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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know. This is a compiletion episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you. But you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. If I know one thing

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Speaker 1: about diseases, it's that their home bodies. Now, it's fine,

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Speaker 1: we make it. They just want to netflix and chill.

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Speaker 1: You just line up the entire population of the US

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Speaker 1: in a line across the US. We shoot any deer

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Speaker 1: that tries across the line. I think we should do

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Speaker 1: the reverse and have deer shoot people who tried across

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Speaker 1: the line. It's the only thing that can protect us

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Speaker 1: from the dangerous east. No, no, no, that look look well,

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Speaker 1: I guess it worse in east and in the west.

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Speaker 1: We have to maintain the right to arm bears. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm of the opinion, given how dry it is

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Speaker 1: in New Mexico, that we need to sink every part

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Speaker 1: of the country east of New Mexico to give it

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Speaker 1: a coast that can that can keep it moist. I

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Speaker 1: wonder how much of this is going to get in

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Speaker 1: the final cut. Well, if you live east of New Mexico,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the ocean. That's my suggestion. Um, speaking of

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Speaker 1: people east of New Mexico, this is it could happen

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Speaker 1: here a podcast where some of the listeners are east

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Speaker 1: of New Mexico, even though I don't recommend that. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans. On the call with me is Christopher Wong,

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Speaker 1: Garrison Davis, Sharene Lonnie Units, and then our producers Sophie.

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Speaker 1: Today we're talking about terrorism. Yeah, we do it in

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Speaker 1: a little NPR voice. So uh. Recently, the same week

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Speaker 1: as the Supreme Court leaked a document stating that they

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Speaker 1: would be taking out Roe v. Wade and ushering in

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Speaker 1: an era of theocratic fascism in a number of states. Uh,

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Speaker 1: an individual or individuals unknown in Wisconsin attacked Anti Choice

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Speaker 1: headquarters building with a Molotov cocktail and spray painted graffiti

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Speaker 1: on the side saying if abortion isn't safe, then you

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Speaker 1: aren't either. That same group or individuals claiming to be

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Speaker 1: from them, later reached out to me through an intermediary

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Speaker 1: and sent a manifesto of sorts about the attack, promising

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Speaker 1: follow up attacks within thirty days. But they wrote, but

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Speaker 1: they wrote in cursive, So who can say, Who can

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Speaker 1: say if this actually happened. So we'll talk first. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna just go over first what what happened in like

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Speaker 1: factual terms, and then we'll talk about the discourse around it.

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Speaker 1: So basically, there's this attack on this UM anti choice

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Speaker 1: like advocacy organizations headquarters in fucking Wisconsin. UM it was

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Speaker 1: seemed to be a pretty good molotov and that, like Garrison,

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Speaker 1: you and I have watched a number of people failed

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Speaker 1: to properly utilize. I watched a few people get watched

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Speaker 1: one get ignited by him altop, I've seen a couple

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Speaker 1: of not cops get ignited by mollotsovs um they're they're

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Speaker 1: they're not like people can suck them up easily. Whoever

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Speaker 1: did this did not suck them up. It was seemed

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Speaker 1: to be at the moment. No one has been arrested.

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Speaker 1: Now it's possible by the time this drops, Wisconsin police

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Speaker 1: will be like, oh no, there was totally surveillance footage

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Speaker 1: and they fucked up and we just caught them, UM,

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Speaker 1: But at the moment, it doesn't look like that's the case.

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Speaker 1: So it looks like this is somebody who carried out

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Speaker 1: or some buddies, because it's entirely possible is multiple people,

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Speaker 1: but carried out UM a very effective like action that

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Speaker 1: did material damage to UM, part of kind of the

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Speaker 1: physical infrastructure of the anti choice movement UM and ended

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Speaker 1: without anyone getting caught. So that's the fact of the

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Speaker 1: actual attack itself. UM. A person who claiming to be

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Speaker 1: affiliated with the individuals or group who did this reached

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Speaker 1: out to a source of mine who I'm keeping anonymous,

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Speaker 1: but somebody who I've known for a while with a

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Speaker 1: very good track record of being accurate, and said, hey,

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Speaker 1: these individual slash individuals have a communic A they would

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Speaker 1: like put out UM. And I was sent on a

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Speaker 1: non files link, which is a link. If you view

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Speaker 1: it in a normal browser you'll get some fucked up ship.

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Speaker 1: Don't put it in a normal browser. I specified it's

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Speaker 1: like you're supposed to. If you put it in tour,

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Speaker 1: it will download a text file right UM. And the

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Speaker 1: text file is the communic A. So using the Tour

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Speaker 1: browser for that link, you can get a text file

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Speaker 1: in which they lay out number one. They named themselves UM,

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Speaker 1: and the name they've chosen for their group is Jane's Revenge,

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Speaker 1: which is a reference to the Jaine Collective UM, which

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Speaker 1: was a pro choice group in the late sixties early

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Speaker 1: seventies that UM provided women with access to contraception and

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Speaker 1: abortion illegally. A bunch of them went to jail. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they were pardoned after Roe v. Wade. If I'm not

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Speaker 1: mistaken or at least other one more about it, send

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Speaker 1: the market the k click. Yeah, yeah, very well timed. UM.

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Speaker 1: So they're calling themselves Jamee's Revenge, and they basically said, hey,

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Speaker 1: if you are an organization in the anti choice movement,

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Speaker 1: you have thirty days to close down your operations otherwise

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Speaker 1: there will be follow up attacks. They specifically noted the

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Speaker 1: long and it's at this point like a forty years

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Speaker 1: long history of terrorist attacks from the anti choice movement,

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Speaker 1: many of which have assassinated doctors, something like sixteen people

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Speaker 1: have been killed, UM, dozens of bombs and bombing attempts,

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Speaker 1: something like a hundred acid attacks. So they made a

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Speaker 1: note of all that and said that like, basically we

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Speaker 1: will be UM, we will be responding in kind and

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Speaker 1: UH attacks after this initial attack will be correspondingly more severe. UM.

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Speaker 1: They also claim to have a pretty wide geographic reach,

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Speaker 1: said they had folks in a number of cities, UM,

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Speaker 1: and that yeah, there's going to be follow up attacks UM,

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Speaker 1: and they're prepared to defend their bodily autonomy with violence.

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Speaker 1: So that's that's the gist of what was claimed in

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Speaker 1: the communic a UM. In terms of what I think

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Speaker 1: about its legitimacy, UM, I don't have any reason to

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Speaker 1: believe they're not representing the individual or individuals who carried

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Speaker 1: out that attack in Wisconsin, based on the timing of

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Speaker 1: when the communic was made, and based on the fact

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Speaker 1: that the communicate is pretty consistent with what we saw

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Speaker 1: from the actual action. Right. So, among other things that

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Speaker 1: you can tell from the physical action that was taken

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Speaker 1: is that, UM, the individual or individuals who did this

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Speaker 1: were pretty well organized. They carried out a competent action,

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Speaker 1: and they thought there was a value in very clear

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Speaker 1: messaging because there's clear messaging surrounding the attack. The communicate

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Speaker 1: is very clear messaging. It does not sound like a

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Speaker 1: right winger writing up a fake communicate. It's very UM.

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Speaker 1: It takes great pains to both connect itself to history,

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Speaker 1: to frame its violence within the context of the violence

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Speaker 1: perpetuated by the anti choice movement for decades UM, and

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Speaker 1: just in general, it's the communication seems consistent with the

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Speaker 1: action that we saw in Wisconsin. Now cannot say, we

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Speaker 1: cannot say, I cannot say to a statement of certainty

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Speaker 1: whether or not it's legitimate. One helpful thing they did

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Speaker 1: is place state that there would be another more attacks

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Speaker 1: in thirty days, So we're kind of waiting. If thirty

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Speaker 1: days pass and there's never any kind of follow up

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Speaker 1: attacks by this group, then we can probably assume that

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Speaker 1: this was either somebody bullshitting or that the heat got

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Speaker 1: to too much for them and they decided not to

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Speaker 1: carry out follow up attacks. UM. But we're all kind

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Speaker 1: of in this holding pattern now to see what happens.

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Speaker 1: My personal speculation is that UM, they were exaggerating a

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Speaker 1: number of things. UM. I think that the their claims

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Speaker 1: about having members in a number of states in a

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Speaker 1: capacity to strike in a number of states was more

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Speaker 1: aspirational than literal UM. In that I suspect the people

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Speaker 1: behind this attack, in this communicate are hoping that by

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Speaker 1: UM carrying out attacks. They can inspire other people to

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Speaker 1: carry out attacks and credit it to the same organization, right,

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Speaker 1: which is not an uncommon tactic in the history of terrorism.

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Speaker 1: And again, this is terrorism. Like that doesn't mean I

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Speaker 1: don't think, uh, they have a point or that it's

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Speaker 1: like fundamentally unjust. Terrorism is just like a set of

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Speaker 1: tactics that different groups can use, and it can be

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Speaker 1: ethical or unethical depending on how you you choose to

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Speaker 1: do that. You can attack purely infrastructure, UM in a

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Speaker 1: terrorist manner, and I don't think that's necessarily unethical. And

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Speaker 1: you can also attack civilians, UM in a terrorist manner,

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Speaker 1: and I think that is unethical. At this moment, these

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Speaker 1: people have not done anything I view as inherently unethical.

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Speaker 1: They burned a building, UM, which I think is often

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Speaker 1: justified and is in this case justified. So that's that's

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Speaker 1: my opinion on the matter. Let's open it up on

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Speaker 1: the point you kind of closed with. I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they showed effective direct action. They did a physical thing.

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Speaker 1: Malta's are not the best way to do like to

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Speaker 1: like arsenal building, but they are good for a very

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Speaker 1: quick attack. Um. It caused this whole media thing, right,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot a lot of people talking about it,

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Speaker 1: then releasing the communicate through someone who can give it

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Speaker 1: a lot of visibility. Uh, and then by by doing

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Speaker 1: it with this with this name Jane's revenge and saying

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Speaker 1: in thirty days there will be more attacks in different

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Speaker 1: cities the messages that, Yeah, like you can. One way

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Speaker 1: to look at this is if if they don't have

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Speaker 1: tons of like you know, members are allies that they

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Speaker 1: know across different cities. Is that and anyone can do this,

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Speaker 1: Like anyone can do this and call themselves by that

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Speaker 1: name and be a part of this larger thing like

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Speaker 1: it's you if you if you spread it around, then

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Speaker 1: that it can become like this, this thing that anyone

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Speaker 1: can gloam onto. It doesn't need to be you don't

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Speaker 1: need to be a part of a member of a

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Speaker 1: specific group. You can just do stuff and release communicates

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Speaker 1: safely and add add on to the to the to

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Speaker 1: the specter. Yeah. Um, it's not hard to set up

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Speaker 1: like a text drop in the same manner that did

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Speaker 1: they did. It is relatively secure. Like there's no perfect

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Speaker 1: if you are committing terrorism, there is no perfect manner

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Speaker 1: to issue a statement. Um, but of the different things

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Speaker 1: they could have chosen. This is relatively secure, especially doing

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Speaker 1: it through an intermediary. I haven't had direct contact with

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Speaker 1: these people, but UM, we should probably note that there's

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Speaker 1: a huge discourse that started before the communic A came

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Speaker 1: out arguing that this is like a false flag attack. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's yes, that in a long line of calling a

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Speaker 1: pretty pretty well planned out direct action. When it actually happens,

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Speaker 1: people will defalse to calling it an OP. We're calling

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Speaker 1: it a false flag from a very people like that.

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Speaker 1: There's there's like there's like libs who say, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is a stage thing to make our movement look bad.

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Speaker 1: There's tank kys who think it's like the CIA planning something.

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Speaker 1: There's random other folks who are like, hey, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if it's legit. I think maybe it's like some

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Speaker 1: it's a lot of people get very various justifications for

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Speaker 1: calling pretty effective acts of direct action UM and questioning

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Speaker 1: questioning their legitimacy. I think some of this comes from

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Speaker 1: because there's obviously there's the bad faith elements of this UM,

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Speaker 1: but I think the good faith folks who questioned it,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of learned helplessness there. This idea that

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Speaker 1: because somebody did carry out a pretty successful direct action

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Speaker 1: attack that kind of did what its intention was, then

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Speaker 1: it has to have been the FBI or whoever, right,

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Speaker 1: because obviously the left could never have pulled off something

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Speaker 1: as as cunning as throwing a single molotov at a

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Speaker 1: building and spray painting the side of it, you know. Um,

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Speaker 1: and I do think that that's a problem. Whether or

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Speaker 1: not you think the solution to issues like the right

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Speaker 1: wing attack on reproductive healthcare come from direct action, the

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Speaker 1: fact that folks almost can't conceive of effective action being

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Speaker 1: taken by the left without the FEDS being involved is

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Speaker 1: really an issue. Yeah, this was a huge thing during

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Speaker 1: one of the things that we saw there. There were

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Speaker 1: so many just weird conspiracy theories, and then the everything

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Speaker 1: that happened very quickly was people became convinced almost immediately

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Speaker 1: that anyone doing anything was it was a federal infiltrator.

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Speaker 1: And you've got people, you got crowds turning people over

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Speaker 1: to police. You got people on Twitter like trying to

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Speaker 1: track down, um, like who was throwing malltops and videos

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Speaker 1: and like one of the people they caught and they

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Speaker 1: turned over the police. It turned out had been had been.

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Speaker 1: The girlfriend is someone who got killed by the cops,

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Speaker 1: and so I mean this stuff, this stuff has has

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Speaker 1: The stuff has real world consequences. It has already like

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Speaker 1: sent people to jail, it has it has this normost

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Speaker 1: demobilizing effect of me. I don't remember people two people

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Speaker 1: remember the okay, the two two two big Okay, the

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Speaker 1: two big Twitter conspiracies were um bricks bricks and who yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: There's hoping that people like people would see a major

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Speaker 1: right next to a to a construction site, They'll be like,

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Speaker 1: how are all these pallets of bricks showing up this

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Speaker 1: there's like a construction site of block away. You're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: who's distributing the fireworks? How do these fireworks get here?

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Speaker 1: Never mind June. The history of like like the FBI,

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Speaker 1: some people will mistakenly like throw the CIA in there.

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Speaker 1: The CIA doesn't really tend to do like the domestic

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Speaker 1: facory um, they're international fay. But like, if you look

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Speaker 1: at the history of the FBI fucking with left wing

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Speaker 1: social movements, it's not by handing out brick palates. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but that's not what they do. We have a lot

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Speaker 1: of documentation about what they do and it's not bricks.

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Speaker 1: And if there is some secret group who's maliciously giving

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Speaker 1: out bricks so people attack, throw them through windows, or

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Speaker 1: throw them at cop cars, like who cares? Like bricks

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Speaker 1: are getting throw a cop cars. It doesn't matter where

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Speaker 1: they come from. Like people are still choosing to do action. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the best example of this is is the Russian Revolution n. No. Five.

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Speaker 1: The Russian Revolution of n. Five was started by a

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Speaker 1: guy who was a police agent. Like his whole thing

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Speaker 1: is he was he was he was working to create

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Speaker 1: like unions that could be controlled by the state, and

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Speaker 1: he marched a bunch of people into a square and

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Speaker 1: the police shot them. And that's how and that's how.

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Speaker 1: That's literally how the Russian Revolution started. Like it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't like there's there's a there's a point, Okay,

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Speaker 1: they're they're like, there's two layers of this. One is

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Speaker 1: that like there there almost is never a conspiracy going

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Speaker 1: on into if the conspiracy is we want to push

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Speaker 1: people towards doing things. It almost it doesn't. There's a

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Speaker 1: point at which it stops mattering because a lot a

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Speaker 1: lot of people forget about acams rights. There when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about these types of things. Usually, the more simple

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Speaker 1: the answer, the more likely it is. The more the

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Speaker 1: less involved parties, the more likely the more likely it is.

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Speaker 1: So if there's a choice between rad people fucking up

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Speaker 1: an anti choice headquarters versus a government conspiracy to do

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Speaker 1: false flag operations to make the antichos to make the

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Speaker 1: abortion movement look bad, like, one of those is much

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Speaker 1: more simple and much more likely. And it's people just

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Speaker 1: deciding to do stuff because guess what you can You

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Speaker 1: can actually do that. You don't need to allow these

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Speaker 1: these weird narratives to to like to justify your uncomfortableness

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Speaker 1: at like at forms of radical direct action, because it's

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Speaker 1: it's people use that false flag idea, so so they

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Speaker 1: don't need to actually engage with what direct action will mean.

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Speaker 1: And if it is someone's moral imperative to physically attack

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Speaker 1: like physical manifestations of these sources of oppression, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think you're right on the money there. I think one

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Speaker 1: of the things that's most frustrating to me about this

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Speaker 1: is it kind of suggests that a sizeable chunk of

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Speaker 1: people who ostensibly consider themselves on the left are like

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Speaker 1: focusing their time not on doing anything and not on

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Speaker 1: taking any action to materially change the conditions. They're angry

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Speaker 1: at um, but are instead looking for reasons to disavow

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Speaker 1: other folks on the left, and that that's like the

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Speaker 1: primary which is if you again, if you like look

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Speaker 1: at what we know Herbert Herbert Hoover was saying about

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Speaker 1: the FBI's co Intel pro program was the goal of

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Speaker 1: co Intel pro right, That's what That's exactly what I

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Speaker 1: was thinking. I'm just like, I feel like this promotes

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Speaker 1: I don't know, a morality like race or like just

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Speaker 1: like competition, where the only thing it does is just

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Speaker 1: promote infighting. When you have this, like you're on your

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Speaker 1: morality horse. But I think if you actually support real change,

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Speaker 1: you have to come to terms with like you have

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Speaker 1: to do illegal things and like holding on too, like

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Speaker 1: these made up laws that someone made up about like

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Speaker 1: how to achieve change is useless. And there's i mean,

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Speaker 1: like dividing up a side that's supposed to be going

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Speaker 1: for the same thing. Like that's exactly yeah, it's just

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Speaker 1: it's missing the point and people don't really Yeah, if

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Speaker 1: you look at the right, you've got all these folks

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Speaker 1: who were like legal and and whatnot, Uh, proponents of

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Speaker 1: of ending reproductive health care access and any of the

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Speaker 1: folks who were doing repeated acts of terrorism. And the

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Speaker 1: folks who were on the legal side of things didn't

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Speaker 1: disavow those people. They were often affiliated with churches that

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Speaker 1: did shoot like auction off the possessions of like extremists

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Speaker 1: who had murdered doctors and ship like they were like

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Speaker 1: even the most they would do is just not directly

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Speaker 1: talk about those people. They didn't disavow them, they didn't

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Speaker 1: like attack it because they understood that a diversity of

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Speaker 1: tactics was going to be how they achieved their goals.

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Speaker 1: That it was a mix of pushing for these legal

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Speaker 1: changes and carrying out so many terroristic attacks that it

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Speaker 1: frightened people away from supporting UM abortion service providers and

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Speaker 1: other kind of reproductive healthcare service providers. UM difference between

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Speaker 1: the right and the left, though, Like Democratic Republicans are

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Speaker 1: really good at uniting on this big picture, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like Democrats are not. I feel like they just uh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it's too there's too much in fighting,

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Speaker 1: and that's why it's always fractured. Part of it is

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Speaker 1: that on the Republican side, you have Republicans and you

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Speaker 1: have the far right who are also Republicans. And even

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Speaker 1: though a lot of folks on the far right bitch

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Speaker 1: about the centrists in their upboard, like the folks who

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Speaker 1: are closer to the center, they all get in line

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Speaker 1: for really radical stuff, Like the center of the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party always yields to the radicals, whereas Democrats do not

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Speaker 1: acknowledge leftists as having anything to do with with the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party or democratic politics other than the yell at

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Speaker 1: them when they don't vote. Um. And on the other

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Speaker 1: hand of things, there's a lot of folks on the

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Speaker 1: left who hate liberals more than they hate fascists, you know. Um,

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Speaker 1: And it's it's I think one of those is a

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Speaker 1: bigger problem than the other. I think that the failure

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Speaker 1: of the democratic establishment to like deal with the left

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Speaker 1: at all, um, or make any kind of progress that

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Speaker 1: could be seen as as actually left. Actually yeah, but

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Speaker 1: but I think I think there's they're there. I think

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Speaker 1: there's structural reasons for that too, Which is okay, if

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Speaker 1: if you look at what is the basis of conservative alliance, Right,

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Speaker 1: if you're a conservative, you know, okay, if you're from

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Speaker 1: the sort of like moderate business wing, get the party

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Speaker 1: if you're from the fascist wing, get the party right,

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Speaker 1: you can have one judge who gives both of you

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Speaker 1: the things that you want right, because if you're if

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Speaker 1: you're like the Koke Brothers, the thing that you want

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Speaker 1: is the regulation. Right, you want to be able to

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Speaker 1: just like dump poison into the environments. If you're on,

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Speaker 1: if you're on, if you're an evangelical, the thing that

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Speaker 1: you want is uh, you know, to no one can

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Speaker 1: ever have an abortion again. And you know, if if

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Speaker 1: if you're like a fascist, I don't know, maybe you

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Speaker 1: want like we don't give food to immigrant children anymore,

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Speaker 1: so they start to death. And one judge can give

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Speaker 1: you all of those same things because the the sort

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Speaker 1: of the the class and social issues of the Republican

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Speaker 1: base can all be fused together without harboring each other.

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Speaker 1: But the problem with with with this with the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party is that like the Democratic Party's basis is like

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Speaker 1: what's left of the Union movement, but then also like

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Speaker 1: a bunch of corporations and banks and like weapons manufacturers

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Speaker 1: and stuff, but then also like a bunch of angry

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Speaker 1: students and also like a bunch of people from different

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Speaker 1: minority groups, and all of these people like have different

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Speaker 1: interests and you know, in the Democratic Party, ultimately like

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Speaker 1: the thing, the thing that they care about is keeping

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Speaker 1: capitalism going. And you know if if they have to

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Speaker 1: like if that means that, yeah, I mean well okay,

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Speaker 1: if if if your things you want to keep capitalis

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Speaker 1: and going, like of course you're just gonna throw your

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Speaker 1: left wing out to the wolves, right like it. It

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Speaker 1: makes sense for them to do this because because the

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Speaker 1: part of their base that actually matters isn't like the

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Speaker 1: labor movement, it's like it's Goldman Sachs. I think that

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Speaker 1: one of the other things that that causes people to

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Speaker 1: have this like immediately anyhow someone does someone does. Like

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Speaker 1: people remember like when and Nancy Pelosi's driveway got graffiti,

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Speaker 1: like that was like that's never never, that's horrible. Don't

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Speaker 1: graffiti Nancy Pelosi's driveway. That's evil. Yeah, like it's an

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Speaker 1: isis you did nicest there? Yeah? Everyone lost their mind

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Speaker 1: and was like, oh, this is obviously a false flag,

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Speaker 1: and it's like what you know, But the reason they

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Speaker 1: do this is because they have they have like Democrat

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Speaker 1: optics brain were like I said, if anything being about politics,

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Speaker 1: every everything is just about optics. And optics and how

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Speaker 1: does it look? How does it look? How does it look?

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Speaker 1: Like the only people who care about this are like

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Speaker 1: weird pundits, but because because because everyone's so sort of

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Speaker 1: absorbed in like the Twitter media's fear, like they think

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Speaker 1: that like the actual general public cares about the things

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Speaker 1: that pundits care about because the only thing they're seeing

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Speaker 1: is pundits writing angry articles. But like nobody cared like

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Speaker 1: zero people, especially the graffiti thing, because man, people like

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Speaker 1: dissect how someone sprayed an anarchist a. It's like if

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Speaker 1: you're not aware, like a big chunk of the discord,

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Speaker 1: are e it being a false flag or whatever? Was that?

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Speaker 1: The incursive? Yeah, and that they did. They did as

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Speaker 1: they did like um, the anarchy a inside the inside

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Speaker 1: the circle. Um. And it's wild because I mean, spray

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Speaker 1: painting what they said, like if if abortions aren't safe,

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Speaker 1: then you are either in cursive is a genius move.

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Speaker 1: It's great because if you're spray painted in some like

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Speaker 1: random punk fond that's easy to be ignored like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's just people doing like whatever, people prey any stuff.

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Speaker 1: But doing it like methodically in cursive is is actually

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Speaker 1: a really good choice because you're like, oh, it's like

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Speaker 1: we're dealing with adults. It's like like the type of

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Speaker 1: things that people will go through their minds when they

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Speaker 1: look at it is great. Um, and it's just a

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Speaker 1: weird denial to assume that no one who takes radical

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Speaker 1: direct action whatever write in cursive. It's just it's like

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Speaker 1: the most the most brainworms thing. And it's also like

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Speaker 1: it's also very clear, like like okay, so I am

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Speaker 1: very bad at spray painting, right, but like I have

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Speaker 1: I have used a spray paint can, and well, this

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Speaker 1: is an aged I was. I was, I was making

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Speaker 1: I was making banners for stuff, So this wasn't even

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Speaker 1: like this wasn't even cryings, but this is just like

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Speaker 1: regular spray painting. It's like that is hard, Like writing

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Speaker 1: that incursive and having it look that nice with the

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Speaker 1: spray pain can is like difficult, which you know, if

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Speaker 1: if you think about this about five seconds, this makes

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Speaker 1: it more likely that it's actually left just doing this

430
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: because it's like, what, okay, hold on, So the anti

431
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 1: abortion people have one person who's really really good at graffiti,

432
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: and this person that they've decided yeah, theist school and

433
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: secret like learning. It's like it's nonsense, but it's like

434
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: people people just people want everything to sort of like

435
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 1: like and I think this is the other angle of

436
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: this is that people think that like have this wild

437
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 1: overassessment of the capacity of the state. Yeah, and they

438
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: think that anytime something looks slightly weird, it's like, oh,

439
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 1: it must be the state. Like like one of the

440
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: one of the things that happened with with the Brooklyn

441
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: shooting tube was like you had all these people that

442
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: there's a tweet going around that was like, oh, like

443
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: the cameras just happened. All all the cameras, all the

444
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: cameras in New York were working except the exact one

445
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: that would have caught the shooter. And this is this

446
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 1: is like everyone circled around this and everyone was like,

447
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is a false flag. And then

448
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: know it turned out that like the guy had literally

449
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 1: called the police, but the police were so incompetent that

450
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 1: like other people like saw him on the street and

451
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: got to him before like the cops did. And and

452
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: like the camera it turned out wasn't even like the

453
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: camera that was out wasn't even the camera that like

454
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: like they had him on camera. It was a different camera,

455
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: but it was like everyone everyone just immediately has this

456
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 1: like conspiracy brain thing where they see like one thing

457
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: out of context that looks slightly weird and they go,

458
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 1: oh my god. This whole thing is is is a

459
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: state like c a like depressing. It's so depressing because

460
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: it's such it's so depowering your specific you're like it

461
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,199
Speaker 1: ties into the learned helpless, this thing that Robert mentioned,

462
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: like you're convincing yourself that we don't have power to

463
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 1: change things, that we cannot take any physical action to

464
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 1: change things. Um. And that's not great mentality to have

465
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: if you want to improve the world or if you

466
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: want to if you want to destroy the things that

467
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: harve you, Um, you do. You don't want to fall

468
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: into that that specific like I don't have any power

469
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 1: mindset because you turns out you can do stuff. Things happened,

470
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: you can. People threw a ball off and broke windows

471
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: and cool people sometimes do cool things, yes, just like

472
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: the people stuff. Yes. The Sophie Sophie Sophie, Sophie Sophie

473
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: one of the things that's interesting to me, and it

474
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: it might hold some lessons for folks thinking about radical

475
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: direct action. And what gets attention and what doesn't. So

476
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: obviously this attack has garnered a lot of national attention,

477
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: right the fact that I think because there was both

478
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: an attack and a message, there was another attack. And

479
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: it's not a p that this had anything to do

480
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: with the pro choice movement, UM, but I suspect it does.

481
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: The Attorney General Virginia Jason Miarez UM, on the tenth

482
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:22,159
Speaker 1: of May, there was a somewhat shot into his office,

483
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: like a bullet was found in the office. UM. It

484
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: was probably fired when no one was there. We don't

485
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: really know more than that. It is unclear as to

486
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: whether or not this is involved with things. But three

487
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: days before the shot was fired into his office, he

488
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: had basically Catholic groups had been planning big masses to

489
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: celebrate the leaked draft opinion, and protesters had been organizing

490
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: to protest the Catholic masses, and he had threatened to

491
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: charge people who protested masses. UM, because he believes the

492
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: right to freedom of religion trump's the right of free speech.

493
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like a fucked up situation. People

494
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: got angry at me ares UM, and it seems kind

495
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: of noteworthy that someone shot into his office three days

496
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: after this. I mean also, I mean there's been a

497
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: lot of stuff like on on May eight, there was

498
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: an attack on the organ Rights to Life building. Yes, yes, yes,

499
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: there was certainly appro choice. Yeah yeah, there was there,

500
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: there was there was at least two multop cocktails throne

501
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: and there was a break and inside. So it's like

502
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: you can do things. You don't have no power like

503
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: you can physical you can interact with the politics in

504
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: a physical way. Um, people do interact with politics in

505
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: a physical way. Yeah. And and people people have this

506
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: assumption that like this is going to be incredibly unpopular.

507
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: And again I want to point out burning the third Precinct.

508
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: How to higher approve of rating that both presidential candidates,

509
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: which I mean I I again tend to advocate in

510
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: we should elect the burning of the third Precinct in

511
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: Minneapolis as president. Look every look, the way that works

512
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: is the burning of the precinct takes off this and

513
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: then every day you burn another precinct. So that's so

514
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: that you can actually have a president. Well that is

515
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: how you fill the cabinet. Yeah, there needs to yeah, yeah, yeah,

516
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: you have to eat well, yeah, all all all the

517
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 1: staff positions filled with the Health and the Health and

518
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: Human Services Secretary will be the West Los Angeles Police

519
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: station and so forth. Yes, I'm really excited to see

520
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: which one gets picked for the Housing Secretary. I am

521
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: just on my on my toes. Just's exciting, exciting. Democracy

522
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: can be quite far. Electoralism has some has some really cool,

523
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: really cool points. Yeah, hey, you you too could go

524
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: in front of the National Labor Relations Board and the

525
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: National Labor Relations Board is just seven? Is just seven?

