to talk about some medical language stuff because 1:19:50.040 --> 1:19:53.200 this was all heavily riffing and I specifically use the 1:19:53.280 --> 1:19:56.120 term riffing um off of the christ Church shooting, uh, 1:19:56.640 --> 1:19:58.640 which itself was riffing with other stuff. Right, but he 1:19:59.080 --> 1:20:01.080 went so far. I mean, the the christ Church shooting 1:20:01.120 --> 1:20:04.040 was a copycat shooting of the Anders Breddock shooting, or 1:20:04.040 --> 1:20:06.320 at least descendant of whatever term you want to use. 1:20:06.400 --> 1:20:09.240 But that's what inspired the christ Church shooting. And it's 1:20:10.280 --> 1:20:13.840 I mean, he was for for the Buffalo shooting. He 1:20:14.000 --> 1:20:16.639 was testing on different live streaming platforms. He was doing 1:20:17.000 --> 1:20:19.160 all the stuff to craft a very specific image, and 1:20:19.400 --> 1:20:21.960 like images are very very very powerful. We've talked about 1:20:21.960 --> 1:20:23.840 like me magic before if we want to get silly 1:20:23.840 --> 1:20:27.120 about it. Um, but he was very very much involved 1:20:27.200 --> 1:20:31.400 in crafting these things that could be replicated visually. Um. 1:20:31.560 --> 1:20:33.559 That's that's why he wanted to live stream. It's so bad. 1:20:33.640 --> 1:20:36.160 It's that you just the same way, the same way 1:20:36.200 --> 1:20:39.799 of christ Church was And this is like really important 1:20:39.880 --> 1:20:42.200 for why we don't share this type of stuff and 1:20:42.280 --> 1:20:46.240 why we why we specifically clamped down on this, on this, 1:20:46.640 --> 1:20:49.799 on this style of propaganda, and why we really encourage 1:20:49.800 --> 1:20:51.439 people not to share it, not to look at it, 1:20:51.520 --> 1:20:54.160 not to do that stuff. Because he he does in 1:20:54.240 --> 1:20:56.599 the few parts of the manifest that that he did right, Um, 1:20:57.040 --> 1:20:59.000 he does. He did say like watching the christ Church 1:20:59.120 --> 1:21:02.040 video was very impactful for him, which I don't disagree with. 1:21:02.200 --> 1:21:06.400 I'm sure, I'm sure it was. He he did even 1:21:06.479 --> 1:21:09.240 and he did great links to recreate um. And this 1:21:09.400 --> 1:21:12.120 is why we people who are like researchers and people 1:21:12.120 --> 1:21:14.479 who kind of hand try to handle this kind of 1:21:14.520 --> 1:21:18.960 stuff um in like in their time on Earth, uh, 1:21:19.640 --> 1:21:22.439 are so particular about this. Like a a thing last year, 1:21:22.479 --> 1:21:24.200 like a year and a half ago, there was this 1:21:24.280 --> 1:21:27.880 film company based in New Zealand who wanted to make 1:21:27.920 --> 1:21:30.720 a christ Church film. Uh. And they want they were 1:21:30.720 --> 1:21:33.599 going to film a recreation of the shooting. But they said, like, oh, 1:21:33.720 --> 1:21:36.599 but it's too to show the horror and to show 1:21:36.680 --> 1:21:39.639 the impact on the victims. Doesn't fucking matter, it matter, 1:21:39.680 --> 1:21:42.439 It matters zero amount, because once you put that language 1:21:42.520 --> 1:21:46.559 into cinematography, you are giving them basically ammunition to help 1:21:46.680 --> 1:21:49.320 create propaganda and will get more more people killed. This 1:21:49.400 --> 1:21:50.840 is why the same thing we see the same thing 1:21:51.000 --> 1:21:54.920 on fucking um roadblocks, we see people recreate the christ 1:21:55.000 --> 1:21:57.360 Church shooting on roadblocks. There's actually a major problem, like 1:21:57.560 --> 1:22:00.280 a year ago, specifically, it was a huge problem people 1:22:00.360 --> 1:22:05.120 recreating the footage inside this game engine. And it's it's specifically, 1:22:05.280 --> 1:22:08.800 it's it's very it's a very powerful tool that they 1:22:08.880 --> 1:22:12.080 used to spread around. It's targeted specifically people ages twelve 1:22:12.120 --> 1:22:15.120 to eight teen. This this guy was eighteen years old. Um, 1:22:15.479 --> 1:22:18.559 it's he was heavily involved online gaming. He was really 1:22:18.600 --> 1:22:23.040 heavy Reddit user, specifically, um, he loved Discord. So it's 1:22:23.160 --> 1:22:25.559 these are the places where where it spreads even more 1:22:25.640 --> 1:22:28.439 so than a now to Yeah, and I would say 1:22:28.880 --> 1:22:30.559 we know. And that called him like a four chance 1:22:30.560 --> 1:22:33.040 shooter because number one he definitely was familiar with with 1:22:33.160 --> 1:22:36.080 Pole and number was there he announced his livestream there. 1:22:36.320 --> 1:22:38.120 I do agree with you read it was a bigger 1:22:38.439 --> 1:22:41.040 part of his radicalization. I suspect and in a lot 1:22:41.080 --> 1:22:44.280 of and Discord probably, and I suspect he did purposefully 1:22:44.400 --> 1:22:48.400 minimize the extent to which conversations on Discord were part 1:22:48.400 --> 1:22:51.479 of his radicalization journey. In particular, that would be my 1:22:51.600 --> 1:22:54.880 assumption at the moment, but for countering this type of rhetoric, 1:22:54.960 --> 1:22:57.160 in this type of propaganda, right, because they're they're trying 1:22:57.160 --> 1:22:59.240 to make themselves look cool, they're trying to make themselves 1:22:59.280 --> 1:23:01.559 look tactical. They're trying to look they're trying to make 1:23:01.600 --> 1:23:04.040 themselves they look like they're in a video game. They 1:23:04.080 --> 1:23:05.439 make it look like they're in a movie. Right, they're 1:23:05.439 --> 1:23:07.560 trying to be cinematic. He was, he was testing on 1:23:07.640 --> 1:23:10.519 different cameras. Um, he tested like a GoPro, he just said, 1:23:10.520 --> 1:23:12.519 he tested out his phone camera, right, trying to get 1:23:12.520 --> 1:23:15.320 this specific look. And we just we just talked about 1:23:15.360 --> 1:23:20.280 how he was tactically proficient in some ways, but in 1:23:20.400 --> 1:23:23.559 handling this type of thing. We have to when we're 1:23:23.600 --> 1:23:26.200 crafting counter stuff to make this, to make this thing 1:23:26.320 --> 1:23:29.600 less likely, we need to not even focus on that. 1:23:29.680 --> 1:23:32.320 We need to make them look stupid, make them look juvenile, 1:23:32.439 --> 1:23:35.120 make them look like they're pathetic, make them look like 1:23:35.200 --> 1:23:38.000 they're stupid and silly, like they're Larper's. That's one of 1:23:38.160 --> 1:23:42.120 the things that saved god knows how many lives. At 1:23:42.240 --> 1:23:44.400 kind of the high point of the eight Chance shootings 1:23:44.400 --> 1:23:47.479 in nineteen was that fucker in Hall, Germany, tried to 1:23:47.520 --> 1:23:50.920 carry one out and got the piss beat out of 1:23:51.000 --> 1:23:53.600 him by a dude at a mosque um and was 1:23:53.960 --> 1:23:56.479 photographed the next day in court just covered. It's like 1:23:56.680 --> 1:24:01.320 beat two ship um. That image probably save some lives. 1:24:01.840 --> 1:24:04.160 They want to be cool, they want to be mimic, 1:24:04.240 --> 1:24:06.519 they want to be spread around as a symbol. And 1:24:07.439 --> 1:24:11.599 we need, like culturally, need to. Yes, this is obviously 1:24:11.720 --> 1:24:14.000 very scarce, this is a very real threat for many 1:24:14.160 --> 1:24:16.800 for many people, many people of color, many black people, 1:24:16.880 --> 1:24:20.840 many many Muslims, people of different religions, Jewish people, queer people. 1:24:21.240 --> 1:24:24.600 But we need to when when specifically crafting rhetoric and 1:24:24.640 --> 1:24:28.879 propaganda against these things, we need to make them look pathetic, 1:24:29.040 --> 1:24:30.640 right that that that that's what it needs to be 1:24:30.720 --> 1:24:33.919 framed as, because if you make them look scary and competent, 1:24:34.360 --> 1:24:38.160 that's actually gonna make these things worse because they love that, 1:24:38.360 --> 1:24:40.920 right Like as if you film the Christ, if you 1:24:40.960 --> 1:24:44.000 do any kind of like movie about the Christ shooting, 1:24:44.000 --> 1:24:45.760 no matter how you shoot it, they're gonna love it. 1:24:46.120 --> 1:24:48.280 If you're shooting people in pain, they they want that. 1:24:48.400 --> 1:24:50.960 They want that. It's that's that's what they're looking for. 1:24:51.479 --> 1:24:54.479 You need to specifically frame this as these people larning 1:24:54.760 --> 1:24:58.320 and these people being pathetic and people being terminally online 1:24:58.920 --> 1:25:01.720 um and having bad social skills like you need you need, 1:25:01.800 --> 1:25:04.120 you need to frame it in this way that makes 1:25:04.200 --> 1:25:07.160 them look not desirable because their whole point is to 1:25:07.200 --> 1:25:12.400 craft is desirable and visually stunning propaganda. Um. And I think, yeah, 1:25:12.439 --> 1:25:15.080 that's that's that's I've been thinking about this for the 1:25:15.160 --> 1:25:19.000 past because it's just been so much. But like I 1:25:19.160 --> 1:25:21.800 identify these people, isn't the problem? Right? Like this guy 1:25:22.400 --> 1:25:24.840 he was he was talked to you by by counselors 1:25:24.960 --> 1:25:26.880 last year because they were for he was them to 1:25:26.920 --> 1:25:29.720 do a school shooting. Um, Like there was a lot 1:25:29.800 --> 1:25:31.840 of the red flags and stuff. And like he was 1:25:32.000 --> 1:25:33.559 he was taught, he was talked to you by people 1:25:33.600 --> 1:25:36.640 before this happened. Like he wasn't an unknown factor, He 1:25:36.800 --> 1:25:39.720 wasn't an unknown of the vector to make to make this, 1:25:39.960 --> 1:25:41.720 to make you know, to be this a person that 1:25:41.800 --> 1:25:46.200 can do this. But there's there's no way. People are 1:25:46.320 --> 1:25:49.760 very people are good at finding these people before they 1:25:49.800 --> 1:25:52.800 do it, but we're bad at actually stopping them from 1:25:52.840 --> 1:25:55.559 doing it once we found Once we find them, Uh, 1:25:55.720 --> 1:25:58.360 there's there's really no power to stop it um and 1:25:58.520 --> 1:26:02.000 interrupting any kind of radicals Asian pipeline. It's really hard, 1:26:02.600 --> 1:26:04.600 so it's more about laying the groundwork to make the 1:26:04.640 --> 1:26:08.560 pipeline look pathetic so it's harder to happen again. But 1:26:08.920 --> 1:26:13.240 always counting this stuff is frustrating because if there's a 1:26:13.240 --> 1:26:16.400 good strategy and wouldn't be here, be be deeply I 1:26:16.680 --> 1:26:20.360 want to move on to the tent in California, but 1:26:20.640 --> 1:26:22.320 at the at the end of this to close out, 1:26:23.040 --> 1:26:27.960 be deeply suspicious, if not outright contemptuous of anyone who 1:26:28.120 --> 1:26:31.519 posits a simple solution to these shootings, whether that solution 1:26:31.760 --> 1:26:35.760 is gun control, whether it's expanded police powers, whether it's 1:26:35.920 --> 1:26:39.080 fucking arming everybody so that they can shoot shooters, anyone 1:26:39.120 --> 1:26:42.040 who proposes a simple solution this, This is a deeply 1:26:42.160 --> 1:26:47.000 complicated problem, um, because we let a number of horrible, 1:26:47.080 --> 1:26:50.080 horrible obvious problems go on for way too long, and 1:26:50.600 --> 1:26:54.479 the solution to this will be painfully agonizing lee difficult 1:26:54.600 --> 1:26:57.680 and will take time, and there is there is not 1:26:57.960 --> 1:27:02.519 a simple, all encompassing way to deal with this. Um. 1:27:03.120 --> 1:27:05.200 One of the things that you can do right now 1:27:05.439 --> 1:27:08.080 to better prepare yourself to potentially deal with this problem 1:27:08.439 --> 1:27:11.240 is take a stop the bleed course, carry an iPad 1:27:11.320 --> 1:27:14.200 I fact and a gunshot wound kit um as often 1:27:14.280 --> 1:27:17.400 as possible. And that continues to be my best immediate 1:27:17.439 --> 1:27:22.040 advice to people, um, because that there's no downsides to 1:27:22.160 --> 1:27:24.840 doing that and it could and does save lives and 1:27:24.920 --> 1:27:27.800 other shootings. All right, let's move on in other dudes, 1:27:28.320 --> 1:27:34.000 in other news. The next shooting. Yeah, hooray, Yeah, Okay, 1:27:34.439 --> 1:27:39.840 this is a weird one, UM, and I think the 1:27:40.200 --> 1:27:43.400 thing we need to make clear of front is that 1:27:43.560 --> 1:27:47.960 this happened yesterday. Um a recording still yeah, a top 1:27:48.000 --> 1:27:55.360 of recording. Details are still emerging, and it's weird. There's 1:27:55.439 --> 1:27:57.840 a lot of potential to so so for people who 1:27:57.880 --> 1:28:03.679 don't know, Um, a Presbyterian church in California was attacked 1:28:03.880 --> 1:28:06.280 by a Chinese guy. This is this is a time 1:28:06.320 --> 1:28:13.160 when East Church, Um, it's mostly senior citizens. And okay, 1:28:13.160 --> 1:28:16.560 so there's there's a few important things up fronts that 1:28:16.600 --> 1:28:19.400 people should probably understand about. This one is that Okay, 1:28:19.560 --> 1:28:22.720 so Taiwan. Taiwan is ruled by military dictatorship. But for 1:28:22.880 --> 1:28:25.720 like basically the better part of of the post World 1:28:25.720 --> 1:28:28.280 War two period, it is ruled by military dictatorship run 1:28:28.320 --> 1:28:31.040 by the Nationalist Party of the CAMPT. The cam T 1:28:31.720 --> 1:28:36.479 is extraordinary in this period. It is extraordinarily violent. They 1:28:37.040 --> 1:28:40.240 they assassinate people all over the place. They kill people 1:28:40.280 --> 1:28:43.120 on American soil. They killed they trained death squads in 1:28:43.160 --> 1:28:47.439 Latin America, and you know, they're they're they're known for 1:28:47.520 --> 1:28:51.600 the sort of humanity communism, but eventually they're sort of 1:28:53.640 --> 1:28:57.120 toppled by revolution isn't quite the right word. But as 1:28:57.439 --> 1:28:59.400 you know, the CAMPT as a party is still around 1:28:59.400 --> 1:29:00.840 today and as one of the two sort of major 1:29:01.640 --> 1:29:05.840 like Towny's political parties. But they're not like the sort 1:29:05.840 --> 1:29:07.800 of desk they're not exactly the sort of des squad 1:29:07.840 --> 1:29:10.920 mafia party that they were through most of the twentieth century. 1:29:11.760 --> 1:29:15.880 Um the sort of the sort of progressive forces that 1:29:16.080 --> 1:29:19.759 work to overthrow the dictatorship. A lot of them coalesced 1:29:19.760 --> 1:29:23.080 into a party called the d d P. And one 1:29:23.160 --> 1:29:26.439 of the things about the d DP is, and there's 1:29:26.479 --> 1:29:28.519 a lot of sort of complicated Towny's political stuff here, 1:29:28.600 --> 1:29:31.160 but they are very very closely connect connected to the 1:29:31.200 --> 1:29:35.360 Presbyterian Church in a lot of ways. And this I 1:29:35.880 --> 1:29:39.200 don't know the specifics about this church, but there is 1:29:39.280 --> 1:29:41.439 there is a very strong connection between and then the 1:29:41.920 --> 1:29:47.040 d d P are Okay, pro independence is putting it 1:29:47.120 --> 1:29:49.400 too strongly. But if you're a pro independent, like you 1:29:49.600 --> 1:29:51.360 want to want to be an independent country and you 1:29:51.400 --> 1:29:55.920 don't want them to sort of like either continue, Well, okay, 1:29:57.280 --> 1:30:00.640 this is the problem with town these politics. It's enormously convoluted. Uh, 1:30:01.840 --> 1:30:04.320 there's a lot of stuff going on something at any time, 1:30:04.400 --> 1:30:06.240 and these people are gonna get mad at you if 1:30:06.240 --> 1:30:09.680 the supplications they're making. But yeah, the short version of 1:30:09.800 --> 1:30:15.320 the story is that the sort of anti CCP pro 1:30:15.520 --> 1:30:19.639 independence e forces are and the sort of like progressive 1:30:19.680 --> 1:30:21.519 movement is sort of lumped into the d DP and 1:30:21.760 --> 1:30:25.559 those are the people who are getting shot like because yeah, 1:30:25.600 --> 1:30:28.440 because again there's there's a very strong connection between Restbyterian 1:30:28.560 --> 1:30:33.320 Church and the p UM and the KMT who again, 1:30:33.960 --> 1:30:36.519 I mean, okay, they've had an extremely complicated relationship with 1:30:36.560 --> 1:30:41.360 the Communist Party over the last hundred years. It's incredibly baffling. 1:30:41.520 --> 1:30:46.559 But they've basically swung around towards being more favorable to China. 1:30:47.800 --> 1:30:50.439 And there are there are some fact extremist factions of 1:30:50.520 --> 1:30:54.360 it that are that support unific like just unification Um, 1:30:55.400 --> 1:30:59.720 what seems to have happened here is okay, So this 1:31:00.120 --> 1:31:05.120 the shooters families seems to have been like deported from 1:31:05.200 --> 1:31:10.600 China to Taiwan, and he like did not like it 1:31:11.600 --> 1:31:15.680 in Taiwan. And and this is where it starts to 1:31:15.720 --> 1:31:19.400 get very murky. Um. The police statement we have says 1:31:19.520 --> 1:31:21.680 that you know, it's about sort of racial like it's 1:31:21.720 --> 1:31:25.200 it's it's it's an anti Taiwanese animus, but that can 1:31:25.280 --> 1:31:29.600 mean a lot of things. And yeah, and then this 1:31:29.840 --> 1:31:32.200 this again, I keep saying it's murky, and it's because 1:31:32.240 --> 1:31:35.200 it's it's genuinely murky. There's a chance that this is 1:31:35.240 --> 1:31:36.679 one of one of the things that's been happening since 1:31:36.720 --> 1:31:40.719 the Hong Kong protests. He is a solidification in mainland 1:31:40.840 --> 1:31:43.639 China sort of anti of anti Tiwanese sentiment has sort 1:31:43.680 --> 1:31:45.760 of lumped in in this sort of like nationalist anti 1:31:45.800 --> 1:31:48.160 Hong Kong thing. There was there was a hardening of 1:31:48.240 --> 1:31:54.800 rhetoric against Taiwan, but also there's a lot of there's 1:31:54.800 --> 1:31:58.559 a lot of people in Taiwan, like like especially canti 1:31:58.640 --> 1:32:02.000 hardliners on the hard right who like really really really 1:32:02.080 --> 1:32:06.920 intensely hate like the sort of like the sort of progressive, 1:32:07.640 --> 1:32:11.720 anti CCP, pro independence people. And you know, and this 1:32:11.840 --> 1:32:15.640 is something we don't we don't know what his affiliation is. 1:32:16.160 --> 1:32:18.720 He was like like he was like into like his sixties, right, yeah, 1:32:18.800 --> 1:32:20.240 well and and this is this, this is this is 1:32:20.280 --> 1:32:21.920 weird because there's a lot of things that that could 1:32:21.960 --> 1:32:23.400 be true about this because of how old he is, 1:32:23.520 --> 1:32:26.680 like again, you know, I mean he is around when 1:32:26.800 --> 1:32:29.439 the KMT is is straight up with Deska Party, right, 1:32:30.479 --> 1:32:34.280 so it could be that it could be she's sort 1:32:34.320 --> 1:32:40.800 of like independently radicalized. There's been some like rumors might 1:32:40.840 --> 1:32:44.160 be too weak of a word, but there there there 1:32:44.200 --> 1:32:48.000 have been some kind of sketchy reporting that like his 1:32:48.160 --> 1:32:50.240 ex was leaving for Taiwan and that that may have 1:32:50.320 --> 1:32:55.479 played a part in it. But you know, violence between 1:32:55.640 --> 1:32:58.080 the KMT and people who don't like the KMT is 1:32:58.680 --> 1:33:01.640 a the that there wasn't a There was a very 1:33:01.720 --> 1:33:04.160 large amount of in the US for a lot of reasons. 