526
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: On fire police stations? Charred really win? So yeah, we

527
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: just we just want we wanted to at least talk

528
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: about this because if whenever a cool thing happens and

529
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: a large swath of of of people who are ostensibly

530
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: leftists or even or even anarchists default to calling anything

531
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: cool a false flag or notp it's like, well, like

532
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: what do you want? Like you want people just to

533
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: stay at home all the time and not do anything? Like,

534
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: what's what's the end goal here? If you're calling everything

535
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: that happens enough. Yeah, and also just like if you're

536
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: going to if you're worried about ops and thinking of

537
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: suggesting that something might be what is your line? Is

538
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: it just that people broke a law? Are you saying

539
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: that if people do illegal things, that's always like a

540
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: government op because that doesn't seem like yourself an anarchist,

541
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like a good strategy. Yeah, especially when it

542
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: comes to reproductive rights, like you're gonna have to do

543
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: illegal things, if people are gonna have to break exactly

544
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: pick and choose. I'm a hundred percent convinced that like

545
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: all of these people, if they'd seen John Brown, would

546
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: have been completely convinced the John Brown. Oh, John Brown

547
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: was for sure the FBI, he founded it, the original

548
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: op John Brown. I think that there's an aspect there

549
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: of also like okay, if if if you're on Twitter

550
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: right mostly or not doing politics, and the thing that

551
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: you're actually doing on Twitter is trying to feel smarter

552
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: for everyone else, and if you're the person that's like,

553
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,719
Speaker 1: oh hey, look all these people believe that this thing

554
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: wasn't an op or like oh I A yeah, it's

555
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: like it's like, yeah, okay, you you very quickly like

556
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: spiral into just like every all all the all the

557
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: sheeople to smart fight this suspicious like it's it's like

558
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: it's it's just a bad like looking at an element

559
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: of event and going oh, this is weird, but in

560
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: a way that is oh hauh, isn't this weird? It

561
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: must be the government, Like that's that's just a bad

562
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: way of thinking. Like in in the mirror hours, in

563
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: the mirror minutes after anonymous people broke into the Portland

564
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: Police Association headquarters back in I think was July, just

565
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: mirror hours, people were calling it a false flag that

566
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: the police were dressed to the black block the people

567
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: and started protesting. The Feds. Yes, they alleged that this

568
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: was like I guess the FBI or Homeland Security trying

569
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: to get protesters angry at the cops again, which is

570
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: I mean, for one thing, if actually happened, if there

571
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,239
Speaker 1: were to be a point where the left wing had

572
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: the FBI fighting or the FBI or Homeland Security whatever

573
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: fighting with local police over who was getting protested, that's

574
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: a win. That's a that's a big, solid capital dub

575
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: for the But people like the FBI is a block

576
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: breaking into the police union building and trying to light

577
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: it on fire, you're like, well, doing doing less physical,

578
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: let's be honest, doing less damage to that police union

579
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: building that I have seen my friends do when attempting

580
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: to deep fry French Fries. Like I have watched people

581
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: do more damage to their living rooms than that protested.

582
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: The people's astonishing because like there was so many people

583
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: at that action, and so many, so many people using

584
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: the moment to to actually gain like physical political power

585
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: for a brief a brief moment um, and to take

586
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: that away from them is just as a bizarre impulse.

587
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: And I would like to see it end, especially as

588
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: we're going to see hopefully see that people will realize

589
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: that that that direct action is going to become more

590
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: and more important for securing your personal rights and securing

591
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: your personal freedom. And also I would say these people, Okay,

592
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: if you want to be completely sure if that something

593
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: is happening is not an off, do it yourself. Stop

594
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: yelling about it on Twitter. Do it yourself. Then you'll

595
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: know it's not an off as a general rule. As

596
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: a general rule, look at France. What do the French

597
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: do whenever something they consider a right gets taken away

598
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 1: from them? They burn downtown Paris down, They light banks

599
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: on fire. They like Paris. Everyone who has gets select

600
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: did to a position of power in France knows that

601
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: if they cross certain lines, the capital will be ungovernable UM,

602
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: and there's a reason why French people have such quality healthcare.

603
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: Well with with with that note, I mean, I can't

604
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: believe we're ending on the note be be like the French.

605
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: I just is that is the friendship made a lot

606
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 1: of good calls, a lot of bad ones to not

607
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: trying to whitewash France, but there's a there's a number

608
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: of things they got spot on. Anyway, we will we

609
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: will be counting down the days until that thirty day marker,

610
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: and who knows, maybe other attacks will happen with people

611
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: also calling themselves Jane's revenge because and obviously this is

612
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,479
Speaker 1: something that we as journalists have no opinion on one

613
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: way or the other. We're just reporting, just pure reporting. Anyway,

614
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: Listen to listen to people who did cool stuff, to

615
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: to hear about the Jane collective, and maybe also recreationally

616
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: read about what different civilian groups are doing in Ukraine

617
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: and the degree to which a wide variety of incredibly

618
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: available tools UM can can be repurposed in neat ways.

619
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: All right, I think I think that I think e'spisode

620
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: that's a good sude. Hey, everybody welcome to it could

621
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: happen here, and it continues to happen here. UM. I'm

622
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: Robert Evans. This is a podcast about things falling apart

623
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: and what to do after that happens. And we are

624
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,720
Speaker 1: all currently dealing with the falling apart of several decades

625
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: of progress on reproductive justice. UM. The Supreme Court leaking

626
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: that UM they are coming for Roe v. Wade and UM. Yeah.

627
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: Today I'm here with Christopher Wong and Sharine Launie Unice

628
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: UM and my producer Sophie. We have two guests from

629
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: the bridget Alliance in the Midwest Access Coalition. We're going

630
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: to talk more about what they do in a second.

631
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 1: Broadly speaking, both seek to UM attach people who are

632
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 1: looking for reproductive healthcare and abortion access UM but cannot

633
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: get it easily in their area UM with clinics and

634
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: the things that they need in order to get to

635
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: the clinics, including transit and you know, time and hotels whatnot, UM,

636
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: in order to make it easier to get access to

637
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 1: that kind of healthcare in places like the Midwest, where

638
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: folks have been spending decades making it much more difficult

639
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 1: even prior to this recent ruling to get that kind

640
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: of healthcare. So I'm gonna let our guests introduce themselves. UM,

641
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: you've got the floor. Well, Hi, I am O'Dell Shelley.

642
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: I am the executive director at Deep Bridget Alliance, and

643
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna introduce my counterpart here. I'm Diana Parker trusta

644
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: from the executive director of the Midwest Access Coalition. And yeah,

645
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: so you'll have been in some ways kind of dealing

646
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: with elements of the post row world because obviously, like

647
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: you know, we're all focused on the Supreme Court decision

648
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 1: that's in the pipeline, but um, anti choice activists have

649
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: been working very hard to essentially create a post row

650
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: world in chunks of the United States prior to this point.

651
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: So you all have been kind of dealing with the

652
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: reality that a larger number of people are going to

653
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: be living under for a while, right. Yeah. Yeah, MRURI

654
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: has been able to effectively bad abortion state for years now.

655
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: I think, Uh, there's maybe a handful of abortions that

656
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: the one clinic there are able to do because of

657
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: all of the trap laws, um, which is the targeted

658
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: restrictions for abortion providers, uh, and the waiting period so

659
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: people have to go to another state. Kansas Iowa or Illinois, Missouri. Um,

660
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 1: and we've been helping those books for years, and UM,

661
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to guess this. I mean, just because you've

662
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: been living in with this for a while, I'm gonna

663
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: guess the announcement last week did not come as a

664
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: total surprise. The timing of it certainly did, which for

665
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: Diana and I came at the heels of a conference

666
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 1: that we were at thankfully together, which is was kind

667
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: of just pure luck for us so we could actually

668
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: commiserate together. But no, ultimately this is not a huge surprise.

669
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we're all still waiting to see

670
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: what actually happens in June. That the writing has been

671
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: on the wall for months, in years, if not longer.

672
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: And you know, as you were just pointing it out, essentially,

673
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: for organizations like the bridget Alliance and the Midwest Exist Coalition,

674
00:37:56,719 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: we have been existing already because the protections of ROW

675
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: are insufficient to actually secure abortion access for all in

676
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: this country. So this has been our lived experience, and

677
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: preparing for this moment has um It has been a

678
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: long time coming, and I'm sure there have been a

679
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: number of conversations that have been going on about what

680
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: to do and how to prepare for this right because

681
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: the primary change is going to be, at least initially

682
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: until some they make some sort of federal push that

683
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: states that have some sort of functional access to abortion

684
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 1: are going to be flooded with an even higher number

685
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: of people in need of care. Um, could you kind

686
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: of walk us through what sort of steps have been

687
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: taken to in order to kind of brace for that impact,

688
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: so to speak. Yeah, So I think a couple of things.

689
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: And and the first to sort of pull back on

690
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: that for a second is to say that part of

691
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: preparing for what's to come has been our orgs in

692
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: the community that we exist in. This this incredible expansive

693
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: landscape of different types of organizations that have existed for

694
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 1: decades to secure abortion access where the laws were insufficient,

695
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: where um people were faced with barriers like income and

696
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: equity and geographic inequity and the unavailability of providers. UM.

697
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: This network, though, has existed largely unseen, and so a

698
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: lot of preparing for what is to come is really

699
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: embracing our existence, feeling affirmed in that and in our value,

700
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: not shying away from the expertise within this community which

701
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 1: is held book by volunteers as well as staff UM,

702
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: and so I think a lot of the last couple

703
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 1: of years has been focusing on really trying to harness

704
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: that expertise and that knowledge and compassion and the fact

705
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: that many of the people who are leading a lot

706
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: of the efforts in the reproductive justice movement are people

707
00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: who have had abortions themselves, which is a enormous and

708
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: valuable part of how this movement moves and hopefully will

709
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: continue to center the people most impacted by the fall

710
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: of row UM. I think, more specifically for Bridget and

711
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: or its like MAC preparation means deepening our relationships with

712
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: the clinics that we work with. They are critical, of course,

713
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: and their sanity is critical to abortion access. Is making

714
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: sure that we have the sufficient funding to continue to

715
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: staff train that volunteers systematically and mindfully UM, and ideally

716
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: do so in a sustainable way so that we're not

717
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: all overwhelming ourselves with the sudden surge of need and

718
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 1: the sudden surge of impact UM. And then you know,

719
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: for Diana and I even personally, it means deepening the

720
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 1: relationships that US practical support organizations have with one another,

721
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: because no one organization is going to be able to

722
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: help every single abortion seeker who will need to travel.

723
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: It will rely upon really strong and transparent collaboration. So

724
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: those are some of the things that you've been focusing on.

725
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,720
Speaker 1: One of the things that strikes me as a problem

726
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,280
Speaker 1: that's going to be, if not immediate, been pretty imminent

727
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: for y'all is we've already seen threats and promises from

728
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: legislators in some states to attempt to criminalize leaving a

729
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,760
Speaker 1: state where abortion is illegal in order to get access

730
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,399
Speaker 1: to healthcare. How what what kind of preparation is even

731
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 1: possible for that sort of world, because it does seem

732
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: like we're staring down the barrel of that. Yeah, I

733
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: think the only preparation we can have right now is

734
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: to expect that the corners will allow them to do that. Um.

735
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 1: They're very creative now that they've seen a going to

736
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: effect and hold on as the law of the land,

737
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: even though it's in direct violation of federal law. UM

738
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: scode us the highest code court of our country, UH

739
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: is the one that has been allowing that to happen.

740
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 1: And so that sends a huge message to all these

741
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: UH force birth legislators that you know, bring us your

742
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: worst take on the law. We will find a way

743
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: to let you keep it. UM. We're we're working with

744
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: you on this, and UM, you just need to get

745
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: bolder and bolder and see what you can get away with.

746
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: So we can't really predict how they're going to do that,

747
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: although Missouri has indicated that they're going to consider an

748
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: a guessing as it's fertilized a resident and um, a

749
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: resident of the state, that they have, you know, responsibility

750
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: for protecting um completely ignoring the fact that it's growing

751
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: inside a complete human being that has rights. UM. But

752
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: that's that's the latest that I've heard of them figuring

753
00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: out how to restrict someone's someone's travel um M. But

754
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: it would require a significant shift in how we understand

755
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: constitutional law and um the basis for our legal system. Yeah,

756
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: and that that seems like something that I don't know,

757
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: like really genuinely seems to be on the table in

758
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: this moment. I mean, we have I think it's Louisiana

759
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: who's trying to like part part part of their bill

760
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: is that they like literally it says that they can

761
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: disobey the federal government, which we had a civil war

762
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: about that. We had we had a nullification crisis about

763
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: that we like, so, yeah, I guess I'm wondering what

764
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: your impression is on like how far this can go?

765
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: Like do do we get to the point where states

766
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: can just like tell the federal government no, Yeah, yeah,

767
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: I mean that's what the architect of the st law

768
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: essentially told The part is that they don't have jurisdiction

769
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: and all the law is that they have passed in

770
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: the eight hundreds are actually um enforceable, and the federal

771
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: government has no authority to stop them, and uh they

772
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: are the fifth district An Scotus has indicated that maybe

773
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: you are right, maybe that is the correct way to

774
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: interpret our constitution. Um. So I feel like all of that,

775
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: all of our decades centuries of um figuring out what

776
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: the law means for this country is just up in

777
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: the air, and we may be looking at laws now

778
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:44,319
Speaker 1: that are just more and more buzzarre. Um. As long

779
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: as you know the GOP and the Right have control

780
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 1: over so many bodies of our government. You it really is,

781
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: I can't even fathom. I don't think we can predict

782
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 1: what's going to come honestly, UM, I mean I'm also

783
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: wondering to put it crudely will legislators in states that

784
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: are currently committing because we have seen a number of states,

785
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: California kind of leading the pack committing to maintain um

786
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: access to to to abortion and other forms of reproductive

787
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: health care, they are being threatened right now. Do do

788
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: you like, do you feel like you have a good

789
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: chance that they are going to back you, especially in

790
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: the event of, you know, laws that would potentially open

791
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,879
Speaker 1: people like you up to criminal charges just for trying

792
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: to support people in getting you know, reproductive health care

793
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: outside of their state. Is your question? Do you do

794
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 1: we think that elected officials that are pro choice are

795
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: going to back us? Yeah? Yeah, yeah? Do you like

796
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 1: it's entirely possible that we're going to see some sort

797
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: of federal law that not just criminalizes abortion or even

798
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 1: like prior to that criminalizes aiding people in seeking a

799
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 1: ortion outside of states that have banned it, right, Like,

800
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: that's on the table. How does that change the landscape

801
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: for it? Do you suspect that, like in kind of

802
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: a similar way to how some of these some of

803
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 1: the legislators and states trying to ban abortion and said,

804
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 1: like we're just going to ignore federal law. If that

805
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: contradicts our state law. Do you think that, um? Do

806
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: you think that pro choice legislators in states you know,

807
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: like California are going to be willing to go to

808
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: the mat and protect you? Or are are we? I mean, yeah,

809
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 1: I guess I I know this is kind of an unknown,

810
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: but I'm kind of these must be conversations that y'all

811
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: are having, right, I mean, I really freaking hope that

812
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 1: they are. And if they're listening, please please prepare to

813
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: do so. And it's been really heartening to see states

814
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: like California and Oregon, in Illinois and New York and

815
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: Connecticut for instance, UM, come up with really clear language

816
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 1: around their support of not just choice, which was the

817
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: language of the past, but abortion and are saying that

818
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: and are starting to invest in things like abortion funding

819
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: and travel to themselves actually, you know, put forth their

820
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: own efforts to contribute to people who will need to

821
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: travel into their states. UM. And you know, Diana was

822
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: just speaking the other day with a bunch of elected

823
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: officials in Chicago. So I think I think this is

824
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,399
Speaker 1: also why what I was talking about earlier in terms

825
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: of orgs like ours coming coming into the light is

826
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: so important. Is that we were going to need those

827
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: relationships with those politicians. We're gonna need them to know

828
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 1: us and see us and understand that we're a critical

829
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: part of how we're going to serve their constituents and that, yeah,

830
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 1: we're going to need them to back us. Will they

831
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: I can't say definitively, but I really freaking hope. So yeah, yeah,

832
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: and hopefully those you know, as O'Dell said just now,

833
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 1: I was UM in a press conference yesterday, the city

834
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: the Mayor's office announced this fun to support abortion procedure

835
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: funding and practical support. And my hope is with UM,

836
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: municipalities will talk to each other and give each other

837
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:14,280
Speaker 1: the models for doing UH this protective, preemptive UH support

838
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: for people traveling to our states for abortion care. And

839
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: UM yeah, I'm in with talks with the a c

840
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: l U in Illinois to talk about potential UM bills

841
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: that are floating around to even further protect UH puption

842
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 1: in this state. Specifically, I know of one that wants

843
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: to explicitly protect providers from being extradited or sued or

844
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: shut down by prosecutors in other states that want to

845
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 1: claim that they have to jurisdiction because like like I said,

846
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: they figured out a way to give residency status to

847
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: fertilize eggs or something. Yeah, it's just completely fun that

848
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 1: that's kind of what we're staring at right like that

849
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: that's the thing that you have to be concerned with,

850
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: is like out of state law enforcement. I don't know,

851
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: like and and that's the thing. No one knows what

852
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: it's going to look like, right Like we know that

853
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: they have a vested kind of interest already in doing

854
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: parts of this through bounties, which is kind of like

855
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: the thing that I'm worried about. Are we going to

856
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: see like out of state law enforcement bounty hunting people

857
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 1: trying to folks up with reproductive healthcare? And I guess

858
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: that's just kind of an unknown at this point, but

859
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,280
Speaker 1: it's right, and it really depends on like our local

860
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: protected state juristics, Like how far are they going to

861
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: go to protect us from those entities that are going

862
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: to try to come in for us? Um. Just just today,

863
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 1: one of our staff members tweeted about practical support funds

864
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: and who to support throughout the country that provides the

865
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: sort of travel logistics for people, and they got followed

866
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 1: by a sheriff department in Missouri Yeah, so they're already

867
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: out targeting and surveilling uh, abortion seekers and that people

868
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 1: who support them. Yeah, and of course I'm sure that

869
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: there's a degree to which some of these folks are

870
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: working with um, shall we say, like nonstate actors in

871
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: order to like, I know they've been prepping with that

872
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 1: for a while as well. Um, what is I mean

873
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: one of the things that I know because I've been

874
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: having some conversations with friends of mine who are and

875
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: like I guess we could say adjacently adjacent organizations to

876
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: to where y'all work and who are at in some

877
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 1: cases the convention you were at, who are concerned that

878
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: as providing people with reproductive healthcare becomes illegal. Um, there's

879
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of fair weather friends kind

880
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: of revealed and I I am interested, like, is this

881
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 1: a thing that in order to be engaged in providing

882
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 1: people with reproductive health care you have to be willing

883
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: to engage in illegalism at this point? Like is that

884
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: where we are? That's really interesting question. Yeah, as as

885
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: members like as bribing C threes, uh, you know looked

886
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: at by our state governments are federal governments. We can't

887
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: engage in anything that's legal UM. But people have forever

888
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 1: on their own dumb things that the state has considered

889
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 1: illegal in order to have bodily autonomy. UM. There are

890
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: people who can't afford it. There are people who are

891
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 1: just so far from the nearest clinic that they can't

892
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: even fathom how to make that trip. Uh. They're undocumented folks. UH.

893
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: There are people near the borders that can't even physically

894
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: move past a border trick point because they're just trapped

895
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: there and can't get care UM in other parts of

896
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 1: their state where it's available. UM. So they're that that

897
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,320
Speaker 1: will be a thing. I think that is going to increase,

898
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: because the need will not decrease UM. And I do not,

899
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: like my organization can't really see anything about that. But

900
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: you know, personally, I'm like, you do whatever it takes

901
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: to live your life and thrive. UM laws are made

902
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: up especially now. Yeah, that is nice to hear, because I,

903
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:34,280
Speaker 1: you know, I try to keep abreast of the sides

904
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: of this fight that are you know, working through five

905
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 1: o one ses and and the like, and and engaging

906
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: in electoralism. The people who are you know, doing stuff

907
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 1: like trying to figure out ways to UM provide access

908
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: to like miss pills and whatnot to people. UM, because

909
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 1: that's just where we are. We've talked about the degree

910
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: to which you guys have already been living in some

911
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,879
Speaker 1: people's future, you know, just because of the specific nature

912
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: of what your organizations have been doing. UM, and the

913
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,840
Speaker 1: degree to which you know you knew some of this

914
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 1: is coming. What has surprised you outside of just like

915
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: the fact that it got leaked ahead of time about

916
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 1: kind of what we've seen in the last weekend change.

917
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, mm hmm. I think I am. I'm not

918
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: so much surprised by the response from folks. UM, I'm

919
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: a little frustrated that it took this moment for people

920
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 1: to realize what has been happening in this country for

921
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: the past decade, few decades. Honestly, this is this is

922
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: a very long game, uh for the antis. But ever

923
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: since Trump was put into office and started just flooding

924
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: the federal courts with very young, very anti conservative judges, UM,

925
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: and SPA was a huge flag. UM. But I think

926
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 1: I was surprised that there was a mass amount of

927
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 1: people that we're going to step up when the decision

928
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:20,799
Speaker 1: came out. UM, it's it gives me hope I hope

929
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: it's sustained for the many many years we're going to

930
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 1: need uh practical support and abortion funds while we fight

931
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: for legal rights. Um. Yeah, so I guess the surprise

932
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: is a mixed it's a box bad for me. Yeah,

933
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: I was gonna say something similar that I think I've

934
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 1: been pleasantly surprised at how well educated and informed a

935
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: lot of our supporters and newer supporters are about. As

936
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 1: Diana mentioned, the existence of abortion funds and practical support organizations.

937
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 1: That practical support is and being talked about is huge.

938
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: We couldn't get this conversation into the media a couple

939
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 1: of years ago, So like, this is really remarkable and important.

940
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: But what's more, there seems to be also like a

941
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: different understanding of why we have to exist. Um, it

942
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be shocking people quite as much. A

943
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 1: but there certainly are still tons of people who are

944
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 1: shocked by this, But for many they're not shocked that

945
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: for some abortion has simply been inaccessible and what those

946
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 1: reasons are. Um. And you know, that's thanks obviously to

947
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 1: a lot of the really hard, important conversations that have

948
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 1: been had over the last couple of years about racial justice,

949
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: and I think that, you know, it's a silver lining

950
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:45,800
Speaker 1: for sure, but I'm I'm grateful to find that the

951
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 1: depth of the conversations is there now and hopefully that

952
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,800
Speaker 1: means that the commitment is going to be sustained in

953
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: long term, because this is a little bit of deja

954
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: vu for us in the sense that we've had little

955
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: moments like these ever since our organized aations existed. Um,

956
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 1: when a single band goes into place or is threatened

957
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: to go into place, this like swell occurs using my

958
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:10,879
Speaker 1: hands a lot, which obviously you can't see if you're

959
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 1: listening to me right now, So I'm gonna put my

960
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 1: hands down, um, and you know, and that and that

961
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 1: brings out a lot of really incredible donors and a

962
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: lot of really incredible offers for volunteers, and and then

963
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 1: they tend to go away. Um. And especially when when

964
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: Biden was you know, elected, and there was definitely this

965
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 1: like moment where everyone was like, Okay, we're cool, right,

966
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 1: which this guy hasn't said the word abortion, but we're

967
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 1: still fine, and we're not we're like the furthest from fine.

968
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 1: So yeah, again, like pleasantly surprised that people seem to

969
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 1: have um, a sense of why we're here. Yeah, I

970
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,399
Speaker 1: just wanted to bring up the website. Did Biden say

971
00:56:53,400 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 1: abortion yet or its like it's so unfortunately hilarious to me, um,

972
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,399
Speaker 1: but I'm just really glad it exists. Um. And then

973
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: they someone reached out to the someone in the Biden

974
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 1: administration to make a comment on this when the when

975
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: the the draft was leaked, and they said, well, we

976
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: tweeted it or like whatever it's and it's like it's

977
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: he said it once in a tweet and like once

978
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: in like a statement or something. So I just think

979
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 1: it's there, you go. I don't know what more we want,

980
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: but like, I just think it's important to what you

981
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: were saying earlier. Um, how legislators in Oregon or California,

982
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: like it's so important they're saying the word abortion, not

983
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 1: just pro choice, because I think a lot of people

984
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 1: are a lot of people are scared about that word

985
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: for some reason or it sounds scary to them if

986
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 1: they're not that educated about what pro choice means or

987
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: what abortion means. So I think I have a little

988
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 1: bit more hope seeing more people even saying that word, um,

989
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 1: because it really has pro choice. Yeah. Yeah, I think

990
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 1: the statistics is something like the antis have been using

991
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: the word abortion three times as much as we have,

992
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 1: and that is why it's so stigmatized and difficult to

993
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: talk about. And I definitely try to encourage people to

994
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: say the word abortion, to talk about abortion with everyone

995
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 1: they know, just so we can stop hiding. I guess

996
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: kind of the last thing I'd like to ask, and

997
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 1: we can we can cut this bit if this winds

998
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: up not being something you want to get into. But

999
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: have you have you felt an additional need to worry

1000
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 1: about given how public you are in your advocacy personal

1001
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: protection UM as things kind of have heated up, you know,

1002
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 1: we were we were recently at the conference that you

1003
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 1: mentioned before, UM, and it definitely with all of my

1004
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 1: colleagues in one place, it definitely made me feel a

1005
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: little vulnerable for myself and them. But honestly, the people

1006
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 1: who are targeted or the providers by far UM, I'm

1007
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: not worried about my physical safety. UM. I'm worried about

1008
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 1: the physical safety ever of our providers and the fact

1009
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: that our government is responding to peaceful protesters outside kavanas

1010
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 1: Um House and talking and and asked for I think

1011
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: Susan Collins on the sidewalk outside her residents results in

1012
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 1: legislation being immediately they all somehow got together for once

1013
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 1: in their lives to do something about the terrorists who

1014
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 1: chalked sidewalks by legislators home. Um uh is it's it's

1015
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: really demoralizing. Um because we have our providers have seen

1016
00:59:54,400 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 1: violence and um yeah, they've seen violence on this every day, murders,

1017
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 1: asset attacks, bombings. Um. Yeah, Chris Sharine, do you have

1018
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:09,479
Speaker 1: anything else you wanted to get into. Yeah, I wanted

1019
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 1: to ask one thing, so, you know, Okay, seeing this

1020
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 1: sort of increasing fectlessness or politicians even by their standards,

1021
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: and you know, the response to this being let's give

1022
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 1: more power to the U. S. Marshals, which is great idea,

1023
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: the worst idea I've ever seen. But what can just

1024
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 1: people do about this in it? You know, I mean

1025
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: we've talked about like giving to abortion funds, but like

1026
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: what how how can people get involved and how can

1027
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 1: people get involved in a way that's sustainable of the

1028
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 1: long term. Yeah, I mean, definitely give to abortion funds,

1029
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 1: give to practical support organizations like the Midwest Access Coalition

1030
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 1: and the bridget Alliance. Um. If you are interested in volunteering,

1031
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: reach out to your local organization. UM. There are a

1032
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: couple of really great resources for lists of those organizations

1033
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 1: and where they are, like the National Network of Abortion

1034
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 1: Funds UM. And you do bear with all of us

1035
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 1: because we are handling a flurry of emails and that's incredible,

1036
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 1: But we won't be able to plug you in immediately. UM.

1037
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 1: It might even take a little bit of time. But

1038
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 1: then I think that you know, voting is still critical,

1039
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: especially in local UM, in any local elections, especially if

1040
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 1: we're thinking about how we're going to prevent the possible

1041
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 1: criminalization of abortion seekers and of abortion providers, we need

1042
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: to make sure that we've got the judges and good

1043
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 1: local elected officials at the very least, So do not

1044
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 1: stop doing that. UM. Yeah, I think those would be

1045
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: the things that I would say, focus on and the

1046
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 1: thing that I always say, which is just like talk

1047
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 1: about it. Like I am totally that person who is

1048
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 1: like the downer at the dinner party talking about abortion,

1049
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: But be that person and go and talk about it

1050
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 1: and share why it's important and how it's not just

1051
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 1: about abortion, and it's not just about women, it's about families,

1052
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 1: it's about parents, it's about queer folks, it's it's about immigrants,

1053
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 1: it's about miners. Um, You've got a lot to be

1054
01:02:12,760 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 1: worried about right now, So don't stop talking, listening, reading,

1055
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 1: consuming whatever you can. Yeah, And just to jump off that,

1056
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: if you are in a safe state, you're not going

1057
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 1: You're not going to be safe forever. Uh, They're gonna

1058
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 1: come after us. They're going to come after the legislators.

1059
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: The supreme courts of those states. They're usually a thin margin,

1060
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 1: um as far as conservative versus progressive judges on state

1061
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 1: supreme courts. So find out who your local org is

1062
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 1: that is leading that voter turnout to make sure that

1063
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:54,680
Speaker 1: people are voting for the right judges go in. Um.

1064
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 1: And also I wanna lift up escorts. Escorts are on

1065
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 1: the ground many days of the week. They will put

1066
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 1: you to work and they're going to be needed more

1067
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 1: and more. UM. Yeah, I think that's that's all very

1068
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 1: important and a good note to end on. Does anyone

1069
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: else have anything else? Or are we um? Should we should?

1070
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 1: We Let y'all get back to your very important work. UM,

1071
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: And thank you again for for making the time for us, absolutely,

1072
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,479
Speaker 1: thank you for covering us and talking about it. Yeah,

1073
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 1: happy to do so we'll be we'll be continuing to

1074
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 1: to do that. And I hope you all, um, um, jeez,

1075
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say. Like, I hope you.

1076
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 1: I hope you function up for the people who are

1077
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 1: sucking shut up, you know. But I hope the support

1078
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 1: doesn't like dissipate as like the trend goes away or whatever.

1079
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 1: You know. I think that's so disheartening if that happens.

1080
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: And like, hopefully the flood of emails but not necessarily

1081
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: remains a flood for you. But like, I hope that

1082
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 1: people are actually serious about doing something. And um, I

1083
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: think this time they might be just because I keep

1084
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 1: being surprised about little things, so I'm not gonna expect

1085
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 1: anything anymore. Maybe people were surprising, But I really appreciate

1086
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: the work you do. Um, So thanks for coming out

1087
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 1: to talk to us. Thank you for us talk to

1088
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 1: your zoom h six about crack cocaine abuse. Some amount

1089
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,720
Speaker 1: of crack cocaine is perfectly normal for recording device you

1090
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 1: to use. It is part of the recording industry. But

1091
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 1: everyone can overdo it. And if your zoom h six

1092
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:52,480
Speaker 1: starts not reading cards or for example, stealing from you

1093
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: in ordered upon your stuff to buy more crack cocaine.

1094
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 1: You might need to do an intervention. This has been

1095
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 1: Robert Evans and a public service. And now about the

1096
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 1: zoom h six handhold recorder? How's that? Are we good?

1097
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 1: Is that a good way to introduce a podcast? What

1098
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 1: depends an That's a great question, Sophie. Scholars have debated

1099
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 1: for decades which show this is. But personally it is

1100
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 1: the opinion of myself, uh and a large body of

1101
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 1: researchers at Oxford and Cambridge that this is It could

1102
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:26,320
Speaker 1: happen here a podcast about how things are falling apart

1103
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: and how maybe put them back together one of these

1104
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 1: days figure it out. I'm here with Garrison and Chris.

1105
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 1: How are you guys? How are y'all doing? Just just

1106
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 1: absolutely splendid. I'm extremely excited that every time I leave

1107
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 1: Twitter as a new mass shooting there's there was, Like

1108
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,920
Speaker 1: this has been weekend. There have been quite a few

1109
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:50,479
Speaker 1: mass shootings in the last forty eight hours, and there's

1110
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 1: a non zero chance there's been at least one between

1111
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:56,200
Speaker 1: when we record this podcast and when you listen to it.

1112
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,160
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to be flippant. That's just a reality. UM.

1113
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: So I think we're going to talk about the two

1114
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 1: most recent ones, one of which UM was the mass

1115
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 1: shooting in Buffalo, New York by a four chan motherfucking

1116
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 1: white supremacist very much patterned after the twenty nineteen eight

1117
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 1: Chan shootings, particularly the christ Church massacre UM, and then

1118
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:22,600
Speaker 1: the day after. I guess it's not technically a mass

1119
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:25,360
Speaker 1: shooting because only one person was killed, thankfully, UM. But

1120
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 1: there was a shooting that was certainly an attempt to

1121
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 1: be a mass shooting because he attempted to close the

1122
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:33,320
Speaker 1: exit and stop people from leaving at a Taiwanese church

1123
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 1: UM in southern California, UM, which was stopped by the

1124
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: congregation before nearly as many people could get killed. UM.

1125
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 1: It appears to be it's just come out, UM, motivated

1126
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 1: by nationalist hatred of Taiwan by a Chinese man. UM.

1127
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 1: That's the broad understanding of both. Its complicated. Yeah, I'm

1128
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 1: sure we'll get into that that, but we should probably

1129
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: deal with them chronologically. UM. The Buffalo shooting is it's

1130
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 1: one of those things I made a big chunk of

1131
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 1: my bones as a journalist in the field that I

1132
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 1: used to spend most of my time reporting and covering

1133
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 1: the eight Chan shootings, and after every one of those

1134
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, I had an article within about two hours.

1135
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 1: I haven't written anything about this one. I don't plan

1136
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 1: to because there's not much to say. It is what

1137
01:07:28,760 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 1: we've seen before. UM. I know there's some debate over

1138
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 1: how much of the man as there should be, over

1139
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 1: like how much of the manifesto you can take at

1140
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 1: face value, which is none of it, um and, as

1141
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 1: to whether or not there might be something more going

1142
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:42,200
Speaker 1: on here. But it is kind of my opinion from

1143
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 1: the information we have, that this is the kind of

1144
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 1: attack we've seen before and the kind of attack we

1145
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,640
Speaker 1: will probably see again more than once before the years over.

1146
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:56,240
Speaker 1: You know, this is someone who was radicalized primarily against uh,

1147
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:00,120
Speaker 1: the immigration or the existence really of people who are

1148
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 1: not white in the United States um and believes that

1149
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:07,480
Speaker 1: the best way to cleanse the country of people who

1150
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 1: are not white is to carry out mass shootings that

1151
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 1: will radicalize other people and that will lead further to

1152
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:16,400
Speaker 1: the breakdown of civil society in the United States by

1153
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:19,759
Speaker 1: pushing it kind of like hot button issues like gun control,

1154
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:23,600
Speaker 1: UM in order to further you know, it's an accelerationist

1155
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: sort of attack. Um. So yeah, that's that's what I'm

1156
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 1: seeing here. Yep. I mean it's yeah, like like we said,

1157
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:35,400
Speaker 1: it's very very much riffing off of christ Church. I

1158
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:39,800
Speaker 1: mean at least over half of his manifesto was like

1159
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:44,600
Speaker 1: specifically richized manifesto, which, of course that manifesto itself was

1160
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:47,280
Speaker 1: was ripped from a lot of other manifestoes. It's kind

1161
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 1: of just just a series of like launching the medic

1162
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:54,720
Speaker 1: language from one shooting to another, just kind of compiling

1163
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 1: into this massive conglomerate that's all based on trying to

1164
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:01,120
Speaker 1: convince more people to do the same act. Um. That's

1165
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 1: really that's that's why when people are like talking about

1166
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 1: this and people try to limit the attention on the

1167
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:09,479
Speaker 1: manifestos and that kind of stuff, because it's it's all

1168
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:12,479
Speaker 1: crafted specifically to get other people to do the exact

1169
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:15,920
Speaker 1: same thing. Um. It's it's filled with themes, filmed with

1170
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 1: filled filled with in jokes, full of like in grip

1171
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:20,760
Speaker 1: up group stuff to convince people to kind of go

1172
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 1: down a similar path, and all of it's carefully crafted

1173
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 1: that way. The one really interesting thing about this is

1174
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:28,639
Speaker 1: that there's not only manifesto, but also like unless seven

1175
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:31,599
Speaker 1: hundred pages of diaries that he posted as well, um

1176
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:35,120
Speaker 1: and logs from from like over like like like from

1177
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 1: a long, long, long time, tracking his inner thoughts. But

1178
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 1: also like again, he posted it and he knew he

1179
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 1: was gonna do this, So there's no telling how how

1180
01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:46,719
Speaker 1: accurate that is. It's all it's all in this package

1181
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 1: that he wants to present to people. So a lot

1182
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 1: of the navvy gritty are is not even worth talking

1183
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 1: about in a lot of a lot of cases. No,

1184
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 1: and I'm not I think there's broadly speaking, things you

1185
01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:59,200
Speaker 1: can learn. And I'm also to be clear, I'm not

1186
01:09:59,240 --> 01:10:02,880
Speaker 1: against searchers studying, and I think it should be absolutely

1187
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:05,519
Speaker 1: I am against just finding a thing in there and

1188
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,200
Speaker 1: like posting it like when I when I made my post,

1189
01:10:08,280 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 1: I was pretty careful to note a couple of things

1190
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:13,760
Speaker 1: that seemed consistent based on other aspects of the like

1191
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:16,959
Speaker 1: things that he claimed about his radicalization that seemed consistent

1192
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:18,960
Speaker 1: with what we were seeing, Like he noted that he

1193
01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 1: was primarily radicalized online. That seems plausible to me because

1194
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:26,560
Speaker 1: of how fucking online the manifesto is. Um like and

1195
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:30,080
Speaker 1: and it's one of those folks are not entirely wrongfully

1196
01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:33,200
Speaker 1: bringing up the fact that the great Replacement White genocide

1197
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 1: sort of conspiracy theory that seems to have motivated this

1198
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 1: fellow is basically identical to Ship Tucker Carlson says, that's

1199
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 1: not not that that's not what radicalized him though, but

1200
01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 1: that's not what radicalized Yes, this is not a dude

1201
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 1: who was watching Fox right. That's something I've been frustrated

1202
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 1: by looking at the discourse because yes, obviously Tucker shouldn't

1203
01:10:52,160 --> 01:10:54,880
Speaker 1: be talking about this because he's normalizing this very rhetoric

1204
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 1: that you find in these manifestos, but he did. He

1205
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:00,519
Speaker 1: did not find this from Tucker. This is like it's

1206
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:04,120
Speaker 1: it's it's a whole whole different ball game. Um. And

1207
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:05,800
Speaker 1: when there's that conflation, I do find it to be

1208
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 1: slightly frustrating. Yeah, And some of the problem with discussing

1209
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:14,679
Speaker 1: this is the problem with discussing basically any of these attacks,

1210
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 1: is that the mass media coverage of it is nearly

1211
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:21,000
Speaker 1: always going to flatten it to a degree that works

1212
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:23,960
Speaker 1: in the favor of the people who are using this

1213
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:28,519
Speaker 1: as propaganda of the deed. And we can talk about

1214
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:31,800
Speaker 1: maybe are there ways to detern that you know, I've

1215
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:34,200
Speaker 1: I've definitely that's something that I've spent a decent amount

1216
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:37,040
Speaker 1: of my career kind of struggling with. It's it's a

1217
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:42,120
Speaker 1: tough thing to do because, um, one of the things

1218
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:44,160
Speaker 1: that's very frustrating that we've we've seen in the wake

1219
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:45,599
Speaker 1: of this attack, and that we see in the wake

1220
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:50,559
Speaker 1: of basically every politically motivated attack is a whole bunch

1221
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:53,719
Speaker 1: of people from a whole different bunch of belief systems,

1222
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:58,679
Speaker 1: insides immediately trying to spin it in order to push

1223
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 1: the narrative if they think is useful for the attack

1224
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:04,679
Speaker 1: to have, and some of them believe legitimately what they're saying.

1225
01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 1: Like the folks, I think most of the people who

1226
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 1: are like this is you know, Tucker Carlson's doing are

1227
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:11,360
Speaker 1: generally just folks who have not spent as much time

1228
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:14,479
Speaker 1: in the fever swamps as we have. And see, oh,

1229
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:16,759
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson's talking about this this guy carried out of shooting.

1230
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 1: They must be related, right. I don't think that's like,

1231
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:20,800
Speaker 1: that's wrong, but I don't think that's malicious. And then

1232
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 1: you get folks who are malicious with it, right, like

1233
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 1: you have stuff the folks right one of the one

1234
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:30,439
Speaker 1: of the narratives we've seen form, particularly from what I

1235
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 1: like to call the ship head left. Um is folks

1236
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:35,640
Speaker 1: being like, well, there was a sun and rod, the

1237
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:39,640
Speaker 1: black sun. It's a Nazi a culti symbol. People who

1238
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:41,560
Speaker 1: are more nerds about Nazis will even quipped that, but

1239
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 1: that's that's the broad strokes of what it is, um.

1240
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 1: And it's it's a symbol that's definitely on some as

1241
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:48,479
Speaker 1: of gear. It's also on a has been on a

1242
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:52,400
Speaker 1: bunch of ships well before there was an as. It's

1243
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:55,920
Speaker 1: all over the place. And um, the reason he did it,

1244
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 1: the reason he had a black sun on some ship

1245
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:01,600
Speaker 1: was not because of the as of but allien um it.

1246
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 1: In fact, he talked about wanting to break up NATO

1247
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:06,599
Speaker 1: a bunch, but it was because the son and rad

1248
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:09,240
Speaker 1: was on the chest of the plate carrier of the

1249
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:12,519
Speaker 1: christ Church Shooter. Yes, but there's always a big fan

1250
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:14,800
Speaker 1: of the christ Church Shooter. There's all of these people

1251
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:18,240
Speaker 1: who are like, yeah, authoritarian left or whatever, who are

1252
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:22,400
Speaker 1: being like, oh, how can Americans condemn this attack when

1253
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:27,400
Speaker 1: this guy is using as of imagery and there there's

1254
01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:29,320
Speaker 1: no telling how genuine they are with this, Like there's

1255
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:32,320
Speaker 1: there's no telling if if they actually know what they're doing,

1256
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:34,280
Speaker 1: or if they're just or if they're just being like

1257
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 1: if they're purposely misinformed, or what's going on. It's like

1258
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 1: he doesn't mind, it doesn't matter. But yeah, my my

1259
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:46,840
Speaker 1: assumption with those folks is that they are doing it

1260
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:52,599
Speaker 1: because if you are a competent, paid propagandist, you want

1261
01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:55,080
Speaker 1: to always be pushing the narrative in a way that

1262
01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 1: furthers whatever it is your job to push. And if

1263
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:02,280
Speaker 1: your job is connecting Ukraine to every bad thing that happens,

1264
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 1: and a mass shooting that has nothing to fucking do

1265
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 1: with with Ukraine or the Ukrainian government, um, if you

1266
01:14:09,400 --> 01:14:11,720
Speaker 1: can connect it back to them, then you're back in

1267
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:14,519
Speaker 1: your wheelhouse, right, Because maybe you're not so strong talking

1268
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:16,760
Speaker 1: about the fact that you and some of the people

1269
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:19,800
Speaker 1: around you have been friendly with fucking Tucker Carlson. Uh

1270
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:21,760
Speaker 1: and he pushes a similar narrative to the one this

1271
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:25,040
Speaker 1: mass shooter used. Maybe that's uncomfortable. What is comfortable is saying, no,

1272
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:27,040
Speaker 1: this guy who did this bad thing is tied to

1273
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:30,280
Speaker 1: these other bad people who are tied to this group

1274
01:14:30,400 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 1: that my entire career is about attacking. That's a much

1275
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:36,200
Speaker 1: stronger position to be in, you know, if you're you know,

1276
01:14:36,360 --> 01:14:39,280
Speaker 1: a propagandist. It's just like you see folks on the

1277
01:14:39,400 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 1: right who don't want to grapple with the fact that

1278
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:42,519
Speaker 1: this was a right wing or who carried out a

1279
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:46,000
Speaker 1: terrorist attack, um, based on an ideology that even motherfucking

1280
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:49,160
Speaker 1: Ben Shapiro has pushed elements of. Um, you don't want

1281
01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 1: to deal with that, So you call him a leftist

1282
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:53,040
Speaker 1: because we saw the same thing with christ Turn he

1283
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 1: could Yeah, he made a couple of vague he's not

1284
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:57,720
Speaker 1: a leftist. He repeatedly identified himself as right wing and

1285
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 1: as a fascist, as a Nazi, UM, as an ethno nationalist, UM.

1286
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:05,600
Speaker 1: But he made like a couple of vague comments that

1287
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:07,800
Speaker 1: they're taking out of context and being like, see, he

1288
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:10,400
Speaker 1: was on the left, but she wanted to happen what

1289
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:12,280
Speaker 1: he wanted to happen. That's why he put it in there. Right,

1290
01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 1: It's like it is like it is all part of

1291
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:17,639
Speaker 1: the bit, it's all this, it's it's it's it's all

1292
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:20,400
Speaker 1: of this like like irony poisoned thing that they do

1293
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:23,439
Speaker 1: on purpose to give any one a propaganda out or

1294
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:27,360
Speaker 1: give anyone a propaganda. It's all yeah, if you'll remember

1295
01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:29,840
Speaker 1: it before, it's not it's not new, but it's frustrating yea.

1296
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:34,000
Speaker 1: In the christ Church Manifesto, tarrant Um said that he'd

1297
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:37,680
Speaker 1: been radicalized by Candice Owens, who's like a person who

1298
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:39,200
Speaker 1: says a bunch of shitty, fucked up stuff. I don't

1299
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 1: like Candace Owens, but like had nothing to do with

1300
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:43,800
Speaker 1: that guy's radicalization, right, Like, that's not that's not where

1301
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:46,479
Speaker 1: he's fucking coming from. Um. But he did it because

1302
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:48,639
Speaker 1: he wanted to, because because it's sucking. It's ship posting,

1303
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:50,240
Speaker 1: you know, it's to muddy the water. It's to get

1304
01:15:50,280 --> 01:15:55,360
Speaker 1: people like it's too it's to reduce the ability of

1305
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:59,280
Speaker 1: people trying to grapple with what has happened, to accurately

1306
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:02,840
Speaker 1: see what has happened and accurately identify the problem and

1307
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:04,920
Speaker 1: respond to A big, big motive for this stuff is

1308
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:08,680
Speaker 1: to cause this kind of social and discourse chaos. Right.

1309
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 1: They want people, they want everyone to be confused, and

1310
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:15,200
Speaker 1: they want everyone to be fighting each other and distance

1311
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:17,599
Speaker 1: agreeing on basic terms, right, and the whole the whole

1312
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:20,519
Speaker 1: point of this is to encourage gun control legislation, which

1313
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:22,120
Speaker 1: we'll get the right match to cause people to be

1314
01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:24,760
Speaker 1: more willing to do mass shootings or to do a

1315
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:26,640
Speaker 1: tax against government. Right, it's it's it's all part of

1316
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:32,800
Speaker 1: the very basic accelerationist like talking points and tactics. So,

1317
01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 1: and the confusion is not accidental, it's all it's it's

1318
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:38,560
Speaker 1: all in if you, I think a good way to

1319
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:41,960
Speaker 1: look at this, if you like fighter planes and helicopters

1320
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:46,120
Speaker 1: in a combat zone will have a type of countermeasure

1321
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:48,280
Speaker 1: they will launch if someone shooting a missile that's like

1322
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 1: a tracking missile, heat seeking or whatever at them. It's

1323
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:54,400
Speaker 1: called chaff, and it basically it looks to the missile

1324
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:56,720
Speaker 1: the same as a helicopter does. So you shoot a

1325
01:16:56,760 --> 01:16:58,800
Speaker 1: bunch of these out and the missile goes and hits

1326
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:00,800
Speaker 1: something that's not the fucking hell copter, but to its

1327
01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 1: sensors looks like a helicopter. That's what they're doing. They're

1328
01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:06,840
Speaker 1: shooting out chaff. They're getting you to like about box

1329
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:10,720
Speaker 1: with shadows rather than potentially landing a blow against like

1330
01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:15,400
Speaker 1: the central problem. And the central problem is not an

1331
01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:18,160
Speaker 1: easy one to grapple with without all that stuff around it, right,

1332
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:22,680
Speaker 1: because the the issue here is how the way in

1333
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:26,320
Speaker 1: which the Internet enables radicalization, the way in which online

1334
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 1: communities are prone to radicalization, UM, the way in which, uh,

1335
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:37,240
Speaker 1: the conservative media and aspects of like just basic American

1336
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:42,040
Speaker 1: history play into this specific people who want to do

1337
01:17:42,200 --> 01:17:44,880
Speaker 1: violence in this way for this reason, UM, which is

1338
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:47,320
Speaker 1: why the cops don't notice them even when they're on

1339
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:50,639
Speaker 1: their radar, which is why that like the warning signs

1340
01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:56,120
Speaker 1: don't get spotted. Um. And the ways in which, I think,

1341
01:17:56,200 --> 01:18:00,320
Speaker 1: more than anything, the ways in which the Internet has

1342
01:18:00,439 --> 01:18:04,800
Speaker 1: created a perfect incubation chamber for radical violence. And that

1343
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:07,160
Speaker 1: is one of the stories here right. UM. You know

1344
01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:10,599
Speaker 1: people are focusing on gun control, um, which this guy

1345
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:12,240
Speaker 1: bought his gun in the state of New York, which

1346
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:14,760
Speaker 1: has the most restrictive gun laws in the country. UM.

1347
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,040
Speaker 1: Was more relevant even if you're on that end, is

1348
01:18:18,479 --> 01:18:21,800
Speaker 1: this guy was deeply involved in like tactical Reddit. This

1349
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:24,479
Speaker 1: guy was heavily involved in in tactical videos and training

1350
01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:27,439
Speaker 1: videos and talking with other people about the best weapons,

1351
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:29,840
Speaker 1: the best ways to use them. And if you watch

1352
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:34,360
Speaker 1: the I don't watch the video. But he was competent,

1353
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:38,800
Speaker 1: he engaged, competently, he did he maximized his ability to

1354
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:41,960
Speaker 1: do damage he took out somebody, um with a gun

1355
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:45,200
Speaker 1: who was attempting to stop him. Um, that ship, the

1356
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:49,080
Speaker 1: stuff that he did to prepare tactically worked, and the

1357
01:18:49,720 --> 01:18:53,160
Speaker 1: kind of tactical chunks of of of reddit of the

1358
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:55,479
Speaker 1: Internet which are not all right wing, but a hell

1359
01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:56,640
Speaker 1: of a lot of them are, and a hell of

1360
01:18:56,680 --> 01:18:58,759
Speaker 1: a lot of them have gone in very scary directions

1361
01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:01,600
Speaker 1: in the last couple of years. Um. Not only do

1362
01:19:01,680 --> 01:19:04,400
Speaker 1: I suspect contributed to his radicalization, but I can say

1363
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:08,880
Speaker 1: certainly contributed to his ability to effectively kill people. Yeah.

1364
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:11,160
Speaker 1: I mean he had like over five pages just on

1365
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:13,560
Speaker 1: what helmet he picked out. He had pages on what

1366
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:15,760
Speaker 1: socks he was wearing, which is not which is for

1367
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:19,280
Speaker 1: multiple reasons. It's one to make the actual act more effective.

1368
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:22,439
Speaker 1: It's two to inspire not like discourse like this, but

1369
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:25,479
Speaker 1: also to to get people to replicate what he did. Right.

1370
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:27,840
Speaker 1: It's crafting all of these symbols that people can be like,

1371
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:30,080
Speaker 1: oh he picked out these socks. I mean, I'm gonna

1372
01:19:30,240 --> 01:19:33,640
Speaker 1: these socks. It's it's it's all this branding thing. Um,

1373
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:35,439
Speaker 1: we should take we should take a break, and then

1374
01:19:35,479 --> 01:19:37,640
Speaker 1: I want to come back and talk about some me

1375
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:40,400
Speaker 1: medical language stuff. You know who else can give you

1376
01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:46,080
Speaker 1: good advice on socks? Oh all right, here's ads okay. Um,

1377
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:49,559
Speaker 1: I want to talk about some medical language stuff because

1378
01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 1: this was all heavily riffing and I specifically use the

1379
01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:56,120
Speaker 1: term riffing um off of the christ Church shooting, uh,

1380
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:58,640
Speaker 1: which itself was riffing with other stuff. Right, but he

1381
01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:01,080
Speaker 1: went so far. I mean, the the christ Church shooting

1382
01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 1: was a copycat shooting of the Anders Breddock shooting, or

1383
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:06,320
Speaker 1: at least descendant of whatever term you want to use.

1384
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:09,240
Speaker 1: But that's what inspired the christ Church shooting. And it's

1385
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:13,840
Speaker 1: I mean, he was for for the Buffalo shooting. He

1386
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:16,639
Speaker 1: was testing on different live streaming platforms. He was doing

1387
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:19,160
Speaker 1: all the stuff to craft a very specific image, and

1388
01:20:19,400 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 1: like images are very very very powerful. We've talked about

1389
01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:23,840
Speaker 1: like me magic before if we want to get silly

1390
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:27,120
Speaker 1: about it. Um, but he was very very much involved

1391
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:31,400
Speaker 1: in crafting these things that could be replicated visually. Um.

1392
01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:33,559
Speaker 1: That's that's why he wanted to live stream. It's so bad.

1393
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:36,160
Speaker 1: It's that you just the same way, the same way

1394
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:39,799
Speaker 1: of christ Church was And this is like really important

1395
01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:42,200
Speaker 1: for why we don't share this type of stuff and

1396
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:46,240
Speaker 1: why we why we specifically clamped down on this, on this,

1397
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:49,799
Speaker 1: on this style of propaganda, and why we really encourage

1398
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:51,439
Speaker 1: people not to share it, not to look at it,

1399
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:54,160
Speaker 1: not to do that stuff. Because he he does in

1400
01:20:54,240 --> 01:20:56,599
Speaker 1: the few parts of the manifest that that he did right, Um,

1401
01:20:57,040 --> 01:20:59,000
Speaker 1: he does. He did say like watching the christ Church

1402
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:02,040
Speaker 1: video was very impactful for him, which I don't disagree with.

1403
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:06,400
Speaker 1: I'm sure, I'm sure it was. He he did even

1404
01:21:06,479 --> 01:21:09,240
Speaker 1: and he did great links to recreate um. And this

1405
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:12,120
Speaker 1: is why we people who are like researchers and people

1406
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:14,479
Speaker 1: who kind of hand try to handle this kind of

1407
01:21:14,520 --> 01:21:18,960
Speaker 1: stuff um in like in their time on Earth, uh,

1408
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:22,439
Speaker 1: are so particular about this. Like a a thing last year,

1409
01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:24,200
Speaker 1: like a year and a half ago, there was this

1410
01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:27,880
Speaker 1: film company based in New Zealand who wanted to make

1411
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:30,720
Speaker 1: a christ Church film. Uh. And they want they were

1412
01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:33,599
Speaker 1: going to film a recreation of the shooting. But they said, like, oh,

1413
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:36,599
Speaker 1: but it's too to show the horror and to show

1414
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:39,639
Speaker 1: the impact on the victims. Doesn't fucking matter, it matter,

1415
01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 1: It matters zero amount, because once you put that language

1416
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:46,559
Speaker 1: into cinematography, you are giving them basically ammunition to help

1417
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:49,320
Speaker 1: create propaganda and will get more more people killed. This

1418
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:50,840
Speaker 1: is why the same thing we see the same thing

1419
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,920
Speaker 1: on fucking um roadblocks, we see people recreate the christ

1420
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:57,360
Speaker 1: Church shooting on roadblocks. There's actually a major problem, like

1421
01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:00,280
Speaker 1: a year ago, specifically, it was a huge problem people

1422
01:22:00,360 --> 01:22:05,120
Speaker 1: recreating the footage inside this game engine. And it's it's specifically,

1423
01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:08,800
Speaker 1: it's it's very it's a very powerful tool that they

1424
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:12,080
Speaker 1: used to spread around. It's targeted specifically people ages twelve

1425
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:15,120
Speaker 1: to eight teen. This this guy was eighteen years old. Um,

1426
01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:18,559
Speaker 1: it's he was heavily involved online gaming. He was really

1427
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:23,040
Speaker 1: heavy Reddit user, specifically, um, he loved Discord. So it's

1428
01:22:23,160 --> 01:22:25,559
Speaker 1: these are the places where where it spreads even more

1429
01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:28,439
Speaker 1: so than a now to Yeah, and I would say

1430
01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:30,559
Speaker 1: we know. And that called him like a four chance

1431
01:22:30,560 --> 01:22:33,040
Speaker 1: shooter because number one he definitely was familiar with with

1432
01:22:33,160 --> 01:22:36,080
Speaker 1: Pole and number was there he announced his livestream there.

1433
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:38,120
Speaker 1: I do agree with you read it was a bigger

1434
01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:41,040
Speaker 1: part of his radicalization. I suspect and in a lot

1435
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:44,280
Speaker 1: of and Discord probably, and I suspect he did purposefully

1436
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:48,400
Speaker 1: minimize the extent to which conversations on Discord were part

1437
01:22:48,400 --> 01:22:51,479
Speaker 1: of his radicalization journey. In particular, that would be my

1438
01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:54,880
Speaker 1: assumption at the moment, but for countering this type of rhetoric,

1439
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:57,160
Speaker 1: in this type of propaganda, right, because they're they're trying

1440
01:22:57,160 --> 01:22:59,240
Speaker 1: to make themselves look cool, they're trying to make themselves

1441
01:22:59,280 --> 01:23:01,559
Speaker 1: look tactical. They're trying to look they're trying to make

1442
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:04,040
Speaker 1: themselves they look like they're in a video game. They

1443
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:05,439
Speaker 1: make it look like they're in a movie. Right, they're

1444
01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:07,560
Speaker 1: trying to be cinematic. He was, he was testing on

1445
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:10,519
Speaker 1: different cameras. Um, he tested like a GoPro, he just said,

1446
01:23:10,520 --> 01:23:12,519
Speaker 1: he tested out his phone camera, right, trying to get

1447
01:23:12,520 --> 01:23:15,320
Speaker 1: this specific look. And we just we just talked about

1448
01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:20,280
Speaker 1: how he was tactically proficient in some ways, but in

1449
01:23:20,400 --> 01:23:23,559
Speaker 1: handling this type of thing. We have to when we're

1450
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:26,200
Speaker 1: crafting counter stuff to make this, to make this thing

1451
01:23:26,320 --> 01:23:29,600
Speaker 1: less likely, we need to not even focus on that.

1452
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 1: We need to make them look stupid, make them look juvenile,

1453
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:35,120
Speaker 1: make them look like they're pathetic, make them look like

1454
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:38,000
Speaker 1: they're stupid and silly, like they're Larper's. That's one of

1455
01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:42,120
Speaker 1: the things that saved god knows how many lives. At

1456
01:23:42,240 --> 01:23:44,400
Speaker 1: kind of the high point of the eight Chance shootings

1457
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:47,479
Speaker 1: in nineteen was that fucker in Hall, Germany, tried to

1458
01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:50,920
Speaker 1: carry one out and got the piss beat out of

1459
01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:53,600
Speaker 1: him by a dude at a mosque um and was

1460
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:56,479
Speaker 1: photographed the next day in court just covered. It's like

1461
01:23:56,680 --> 01:24:01,320
Speaker 1: beat two ship um. That image probably save some lives.

1462
01:24:01,840 --> 01:24:04,160
Speaker 1: They want to be cool, they want to be mimic,

1463
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:06,519
Speaker 1: they want to be spread around as a symbol. And

1464
01:24:07,439 --> 01:24:11,599
Speaker 1: we need, like culturally, need to. Yes, this is obviously

1465
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:14,000
Speaker 1: very scarce, this is a very real threat for many

1466
01:24:14,160 --> 01:24:16,800
Speaker 1: for many people, many people of color, many black people,

1467
01:24:16,880 --> 01:24:20,840
Speaker 1: many many Muslims, people of different religions, Jewish people, queer people.

1468
01:24:21,240 --> 01:24:24,600
Speaker 1: But we need to when when specifically crafting rhetoric and

1469
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:28,879
Speaker 1: propaganda against these things, we need to make them look pathetic,

1470
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:30,640
Speaker 1: right that that that that's what it needs to be

1471
01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:33,919
Speaker 1: framed as, because if you make them look scary and competent,

1472
01:24:34,360 --> 01:24:38,160
Speaker 1: that's actually gonna make these things worse because they love that,

1473
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:40,920
Speaker 1: right Like as if you film the Christ, if you

1474
01:24:40,960 --> 01:24:44,000
Speaker 1: do any kind of like movie about the Christ shooting,

1475
01:24:44,000 --> 01:24:45,760
Speaker 1: no matter how you shoot it, they're gonna love it.

1476
01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:48,280
Speaker 1: If you're shooting people in pain, they they want that.

1477
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 1: They want that. It's that's that's what they're looking for.

1478
01:24:51,479 --> 01:24:54,479
Speaker 1: You need to specifically frame this as these people larning

1479
01:24:54,760 --> 01:24:58,320
Speaker 1: and these people being pathetic and people being terminally online

1480
01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:01,720
Speaker 1: um and having bad social skills like you need you need,

1481
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:04,120
Speaker 1: you need to frame it in this way that makes

1482
01:25:04,200 --> 01:25:07,160
Speaker 1: them look not desirable because their whole point is to

1483
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:12,400
Speaker 1: craft is desirable and visually stunning propaganda. Um. And I think, yeah,

1484
01:25:12,439 --> 01:25:15,080
Speaker 1: that's that's that's I've been thinking about this for the

1485
01:25:15,160 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 1: past because it's just been so much. But like I

1486
01:25:19,160 --> 01:25:21,800
Speaker 1: identify these people, isn't the problem? Right? Like this guy

1487
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:24,840
Speaker 1: he was he was talked to you by by counselors

1488
01:25:24,960 --> 01:25:26,880
Speaker 1: last year because they were for he was them to

1489
01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:29,720
Speaker 1: do a school shooting. Um, Like there was a lot

1490
01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:31,840
Speaker 1: of the red flags and stuff. And like he was

1491
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:33,559
Speaker 1: he was taught, he was talked to you by people

1492
01:25:33,600 --> 01:25:36,640
Speaker 1: before this happened. Like he wasn't an unknown factor, He

1493
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:39,720
Speaker 1: wasn't an unknown of the vector to make to make this,

1494
01:25:39,960 --> 01:25:41,720
Speaker 1: to make you know, to be this a person that

1495
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:46,200
Speaker 1: can do this. But there's there's no way. People are

1496
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:49,760
Speaker 1: very people are good at finding these people before they

1497
01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:52,800
Speaker 1: do it, but we're bad at actually stopping them from

1498
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:55,559
Speaker 1: doing it once we found Once we find them, Uh,

1499
01:25:55,720 --> 01:25:58,360
Speaker 1: there's there's really no power to stop it um and

1500
01:25:58,520 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 1: interrupting any kind of radicals Asian pipeline. It's really hard,

1501
01:26:02,600 --> 01:26:04,600
Speaker 1: so it's more about laying the groundwork to make the

1502
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:08,560
Speaker 1: pipeline look pathetic so it's harder to happen again. But

1503
01:26:08,920 --> 01:26:13,240
Speaker 1: always counting this stuff is frustrating because if there's a

1504
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:16,400
Speaker 1: good strategy and wouldn't be here, be be deeply I

1505
01:26:16,680 --> 01:26:20,360
Speaker 1: want to move on to the tent in California, but

1506
01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:22,320
Speaker 1: at the at the end of this to close out,

1507
01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:27,960
Speaker 1: be deeply suspicious, if not outright contemptuous of anyone who

1508
01:26:28,120 --> 01:26:31,519
Speaker 1: posits a simple solution to these shootings, whether that solution

1509
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:35,760
Speaker 1: is gun control, whether it's expanded police powers, whether it's

1510
01:26:35,920 --> 01:26:39,080
Speaker 1: fucking arming everybody so that they can shoot shooters, anyone

1511
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:42,040
Speaker 1: who proposes a simple solution this, This is a deeply

1512
01:26:42,160 --> 01:26:47,000
Speaker 1: complicated problem, um, because we let a number of horrible,

1513
01:26:47,080 --> 01:26:50,080
Speaker 1: horrible obvious problems go on for way too long, and

1514
01:26:50,600 --> 01:26:54,479
Speaker 1: the solution to this will be painfully agonizing lee difficult

1515
01:26:54,600 --> 01:26:57,680
Speaker 1: and will take time, and there is there is not

1516
01:26:57,960 --> 01:27:02,519
Speaker 1: a simple, all encompassing way to deal with this. Um.