1:33:04.240 --> 1:33:06.559 And even though the CAMT is sort of like I mean, 1:33:06.600 --> 1:33:10.640 the their alignment that China has like flipped in the 1:33:10.680 --> 1:33:15.439 past about forty years, I I don't know, I'm really 1:33:15.640 --> 1:33:18.240 really desperately hoping that that's this isn't going to set 1:33:18.280 --> 1:33:21.240 off because I mean there's already been a lot of 1:33:21.360 --> 1:33:24.160 especially around Hong Kong, there's been a lot of physical violence, 1:33:24.240 --> 1:33:28.479 like people attack each other at protests about between for example, 1:33:28.479 --> 1:33:30.840 people who's prot their Hong Kong protests and Chinese like 1:33:30.960 --> 1:33:39.519 CCP nationalists. But this is something different, very weird, very 1:33:39.560 --> 1:33:41.160 embedded in the time in these context and I don't 1:33:41.160 --> 1:33:45.360 think we fully understand what's going on here. Um, the 1:33:45.439 --> 1:33:47.519 everything again is like this guy like he lived in 1:33:47.560 --> 1:33:50.960 times one, like he was speaking Taiwanese, like when when 1:33:51.000 --> 1:33:52.960 he was essentially like going into this church to infiltrate 1:33:52.960 --> 1:33:55.840 before we shot everyone. So like he this isn't like this. 1:33:56.320 --> 1:33:58.040 This this is and I think people are reporting it 1:33:58.160 --> 1:34:00.280 like this because they don't know what's going on. But 1:34:00.360 --> 1:34:02.280 like this, this isn't a case of like a guy 1:34:02.479 --> 1:34:05.600 who is from mainland China who like decided that he 1:34:05.640 --> 1:34:07.280 hated to time when these people like this, he he 1:34:07.520 --> 1:34:10.400 was there, he like he speaks, he speaks time when 1:34:10.400 --> 1:34:15.479 he's he like understands the time when he's political situation 1:34:15.920 --> 1:34:18.080 very in depth, which presumably is why he targeted the 1:34:18.120 --> 1:34:24.559 specific church. But other than that, it's it's the motives 1:34:24.600 --> 1:34:27.920 are still kind of murky. And this is the other 1:34:27.960 --> 1:34:30.680 problem with it, which is that like the sheriff's like 1:34:31.240 --> 1:34:35.240 there's no way that the sheriffs have any idea what 1:34:35.400 --> 1:34:37.880 they're looking at, like that they're apparently reading his personal notes, 1:34:37.960 --> 1:34:41.720 and it's like, I don't trust their analysis of it. 1:34:42.000 --> 1:34:46.080 Good lord, no, yeah, like these if you weren't here, 1:34:46.120 --> 1:34:48.479 we would have to find someone else who understands that 1:34:48.840 --> 1:34:51.000 conflict in order to talk about it. I don't feel 1:34:51.040 --> 1:34:54.519 comfortable like trying to figure out or analyze that guy's notes. 1:34:54.520 --> 1:34:58.360 I sure as ship don't trust some fucking sheriff's like, yeah, 1:34:58.439 --> 1:35:04.760 this I don't know, And I think that that's I 1:35:04.760 --> 1:35:06.280 don't know. I will say like this, I think was 1:35:06.320 --> 1:35:09.559 like the worst possible scenario for what that shooting is about, 1:35:09.720 --> 1:35:13.719 because this is a kind of this is a kind 1:35:13.800 --> 1:35:20.519 of violence that was really intense, like right after World 1:35:20.560 --> 1:35:23.320 War Two and sort of like and you know, there 1:35:23.360 --> 1:35:25.920 there's been periods where like, yeah, I mean people have 1:35:26.000 --> 1:35:29.000 been like people have gotten killed here, but it hasn't 1:35:30.320 --> 1:35:35.040 been that violent in a long time. And I don't know, 1:35:35.120 --> 1:35:38.120 I'm hoping this is just one guy who had a 1:35:38.160 --> 1:35:42.519 particular grievance who I don't know, like was it was 1:35:42.640 --> 1:35:44.600 pushed by sort of external factors. But if this is 1:35:44.640 --> 1:35:48.080 a sign of like if this is a sign of 1:35:48.160 --> 1:35:52.120 sort of anti Tiwanese like nationally, well, okay, so there's 1:35:52.160 --> 1:35:54.439 one other thing that that we need to talk about 1:35:54.760 --> 1:35:59.400 because that's unclear because there's two kinds of potential right 1:35:59.439 --> 1:36:01.639 when Chinese actually lizab met play here, and it's unclear 1:36:01.680 --> 1:36:05.599 which one is happening because there are there are people 1:36:05.640 --> 1:36:08.640 who are right wing Chinese nationalists who are like pro 1:36:08.760 --> 1:36:12.160 CCP right, but there's also a kind of like a 1:36:12.280 --> 1:36:16.280 kind of like it shifted, but there's also like a 1:36:16.840 --> 1:36:21.280 a like a KMG nationalist based right wing Chinese nationalism 1:36:21.360 --> 1:36:24.320 which favors sort of like reunification with China, but is 1:36:24.560 --> 1:36:27.800 is not the same thing as as the sort of 1:36:27.880 --> 1:36:31.800 mainland nationalism and has its own particular, like very local 1:36:31.840 --> 1:36:35.519 political grudges like with with the d DP and with 1:36:35.760 --> 1:36:42.080 the sort of like progressive movements in time one and 1:36:43.240 --> 1:36:45.840 I don't know and anything beyond that is kind of 1:36:46.080 --> 1:36:47.760 like trying to figure out which one it is, like 1:36:47.880 --> 1:36:50.280 we just don't know unless the police, unless the police 1:36:50.280 --> 1:36:53.760 actually decide to like show us this guy's notes or 1:36:54.200 --> 1:36:57.760 like give us recordings of what he's been saying. Uh, 1:36:57.960 --> 1:37:00.360 we're not gonna know. And maybe maybe by the time 1:37:00.400 --> 1:37:03.000 this is out, like they will be more stuff. But 1:37:03.640 --> 1:37:09.000 right now it's very muddled, very bad. The fact that 1:37:09.040 --> 1:37:12.000 this guy also I think was an American citizen but 1:37:12.200 --> 1:37:18.240 was born in China has gotten every like even even 1:37:18.280 --> 1:37:23.080 the Chinese media outlets are saying extremely weird stuff because 1:37:23.080 --> 1:37:26.439 they're confused by it. So it is a it is 1:37:26.479 --> 1:37:34.599 a muddled is a muddled mess, I mean, and everything 1:37:34.640 --> 1:37:36.639 about this last weekend's been uddled. There's been so many 1:37:36.680 --> 1:37:40.959 different mass shootings this weekend, there's been people being paranoid 1:37:41.040 --> 1:37:45.519 about copycat mass shootings. And now yesterday there was reporting 1:37:46.200 --> 1:37:50.680 that a gunman entered a church in Buffalo. Um. That 1:37:50.920 --> 1:37:56.000 was not actually true. It's someone someone in the church yelled, um, 1:37:56.760 --> 1:38:00.200 like there's a gunman or something or like or like 1:38:00.439 --> 1:38:02.639 get the gun down or something, um, and it caused 1:38:02.680 --> 1:38:05.600 people to create this this kind of rumor, but that 1:38:05.800 --> 1:38:07.400 there wasn't actually someone with a gun. It was it 1:38:07.520 --> 1:38:10.640 was this someone was like reacting to the sermon that 1:38:10.760 --> 1:38:14.400 was that that was being had. Um. But yeah, everyone's 1:38:14.439 --> 1:38:17.599 been super paranoid about every stuff and all this kind 1:38:17.640 --> 1:38:20.280 of stuff as as they should be. So sorting through 1:38:21.520 --> 1:38:24.880 sorting through all this stuff is very complicated and uh, 1:38:25.000 --> 1:38:27.920 not a great time because it's not it's not fun um, 1:38:27.960 --> 1:38:31.160 and we shouldn't have to do it, but it sucks. 1:38:32.160 --> 1:38:34.599 Do you think it's also worth noting that the police 1:38:34.640 --> 1:38:38.080 did not stop uh, I know, specifically they did not 1:38:38.160 --> 1:38:43.000 stop the one in the church, the past pastor, a 1:38:43.080 --> 1:38:48.040 pastor hit the hit him with a hit him chair, 1:38:49.040 --> 1:38:51.280 and then they hog tied him with an extension toward 1:38:51.320 --> 1:38:55.519 and then the police came, which is so um. I'm 1:38:55.560 --> 1:38:57.760 sorry they were ever in that position. They should never 1:38:57.840 --> 1:38:59.960 have to be in that position, but it's turned out 1:39:00.200 --> 1:39:03.880 more and more people are having to do because it's 1:39:03.960 --> 1:39:05.960 not also the first time that a mass shooter has 1:39:05.960 --> 1:39:07.720 been stopped by someone hitting them with a chair. If 1:39:07.720 --> 1:39:11.240 I'm not mistaken, that's how the Gifford shooter was stopped eventually, 1:39:11.400 --> 1:39:13.160 or part of how he was stopped to somebody fucking 1:39:13.200 --> 1:39:17.280 decked him with a chair. Yeah, it's it's really useful 1:39:17.320 --> 1:39:21.479 to have something beyond just your limbs. If someone is 1:39:21.520 --> 1:39:24.559 trying to shoot you with a gun, ideally you get 1:39:24.600 --> 1:39:26.880 away but if you can't get away, trying to hit 1:39:26.920 --> 1:39:29.800 them in the face with something heavy is certainly a 1:39:30.040 --> 1:39:36.320 choice that has saved a number of people's lives. God what, 1:39:36.920 --> 1:39:40.360 what an absolutely dogshit country. It's not a great time. 1:39:40.400 --> 1:39:43.519 And when I you know, I noted earlier anyone trying 1:39:43.560 --> 1:39:45.720 to sell you like simple solutions, and I mentioned gun 1:39:45.760 --> 1:39:47.200 control on that, which is not to say that like 1:39:47.479 --> 1:39:51.680 the outrageously easy, how how ridiculously easy it is to 1:39:51.720 --> 1:39:53.559 get any kind of gun in this country. Obviously that's 1:39:53.560 --> 1:39:58.600 a factor in these shootings. My my um hesitance to 1:39:58.640 --> 1:40:00.800 take gun control as a if you'll forgive the term 1:40:00.840 --> 1:40:02.800 magic bullet to fix any of this is number one, 1:40:03.080 --> 1:40:05.960 the sheer number of guns that are already propagated. Number two, 1:40:06.040 --> 1:40:08.639 the fact that a lot of gun control measures boiled 1:40:08.640 --> 1:40:10.599 down to making it harder for poor people to get guns, 1:40:10.640 --> 1:40:12.880 and neither of these shootings seem to have been poor 1:40:12.920 --> 1:40:17.479 people shooting up um folks. And uh just also the 1:40:17.560 --> 1:40:20.920 fact that while some states are capable of passing additional 1:40:20.960 --> 1:40:24.320 gun control. Number one, New York's basically done everything it's 1:40:24.360 --> 1:40:29.800 constitutional to do are e restricting gun ownership um and federally, 1:40:30.400 --> 1:40:34.120 Biden and their Dems can't protect Roe v. Wade. There's 1:40:34.280 --> 1:40:37.840 sure a ship not gonna pass any federal people want 1:40:37.880 --> 1:40:40.360 as well, Like they're specifically doing this to get this 1:40:40.439 --> 1:40:44.080 stuff started so that it increases plays. Whether or not 1:40:44.720 --> 1:40:47.160 to agree with my fundamental claim, you don't have to. 1:40:47.880 --> 1:40:50.920 You can believe that if gun control were to be passed, 1:40:51.040 --> 1:40:53.840 it could be the solution, but it's not gonna be. 1:40:54.320 --> 1:40:58.000 And so like as as regards those of us trying 1:40:58.040 --> 1:41:00.880 to survive, um, we have have to look in other 1:41:00.960 --> 1:41:03.479 directions because you're not going to get an assault weapon 1:41:03.520 --> 1:41:07.920 span it's just not happening. Yeah, I mean the one 1:41:08.000 --> 1:41:11.479 good I don't I don't say good thing. But it 1:41:11.600 --> 1:41:16.560 has been nice to see people slowly uh dropping the 1:41:16.720 --> 1:41:20.559 whole like load wolf terminology, that is a positive development 1:41:20.560 --> 1:41:22.680 because these are not not a load wolf. It's it's 1:41:22.720 --> 1:41:25.400 part of a very it's part of an intentional effort 1:41:25.520 --> 1:41:28.640 to cause these things to happen. Part the groups may 1:41:28.680 --> 1:41:32.080 be decentralized, but they are not anything they are but 1:41:32.200 --> 1:41:36.240 they Yeah, they are decentralized in acephalis, but they are deeply, 1:41:36.840 --> 1:41:41.600 deeply sophisticated and connected, just not in a way you 1:41:41.680 --> 1:41:45.640 can drone strike easily. Well, yeah, and I think I 1:41:46.200 --> 1:41:53.080 would have some target suggestions anyway, get knifefac, do stop, 1:41:55.520 --> 1:41:58.280 and don't don't feed into their propaganda in the way 1:41:58.920 --> 1:42:09.799 their propaganda um organized with folks in your neighborhood. Yeah, okay, 1:42:10.640 --> 1:42:16.680 well kids, adults, boys and girls, and individuals of non 1:42:16.800 --> 1:42:20.880 binary or other gender identities. Uh. Cats who happened to 1:42:20.920 --> 1:42:25.559 be listening in um Airwolf the helicopter if you're listening 1:42:25.600 --> 1:42:31.120 in everybody, every sentient creature listening. You know, I do 1:42:31.280 --> 1:42:35.360 believe that things can get better. So part of that 1:42:35.840 --> 1:42:40.960 is not letting the crimes that these the things that 1:42:41.040 --> 1:42:43.360 these people do, Like, part of the purpose of an 1:42:43.360 --> 1:42:47.320 attack like this is to make people feel hopeless and overwhelmed. 1:42:47.840 --> 1:42:51.240 It's to blackpill you, you know, to to to utilize 1:42:51.280 --> 1:42:56.040 some of their terminology. So the way to fight against 1:42:56.120 --> 1:42:59.479 it is, among other things, if you're talking about immediate 1:42:59.560 --> 1:43:03.200 things you can and do, go out and do something 1:43:03.320 --> 1:43:06.160 nice to help people. Yeah, and you know, I would 1:43:06.160 --> 1:43:08.719 say like as as a sort of like one brief 1:43:08.800 --> 1:43:10.880 last note, like, yeah, like in Taiwan, they overtow the 1:43:10.880 --> 1:43:13.679 dictatorship and oh hey, it turns out people stop getting 1:43:13.680 --> 1:43:17.920 assassinated by the knteen American soil. So, you know, over 1:43:18.040 --> 1:43:20.280 overthrow your governments, and you too can make peace with 1:43:20.320 --> 1:43:25.640 your enemies. Yeah, overthrow your government, overthrow another government. You know, 1:43:25.840 --> 1:43:43.439 it's all good. It's all good baby. Hello everyone, welcome 1:43:43.479 --> 1:43:45.720 to It could happen here at the podcast about things 1:43:45.800 --> 1:43:49.320 falling apart and sometimes have you come put them back together. 1:43:50.280 --> 1:43:55.360 Today it's me Garrison, Chris, our producer, Sophie and Uh. 1:43:55.439 --> 1:43:59.400 Andrew joins us. Once again. I love that guy. Oh 1:43:59.479 --> 1:44:05.600 me too, me too, Hi everyone us another episode of 1:44:06.280 --> 1:44:10.880 Andrew talking about whatever he feels like talking about. Okay, 1:44:13.160 --> 1:44:16.120 today's episode, Um, I am happy to announce that I 1:44:16.320 --> 1:44:25.240 finally finally finished Don't Have Everything by gradually. It took 1:44:25.439 --> 1:44:27.599 it took a while, you know, there was some points 1:44:27.640 --> 1:44:29.479 in time, some weeks it just went by. Why I 1:44:29.479 --> 1:44:32.920 didn't even like make a dent um. You know, life 1:44:32.960 --> 1:44:35.200 got in the way and stuff. But I finally finally 1:44:35.240 --> 1:44:37.960 finished it and I get to talk about it and say, 1:44:38.600 --> 1:44:41.679 you know, with some authority that I've read Don't Have Everything. 1:44:42.680 --> 1:44:46.640 You know, Yeah, it's a very dense book, but it 1:44:46.880 --> 1:44:49.120 was worth it. I mean, there are some critiques that 1:44:49.240 --> 1:44:54.439 I've been taking into by some authors in the field. UM, 1:44:54.600 --> 1:44:56.679 And so I highly reco when people look for critiques 1:44:56.720 --> 1:44:59.160 as well, not just you know, taking it and consuming 1:44:59.200 --> 1:45:03.840 who will sale, but in addition to those critiques like 1:45:03.960 --> 1:45:07.599 on with those critiques, um, such as by people like um, 1:45:07.720 --> 1:45:10.160 what is politics on YouTube? And also a couple of 1:45:10.160 --> 1:45:12.479 academic writers as well, I think you could get a 1:45:12.520 --> 1:45:15.599 lot out of the book, and I certainly have. Yeah, 1:45:15.640 --> 1:45:16.800 this is it. This is a this is a very 1:45:16.840 --> 1:45:18.559 good book. And I'm excited to talk about it because 1:45:18.560 --> 1:45:22.519 I read it like it was a while ago now 1:45:23.720 --> 1:45:30.120 like it's like five months ago or something. Didn't talk 1:45:30.160 --> 1:45:35.240 about it. I've been like waiting for I've been trying. 