1517
01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:05,200
Speaker 1: One of the things that you can do right now

1518
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:08,080
Speaker 1: to better prepare yourself to potentially deal with this problem

1519
01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:11,240
Speaker 1: is take a stop the bleed course, carry an iPad

1520
01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:14,200
Speaker 1: I fact and a gunshot wound kit um as often

1521
01:27:14,280 --> 01:27:17,400
Speaker 1: as possible. And that continues to be my best immediate

1522
01:27:17,439 --> 01:27:22,040
Speaker 1: advice to people, um, because that there's no downsides to

1523
01:27:22,160 --> 01:27:24,840
Speaker 1: doing that and it could and does save lives and

1524
01:27:24,920 --> 01:27:27,800
Speaker 1: other shootings. All right, let's move on in other dudes,

1525
01:27:28,320 --> 01:27:34,000
Speaker 1: in other news. The next shooting. Yeah, hooray, Yeah, Okay,

1526
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:39,840
Speaker 1: this is a weird one, UM, and I think the

1527
01:27:40,200 --> 01:27:43,400
Speaker 1: thing we need to make clear of front is that

1528
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:47,960
Speaker 1: this happened yesterday. Um a recording still yeah, a top

1529
01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:55,360
Speaker 1: of recording. Details are still emerging, and it's weird. There's

1530
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:57,840
Speaker 1: a lot of potential to so so for people who

1531
01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:03,679
Speaker 1: don't know, Um, a Presbyterian church in California was attacked

1532
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:06,280
Speaker 1: by a Chinese guy. This is this is a time

1533
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:13,160
Speaker 1: when East Church, Um, it's mostly senior citizens. And okay,

1534
01:28:13,160 --> 01:28:16,560
Speaker 1: so there's there's a few important things up fronts that

1535
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:19,400
Speaker 1: people should probably understand about. This one is that Okay,

1536
01:28:19,560 --> 01:28:22,720
Speaker 1: so Taiwan. Taiwan is ruled by military dictatorship. But for

1537
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:25,720
Speaker 1: like basically the better part of of the post World

1538
01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:28,280
Speaker 1: War two period, it is ruled by military dictatorship run

1539
01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:31,040
Speaker 1: by the Nationalist Party of the CAMPT. The cam T

1540
01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:36,479
Speaker 1: is extraordinary in this period. It is extraordinarily violent. They

1541
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:40,240
Speaker 1: they assassinate people all over the place. They kill people

1542
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:43,120
Speaker 1: on American soil. They killed they trained death squads in

1543
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:47,439
Speaker 1: Latin America, and you know, they're they're they're known for

1544
01:28:47,520 --> 01:28:51,600
Speaker 1: the sort of humanity communism, but eventually they're sort of

1545
01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:57,120
Speaker 1: toppled by revolution isn't quite the right word. But as

1546
01:28:57,439 --> 01:28:59,400
Speaker 1: you know, the CAMPT as a party is still around

1547
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:00,840
Speaker 1: today and as one of the two sort of major

1548
01:29:01,640 --> 01:29:05,840
Speaker 1: like Towny's political parties. But they're not like the sort

1549
01:29:05,840 --> 01:29:07,800
Speaker 1: of desk they're not exactly the sort of des squad

1550
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:10,920
Speaker 1: mafia party that they were through most of the twentieth century.

1551
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:15,880
Speaker 1: Um the sort of the sort of progressive forces that

1552
01:29:16,080 --> 01:29:19,759
Speaker 1: work to overthrow the dictatorship. A lot of them coalesced

1553
01:29:19,760 --> 01:29:23,080
Speaker 1: into a party called the d d P. And one

1554
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:26,439
Speaker 1: of the things about the d DP is, and there's

1555
01:29:26,479 --> 01:29:28,519
Speaker 1: a lot of sort of complicated Towny's political stuff here,

1556
01:29:28,600 --> 01:29:31,160
Speaker 1: but they are very very closely connect connected to the

1557
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:35,360
Speaker 1: Presbyterian Church in a lot of ways. And this I

1558
01:29:35,880 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 1: don't know the specifics about this church, but there is

1559
01:29:39,280 --> 01:29:41,439
Speaker 1: there is a very strong connection between and then the

1560
01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:47,040
Speaker 1: d d P are Okay, pro independence is putting it

1561
01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:49,400
Speaker 1: too strongly. But if you're a pro independent, like you

1562
01:29:49,600 --> 01:29:51,360
Speaker 1: want to want to be an independent country and you

1563
01:29:51,400 --> 01:29:55,920
Speaker 1: don't want them to sort of like either continue, Well, okay,

1564
01:29:57,280 --> 01:30:00,640
Speaker 1: this is the problem with town these politics. It's enormously convoluted. Uh,

1565
01:30:01,840 --> 01:30:04,320
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff going on something at any time,

1566
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:06,240
Speaker 1: and these people are gonna get mad at you if

1567
01:30:06,240 --> 01:30:09,680
Speaker 1: the supplications they're making. But yeah, the short version of

1568
01:30:09,800 --> 01:30:15,320
Speaker 1: the story is that the sort of anti CCP pro

1569
01:30:15,520 --> 01:30:19,639
Speaker 1: independence e forces are and the sort of like progressive

1570
01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:21,519
Speaker 1: movement is sort of lumped into the d DP and

1571
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:25,559
Speaker 1: those are the people who are getting shot like because yeah,

1572
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:28,440
Speaker 1: because again there's there's a very strong connection between Restbyterian

1573
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:33,320
Speaker 1: Church and the p UM and the KMT who again,

1574
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:36,519
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, they've had an extremely complicated relationship with

1575
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:41,360
Speaker 1: the Communist Party over the last hundred years. It's incredibly baffling.

1576
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:46,559
Speaker 1: But they've basically swung around towards being more favorable to China.

1577
01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:50,439
Speaker 1: And there are there are some fact extremist factions of

1578
01:30:50,520 --> 01:30:54,360
Speaker 1: it that are that support unific like just unification Um,

1579
01:30:55,400 --> 01:30:59,720
Speaker 1: what seems to have happened here is okay, So this

1580
01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:05,120
Speaker 1: the shooters families seems to have been like deported from

1581
01:31:05,200 --> 01:31:10,600
Speaker 1: China to Taiwan, and he like did not like it

1582
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:15,680
Speaker 1: in Taiwan. And and this is where it starts to

1583
01:31:15,720 --> 01:31:19,400
Speaker 1: get very murky. Um. The police statement we have says

1584
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:21,680
Speaker 1: that you know, it's about sort of racial like it's

1585
01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:25,200
Speaker 1: it's it's it's an anti Taiwanese animus, but that can

1586
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:29,600
Speaker 1: mean a lot of things. And yeah, and then this

1587
01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:32,200
Speaker 1: this again, I keep saying it's murky, and it's because

1588
01:31:32,240 --> 01:31:35,200
Speaker 1: it's it's genuinely murky. There's a chance that this is

1589
01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:36,679
Speaker 1: one of one of the things that's been happening since

1590
01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:40,719
Speaker 1: the Hong Kong protests. He is a solidification in mainland

1591
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:43,639
Speaker 1: China sort of anti of anti Tiwanese sentiment has sort

1592
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:45,760
Speaker 1: of lumped in in this sort of like nationalist anti

1593
01:31:45,800 --> 01:31:48,160
Speaker 1: Hong Kong thing. There was there was a hardening of

1594
01:31:48,240 --> 01:31:54,800
Speaker 1: rhetoric against Taiwan, but also there's a lot of there's

1595
01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:58,559
Speaker 1: a lot of people in Taiwan, like like especially canti

1596
01:31:58,640 --> 01:32:02,000
Speaker 1: hardliners on the hard right who like really really really

1597
01:32:02,080 --> 01:32:06,920
Speaker 1: intensely hate like the sort of like the sort of progressive,

1598
01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:11,720
Speaker 1: anti CCP, pro independence people. And you know, and this

1599
01:32:11,840 --> 01:32:15,640
Speaker 1: is something we don't we don't know what his affiliation is.

1600
01:32:16,160 --> 01:32:18,720
Speaker 1: He was like like he was like into like his sixties, right, yeah,

1601
01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:20,240
Speaker 1: well and and this is this, this is this is

1602
01:32:20,280 --> 01:32:21,920
Speaker 1: weird because there's a lot of things that that could

1603
01:32:21,960 --> 01:32:23,400
Speaker 1: be true about this because of how old he is,

1604
01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:26,680
Speaker 1: like again, you know, I mean he is around when

1605
01:32:26,800 --> 01:32:29,439
Speaker 1: the KMT is is straight up with Deska Party, right,

1606
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:34,280
Speaker 1: so it could be that it could be she's sort

1607
01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:40,800
Speaker 1: of like independently radicalized. There's been some like rumors might

1608
01:32:40,840 --> 01:32:44,160
Speaker 1: be too weak of a word, but there there there

1609
01:32:44,200 --> 01:32:48,000
Speaker 1: have been some kind of sketchy reporting that like his

1610
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:50,240
Speaker 1: ex was leaving for Taiwan and that that may have

1611
01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:55,479
Speaker 1: played a part in it. But you know, violence between

1612
01:32:55,640 --> 01:32:58,080
Speaker 1: the KMT and people who don't like the KMT is

1613
01:32:58,680 --> 01:33:01,640
Speaker 1: a the that there wasn't a There was a very

1614
01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:04,160
Speaker 1: large amount of in the US for a lot of reasons.

1615
01:33:04,240 --> 01:33:06,559
Speaker 1: And even though the CAMT is sort of like I mean,

1616
01:33:06,600 --> 01:33:10,640
Speaker 1: the their alignment that China has like flipped in the

1617
01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:15,439
Speaker 1: past about forty years, I I don't know, I'm really

1618
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:18,240
Speaker 1: really desperately hoping that that's this isn't going to set

1619
01:33:18,280 --> 01:33:21,240
Speaker 1: off because I mean there's already been a lot of

1620
01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:24,160
Speaker 1: especially around Hong Kong, there's been a lot of physical violence,

1621
01:33:24,240 --> 01:33:28,479
Speaker 1: like people attack each other at protests about between for example,

1622
01:33:28,479 --> 01:33:30,840
Speaker 1: people who's prot their Hong Kong protests and Chinese like

1623
01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:39,519
Speaker 1: CCP nationalists. But this is something different, very weird, very

1624
01:33:39,560 --> 01:33:41,160
Speaker 1: embedded in the time in these context and I don't

1625
01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:45,360
Speaker 1: think we fully understand what's going on here. Um, the

1626
01:33:45,439 --> 01:33:47,519
Speaker 1: everything again is like this guy like he lived in

1627
01:33:47,560 --> 01:33:50,960
Speaker 1: times one, like he was speaking Taiwanese, like when when

1628
01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:52,960
Speaker 1: he was essentially like going into this church to infiltrate

1629
01:33:52,960 --> 01:33:55,840
Speaker 1: before we shot everyone. So like he this isn't like this.

1630
01:33:56,320 --> 01:33:58,040
Speaker 1: This this is and I think people are reporting it

1631
01:33:58,160 --> 01:34:00,280
Speaker 1: like this because they don't know what's going on. But

1632
01:34:00,360 --> 01:34:02,280
Speaker 1: like this, this isn't a case of like a guy

1633
01:34:02,479 --> 01:34:05,600
Speaker 1: who is from mainland China who like decided that he

1634
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:07,280
Speaker 1: hated to time when these people like this, he he

1635
01:34:07,520 --> 01:34:10,400
Speaker 1: was there, he like he speaks, he speaks time when

1636
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:15,479
Speaker 1: he's he like understands the time when he's political situation

1637
01:34:15,920 --> 01:34:18,080
Speaker 1: very in depth, which presumably is why he targeted the

1638
01:34:18,120 --> 01:34:24,559
Speaker 1: specific church. But other than that, it's it's the motives

1639
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:27,920
Speaker 1: are still kind of murky. And this is the other

1640
01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:30,680
Speaker 1: problem with it, which is that like the sheriff's like

1641
01:34:31,240 --> 01:34:35,240
Speaker 1: there's no way that the sheriffs have any idea what

1642
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:37,880
Speaker 1: they're looking at, like that they're apparently reading his personal notes,

1643
01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:41,720
Speaker 1: and it's like, I don't trust their analysis of it.

1644
01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:46,080
Speaker 1: Good lord, no, yeah, like these if you weren't here,

1645
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:48,479
Speaker 1: we would have to find someone else who understands that

1646
01:34:48,840 --> 01:34:51,000
Speaker 1: conflict in order to talk about it. I don't feel

1647
01:34:51,040 --> 01:34:54,519
Speaker 1: comfortable like trying to figure out or analyze that guy's notes.

1648
01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:58,360
Speaker 1: I sure as ship don't trust some fucking sheriff's like, yeah,

1649
01:34:58,439 --> 01:35:04,760
Speaker 1: this I don't know, And I think that that's I

1650
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:06,280
Speaker 1: don't know. I will say like this, I think was

1651
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:09,559
Speaker 1: like the worst possible scenario for what that shooting is about,

1652
01:35:09,720 --> 01:35:13,719
Speaker 1: because this is a kind of this is a kind

1653
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:20,519
Speaker 1: of violence that was really intense, like right after World

1654
01:35:20,560 --> 01:35:23,320
Speaker 1: War Two and sort of like and you know, there

1655
01:35:23,360 --> 01:35:25,920
Speaker 1: there's been periods where like, yeah, I mean people have

1656
01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:29,000
Speaker 1: been like people have gotten killed here, but it hasn't

1657
01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:35,040
Speaker 1: been that violent in a long time. And I don't know,

1658
01:35:35,120 --> 01:35:38,120
Speaker 1: I'm hoping this is just one guy who had a

1659
01:35:38,160 --> 01:35:42,519
Speaker 1: particular grievance who I don't know, like was it was

1660
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:44,600
Speaker 1: pushed by sort of external factors. But if this is

1661
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:48,080
Speaker 1: a sign of like if this is a sign of

1662
01:35:48,160 --> 01:35:52,120
Speaker 1: sort of anti Tiwanese like nationally, well, okay, so there's

1663
01:35:52,160 --> 01:35:54,439
Speaker 1: one other thing that that we need to talk about

1664
01:35:54,760 --> 01:35:59,400
Speaker 1: because that's unclear because there's two kinds of potential right

1665
01:35:59,439 --> 01:36:01,639
Speaker 1: when Chinese actually lizab met play here, and it's unclear

1666
01:36:01,680 --> 01:36:05,599
Speaker 1: which one is happening because there are there are people

1667
01:36:05,640 --> 01:36:08,640
Speaker 1: who are right wing Chinese nationalists who are like pro

1668
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:12,160
Speaker 1: CCP right, but there's also a kind of like a

1669
01:36:12,280 --> 01:36:16,280
Speaker 1: kind of like it shifted, but there's also like a

1670
01:36:16,840 --> 01:36:21,280
Speaker 1: a like a KMG nationalist based right wing Chinese nationalism

1671
01:36:21,360 --> 01:36:24,320
Speaker 1: which favors sort of like reunification with China, but is

1672
01:36:24,560 --> 01:36:27,800
Speaker 1: is not the same thing as as the sort of

1673
01:36:27,880 --> 01:36:31,800
Speaker 1: mainland nationalism and has its own particular, like very local

1674
01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:35,519
Speaker 1: political grudges like with with the d DP and with

1675
01:36:35,760 --> 01:36:42,080
Speaker 1: the sort of like progressive movements in time one and

1676
01:36:43,240 --> 01:36:45,840
Speaker 1: I don't know and anything beyond that is kind of

1677
01:36:46,080 --> 01:36:47,760
Speaker 1: like trying to figure out which one it is, like

1678
01:36:47,880 --> 01:36:50,280
Speaker 1: we just don't know unless the police, unless the police

1679
01:36:50,280 --> 01:36:53,760
Speaker 1: actually decide to like show us this guy's notes or

1680
01:36:54,200 --> 01:36:57,760
Speaker 1: like give us recordings of what he's been saying. Uh,

1681
01:36:57,960 --> 01:37:00,360
Speaker 1: we're not gonna know. And maybe maybe by the time

1682
01:37:00,400 --> 01:37:03,000
Speaker 1: this is out, like they will be more stuff. But

1683
01:37:03,640 --> 01:37:09,000
Speaker 1: right now it's very muddled, very bad. The fact that

1684
01:37:09,040 --> 01:37:12,000
Speaker 1: this guy also I think was an American citizen but

1685
01:37:12,200 --> 01:37:18,240
Speaker 1: was born in China has gotten every like even even

1686
01:37:18,280 --> 01:37:23,080
Speaker 1: the Chinese media outlets are saying extremely weird stuff because

1687
01:37:23,080 --> 01:37:26,439
Speaker 1: they're confused by it. So it is a it is

1688
01:37:26,479 --> 01:37:34,599
Speaker 1: a muddled is a muddled mess, I mean, and everything

1689
01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:36,639
Speaker 1: about this last weekend's been uddled. There's been so many

1690
01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:40,959
Speaker 1: different mass shootings this weekend, there's been people being paranoid

1691
01:37:41,040 --> 01:37:45,519
Speaker 1: about copycat mass shootings. And now yesterday there was reporting

1692
01:37:46,200 --> 01:37:50,680
Speaker 1: that a gunman entered a church in Buffalo. Um. That

1693
01:37:50,920 --> 01:37:56,000
Speaker 1: was not actually true. It's someone someone in the church yelled, um,

1694
01:37:56,760 --> 01:38:00,200
Speaker 1: like there's a gunman or something or like or like

1695
01:38:00,439 --> 01:38:02,639
Speaker 1: get the gun down or something, um, and it caused

1696
01:38:02,680 --> 01:38:05,600
Speaker 1: people to create this this kind of rumor, but that

1697
01:38:05,800 --> 01:38:07,400
Speaker 1: there wasn't actually someone with a gun. It was it

1698
01:38:07,520 --> 01:38:10,640
Speaker 1: was this someone was like reacting to the sermon that

1699
01:38:10,760 --> 01:38:14,400
Speaker 1: was that that was being had. Um. But yeah, everyone's

1700
01:38:14,439 --> 01:38:17,599
Speaker 1: been super paranoid about every stuff and all this kind

1701
01:38:17,640 --> 01:38:20,280
Speaker 1: of stuff as as they should be. So sorting through

1702
01:38:21,520 --> 01:38:24,880
Speaker 1: sorting through all this stuff is very complicated and uh,

1703
01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:27,920
Speaker 1: not a great time because it's not it's not fun um,

1704
01:38:27,960 --> 01:38:31,160
Speaker 1: and we shouldn't have to do it, but it sucks.

1705
01:38:32,160 --> 01:38:34,599
Speaker 1: Do you think it's also worth noting that the police

1706
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:38,080
Speaker 1: did not stop uh, I know, specifically they did not

1707
01:38:38,160 --> 01:38:43,000
Speaker 1: stop the one in the church, the past pastor, a

1708
01:38:43,080 --> 01:38:48,040
Speaker 1: pastor hit the hit him with a hit him chair,

1709
01:38:49,040 --> 01:38:51,280
Speaker 1: and then they hog tied him with an extension toward

1710
01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:55,519
Speaker 1: and then the police came, which is so um. I'm

1711
01:38:55,560 --> 01:38:57,760
Speaker 1: sorry they were ever in that position. They should never

1712
01:38:57,840 --> 01:38:59,960
Speaker 1: have to be in that position, but it's turned out

1713
01:39:00,200 --> 01:39:03,880
Speaker 1: more and more people are having to do because it's

1714
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:05,960
Speaker 1: not also the first time that a mass shooter has

1715
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:07,720
Speaker 1: been stopped by someone hitting them with a chair. If

1716
01:39:07,720 --> 01:39:11,240
Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, that's how the Gifford shooter was stopped eventually,

1717
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:13,160
Speaker 1: or part of how he was stopped to somebody fucking

1718
01:39:13,200 --> 01:39:17,280
Speaker 1: decked him with a chair. Yeah, it's it's really useful

1719
01:39:17,320 --> 01:39:21,479
Speaker 1: to have something beyond just your limbs. If someone is

1720
01:39:21,520 --> 01:39:24,559
Speaker 1: trying to shoot you with a gun, ideally you get

1721
01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:26,880
Speaker 1: away but if you can't get away, trying to hit

1722
01:39:26,920 --> 01:39:29,800
Speaker 1: them in the face with something heavy is certainly a

1723
01:39:30,040 --> 01:39:36,320
Speaker 1: choice that has saved a number of people's lives. God what,

1724
01:39:36,920 --> 01:39:40,360
Speaker 1: what an absolutely dogshit country. It's not a great time.

1725
01:39:40,400 --> 01:39:43,519
Speaker 1: And when I you know, I noted earlier anyone trying

1726
01:39:43,560 --> 01:39:45,720
Speaker 1: to sell you like simple solutions, and I mentioned gun

1727
01:39:45,760 --> 01:39:47,200
Speaker 1: control on that, which is not to say that like

1728
01:39:47,479 --> 01:39:51,680
Speaker 1: the outrageously easy, how how ridiculously easy it is to

1729
01:39:51,720 --> 01:39:53,559
Speaker 1: get any kind of gun in this country. Obviously that's

1730
01:39:53,560 --> 01:39:58,600
Speaker 1: a factor in these shootings. My my um hesitance to

1731
01:39:58,640 --> 01:40:00,800
Speaker 1: take gun control as a if you'll forgive the term

1732
01:40:00,840 --> 01:40:02,800
Speaker 1: magic bullet to fix any of this is number one,

1733
01:40:03,080 --> 01:40:05,960
Speaker 1: the sheer number of guns that are already propagated. Number two,

1734
01:40:06,040 --> 01:40:08,639
Speaker 1: the fact that a lot of gun control measures boiled

1735
01:40:08,640 --> 01:40:10,599
Speaker 1: down to making it harder for poor people to get guns,

1736
01:40:10,640 --> 01:40:12,880
Speaker 1: and neither of these shootings seem to have been poor

1737
01:40:12,920 --> 01:40:17,479
Speaker 1: people shooting up um folks. And uh just also the

1738
01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:20,920
Speaker 1: fact that while some states are capable of passing additional

1739
01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:24,320
Speaker 1: gun control. Number one, New York's basically done everything it's

1740
01:40:24,360 --> 01:40:29,800
Speaker 1: constitutional to do are e restricting gun ownership um and federally,

1741
01:40:30,400 --> 01:40:34,120
Speaker 1: Biden and their Dems can't protect Roe v. Wade. There's

1742
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:37,840
Speaker 1: sure a ship not gonna pass any federal people want

1743
01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:40,360
Speaker 1: as well, Like they're specifically doing this to get this

1744
01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:44,080
Speaker 1: stuff started so that it increases plays. Whether or not

1745
01:40:44,720 --> 01:40:47,160
Speaker 1: to agree with my fundamental claim, you don't have to.

1746
01:40:47,880 --> 01:40:50,920
Speaker 1: You can believe that if gun control were to be passed,

1747
01:40:51,040 --> 01:40:53,840
Speaker 1: it could be the solution, but it's not gonna be.

1748
01:40:54,320 --> 01:40:58,000
Speaker 1: And so like as as regards those of us trying

1749
01:40:58,040 --> 01:41:00,880
Speaker 1: to survive, um, we have have to look in other

1750
01:41:00,960 --> 01:41:03,479
Speaker 1: directions because you're not going to get an assault weapon

1751
01:41:03,520 --> 01:41:07,920
Speaker 1: span it's just not happening. Yeah, I mean the one

1752
01:41:08,000 --> 01:41:11,479
Speaker 1: good I don't I don't say good thing. But it

1753
01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:16,560
Speaker 1: has been nice to see people slowly uh dropping the

1754
01:41:16,720 --> 01:41:20,559
Speaker 1: whole like load wolf terminology, that is a positive development

1755
01:41:20,560 --> 01:41:22,680
Speaker 1: because these are not not a load wolf. It's it's

1756
01:41:22,720 --> 01:41:25,400
Speaker 1: part of a very it's part of an intentional effort

1757
01:41:25,520 --> 01:41:28,640
Speaker 1: to cause these things to happen. Part the groups may

1758
01:41:28,680 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 1: be decentralized, but they are not anything they are but

1759
01:41:32,200 --> 01:41:36,240
Speaker 1: they Yeah, they are decentralized in acephalis, but they are deeply,

1760
01:41:36,840 --> 01:41:41,600
Speaker 1: deeply sophisticated and connected, just not in a way you

1761
01:41:41,680 --> 01:41:45,640
Speaker 1: can drone strike easily. Well, yeah, and I think I

1762
01:41:46,200 --> 01:41:53,080
Speaker 1: would have some target suggestions anyway, get knifefac, do stop,

1763
01:41:55,520 --> 01:41:58,280
Speaker 1: and don't don't feed into their propaganda in the way

1764
01:41:58,920 --> 01:42:09,799
Speaker 1: their propaganda um organized with folks in your neighborhood. Yeah, okay,

1765
01:42:10,640 --> 01:42:16,680
Speaker 1: well kids, adults, boys and girls, and individuals of non

1766
01:42:16,800 --> 01:42:20,880
Speaker 1: binary or other gender identities. Uh. Cats who happened to

1767
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:25,559
Speaker 1: be listening in um Airwolf the helicopter if you're listening

1768
01:42:25,600 --> 01:42:31,120
Speaker 1: in everybody, every sentient creature listening. You know, I do

1769
01:42:31,280 --> 01:42:35,360
Speaker 1: believe that things can get better. So part of that

1770
01:42:35,840 --> 01:42:40,960
Speaker 1: is not letting the crimes that these the things that

1771
01:42:41,040 --> 01:42:43,360
Speaker 1: these people do, Like, part of the purpose of an

1772
01:42:43,360 --> 01:42:47,320
Speaker 1: attack like this is to make people feel hopeless and overwhelmed.

1773
01:42:47,840 --> 01:42:51,240
Speaker 1: It's to blackpill you, you know, to to to utilize

1774
01:42:51,280 --> 01:42:56,040
Speaker 1: some of their terminology. So the way to fight against

1775
01:42:56,120 --> 01:42:59,479
Speaker 1: it is, among other things, if you're talking about immediate

1776
01:42:59,560 --> 01:43:03,200
Speaker 1: things you can and do, go out and do something

1777
01:43:03,320 --> 01:43:06,160
Speaker 1: nice to help people. Yeah, and you know, I would

1778
01:43:06,160 --> 01:43:08,719
Speaker 1: say like as as a sort of like one brief

1779
01:43:08,800 --> 01:43:10,880
Speaker 1: last note, like, yeah, like in Taiwan, they overtow the

1780
01:43:10,880 --> 01:43:13,679
Speaker 1: dictatorship and oh hey, it turns out people stop getting

1781
01:43:13,680 --> 01:43:17,920
Speaker 1: assassinated by the knteen American soil. So, you know, over

1782
01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:20,280
Speaker 1: overthrow your governments, and you too can make peace with

1783
01:43:20,320 --> 01:43:25,640
Speaker 1: your enemies. Yeah, overthrow your government, overthrow another government. You know,

1784
01:43:25,840 --> 01:43:43,439
Speaker 1: it's all good. It's all good baby. Hello everyone, welcome

1785
01:43:43,479 --> 01:43:45,720
Speaker 1: to It could happen here at the podcast about things

1786
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:49,320
Speaker 1: falling apart and sometimes have you come put them back together.

1787
01:43:50,280 --> 01:43:55,360
Speaker 1: Today it's me Garrison, Chris, our producer, Sophie and Uh.

1788
01:43:55,439 --> 01:43:59,400
Speaker 1: Andrew joins us. Once again. I love that guy. Oh

1789
01:43:59,479 --> 01:44:05,600
Speaker 1: me too, me too, Hi everyone us another episode of

1790
01:44:06,280 --> 01:44:10,880
Speaker 1: Andrew talking about whatever he feels like talking about. Okay,

1791
01:44:13,160 --> 01:44:16,120
Speaker 1: today's episode, Um, I am happy to announce that I

1792
01:44:16,320 --> 01:44:25,240
Speaker 1: finally finally finished Don't Have Everything by gradually. It took

1793
01:44:25,439 --> 01:44:27,599
Speaker 1: it took a while, you know, there was some points

1794
01:44:27,640 --> 01:44:29,479
Speaker 1: in time, some weeks it just went by. Why I

1795
01:44:29,479 --> 01:44:32,920
Speaker 1: didn't even like make a dent um. You know, life

1796
01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:35,200
Speaker 1: got in the way and stuff. But I finally finally

1797
01:44:35,240 --> 01:44:37,960
Speaker 1: finished it and I get to talk about it and say,

1798
01:44:38,600 --> 01:44:41,679
Speaker 1: you know, with some authority that I've read Don't Have Everything.

1799
01:44:42,680 --> 01:44:46,640
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, it's a very dense book, but it

1800
01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:49,120
Speaker 1: was worth it. I mean, there are some critiques that

1801
01:44:49,240 --> 01:44:54,439
Speaker 1: I've been taking into by some authors in the field. UM,

1802
01:44:54,600 --> 01:44:56,679
Speaker 1: And so I highly reco when people look for critiques

1803
01:44:56,720 --> 01:44:59,160
Speaker 1: as well, not just you know, taking it and consuming

1804
01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:03,840
Speaker 1: who will sale, but in addition to those critiques like

1805
01:45:03,960 --> 01:45:07,599
Speaker 1: on with those critiques, um, such as by people like um,

1806
01:45:07,720 --> 01:45:10,160
Speaker 1: what is politics on YouTube? And also a couple of

1807
01:45:10,160 --> 01:45:12,479
Speaker 1: academic writers as well, I think you could get a

1808
01:45:12,520 --> 01:45:15,599
Speaker 1: lot out of the book, and I certainly have. Yeah,

1809
01:45:15,640 --> 01:45:16,800
Speaker 1: this is it. This is a this is a very

1810
01:45:16,840 --> 01:45:18,559
Speaker 1: good book. And I'm excited to talk about it because

1811
01:45:18,560 --> 01:45:22,519
Speaker 1: I read it like it was a while ago now

1812
01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:30,120
Speaker 1: like it's like five months ago or something. Didn't talk

1813
01:45:30,160 --> 01:45:35,240
Speaker 1: about it. I've been like waiting for I've been trying.

1814
01:45:35,240 --> 01:45:37,960
Speaker 1: I've been I've been picking up bits and pieces of it,

1815
01:45:38,120 --> 01:45:41,880
Speaker 1: but unfortunately my book list to get through is way

1816
01:45:41,920 --> 01:45:44,120
Speaker 1: too long at the moment, so I've not been able

1817
01:45:44,160 --> 01:45:48,840
Speaker 1: to actually dive fully into the text itself. Um. But

1818
01:45:49,000 --> 01:45:51,639
Speaker 1: it is definitely on my lest after I get through

1819
01:45:51,720 --> 01:45:55,960
Speaker 1: my twenty other books I need to read for my job. Yeah,

1820
01:45:56,000 --> 01:45:58,240
Speaker 1: it's a lot, it's a lot. Um. At least we

1821
01:45:58,320 --> 01:46:00,599
Speaker 1: got to read books for a living. It was something

1822
01:46:00,600 --> 01:46:05,479
Speaker 1: adjacent to that. Um. And I mean it is a

1823
01:46:05,640 --> 01:46:08,599
Speaker 1: difficult book. I would say to like discussing its entirety,

1824
01:46:08,640 --> 01:46:11,599
Speaker 1: and I didn't. I don't tend to not to read

1825
01:46:11,600 --> 01:46:14,120
Speaker 1: any parator or anything, Chris, but I don't tend to

1826
01:46:14,240 --> 01:46:16,760
Speaker 1: talk about the entire book, you know, because that's like

1827
01:46:17,720 --> 01:46:21,639
Speaker 1: several hundred pages. Yeah, you know, and each chapter covers

1828
01:46:21,720 --> 01:46:24,479
Speaker 1: like so so much UM. But I actually wanted to

1829
01:46:24,560 --> 01:46:29,799
Speaker 1: talk about chapter four in particular, UM, where the authors

1830
01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:35,960
Speaker 1: explore the concept and the origins in a sense of cultures, UM.

1831
01:46:36,040 --> 01:46:40,000
Speaker 1: In one particular segment, I mean a lot of mysteries

1832
01:46:40,120 --> 01:46:44,640
Speaker 1: of the upper pyliarithic that we don't know, right, I mean,

1833
01:46:44,800 --> 01:46:48,439
Speaker 1: that's why the mysteries, um. But you know, we've come

1834
01:46:48,479 --> 01:46:50,240
Speaker 1: to learn, you know, through the course of the book

1835
01:46:50,360 --> 01:46:53,800
Speaker 1: that this assumption that everything was just these small tight

1836
01:46:53,880 --> 01:46:56,760
Speaker 1: nic bands, um, and that was just the entirety of

1837
01:46:56,880 --> 01:47:01,040
Speaker 1: the human social arrangement into the States. You know, at

1838
01:47:01,120 --> 01:47:04,240
Speaker 1: least it's new to the layman to realize that this

1839
01:47:04,439 --> 01:47:07,559
Speaker 1: is not necessarily the case. You know, UM, that there

1840
01:47:07,720 --> 01:47:14,640
Speaker 1: is a lot more political structural, you know, dibuicity in

1841
01:47:14,760 --> 01:47:19,639
Speaker 1: that time period. We don't know at that point in time,

1842
01:47:19,680 --> 01:47:22,360
Speaker 1: you know, what languages pe who were speaking. You know,

1843
01:47:22,520 --> 01:47:25,360
Speaker 1: of course linguists have been able to like reconstruct like

1844
01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:29,600
Speaker 1: proto languages and stuff. And I mean, I'm just a

1845
01:47:29,680 --> 01:47:32,280
Speaker 1: hobby Linquist, just like I'm a hobby everything else. But

1846
01:47:32,400 --> 01:47:34,960
Speaker 1: I think it's been really cool to see how linguish

1847
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:36,439
Speaker 1: is just able to do that. Like, can we just

1848
01:47:36,479 --> 01:47:39,519
Speaker 1: take a second to realize that, like linguists able to

1849
01:47:39,600 --> 01:47:42,599
Speaker 1: take scraps of existing languages and just kind of piece

1850
01:47:42,680 --> 01:47:45,000
Speaker 1: them together to get a sense of like how they're related,

1851
01:47:45,120 --> 01:47:49,920
Speaker 1: Like how do you all do that? Um? But there's

1852
01:47:49,920 --> 01:47:51,400
Speaker 1: a lot we don't know, right, We don't know about

1853
01:47:51,400 --> 01:47:53,880
Speaker 1: their language and know about their myths, you know, um,

1854
01:47:54,520 --> 01:47:58,320
Speaker 1: their conceptions of the soul, what their favorite foods were,

1855
01:47:58,880 --> 01:48:00,720
Speaker 1: even know they ate, but we don't know what like

1856
01:48:01,680 --> 01:48:05,200
Speaker 1: Joe Skeleton thoughts about his breakfast that morning. But what

1857
01:48:05,320 --> 01:48:07,439
Speaker 1: we do know is that, you know, from the Swiss

1858
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:11,120
Speaker 1: Alps to out Mongolia in the Upper Polithic people were

1859
01:48:11,280 --> 01:48:14,760
Speaker 1: using a lot of the same tools, um, playing a

1860
01:48:14,800 --> 01:48:22,200
Speaker 1: lot of similar musical instruments, carving similar rather interesting female figurines, um,

1861
01:48:22,320 --> 01:48:27,960
Speaker 1: wearing similar ornaments, and conducting similar funeral rites. And there's

1862
01:48:28,000 --> 01:48:32,400
Speaker 1: also reason to believe that people actually traveled a lot

1863
01:48:32,560 --> 01:48:35,439
Speaker 1: more than we would expect them to do, and tra

1864
01:48:35,520 --> 01:48:39,479
Speaker 1: actually traveled longer distances than we would expect for that

1865
01:48:39,560 --> 01:48:41,880
Speaker 1: time period. I mean we don't have they didn't have

1866
01:48:42,120 --> 01:48:46,960
Speaker 1: rather you know, like cars or or chariots or trains

1867
01:48:47,240 --> 01:48:50,920
Speaker 1: or planes or anything like that. So to think that

1868
01:48:52,360 --> 01:48:57,120
Speaker 1: these long distance um journeys were occurring, you know, places

1869
01:48:57,200 --> 01:49:00,720
Speaker 1: like Australia or in like North America is just really

1870
01:49:00,760 --> 01:49:02,960
Speaker 1: interesting to think about. Yeah, I was one of your

1871
01:49:03,000 --> 01:49:04,280
Speaker 1: fing talked about like one of the things I thought

1872
01:49:04,320 --> 01:49:09,920
Speaker 1: was really interesting about this is the way that they

1873
01:49:09,960 --> 01:49:13,559
Speaker 1: talk about culture areas where you have these like, yeah,

1874
01:49:14,200 --> 01:49:17,519
Speaker 1: you have these like very large I mean like almost

1875
01:49:17,560 --> 01:49:20,320
Speaker 1: like like half continent sized areas where people are speaking

1876
01:49:20,320 --> 01:49:23,120
Speaker 1: similar languages, like the same language, and you have these

1877
01:49:23,200 --> 01:49:27,720
Speaker 1: like you have like these clan structures that are like

1878
01:49:28,560 --> 01:49:30,200
Speaker 1: you know, you you you you can go from like

1879
01:49:31,160 --> 01:49:34,240
Speaker 1: and go from like Missouri, and you can end up

1880
01:49:34,240 --> 01:49:37,080
Speaker 1: in like Mississippi, and you'll be in a place where

1881
01:49:37,200 --> 01:49:39,000
Speaker 1: they still have like you know, the sort of like

1882
01:49:39,080 --> 01:49:42,680
Speaker 1: four basic like plan lodges are still the same, and

1883
01:49:42,720 --> 01:49:45,880
Speaker 1: you'll beat people who are like from your clan. And

1884
01:49:46,520 --> 01:49:49,599
Speaker 1: he has this really interesting line about how like sort

1885
01:49:49,640 --> 01:49:53,519
Speaker 1: of kind of intuitively like the world's gotten like the world,

1886
01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:56,080
Speaker 1: like even even when there was like people spread over

1887
01:49:56,160 --> 01:49:59,439
Speaker 1: geographic distance, like the world sort of got larger as

1888
01:49:59,479 --> 01:50:01,800
Speaker 1: technology you progress, and not sort of like smaller in

1889
01:50:01,880 --> 01:50:04,559
Speaker 1: the way that people sort of think about it, because

1890
01:50:06,200 --> 01:50:10,599
Speaker 1: like I don't know, instead of there being these sort

1891
01:50:10,600 --> 01:50:14,200
Speaker 1: of like mega like culture areas, you can go from

1892
01:50:14,280 --> 01:50:17,000
Speaker 1: one place to another and you'll there'll be people who

1893
01:50:17,040 --> 01:50:19,120
Speaker 1: speak the same language and you can sort of slot

1894
01:50:19,240 --> 01:50:22,439
Speaker 1: into the like systems that are there. You suddenly have

1895
01:50:22,520 --> 01:50:28,280
Speaker 1: this incredible diversity of stuff, right right, So I mean

1896
01:50:29,280 --> 01:50:32,519
Speaker 1: specific to like North America. You know, um, we had

1897
01:50:32,520 --> 01:50:36,960
Speaker 1: all these different clan structures. We usually tend to think of, um,

1898
01:50:37,800 --> 01:50:41,560
Speaker 1: you know, these groups says and you know, especially like

1899
01:50:41,720 --> 01:50:44,479
Speaker 1: your immediate relations with people that you know, it's like

1900
01:50:44,760 --> 01:50:50,439
Speaker 1: clue skin family, that kind of thing. Um. But there's actually,

1901
01:50:51,720 --> 01:50:54,439
Speaker 1: at least in some studies of hunt together as, there's

1902
01:50:54,479 --> 01:50:59,280
Speaker 1: some suggestion that their composition can be quite cosmopolitan. So,

1903
01:50:59,360 --> 01:51:03,920
Speaker 1: you know, you have these groups and biological relations might

1904
01:51:03,960 --> 01:51:06,559
Speaker 1: only make up a small percentage of like total membership.

1905
01:51:07,360 --> 01:51:10,479
Speaker 1: They're actually drawn from a wide pool of individuals of

1906
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:13,519
Speaker 1: a larger stretch of area, and you know, not all

1907
01:51:13,520 --> 01:51:17,280
Speaker 1: of them even speak necessarily the same first language. UM.

1908
01:51:17,400 --> 01:51:21,439
Speaker 1: This is YouTuber Indigenous NICs YouTuber named twin Rabbit, and

1909
01:51:21,680 --> 01:51:23,799
Speaker 1: he had this excellent, excellent video. I need to rewatch

1910
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:28,639
Speaker 1: it on planes sign language, which is this um method

1911
01:51:28,680 --> 01:51:35,080
Speaker 1: of communication that Indigenous Americans UM used across you know,

1912
01:51:35,160 --> 01:51:40,479
Speaker 1: the plans to conduct trade and diplomacy and discussions even

1913
01:51:40,520 --> 01:51:46,560
Speaker 1: if they didn't share the same language. Um. In Aboriginal Australia,

1914
01:51:47,160 --> 01:51:50,920
Speaker 1: people were able to travel halfway across the continent, moving

1915
01:51:50,920 --> 01:51:55,160
Speaker 1: across people who spoke entirely different languages and still find

1916
01:51:55,360 --> 01:51:59,439
Speaker 1: you know, camps that had people of you know, their

1917
01:51:59,520 --> 01:52:03,280
Speaker 1: same to atomic mighty you know, and those people were

1918
01:52:03,320 --> 01:52:06,000
Speaker 1: we treated like their brothers and sisters, you know, so

1919
01:52:06,120 --> 01:52:09,479
Speaker 1: like no hanky panky, but you know they had this

1920
01:52:10,040 --> 01:52:18,519
Speaker 1: this you know, cross continental bond of like hospitality. From

1921
01:52:18,560 --> 01:52:21,519
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes you know, to Louisiana Bayous, you can

1922
01:52:21,600 --> 01:52:26,759
Speaker 1: find settlements of people speaking entirely, entirely separate languages, unrelated

1923
01:52:26,800 --> 01:52:29,640
Speaker 1: to their own. And yet still you will find you know,

1924
01:52:30,160 --> 01:52:33,960
Speaker 1: bear clans or elk clans or beaver clans that we're

1925
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:37,800
Speaker 1: obliged to host and feed them, you know. UM, And

1926
01:52:37,880 --> 01:52:40,479
Speaker 1: we could only really guess as to like what kind

1927
01:52:40,520 --> 01:52:43,280
Speaker 1: of systems were like and how those systems might have

1928
01:52:43,400 --> 01:52:46,280
Speaker 1: worked for eight years ago, you know, in the upper pyioithic.

1929
01:52:46,400 --> 01:52:50,160
Speaker 1: But what we do see with the you know, similarities

1930
01:52:50,200 --> 01:52:55,320
Speaker 1: and material um uniformities and stuff of these different tools

1931
01:52:55,400 --> 01:52:58,360
Speaker 1: and musical instruments and stuff suggests that there might be

1932
01:52:59,400 --> 01:53:02,400
Speaker 1: a bit of a similar system in place at that time.

1933
01:53:03,360 --> 01:53:09,200
Speaker 1: Roughly around like twelve BC, we start seeing like new pottery,

1934
01:53:09,760 --> 01:53:12,400
Speaker 1: you know, getting dropped. We started to see the outlines

1935
01:53:12,600 --> 01:53:18,759
Speaker 1: of more specific cultures and specific areas, new stone grinding tools,

1936
01:53:19,680 --> 01:53:22,360
Speaker 1: new ways of preparing and eating wild grains and roots

1937
01:53:22,400 --> 01:53:27,120
Speaker 1: and the vegetables, um, different ways of chopping, slicing, creating, grinding,

1938
01:53:27,200 --> 01:53:31,000
Speaker 1: silk and training, boiling and storing, smoking and preserving meats,

1939
01:53:31,080 --> 01:53:33,240
Speaker 1: plant foods and fish. And so when we start to

1940
01:53:33,240 --> 01:53:36,720
Speaker 1: see something that really brings people together, and that is

1941
01:53:37,439 --> 01:53:42,679
Speaker 1: cuisine and cuisine you know, being the birth of cuisine,

1942
01:53:42,720 --> 01:53:49,479
Speaker 1: being the booth of like really more specific cultures um,

1943
01:53:49,720 --> 01:53:52,400
Speaker 1: you know, the kinds of soups and porridges and stews

1944
01:53:52,680 --> 01:53:57,439
Speaker 1: and broths. And basically what they were talking about was

1945
01:53:57,479 --> 01:53:59,680
Speaker 1: the way that people who like wake up and eat

1946
01:53:59,760 --> 01:54:04,160
Speaker 1: fish stews every morning tend to, you know, develop a

1947
01:54:04,280 --> 01:54:07,439
Speaker 1: different center themselves relation to their world, compared people who

1948
01:54:07,479 --> 01:54:10,040
Speaker 1: might wake up in the morning and eat some porridge

1949
01:54:10,160 --> 01:54:14,080
Speaker 1: with like berries and wild oats, you know, and then

1950
01:54:14,160 --> 01:54:16,920
Speaker 1: from there they start to develop different tastes and including

1951
01:54:17,160 --> 01:54:21,000
Speaker 1: you know, in in dancing and drugs and hair styles.

1952
01:54:21,600 --> 01:54:25,799
Speaker 1: I remember last are on the book um the David's

1953
01:54:25,840 --> 01:54:31,439
Speaker 1: point out that some addigenous um Nat American groups who

1954
01:54:31,439 --> 01:54:35,920
Speaker 1: actually known for specific hair styles. And I kind of

1955
01:54:36,000 --> 01:54:38,280
Speaker 1: knew that based on the fact that, you know, we

1956
01:54:38,400 --> 01:54:41,400
Speaker 1: tend to associate mohawks with people, you know, mohawke cair

1957
01:54:41,440 --> 01:54:44,160
Speaker 1: style mohawk people, but I didn't realize that, you know,

1958
01:54:44,320 --> 01:54:48,000
Speaker 1: other groups also had their own kind of like culturally

1959
01:54:48,040 --> 01:54:51,960
Speaker 1: specific hair styles, right. And there's also like courtship rituals

1960
01:54:52,080 --> 01:54:56,760
Speaker 1: and forms of kinship and styles of rhetoric, and so

1961
01:54:56,840 --> 01:54:58,960
Speaker 1: of course you still have these large cultural areas in

1962
01:54:59,000 --> 01:55:04,600
Speaker 1: the Mesolithic, larger than some nation states. But he's starting

1963
01:55:04,600 --> 01:55:06,720
Speaker 1: to see a bit more specificity, in a bit more

1964
01:55:07,640 --> 01:55:14,040
Speaker 1: diversity in shorter um spans of area. If we look

1965
01:55:14,080 --> 01:55:16,680
Speaker 1: at now, for example, where you know, we have in

1966
01:55:16,720 --> 01:55:20,080
Speaker 1: the Amazon all these different languages and cultures that co

1967
01:55:20,280 --> 01:55:24,040
Speaker 1: exist merely kilometers from each other. I think the overall

1968
01:55:24,160 --> 01:55:29,960
Speaker 1: trend of human cultures, you know, the past tens of

1969
01:55:30,000 --> 01:55:34,840
Speaker 1: thousands of years, has been the opposite of marginalization. And

1970
01:55:34,880 --> 01:55:37,360
Speaker 1: it makes me think a bit about the whole concept

1971
01:55:37,440 --> 01:55:39,200
Speaker 1: of the nation states and how it tries to like

1972
01:55:39,960 --> 01:55:43,080
Speaker 1: bring people together to this like one narrow conception of

1973
01:55:43,160 --> 01:55:44,960
Speaker 1: what it means to be you know, X, y Z,

1974
01:55:45,920 --> 01:55:52,600
Speaker 1: and how humanity naturally seems to like resist that and

1975
01:55:53,440 --> 01:55:56,000
Speaker 1: naturally seems to like split all from that. Like, even

1976
01:55:56,000 --> 01:55:59,600
Speaker 1: when you have situations with the forceful spread of English

1977
01:55:59,840 --> 01:56:02,920
Speaker 1: in you know, the Caribbean colonies, you still see like

1978
01:56:03,200 --> 01:56:05,760
Speaker 1: a diversity springing up with a bunch of different unique

1979
01:56:05,840 --> 01:56:09,880
Speaker 1: creoles and dialects making the language something different. You know what,

1980
01:56:10,360 --> 01:56:16,160
Speaker 1: if not for the enforcement of language satidization through the

1981
01:56:16,960 --> 01:56:20,120
Speaker 1: school system, I think you would actually see an even

1982
01:56:20,200 --> 01:56:27,919
Speaker 1: more rapid um explosion of you know, linguistic diversity developing

1983
01:56:27,960 --> 01:56:30,600
Speaker 1: out of these creoles and dialects. You know, like a

1984
01:56:30,680 --> 01:56:35,080
Speaker 1: couple of centuries from now, you know, Patua and and

1985
01:56:35,120 --> 01:56:40,200
Speaker 1: Creole and British English maybe entirely incompatible. Even in Britain itself.

1986
01:56:40,720 --> 01:56:44,080
Speaker 1: You know, you might have a case where London English

1987
01:56:44,200 --> 01:56:47,800
Speaker 1: and I don't know, Sussex English or whatever starts to

1988
01:56:47,880 --> 01:56:49,960
Speaker 1: sound like entirely different, and I we already have that

1989
01:56:50,080 --> 01:56:53,920
Speaker 1: with accents. But just to see how, you know, even

1990
01:56:54,000 --> 01:56:57,440
Speaker 1: in short spaces of time, a short as a century

1991
01:56:57,560 --> 01:57:02,360
Speaker 1: or two, because for example, trend add Um was not

1992
01:57:02,400 --> 01:57:05,320
Speaker 1: always an English speaking colony. Um, we actually spoke French

1993
01:57:05,360 --> 01:57:07,520
Speaker 1: creel for the most of our history and only in

1994
01:57:07,640 --> 01:57:11,000
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century did we have that period of Anglicization

1995
01:57:11,560 --> 01:57:14,880
Speaker 1: where English was you know, brought in Um. And to

1996
01:57:14,960 --> 01:57:16,520
Speaker 1: see that in that short space of time and that

1997
01:57:16,640 --> 01:57:19,320
Speaker 1: handful of centuries that you know, you're not already has

1998
01:57:19,360 --> 01:57:24,880
Speaker 1: its own unique English based creel, you always just fascinating

1999
01:57:24,960 --> 01:57:28,440
Speaker 1: to see. Um. There's something really interesting to me about

2000
01:57:28,480 --> 01:57:31,680
Speaker 1: the way this process plays out because it's it's it's

2001
01:57:31,680 --> 01:57:36,400
Speaker 1: almost like because you have this sort of like like

2002
01:57:36,680 --> 01:57:43,080
Speaker 1: you have this period in the Mesolithic, all the period

2003
01:57:43,160 --> 01:57:46,800
Speaker 1: names are blanking out I had, but like like you say, yeah,

2004
01:57:47,080 --> 01:57:49,320
Speaker 1: like you have this period where you have kind of

2005
01:57:50,160 --> 01:57:52,960
Speaker 1: like you have a lot of cultural standardization, like spread

2006
01:57:52,960 --> 01:57:55,720
Speaker 1: across a long period like a bunch of places, and

2007
01:57:55,840 --> 01:57:58,400
Speaker 1: it's used sort of as a mutual aid thing. It

2008
01:57:58,400 --> 01:58:00,440
Speaker 1: allows people to travel because you can go a place

2009
01:58:00,480 --> 01:58:03,520
Speaker 1: and know that like there will be people who are

2010
01:58:03,680 --> 01:58:05,440
Speaker 1: like you there and they will take care of you.

2011
01:58:06,080 --> 01:58:08,000
Speaker 1: And it's interesting to me. It's like, Okay, so this

2012
01:58:08,240 --> 01:58:11,680
Speaker 1: breaks apart as sort of like these these new cultures,

2013
01:58:11,880 --> 01:58:14,600
Speaker 1: like as people develop local cultures around like food and

2014
01:58:14,640 --> 01:58:18,480
Speaker 1: around just like Graver has this thing that he loves

2015
01:58:18,520 --> 01:58:21,760
Speaker 1: talking about. These were talking about for ages called scisolo genesis,

2016
01:58:22,440 --> 01:58:26,080
Speaker 1: which is like you have two people, you know, it's

2017
01:58:26,120 --> 01:58:27,880
Speaker 1: like I think I think they're his ositional examples. Like

2018
01:58:27,960 --> 01:58:29,560
Speaker 1: if you people who are arguing with each other and

2019
01:58:29,600 --> 01:58:32,000
Speaker 1: they like disagree minor ly over like one thing, and

2020
01:58:32,040 --> 01:58:34,640
Speaker 1: then by the end of the argument, like they're they've

2021
01:58:34,640 --> 01:58:37,520
Speaker 1: they've taken like completely mutually opposed identities to each other

2022
01:58:37,600 --> 01:58:40,840
Speaker 1: based on an incredibly minor disagreement, and you get this

2023
01:58:40,920 --> 01:58:42,520
Speaker 1: with yeah, like you get cultures to sort of like

2024
01:58:42,600 --> 01:58:44,680
Speaker 1: define themselves against each other and like they have things

2025
01:58:44,720 --> 01:58:46,720
Speaker 1: that they like and things that they don't like. It's

2026
01:58:46,760 --> 01:58:49,840
Speaker 1: interesting to me that that you see you see the

2027
01:58:50,040 --> 01:58:54,240
Speaker 1: state trying to sort of like reimpose that kind of

2028
01:58:54,320 --> 01:58:58,560
Speaker 1: like like forty year old cultural commogity on all of

2029
01:58:58,640 --> 01:59:01,760
Speaker 1: these places that are like incredibly not homogeneous but they're

2030
01:59:01,800 --> 01:59:03,680
Speaker 1: doing it for like the opposite reason. They're doing it

2031
01:59:03,760 --> 01:59:06,000
Speaker 1: because they need senatorization in order to sort of like

2032
01:59:06,680 --> 01:59:09,560
Speaker 1: make their make their bureaucratic like systems work better and

2033
01:59:09,640 --> 01:59:12,280
Speaker 1: make their sort of like seeing like a stage kind

2034
01:59:12,320 --> 01:59:15,000
Speaker 1: of thing. Yeah. Yeah, And also like, like I mean,

2035
01:59:15,160 --> 01:59:16,400
Speaker 1: this is a huge thing. Everyone in the in the

2036
01:59:16,520 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 1: like the early the late nineties and early two thousands

2037
01:59:18,480 --> 01:59:21,160
Speaker 1: thought that like the extent of capitalism on the around

2038
01:59:21,200 --> 01:59:23,680
Speaker 1: the globe was going to make everything exactly the same,

2039
01:59:23,800 --> 01:59:26,880
Speaker 1: there's only one culture, and that like kind of really

2040
01:59:26,960 --> 01:59:33,440
Speaker 1: didn't happen. But there was this real sort of I

2041
01:59:33,480 --> 01:59:35,320
Speaker 1: don't know, like that there was this real sort of

2042
01:59:36,040 --> 01:59:38,960
Speaker 1: fear that that it wasn't just gonna be the nation

2043
01:59:39,040 --> 01:59:41,680
Speaker 1: state spreading like homoganization, but like capitalism was going to

2044
01:59:41,720 --> 01:59:43,560
Speaker 1: sort of like spread imoganization. And I guess I guess

2045
01:59:43,600 --> 01:59:45,280
Speaker 1: the thing that they round up doing againstead was like

2046
01:59:45,800 --> 01:59:48,080
Speaker 1: figuring out that you could just sell everyone into their

2047
01:59:48,120 --> 01:59:52,360
Speaker 1: individual cultural niche, which to some extent, yeah, because like

2048
01:59:52,480 --> 01:59:56,040
Speaker 1: we see McDonald's in the US and the McDonald's in

2049
01:59:56,280 --> 02:00:00,200
Speaker 1: Bangladesh and McDonald's in Japan, and they sell all of

2050
02:00:00,240 --> 02:00:02,200
Speaker 1: the same McDonald's stuff, but they've also like sort of

2051
02:00:02,200 --> 02:00:06,120
Speaker 1: specified to the you know, specific country. Yeah, we have

2052
02:00:06,240 --> 02:00:08,120
Speaker 1: the worst version. The US is the worst version of it,

2053
02:00:08,160 --> 02:00:13,040
Speaker 1: by the the the like Taiwan has one that has

2054
02:00:13,080 --> 02:00:17,120
Speaker 1: like they have like rice sticky rice patties. It's it's

2055
02:00:17,160 --> 02:00:20,680
Speaker 1: so much better than Yeah, I mean, I will say

2056
02:00:20,720 --> 02:00:24,320
Speaker 1: that if I did end up traveling to Taiwan, McDonald

2057
02:00:24,400 --> 02:00:27,080
Speaker 1: is probably be the last place I would want to go. Yeah,

2058
02:00:27,120 --> 02:00:29,160
Speaker 1: I mean we wanted beating there and we we were

2059
02:00:29,200 --> 02:00:31,440
Speaker 1: we had to catch a plane, so we wound up

2060
02:00:31,480 --> 02:00:37,040
Speaker 1: eating like Taiwanese McDonald's airport food because we had like

2061
02:00:37,200 --> 02:00:40,920
Speaker 1: five minutes. It was a you know what they say,

2062
02:00:40,960 --> 02:00:47,400
Speaker 1: what airplane food? Um, but yeah, that's exactly us. Well,

2063
02:00:47,440 --> 02:00:50,120
Speaker 1: to get into actually the whole idea of cultural differentiation,

2064
02:00:50,760 --> 02:00:54,240
Speaker 1: you know, um, and this this tendency of humans have

2065
02:00:54,400 --> 02:00:57,600
Speaker 1: to subdivide and to distinguish themselves from the near buzz.

2066
02:00:58,400 --> 02:01:00,840
Speaker 1: And I mean it's not to assume that, you know,

2067
02:01:00,960 --> 02:01:05,680
Speaker 1: this differentiation comes from like differences and like language, you know,

2068
02:01:05,720 --> 02:01:08,120
Speaker 1: with you know, language splitting off over the centuries and

2069
02:01:08,560 --> 02:01:12,080
Speaker 1: people associating with their native language and ethnicity. But that

2070
02:01:12,200 --> 02:01:15,240
Speaker 1: really tell the full story, you know, Like for example,

2071
02:01:15,280 --> 02:01:20,040
Speaker 1: in northern California in the early century. The Ethno linguistic

2072
02:01:20,120 --> 02:01:23,680
Speaker 1: map had really a jumble of languages that drew from

2073
02:01:24,600 --> 02:01:27,480
Speaker 1: entirely different language families, you know, as distant from one another,

2074
02:01:27,680 --> 02:01:33,000
Speaker 1: as like Arabic and Tamil and Portuguese. And yet these

2075
02:01:33,040 --> 02:01:36,960
Speaker 1: groups still shared you know, broad similarities. You know, how

2076
02:01:37,000 --> 02:01:39,920
Speaker 1: they went about gathering and processing food, you know their

2077
02:01:39,960 --> 02:01:44,920
Speaker 1: most important religious rituals, how they organized their political life. Um.

2078
02:01:45,720 --> 02:01:48,920
Speaker 1: And they also managed to keep themselves distinct. You know,

2079
02:01:49,000 --> 02:01:51,600
Speaker 1: you have the Iroque and the Hoop and the Karak

2080
02:01:51,720 --> 02:01:54,600
Speaker 1: and so forth. And I mean, to some extent, these

2081
02:01:54,600 --> 02:02:00,920
Speaker 1: identities did map once linguistic differences, but their neighbors, we

2082
02:02:01,040 --> 02:02:05,760
Speaker 1: spoke different languages, still had more common with them than

2083
02:02:06,120 --> 02:02:09,200
Speaker 1: people who came from their same language family in another

2084
02:02:09,320 --> 02:02:13,160
Speaker 1: part of North America. Of course, you know, European colonization

2085
02:02:13,280 --> 02:02:16,360
Speaker 1: had like a severe impact on like how neat Americans

2086
02:02:16,400 --> 02:02:20,240
Speaker 1: were distributed. Um. But we still tend to see this

2087
02:02:20,320 --> 02:02:24,600
Speaker 1: trend of how like these modern nation states they went

2088
02:02:24,720 --> 02:02:27,520
Speaker 1: around at the time to you know, or the population.

2089
02:02:27,640 --> 02:02:31,680
Speaker 1: Since these neat Ethno linguistic groups, you know, this idea

2090
02:02:31,760 --> 02:02:34,600
Speaker 1: that the world should be divided into these like homogeneous

2091
02:02:34,720 --> 02:02:38,000
Speaker 1: units to their own history and everyone has a claim

2092
02:02:38,080 --> 02:02:40,520
Speaker 1: to like a certain territory and all that. It's I mean,

2093
02:02:40,640 --> 02:02:44,400
Speaker 1: it's really a concept that is born onto this mythology

2094
02:02:44,520 --> 02:02:47,320
Speaker 1: of the nation state. And you know, of course we

2095
02:02:47,360 --> 02:02:49,720
Speaker 1: have to be real careful before we project those kind

2096
02:02:49,720 --> 02:02:54,000
Speaker 1: of uniformities back in time. Yeah, it's definitely really like

2097
02:02:54,120 --> 02:02:58,879
Speaker 1: two years old, like it it's pretty young, yeah, exactly exactly.