1:45:35.240 --> 1:45:37.960 I've been I've been picking up bits and pieces of it, 1:45:38.120 --> 1:45:41.880 but unfortunately my book list to get through is way 1:45:41.920 --> 1:45:44.120 too long at the moment, so I've not been able 1:45:44.160 --> 1:45:48.840 to actually dive fully into the text itself. Um. But 1:45:49.000 --> 1:45:51.639 it is definitely on my lest after I get through 1:45:51.720 --> 1:45:55.960 my twenty other books I need to read for my job. Yeah, 1:45:56.000 --> 1:45:58.240 it's a lot, it's a lot. Um. At least we 1:45:58.320 --> 1:46:00.599 got to read books for a living. It was something 1:46:00.600 --> 1:46:05.479 adjacent to that. Um. And I mean it is a 1:46:05.640 --> 1:46:08.599 difficult book. I would say to like discussing its entirety, 1:46:08.640 --> 1:46:11.599 and I didn't. I don't tend to not to read 1:46:11.600 --> 1:46:14.120 any parator or anything, Chris, but I don't tend to 1:46:14.240 --> 1:46:16.760 talk about the entire book, you know, because that's like 1:46:17.720 --> 1:46:21.639 several hundred pages. Yeah, you know, and each chapter covers 1:46:21.720 --> 1:46:24.479 like so so much UM. But I actually wanted to 1:46:24.560 --> 1:46:29.799 talk about chapter four in particular, UM, where the authors 1:46:30.360 --> 1:46:35.960 explore the concept and the origins in a sense of cultures, UM. 1:46:36.040 --> 1:46:40.000 In one particular segment, I mean a lot of mysteries 1:46:40.120 --> 1:46:44.640 of the upper pyliarithic that we don't know, right, I mean, 1:46:44.800 --> 1:46:48.439 that's why the mysteries, um. But you know, we've come 1:46:48.479 --> 1:46:50.240 to learn, you know, through the course of the book 1:46:50.360 --> 1:46:53.800 that this assumption that everything was just these small tight 1:46:53.880 --> 1:46:56.760 nic bands, um, and that was just the entirety of 1:46:56.880 --> 1:47:01.040 the human social arrangement into the States. You know, at 1:47:01.120 --> 1:47:04.240 least it's new to the layman to realize that this 1:47:04.439 --> 1:47:07.559 is not necessarily the case. You know, UM, that there 1:47:07.720 --> 1:47:14.640 is a lot more political structural, you know, dibuicity in 1:47:14.760 --> 1:47:19.639 that time period. We don't know at that point in time, 1:47:19.680 --> 1:47:22.360 you know, what languages pe who were speaking. You know, 1:47:22.520 --> 1:47:25.360 of course linguists have been able to like reconstruct like 1:47:26.000 --> 1:47:29.600 proto languages and stuff. And I mean, I'm just a 1:47:29.680 --> 1:47:32.280 hobby Linquist, just like I'm a hobby everything else. But 1:47:32.400 --> 1:47:34.960 I think it's been really cool to see how linguish 1:47:35.000 --> 1:47:36.439 is just able to do that. Like, can we just 1:47:36.479 --> 1:47:39.519 take a second to realize that, like linguists able to 1:47:39.600 --> 1:47:42.599 take scraps of existing languages and just kind of piece 1:47:42.680 --> 1:47:45.000 them together to get a sense of like how they're related, 1:47:45.120 --> 1:47:49.920 Like how do you all do that? Um? But there's 1:47:49.920 --> 1:47:51.400 a lot we don't know, right, We don't know about 1:47:51.400 --> 1:47:53.880 their language and know about their myths, you know, um, 1:47:54.520 --> 1:47:58.320 their conceptions of the soul, what their favorite foods were, 1:47:58.880 --> 1:48:00.720 even know they ate, but we don't know what like 1:48:01.680 --> 1:48:05.200 Joe Skeleton thoughts about his breakfast that morning. But what 1:48:05.320 --> 1:48:07.439 we do know is that, you know, from the Swiss 1:48:07.479 --> 1:48:11.120 Alps to out Mongolia in the Upper Polithic people were 1:48:11.280 --> 1:48:14.760 using a lot of the same tools, um, playing a 1:48:14.800 --> 1:48:22.200 lot of similar musical instruments, carving similar rather interesting female figurines, um, 1:48:22.320 --> 1:48:27.960 wearing similar ornaments, and conducting similar funeral rites. And there's 1:48:28.000 --> 1:48:32.400 also reason to believe that people actually traveled a lot 1:48:32.560 --> 1:48:35.439 more than we would expect them to do, and tra 1:48:35.520 --> 1:48:39.479 actually traveled longer distances than we would expect for that 1:48:39.560 --> 1:48:41.880 time period. I mean we don't have they didn't have 1:48:42.120 --> 1:48:46.960 rather you know, like cars or or chariots or trains 1:48:47.240 --> 1:48:50.920 or planes or anything like that. So to think that 1:48:52.360 --> 1:48:57.120 these long distance um journeys were occurring, you know, places 1:48:57.200 --> 1:49:00.720 like Australia or in like North America is just really 1:49:00.760 --> 1:49:02.960 interesting to think about. Yeah, I was one of your 1:49:03.000 --> 1:49:04.280 fing talked about like one of the things I thought 1:49:04.320 --> 1:49:09.920 was really interesting about this is the way that they 1:49:09.960 --> 1:49:13.559 talk about culture areas where you have these like, yeah, 1:49:14.200 --> 1:49:17.519 you have these like very large I mean like almost 1:49:17.560 --> 1:49:20.320 like like half continent sized areas where people are speaking 1:49:20.320 --> 1:49:23.120 similar languages, like the same language, and you have these 1:49:23.200 --> 1:49:27.720 like you have like these clan structures that are like 1:49:28.560 --> 1:49:30.200 you know, you you you you can go from like 1:49:31.160 --> 1:49:34.240 and go from like Missouri, and you can end up 1:49:34.240 --> 1:49:37.080 in like Mississippi, and you'll be in a place where 1:49:37.200 --> 1:49:39.000 they still have like you know, the sort of like 1:49:39.080 --> 1:49:42.680 four basic like plan lodges are still the same, and 1:49:42.720 --> 1:49:45.880 you'll beat people who are like from your clan. And 1:49:46.520 --> 1:49:49.599 he has this really interesting line about how like sort 1:49:49.640 --> 1:49:53.519 of kind of intuitively like the world's gotten like the world, 1:49:53.680 --> 1:49:56.080 like even even when there was like people spread over 1:49:56.160 --> 1:49:59.439 geographic distance, like the world sort of got larger as 1:49:59.479 --> 1:50:01.800 technology you progress, and not sort of like smaller in 1:50:01.880 --> 1:50:04.559 the way that people sort of think about it, because 1:50:06.200 --> 1:50:10.599 like I don't know, instead of there being these sort 1:50:10.600 --> 1:50:14.200 of like mega like culture areas, you can go from 1:50:14.280 --> 1:50:17.000 one place to another and you'll there'll be people who 1:50:17.040 --> 1:50:19.120 speak the same language and you can sort of slot 1:50:19.240 --> 1:50:22.439 into the like systems that are there. You suddenly have 1:50:22.520 --> 1:50:28.280 this incredible diversity of stuff, right right, So I mean 1:50:29.280 --> 1:50:32.519 specific to like North America. You know, um, we had 1:50:32.520 --> 1:50:36.960 all these different clan structures. We usually tend to think of, um, 1:50:37.800 --> 1:50:41.560 you know, these groups says and you know, especially like 1:50:41.720 --> 1:50:44.479 your immediate relations with people that you know, it's like 1:50:44.760 --> 1:50:50.439 clue skin family, that kind of thing. Um. But there's actually, 1:50:51.720 --> 1:50:54.439 at least in some studies of hunt together as, there's 1:50:54.479 --> 1:50:59.280 some suggestion that their composition can be quite cosmopolitan. So, 1:50:59.360 --> 1:51:03.920 you know, you have these groups and biological relations might 1:51:03.960 --> 1:51:06.559 only make up a small percentage of like total membership. 1:51:07.360 --> 1:51:10.479 They're actually drawn from a wide pool of individuals of 1:51:10.560 --> 1:51:13.519 a larger stretch of area, and you know, not all 1:51:13.520 --> 1:51:17.280 of them even speak necessarily the same first language. UM. 1:51:17.400 --> 1:51:21.439 This is YouTuber Indigenous NICs YouTuber named twin Rabbit, and 1:51:21.680 --> 1:51:23.799 he had this excellent, excellent video. I need to rewatch 1:51:23.880 --> 1:51:28.639 it on planes sign language, which is this um method 1:51:28.680 --> 1:51:35.080 of communication that Indigenous Americans UM used across you know, 1:51:35.160 --> 1:51:40.479 the plans to conduct trade and diplomacy and discussions even 1:51:40.520 --> 1:51:46.560 if they didn't share the same language. Um. In Aboriginal Australia, 1:51:47.160 --> 1:51:50.920 people were able to travel halfway across the continent, moving 1:51:50.920 --> 1:51:55.160 across people who spoke entirely different languages and still find 1:51:55.360 --> 1:51:59.439 you know, camps that had people of you know, their 1:51:59.520 --> 1:52:03.280 same to atomic mighty you know, and those people were 1:52:03.320 --> 1:52:06.000 we treated like their brothers and sisters, you know, so 1:52:06.120 --> 1:52:09.479 like no hanky panky, but you know they had this 1:52:10.040 --> 1:52:18.519 this you know, cross continental bond of like hospitality. From 1:52:18.560 --> 1:52:21.519 the Great Lakes you know, to Louisiana Bayous, you can 1:52:21.600 --> 1:52:26.759 find settlements of people speaking entirely, entirely separate languages, unrelated 1:52:26.800 --> 1:52:29.640 to their own. And yet still you will find you know, 1:52:30.160 --> 1:52:33.960 bear clans or elk clans or beaver clans that we're 1:52:34.000 --> 1:52:37.800 obliged to host and feed them, you know. UM, And 1:52:37.880 --> 1:52:40.479 we could only really guess as to like what kind 1:52:40.520 --> 1:52:43.280 of systems were like and how those systems might have 1:52:43.400 --> 1:52:46.280 worked for eight years ago, you know, in the upper pyioithic. 1:52:46.400 --> 1:52:50.160 But what we do see with the you know, similarities 1:52:50.200 --> 1:52:55.320 and material um uniformities and stuff of these different tools 1:52:55.400 --> 1:52:58.360 and musical instruments and stuff suggests that there might be 1:52:59.400 --> 1:53:02.400 a bit of a similar system in place at that time. 1:53:03.360 --> 1:53:09.200 Roughly around like twelve BC, we start seeing like new pottery, 1:53:09.760 --> 1:53:12.400 you know, getting dropped. We started to see the outlines 1:53:12.600 --> 1:53:18.759 of more specific cultures and specific areas, new stone grinding tools, 1:53:19.680 --> 1:53:22.360 new ways of preparing and eating wild grains and roots 1:53:22.400 --> 1:53:27.120 and the vegetables, um, different ways of chopping, slicing, creating, grinding, 1:53:27.200 --> 1:53:31.000 silk and training, boiling and storing, smoking and preserving meats, 1:53:31.080 --> 1:53:33.240 plant foods and fish. And so when we start to 1:53:33.240 --> 1:53:36.720 see something that really brings people together, and that is 1:53:37.439 --> 1:53:42.679 cuisine and cuisine you know, being the birth of cuisine, 1:53:42.720 --> 1:53:49.479 being the booth of like really more specific cultures um, 1:53:49.720 --> 1:53:52.400 you know, the kinds of soups and porridges and stews 1:53:52.680 --> 1:53:57.439 and broths. And basically what they were talking about was 1:53:57.479 --> 1:53:59.680 the way that people who like wake up and eat 1:53:59.760 --> 1:54:04.160 fish stews every morning tend to, you know, develop a 1:54:04.280 --> 1:54:07.439 different center themselves relation to their world, compared people who 1:54:07.479 --> 1:54:10.040 might wake up in the morning and eat some porridge 1:54:10.160 --> 1:54:14.080 with like berries and wild oats, you know, and then 1:54:14.160 --> 1:54:16.920 from there they start to develop different tastes and including 1:54:17.160 --> 1:54:21.000 you know, in in dancing and drugs and hair styles. 1:54:21.600 --> 1:54:25.799 I remember last are on the book um the David's 1:54:25.840 --> 1:54:31.439 point out that some addigenous um Nat American groups who 1:54:31.439 --> 1:54:35.920 actually known for specific hair styles. And I kind of 1:54:36.000 --> 1:54:38.280 knew that based on the fact that, you know, we 1:54:38.400 --> 1:54:41.400 tend to associate mohawks with people, you know, mohawke cair 1:54:41.440 --> 1:54:44.160 style mohawk people, but I didn't realize that, you know, 1:54:44.320 --> 1:54:48.000 other groups also had their own kind of like culturally 1:54:48.040 --> 1:54:51.960 specific hair styles, right. And there's also like courtship rituals 1:54:52.080 --> 1:54:56.760 and forms of kinship and styles of rhetoric, and so 1:54:56.840 --> 1:54:58.960 of course you still have these large cultural areas in 1:54:59.000 --> 1:55:04.600 the Mesolithic, larger than some nation states. But he's starting 1:55:04.600 --> 1:55:06.720 to see a bit more specificity, in a bit more 1:55:07.640 --> 1:55:14.040 diversity in shorter um spans of area. If we look 1:55:14.080 --> 1:55:16.680 at now, for example, where you know, we have in 1:55:16.720 --> 1:55:20.080 the Amazon all these different languages and cultures that co 1:55:20.280 --> 1:55:24.040 exist merely kilometers from each other. I think the overall 1:55:24.160 --> 1:55:29.960 trend of human cultures, you know, the past tens of 1:55:30.000 --> 1:55:34.840 thousands of years, has been the opposite of marginalization. And 1:55:34.880 --> 1:55:37.360 it makes me think a bit about the whole concept 1:55:37.440 --> 1:55:39.200 of the nation states and how it tries to like 1:55:39.960 --> 1:55:43.080 bring people together to this like one narrow conception of 1:55:43.160 --> 1:55:44.960 what it means to be you know, X, y Z, 1:55:45.920 --> 1:55:52.600 and how humanity naturally seems to like resist that and 1:55:53.440 --> 1:55:56.000 naturally seems to like split all from that. Like, even 1:55:56.000 --> 1:55:59.600 when you have situations with the forceful spread of English 1:55:59.840 --> 1:56:02.920 in you know, the Caribbean colonies, you still see like 1:56:03.200 --> 1:56:05.760 a diversity springing up with a bunch of different unique 1:56:05.840 --> 1:56:09.880 creoles and dialects making the language something different. You know what, 1:56:10.360 --> 1:56:16.160 if not for the enforcement of language satidization through the 1:56:16.960 --> 1:56:20.120 school system, I think you would actually see an even 1:56:20.200 --> 1:56:27.919 more rapid um explosion of you know, linguistic diversity developing 1:56:27.960 --> 1:56:30.600 out of these creoles and dialects. You know, like a 1:56:30.680 --> 1:56:35.080 couple of centuries from now, you know, Patua and and 1:56:35.120 --> 1:56:40.200 Creole and British English maybe entirely incompatible. Even in Britain itself. 1:56:40.720 --> 1:56:44.080 You know, you might have a case where London English 1:56:44.200 --> 1:56:47.800 and I don't know, Sussex English or whatever starts to 1:56:47.880 --> 1:56:49.960 sound like entirely different, and I we already have that 1:56:50.080 --> 1:56:53.920 with accents. But just to see how, you know, even 1:56:54.000 --> 1:56:57.440 in short spaces of time, a short as a century 1:56:57.560 --> 1:57:02.360 or two, because for example, trend add Um was not 1:57:02.400 --> 1:57:05.320 always an English speaking colony. Um, we actually spoke French 1:57:05.360 --> 1:57:07.520 creel for the most of our history and only in 1:57:07.640 --> 1:57:11.000 the nineteenth century did we have that period of Anglicization 1:57:11.560 --> 1:57:14.880 where English was you know, brought in Um. And to 1:57:14.960 --> 1:57:16.520 see that in that short space of time and that 1:57:16.640 --> 1:57:19.320 handful of centuries that you know, you're not already has 1:57:19.360 --> 1:57:24.880 its own unique English based creel, you always just fascinating 1:57:24.960 --> 1:57:28.440 to see. Um. There's something really interesting to me about 1:57:28.480 --> 1:57:31.680 the way this process plays out because it's it's it's 1:57:31.680 --> 1:57:36.400 almost like because you have this sort of like like 1:57:36.680 --> 1:57:43.080 you have this period in the Mesolithic, all the period 1:57:43.160 --> 1:57:46.800 names are blanking out I had, but like like you say, yeah, 1:57:47.080 --> 1:57:49.320 like you have this period where you have kind of 1:57:50.160 --> 1:57:52.960 like you have a lot of cultural standardization, like spread 1:57:52.960 --> 1:57:55.720 across a long period like a bunch of places, and 1:57:55.840 --> 1:57:58.400 it's used sort of as a mutual aid thing. It 1:57:58.400 --> 1:58:00.440 allows people to travel because you can go a place 1:58:00.480 --> 1:58:03.520 and know that like there will be people who are 1:58:03.680 --> 1:58:05.440 like you there and they will take care of you. 1:58:06.080 --> 1:58:08.000 And it's interesting to me. It's like, Okay, so this 1:58:08.240 --> 1:58:11.680 breaks apart as sort of like these these new cultures, 1:58:11.880 --> 1:58:14.600 like as people develop local cultures around like food and 1:58:14.640 --> 1:58:18.480 around just like Graver has this thing that he loves 1:58:18.520 --> 1:58:21.760 talking about. These were talking about for ages called scisolo genesis, 1:58:22.440 --> 1:58:26.080 which is like you have two people, you know, it's 1:58:26.120 --> 1:58:27.880 like I think I think they're his ositional examples. Like 1:58:27.960 --> 1:58:29.560 if you people who are arguing with each other and 1:58:29.600 --> 1:58:32.000 they like disagree minor ly over like one thing, and 1:58:32.040 --> 1:58:34.640 then by the end of the argument, like they're they've 1:58:34.640 --> 1:58:37.520 they've taken like completely mutually opposed identities to each other 1:58:37.600 --> 1:58:40.840 based on an incredibly minor disagreement, and you get this 1:58:40.920 --> 1:58:42.520 with yeah, like you get cultures to sort of like 1:58:42.600 --> 1:58:44.680 define themselves against each other and like they have things 1:58:44.720 --> 1:58:46.720 that they like and things that they don't like. It's 1:58:46.760 --> 1:58:49.840 interesting to me that that you see you see the 1:58:50.040 --> 1:58:54.240 state trying to sort of like reimpose that kind of 1:58:54.320 --> 1:58:58.560 like like forty year old cultural commogity on all of 1:58:58.640 --> 1:59:01.760 these places that are like incredibly not homogeneous but they're 1:59:01.800 --> 1:59:03.680 doing it for like the opposite reason. They're doing it 1:59:03.760 --> 1:59:06.000 because they need senatorization in order to sort of like 1:59:06.680 --> 1:59:09.560 make their make their bureaucratic like systems work better and 1:59:09.640 --> 1:59:12.280 make their sort of like seeing like a stage kind 1:59:12.320 --> 1:59:15.000 of thing. Yeah. Yeah, And also like, like I mean, 1:59:15.160 --> 1:59:16.400 this is a huge thing. Everyone in the in the 1:59:16.520 --> 1:59:18.440 like the early the late nineties and early two thousands 1:59:18.480 --> 1:59:21.160 thought that like the extent of capitalism on the around 1:59:21.200 --> 1:59:23.680 the globe was going to make everything exactly the same, 1:59:23.800 --> 1:59:26.880 there's only one culture, and that like kind of really 1:59:26.960 --> 1:59:33.440 didn't happen. But there was this real sort of I 1:59:33.480 --> 1:59:35.320 don't know, like that there was this real sort of 1:59:36.040 --> 1:59:38.960 fear that that it wasn't just gonna be the nation 1:59:39.040 --> 1:59:41.680 state spreading like homoganization, but like capitalism was going to 1:59:41.720 --> 1:59:43.560 sort of like spread imoganization. And I guess I guess 1:59:43.600 --> 1:59:45.280 the thing that they round up doing againstead was like 1:59:45.800 --> 1:59:48.080 figuring out that you could just sell everyone into their 1:59:48.120 --> 1:59:52.360 individual cultural niche, which to some extent, yeah, because like 1:59:52.480 --> 1:59:56.040 we see McDonald's in the US and the McDonald's in 1:59:56.280 --> 2:00:00.200 Bangladesh and McDonald's in Japan, and they sell all of 2:00:00.240 --> 2:00:02.200 the same McDonald's stuff, but they've also like sort of 2:00:02.200 --> 2:00:06.120 specified to the you know, specific country. Yeah, we have 2:00:06.240 --> 2:00:08.120 the worst version. The US is the worst version of it, 2:00:08.160 --> 2:00:13.040 by the the the like Taiwan has one that has 2:00:13.080 --> 2:00:17.120 like they have like rice sticky rice patties. It's it's 2:00:17.160 --> 2:00:20.680 so much better than Yeah, I mean, I will say 2:00:20.720 --> 2:00:24.320 that if I did end up traveling to Taiwan, McDonald 2:00:24.400 --> 2:00:27.080 is probably be the last place I would want to go. Yeah, 2:00:27.120 --> 2:00:29.160 I mean we wanted beating there and we we were 2:00:29.200 --> 2:00:31.440 we had to catch a plane, so we wound up 2:00:31.480 --> 2:00:37.040 eating like Taiwanese McDonald's airport food because we had like 2:00:37.200 --> 2:00:40.920 five minutes. It was a you know what they say, 2:00:40.960 --> 2:00:47.400 what airplane food? Um, but yeah, that's exactly us. Well, 2:00:47.440 --> 2:00:50.120 to get into actually the whole idea of cultural differentiation, 2:00:50.760 --> 2:00:54.240 you know, um, and this this tendency of humans have 2:00:54.400 --> 2:00:57.600 to subdivide and to distinguish themselves from the near buzz. 2:00:58.400 --> 2:01:00.840 And I mean it's not to assume that, you know, 2:01:00.960 --> 2:01:05.680 this differentiation comes from like differences and like language, you know, 2:01:05.720 --> 2:01:08.120 with you know, language splitting off over the centuries and 2:01:08.560 --> 2:01:12.080 people associating with their native language and ethnicity. But that 2:01:12.200 --> 2:01:15.240 really tell the full story, you know, Like for example, 2:01:15.280 --> 2:01:20.040 in northern California in the early century. The Ethno linguistic 2:01:20.120 --> 2:01:23.680 map had really a jumble of languages that drew from 2:01:24.600 --> 2:01:27.480 entirely different language families, you know, as distant from one another, 2:01:27.680 --> 2:01:33.000 as like Arabic and Tamil and Portuguese. And yet these 2:01:33.040 --> 2:01:36.960 groups still shared you know, broad similarities. You know, how 2:01:37.000 --> 2:01:39.920 they went about gathering and processing food, you know their 2:01:39.960 --> 2:01:44.920 most important religious rituals, how they organized their political life. Um. 2:01:45.720 --> 2:01:48.920 And they also managed to keep themselves distinct. You know, 2:01:49.000 --> 2:01:51.600 you have the Iroque and the Hoop and the Karak 2:01:51.720 --> 2:01:54.600 and so forth. And I mean, to some extent, these 2:01:54.600 --> 2:02:00.920 identities did map once linguistic differences, but their neighbors, we 2:02:01.040 --> 2:02:05.760 spoke different languages, still had more common with them than 2:02:06.120 --> 2:02:09.200 people who came from their same language family in another 2:02:09.320 --> 2:02:13.160 part of North America. Of course, you know, European colonization 2:02:13.280 --> 2:02:16.360 had like a severe impact on like how neat Americans 2:02:16.400 --> 2:02:20.240 were distributed. Um. But we still tend to see this 2:02:20.320 --> 2:02:24.600 trend of how like these modern nation states they went 2:02:24.720 --> 2:02:27.520 around at the time to you know, or the population. 2:02:27.640 --> 2:02:31.680 Since these neat Ethno linguistic groups, you know, this idea 2:02:31.760 --> 2:02:34.600 that the world should be divided into these like homogeneous 2:02:34.720 --> 2:02:38.000 units to their own history and everyone has a claim 2:02:38.080 --> 2:02:40.520 to like a certain territory and all that. It's I mean, 2:02:40.640 --> 2:02:44.400 it's really a concept that is born onto this mythology 2:02:44.520 --> 2:02:47.320 of the nation state. And you know, of course we 2:02:47.360 --> 2:02:49.720 have to be real careful before we project those kind 2:02:49.720 --> 2:02:54.000 of uniformities back in time. Yeah, it's definitely really like 2:02:54.120 --> 2:02:58.879 two years old, like it it's pretty young, yeah, exactly exactly. 2:02:59.480 --> 2:03:02.840 But um, there are some concerns, you know, with the 2:03:02.960 --> 2:03:07.160 concept of culture areas because that whole notion of culture 2:03:07.160 --> 2:03:10.800 areas came out of North American museums who wanted to 2:03:11.120 --> 2:03:14.920 arrange their stolen artifacts to illustrate their theories of the 2:03:14.960 --> 2:03:17.960 different stages of human adaptation, you know, like Colover's lower 2:03:18.000 --> 2:03:21.760 savagery and upper savagery and lower lower barbaris sum and 2:03:21.880 --> 2:03:24.880 so on. And so they hadd to in whether they 2:03:24.880 --> 2:03:29.600 were an organized these artifacts based on like language, family 2:03:30.040 --> 2:03:35.640 or regional clusters um or some sort of like traced 2:03:35.800 --> 2:03:43.839 history of of of regional of ancient migrations. Right. Eventually 2:03:43.880 --> 2:03:46.200 they realized that you know, this way of organizing into 2:03:46.240 --> 2:03:51.320 regional clusters seemed to work best the art and technology 2:03:51.400 --> 2:03:55.800 of different Eastern Woodlands tribes had some very similar um 2:03:56.200 --> 2:03:59.720 things in common compared to like trying to group people 2:03:59.800 --> 2:04:03.720 be sturn like say the Athabascan language or all the 2:04:03.720 --> 2:04:06.640 people who relied on fishing or all people cultivate to 2:04:06.680 --> 2:04:11.960 me is um. And they were able to find similar 2:04:12.000 --> 2:04:16.200 patterns in the Neolithic villages of Central Europe, you know, 2:04:16.280 --> 2:04:20.400 finding these regional clusters of domestic life and art and 2:04:20.720 --> 2:04:24.760 ritual and so like. This whole cultural area concept was 2:04:24.800 --> 2:04:27.560 kind of a way of pushing back against this way 2:04:27.600 --> 2:04:31.760 of you know, talking about humanistry that like ranked populations 2:04:31.840 --> 2:04:36.360 into higher or lower anything. You know, this this idea 2:04:36.440 --> 2:04:39.600 of of claiming that you know, people were of a 2:04:39.680 --> 2:04:44.600 certain superior genetic stock and viciouslynd fance level of technological 2:04:44.680 --> 2:04:49.000 evolution and so rather this there's been there was a 2:04:49.040 --> 2:04:52.720 shift in anthropological focus to look at the diffusion of 2:04:52.840 --> 2:04:58.560 more cultural treats like ceramics and sweat lodges and you know, 2:04:58.960 --> 2:05:04.920 the treatment of young men or certain sports um as. 2:05:05.040 --> 2:05:08.320 They wanted to try to understand how these different tribes 2:05:08.360 --> 2:05:12.240 of certain region came to share this mesh of culture traits. 2:05:13.120 --> 2:05:15.640 So one of the people who were thinking on this, 2:05:15.920 --> 2:05:20.480 you know, whole culture traits cluster idea. Um, it was 2:05:20.560 --> 2:05:24.520 guy named bous right, and he wanted to figure out 2:05:25.440 --> 2:05:29.120 why is that, like geography seemed to define the circulation 2:05:29.160 --> 2:05:31.720 of ideas, you know, with like mountains and dests form 2:05:31.760 --> 2:05:37.360 these natural barriers, and how basically the diffusion within those 2:05:37.440 --> 2:05:44.040 regions was basically historical accident, a legal hypothesizing that there 2:05:44.160 --> 2:05:47.600 was some sort of like way to eventually develop a 2:05:47.640 --> 2:05:52.120 kind of a natural science, developing how and even predicting 2:05:52.600 --> 2:05:57.320 the ebb and floor styles, habits and social forms. And 2:05:57.400 --> 2:06:01.360 eventually muscle Mouse pulls up, you know, and he's basically 2:06:01.440 --> 2:06:06.240 taught obviously, like right, bunch of essays on nationalism and civilization, 2:06:06.400 --> 2:06:09.080 and he says it's basically, this whole idea of cultural 2:06:09.080 --> 2:06:13.640 the fusion is nonsense because it's based on a false assumption. 2:06:14.240 --> 2:06:18.360 And the false assumption is that the movement of people, technologies, 2:06:18.360 --> 2:06:22.600 and ideas is some sort of rarity, something unusual. Instead, 2:06:22.640 --> 2:06:26.200 Mouse argues that like people in past times traveled even 2:06:26.320 --> 2:06:31.240 more than people do today, and it's just that when 2:06:31.280 --> 2:06:34.720 these people interact with people of other cultures and they 2:06:34.800 --> 2:06:40.600 see their cultural traits, they reflect on that and find 2:06:40.640 --> 2:06:44.840 a way to relate that to their own cultures, right, 2:06:44.880 --> 2:06:46.920 so that people who are traveling back then, obviously all 2:06:47.000 --> 2:06:51.520 of them, you know, we're aware of basketry, you know, 2:06:52.920 --> 2:06:55.880 or or or feather works or whatever the case may 2:06:55.920 --> 2:06:58.720 be that other people were use in a couple of 2:06:58.800 --> 2:07:04.040 miles away, seemed to be said for like certain drum rhythms, 2:07:04.240 --> 2:07:10.760 or certain you know, games, or like For example, he 2:07:10.840 --> 2:07:15.840 spent some time focusing on the distribution of the ball 2:07:15.960 --> 2:07:20.400 games around the Pacific Ocean, around the Pacific Rim from 2:07:20.480 --> 2:07:26.160 Japan's New Zealand to California, and what he realized is 2:07:26.240 --> 2:07:31.400 that while people pick up certain ideas cittain traits from 2:07:31.440 --> 2:07:35.600 other cultures comes down to how they'd want to be 2:07:35.720 --> 2:07:41.120 defined against their neighbors, against their closest neighbors. The question 2:07:41.200 --> 2:07:45.720 becomes less about why certain culture traits spread, but why 2:07:46.120 --> 2:07:48.960 other culture traits didn't. Because if you were aware of 2:07:49.040 --> 2:07:50.800 all the things that your neighbors and stuff are doing, 2:07:50.840 --> 2:07:54.080 all these foreign customs and arts and technologies. I mean, 2:07:54.160 --> 2:07:56.000 we know that the Silk Road, for example, when we 2:07:56.040 --> 2:07:58.600 talk about the Silk Road, you know we had a 2:07:58.680 --> 2:08:01.160 silk road going from China all the way into Europe 2:08:01.680 --> 2:08:04.440 and all across the Silk roop all across Central Asia 2:08:04.920 --> 2:08:09.880 and West Asia. And despite that constant you know, sharing 2:08:09.920 --> 2:08:13.480 of ideas, not every idea that you know came from 2:08:13.800 --> 2:08:18.640 China or came from Pussia or I don't know if 2:08:18.640 --> 2:08:20.880 Pusia was arounding the Silk Crew. But you know what 2:08:20.920 --> 2:08:23.520 I'm saying, Like, not every idea that was along the 2:08:23.600 --> 2:08:26.440 Silk Crew everyone necessarily picked up on, even if it 2:08:26.560 --> 2:08:31.200 was a technology that might have benefited them, because cultures 2:08:32.600 --> 2:08:39.200 effectively structures of refusal. So for example, um, there's this 2:08:39.440 --> 2:08:42.840 guy on YouTube Religion for Breakfast. He did a video 2:08:42.880 --> 2:08:48.680 recently on the pork taboo in certain cultures and certain religions, right, 2:08:49.760 --> 2:08:51.880 and one of the things he pointed out was that 2:08:52.400 --> 2:08:56.800 the taboo tends to be strengthened in times of like 2:08:57.320 --> 2:09:06.640 repression so for example, or in times of cultural um definition. 2:09:07.680 --> 2:09:10.240 So for example, he is pointing out that in the 2:09:10.520 --> 2:09:15.600 period of Roman conquest, the Jewish people were more inclined 2:09:15.640 --> 2:09:19.960 to define themselves as you know, against the consumption of pork, 2:09:20.120 --> 2:09:24.440 compared to the Romans. You know, for example, the Chinese 2:09:24.480 --> 2:09:26.560 are the people who use chopsticks, you know, they don't 2:09:26.600 --> 2:09:29.160 use knives and forks, So you're the tie the people 2:09:29.160 --> 2:09:33.280 who use spoons and so on. You know, it could 2:09:33.360 --> 2:09:35.680 just be said said that, you know, it's like aesthetics, 2:09:37.000 --> 2:09:39.320 like styles of art or music or tim man and 2:09:39.360 --> 2:09:41.760 is of course those things won't differ. But even like 2:09:41.840 --> 2:09:46.440 technologies that have like an adaptive or utilitarian benefits might 2:09:46.480 --> 2:09:49.120 still be risk, might still be refused by people who 2:09:49.240 --> 2:09:54.360 might even benefit from them. For example, the Athabaskans in 2:09:54.560 --> 2:09:59.240 Alaska refused to use Inuit kayaks despite the fact that 2:09:59.320 --> 2:10:02.000 there are a lot better to suited for the environment 2:10:02.040 --> 2:10:05.520 and their own boots, and the Inuit, for example, don't 2:10:05.640 --> 2:10:10.440 use Athabaskan snow shoes um at least in the time 2:10:10.520 --> 2:10:15.560 that Master Mouse is writing. And then, of course this 2:10:15.680 --> 2:10:19.560 is a self conscious process, you know, this is a 2:10:19.640 --> 2:10:23.960 process where a debate and discussion of all these different 2:10:24.800 --> 2:10:28.040 customs would have been occurring. You know, for example, in 2:10:28.120 --> 2:10:31.520 the Chinese courts when different foreign styles and customs would 2:10:31.560 --> 2:10:34.760 you come into the lands, there will be debates and 2:10:34.960 --> 2:10:37.760 arguments put forward by you know, the kings and the 2:10:37.840 --> 2:10:42.600 advisors and their vassals, you know, discussing, you know, whether 2:10:42.640 --> 2:10:48.040 they would ride the horses or drive chariots, or adopt 2:10:48.160 --> 2:10:54.400 like the man chew dress codes and customs, and so 2:10:55.120 --> 2:11:00.200 society's mouth said lived by borrowing from each other. They 2:11:00.240 --> 2:11:05.320 define themselves by the refusal of borring than by its acceptance. 2:11:06.760 --> 2:11:10.600 The question of how culture areas form and how culture 2:11:10.600 --> 2:11:19.120 has split off is definitely a political one. The decision 2:11:19.240 --> 2:11:25.080 to adopt a certain form of agriculture, or to cultivate 2:11:25.240 --> 2:11:30.800 a certain crop more specifically, or to adopt a certain 2:11:30.880 --> 2:11:34.000 style of dress. It's not just like a matter of 2:11:34.120 --> 2:11:41.360 like mere utility of maya or caloric advantage or material efficiency, 2:11:42.680 --> 2:11:47.879 or it's also a reflection and questioning of the values 2:11:49.320 --> 2:11:53.800 that that group of people holds or purport to hold, 2:11:54.240 --> 2:12:00.760 who they consider themselves to be. And I to think 2:12:00.800 --> 2:12:03.400 about the development of cultures, you know, I'd like to 2:12:03.480 --> 2:12:11.879 think about how our ancestors are, distant ancestors even consider themselves. 2:12:11.960 --> 2:12:13.760 You know, it's easy to just fall into this trap 2:12:14.200 --> 2:12:17.280 because it's a very common cultural troop that you know, 2:12:18.400 --> 2:12:20.800 once you go before the invention of writing or whatever, 2:12:21.000 --> 2:12:24.560 all of all ancestors are just like boga boogle cave 2:12:24.640 --> 2:12:27.400 men kind of thing. But to think of them as 2:12:27.840 --> 2:12:40.240 self conscious and politically um conscious, politically considerate, thoughtful actors, 2:12:41.600 --> 2:12:49.400 not you know, static or passive props um. It's just 2:12:49.680 --> 2:12:51.920 I think it's it's I think it's just very cool. 2:12:52.880 --> 2:12:55.440 I think it's very cool, and I think we should 2:12:55.520 --> 2:13:01.920 keep you know, these developments, these this recognition in mind 2:13:02.040 --> 2:13:04.800 as we you know, in the modern time look to 2:13:04.960 --> 2:13:09.400 try to transform the cultures we live under and to 2:13:09.520 --> 2:13:15.280 try to develop new values, new values of like anti 2:13:15.320 --> 2:13:21.760 authorityanism and anti capitalism and of you know, agree to 2:13:21.880 --> 2:13:29.000 priority on mutual aid and on egalitarian and social relations. Yeah. 2:13:29.040 --> 2:13:32.480 I think there's a lot of very interesting political consequences 2:13:33.360 --> 2:13:37.840 of of thinking about this, because like, I think that 2:13:37.960 --> 2:13:41.360 there's there's sort of like two tendencies that that we 2:13:41.480 --> 2:13:44.680 sort of get stuck in when we think about like 2:13:45.280 --> 2:13:48.120 our social structures, which is there's there's there's one which 2:13:48.160 --> 2:13:51.080 is the sort of like I guess it's called capitalist realism, 2:13:51.120 --> 2:13:54.000 which is the assumption that like nothing else could possibly like, 2:13:54.080 --> 2:13:55.760 this is the only system that works, nothing else can 2:13:55.840 --> 2:14:01.520 possibly exist, and that's unproductive. You know, you go back 2:14:01.600 --> 2:14:04.120 and you look at like any other culture society, and 2:14:04.120 --> 2:14:09.160 it's like, well, no, like there's unbelievably nearly infinite number 2:14:09.200 --> 2:14:11.520 of ways you can organize your society. But then I 2:14:11.600 --> 2:14:14.680 think I think the second one is that, like, yeah, 2:14:15.120 --> 2:14:18.600 if you look at this sort of cultural diffusion and 2:14:18.640 --> 2:14:23.200 cultural refusal stuff, you see a lot of examples of 2:14:23.280 --> 2:14:27.839 people doing stuff that like under sort of like classical 2:14:27.920 --> 2:14:30.320 economic or like sociological laws, they shouldn't be doing, right, Like, 2:14:30.360 --> 2:14:32.600 there there's no reason why you shouldn't using more efficient 2:14:32.640 --> 2:14:34.480 canoe if you're in a place of the part of 2:14:34.480 --> 2:14:37.760 the world that's like extremely hard to surviving, right. And 2:14:38.120 --> 2:14:39.840 I think that there's this tendency to sort of like 2:14:41.200 --> 2:14:44.240 reduced culture and reduced just all of the ways that 2:14:44.280 --> 2:14:46.640 our social and political systems function to these sort of 2:14:46.760 --> 2:14:48.960 like oh, the the product of these like abstract historical 2:14:49.080 --> 2:14:52.600 forces and like it's all like tech, it's all determined 2:14:52.640 --> 2:14:55.440 by technology, and like how you farm and stuff like 2:14:55.600 --> 2:14:58.800 that's just not true. Yeah, I mean not the material 2:14:58.920 --> 2:15:05.080 conditions on you know, very important and understanding um, you know, 2:15:05.240 --> 2:15:10.120 how these cultures develop, and that's one part of um 2:15:10.320 --> 2:15:12.760 don't Everything that I found was a bit lacking. I 2:15:12.840 --> 2:15:17.040 think that not all the time those thoughts were clearly connected. Oh, 2:15:17.160 --> 2:15:20.600 I'd see, But I do think people put too much 2:15:20.680 --> 2:15:27.200 stock in solely material materialist um explanations and that kind 2:15:27.240 --> 2:15:32.640 of ends up precluding or leaving out the more messy 2:15:33.000 --> 2:15:36.480 human round of explanation. Yeah, And I think I think 2:15:36.560 --> 2:15:38.640 part of why this happens is that, like it's much 2:15:38.720 --> 2:15:42.200 if you assume everyone he's like behaving a quality to 2:15:42.320 --> 2:15:44.040 historical forces or like the thing that they're trying to 2:15:44.120 --> 2:15:47.880 do is like maximize, um, they're trying to maximize their 2:15:47.960 --> 2:15:49.800 utility and they're trying to like maximize the amount of 2:15:49.800 --> 2:15:51.720 calories they have. It that that's a very easy thing 2:15:51.880 --> 2:15:55.280 to like you like think about numerically, right, Like it's 2:15:55.280 --> 2:15:57.120 a very easy thing to refuse the numbers. It's extremely 2:15:57.120 --> 2:16:00.720 difficult to refuse the numbers, like to do to reduce 2:16:01.320 --> 2:16:03.520 two numbers. A society that is like I'm going to 2:16:03.600 --> 2:16:06.480 I'm going to intentionally make my life harder for myself 2:16:07.160 --> 2:16:08.840 because this is the way we do things, and we've 2:16:08.880 --> 2:16:10.800 decided we don't want to do things like other people. 