2098
02:02:59,480 --> 02:03:02,840
Speaker 1: But um, there are some concerns, you know, with the

2099
02:03:02,960 --> 02:03:07,160
Speaker 1: concept of culture areas because that whole notion of culture

2100
02:03:07,160 --> 02:03:10,800
Speaker 1: areas came out of North American museums who wanted to

2101
02:03:11,120 --> 02:03:14,920
Speaker 1: arrange their stolen artifacts to illustrate their theories of the

2102
02:03:14,960 --> 02:03:17,960
Speaker 1: different stages of human adaptation, you know, like Colover's lower

2103
02:03:18,000 --> 02:03:21,760
Speaker 1: savagery and upper savagery and lower lower barbaris sum and

2104
02:03:21,880 --> 02:03:24,880
Speaker 1: so on. And so they hadd to in whether they

2105
02:03:24,880 --> 02:03:29,600
Speaker 1: were an organized these artifacts based on like language, family

2106
02:03:30,040 --> 02:03:35,640
Speaker 1: or regional clusters um or some sort of like traced

2107
02:03:35,800 --> 02:03:43,839
Speaker 1: history of of of regional of ancient migrations. Right. Eventually

2108
02:03:43,880 --> 02:03:46,200
Speaker 1: they realized that you know, this way of organizing into

2109
02:03:46,240 --> 02:03:51,320
Speaker 1: regional clusters seemed to work best the art and technology

2110
02:03:51,400 --> 02:03:55,800
Speaker 1: of different Eastern Woodlands tribes had some very similar um

2111
02:03:56,200 --> 02:03:59,720
Speaker 1: things in common compared to like trying to group people

2112
02:03:59,800 --> 02:04:03,720
Speaker 1: be sturn like say the Athabascan language or all the

2113
02:04:03,720 --> 02:04:06,640
Speaker 1: people who relied on fishing or all people cultivate to

2114
02:04:06,680 --> 02:04:11,960
Speaker 1: me is um. And they were able to find similar

2115
02:04:12,000 --> 02:04:16,200
Speaker 1: patterns in the Neolithic villages of Central Europe, you know,

2116
02:04:16,280 --> 02:04:20,400
Speaker 1: finding these regional clusters of domestic life and art and

2117
02:04:20,720 --> 02:04:24,760
Speaker 1: ritual and so like. This whole cultural area concept was

2118
02:04:24,800 --> 02:04:27,560
Speaker 1: kind of a way of pushing back against this way

2119
02:04:27,600 --> 02:04:31,760
Speaker 1: of you know, talking about humanistry that like ranked populations

2120
02:04:31,840 --> 02:04:36,360
Speaker 1: into higher or lower anything. You know, this this idea

2121
02:04:36,440 --> 02:04:39,600
Speaker 1: of of claiming that you know, people were of a

2122
02:04:39,680 --> 02:04:44,600
Speaker 1: certain superior genetic stock and viciouslynd fance level of technological

2123
02:04:44,680 --> 02:04:49,000
Speaker 1: evolution and so rather this there's been there was a

2124
02:04:49,040 --> 02:04:52,720
Speaker 1: shift in anthropological focus to look at the diffusion of

2125
02:04:52,840 --> 02:04:58,560
Speaker 1: more cultural treats like ceramics and sweat lodges and you know,

2126
02:04:58,960 --> 02:05:04,920
Speaker 1: the treatment of young men or certain sports um as.

2127
02:05:05,040 --> 02:05:08,320
Speaker 1: They wanted to try to understand how these different tribes

2128
02:05:08,360 --> 02:05:12,240
Speaker 1: of certain region came to share this mesh of culture traits.

2129
02:05:13,120 --> 02:05:15,640
Speaker 1: So one of the people who were thinking on this,

2130
02:05:15,920 --> 02:05:20,480
Speaker 1: you know, whole culture traits cluster idea. Um, it was

2131
02:05:20,560 --> 02:05:24,520
Speaker 1: guy named bous right, and he wanted to figure out

2132
02:05:25,440 --> 02:05:29,120
Speaker 1: why is that, like geography seemed to define the circulation

2133
02:05:29,160 --> 02:05:31,720
Speaker 1: of ideas, you know, with like mountains and dests form

2134
02:05:31,760 --> 02:05:37,360
Speaker 1: these natural barriers, and how basically the diffusion within those

2135
02:05:37,440 --> 02:05:44,040
Speaker 1: regions was basically historical accident, a legal hypothesizing that there

2136
02:05:44,160 --> 02:05:47,600
Speaker 1: was some sort of like way to eventually develop a

2137
02:05:47,640 --> 02:05:52,120
Speaker 1: kind of a natural science, developing how and even predicting

2138
02:05:52,600 --> 02:05:57,320
Speaker 1: the ebb and floor styles, habits and social forms. And

2139
02:05:57,400 --> 02:06:01,360
Speaker 1: eventually muscle Mouse pulls up, you know, and he's basically

2140
02:06:01,440 --> 02:06:06,240
Speaker 1: taught obviously, like right, bunch of essays on nationalism and civilization,

2141
02:06:06,400 --> 02:06:09,080
Speaker 1: and he says it's basically, this whole idea of cultural

2142
02:06:09,080 --> 02:06:13,640
Speaker 1: the fusion is nonsense because it's based on a false assumption.

2143
02:06:14,240 --> 02:06:18,360
Speaker 1: And the false assumption is that the movement of people, technologies,

2144
02:06:18,360 --> 02:06:22,600
Speaker 1: and ideas is some sort of rarity, something unusual. Instead,

2145
02:06:22,640 --> 02:06:26,200
Speaker 1: Mouse argues that like people in past times traveled even

2146
02:06:26,320 --> 02:06:31,240
Speaker 1: more than people do today, and it's just that when

2147
02:06:31,280 --> 02:06:34,720
Speaker 1: these people interact with people of other cultures and they

2148
02:06:34,800 --> 02:06:40,600
Speaker 1: see their cultural traits, they reflect on that and find

2149
02:06:40,640 --> 02:06:44,840
Speaker 1: a way to relate that to their own cultures, right,

2150
02:06:44,880 --> 02:06:46,920
Speaker 1: so that people who are traveling back then, obviously all

2151
02:06:47,000 --> 02:06:51,520
Speaker 1: of them, you know, we're aware of basketry, you know,

2152
02:06:52,920 --> 02:06:55,880
Speaker 1: or or or feather works or whatever the case may

2153
02:06:55,920 --> 02:06:58,720
Speaker 1: be that other people were use in a couple of

2154
02:06:58,800 --> 02:07:04,040
Speaker 1: miles away, seemed to be said for like certain drum rhythms,

2155
02:07:04,240 --> 02:07:10,760
Speaker 1: or certain you know, games, or like For example, he

2156
02:07:10,840 --> 02:07:15,840
Speaker 1: spent some time focusing on the distribution of the ball

2157
02:07:15,960 --> 02:07:20,400
Speaker 1: games around the Pacific Ocean, around the Pacific Rim from

2158
02:07:20,480 --> 02:07:26,160
Speaker 1: Japan's New Zealand to California, and what he realized is

2159
02:07:26,240 --> 02:07:31,400
Speaker 1: that while people pick up certain ideas cittain traits from

2160
02:07:31,440 --> 02:07:35,600
Speaker 1: other cultures comes down to how they'd want to be

2161
02:07:35,720 --> 02:07:41,120
Speaker 1: defined against their neighbors, against their closest neighbors. The question

2162
02:07:41,200 --> 02:07:45,720
Speaker 1: becomes less about why certain culture traits spread, but why

2163
02:07:46,120 --> 02:07:48,960
Speaker 1: other culture traits didn't. Because if you were aware of

2164
02:07:49,040 --> 02:07:50,800
Speaker 1: all the things that your neighbors and stuff are doing,

2165
02:07:50,840 --> 02:07:54,080
Speaker 1: all these foreign customs and arts and technologies. I mean,

2166
02:07:54,160 --> 02:07:56,000
Speaker 1: we know that the Silk Road, for example, when we

2167
02:07:56,040 --> 02:07:58,600
Speaker 1: talk about the Silk Road, you know we had a

2168
02:07:58,680 --> 02:08:01,160
Speaker 1: silk road going from China all the way into Europe

2169
02:08:01,680 --> 02:08:04,440
Speaker 1: and all across the Silk roop all across Central Asia

2170
02:08:04,920 --> 02:08:09,880
Speaker 1: and West Asia. And despite that constant you know, sharing

2171
02:08:09,920 --> 02:08:13,480
Speaker 1: of ideas, not every idea that you know came from

2172
02:08:13,800 --> 02:08:18,640
Speaker 1: China or came from Pussia or I don't know if

2173
02:08:18,640 --> 02:08:20,880
Speaker 1: Pusia was arounding the Silk Crew. But you know what

2174
02:08:20,920 --> 02:08:23,520
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like, not every idea that was along the

2175
02:08:23,600 --> 02:08:26,440
Speaker 1: Silk Crew everyone necessarily picked up on, even if it

2176
02:08:26,560 --> 02:08:31,200
Speaker 1: was a technology that might have benefited them, because cultures

2177
02:08:32,600 --> 02:08:39,200
Speaker 1: effectively structures of refusal. So for example, um, there's this

2178
02:08:39,440 --> 02:08:42,840
Speaker 1: guy on YouTube Religion for Breakfast. He did a video

2179
02:08:42,880 --> 02:08:48,680
Speaker 1: recently on the pork taboo in certain cultures and certain religions, right,

2180
02:08:49,760 --> 02:08:51,880
Speaker 1: and one of the things he pointed out was that

2181
02:08:52,400 --> 02:08:56,800
Speaker 1: the taboo tends to be strengthened in times of like

2182
02:08:57,320 --> 02:09:06,640
Speaker 1: repression so for example, or in times of cultural um definition.

2183
02:09:07,680 --> 02:09:10,240
Speaker 1: So for example, he is pointing out that in the

2184
02:09:10,520 --> 02:09:15,600
Speaker 1: period of Roman conquest, the Jewish people were more inclined

2185
02:09:15,640 --> 02:09:19,960
Speaker 1: to define themselves as you know, against the consumption of pork,

2186
02:09:20,120 --> 02:09:24,440
Speaker 1: compared to the Romans. You know, for example, the Chinese

2187
02:09:24,480 --> 02:09:26,560
Speaker 1: are the people who use chopsticks, you know, they don't

2188
02:09:26,600 --> 02:09:29,160
Speaker 1: use knives and forks, So you're the tie the people

2189
02:09:29,160 --> 02:09:33,280
Speaker 1: who use spoons and so on. You know, it could

2190
02:09:33,360 --> 02:09:35,680
Speaker 1: just be said said that, you know, it's like aesthetics,

2191
02:09:37,000 --> 02:09:39,320
Speaker 1: like styles of art or music or tim man and

2192
02:09:39,360 --> 02:09:41,760
Speaker 1: is of course those things won't differ. But even like

2193
02:09:41,840 --> 02:09:46,440
Speaker 1: technologies that have like an adaptive or utilitarian benefits might

2194
02:09:46,480 --> 02:09:49,120
Speaker 1: still be risk, might still be refused by people who

2195
02:09:49,240 --> 02:09:54,360
Speaker 1: might even benefit from them. For example, the Athabaskans in

2196
02:09:54,560 --> 02:09:59,240
Speaker 1: Alaska refused to use Inuit kayaks despite the fact that

2197
02:09:59,320 --> 02:10:02,000
Speaker 1: there are a lot better to suited for the environment

2198
02:10:02,040 --> 02:10:05,520
Speaker 1: and their own boots, and the Inuit, for example, don't

2199
02:10:05,640 --> 02:10:10,440
Speaker 1: use Athabaskan snow shoes um at least in the time

2200
02:10:10,520 --> 02:10:15,560
Speaker 1: that Master Mouse is writing. And then, of course this

2201
02:10:15,680 --> 02:10:19,560
Speaker 1: is a self conscious process, you know, this is a

2202
02:10:19,640 --> 02:10:23,960
Speaker 1: process where a debate and discussion of all these different

2203
02:10:24,800 --> 02:10:28,040
Speaker 1: customs would have been occurring. You know, for example, in

2204
02:10:28,120 --> 02:10:31,520
Speaker 1: the Chinese courts when different foreign styles and customs would

2205
02:10:31,560 --> 02:10:34,760
Speaker 1: you come into the lands, there will be debates and

2206
02:10:34,960 --> 02:10:37,760
Speaker 1: arguments put forward by you know, the kings and the

2207
02:10:37,840 --> 02:10:42,600
Speaker 1: advisors and their vassals, you know, discussing, you know, whether

2208
02:10:42,640 --> 02:10:48,040
Speaker 1: they would ride the horses or drive chariots, or adopt

2209
02:10:48,160 --> 02:10:54,400
Speaker 1: like the man chew dress codes and customs, and so

2210
02:10:55,120 --> 02:11:00,200
Speaker 1: society's mouth said lived by borrowing from each other. They

2211
02:11:00,240 --> 02:11:05,320
Speaker 1: define themselves by the refusal of borring than by its acceptance.

2212
02:11:06,760 --> 02:11:10,600
Speaker 1: The question of how culture areas form and how culture

2213
02:11:10,600 --> 02:11:19,120
Speaker 1: has split off is definitely a political one. The decision

2214
02:11:19,240 --> 02:11:25,080
Speaker 1: to adopt a certain form of agriculture, or to cultivate

2215
02:11:25,240 --> 02:11:30,800
Speaker 1: a certain crop more specifically, or to adopt a certain

2216
02:11:30,880 --> 02:11:34,000
Speaker 1: style of dress. It's not just like a matter of

2217
02:11:34,120 --> 02:11:41,360
Speaker 1: like mere utility of maya or caloric advantage or material efficiency,

2218
02:11:42,680 --> 02:11:47,879
Speaker 1: or it's also a reflection and questioning of the values

2219
02:11:49,320 --> 02:11:53,800
Speaker 1: that that group of people holds or purport to hold,

2220
02:11:54,240 --> 02:12:00,760
Speaker 1: who they consider themselves to be. And I to think

2221
02:12:00,800 --> 02:12:03,400
Speaker 1: about the development of cultures, you know, I'd like to

2222
02:12:03,480 --> 02:12:11,879
Speaker 1: think about how our ancestors are, distant ancestors even consider themselves.

2223
02:12:11,960 --> 02:12:13,760
Speaker 1: You know, it's easy to just fall into this trap

2224
02:12:14,200 --> 02:12:17,280
Speaker 1: because it's a very common cultural troop that you know,

2225
02:12:18,400 --> 02:12:20,800
Speaker 1: once you go before the invention of writing or whatever,

2226
02:12:21,000 --> 02:12:24,560
Speaker 1: all of all ancestors are just like boga boogle cave

2227
02:12:24,640 --> 02:12:27,400
Speaker 1: men kind of thing. But to think of them as

2228
02:12:27,840 --> 02:12:40,240
Speaker 1: self conscious and politically um conscious, politically considerate, thoughtful actors,

2229
02:12:41,600 --> 02:12:49,400
Speaker 1: not you know, static or passive props um. It's just

2230
02:12:49,680 --> 02:12:51,920
Speaker 1: I think it's it's I think it's just very cool.

2231
02:12:52,880 --> 02:12:55,440
Speaker 1: I think it's very cool, and I think we should

2232
02:12:55,520 --> 02:13:01,920
Speaker 1: keep you know, these developments, these this recognition in mind

2233
02:13:02,040 --> 02:13:04,800
Speaker 1: as we you know, in the modern time look to

2234
02:13:04,960 --> 02:13:09,400
Speaker 1: try to transform the cultures we live under and to

2235
02:13:09,520 --> 02:13:15,280
Speaker 1: try to develop new values, new values of like anti

2236
02:13:15,320 --> 02:13:21,760
Speaker 1: authorityanism and anti capitalism and of you know, agree to

2237
02:13:21,880 --> 02:13:29,000
Speaker 1: priority on mutual aid and on egalitarian and social relations. Yeah.

2238
02:13:29,040 --> 02:13:32,480
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of very interesting political consequences

2239
02:13:33,360 --> 02:13:37,840
Speaker 1: of of thinking about this, because like, I think that

2240
02:13:37,960 --> 02:13:41,360
Speaker 1: there's there's sort of like two tendencies that that we

2241
02:13:41,480 --> 02:13:44,680
Speaker 1: sort of get stuck in when we think about like

2242
02:13:45,280 --> 02:13:48,120
Speaker 1: our social structures, which is there's there's there's one which

2243
02:13:48,160 --> 02:13:51,080
Speaker 1: is the sort of like I guess it's called capitalist realism,

2244
02:13:51,120 --> 02:13:54,000
Speaker 1: which is the assumption that like nothing else could possibly like,

2245
02:13:54,080 --> 02:13:55,760
Speaker 1: this is the only system that works, nothing else can

2246
02:13:55,840 --> 02:14:01,520
Speaker 1: possibly exist, and that's unproductive. You know, you go back

2247
02:14:01,600 --> 02:14:04,120
Speaker 1: and you look at like any other culture society, and

2248
02:14:04,120 --> 02:14:09,160
Speaker 1: it's like, well, no, like there's unbelievably nearly infinite number

2249
02:14:09,200 --> 02:14:11,520
Speaker 1: of ways you can organize your society. But then I

2250
02:14:11,600 --> 02:14:14,680
Speaker 1: think I think the second one is that, like, yeah,

2251
02:14:15,120 --> 02:14:18,600
Speaker 1: if you look at this sort of cultural diffusion and

2252
02:14:18,640 --> 02:14:23,200
Speaker 1: cultural refusal stuff, you see a lot of examples of

2253
02:14:23,280 --> 02:14:27,839
Speaker 1: people doing stuff that like under sort of like classical

2254
02:14:27,920 --> 02:14:30,320
Speaker 1: economic or like sociological laws, they shouldn't be doing, right, Like,

2255
02:14:30,360 --> 02:14:32,600
Speaker 1: there there's no reason why you shouldn't using more efficient

2256
02:14:32,640 --> 02:14:34,480
Speaker 1: canoe if you're in a place of the part of

2257
02:14:34,480 --> 02:14:37,760
Speaker 1: the world that's like extremely hard to surviving, right. And

2258
02:14:38,120 --> 02:14:39,840
Speaker 1: I think that there's this tendency to sort of like

2259
02:14:41,200 --> 02:14:44,240
Speaker 1: reduced culture and reduced just all of the ways that

2260
02:14:44,280 --> 02:14:46,640
Speaker 1: our social and political systems function to these sort of

2261
02:14:46,760 --> 02:14:48,960
Speaker 1: like oh, the the product of these like abstract historical

2262
02:14:49,080 --> 02:14:52,600
Speaker 1: forces and like it's all like tech, it's all determined

2263
02:14:52,640 --> 02:14:55,440
Speaker 1: by technology, and like how you farm and stuff like

2264
02:14:55,600 --> 02:14:58,800
Speaker 1: that's just not true. Yeah, I mean not the material

2265
02:14:58,920 --> 02:15:05,080
Speaker 1: conditions on you know, very important and understanding um, you know,

2266
02:15:05,240 --> 02:15:10,120
Speaker 1: how these cultures develop, and that's one part of um

2267
02:15:10,320 --> 02:15:12,760
Speaker 1: don't Everything that I found was a bit lacking. I

2268
02:15:12,840 --> 02:15:17,040
Speaker 1: think that not all the time those thoughts were clearly connected. Oh,

2269
02:15:17,160 --> 02:15:20,600
Speaker 1: I'd see, But I do think people put too much

2270
02:15:20,680 --> 02:15:27,200
Speaker 1: stock in solely material materialist um explanations and that kind

2271
02:15:27,240 --> 02:15:32,640
Speaker 1: of ends up precluding or leaving out the more messy

2272
02:15:33,000 --> 02:15:36,480
Speaker 1: human round of explanation. Yeah, And I think I think

2273
02:15:36,560 --> 02:15:38,640
Speaker 1: part of why this happens is that, like it's much

2274
02:15:38,720 --> 02:15:42,200
Speaker 1: if you assume everyone he's like behaving a quality to

2275
02:15:42,320 --> 02:15:44,040
Speaker 1: historical forces or like the thing that they're trying to

2276
02:15:44,120 --> 02:15:47,880
Speaker 1: do is like maximize, um, they're trying to maximize their

2277
02:15:47,960 --> 02:15:49,800
Speaker 1: utility and they're trying to like maximize the amount of

2278
02:15:49,800 --> 02:15:51,720
Speaker 1: calories they have. It that that's a very easy thing

2279
02:15:51,880 --> 02:15:55,280
Speaker 1: to like you like think about numerically, right, Like it's

2280
02:15:55,280 --> 02:15:57,120
Speaker 1: a very easy thing to refuse the numbers. It's extremely

2281
02:15:57,120 --> 02:16:00,720
Speaker 1: difficult to refuse the numbers, like to do to reduce

2282
02:16:01,320 --> 02:16:03,520
Speaker 1: two numbers. A society that is like I'm going to

2283
02:16:03,600 --> 02:16:06,480
Speaker 1: I'm going to intentionally make my life harder for myself

2284
02:16:07,160 --> 02:16:08,840
Speaker 1: because this is the way we do things, and we've

2285
02:16:08,880 --> 02:16:10,800
Speaker 1: decided we don't want to do things like other people.

2286
02:16:10,920 --> 02:16:12,880
Speaker 1: We've decided that we have some kind of political value

2287
02:16:12,920 --> 02:16:16,080
Speaker 1: that we have that makes it such that we're going

2288
02:16:16,200 --> 02:16:19,240
Speaker 1: to like induce difficulty into our lives and like that,

2289
02:16:21,920 --> 02:16:25,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, like that that kind of stuff. The

2290
02:16:26,680 --> 02:16:30,160
Speaker 1: the fact that culture is not just a sort of

2291
02:16:30,280 --> 02:16:33,440
Speaker 1: like superstructure that gets that's like a product of like

2292
02:16:33,520 --> 02:16:38,000
Speaker 1: some kind of economic base like that that is very

2293
02:16:38,160 --> 02:16:44,600
Speaker 1: important and something that gets ignored or downplayed constantly that

2294
02:16:44,720 --> 02:16:46,800
Speaker 1: I think I don't like. I think like, yeah, I

2295
02:16:46,840 --> 02:16:49,080
Speaker 1: think I think you can argue that everything like maybe

2296
02:16:49,120 --> 02:16:52,800
Speaker 1: goes too far in the other direction. But I'm I'm

2297
02:16:52,800 --> 02:16:54,440
Speaker 1: sort of okay with that, just because we've been so

2298
02:16:54,640 --> 02:16:58,440
Speaker 1: far on the side of like everything is historical forces

2299
02:16:58,480 --> 02:17:02,360
Speaker 1: for so long that you need something to remind people that, like,

2300
02:17:02,760 --> 02:17:06,440
Speaker 1: societies make conscious political choices, and not only have they

2301
02:17:06,480 --> 02:17:09,520
Speaker 1: made conscious political choices for like times of thousands of years,

2302
02:17:10,200 --> 02:17:14,160
Speaker 1: I like, we also can make conscious political choices that

2303
02:17:14,280 --> 02:17:16,680
Speaker 1: are not just sort of like pure reflections of like

2304
02:17:17,800 --> 02:17:20,360
Speaker 1: however many tons of iron have been extracted, and like

2305
02:17:20,480 --> 02:17:24,279
Speaker 1: what percentage of like workers are currently working in hospitals

2306
02:17:24,480 --> 02:17:30,280
Speaker 1: versus like making cookies or something. Right, Thank you for

2307
02:17:30,360 --> 02:17:37,080
Speaker 1: that ooh analysis, Chris, I agree that that's a joke,

2308
02:17:37,200 --> 02:17:40,080
Speaker 1: Like twelve people will get I I love you if

2309
02:17:40,160 --> 02:17:50,280
Speaker 1: you if you understand that joke. Also, I'm sorry, yes,

2310
02:17:50,360 --> 02:17:53,720
Speaker 1: so you can wrap it up. Carson Um. All of

2311
02:17:53,760 --> 02:17:56,400
Speaker 1: this has been very fascinating. What what I've learned the

2312
02:17:56,520 --> 02:17:59,440
Speaker 1: most is that I need to finished reading all my

2313
02:17:59,480 --> 02:18:02,800
Speaker 1: books as that I can read the Dawn and everything. Um,

2314
02:18:03,320 --> 02:18:04,920
Speaker 1: I know I like, I like got it from my

2315
02:18:05,080 --> 02:18:08,880
Speaker 1: dad for Christmas because um, because I knew that it

2316
02:18:08,920 --> 02:18:10,560
Speaker 1: would be uh at least I think I did. My

2317
02:18:10,640 --> 02:18:12,800
Speaker 1: memory could be I could actually be wrong. I could

2318
02:18:12,840 --> 02:18:15,760
Speaker 1: have only intended to get my dad for Christmas and

2319
02:18:16,040 --> 02:18:18,720
Speaker 1: forgotten to actually get it. But I've been reading it

2320
02:18:18,840 --> 02:18:21,080
Speaker 1: to I've been meeting to both buy it for myself

2321
02:18:21,480 --> 02:18:24,120
Speaker 1: and get it for other people because I've heard a

2322
02:18:24,200 --> 02:18:26,800
Speaker 1: lot of interesting things about the book. So it is

2323
02:18:26,800 --> 02:18:31,600
Speaker 1: definitely on my list. It's been a pleasure listening to. Uh,

2324
02:18:31,800 --> 02:18:36,480
Speaker 1: you'll discuss it, um Andrew. Where can if people want

2325
02:18:36,520 --> 02:18:40,360
Speaker 1: to check out more of your your work? Where could

2326
02:18:40,440 --> 02:18:44,880
Speaker 1: where could they go about that? Right? So you can

2327
02:18:44,920 --> 02:18:47,760
Speaker 1: still find me on Twitter and underscore see and Drew

2328
02:18:47,879 --> 02:18:51,560
Speaker 1: when I'm not um hiding, And you could also find

2329
02:18:51,600 --> 02:18:56,720
Speaker 1: me on YouTube andreism YouTube dot com, slash andreism, where

2330
02:18:56,840 --> 02:19:01,840
Speaker 1: I post radios about also stuff, random stuff. You know

2331
02:19:01,920 --> 02:19:06,520
Speaker 1: that I'm thinking about politics, history, Well that jazz. A

2332
02:19:06,600 --> 02:19:10,120
Speaker 1: few days ago, as the time of recording, um Andrew

2333
02:19:10,200 --> 02:19:13,760
Speaker 1: put out a wonderful video on a solar punk stuff. Um,

2334
02:19:14,160 --> 02:19:15,600
Speaker 1: I have no idea what this episode will air, so

2335
02:19:15,680 --> 02:19:17,840
Speaker 1: that it's probably been like a month or two or something.

2336
02:19:19,160 --> 02:19:22,640
Speaker 1: But definitely check out the Andrewism channel. It's one of

2337
02:19:22,720 --> 02:19:26,840
Speaker 1: my favorite spots too. Uh watch something. When I feel

2338
02:19:26,879 --> 02:19:28,840
Speaker 1: like I can't put any words on the page, I

2339
02:19:28,920 --> 02:19:32,640
Speaker 1: go watch your things because it's very helpful. Um. Yeah,

2340
02:19:33,000 --> 02:19:35,840
Speaker 1: so that doesn't for us Today. You can find us

2341
02:19:35,920 --> 02:19:38,360
Speaker 1: that Twitter and on Twitter and Instagram at happened here

2342
02:19:38,400 --> 02:19:41,400
Speaker 1: pod coos out Media. You can find me posting about

2343
02:19:41,480 --> 02:19:44,800
Speaker 1: hyper objects and liminal spaces at Hungry bow Tie And

2344
02:19:45,160 --> 02:19:48,560
Speaker 1: I heard that you have a Twitter, Chris. Yeah, it's

2345
02:19:48,680 --> 02:19:54,560
Speaker 1: at mc h R three. You can find me mostly

2346
02:19:55,000 --> 02:20:00,800
Speaker 1: complaining about other people who are doing mean isn't wrong?

2347
02:20:01,080 --> 02:20:03,320
Speaker 1: I guess that's most of what I post about. Love

2348
02:20:03,400 --> 02:20:06,880
Speaker 1: that for you, you two will be able to differentiate

2349
02:20:06,920 --> 02:20:09,560
Speaker 1: between the sixteen different For exceit, it's not even there.

2350
02:20:09,640 --> 02:20:13,240
Speaker 1: Used to be long ago into galaxy, far far away,

2351
02:20:13,240 --> 02:20:15,200
Speaker 1: and made a decision, and that was that I was

2352
02:20:15,200 --> 02:20:17,440
Speaker 1: going to sacrifice my brain to understand the different kinds

2353
02:20:17,440 --> 02:20:19,320
Speaker 1: of maoism. And if you two want to understand why

2354
02:20:19,400 --> 02:20:23,640
Speaker 1: it still exists in all twenty varieties of them, yeah,

2355
02:20:23,800 --> 02:20:25,920
Speaker 1: go there. If you don't want to do that. Do not,

2356
02:20:26,480 --> 02:20:31,680
Speaker 1: You'll be happier. Well, what a ringing endorsement. Uh? Good bye?

2357
02:20:31,720 --> 02:20:34,600
Speaker 1: Everyone go I don't know, should we should? Should we

2358
02:20:34,600 --> 02:20:38,400
Speaker 1: plug up people at the other shows? Yeah? I guess

2359
02:20:39,160 --> 02:20:41,080
Speaker 1: everyone's tune dead at this point. I hope they've all

2360
02:20:41,120 --> 02:20:48,400
Speaker 1: stopped at the podcast player. I think I think, Uh, yes,

2361
02:20:48,600 --> 02:20:51,840
Speaker 1: go outside and be free there, I can you can

2362
02:20:51,959 --> 02:20:55,880
Speaker 1: you can edit that into something that is more concise. Sorry,

2363
02:20:55,959 --> 02:21:15,880
Speaker 1: Daniel Slash, I don't care. Yeah, it's well, it is

2364
02:21:15,920 --> 02:21:18,520
Speaker 1: the podcast. It could happen here, but for once, it

2365
02:21:18,680 --> 02:21:21,200
Speaker 1: is not about the world falling apart. It is entirely

2366
02:21:21,240 --> 02:21:24,600
Speaker 1: about putting it back together again. Uh. And and joining

2367
02:21:24,640 --> 02:21:27,920
Speaker 1: me to talk about putting it back together again is

2368
02:21:28,320 --> 02:21:30,600
Speaker 1: zero of the other people who are normally on this podcast.