2:16:10.920 --> 2:16:12.880 We've decided that we have some kind of political value 2:16:12.920 --> 2:16:16.080 that we have that makes it such that we're going 2:16:16.200 --> 2:16:19.240 to like induce difficulty into our lives and like that, 2:16:21.920 --> 2:16:25.160 I don't know, like that that kind of stuff. The 2:16:26.680 --> 2:16:30.160 the fact that culture is not just a sort of 2:16:30.280 --> 2:16:33.440 like superstructure that gets that's like a product of like 2:16:33.520 --> 2:16:38.000 some kind of economic base like that that is very 2:16:38.160 --> 2:16:44.600 important and something that gets ignored or downplayed constantly that 2:16:44.720 --> 2:16:46.800 I think I don't like. I think like, yeah, I 2:16:46.840 --> 2:16:49.080 think I think you can argue that everything like maybe 2:16:49.120 --> 2:16:52.800 goes too far in the other direction. But I'm I'm 2:16:52.800 --> 2:16:54.440 sort of okay with that, just because we've been so 2:16:54.640 --> 2:16:58.440 far on the side of like everything is historical forces 2:16:58.480 --> 2:17:02.360 for so long that you need something to remind people that, like, 2:17:02.760 --> 2:17:06.440 societies make conscious political choices, and not only have they 2:17:06.480 --> 2:17:09.520 made conscious political choices for like times of thousands of years, 2:17:10.200 --> 2:17:14.160 I like, we also can make conscious political choices that 2:17:14.280 --> 2:17:16.680 are not just sort of like pure reflections of like 2:17:17.800 --> 2:17:20.360 however many tons of iron have been extracted, and like 2:17:20.480 --> 2:17:24.279 what percentage of like workers are currently working in hospitals 2:17:24.480 --> 2:17:30.280 versus like making cookies or something. Right, Thank you for 2:17:30.360 --> 2:17:37.080 that ooh analysis, Chris, I agree that that's a joke, 2:17:37.200 --> 2:17:40.080 Like twelve people will get I I love you if 2:17:40.160 --> 2:17:50.280 you if you understand that joke. Also, I'm sorry, yes, 2:17:50.360 --> 2:17:53.720 so you can wrap it up. Carson Um. All of 2:17:53.760 --> 2:17:56.400 this has been very fascinating. What what I've learned the 2:17:56.520 --> 2:17:59.440 most is that I need to finished reading all my 2:17:59.480 --> 2:18:02.800 books as that I can read the Dawn and everything. Um, 2:18:03.320 --> 2:18:04.920 I know I like, I like got it from my 2:18:05.080 --> 2:18:08.880 dad for Christmas because um, because I knew that it 2:18:08.920 --> 2:18:10.560 would be uh at least I think I did. My 2:18:10.640 --> 2:18:12.800 memory could be I could actually be wrong. I could 2:18:12.840 --> 2:18:15.760 have only intended to get my dad for Christmas and 2:18:16.040 --> 2:18:18.720 forgotten to actually get it. But I've been reading it 2:18:18.840 --> 2:18:21.080 to I've been meeting to both buy it for myself 2:18:21.480 --> 2:18:24.120 and get it for other people because I've heard a 2:18:24.200 --> 2:18:26.800 lot of interesting things about the book. So it is 2:18:26.800 --> 2:18:31.600 definitely on my list. It's been a pleasure listening to. Uh, 2:18:31.800 --> 2:18:36.480 you'll discuss it, um Andrew. Where can if people want 2:18:36.520 --> 2:18:40.360 to check out more of your your work? Where could 2:18:40.440 --> 2:18:44.880 where could they go about that? Right? So you can 2:18:44.920 --> 2:18:47.760 still find me on Twitter and underscore see and Drew 2:18:47.879 --> 2:18:51.560 when I'm not um hiding, And you could also find 2:18:51.600 --> 2:18:56.720 me on YouTube andreism YouTube dot com, slash andreism, where 2:18:56.840 --> 2:19:01.840 I post radios about also stuff, random stuff. You know 2:19:01.920 --> 2:19:06.520 that I'm thinking about politics, history, Well that jazz. A 2:19:06.600 --> 2:19:10.120 few days ago, as the time of recording, um Andrew 2:19:10.200 --> 2:19:13.760 put out a wonderful video on a solar punk stuff. Um, 2:19:14.160 --> 2:19:15.600 I have no idea what this episode will air, so 2:19:15.680 --> 2:19:17.840 that it's probably been like a month or two or something. 2:19:19.160 --> 2:19:22.640 But definitely check out the Andrewism channel. It's one of 2:19:22.720 --> 2:19:26.840 my favorite spots too. Uh watch something. When I feel 2:19:26.879 --> 2:19:28.840 like I can't put any words on the page, I 2:19:28.920 --> 2:19:32.640 go watch your things because it's very helpful. Um. Yeah, 2:19:33.000 --> 2:19:35.840 so that doesn't for us Today. You can find us 2:19:35.920 --> 2:19:38.360 that Twitter and on Twitter and Instagram at happened here 2:19:38.400 --> 2:19:41.400 pod coos out Media. You can find me posting about 2:19:41.480 --> 2:19:44.800 hyper objects and liminal spaces at Hungry bow Tie And 2:19:45.160 --> 2:19:48.560 I heard that you have a Twitter, Chris. Yeah, it's 2:19:48.680 --> 2:19:54.560 at mc h R three. You can find me mostly 2:19:55.000 --> 2:20:00.800 complaining about other people who are doing mean isn't wrong? 2:20:01.080 --> 2:20:03.320 I guess that's most of what I post about. Love 2:20:03.400 --> 2:20:06.880 that for you, you two will be able to differentiate 2:20:06.920 --> 2:20:09.560 between the sixteen different For exceit, it's not even there. 2:20:09.640 --> 2:20:13.240 Used to be long ago into galaxy, far far away, 2:20:13.240 --> 2:20:15.200 and made a decision, and that was that I was 2:20:15.200 --> 2:20:17.440 going to sacrifice my brain to understand the different kinds 2:20:17.440 --> 2:20:19.320 of maoism. And if you two want to understand why 2:20:19.400 --> 2:20:23.640 it still exists in all twenty varieties of them, yeah, 2:20:23.800 --> 2:20:25.920 go there. If you don't want to do that. Do not, 2:20:26.480 --> 2:20:31.680 You'll be happier. Well, what a ringing endorsement. Uh? Good bye? 2:20:31.720 --> 2:20:34.600 Everyone go I don't know, should we should? Should we 2:20:34.600 --> 2:20:38.400 plug up people at the other shows? Yeah? I guess 2:20:39.160 --> 2:20:41.080 everyone's tune dead at this point. I hope they've all 2:20:41.120 --> 2:20:48.400 stopped at the podcast player. I think I think, Uh, yes, 2:20:48.600 --> 2:20:51.840 go outside and be free there, I can you can 2:20:51.959 --> 2:20:55.880 you can edit that into something that is more concise. Sorry, 2:20:55.959 --> 2:21:15.880 Daniel Slash, I don't care. Yeah, it's well, it is 2:21:15.920 --> 2:21:18.520 the podcast. It could happen here, but for once, it 2:21:18.680 --> 2:21:21.200 is not about the world falling apart. It is entirely 2:21:21.240 --> 2:21:24.600 about putting it back together again. Uh. And and joining 2:21:24.640 --> 2:21:27.920 me to talk about putting it back together again is 2:21:28.320 --> 2:21:30.600 zero of the other people who are normally on this podcast. 2:21:30.760 --> 2:21:35.000 But I'm joined by Shannon and John Horonomus, who are 2:21:35.040 --> 2:21:36.720 part of the team of Organized Is working on the 2:21:36.800 --> 2:21:40.640 Dual Power Gathering. Shannon, John, Welcome, Welcome to the show. Hi, 2:21:41.320 --> 2:21:45.480 thank you, hey. So, I guess the first part of 2:21:45.560 --> 2:21:48.760 the Dual Power Gathering is dual power, and I think 2:21:48.840 --> 2:21:52.040 we should walk through what actually that is, in what 2:21:52.240 --> 2:21:54.959 our sort of visions for it look like, because Man, 2:21:55.000 --> 2:21:57.480 I know we've talked about this on the show before, 2:21:57.600 --> 2:22:00.280 but that was a very very long time ago, but 2:22:00.360 --> 2:22:03.920 which I mean like probably only like seven months, but 2:22:04.600 --> 2:22:09.360 you know, it feels like ancient history. So yeah, I 2:22:09.440 --> 2:22:11.680 guess do you two want to talk about what dual 2:22:11.720 --> 2:22:18.800 power is and how how do you do? Yeah? Sure, 2:22:18.959 --> 2:22:20.920 I'm gonna stop trying to think about what happened seven 2:22:20.959 --> 2:22:24.960 months ago and trying to Okay, you said that. I 2:22:25.040 --> 2:22:27.720 was just like, oh wow, Okay, no, never mind. Um So, 2:22:28.160 --> 2:22:32.120 dual power, John, how about I go ahead and share 2:22:32.200 --> 2:22:36.800 with our audience what is sort of the poetic language 2:22:36.879 --> 2:22:40.240 that we have up on the website from the the organizers, 2:22:40.320 --> 2:22:42.520 and then we can kind of like break it down 2:22:42.560 --> 2:22:46.120 and talk about it. Um yeah, that works for me, 2:22:46.800 --> 2:22:52.240 all right. So of the website texts such dual power 2:22:52.360 --> 2:22:54.520 is a way to imagine the moment just before our 2:22:54.600 --> 2:22:58.520 movements converge, as the possible becomes the actual, when the 2:22:58.600 --> 2:23:02.200 seeds of social transfer nation we have sown for generations bloom, 2:23:02.680 --> 2:23:05.520 when the old world begins to wither and new worlds 2:23:05.600 --> 2:23:08.160 can be born. Is a way of thinking about how 2:23:08.240 --> 2:23:11.039 we got to that moment and beyond it. Dual power 2:23:11.120 --> 2:23:15.120 is the project of building self determination, mutual aid, solidarity, 2:23:15.240 --> 2:23:18.720 and direct democracy in our communities by creating spaces that 2:23:18.800 --> 2:23:22.519 empower us all and from which new and mansipatory institutions 2:23:22.640 --> 2:23:29.280 can emerge. It's a pretty So what does that mean? 2:23:30.400 --> 2:23:32.680 So what does that mean? UM? First off, I want 2:23:32.720 --> 2:23:35.680 to say like a shout out to a lot of 2:23:35.760 --> 2:23:40.960 people have been working on this vision of what dual 2:23:41.000 --> 2:23:46.240 power is for years and years now, and that includes UH, 2:23:46.600 --> 2:23:51.040 A lot of groups UM that we are either in 2:23:51.200 --> 2:23:55.840 conversation with or have been taking inspiration from. UM. One 2:23:55.920 --> 2:24:00.280 of the biggest, I think most developed groups that's doing 2:24:00.560 --> 2:24:05.039 that work is Cooperation Jackson and Jackson Jacks Mississippi, UM 2:24:06.480 --> 2:24:11.600 and UH. I think the goal is people went up. 2:24:11.920 --> 2:24:15.120 Oftentimes when people do like here dual power, if they 2:24:15.160 --> 2:24:18.720 don't have any other UM context for it, but they 2:24:18.760 --> 2:24:21.760 are maybe from the left. They've heard about this moment 2:24:22.080 --> 2:24:26.400 in the Russian Revolution when there were these two competing 2:24:27.640 --> 2:24:31.959 like uh, you know, basis of power in like Russian 2:24:32.080 --> 2:24:37.279 society while they're undergoing this revolutionary change, and uh Lenin 2:24:37.480 --> 2:24:40.600 wrote like a pamphlet about it, calling it the dual 2:24:40.640 --> 2:24:42.240 power and looked at it as like a thing that 2:24:42.400 --> 2:24:47.200 needed to be like overcome by you know, workers in 2:24:47.360 --> 2:24:54.160 Russia UM, to like establish a workers state UM, which 2:24:54.200 --> 2:24:56.680 they kind of outlined in a book called State and Revolution. 2:24:57.280 --> 2:25:01.160 And but when we look at like they were describing, 2:25:01.480 --> 2:25:03.960 we kind of look at this as I think that 2:25:04.080 --> 2:25:08.600 emerges in any time when there's a social revolution and 2:25:08.760 --> 2:25:12.359 kind of unfolding in a society where you have various 2:25:12.520 --> 2:25:20.520 classes who are like changing like social relations, workers, peasants, UM, 2:25:21.000 --> 2:25:24.000 different groups of people who like have like a class 2:25:24.120 --> 2:25:27.680 they have come together around a class interest and overthrowing 2:25:27.720 --> 2:25:31.920 their oppression, and they have to go through stages of 2:25:33.520 --> 2:25:39.119 building their collective power their collective identity there, and they're 2:25:39.959 --> 2:25:45.080 kind of like overall strategic movement in a particular direction UM, 2:25:46.080 --> 2:25:50.800 and they create this tension between the existing state order 2:25:51.360 --> 2:25:56.240 and a newly emerging like uh, like social revolution that's 2:25:56.280 --> 2:26:01.240 like overthrown, challenging uh and overthrowing that like UM power. 2:26:01.879 --> 2:26:07.960 So that being said, we want to ground that. We 2:26:08.000 --> 2:26:09.760 want to ground that a little bit in a like 2:26:09.879 --> 2:26:14.160 less historicized context or whatever. We could say maybe that's 2:26:14.200 --> 2:26:18.160 the work that we're doing to build up the institutions 2:26:18.360 --> 2:26:22.720 and relational structures that we need to care for ourselves 2:26:22.760 --> 2:26:27.320 in each other UM as we moved through uh sort 2:26:27.360 --> 2:26:33.520 of like different states of like institutional organization in the society. Right. 2:26:33.640 --> 2:26:36.040 So when we're thinking about how do we meet our 2:26:36.080 --> 2:26:39.320 basic needs together in ways that are not dependent on 2:26:39.680 --> 2:26:42.879 the oppressive institutions that we're trying to overthrow, we're talking 2:26:42.920 --> 2:26:47.760 about dual power. Yeah, it's like any time working class folks, 2:26:47.879 --> 2:26:51.720 And it's like in a broad definition, communities, people who 2:26:51.720 --> 2:26:55.840 aren't necessarily working but like depend on like taking care 2:26:55.879 --> 2:26:58.120 of each other or who do the work of reproducing 2:26:58.280 --> 2:27:03.359 every you know society, UM basically build their own independent 2:27:03.480 --> 2:27:07.440 power like uh to like to be able to fight 2:27:07.520 --> 2:27:11.560 back and to challenge the you know, the status quo. So, 2:27:11.959 --> 2:27:14.760 like there's a lot of things they're kind of percolating 2:27:14.840 --> 2:27:18.760 that we've been like that have been happening in North 2:27:18.840 --> 2:27:23.800 America that takes inspiration from areas of the global South, UM, 2:27:24.360 --> 2:27:29.120 but also our homeown, homegrown like traditions, UM. So that 2:27:29.280 --> 2:27:32.920 could be in anything from like your local mutual aid 2:27:32.959 --> 2:27:37.440 network to uh, your local tenant union to like a 2:27:37.560 --> 2:27:42.240 rank and file UM union of like Amazon workers or 2:27:42.520 --> 2:27:49.720 teachers or care workers, um, you know whose existence puts 2:27:49.840 --> 2:27:55.840 them in conflict with the state capital um and like patriarchy, 2:27:56.000 --> 2:28:01.760 settler colonial relations um, you know, like indigenous protectors um, 2:28:02.200 --> 2:28:06.920 folks who are building up places where the more developed 2:28:06.959 --> 2:28:13.240 it becomes, the more it kind of built its own momentum. 2:28:13.280 --> 2:28:17.640 And you have spaces that are like autonomous, fully like 2:28:17.800 --> 2:28:22.840 autonomous regions from like state power and to begin to 2:28:22.920 --> 2:28:27.320 like pick apart at capital and like reconfigure are like 2:28:27.959 --> 2:28:30.400 relations of like how we make things, to do things 2:28:30.480 --> 2:28:32.720 and take care of each other in like fundamental ways. 2:28:33.280 --> 2:28:35.480 And we have lots of beautiful examples of this from 2:28:35.560 --> 2:28:39.200 the like organizing history not even that long ago. And 2:28:39.240 --> 2:28:41.400 people will be familiar with some of the Black Panther 2:28:41.560 --> 2:28:45.880 programs or some of the programs that were integrated into 2:28:46.280 --> 2:28:49.880 the farm workers movement, and some of the programs that 2:28:50.520 --> 2:28:54.600 were put together by the anarchi feminists who were trying 2:28:54.680 --> 2:28:59.040 to support women's bodily autonomy and secure abortion rights through 2:28:59.720 --> 2:29:03.360 thing like mutual aid healthcare and and things like that. 2:29:03.560 --> 2:29:05.840 So we'll see there's like a lot of really beautiful 2:29:05.879 --> 2:29:10.720 examples of this work happening over time around successful organizing movements. 2:29:10.760 --> 2:29:13.480 And we're all really excited about what's going on now 2:29:13.560 --> 2:29:16.320 and we want to see that just to sort of 2:29:16.480 --> 2:29:19.280 come together and flourish. I think it's important to think 2:29:19.280 --> 2:29:21.240 about dual power or something that's like, I don't know, 2:29:21.320 --> 2:29:22.879 like I I think there's a lot of people who 2:29:23.120 --> 2:29:25.280 look at it as sort of like dual power is 2:29:25.280 --> 2:29:27.600 planting a garden. It's like, I mean sort of, yes, 2:29:27.760 --> 2:29:30.640 but like there's you know, they're there. There's there's sort 2:29:30.640 --> 2:29:32.720 of two components of it, right, There's there's this sort 2:29:32.760 --> 2:29:35.440 of there's a defensive component and an offensive component. There's 2:29:35.440 --> 2:29:38.040 a component that's about taking care of each other, and 2:29:38.200 --> 2:29:40.320 there is a component that is attack. Right, there's there's 2:29:40.320 --> 2:29:42.279 there's a component that is the people who are preventing 2:29:42.360 --> 2:29:43.800 us and taking care of each other need to be 2:29:43.879 --> 2:29:49.120 stopped from doing that. And so yeah, I think I 2:29:49.400 --> 2:29:53.400 think it's important to, yeah, think about different kinds of 2:29:54.280 --> 2:29:58.800 like different kinds of institutions that you would not normally 2:29:58.920 --> 2:30:00.879 think of as doing the same thing, as being part 2:30:00.920 --> 2:30:03.400 of the same struggle. And yeah, I guess that brings 2:30:03.480 --> 2:30:06.119 us to what YouTube and a lot of other people 2:30:06.120 --> 2:30:09.520 have been working on. For god, it has been this 2:30:09.840 --> 2:30:12.840 is this has been in the work for a long time. Yeah, 2:30:12.920 --> 2:30:15.400 which which which is the which is the this? Uh, 2:30:16.360 --> 2:30:19.680 dual power gathering. And yeah, I guess you want to 2:30:19.680 --> 2:30:24.440 talk about what what that is because yeah, yeah, well, 2:30:24.480 --> 2:30:26.400 you know, we've all been sitting around the past couple 2:30:26.440 --> 2:30:30.119 of years dreaming about being together, and so I think 2:30:30.160 --> 2:30:31.920 this is kind of the fruit of that dream. Right 2:30:32.680 --> 2:30:36.000 coming up at the end of July, UH, we're inviting 2:30:36.040 --> 2:30:39.600 everyone out to the Indiana Dunes for a camping trip. 2:30:40.600 --> 2:30:45.080 UH and during that time, we're hoping to see a 2:30:45.280 --> 2:30:53.000 collaboratively produced event that incorporates everything that the participants can 2:30:53.360 --> 2:30:57.160 bring to it, which we know far exceeds the uh 2:30:58.040 --> 2:31:00.959 sort of even the scope and vision of the Orangizing Body. 2:31:01.160 --> 2:31:06.280 So we're really trying to, um, just create a space 2:31:06.400 --> 2:31:09.600 for people to come together who are interested in these ideas, 2:31:09.840 --> 2:31:13.040 who have various levels of experience working with it. That 2:31:13.080 --> 2:31:16.960 will be valuable to everybody, from people who are brand 2:31:17.040 --> 2:31:18.920 new to this stuff and just want to learn more 2:31:18.920 --> 2:31:20.840 about it, to people who have have been doing it 2:31:20.959 --> 2:31:25.320 for years, for decades even UM. And yeah, that's sort 2:31:25.360 --> 2:31:28.960 of sort of the the underlying ambition of it is 2:31:29.000 --> 2:31:30.960 to get people together in space. You know, a lot 2:31:31.000 --> 2:31:33.360 of us have been to these kinds of events before 2:31:33.920 --> 2:31:36.080 and felt like the most important thing that we got 2:31:36.120 --> 2:31:39.199 out of that was the relationships that we were able 2:31:39.200 --> 2:31:41.200 to build and the people that we were able to 2:31:41.280 --> 2:31:45.520 meet that we could then carry on ongoing dialogues with, 2:31:45.760 --> 2:31:49.119 and that we could find inspiration uh in in those 2:31:49.200 --> 2:31:52.879 dialogues and in those connections that would birth new projects 2:31:53.120 --> 2:31:56.440 that you know, we don't yet know are even possible. 2:31:56.680 --> 2:31:58.240 And so this is kind of, at least for me, 2:31:58.360 --> 2:32:01.520 like that's the really important ending sighting force of the 2:32:01.840 --> 2:32:08.400 of the plan. Yeah. Yeah, I think that, like they're 2:32:08.720 --> 2:32:10.920 the some of the things about this I think are 2:32:11.000 --> 2:32:15.520 really like it's been like really a collaborative effort to 2:32:15.879 --> 2:32:18.840 come up with this thing. Like we had the discussions 2:32:18.840 --> 2:32:20.760 about this is a thing that needs that we thought 2:32:20.840 --> 2:32:24.280 need to happen because at the end of like by 2:32:24.560 --> 2:32:28.160 the end of the middle of one, we're like, look, clearly, 2:32:28.720 --> 2:32:32.000 we've all been through so many different experiences over the 2:32:32.120 --> 2:32:37.200 last ten, fifteen, twenty years. At this point some of 2:32:37.280 --> 2:32:41.039 us are getting to be elders, and um, we uh 2:32:41.280 --> 2:32:45.960 and we need to like, um, it feels like it's 2:32:46.040 --> 2:32:48.800 now is an excellent a really great time to have 2:32:49.200 --> 2:32:54.440 like a actual conversation about where we where we're coming, 2:32:54.520 --> 2:32:58.560 where we are, where we're coming from and where we're going, 2:32:59.200 --> 2:33:05.119 and how do we translate these experiences into like networks 2:33:05.720 --> 2:33:11.360 of like trusting relationships and sharing, um sharing of all 2:33:11.440 --> 2:33:14.120 this knowledge is like we need to debrief like the 2:33:14.360 --> 2:33:16.880 like the past five years I think in particular, have 2:33:16.959 --> 2:33:20.240 been like it's like crammed. It feels like, you know, 2:33:20.360 --> 2:33:23.680 the whole saying like some some years nothing happens, and 2:33:23.800 --> 2:33:28.040 some you know, in some months decades happen or phrasing 2:33:28.120 --> 2:33:31.080 or whatever, and it's like so much stuff has come. 2:33:31.640 --> 2:33:34.080 We've all gone through so many things and come to 2:33:35.400 --> 2:33:39.280 like uh, and we're seeing people who didn't have like 2:33:39.440 --> 2:33:43.520 maybe a stance on various political things or are like 2:33:43.680 --> 2:33:47.560 seeing their communities torn apart by like the real lived 2:33:47.600 --> 2:33:50.640 experience of like climate change and wants to and need 2:33:50.720 --> 2:33:52.400 to do something about it. That sort of thing like 2:33:52.480 --> 2:33:55.560 bringing in people who have lots of experience with people 2:33:55.600 --> 2:33:59.120 who have maybe are just now figuring things out and 2:34:00.080 --> 2:34:03.039 really kind of like musing and taking this as an 2:34:03.120 --> 2:34:07.400 opportunity to maybe to generate new knowledge so that we're 2:34:07.440 --> 2:34:11.080 going to be like kind of like clarifying what we've 2:34:11.120 --> 2:34:16.320 gone through and where we're heading, and um get people 2:34:17.040 --> 2:34:20.320 like in the same space who like might as a 2:34:20.760 --> 2:34:23.160 like I do a lot of union ship, So I'm 2:34:23.200 --> 2:34:25.800 always thinking about how do I get like rank and 2:34:25.840 --> 2:34:29.400 file union radicals in the same space as like a 2:34:30.280 --> 2:34:34.120 like a neighborhood abolitionist or a tenant union organizer or 2:34:34.240 --> 2:34:37.600 a community land trust and getting all these like different 2:34:37.680 --> 2:34:41.120 groups because together and then like thinking about how they 2:34:41.200 --> 2:34:44.680 overlap in support and build off of each other because 2:34:44.840 --> 2:34:47.960 we I think the operating theory of many of people 2:34:48.000 --> 2:34:52.920 who are involved in this is that every context is 2:34:53.000 --> 2:34:56.280 different where we're organizing, but many there are many kind 2:34:56.320 --> 2:34:59.600 of principles that can kind of translate across context, but 2:35:01.440 --> 2:35:04.680 the context will shape very like like the I was 2:35:04.720 --> 2:35:08.560 just talking with one of the organizers who's like twenty 2:35:08.600 --> 2:35:12.000 minutes away over in northwest Indiana, and you're like in Gary, 2:35:12.360 --> 2:35:16.080 and you know, those areas and their contexts for building 2:35:16.200 --> 2:35:19.440 something like a an ecosystem too power organizations is going 2:35:19.480 --> 2:35:22.080 to be very different from my context where I am 2:35:22.800 --> 2:35:28.720 like down the street from this big global center of 2:35:29.440 --> 2:35:33.640 capital that's like University of Chicago and like, and it's 2:35:34.160 --> 2:35:37.280 doing all in my neighborhoods being gentrified by two billion 2:35:37.320 --> 2:35:41.560 dollar corporations. And I've got a big nurse union, whereas 2:35:41.640 --> 2:35:44.280 they're in the middle of like a neighbor community that's 2:35:44.320 --> 2:35:47.960 being actively divested and destroyed, like just like eating away 2:35:48.080 --> 2:35:51.920 at by like because capital just pulling out and has 2:35:51.959 --> 2:35:54.840 been doing that for basically as long as you've all been. 2:35:56.560 --> 2:35:58.680 At the same time, y'all are dealing with the same 2:35:59.320 --> 2:36:04.360 like biosphere complications and climate change implications, and so yeah, 2:36:04.400 --> 2:36:07.840 we're thinking about the ways in which like the kinds 2:36:07.879 --> 2:36:10.560 of affiliations that makes sense for us to be successful 2:36:10.600 --> 2:36:14.760 in our projects are like, you know, they're not just 2:36:14.959 --> 2:36:17.160 they're not just local, they're not just national, they're not 2:36:17.240 --> 2:36:20.440 just continental. There's like a lot of different things that 2:36:20.480 --> 2:36:22.160 are going on there. And that's the only way for 2:36:22.240 --> 2:36:26.000 us to really like sort out who we need to 2:36:26.080 --> 2:36:28.880 be in coaligion with on any particular issue is to 2:36:28.959 --> 2:36:31.960 know everybody, uh and to try to understand better there 2:36:32.400 --> 2:36:36.320 they're specific contexts and their specific experiences. And I think 2:36:36.360 --> 2:36:39.600 there's like, you know, I think, you know, to to 2:36:39.800 --> 2:36:42.120 John's point about you know, how much has changed in 2:36:42.160 --> 2:36:44.360 the last two, you know, handful of years or whatever, 2:36:44.440 --> 2:36:46.520 I think one thing that we've all come away from 2:36:46.959 --> 2:36:50.560 the pace of change is pretty humbling. You know, um, 2:36:51.000 --> 2:36:53.840 I think we definitely all we gotta we got. We 2:36:53.959 --> 2:36:56.400 took in a bit of the humility around around that 2:36:56.800 --> 2:36:59.320 what is it that we actually need to do? We 2:36:59.400 --> 2:37:02.640 are definitely not prepared for it, you know, And it 2:37:02.760 --> 2:37:06.000 doesn't matter how many decades we've been doing this organizing work. 2:37:06.200 --> 2:37:09.760 We just are not ready for how quickly things are 2:37:09.879 --> 2:37:12.480 changing right now. And the only way for us to 2:37:12.520 --> 2:37:15.160 get ready is to make sure that we shore up 2:37:15.200 --> 2:37:18.320 and strengthen the networks of people that we can rely 2:37:18.480 --> 2:37:23.400 on to produce kind of positive interdependence um as we 2:37:23.520 --> 2:37:30.000 move forward with the continued chaos that is the contemporary world. Yeah, 2:37:30.440 --> 2:37:32.320 I mean. And then part of this is also like 2:37:32.440 --> 2:37:35.680 thinking about because the way this is structured, this isn't 2:37:35.760 --> 2:37:39.280 just like a series of panel discussions where we've like 2:37:39.360 --> 2:37:44.080 the organizers have curated like you're gonna listen to you know, uh, 2:37:44.560 --> 2:37:47.000 so and so who's like you know, a prominent tenant 2:37:47.120 --> 2:37:49.160 organizer so and so. It is like a prominent like 2:37:50.040 --> 2:37:54.440 uh like in like climate change direct action work. Like 2:37:55.160 --> 2:37:58.480 the goal is is that we like specifically chose a 2:37:58.600 --> 2:38:03.840 format and officially it's called like like an unconference. But 2:38:03.959 --> 2:38:05.760 the way I think of it is it's like which 2:38:06.240 --> 2:38:09.119 which comes out of tech, which I find kind of irritating, 2:38:09.680 --> 2:38:12.760 But that doesn't. But the core of the idea of 2:38:12.840 --> 2:38:15.840 the thing is is that we're coming into this space 2:38:16.280 --> 2:38:20.560 in generating new knowledge, not necessarily sitting there and receiving 2:38:20.600 --> 2:38:23.280 a bunch of knowledge from people who designate as like 2:38:23.480 --> 2:38:27.280 movement leaders or experts. That doesn't mean that people who 2:38:27.360 --> 2:38:29.800 don't have a lot of experience and a lot of 2:38:30.120 --> 2:38:32.119 like skills aren't going to be there. It just means 2:38:32.200 --> 2:38:35.560 that we're going to be. Because one of my things 2:38:35.680 --> 2:38:38.720 is popular education coming from the tradition of like pala 2:38:38.840 --> 2:38:44.840 Frere and like um everybody learning together is like it's 2:38:44.879 --> 2:38:48.600 like taking those principles and kind of like doing them 2:38:48.640 --> 2:38:52.680 in parallel in various circles. Where there will be a 2:38:52.760 --> 2:38:56.400 circle here of like cooperative organizers or people who want 2:38:56.440 --> 2:38:58.040 to get coops off the ground. Will be a circle 2:38:58.160 --> 2:39:01.040 here of people doing land us work. Will be a 2:39:01.120 --> 2:39:03.720 circle here of like unionists. There will be a circle 2:39:03.840 --> 2:39:10.080 here of people doing like abolition work, and or interest 2:39:10.120 --> 2:39:11.920 are people who are interested in all those things are 2:39:11.959 --> 2:39:14.360 getting those sorts of things off the ground, and as 2:39:14.480 --> 2:39:19.000 they work through like a like they present tell stories 2:39:19.560 --> 2:39:23.360 share ideas, do debriefs on like the various things that 2:39:23.520 --> 2:39:26.640 we've all been going through over you know whatever. How 2:39:26.720 --> 2:39:30.520 far back our timeline is depending on how far which 2:39:30.600 --> 2:39:35.200 elders decided to attend UM, but then taking that knowledge 2:39:35.480 --> 2:39:38.000 with our facilitators and then being like, you know what, 2:39:38.160 --> 2:39:40.440 I think that these two conversations are happening kind of 2:39:40.520 --> 2:39:43.480 like in parallel would be better if they were merged 2:39:43.560 --> 2:39:46.440 together and beginning to kind of like build that sort 2:39:46.480 --> 2:39:50.119 of like and so the idea isn't necessarily come away 2:39:50.600 --> 2:39:53.920 with like a pre like we're not setting up like 2:39:54.080 --> 2:39:58.000 a like a predetermined set of conclusions for people we 2:39:58.240 --> 2:40:01.600 believe and based off of we've been having monthly community 2:40:01.680 --> 2:40:03.959 calls for people who are going to be attending. All 2:40:04.040 --> 2:40:06.720 the different groups of folks who will be coming to 2:40:06.840 --> 2:40:09.000 this is going to be I think like the depth 2:40:09.080 --> 2:40:12.480 of experience is going to be really phenomenal UM and 2:40:12.680 --> 2:40:16.200 people coming from We definitely have people confirmed who are 2:40:16.240 --> 2:40:20.240 coming from Canada, people who we may be having folks 2:40:20.360 --> 2:40:25.080 with experience the indigenous communities is uh in Mexico, we 2:40:25.200 --> 2:40:30.240 maybe have We're fairly confident we're gonna have people who 2:40:30.280 --> 2:40:34.040 are like just come from areas like northern Syria and 2:40:34.120 --> 2:40:39.240 iraq Um and taking all these different ideas and experiences 2:40:39.280 --> 2:40:44.560 and then generating next like coming to new conclusions, maybe 2:40:44.959 --> 2:40:48.040 unexpected conclusions or things that we didn't quite that we 2:40:48.120 --> 2:40:52.560 weren't anticipating, but maybe asking new questions. Right Like, this 2:40:52.760 --> 2:40:54.960 is a kind of intended to be a prefigure of 2:40:55.000 --> 2:40:59.120 space for engaging with things where we don't know what 2:40:59.280 --> 2:41:01.039 the right answer is. And I think we all need 2:41:01.120 --> 2:41:02.520 to release sit with the fact that we do not 2:41:02.760 --> 2:41:06.600 have like a clear right solution into the problems that 2:41:06.680 --> 2:41:09.879 we're facing right now. Like I've been kind of pulling 2:41:09.879 --> 2:41:12.280 on the slogan a little. It's like no gods, no masters, 2:41:12.280 --> 2:41:15.360 no right answers, you know, just like get used to it. 2:41:18.000 --> 2:41:19.800 We need to be more creative and we need to 2:41:19.879 --> 2:41:23.440 be more open to experimentation. And you know, there's just 2:41:23.560 --> 2:41:25.840 a lot of there's a lot of stuff that's going 2:41:25.879 --> 2:41:28.160 to be coming at us fast, and you know, this 2:41:28.360 --> 2:41:30.360 is a we we we hope this can be a 2:41:30.400 --> 2:41:33.040 space where we can kind of take some time to 2:41:33.200 --> 2:41:35.520 slowly get square with what it is we're going to 2:41:35.640 --> 2:41:37.600 have to be thinking about, even if we don't know 2:41:38.560 --> 2:41:43.440 what to do exactly yet. So I had I had 2:41:43.480 --> 2:41:46.560 a really good experience where I was listening to like 2:41:46.760 --> 2:41:49.520 one of the like a person who came out of 2:41:49.560 --> 2:41:53.920 Act Up giving a talk in my neighborhood, and she 2:41:54.160 --> 2:41:57.560 was saying, because we had had questions, is this going 2:41:57.600 --> 2:41:59.520 to be about a lot of theory? Are we gonna 2:41:59.520 --> 2:42:05.519 be talking about of abstract stuff? And um, this organizer 2:42:05.760 --> 2:42:09.920 was like, you know, Actup had no theory, right they did. 2:42:10.959 --> 2:42:14.400 They took action, and the theory followed afterwards. And so 2:42:14.560 --> 2:42:17.680 the idea that we're like necessarily having coming to this 2:42:17.879 --> 2:42:21.960 with like the right answers already figured out is just 2:42:23.080 --> 2:42:25.400 not like something that I think it's going to be 2:42:25.440 --> 2:42:29.000 a super generative discussion. The idea of coming up with 2:42:29.280 --> 2:42:33.320 like coming up with orientations and thinking about like where 2:42:33.440 --> 2:42:36.720 we are heading kind of in a general sense, and 2:42:36.800 --> 2:42:40.000 then seeing how that unfolds and builds is I think 2:42:40.920 --> 2:42:43.400 a big, key, key aspect of what we're trying to 2:42:43.480 --> 2:42:47.480 do when we come together. We're just not to say yeah, 2:42:47.520 --> 2:42:49.040 which is not to say that there won't be theory, 2:42:49.200 --> 2:42:51.080 because that's not up to us. That's up to y'all. 2:42:51.760 --> 2:42:56.200 So you know, um, I probably don't know like what 2:42:56.320 --> 2:43:00.240 I'm really interested in is having conversations about like doing 2:43:00.240 --> 2:43:02.800 mental health care, you know, and like, for me, the 2:43:02.920 --> 2:43:06.160 theory is less interesting than you know, like talking about 2:43:06.200 --> 2:43:08.240 what we actually need in the spaces that we work in. 2:43:08.480 --> 2:43:10.120 But that's you know, that's where I'm coming from, and 2:43:10.160 --> 2:43:13.040 everybody else is coming at this from their own perspective too, 2:43:13.080 --> 2:43:15.400 So I'm really excited to see what people bring to 2:43:15.520 --> 2:43:17.160 that space and what we can get out of it. 2:43:17.800 --> 2:43:22.240 Um by just thinking that we all are contributing something 2:43:22.520 --> 2:43:25.960 constructive to that conversation. And then also there's gonna be 2:43:25.959 --> 2:43:28.560 a lot of discussion about like literal practical skills, like 2:43:29.040 --> 2:43:32.600 here's how you like, here's how you uh. This has 2:43:32.720 --> 2:43:34.720 always been the perennial thing. This is how you pick 2:43:34.760 --> 2:43:37.400 a lot, This is how you uh, this is how 2:43:37.520 --> 2:43:41.960 you organize comms at like at like a like on 2:43:42.040 --> 2:43:46.480 a picket line. This is how you pull together uh 2:43:47.560 --> 2:43:50.360 a demand letter for like a list for like tenants, 2:43:50.720 --> 2:43:52.680 like you know, these are the sorts of things that 2:43:52.920 --> 2:43:55.119 like we're gonna be talking, We're going to be doing 2:43:55.800 --> 2:44:00.160 concrete skill shares. Plus these discussions about our experience is 2:44:00.800 --> 2:44:04.440 and sharing our stories and you know, hopefully we're gonna 2:44:04.480 --> 2:44:06.200 come away from this. A big goal of it is 2:44:06.280 --> 2:44:10.959 to um come up with a lot of like different 2:44:11.440 --> 2:44:15.520 like um, just like content. We're going to be recording 2:44:15.720 --> 2:44:20.280 videos and uh like uh audio and like also and 2:44:20.320 --> 2:44:22.800 then transcribing things and writing things up. And we're hoping 2:44:22.879 --> 2:44:24.520 that once we're then we're gonna have a big report 2:44:24.560 --> 2:44:28.320 that we can share out with people who can't attend. Yeah, 2:44:28.360 --> 2:44:32.880 privacy concerns obviously considered. So yeah, for sure, Yeah, there 2:44:33.720 --> 2:44:37.160 is Consent is a big is a big thing with 2:44:37.800 --> 2:44:43.119 us as organizers. She should help. So yeah, you would think, 2:44:43.400 --> 2:44:48.480 but you know, not everyone is down as you would imagine. Okay, 2:44:49.520 --> 2:44:52.120 so basically we're building a perfect little utopia for like 2:44:52.280 --> 2:44:54.320 four days and you'll come out because we're going to 2:44:54.400 --> 2:45:00.200 fix the revolution. So kidding obviously on on on kind 2:45:00.200 --> 2:45:03.160 of crete level, Like what does like a day here 2:45:03.400 --> 2:45:05.280 look like? Like what do what are what? What what 2:45:05.680 --> 2:45:08.280 are we doing? Oh that's fun, that's a fun question. 