2369
02:21:30,760 --> 02:21:35,000
Speaker 1: But I'm joined by Shannon and John Horonomus, who are

2370
02:21:35,040 --> 02:21:36,720
Speaker 1: part of the team of Organized Is working on the

2371
02:21:36,800 --> 02:21:40,640
Speaker 1: Dual Power Gathering. Shannon, John, Welcome, Welcome to the show. Hi,

2372
02:21:41,320 --> 02:21:45,480
Speaker 1: thank you, hey. So, I guess the first part of

2373
02:21:45,560 --> 02:21:48,760
Speaker 1: the Dual Power Gathering is dual power, and I think

2374
02:21:48,840 --> 02:21:52,040
Speaker 1: we should walk through what actually that is, in what

2375
02:21:52,240 --> 02:21:54,959
Speaker 1: our sort of visions for it look like, because Man,

2376
02:21:55,000 --> 02:21:57,480
Speaker 1: I know we've talked about this on the show before,

2377
02:21:57,600 --> 02:22:00,280
Speaker 1: but that was a very very long time ago, but

2378
02:22:00,360 --> 02:22:03,920
Speaker 1: which I mean like probably only like seven months, but

2379
02:22:04,600 --> 02:22:09,360
Speaker 1: you know, it feels like ancient history. So yeah, I

2380
02:22:09,440 --> 02:22:11,680
Speaker 1: guess do you two want to talk about what dual

2381
02:22:11,720 --> 02:22:18,800
Speaker 1: power is and how how do you do? Yeah? Sure,

2382
02:22:18,959 --> 02:22:20,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop trying to think about what happened seven

2383
02:22:20,959 --> 02:22:24,960
Speaker 1: months ago and trying to Okay, you said that. I

2384
02:22:25,040 --> 02:22:27,720
Speaker 1: was just like, oh wow, Okay, no, never mind. Um So,

2385
02:22:28,160 --> 02:22:32,120
Speaker 1: dual power, John, how about I go ahead and share

2386
02:22:32,200 --> 02:22:36,800
Speaker 1: with our audience what is sort of the poetic language

2387
02:22:36,879 --> 02:22:40,240
Speaker 1: that we have up on the website from the the organizers,

2388
02:22:40,320 --> 02:22:42,520
Speaker 1: and then we can kind of like break it down

2389
02:22:42,560 --> 02:22:46,120
Speaker 1: and talk about it. Um yeah, that works for me,

2390
02:22:46,800 --> 02:22:52,240
Speaker 1: all right. So of the website texts such dual power

2391
02:22:52,360 --> 02:22:54,520
Speaker 1: is a way to imagine the moment just before our

2392
02:22:54,600 --> 02:22:58,520
Speaker 1: movements converge, as the possible becomes the actual, when the

2393
02:22:58,600 --> 02:23:02,200
Speaker 1: seeds of social transfer nation we have sown for generations bloom,

2394
02:23:02,680 --> 02:23:05,520
Speaker 1: when the old world begins to wither and new worlds

2395
02:23:05,600 --> 02:23:08,160
Speaker 1: can be born. Is a way of thinking about how

2396
02:23:08,240 --> 02:23:11,039
Speaker 1: we got to that moment and beyond it. Dual power

2397
02:23:11,120 --> 02:23:15,120
Speaker 1: is the project of building self determination, mutual aid, solidarity,

2398
02:23:15,240 --> 02:23:18,720
Speaker 1: and direct democracy in our communities by creating spaces that

2399
02:23:18,800 --> 02:23:22,519
Speaker 1: empower us all and from which new and mansipatory institutions

2400
02:23:22,640 --> 02:23:29,280
Speaker 1: can emerge. It's a pretty So what does that mean?

2401
02:23:30,400 --> 02:23:32,680
Speaker 1: So what does that mean? UM? First off, I want

2402
02:23:32,720 --> 02:23:35,680
Speaker 1: to say like a shout out to a lot of

2403
02:23:35,760 --> 02:23:40,960
Speaker 1: people have been working on this vision of what dual

2404
02:23:41,000 --> 02:23:46,240
Speaker 1: power is for years and years now, and that includes UH,

2405
02:23:46,600 --> 02:23:51,040
Speaker 1: A lot of groups UM that we are either in

2406
02:23:51,200 --> 02:23:55,840
Speaker 1: conversation with or have been taking inspiration from. UM. One

2407
02:23:55,920 --> 02:24:00,280
Speaker 1: of the biggest, I think most developed groups that's doing

2408
02:24:00,560 --> 02:24:05,039
Speaker 1: that work is Cooperation Jackson and Jackson Jacks Mississippi, UM

2409
02:24:06,480 --> 02:24:11,600
Speaker 1: and UH. I think the goal is people went up.

2410
02:24:11,920 --> 02:24:15,120
Speaker 1: Oftentimes when people do like here dual power, if they

2411
02:24:15,160 --> 02:24:18,720
Speaker 1: don't have any other UM context for it, but they

2412
02:24:18,760 --> 02:24:21,760
Speaker 1: are maybe from the left. They've heard about this moment

2413
02:24:22,080 --> 02:24:26,400
Speaker 1: in the Russian Revolution when there were these two competing

2414
02:24:27,640 --> 02:24:31,959
Speaker 1: like uh, you know, basis of power in like Russian

2415
02:24:32,080 --> 02:24:37,279
Speaker 1: society while they're undergoing this revolutionary change, and uh Lenin

2416
02:24:37,480 --> 02:24:40,600
Speaker 1: wrote like a pamphlet about it, calling it the dual

2417
02:24:40,640 --> 02:24:42,240
Speaker 1: power and looked at it as like a thing that

2418
02:24:42,400 --> 02:24:47,200
Speaker 1: needed to be like overcome by you know, workers in

2419
02:24:47,360 --> 02:24:54,160
Speaker 1: Russia UM, to like establish a workers state UM, which

2420
02:24:54,200 --> 02:24:56,680
Speaker 1: they kind of outlined in a book called State and Revolution.

2421
02:24:57,280 --> 02:25:01,160
Speaker 1: And but when we look at like they were describing,

2422
02:25:01,480 --> 02:25:03,960
Speaker 1: we kind of look at this as I think that

2423
02:25:04,080 --> 02:25:08,600
Speaker 1: emerges in any time when there's a social revolution and

2424
02:25:08,760 --> 02:25:12,359
Speaker 1: kind of unfolding in a society where you have various

2425
02:25:12,520 --> 02:25:20,520
Speaker 1: classes who are like changing like social relations, workers, peasants, UM,

2426
02:25:21,000 --> 02:25:24,000
Speaker 1: different groups of people who like have like a class

2427
02:25:24,120 --> 02:25:27,680
Speaker 1: they have come together around a class interest and overthrowing

2428
02:25:27,720 --> 02:25:31,920
Speaker 1: their oppression, and they have to go through stages of

2429
02:25:33,520 --> 02:25:39,119
Speaker 1: building their collective power their collective identity there, and they're

2430
02:25:39,959 --> 02:25:45,080
Speaker 1: kind of like overall strategic movement in a particular direction UM,

2431
02:25:46,080 --> 02:25:50,800
Speaker 1: and they create this tension between the existing state order

2432
02:25:51,360 --> 02:25:56,240
Speaker 1: and a newly emerging like uh, like social revolution that's

2433
02:25:56,280 --> 02:26:01,240
Speaker 1: like overthrown, challenging uh and overthrowing that like UM power.

2434
02:26:01,879 --> 02:26:07,960
Speaker 1: So that being said, we want to ground that. We

2435
02:26:08,000 --> 02:26:09,760
Speaker 1: want to ground that a little bit in a like

2436
02:26:09,879 --> 02:26:14,160
Speaker 1: less historicized context or whatever. We could say maybe that's

2437
02:26:14,200 --> 02:26:18,160
Speaker 1: the work that we're doing to build up the institutions

2438
02:26:18,360 --> 02:26:22,720
Speaker 1: and relational structures that we need to care for ourselves

2439
02:26:22,760 --> 02:26:27,320
Speaker 1: in each other UM as we moved through uh sort

2440
02:26:27,360 --> 02:26:33,520
Speaker 1: of like different states of like institutional organization in the society. Right.

2441
02:26:33,640 --> 02:26:36,040
Speaker 1: So when we're thinking about how do we meet our

2442
02:26:36,080 --> 02:26:39,320
Speaker 1: basic needs together in ways that are not dependent on

2443
02:26:39,680 --> 02:26:42,879
Speaker 1: the oppressive institutions that we're trying to overthrow, we're talking

2444
02:26:42,920 --> 02:26:47,760
Speaker 1: about dual power. Yeah, it's like any time working class folks,

2445
02:26:47,879 --> 02:26:51,720
Speaker 1: And it's like in a broad definition, communities, people who

2446
02:26:51,720 --> 02:26:55,840
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily working but like depend on like taking care

2447
02:26:55,879 --> 02:26:58,120
Speaker 1: of each other or who do the work of reproducing

2448
02:26:58,280 --> 02:27:03,359
Speaker 1: every you know society, UM basically build their own independent

2449
02:27:03,480 --> 02:27:07,440
Speaker 1: power like uh to like to be able to fight

2450
02:27:07,520 --> 02:27:11,560
Speaker 1: back and to challenge the you know, the status quo. So,

2451
02:27:11,959 --> 02:27:14,760
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of things they're kind of percolating

2452
02:27:14,840 --> 02:27:18,760
Speaker 1: that we've been like that have been happening in North

2453
02:27:18,840 --> 02:27:23,800
Speaker 1: America that takes inspiration from areas of the global South, UM,

2454
02:27:24,360 --> 02:27:29,120
Speaker 1: but also our homeown, homegrown like traditions, UM. So that

2455
02:27:29,280 --> 02:27:32,920
Speaker 1: could be in anything from like your local mutual aid

2456
02:27:32,959 --> 02:27:37,440
Speaker 1: network to uh, your local tenant union to like a

2457
02:27:37,560 --> 02:27:42,240
Speaker 1: rank and file UM union of like Amazon workers or

2458
02:27:42,520 --> 02:27:49,720
Speaker 1: teachers or care workers, um, you know whose existence puts

2459
02:27:49,840 --> 02:27:55,840
Speaker 1: them in conflict with the state capital um and like patriarchy,

2460
02:27:56,000 --> 02:28:01,760
Speaker 1: settler colonial relations um, you know, like indigenous protectors um,

2461
02:28:02,200 --> 02:28:06,920
Speaker 1: folks who are building up places where the more developed

2462
02:28:06,959 --> 02:28:13,240
Speaker 1: it becomes, the more it kind of built its own momentum.

2463
02:28:13,280 --> 02:28:17,640
Speaker 1: And you have spaces that are like autonomous, fully like

2464
02:28:17,800 --> 02:28:22,840
Speaker 1: autonomous regions from like state power and to begin to

2465
02:28:22,920 --> 02:28:27,320
Speaker 1: like pick apart at capital and like reconfigure are like

2466
02:28:27,959 --> 02:28:30,400
Speaker 1: relations of like how we make things, to do things

2467
02:28:30,480 --> 02:28:32,720
Speaker 1: and take care of each other in like fundamental ways.

2468
02:28:33,280 --> 02:28:35,480
Speaker 1: And we have lots of beautiful examples of this from

2469
02:28:35,560 --> 02:28:39,200
Speaker 1: the like organizing history not even that long ago. And

2470
02:28:39,240 --> 02:28:41,400
Speaker 1: people will be familiar with some of the Black Panther

2471
02:28:41,560 --> 02:28:45,880
Speaker 1: programs or some of the programs that were integrated into

2472
02:28:46,280 --> 02:28:49,880
Speaker 1: the farm workers movement, and some of the programs that

2473
02:28:50,520 --> 02:28:54,600
Speaker 1: were put together by the anarchi feminists who were trying

2474
02:28:54,680 --> 02:28:59,040
Speaker 1: to support women's bodily autonomy and secure abortion rights through

2475
02:28:59,720 --> 02:29:03,360
Speaker 1: thing like mutual aid healthcare and and things like that.

2476
02:29:03,560 --> 02:29:05,840
Speaker 1: So we'll see there's like a lot of really beautiful

2477
02:29:05,879 --> 02:29:10,720
Speaker 1: examples of this work happening over time around successful organizing movements.

2478
02:29:10,760 --> 02:29:13,480
Speaker 1: And we're all really excited about what's going on now

2479
02:29:13,560 --> 02:29:16,320
Speaker 1: and we want to see that just to sort of

2480
02:29:16,480 --> 02:29:19,280
Speaker 1: come together and flourish. I think it's important to think

2481
02:29:19,280 --> 02:29:21,240
Speaker 1: about dual power or something that's like, I don't know,

2482
02:29:21,320 --> 02:29:22,879
Speaker 1: like I I think there's a lot of people who

2483
02:29:23,120 --> 02:29:25,280
Speaker 1: look at it as sort of like dual power is

2484
02:29:25,280 --> 02:29:27,600
Speaker 1: planting a garden. It's like, I mean sort of, yes,

2485
02:29:27,760 --> 02:29:30,640
Speaker 1: but like there's you know, they're there. There's there's sort

2486
02:29:30,640 --> 02:29:32,720
Speaker 1: of two components of it, right, There's there's this sort

2487
02:29:32,760 --> 02:29:35,440
Speaker 1: of there's a defensive component and an offensive component. There's

2488
02:29:35,440 --> 02:29:38,040
Speaker 1: a component that's about taking care of each other, and

2489
02:29:38,200 --> 02:29:40,320
Speaker 1: there is a component that is attack. Right, there's there's

2490
02:29:40,320 --> 02:29:42,279
Speaker 1: there's a component that is the people who are preventing

2491
02:29:42,360 --> 02:29:43,800
Speaker 1: us and taking care of each other need to be

2492
02:29:43,879 --> 02:29:49,120
Speaker 1: stopped from doing that. And so yeah, I think I

2493
02:29:49,400 --> 02:29:53,400
Speaker 1: think it's important to, yeah, think about different kinds of

2494
02:29:54,280 --> 02:29:58,800
Speaker 1: like different kinds of institutions that you would not normally

2495
02:29:58,920 --> 02:30:00,879
Speaker 1: think of as doing the same thing, as being part

2496
02:30:00,920 --> 02:30:03,400
Speaker 1: of the same struggle. And yeah, I guess that brings

2497
02:30:03,480 --> 02:30:06,119
Speaker 1: us to what YouTube and a lot of other people

2498
02:30:06,120 --> 02:30:09,520
Speaker 1: have been working on. For god, it has been this

2499
02:30:09,840 --> 02:30:12,840
Speaker 1: is this has been in the work for a long time. Yeah,

2500
02:30:12,920 --> 02:30:15,400
Speaker 1: which which which is the which is the this? Uh,

2501
02:30:16,360 --> 02:30:19,680
Speaker 1: dual power gathering. And yeah, I guess you want to

2502
02:30:19,680 --> 02:30:24,440
Speaker 1: talk about what what that is because yeah, yeah, well,

2503
02:30:24,480 --> 02:30:26,400
Speaker 1: you know, we've all been sitting around the past couple

2504
02:30:26,440 --> 02:30:30,119
Speaker 1: of years dreaming about being together, and so I think

2505
02:30:30,160 --> 02:30:31,920
Speaker 1: this is kind of the fruit of that dream. Right

2506
02:30:32,680 --> 02:30:36,000
Speaker 1: coming up at the end of July, UH, we're inviting

2507
02:30:36,040 --> 02:30:39,600
Speaker 1: everyone out to the Indiana Dunes for a camping trip.

2508
02:30:40,600 --> 02:30:45,080
Speaker 1: UH and during that time, we're hoping to see a

2509
02:30:45,280 --> 02:30:53,000
Speaker 1: collaboratively produced event that incorporates everything that the participants can

2510
02:30:53,360 --> 02:30:57,160
Speaker 1: bring to it, which we know far exceeds the uh

2511
02:30:58,040 --> 02:31:00,959
Speaker 1: sort of even the scope and vision of the Orangizing Body.

2512
02:31:01,160 --> 02:31:06,280
Speaker 1: So we're really trying to, um, just create a space

2513
02:31:06,400 --> 02:31:09,600
Speaker 1: for people to come together who are interested in these ideas,

2514
02:31:09,840 --> 02:31:13,040
Speaker 1: who have various levels of experience working with it. That

2515
02:31:13,080 --> 02:31:16,960
Speaker 1: will be valuable to everybody, from people who are brand

2516
02:31:17,040 --> 02:31:18,920
Speaker 1: new to this stuff and just want to learn more

2517
02:31:18,920 --> 02:31:20,840
Speaker 1: about it, to people who have have been doing it

2518
02:31:20,959 --> 02:31:25,320
Speaker 1: for years, for decades even UM. And yeah, that's sort

2519
02:31:25,360 --> 02:31:28,960
Speaker 1: of sort of the the underlying ambition of it is

2520
02:31:29,000 --> 02:31:30,960
Speaker 1: to get people together in space. You know, a lot

2521
02:31:31,000 --> 02:31:33,360
Speaker 1: of us have been to these kinds of events before

2522
02:31:33,920 --> 02:31:36,080
Speaker 1: and felt like the most important thing that we got

2523
02:31:36,120 --> 02:31:39,199
Speaker 1: out of that was the relationships that we were able

2524
02:31:39,200 --> 02:31:41,200
Speaker 1: to build and the people that we were able to

2525
02:31:41,280 --> 02:31:45,520
Speaker 1: meet that we could then carry on ongoing dialogues with,

2526
02:31:45,760 --> 02:31:49,119
Speaker 1: and that we could find inspiration uh in in those

2527
02:31:49,200 --> 02:31:52,879
Speaker 1: dialogues and in those connections that would birth new projects

2528
02:31:53,120 --> 02:31:56,440
Speaker 1: that you know, we don't yet know are even possible.

2529
02:31:56,680 --> 02:31:58,240
Speaker 1: And so this is kind of, at least for me,

2530
02:31:58,360 --> 02:32:01,520
Speaker 1: like that's the really important ending sighting force of the

2531
02:32:01,840 --> 02:32:08,400
Speaker 1: of the plan. Yeah. Yeah, I think that, like they're

2532
02:32:08,720 --> 02:32:10,920
Speaker 1: the some of the things about this I think are

2533
02:32:11,000 --> 02:32:15,520
Speaker 1: really like it's been like really a collaborative effort to

2534
02:32:15,879 --> 02:32:18,840
Speaker 1: come up with this thing. Like we had the discussions

2535
02:32:18,840 --> 02:32:20,760
Speaker 1: about this is a thing that needs that we thought

2536
02:32:20,840 --> 02:32:24,280
Speaker 1: need to happen because at the end of like by

2537
02:32:24,560 --> 02:32:28,160
Speaker 1: the end of the middle of one, we're like, look, clearly,

2538
02:32:28,720 --> 02:32:32,000
Speaker 1: we've all been through so many different experiences over the

2539
02:32:32,120 --> 02:32:37,200
Speaker 1: last ten, fifteen, twenty years. At this point some of

2540
02:32:37,280 --> 02:32:41,039
Speaker 1: us are getting to be elders, and um, we uh

2541
02:32:41,280 --> 02:32:45,960
Speaker 1: and we need to like, um, it feels like it's

2542
02:32:46,040 --> 02:32:48,800
Speaker 1: now is an excellent a really great time to have

2543
02:32:49,200 --> 02:32:54,440
Speaker 1: like a actual conversation about where we where we're coming,

2544
02:32:54,520 --> 02:32:58,560
Speaker 1: where we are, where we're coming from and where we're going,

2545
02:32:59,200 --> 02:33:05,119
Speaker 1: and how do we translate these experiences into like networks

2546
02:33:05,720 --> 02:33:11,360
Speaker 1: of like trusting relationships and sharing, um sharing of all

2547
02:33:11,440 --> 02:33:14,120
Speaker 1: this knowledge is like we need to debrief like the

2548
02:33:14,360 --> 02:33:16,880
Speaker 1: like the past five years I think in particular, have

2549
02:33:16,959 --> 02:33:20,240
Speaker 1: been like it's like crammed. It feels like, you know,

2550
02:33:20,360 --> 02:33:23,680
Speaker 1: the whole saying like some some years nothing happens, and

2551
02:33:23,800 --> 02:33:28,040
Speaker 1: some you know, in some months decades happen or phrasing

2552
02:33:28,120 --> 02:33:31,080
Speaker 1: or whatever, and it's like so much stuff has come.

2553
02:33:31,640 --> 02:33:34,080
Speaker 1: We've all gone through so many things and come to

2554
02:33:35,400 --> 02:33:39,280
Speaker 1: like uh, and we're seeing people who didn't have like

2555
02:33:39,440 --> 02:33:43,520
Speaker 1: maybe a stance on various political things or are like

2556
02:33:43,680 --> 02:33:47,560
Speaker 1: seeing their communities torn apart by like the real lived

2557
02:33:47,600 --> 02:33:50,640
Speaker 1: experience of like climate change and wants to and need

2558
02:33:50,720 --> 02:33:52,400
Speaker 1: to do something about it. That sort of thing like

2559
02:33:52,480 --> 02:33:55,560
Speaker 1: bringing in people who have lots of experience with people

2560
02:33:55,600 --> 02:33:59,120
Speaker 1: who have maybe are just now figuring things out and

2561
02:34:00,080 --> 02:34:03,039
Speaker 1: really kind of like musing and taking this as an

2562
02:34:03,120 --> 02:34:07,400
Speaker 1: opportunity to maybe to generate new knowledge so that we're

2563
02:34:07,440 --> 02:34:11,080
Speaker 1: going to be like kind of like clarifying what we've

2564
02:34:11,120 --> 02:34:16,320
Speaker 1: gone through and where we're heading, and um get people

2565
02:34:17,040 --> 02:34:20,320
Speaker 1: like in the same space who like might as a

2566
02:34:20,760 --> 02:34:23,160
Speaker 1: like I do a lot of union ship, So I'm

2567
02:34:23,200 --> 02:34:25,800
Speaker 1: always thinking about how do I get like rank and

2568
02:34:25,840 --> 02:34:29,400
Speaker 1: file union radicals in the same space as like a

2569
02:34:30,280 --> 02:34:34,120
Speaker 1: like a neighborhood abolitionist or a tenant union organizer or

2570
02:34:34,240 --> 02:34:37,600
Speaker 1: a community land trust and getting all these like different

2571
02:34:37,680 --> 02:34:41,120
Speaker 1: groups because together and then like thinking about how they

2572
02:34:41,200 --> 02:34:44,680
Speaker 1: overlap in support and build off of each other because

2573
02:34:44,840 --> 02:34:47,960
Speaker 1: we I think the operating theory of many of people

2574
02:34:48,000 --> 02:34:52,920
Speaker 1: who are involved in this is that every context is

2575
02:34:53,000 --> 02:34:56,280
Speaker 1: different where we're organizing, but many there are many kind

2576
02:34:56,320 --> 02:34:59,600
Speaker 1: of principles that can kind of translate across context, but

2577
02:35:01,440 --> 02:35:04,680
Speaker 1: the context will shape very like like the I was

2578
02:35:04,720 --> 02:35:08,560
Speaker 1: just talking with one of the organizers who's like twenty

2579
02:35:08,600 --> 02:35:12,000
Speaker 1: minutes away over in northwest Indiana, and you're like in Gary,

2580
02:35:12,360 --> 02:35:16,080
Speaker 1: and you know, those areas and their contexts for building

2581
02:35:16,200 --> 02:35:19,440
Speaker 1: something like a an ecosystem too power organizations is going

2582
02:35:19,480 --> 02:35:22,080
Speaker 1: to be very different from my context where I am

2583
02:35:22,800 --> 02:35:28,720
Speaker 1: like down the street from this big global center of

2584
02:35:29,440 --> 02:35:33,640
Speaker 1: capital that's like University of Chicago and like, and it's

2585
02:35:34,160 --> 02:35:37,280
Speaker 1: doing all in my neighborhoods being gentrified by two billion

2586
02:35:37,320 --> 02:35:41,560
Speaker 1: dollar corporations. And I've got a big nurse union, whereas

2587
02:35:41,640 --> 02:35:44,280
Speaker 1: they're in the middle of like a neighbor community that's

2588
02:35:44,320 --> 02:35:47,960
Speaker 1: being actively divested and destroyed, like just like eating away

2589
02:35:48,080 --> 02:35:51,920
Speaker 1: at by like because capital just pulling out and has

2590
02:35:51,959 --> 02:35:54,840
Speaker 1: been doing that for basically as long as you've all been.

2591
02:35:56,560 --> 02:35:58,680
Speaker 1: At the same time, y'all are dealing with the same

2592
02:35:59,320 --> 02:36:04,360
Speaker 1: like biosphere complications and climate change implications, and so yeah,

2593
02:36:04,400 --> 02:36:07,840
Speaker 1: we're thinking about the ways in which like the kinds

2594
02:36:07,879 --> 02:36:10,560
Speaker 1: of affiliations that makes sense for us to be successful

2595
02:36:10,600 --> 02:36:14,760
Speaker 1: in our projects are like, you know, they're not just

2596
02:36:14,959 --> 02:36:17,160
Speaker 1: they're not just local, they're not just national, they're not

2597
02:36:17,240 --> 02:36:20,440
Speaker 1: just continental. There's like a lot of different things that

2598
02:36:20,480 --> 02:36:22,160
Speaker 1: are going on there. And that's the only way for

2599
02:36:22,240 --> 02:36:26,000
Speaker 1: us to really like sort out who we need to

2600
02:36:26,080 --> 02:36:28,880
Speaker 1: be in coaligion with on any particular issue is to

2601
02:36:28,959 --> 02:36:31,960
Speaker 1: know everybody, uh and to try to understand better there

2602
02:36:32,400 --> 02:36:36,320
Speaker 1: they're specific contexts and their specific experiences. And I think

2603
02:36:36,360 --> 02:36:39,600
Speaker 1: there's like, you know, I think, you know, to to

2604
02:36:39,800 --> 02:36:42,120
Speaker 1: John's point about you know, how much has changed in

2605
02:36:42,160 --> 02:36:44,360
Speaker 1: the last two, you know, handful of years or whatever,

2606
02:36:44,440 --> 02:36:46,520
Speaker 1: I think one thing that we've all come away from

2607
02:36:46,959 --> 02:36:50,560
Speaker 1: the pace of change is pretty humbling. You know, um,

2608
02:36:51,000 --> 02:36:53,840
Speaker 1: I think we definitely all we gotta we got. We

2609
02:36:53,959 --> 02:36:56,400
Speaker 1: took in a bit of the humility around around that

2610
02:36:56,800 --> 02:36:59,320
Speaker 1: what is it that we actually need to do? We

2611
02:36:59,400 --> 02:37:02,640
Speaker 1: are definitely not prepared for it, you know, And it

2612
02:37:02,760 --> 02:37:06,000
Speaker 1: doesn't matter how many decades we've been doing this organizing work.

2613
02:37:06,200 --> 02:37:09,760
Speaker 1: We just are not ready for how quickly things are

2614
02:37:09,879 --> 02:37:12,480
Speaker 1: changing right now. And the only way for us to

2615
02:37:12,520 --> 02:37:15,160
Speaker 1: get ready is to make sure that we shore up

2616
02:37:15,200 --> 02:37:18,320
Speaker 1: and strengthen the networks of people that we can rely

2617
02:37:18,480 --> 02:37:23,400
Speaker 1: on to produce kind of positive interdependence um as we

2618
02:37:23,520 --> 02:37:30,000
Speaker 1: move forward with the continued chaos that is the contemporary world. Yeah,

2619
02:37:30,440 --> 02:37:32,320
Speaker 1: I mean. And then part of this is also like

2620
02:37:32,440 --> 02:37:35,680
Speaker 1: thinking about because the way this is structured, this isn't

2621
02:37:35,760 --> 02:37:39,280
Speaker 1: just like a series of panel discussions where we've like

2622
02:37:39,360 --> 02:37:44,080
Speaker 1: the organizers have curated like you're gonna listen to you know, uh,

2623
02:37:44,560 --> 02:37:47,000
Speaker 1: so and so who's like you know, a prominent tenant

2624
02:37:47,120 --> 02:37:49,160
Speaker 1: organizer so and so. It is like a prominent like

2625
02:37:50,040 --> 02:37:54,440
Speaker 1: uh like in like climate change direct action work. Like

2626
02:37:55,160 --> 02:37:58,480
Speaker 1: the goal is is that we like specifically chose a

2627
02:37:58,600 --> 02:38:03,840
Speaker 1: format and officially it's called like like an unconference. But

2628
02:38:03,959 --> 02:38:05,760
Speaker 1: the way I think of it is it's like which

2629
02:38:06,240 --> 02:38:09,119
Speaker 1: which comes out of tech, which I find kind of irritating,

2630
02:38:09,680 --> 02:38:12,760
Speaker 1: But that doesn't. But the core of the idea of

2631
02:38:12,840 --> 02:38:15,840
Speaker 1: the thing is is that we're coming into this space

2632
02:38:16,280 --> 02:38:20,560
Speaker 1: in generating new knowledge, not necessarily sitting there and receiving

2633
02:38:20,600 --> 02:38:23,280
Speaker 1: a bunch of knowledge from people who designate as like

2634
02:38:23,480 --> 02:38:27,280
Speaker 1: movement leaders or experts. That doesn't mean that people who

2635
02:38:27,360 --> 02:38:29,800
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of experience and a lot of

2636
02:38:30,120 --> 02:38:32,119
Speaker 1: like skills aren't going to be there. It just means

2637
02:38:32,200 --> 02:38:35,560
Speaker 1: that we're going to be. Because one of my things

2638
02:38:35,680 --> 02:38:38,720
Speaker 1: is popular education coming from the tradition of like pala

2639
02:38:38,840 --> 02:38:44,840
Speaker 1: Frere and like um everybody learning together is like it's

2640
02:38:44,879 --> 02:38:48,600
Speaker 1: like taking those principles and kind of like doing them

2641
02:38:48,640 --> 02:38:52,680
Speaker 1: in parallel in various circles. Where there will be a

2642
02:38:52,760 --> 02:38:56,400
Speaker 1: circle here of like cooperative organizers or people who want

2643
02:38:56,440 --> 02:38:58,040
Speaker 1: to get coops off the ground. Will be a circle

2644
02:38:58,160 --> 02:39:01,040
Speaker 1: here of people doing land us work. Will be a

2645
02:39:01,120 --> 02:39:03,720
Speaker 1: circle here of like unionists. There will be a circle

2646
02:39:03,840 --> 02:39:10,080
Speaker 1: here of people doing like abolition work, and or interest

2647
02:39:10,120 --> 02:39:11,920
Speaker 1: are people who are interested in all those things are

2648
02:39:11,959 --> 02:39:14,360
Speaker 1: getting those sorts of things off the ground, and as

2649
02:39:14,480 --> 02:39:19,000
Speaker 1: they work through like a like they present tell stories

2650
02:39:19,560 --> 02:39:23,360
Speaker 1: share ideas, do debriefs on like the various things that

2651
02:39:23,520 --> 02:39:26,640
Speaker 1: we've all been going through over you know whatever. How

2652
02:39:26,720 --> 02:39:30,520
Speaker 1: far back our timeline is depending on how far which

2653
02:39:30,600 --> 02:39:35,200
Speaker 1: elders decided to attend UM, but then taking that knowledge

2654
02:39:35,480 --> 02:39:38,000
Speaker 1: with our facilitators and then being like, you know what,

2655
02:39:38,160 --> 02:39:40,440
Speaker 1: I think that these two conversations are happening kind of

2656
02:39:40,520 --> 02:39:43,480
Speaker 1: like in parallel would be better if they were merged

2657
02:39:43,560 --> 02:39:46,440
Speaker 1: together and beginning to kind of like build that sort

2658
02:39:46,480 --> 02:39:50,119
Speaker 1: of like and so the idea isn't necessarily come away

2659
02:39:50,600 --> 02:39:53,920
Speaker 1: with like a pre like we're not setting up like

2660
02:39:54,080 --> 02:39:58,000
Speaker 1: a like a predetermined set of conclusions for people we

2661
02:39:58,240 --> 02:40:01,600
Speaker 1: believe and based off of we've been having monthly community

2662
02:40:01,680 --> 02:40:03,959
Speaker 1: calls for people who are going to be attending. All

2663
02:40:04,040 --> 02:40:06,720
Speaker 1: the different groups of folks who will be coming to

2664
02:40:06,840 --> 02:40:09,000
Speaker 1: this is going to be I think like the depth

2665
02:40:09,080 --> 02:40:12,480
Speaker 1: of experience is going to be really phenomenal UM and

2666
02:40:12,680 --> 02:40:16,200
Speaker 1: people coming from We definitely have people confirmed who are

2667
02:40:16,240 --> 02:40:20,240
Speaker 1: coming from Canada, people who we may be having folks

2668
02:40:20,360 --> 02:40:25,080
Speaker 1: with experience the indigenous communities is uh in Mexico, we

2669
02:40:25,200 --> 02:40:30,240
Speaker 1: maybe have We're fairly confident we're gonna have people who

2670
02:40:30,280 --> 02:40:34,040
Speaker 1: are like just come from areas like northern Syria and

2671
02:40:34,120 --> 02:40:39,240
Speaker 1: iraq Um and taking all these different ideas and experiences

2672
02:40:39,280 --> 02:40:44,560
Speaker 1: and then generating next like coming to new conclusions, maybe

2673
02:40:44,959 --> 02:40:48,040
Speaker 1: unexpected conclusions or things that we didn't quite that we

2674
02:40:48,120 --> 02:40:52,560
Speaker 1: weren't anticipating, but maybe asking new questions. Right Like, this

2675
02:40:52,760 --> 02:40:54,960
Speaker 1: is a kind of intended to be a prefigure of

2676
02:40:55,000 --> 02:40:59,120
Speaker 1: space for engaging with things where we don't know what

2677
02:40:59,280 --> 02:41:01,039
Speaker 1: the right answer is. And I think we all need

2678
02:41:01,120 --> 02:41:02,520
Speaker 1: to release sit with the fact that we do not

2679
02:41:02,760 --> 02:41:06,600
Speaker 1: have like a clear right solution into the problems that

2680
02:41:06,680 --> 02:41:09,879
Speaker 1: we're facing right now. Like I've been kind of pulling

2681
02:41:09,879 --> 02:41:12,280
Speaker 1: on the slogan a little. It's like no gods, no masters,

2682
02:41:12,280 --> 02:41:15,360
Speaker 1: no right answers, you know, just like get used to it.