2:45:08.600 --> 2:45:12.080 Uh if I may, John, Yeah, yeah, go for it. Um. 2:45:12.240 --> 2:45:14.760 What we're thinking right now, basically, is it a day. 2:45:14.800 --> 2:45:17.000 It looks like we get up in the morning, we 2:45:17.160 --> 2:45:20.160 drink coffee, we have breakfast, and we have a little 2:45:20.200 --> 2:45:22.879 assembly check in to see how things are going, if 2:45:22.920 --> 2:45:25.280 we need to make any major adjustments, and we put 2:45:25.400 --> 2:45:29.400 up a uh sort of schedule for the afternoon's events 2:45:29.480 --> 2:45:33.040 that was populated from the conversation that was happening in 2:45:33.080 --> 2:45:36.200 the evening the night before, and anything that anybody wants 2:45:36.240 --> 2:45:40.240 to bring up to that schedule that happened between yesterday 2:45:40.520 --> 2:45:44.320 and this morning. Uh, then we're gonna roll off into 2:45:45.040 --> 2:45:49.720 um basically what would be some of the kind of 2:45:49.800 --> 2:45:52.640 like things we already know for sure that we wanted 2:45:52.680 --> 2:45:55.080 to see happening that we could get on a on 2:45:55.160 --> 2:45:57.000 a sort of schedule ahead of time. So some of 2:45:57.040 --> 2:45:59.680 these skill shares that were planned that would require kind 2:45:59.680 --> 2:46:03.280 of like replanning or maybe some discussions that people reached 2:46:03.320 --> 2:46:05.240 out ahead of time that they definitely wanted to have 2:46:05.760 --> 2:46:07.920 so that stuff would be happening earlier in the day. 2:46:08.680 --> 2:46:11.160 Um that you know, we're we're talking about having sort 2:46:11.160 --> 2:46:13.600 of just like sandwich bars and you know, make your 2:46:13.640 --> 2:46:16.120 own lunch kind of situations going on. There should be 2:46:16.200 --> 2:46:19.800 a lot of different things happening in different geographical locations 2:46:19.920 --> 2:46:21.960 on the site, so you kind of get get a 2:46:22.080 --> 2:46:24.000 choice of where you want to go. It's not like 2:46:24.080 --> 2:46:26.600 there's one big event. Um, we're going to try to 2:46:26.640 --> 2:46:29.520 group things that are sort of thematically similar in so 2:46:29.680 --> 2:46:31.640 that they're nearby each other in case you want to 2:46:31.680 --> 2:46:34.200 go around and see, um what the different kind of 2:46:34.200 --> 2:46:35.800 stuff is going to be. And then in the afternoon 2:46:35.879 --> 2:46:38.280 it's going to be like I mean, okay, of course 2:46:38.320 --> 2:46:40.880 this is like how we're intending right now. The afternoon 2:46:40.959 --> 2:46:45.800 would be the discussions and skill shares and events and 2:46:46.240 --> 2:46:50.200 circles and spaces that um, we're generated out of the 2:46:50.280 --> 2:46:53.120 conversations that have been happening in space so that people 2:46:53.240 --> 2:46:56.000 came and thought, you know, we had this conversation yesterday 2:46:56.080 --> 2:46:58.120 that really inspired me. Let's talk about this, and I'm 2:46:58.160 --> 2:46:59.680 going to make space for that. So we're gonna have 2:46:59.760 --> 2:47:02.040 big map where you figure out where you want to go, 2:47:02.240 --> 2:47:04.119 and you're gonna be able to wander around and meet people. 2:47:04.320 --> 2:47:06.600 Were trying to incorporate a lot of events that make 2:47:06.640 --> 2:47:09.800 it easier to meet other people that you don't know yet. Um. 2:47:10.160 --> 2:47:12.600 Where there's gonna be tables where you can do arts 2:47:12.640 --> 2:47:15.640 and crafts. There's gonna be game space for whatever kind 2:47:15.640 --> 2:47:17.880 of games you want to play. There's gonna be places 2:47:17.920 --> 2:47:20.279 for kids to hang out. There's gonna be a quiet 2:47:20.360 --> 2:47:23.360 tent where you can take some contemplation time. You know, 2:47:23.400 --> 2:47:24.920 at some point we want to do it like a 2:47:25.120 --> 2:47:27.760 kind of brief circle for people to deal with what 2:47:27.879 --> 2:47:30.080 they've been kind of going through in the world. And 2:47:30.800 --> 2:47:35.520 you know some uh you know, utopia, envisioning arts space, 2:47:35.720 --> 2:47:38.680 you know, these kinds of things like where um, you know, 2:47:38.760 --> 2:47:41.200 somebody wants to teach someone else a dance. Like that's 2:47:41.240 --> 2:47:43.000 the kind of thing that we're really hoping can go on. 2:47:43.200 --> 2:47:46.840 In the afternoon. Uh, then we would be feeding everybody dinner, 2:47:47.320 --> 2:47:49.119 and we kind of had this idea we've been playing 2:47:49.160 --> 2:47:52.680 with that we would have two campfires after dinner, and 2:47:53.040 --> 2:47:55.640 one campfire will have kind of an open forum where 2:47:55.680 --> 2:47:58.520 anybody can talk for like ten, fifteen, twenty minutes, you 2:47:58.560 --> 2:48:00.960 know whatever however long people need who are there, depending 2:48:01.000 --> 2:48:04.320 on how popular that is, and just kind of air 2:48:04.480 --> 2:48:06.920 everything that's in their head. And we'll have a note 2:48:06.959 --> 2:48:09.080 taker so we can try to incorporate what comes out 2:48:09.120 --> 2:48:12.640 of those discussions into the next days agenda. Um. And 2:48:12.720 --> 2:48:15.040 so that's sort of like what we were what we 2:48:15.160 --> 2:48:17.760 were envisioning. And then for the other campfire, because people 2:48:17.760 --> 2:48:21.480 who don't don't forget this, the other the other the 2:48:21.560 --> 2:48:24.520 other camp fire for people who are like done with talk, 2:48:25.160 --> 2:48:27.400 I need to just sit and stare at and flames 2:48:27.440 --> 2:48:31.039 for a little bit. Yeah, I imagine I'll be going 2:48:31.120 --> 2:48:33.320 back and forth between the fires, so you know, that's 2:48:33.320 --> 2:48:35.800 also an option. But the idea is to get kind 2:48:35.840 --> 2:48:38.879 of like somewhere between I think when we were calling 2:48:38.959 --> 2:48:41.199 us like somewhere between a conference and a music festival, 2:48:41.600 --> 2:48:44.480 you know what I mean, Like there where you're able 2:48:44.520 --> 2:48:46.280 to sort of move around and you don't have to 2:48:46.360 --> 2:48:48.480 go and sit in one place and do like, okay 2:48:48.560 --> 2:48:51.160 for this hour, this is where you know, it's it's 2:48:51.440 --> 2:48:53.880 it's meant to be a bit more informal, um and 2:48:53.959 --> 2:48:55.640 we're hoping that that makes a lot more space for 2:48:55.720 --> 2:48:58.400 people to sort of explore and people to meet other 2:48:58.480 --> 2:49:02.720 people that they don't already know. Because I don't know 2:49:02.720 --> 2:49:04.520 if that if that, if that sums up sort of 2:49:04.600 --> 2:49:06.240 like what I'm imagining, because that's like, you know, that's 2:49:06.280 --> 2:49:07.880 the spirit. So I think if that's the question, like 2:49:07.920 --> 2:49:10.080 what does the date look like, well, hopefully it's fun. 2:49:10.720 --> 2:49:12.880 You know, that's kind of the main the main thing 2:49:12.920 --> 2:49:16.600 we're thinking here, So make it sort of low stress 2:49:16.760 --> 2:49:19.160 and low stakes place that we can talk about some 2:49:19.280 --> 2:49:21.600 of the highest stress and highest stakes questions that we 2:49:21.720 --> 2:49:26.080 have to deal with. So yeah, and like that being said, 2:49:26.320 --> 2:49:30.600 like because we're modeling it this way specifically based on 2:49:30.760 --> 2:49:35.600 people's experience with like the Symbiosish Federations founding conference, that 2:49:35.720 --> 2:49:39.119 sort of thing where there were a lot of stakes 2:49:39.280 --> 2:49:42.040 and people were trying to kind of like funnel different 2:49:42.080 --> 2:49:45.359 discussions through different ways. And this is not a necessarily 2:49:45.440 --> 2:49:47.200 critique of how that all went down. It's just like 2:49:47.360 --> 2:49:52.720 based on our experience and our experiences with those sorts 2:49:52.720 --> 2:49:57.240 of things. The goal is too for this to be 2:49:57.800 --> 2:50:01.280 if it's successful the first of many of these sorts 2:50:01.320 --> 2:50:05.080 of things, UM, many of these kind of gatherings and discussions, 2:50:05.160 --> 2:50:07.039 and to provide a model for how it could happen. 2:50:07.600 --> 2:50:12.160 But to keep um, we deliberately decided that this we're 2:50:12.200 --> 2:50:13.800 not going to make like a bit We're not going 2:50:13.840 --> 2:50:16.960 to have big points of unity debate and discussion and 2:50:17.080 --> 2:50:21.080 voting on assembly sort of thing. We will use assemblies 2:50:21.160 --> 2:50:23.320 for you know, certain things like setting up like our 2:50:23.840 --> 2:50:25.960 community agreements and that sort of stuff, and kind of 2:50:26.040 --> 2:50:29.520 like getting the days rolling and kind of getting the 2:50:29.600 --> 2:50:33.200 days closed. But the goal is like to not is 2:50:33.320 --> 2:50:38.480 to bring people into conversation who haven't who maybe don't 2:50:38.520 --> 2:50:42.800 have the basis of trust for those bigger collective like 2:50:42.959 --> 2:50:47.040 discussions yet, but maybe they will later. But the goal 2:50:47.160 --> 2:50:51.240 is for now is we're getting We're building and expanding 2:50:51.280 --> 2:50:55.440 our networks. We're building, expanding our trust with different people 2:50:56.120 --> 2:50:58.880 and building expanding our knowledge so that we can go 2:50:59.040 --> 2:51:01.640 out and do kind of work that we think we 2:51:01.720 --> 2:51:04.400 need to do to I don't know survives as a 2:51:04.480 --> 2:51:08.080 species on this planet. So um, that's one of the 2:51:08.120 --> 2:51:10.240 reasons why if there are some people are like, oh, 2:51:10.400 --> 2:51:12.279 I don't know, it seems really kind of wishy washy. 2:51:12.640 --> 2:51:15.720 It's very that was a very deliberate decision based on 2:51:16.000 --> 2:51:19.199 previous experience from organizers who have been to these sorts 2:51:19.240 --> 2:51:23.040 of things. And the goal is really too, to have 2:51:23.320 --> 2:51:25.879 a place where we can have discussions about high stakes 2:51:25.959 --> 2:51:30.119 issues without being so invested in it that we feel 2:51:30.200 --> 2:51:34.600 like if our concept of how to solve that problem 2:51:35.160 --> 2:51:39.480 doesn't come out as the like solution, that we've somehow failed. 2:51:40.080 --> 2:51:43.960 So it's like, yeah, I was to say that I 2:51:44.000 --> 2:51:45.400 think one of the one of these things that you 2:51:45.560 --> 2:51:48.040 that you brought up there, that's really important. It's like 2:51:48.160 --> 2:51:51.160 not even just in these previous conferences or congresses or 2:51:51.440 --> 2:51:53.520 gatherings that we've been to have we seen to be 2:51:53.600 --> 2:51:56.040 a problem. But basically, at least I can speak for 2:51:56.160 --> 2:51:58.960 myself in a lot of organizing spaces that I've been 2:51:59.040 --> 2:52:01.880 in over the past, you know, like fifteen years that 2:52:02.000 --> 2:52:05.840 I've been pretty active in in the organizing universe. Um, 2:52:07.959 --> 2:52:11.000 basically that one of the main problems that we have 2:52:11.320 --> 2:52:13.640 with this kind of like space of trust that we 2:52:14.320 --> 2:52:16.600 definitely know that we need to be able to work 2:52:16.640 --> 2:52:19.280 together and moving forward, is that we don't really have 2:52:19.360 --> 2:52:21.320 shared language a lot of the time. And we think 2:52:21.360 --> 2:52:23.080 we do because we use the same words, but we 2:52:23.160 --> 2:52:25.959 often use them to mean different things, or we often 2:52:26.040 --> 2:52:28.280 use different words to mean the same things as well. 2:52:28.400 --> 2:52:30.600 And then we come from kind of different organizing cultures 2:52:30.680 --> 2:52:33.280 and a lot of different places like that some are 2:52:33.400 --> 2:52:37.320 more are less. We should say that maybe that there 2:52:37.600 --> 2:52:41.040 there are different places where you show solidarity in a 2:52:41.080 --> 2:52:43.880 different way, you show good faith, and you show that 2:52:43.959 --> 2:52:46.160 you're committed in a different way. What it means to 2:52:46.240 --> 2:52:48.920 be democratic in a space seems different depending on this 2:52:49.080 --> 2:52:51.280 on the tradition that you that you may be come from. 2:52:51.360 --> 2:52:53.560 So what we're really hoping to do is kind of 2:52:53.600 --> 2:52:55.640 makes space to incorporate all of that. So we were 2:52:56.120 --> 2:52:58.160 was joking it was a camping trip, where many camping 2:52:58.200 --> 2:53:01.800 trips fit, you know that like that there should be 2:53:01.879 --> 2:53:04.360 an opportunity for people to kind of like learn to 2:53:04.440 --> 2:53:08.400 talk past those those barriers that we might have to 2:53:09.320 --> 2:53:12.360 understanding each other, and like that success would really look 2:53:12.440 --> 2:53:17.360 like people coming away believing in other people's commitment to 2:53:17.480 --> 2:53:20.400 get this done and with the kind of contacts that 2:53:20.520 --> 2:53:23.680 they need to support each other moving forward as things 2:53:23.760 --> 2:53:26.120 come up in different places, as opposed to just like 2:53:26.879 --> 2:53:29.760 here's a solution, like here's a blueprint for how to 2:53:29.800 --> 2:53:32.760 get this done. You know that relationship that you have 2:53:32.920 --> 2:53:34.920 with a person who has had that experience in the 2:53:34.959 --> 2:53:37.360 past is going to be way more valuable than any 2:53:37.440 --> 2:53:40.520 document they give you based on their experience, because you're 2:53:40.560 --> 2:53:42.800 gonna be able to say, well, ship, I wasn't expecting 2:53:42.879 --> 2:53:45.640 this to happen, Like what do we do? And then 2:53:45.680 --> 2:53:48.080 you can talk through that with them, and like that's 2:53:48.160 --> 2:53:51.560 really I think that's really the foundation of our being 2:53:51.600 --> 2:53:54.000 able to share this knowledge with each other is that 2:53:54.640 --> 2:53:57.680 we have the opportunity to kind of engage in these 2:53:57.760 --> 2:54:02.200 ways that are more focused on the kind of just 2:54:03.600 --> 2:54:07.120 the sort of dynamism of the of the challenges that 2:54:07.240 --> 2:54:11.240 we're dealing with right now. So emergence is a big thing. 2:54:11.520 --> 2:54:14.039 Things are always gonna like things that are always going 2:54:14.120 --> 2:54:18.560 to be changing, Like, uh, we are we need to 2:54:18.600 --> 2:54:23.560 be prepared to deal with a world that's gonna be 2:54:23.680 --> 2:54:28.240 throwing challenges at us that like we haven't like we 2:54:28.360 --> 2:54:32.840 haven't had solutions for and like because we're going through 2:54:33.040 --> 2:54:37.440 that's like really kind of like catastrophic like uh the 2:54:37.560 --> 2:54:43.920 moments of like uh climate change and um, I mean, 2:54:44.000 --> 2:54:45.680 I don't know how else to say it, but like 2:54:46.280 --> 2:54:49.280 and and so it's it's like engendering the idea, the 2:54:49.440 --> 2:54:55.600 idea that we're constantly evaluating what's happening around us, both 2:54:55.720 --> 2:54:59.440 like at our local level and across the regions and 2:54:59.600 --> 2:55:03.760 global and then taking new knowledge in and coming up 2:55:03.800 --> 2:55:07.000 with new solutions um in a real like in like 2:55:07.120 --> 2:55:11.279 a truly experimental way, like thinking about things is like experiments, 2:55:11.400 --> 2:55:13.000 and how we're going to like come up with new 2:55:13.120 --> 2:55:17.240 solutions to these problems because it's just well, like as 2:55:17.280 --> 2:55:22.920 we kept telling people, because when we're out there trying 2:55:22.959 --> 2:55:26.280 to bring groups in everyone's selling us our capacity. This 2:55:26.400 --> 2:55:30.920 sounds great. Our capacity is incredibly low. Uh. And that 2:55:31.120 --> 2:55:35.720 has just been across the entire spectrum of organizations, and 2:55:35.800 --> 2:55:39.960 that includes huge, big, put together organizations like you know 2:55:41.000 --> 2:55:45.960 unions versus little mutual a groups. Everybody is dealing with 2:55:46.120 --> 2:55:51.480 this like feeling of exhaustioning like capacity. Our goal is 2:55:51.560 --> 2:55:54.199 to get people together so that they can build capacity 2:55:54.720 --> 2:55:58.400 UM through these discussions and to be prepared for things, 2:55:58.440 --> 2:56:00.960 because capacity is always going to be an issue. And 2:56:01.040 --> 2:56:03.520 our goal is to get people to this point where 2:56:04.200 --> 2:56:10.120 because they're um, their mindset is okay, new challenge, Let's 2:56:10.160 --> 2:56:12.720 think about it critically and come up with solutions that 2:56:12.800 --> 2:56:15.000 fit this moment as supposed to keep trying to force 2:56:15.120 --> 2:56:20.280 things into UM preset like easy. I mean, I don't 2:56:20.280 --> 2:56:22.959 want to say easy, but like I think that sometimes 2:56:23.120 --> 2:56:25.880 like everyone's trying to mind history for the like the 2:56:26.400 --> 2:56:29.760 one weird trick to solve all these problems. And I 2:56:29.879 --> 2:56:32.440 think that the one weird trick is that human beings 2:56:32.600 --> 2:56:39.080 are creative, critical thinking machines. Like our our brain is 2:56:39.160 --> 2:56:42.280 like this thing for taking in information and generating new 2:56:42.560 --> 2:56:46.520 new thought and action, and we need to embrace that 2:56:47.360 --> 2:56:49.840 UM because if we don't. I don't think we're going 2:56:49.879 --> 2:56:52.879 to be very successful certainly. And the yeah, and these 2:56:52.920 --> 2:56:56.600 times of just increasing uncertainty, that kind of humility and 2:56:56.680 --> 2:57:01.840 flexibility and like continue building of comfort with that uncertainty 2:57:01.959 --> 2:57:04.200 is going to be super essential to our being able 2:57:04.280 --> 2:57:07.640 to maintain even sort of like the basic ability to 2:57:07.800 --> 2:57:09.800 take action. And I think so we're going to have 2:57:09.920 --> 2:57:13.800 to like continue to like to lean into that uncertainty 2:57:14.040 --> 2:57:16.240 and to sort of I think, you know, kind of 2:57:16.320 --> 2:57:21.400 historically the being comfortable with things changing and being comfortable 2:57:21.400 --> 2:57:23.720 with uncertainty is actually one of our great strengths, right 2:57:23.720 --> 2:57:26.640 because we can actually start to get moving while everybody 2:57:26.680 --> 2:57:28.800 else is still going, what the hell? You know? And 2:57:29.000 --> 2:57:31.040 so I think, you know, that's going to definitely be 2:57:31.120 --> 2:57:34.840 something that's going to serve us. And Yeah, anyway, I 2:57:35.400 --> 2:57:39.040 have I have one last I question on an extremely 2:57:39.120 --> 2:57:43.160 practical level, which is like what is the like facility 2:57:43.240 --> 2:57:46.720 situation here? Like how what what are what are people 2:57:46.800 --> 2:57:53.520 sleeping in? Uh? So, like right now where we like 2:57:53.720 --> 2:58:00.080 we have camp space reserved for people, um, and so 2:58:01.440 --> 2:58:05.040 we understand the camping is not always super accessible, but 2:58:05.280 --> 2:58:09.039 we are very fortunate that like the National Lake Shore 2:58:10.480 --> 2:58:15.000 has specific accessible facilities UM for folks, and we do 2:58:15.240 --> 2:58:20.520 have disabled like UH comrades coming to this event, and 2:58:20.600 --> 2:58:25.000 we're working on making sure that those UH that their 2:58:25.240 --> 2:58:29.840 particular needs don't keep them from participating fully in the events. 2:58:30.320 --> 2:58:35.120 There's UM the discussions and circles themselves will be UM 2:58:35.400 --> 2:58:39.240 at like shelter space UM a bit away from where 2:58:39.280 --> 2:58:43.520 the camping is happening, so we're organizing transport between us 2:58:43.560 --> 2:58:48.880 to split those spaces UM. For people who cannot camp, 2:58:49.520 --> 2:58:53.920 we are working organizing some hotel space for folks UM, 2:58:54.120 --> 2:58:56.640 and then for people who can camp but don't have 2:58:56.760 --> 2:59:01.200 any equipment. Our goal is to work going to UM 2:59:01.480 --> 2:59:07.040 basically acquire like enough camping equipment for a sizeable chunk 2:59:07.080 --> 2:59:11.000 of folks to come. And UH. It's like literally today 2:59:11.120 --> 2:59:15.200 walking through a Walmart with my daughter looking at their 2:59:15.400 --> 2:59:19.720 camp equipment in pricing out things like sleeping bags and 2:59:20.000 --> 2:59:25.600 camp like sleeping mattresses, intense that sort of thing. So yeah, 2:59:26.000 --> 2:59:28.480 if people have have stuff they want to donate to 2:59:28.560 --> 2:59:31.240 the cause to like, I think we should be able 2:59:31.280 --> 2:59:33.360 to take some of that in. I think we were 2:59:33.440 --> 2:59:38.400 just talking yesterday about the possibility of having like camp 2:59:38.480 --> 2:59:41.760 gear repair zone. So if you have things that you 2:59:41.840 --> 2:59:43.840 find at the thrift store that like a tour intent 2:59:44.040 --> 2:59:45.720 or something like that will help you fix it. You know, 2:59:45.800 --> 2:59:47.520 we just want to make sure that everybody has these 2:59:48.400 --> 2:59:51.040 supplies as well, because they're they're broadly useful. I know 2:59:51.480 --> 2:59:58.640 I've used my camping gear in uh some politically motivated 2:59:58.640 --> 3:00:01.720 ways in the best I think that it's not bad 3:00:01.760 --> 3:00:05.240 for people to have it if you need it. Also, 3:00:05.920 --> 3:00:10.680 you know, the camping aspect of it is also it's 3:00:10.720 --> 3:00:12.680 more of a feature than a bug. Like there's like 3:00:12.800 --> 3:00:16.359 a like so to so to speak, like the pandemic 3:00:16.520 --> 3:00:19.840 is not over yet, as we're like seeing right UM 3:00:20.000 --> 3:00:23.960 in spite of everything that like a ruling class is 3:00:24.040 --> 3:00:28.600 desperately trying to get us to agree to and so 3:00:29.440 --> 3:00:35.240 having um the accommodations outside and doing the doing the 3:00:35.280 --> 3:00:39.160 actual events like out of doors where there's lots of ventilatation. 3:00:41.040 --> 3:00:45.080 We think it is like right now one of these 3:00:45.160 --> 3:00:48.120 events so that we're not going to get so that 3:00:48.160 --> 3:00:51.160 people aren't going to come away from this UM getting sick, 3:00:51.320 --> 3:00:55.120 which is really important m from I mean as a 3:00:55.200 --> 3:01:01.080 person who's recovering from COVID COVID rounds two UM and 3:01:01.240 --> 3:01:03.600 as a healthcare worker. That was one of our big 3:01:04.120 --> 3:01:08.280 concerns because when we started making these plans, we really 3:01:08.320 --> 3:01:10.879 weren't sure what was going to be happening in terms 3:01:10.920 --> 3:01:14.320 of the pandemic, and having it out of doors was 3:01:14.360 --> 3:01:16.440 just like a sure fireway that we knew that we 3:01:16.480 --> 3:01:19.800 could at the very least, we can minimize the chances 3:01:19.959 --> 3:01:23.280 that people would be getting sick from just showing up 3:01:23.320 --> 3:01:27.520 and being s space together absolutely, and we're definitely encouraging 3:01:27.560 --> 3:01:30.320 people who are coming together with friends and comrades and 3:01:30.440 --> 3:01:33.560 little groups to self organize their camps as much as 3:01:33.640 --> 3:01:37.240 they would like to do that UM to sort of 3:01:37.360 --> 3:01:42.080 make plans together to limit the UM you know, the 3:01:42.520 --> 3:01:45.000 need for spaces. You know, we're sharing up tents and 3:01:45.120 --> 3:01:47.000 all this kind of stuff to the extent that people 3:01:47.000 --> 3:01:48.840 are comfortable with that that you know, people, if you 3:01:49.520 --> 3:01:51.440 need to get in touch with people from around you, 3:01:51.440 --> 3:01:53.360 if you don't know anybody, you can reach out to us. 3:01:53.400 --> 3:01:55.960 If we know anybody else who's looking for somebody to 3:01:56.640 --> 3:01:59.040 try to coordinate with, will definitely put you in touch to. 3:01:59.160 --> 3:02:00.880 Something we want to be able to do is like 3:02:01.520 --> 3:02:05.200 offer some of these connective services to help people UM 3:02:05.520 --> 3:02:07.480 to link up with people who are coming from from 3:02:07.520 --> 3:02:09.520 their areas or people who are interested in the same 3:02:09.600 --> 3:02:12.600 kinds of things. UM. And so we're kind of thinking 3:02:12.959 --> 3:02:16.360 of ourselves in the organizing body is facilitators of those 3:02:16.400 --> 3:02:19.440 connections and trying to imagine how what we do will 3:02:19.480 --> 3:02:23.320 make those connections most likely to happen. UM. So in 3:02:23.480 --> 3:02:25.920 terms of the of the facilities as well, I think 3:02:26.040 --> 3:02:28.920 we we've talked about trying to get some camp stoves 3:02:28.920 --> 3:02:30.880 together for people who need to use sort of a 3:02:30.959 --> 3:02:33.200 kitchen space to try to limit the amount of things 3:02:33.240 --> 3:02:35.640 that people need to bring for that, but definitely feel free, 3:02:36.280 --> 3:02:38.760 uh to bring bring your own stuff and and and 3:02:38.840 --> 3:02:41.640 set up whatever whatever you need and let us know 3:02:41.760 --> 3:02:43.560 if you need help from us. Well, we'll do our 3:02:43.600 --> 3:02:47.080 best to accommodate. And people are getting fed, like so 3:02:47.200 --> 3:02:51.160 we're playing and having meals arranged and that will be 3:02:51.360 --> 3:02:56.920 vegan and uh with the caveat that Folks who want 3:02:56.959 --> 3:03:01.320 to have separate food, like do their own self organized 3:03:01.400 --> 3:03:04.080 like cooking with that other thing, they that they're really 3:03:04.080 --> 3:03:09.119 committed to. UM. And we're playing and having like all 3:03:09.160 --> 3:03:12.240 the necessities of like lots of water, make sure that 3:03:12.400 --> 3:03:15.000 like we've got first aid lined up. There's gonna be 3:03:15.120 --> 3:03:18.560 street credics who are participating in the work of organizing 3:03:18.600 --> 3:03:24.320 all that harm reduction UM and just generally like like 3:03:24.560 --> 3:03:27.120 some of the other things that didn't really mentioned, Like 3:03:27.240 --> 3:03:28.880 we know that we're bringing a bunch of people with 3:03:28.920 --> 3:03:31.160 a lot of big ideas and big personalities together, and 3:03:31.240 --> 3:03:33.520 that means we're probably gonna have to deal with some conflict. 3:03:34.080 --> 3:03:40.240 Maybe I don't know, so having UM conflicts, uh, like 3:03:40.360 --> 3:03:42.680 people who are good at media and conflict. We're going 3:03:42.720 --> 3:03:45.600 to have a crew of people who do that. We're 3:03:45.640 --> 3:03:49.400 working on child watch training because this is going to 3:03:49.480 --> 3:03:53.560 be the family from space, making sure that we know 3:03:53.680 --> 3:03:56.080 how to take care of each other in case like 3:03:56.200 --> 3:03:58.920 shady people from outside trying to do something like whatever. 3:03:59.200 --> 3:04:02.000 Like our goal is to just make sure that like 3:04:02.240 --> 3:04:05.840 this is UM as safe as it can be, bringing 3:04:05.840 --> 3:04:09.519 people together as successful as it can be. Understanding implementations 3:04:09.600 --> 3:04:13.000 of who's gonna be You're gonna be outside, so there 3:04:13.040 --> 3:04:16.959 might be you know, all the some of the fun 3:04:17.200 --> 3:04:20.840 of having like a collective group of people all outside together, 3:04:21.520 --> 3:04:26.320 which can be a lot of fun. Like I'm I'm 3:04:26.400 --> 3:04:32.160 waiting for karaoke and for UM like our open mic 3:04:32.480 --> 3:04:35.119 and people bringing out like instruments and like just having 3:04:35.320 --> 3:04:39.920 like you know, we're people discussing like, um, you know 3:04:40.640 --> 3:04:47.680 some soccer uh potentially being a thing, um determining like 3:04:47.920 --> 3:04:51.520 placing bets on who's going to be more into soccer 3:04:51.760 --> 3:04:59.520 based on various ideological fin views and past experience, and yeah, 3:04:59.640 --> 3:05:01.480 hit us up if you want to play some music, 3:05:01.640 --> 3:05:03.640 if you've got an idea for something fun that sounds 3:05:03.720 --> 3:05:06.160 cool to do. And just to come to circle back 3:05:06.160 --> 3:05:09.560 to this, I think, like with the point about conflict mediation, 3:05:09.600 --> 3:05:11.680 I just want to make that like super clear. Just 3:05:11.720 --> 3:05:13.360 because we're not going to spend half a day trying 3:05:13.400 --> 3:05:16.119 to come up with community with the points of unity 3:05:16.360 --> 3:05:18.400 does not mean we don't have expectations about how you 3:05:18.480 --> 3:05:21.600 act in this space. So our plan is basically to say, like, 3:05:21.760 --> 3:05:25.640 don't be an asshole. And then that means you know, 3:05:25.879 --> 3:05:28.360 like in all the ways that we know, uh that 3:05:28.480 --> 3:05:30.960 those things can happen. And then if somebody accidentally is 3:05:31.000 --> 3:05:34.600 being an asshole, where somebody's are accidentally being an asshole 3:05:34.760 --> 3:05:36.920 like that, those are things we can we can manage 3:05:36.920 --> 3:05:39.640 because we all know what it is that we're doing here. Um, 3:05:39.959 --> 3:05:41.600 So it's definitely not a free for all you know 3:05:41.760 --> 3:05:44.280 it's a this is a space where the normal things 3:05:44.360 --> 3:05:54.560 we would expect in space are expected, you know, explicitly. Yeah. 3:05:54.720 --> 3:06:01.480 Oh well man, I'm excited. Yeah, I'm looking forward to people. 3:06:02.000 --> 3:06:06.320 I don't know. I don't actually know how widespread bonfires 3:06:06.360 --> 3:06:09.360 are in the US, but we do a lot in 3:06:09.360 --> 3:06:12.360 the Midwest and bonfires are a great time. I'm excited 3:06:12.400 --> 3:06:16.400 people to experience that. It's it's good. Um. Yes, so 3:06:16.520 --> 3:06:19.880 I guess, um do you you if anything closing that 3:06:19.959 --> 3:06:22.080 you want to say? And also where can people find 3:06:22.240 --> 3:06:26.240 this and attempt to go to it? Also when is 3:06:26.280 --> 3:06:30.880 it happening, because that's another important It's going to be 3:06:31.000 --> 3:06:38.360 July UH twenty nine one UM, and attendance is free, 3:06:38.480 --> 3:06:42.280 there's no there's no charge, but we are soliciting donations. 3:06:42.360 --> 3:06:46.520 So we're doing a fundraiser UM through Open Collectives UM 3:06:46.640 --> 3:06:51.400 and we spend very generously given UH an offer of 3:06:51.520 --> 3:06:55.920 matching donations from one of the organizers who got like 3:06:56.040 --> 3:06:58.039 I got a little bit of a chunk of change 3:06:58.120 --> 3:06:59.720 to kind of contribute to that sort of thing. We're 3:06:59.800 --> 3:07:04.480 very I'm excited about that. So if you go on 3:07:04.800 --> 3:07:10.360 to you can follow us on Twitter, and I believe 3:07:10.400 --> 3:07:17.480 that's at Dual Power. Uh to let me tell the chat. 3:07:17.560 --> 3:07:20.640 I think it's at Dual Power. Gathering is our Twitter 3:07:21.440 --> 3:07:29.160 and um the website is dual dual power dot org. Yes, yeah, 3:07:29.760 --> 3:07:32.600 um yeah. If you go on the website, you'll find 3:07:32.640 --> 3:07:34.920 the links to everything you need to know. You can 3:07:34.959 --> 3:07:37.800 get in touch with us. You can like, you know, 3:07:37.959 --> 3:07:40.400 give us your your feedback, if you love it, if 3:07:40.440 --> 3:07:43.560 you hate it, if you've you know whatever. We're We're 3:07:43.560 --> 3:07:45.280 probably not going to change the whole thing right now, 3:07:45.440 --> 3:07:47.280 but show up and we can change it at the time. 3:07:49.640 --> 3:07:52.400 I'll also say we do have like an organizing discord 3:07:52.600 --> 3:07:55.800 and people who are like serious about like getting involved 3:07:55.840 --> 3:07:58.680 in want to have things like I want to come 3:07:58.720 --> 3:08:01.920 to this and with things that they have specific visions 3:08:01.959 --> 3:08:04.800 for now. It's like absolutely time to get engaged with 3:08:04.879 --> 3:08:09.800 that because we're like we're working towards making getting people 3:08:10.560 --> 3:08:13.240 into the like who are the participants to really own 3:08:13.320 --> 3:08:18.080 the event itself, So that'll be like that's something we have. 3:08:18.720 --> 3:08:21.280 I believe We're gonna probably two more community calls wanted 3:08:21.920 --> 3:08:24.360 June and one in July. Every one of those calls 3:08:24.440 --> 3:08:27.960 has been really amazing, lots of great people, um, and 3:08:28.959 --> 3:08:31.200 during those calls are gonna be doing some training on 3:08:31.800 --> 3:08:33.640 because you've got to do some prep work when you're 3:08:33.680 --> 3:08:37.720 doing this kind of like generative discussion like popular education, 3:08:38.320 --> 3:08:43.200 like unconfidence style. UM events like coming to them with 3:08:43.280 --> 3:08:45.280 a little bit of un understanding of what that looks 3:08:45.360 --> 3:08:51.040 like is really key to being successful. So um, we 3:08:51.200 --> 3:08:53.360 encourage people who want to come get signed up, and 3:08:53.440 --> 3:08:55.640 then we'll get into our mailing list, and our mailing 3:08:55.680 --> 3:08:59.119 lists is where we disseminate like when those calls are happening, 3:08:59.720 --> 3:09:04.320 and also pomping our discord as long as you're cool 3:09:04.440 --> 3:09:07.280 and agree your community very manol like bring you in 3:09:07.480 --> 3:09:10.120 and get all sorts of shipped together. We're very excited 3:09:10.200 --> 3:09:15.760 for people. There's still a third number of thoughts open 3:09:16.000 --> 3:09:19.000 for the events itself, were like almost half way full. 3:09:19.240 --> 3:09:22.520 So yeah, I mean definitely, we're We've been trying to 3:09:22.840 --> 3:09:24.640 think about this as an event that we would want 3:09:24.680 --> 3:09:26.320 to go to, and we wanted to be an event 3:09:26.360 --> 3:09:28.520 that you want to come to also, so help us 3:09:28.560 --> 3:09:33.480 make it. So yeah, yeah, that's that's yeah, this is 3:09:33.520 --> 3:09:38.320 really exciting. I'm god be going to it. Yeah. So yeah, 3:09:38.440 --> 3:09:39.840 thank thank thank you, thank you to you both for 3:09:40.120 --> 3:09:42.240 joining us, for talking about this, and I'm excited too. 3:09:42.360 --> 3:09:46.080 I'm excited to see lots of people there. Hey, hey, 3:09:46.360 --> 3:09:48.080 I mean we've all been wanting to see each other 3:09:48.320 --> 3:09:52.880 for two and a half years, right, So I miss you. 3:09:53.320 --> 3:09:59.800 I missing your face with dimension. Yea, I'm sick of 3:09:59.840 --> 3:10:06.560 you're flat face. Yeah, thanks so much for having us 3:10:06.600 --> 3:10:09.560 on to talk about it. Really looking forward to it. 3:10:11.560 --> 3:10:13.640 I mean, we're getting closer and closer. It's just like 3:10:13.800 --> 3:10:17.080 it just gets more exciting and also a little nerve wracking. 3:10:17.200 --> 3:10:19.120 But thankfully a lot of people have been stepping up 3:10:19.160 --> 3:10:21.520 on a very I'm confident that's gonna be really like 3:10:22.280 --> 3:10:24.840 a really great thing. Yeah, and we will we we 3:10:24.879 --> 3:10:28.880 will have links to everything in the show notes. Um. Yeah, 3:10:29.080 --> 3:10:30.720 this has just make it happen here. You can find 3:10:30.840 --> 3:10:36.920 us in the usual places happen to your pot and stuff. Alright, goodbye, 3:10:37.000 --> 3:10:44.680 have fun. Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes 3:10:44.879 --> 3:10:47.320 every week from now until the heat death of the universe. 3:10:47.920 --> 3:10:50.279 It could happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 3:10:50.520 --> 3:10:53.160 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:10:53.200 --> 3:10:55.320 cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 3:10:55.400 --> 3:10:57.880 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 3:10:57.959 --> 3:11:00.600 listen to podcasts, you can find sore Sayspher It could 3:11:00.640 --> 3:11:03.520 happen here, Updated monthly at cool Zone Media dot com 3:11:03.640 --> 3:11:05.480 slash sources. Thanks for listening.