2683
02:41:18,000 --> 02:41:19,800
Speaker 1: We need to be more creative and we need to

2684
02:41:19,879 --> 02:41:23,440
Speaker 1: be more open to experimentation. And you know, there's just

2685
02:41:23,560 --> 02:41:25,840
Speaker 1: a lot of there's a lot of stuff that's going

2686
02:41:25,879 --> 02:41:28,160
Speaker 1: to be coming at us fast, and you know, this

2687
02:41:28,360 --> 02:41:30,360
Speaker 1: is a we we we hope this can be a

2688
02:41:30,400 --> 02:41:33,040
Speaker 1: space where we can kind of take some time to

2689
02:41:33,200 --> 02:41:35,520
Speaker 1: slowly get square with what it is we're going to

2690
02:41:35,640 --> 02:41:37,600
Speaker 1: have to be thinking about, even if we don't know

2691
02:41:38,560 --> 02:41:43,440
Speaker 1: what to do exactly yet. So I had I had

2692
02:41:43,480 --> 02:41:46,560
Speaker 1: a really good experience where I was listening to like

2693
02:41:46,760 --> 02:41:49,520
Speaker 1: one of the like a person who came out of

2694
02:41:49,560 --> 02:41:53,920
Speaker 1: Act Up giving a talk in my neighborhood, and she

2695
02:41:54,160 --> 02:41:57,560
Speaker 1: was saying, because we had had questions, is this going

2696
02:41:57,600 --> 02:41:59,520
Speaker 1: to be about a lot of theory? Are we gonna

2697
02:41:59,520 --> 02:42:05,519
Speaker 1: be talking about of abstract stuff? And um, this organizer

2698
02:42:05,760 --> 02:42:09,920
Speaker 1: was like, you know, Actup had no theory, right they did.

2699
02:42:10,959 --> 02:42:14,400
Speaker 1: They took action, and the theory followed afterwards. And so

2700
02:42:14,560 --> 02:42:17,680
Speaker 1: the idea that we're like necessarily having coming to this

2701
02:42:17,879 --> 02:42:21,960
Speaker 1: with like the right answers already figured out is just

2702
02:42:23,080 --> 02:42:25,400
Speaker 1: not like something that I think it's going to be

2703
02:42:25,440 --> 02:42:29,000
Speaker 1: a super generative discussion. The idea of coming up with

2704
02:42:29,280 --> 02:42:33,320
Speaker 1: like coming up with orientations and thinking about like where

2705
02:42:33,440 --> 02:42:36,720
Speaker 1: we are heading kind of in a general sense, and

2706
02:42:36,800 --> 02:42:40,000
Speaker 1: then seeing how that unfolds and builds is I think

2707
02:42:40,920 --> 02:42:43,400
Speaker 1: a big, key, key aspect of what we're trying to

2708
02:42:43,480 --> 02:42:47,480
Speaker 1: do when we come together. We're just not to say yeah,

2709
02:42:47,520 --> 02:42:49,040
Speaker 1: which is not to say that there won't be theory,

2710
02:42:49,200 --> 02:42:51,080
Speaker 1: because that's not up to us. That's up to y'all.

2711
02:42:51,760 --> 02:42:56,200
Speaker 1: So you know, um, I probably don't know like what

2712
02:42:56,320 --> 02:43:00,240
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in is having conversations about like doing

2713
02:43:00,240 --> 02:43:02,800
Speaker 1: mental health care, you know, and like, for me, the

2714
02:43:02,920 --> 02:43:06,160
Speaker 1: theory is less interesting than you know, like talking about

2715
02:43:06,200 --> 02:43:08,240
Speaker 1: what we actually need in the spaces that we work in.

2716
02:43:08,480 --> 02:43:10,120
Speaker 1: But that's you know, that's where I'm coming from, and

2717
02:43:10,160 --> 02:43:13,040
Speaker 1: everybody else is coming at this from their own perspective too,

2718
02:43:13,080 --> 02:43:15,400
Speaker 1: So I'm really excited to see what people bring to

2719
02:43:15,520 --> 02:43:17,160
Speaker 1: that space and what we can get out of it.

2720
02:43:17,800 --> 02:43:22,240
Speaker 1: Um by just thinking that we all are contributing something

2721
02:43:22,520 --> 02:43:25,960
Speaker 1: constructive to that conversation. And then also there's gonna be

2722
02:43:25,959 --> 02:43:28,560
Speaker 1: a lot of discussion about like literal practical skills, like

2723
02:43:29,040 --> 02:43:32,600
Speaker 1: here's how you like, here's how you uh. This has

2724
02:43:32,720 --> 02:43:34,720
Speaker 1: always been the perennial thing. This is how you pick

2725
02:43:34,760 --> 02:43:37,400
Speaker 1: a lot, This is how you uh, this is how

2726
02:43:37,520 --> 02:43:41,960
Speaker 1: you organize comms at like at like a like on

2727
02:43:42,040 --> 02:43:46,480
Speaker 1: a picket line. This is how you pull together uh

2728
02:43:47,560 --> 02:43:50,360
Speaker 1: a demand letter for like a list for like tenants,

2729
02:43:50,720 --> 02:43:52,680
Speaker 1: like you know, these are the sorts of things that

2730
02:43:52,920 --> 02:43:55,119
Speaker 1: like we're gonna be talking, We're going to be doing

2731
02:43:55,800 --> 02:44:00,160
Speaker 1: concrete skill shares. Plus these discussions about our experience is

2732
02:44:00,800 --> 02:44:04,440
Speaker 1: and sharing our stories and you know, hopefully we're gonna

2733
02:44:04,480 --> 02:44:06,200
Speaker 1: come away from this. A big goal of it is

2734
02:44:06,280 --> 02:44:10,959
Speaker 1: to um come up with a lot of like different

2735
02:44:11,440 --> 02:44:15,520
Speaker 1: like um, just like content. We're going to be recording

2736
02:44:15,720 --> 02:44:20,280
Speaker 1: videos and uh like uh audio and like also and

2737
02:44:20,320 --> 02:44:22,800
Speaker 1: then transcribing things and writing things up. And we're hoping

2738
02:44:22,879 --> 02:44:24,520
Speaker 1: that once we're then we're gonna have a big report

2739
02:44:24,560 --> 02:44:28,320
Speaker 1: that we can share out with people who can't attend. Yeah,

2740
02:44:28,360 --> 02:44:32,880
Speaker 1: privacy concerns obviously considered. So yeah, for sure, Yeah, there

2741
02:44:33,720 --> 02:44:37,160
Speaker 1: is Consent is a big is a big thing with

2742
02:44:37,800 --> 02:44:43,119
Speaker 1: us as organizers. She should help. So yeah, you would think,

2743
02:44:43,400 --> 02:44:48,480
Speaker 1: but you know, not everyone is down as you would imagine. Okay,

2744
02:44:49,520 --> 02:44:52,120
Speaker 1: so basically we're building a perfect little utopia for like

2745
02:44:52,280 --> 02:44:54,320
Speaker 1: four days and you'll come out because we're going to

2746
02:44:54,400 --> 02:45:00,200
Speaker 1: fix the revolution. So kidding obviously on on on kind

2747
02:45:00,200 --> 02:45:03,160
Speaker 1: of crete level, Like what does like a day here

2748
02:45:03,400 --> 02:45:05,280
Speaker 1: look like? Like what do what are what? What what

2749
02:45:05,680 --> 02:45:08,280
Speaker 1: are we doing? Oh that's fun, that's a fun question.

2750
02:45:08,600 --> 02:45:12,080
Speaker 1: Uh if I may, John, Yeah, yeah, go for it. Um.

2751
02:45:12,240 --> 02:45:14,760
Speaker 1: What we're thinking right now, basically, is it a day.

2752
02:45:14,800 --> 02:45:17,000
Speaker 1: It looks like we get up in the morning, we

2753
02:45:17,160 --> 02:45:20,160
Speaker 1: drink coffee, we have breakfast, and we have a little

2754
02:45:20,200 --> 02:45:22,879
Speaker 1: assembly check in to see how things are going, if

2755
02:45:22,920 --> 02:45:25,280
Speaker 1: we need to make any major adjustments, and we put

2756
02:45:25,400 --> 02:45:29,400
Speaker 1: up a uh sort of schedule for the afternoon's events

2757
02:45:29,480 --> 02:45:33,040
Speaker 1: that was populated from the conversation that was happening in

2758
02:45:33,080 --> 02:45:36,200
Speaker 1: the evening the night before, and anything that anybody wants

2759
02:45:36,240 --> 02:45:40,240
Speaker 1: to bring up to that schedule that happened between yesterday

2760
02:45:40,520 --> 02:45:44,320
Speaker 1: and this morning. Uh, then we're gonna roll off into

2761
02:45:45,040 --> 02:45:49,720
Speaker 1: um basically what would be some of the kind of

2762
02:45:49,800 --> 02:45:52,640
Speaker 1: like things we already know for sure that we wanted

2763
02:45:52,680 --> 02:45:55,080
Speaker 1: to see happening that we could get on a on

2764
02:45:55,160 --> 02:45:57,000
Speaker 1: a sort of schedule ahead of time. So some of

2765
02:45:57,040 --> 02:45:59,680
Speaker 1: these skill shares that were planned that would require kind

2766
02:45:59,680 --> 02:46:03,280
Speaker 1: of like replanning or maybe some discussions that people reached

2767
02:46:03,320 --> 02:46:05,240
Speaker 1: out ahead of time that they definitely wanted to have

2768
02:46:05,760 --> 02:46:07,920
Speaker 1: so that stuff would be happening earlier in the day.

2769
02:46:08,680 --> 02:46:11,160
Speaker 1: Um that you know, we're we're talking about having sort

2770
02:46:11,160 --> 02:46:13,600
Speaker 1: of just like sandwich bars and you know, make your

2771
02:46:13,640 --> 02:46:16,120
Speaker 1: own lunch kind of situations going on. There should be

2772
02:46:16,200 --> 02:46:19,800
Speaker 1: a lot of different things happening in different geographical locations

2773
02:46:19,920 --> 02:46:21,960
Speaker 1: on the site, so you kind of get get a

2774
02:46:22,080 --> 02:46:24,000
Speaker 1: choice of where you want to go. It's not like

2775
02:46:24,080 --> 02:46:26,600
Speaker 1: there's one big event. Um, we're going to try to

2776
02:46:26,640 --> 02:46:29,520
Speaker 1: group things that are sort of thematically similar in so

2777
02:46:29,680 --> 02:46:31,640
Speaker 1: that they're nearby each other in case you want to

2778
02:46:31,680 --> 02:46:34,200
Speaker 1: go around and see, um what the different kind of

2779
02:46:34,200 --> 02:46:35,800
Speaker 1: stuff is going to be. And then in the afternoon

2780
02:46:35,879 --> 02:46:38,280
Speaker 1: it's going to be like I mean, okay, of course

2781
02:46:38,320 --> 02:46:40,880
Speaker 1: this is like how we're intending right now. The afternoon

2782
02:46:40,959 --> 02:46:45,800
Speaker 1: would be the discussions and skill shares and events and

2783
02:46:46,240 --> 02:46:50,200
Speaker 1: circles and spaces that um, we're generated out of the

2784
02:46:50,280 --> 02:46:53,120
Speaker 1: conversations that have been happening in space so that people

2785
02:46:53,240 --> 02:46:56,000
Speaker 1: came and thought, you know, we had this conversation yesterday

2786
02:46:56,080 --> 02:46:58,120
Speaker 1: that really inspired me. Let's talk about this, and I'm

2787
02:46:58,160 --> 02:46:59,680
Speaker 1: going to make space for that. So we're gonna have

2788
02:46:59,760 --> 02:47:02,040
Speaker 1: big map where you figure out where you want to go,

2789
02:47:02,240 --> 02:47:04,119
Speaker 1: and you're gonna be able to wander around and meet people.

2790
02:47:04,320 --> 02:47:06,600
Speaker 1: Were trying to incorporate a lot of events that make

2791
02:47:06,640 --> 02:47:09,800
Speaker 1: it easier to meet other people that you don't know yet. Um.

2792
02:47:10,160 --> 02:47:12,600
Speaker 1: Where there's gonna be tables where you can do arts

2793
02:47:12,640 --> 02:47:15,640
Speaker 1: and crafts. There's gonna be game space for whatever kind

2794
02:47:15,640 --> 02:47:17,880
Speaker 1: of games you want to play. There's gonna be places

2795
02:47:17,920 --> 02:47:20,279
Speaker 1: for kids to hang out. There's gonna be a quiet

2796
02:47:20,360 --> 02:47:23,360
Speaker 1: tent where you can take some contemplation time. You know,

2797
02:47:23,400 --> 02:47:24,920
Speaker 1: at some point we want to do it like a

2798
02:47:25,120 --> 02:47:27,760
Speaker 1: kind of brief circle for people to deal with what

2799
02:47:27,879 --> 02:47:30,080
Speaker 1: they've been kind of going through in the world. And

2800
02:47:30,800 --> 02:47:35,520
Speaker 1: you know some uh you know, utopia, envisioning arts space,

2801
02:47:35,720 --> 02:47:38,680
Speaker 1: you know, these kinds of things like where um, you know,

2802
02:47:38,760 --> 02:47:41,200
Speaker 1: somebody wants to teach someone else a dance. Like that's

2803
02:47:41,240 --> 02:47:43,000
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that we're really hoping can go on.

2804
02:47:43,200 --> 02:47:46,840
Speaker 1: In the afternoon. Uh, then we would be feeding everybody dinner,

2805
02:47:47,320 --> 02:47:49,119
Speaker 1: and we kind of had this idea we've been playing

2806
02:47:49,160 --> 02:47:52,680
Speaker 1: with that we would have two campfires after dinner, and

2807
02:47:53,040 --> 02:47:55,640
Speaker 1: one campfire will have kind of an open forum where

2808
02:47:55,680 --> 02:47:58,520
Speaker 1: anybody can talk for like ten, fifteen, twenty minutes, you

2809
02:47:58,560 --> 02:48:00,960
Speaker 1: know whatever however long people need who are there, depending

2810
02:48:01,000 --> 02:48:04,320
Speaker 1: on how popular that is, and just kind of air

2811
02:48:04,480 --> 02:48:06,920
Speaker 1: everything that's in their head. And we'll have a note

2812
02:48:06,959 --> 02:48:09,080
Speaker 1: taker so we can try to incorporate what comes out

2813
02:48:09,120 --> 02:48:12,640
Speaker 1: of those discussions into the next days agenda. Um. And

2814
02:48:12,720 --> 02:48:15,040
Speaker 1: so that's sort of like what we were what we

2815
02:48:15,160 --> 02:48:17,760
Speaker 1: were envisioning. And then for the other campfire, because people

2816
02:48:17,760 --> 02:48:21,480
Speaker 1: who don't don't forget this, the other the other the

2817
02:48:21,560 --> 02:48:24,520
Speaker 1: other camp fire for people who are like done with talk,

2818
02:48:25,160 --> 02:48:27,400
Speaker 1: I need to just sit and stare at and flames

2819
02:48:27,440 --> 02:48:31,039
Speaker 1: for a little bit. Yeah, I imagine I'll be going

2820
02:48:31,120 --> 02:48:33,320
Speaker 1: back and forth between the fires, so you know, that's

2821
02:48:33,320 --> 02:48:35,800
Speaker 1: also an option. But the idea is to get kind

2822
02:48:35,840 --> 02:48:38,879
Speaker 1: of like somewhere between I think when we were calling

2823
02:48:38,959 --> 02:48:41,199
Speaker 1: us like somewhere between a conference and a music festival,

2824
02:48:41,600 --> 02:48:44,480
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like there where you're able

2825
02:48:44,520 --> 02:48:46,280
Speaker 1: to sort of move around and you don't have to

2826
02:48:46,360 --> 02:48:48,480
Speaker 1: go and sit in one place and do like, okay

2827
02:48:48,560 --> 02:48:51,160
Speaker 1: for this hour, this is where you know, it's it's

2828
02:48:51,440 --> 02:48:53,880
Speaker 1: it's meant to be a bit more informal, um and

2829
02:48:53,959 --> 02:48:55,640
Speaker 1: we're hoping that that makes a lot more space for

2830
02:48:55,720 --> 02:48:58,400
Speaker 1: people to sort of explore and people to meet other

2831
02:48:58,480 --> 02:49:02,720
Speaker 1: people that they don't already know. Because I don't know

2832
02:49:02,720 --> 02:49:04,520
Speaker 1: if that if that, if that sums up sort of

2833
02:49:04,600 --> 02:49:06,240
Speaker 1: like what I'm imagining, because that's like, you know, that's

2834
02:49:06,280 --> 02:49:07,880
Speaker 1: the spirit. So I think if that's the question, like

2835
02:49:07,920 --> 02:49:10,080
Speaker 1: what does the date look like, well, hopefully it's fun.

2836
02:49:10,720 --> 02:49:12,880
Speaker 1: You know, that's kind of the main the main thing

2837
02:49:12,920 --> 02:49:16,600
Speaker 1: we're thinking here, So make it sort of low stress

2838
02:49:16,760 --> 02:49:19,160
Speaker 1: and low stakes place that we can talk about some

2839
02:49:19,280 --> 02:49:21,600
Speaker 1: of the highest stress and highest stakes questions that we

2840
02:49:21,720 --> 02:49:26,080
Speaker 1: have to deal with. So yeah, and like that being said,

2841
02:49:26,320 --> 02:49:30,600
Speaker 1: like because we're modeling it this way specifically based on

2842
02:49:30,760 --> 02:49:35,600
Speaker 1: people's experience with like the Symbiosish Federations founding conference, that

2843
02:49:35,720 --> 02:49:39,119
Speaker 1: sort of thing where there were a lot of stakes

2844
02:49:39,280 --> 02:49:42,040
Speaker 1: and people were trying to kind of like funnel different

2845
02:49:42,080 --> 02:49:45,359
Speaker 1: discussions through different ways. And this is not a necessarily

2846
02:49:45,440 --> 02:49:47,200
Speaker 1: critique of how that all went down. It's just like

2847
02:49:47,360 --> 02:49:52,720
Speaker 1: based on our experience and our experiences with those sorts

2848
02:49:52,720 --> 02:49:57,240
Speaker 1: of things. The goal is too for this to be

2849
02:49:57,800 --> 02:50:01,280
Speaker 1: if it's successful the first of many of these sorts

2850
02:50:01,320 --> 02:50:05,080
Speaker 1: of things, UM, many of these kind of gatherings and discussions,

2851
02:50:05,160 --> 02:50:07,039
Speaker 1: and to provide a model for how it could happen.

2852
02:50:07,600 --> 02:50:12,160
Speaker 1: But to keep um, we deliberately decided that this we're

2853
02:50:12,200 --> 02:50:13,800
Speaker 1: not going to make like a bit We're not going

2854
02:50:13,840 --> 02:50:16,960
Speaker 1: to have big points of unity debate and discussion and

2855
02:50:17,080 --> 02:50:21,080
Speaker 1: voting on assembly sort of thing. We will use assemblies

2856
02:50:21,160 --> 02:50:23,320
Speaker 1: for you know, certain things like setting up like our

2857
02:50:23,840 --> 02:50:25,960
Speaker 1: community agreements and that sort of stuff, and kind of

2858
02:50:26,040 --> 02:50:29,520
Speaker 1: like getting the days rolling and kind of getting the

2859
02:50:29,600 --> 02:50:33,200
Speaker 1: days closed. But the goal is like to not is

2860
02:50:33,320 --> 02:50:38,480
Speaker 1: to bring people into conversation who haven't who maybe don't

2861
02:50:38,520 --> 02:50:42,800
Speaker 1: have the basis of trust for those bigger collective like

2862
02:50:42,959 --> 02:50:47,040
Speaker 1: discussions yet, but maybe they will later. But the goal

2863
02:50:47,160 --> 02:50:51,240
Speaker 1: is for now is we're getting We're building and expanding

2864
02:50:51,280 --> 02:50:55,440
Speaker 1: our networks. We're building, expanding our trust with different people

2865
02:50:56,120 --> 02:50:58,880
Speaker 1: and building expanding our knowledge so that we can go

2866
02:50:59,040 --> 02:51:01,640
Speaker 1: out and do kind of work that we think we

2867
02:51:01,720 --> 02:51:04,400
Speaker 1: need to do to I don't know survives as a

2868
02:51:04,480 --> 02:51:08,080
Speaker 1: species on this planet. So um, that's one of the

2869
02:51:08,120 --> 02:51:10,240
Speaker 1: reasons why if there are some people are like, oh,

2870
02:51:10,400 --> 02:51:12,279
Speaker 1: I don't know, it seems really kind of wishy washy.

2871
02:51:12,640 --> 02:51:15,720
Speaker 1: It's very that was a very deliberate decision based on

2872
02:51:16,000 --> 02:51:19,199
Speaker 1: previous experience from organizers who have been to these sorts

2873
02:51:19,240 --> 02:51:23,040
Speaker 1: of things. And the goal is really too, to have

2874
02:51:23,320 --> 02:51:25,879
Speaker 1: a place where we can have discussions about high stakes

2875
02:51:25,959 --> 02:51:30,119
Speaker 1: issues without being so invested in it that we feel

2876
02:51:30,200 --> 02:51:34,600
Speaker 1: like if our concept of how to solve that problem

2877
02:51:35,160 --> 02:51:39,480
Speaker 1: doesn't come out as the like solution, that we've somehow failed.

2878
02:51:40,080 --> 02:51:43,960
Speaker 1: So it's like, yeah, I was to say that I

2879
02:51:44,000 --> 02:51:45,400
Speaker 1: think one of the one of these things that you

2880
02:51:45,560 --> 02:51:48,040
Speaker 1: that you brought up there, that's really important. It's like

2881
02:51:48,160 --> 02:51:51,160
Speaker 1: not even just in these previous conferences or congresses or

2882
02:51:51,440 --> 02:51:53,520
Speaker 1: gatherings that we've been to have we seen to be

2883
02:51:53,600 --> 02:51:56,040
Speaker 1: a problem. But basically, at least I can speak for

2884
02:51:56,160 --> 02:51:58,960
Speaker 1: myself in a lot of organizing spaces that I've been

2885
02:51:59,040 --> 02:52:01,880
Speaker 1: in over the past, you know, like fifteen years that

2886
02:52:02,000 --> 02:52:05,840
Speaker 1: I've been pretty active in in the organizing universe. Um,

2887
02:52:07,959 --> 02:52:11,000
Speaker 1: basically that one of the main problems that we have

2888
02:52:11,320 --> 02:52:13,640
Speaker 1: with this kind of like space of trust that we

2889
02:52:14,320 --> 02:52:16,600
Speaker 1: definitely know that we need to be able to work

2890
02:52:16,640 --> 02:52:19,280
Speaker 1: together and moving forward, is that we don't really have

2891
02:52:19,360 --> 02:52:21,320
Speaker 1: shared language a lot of the time. And we think

2892
02:52:21,360 --> 02:52:23,080
Speaker 1: we do because we use the same words, but we

2893
02:52:23,160 --> 02:52:25,959
Speaker 1: often use them to mean different things, or we often

2894
02:52:26,040 --> 02:52:28,280
Speaker 1: use different words to mean the same things as well.

2895
02:52:28,400 --> 02:52:30,600
Speaker 1: And then we come from kind of different organizing cultures

2896
02:52:30,680 --> 02:52:33,280
Speaker 1: and a lot of different places like that some are

2897
02:52:33,400 --> 02:52:37,320
Speaker 1: more are less. We should say that maybe that there

2898
02:52:37,600 --> 02:52:41,040
Speaker 1: there are different places where you show solidarity in a

2899
02:52:41,080 --> 02:52:43,880
Speaker 1: different way, you show good faith, and you show that

2900
02:52:43,959 --> 02:52:46,160
Speaker 1: you're committed in a different way. What it means to

2901
02:52:46,240 --> 02:52:48,920
Speaker 1: be democratic in a space seems different depending on this

2902
02:52:49,080 --> 02:52:51,280
Speaker 1: on the tradition that you that you may be come from.

2903
02:52:51,360 --> 02:52:53,560
Speaker 1: So what we're really hoping to do is kind of

2904
02:52:53,600 --> 02:52:55,640
Speaker 1: makes space to incorporate all of that. So we were

2905
02:52:56,120 --> 02:52:58,160
Speaker 1: was joking it was a camping trip, where many camping

2906
02:52:58,200 --> 02:53:01,800
Speaker 1: trips fit, you know that like that there should be

2907
02:53:01,879 --> 02:53:04,360
Speaker 1: an opportunity for people to kind of like learn to

2908
02:53:04,440 --> 02:53:08,400
Speaker 1: talk past those those barriers that we might have to

2909
02:53:09,320 --> 02:53:12,360
Speaker 1: understanding each other, and like that success would really look

2910
02:53:12,440 --> 02:53:17,360
Speaker 1: like people coming away believing in other people's commitment to

2911
02:53:17,480 --> 02:53:20,400
Speaker 1: get this done and with the kind of contacts that

2912
02:53:20,520 --> 02:53:23,680
Speaker 1: they need to support each other moving forward as things

2913
02:53:23,760 --> 02:53:26,120
Speaker 1: come up in different places, as opposed to just like

2914
02:53:26,879 --> 02:53:29,760
Speaker 1: here's a solution, like here's a blueprint for how to

2915
02:53:29,800 --> 02:53:32,760
Speaker 1: get this done. You know that relationship that you have

2916
02:53:32,920 --> 02:53:34,920
Speaker 1: with a person who has had that experience in the

2917
02:53:34,959 --> 02:53:37,360
Speaker 1: past is going to be way more valuable than any

2918
02:53:37,440 --> 02:53:40,520
Speaker 1: document they give you based on their experience, because you're

2919
02:53:40,560 --> 02:53:42,800
Speaker 1: gonna be able to say, well, ship, I wasn't expecting

2920
02:53:42,879 --> 02:53:45,640
Speaker 1: this to happen, Like what do we do? And then

2921
02:53:45,680 --> 02:53:48,080
Speaker 1: you can talk through that with them, and like that's

2922
02:53:48,160 --> 02:53:51,560
Speaker 1: really I think that's really the foundation of our being

2923
02:53:51,600 --> 02:53:54,000
Speaker 1: able to share this knowledge with each other is that

2924
02:53:54,640 --> 02:53:57,680
Speaker 1: we have the opportunity to kind of engage in these

2925
02:53:57,760 --> 02:54:02,200
Speaker 1: ways that are more focused on the kind of just

2926
02:54:03,600 --> 02:54:07,120
Speaker 1: the sort of dynamism of the of the challenges that

2927
02:54:07,240 --> 02:54:11,240
Speaker 1: we're dealing with right now. So emergence is a big thing.

2928
02:54:11,520 --> 02:54:14,039
Speaker 1: Things are always gonna like things that are always going

2929
02:54:14,120 --> 02:54:18,560
Speaker 1: to be changing, Like, uh, we are we need to

2930
02:54:18,600 --> 02:54:23,560
Speaker 1: be prepared to deal with a world that's gonna be

2931
02:54:23,680 --> 02:54:28,240
Speaker 1: throwing challenges at us that like we haven't like we

2932
02:54:28,360 --> 02:54:32,840
Speaker 1: haven't had solutions for and like because we're going through

2933
02:54:33,040 --> 02:54:37,440
Speaker 1: that's like really kind of like catastrophic like uh the

2934
02:54:37,560 --> 02:54:43,920
Speaker 1: moments of like uh climate change and um, I mean,

2935
02:54:44,000 --> 02:54:45,680
Speaker 1: I don't know how else to say it, but like

2936
02:54:46,280 --> 02:54:49,280
Speaker 1: and and so it's it's like engendering the idea, the

2937
02:54:49,440 --> 02:54:55,600
Speaker 1: idea that we're constantly evaluating what's happening around us, both

2938
02:54:55,720 --> 02:54:59,440
Speaker 1: like at our local level and across the regions and

2939
02:54:59,600 --> 02:55:03,760
Speaker 1: global and then taking new knowledge in and coming up

2940
02:55:03,800 --> 02:55:07,000
Speaker 1: with new solutions um in a real like in like

2941
02:55:07,120 --> 02:55:11,279
Speaker 1: a truly experimental way, like thinking about things is like experiments,

2942
02:55:11,400 --> 02:55:13,000
Speaker 1: and how we're going to like come up with new

2943
02:55:13,120 --> 02:55:17,240
Speaker 1: solutions to these problems because it's just well, like as

2944
02:55:17,280 --> 02:55:22,920
Speaker 1: we kept telling people, because when we're out there trying

2945
02:55:22,959 --> 02:55:26,280
Speaker 1: to bring groups in everyone's selling us our capacity. This

2946
02:55:26,400 --> 02:55:30,920
Speaker 1: sounds great. Our capacity is incredibly low. Uh. And that

2947
02:55:31,120 --> 02:55:35,720
Speaker 1: has just been across the entire spectrum of organizations, and

2948
02:55:35,800 --> 02:55:39,960
Speaker 1: that includes huge, big, put together organizations like you know

2949
02:55:41,000 --> 02:55:45,960
Speaker 1: unions versus little mutual a groups. Everybody is dealing with

2950
02:55:46,120 --> 02:55:51,480
Speaker 1: this like feeling of exhaustioning like capacity. Our goal is

2951
02:55:51,560 --> 02:55:54,199
Speaker 1: to get people together so that they can build capacity

2952
02:55:54,720 --> 02:55:58,400
Speaker 1: UM through these discussions and to be prepared for things,

2953
02:55:58,440 --> 02:56:00,960
Speaker 1: because capacity is always going to be an issue. And

2954
02:56:01,040 --> 02:56:03,520
Speaker 1: our goal is to get people to this point where

2955
02:56:04,200 --> 02:56:10,120
Speaker 1: because they're um, their mindset is okay, new challenge, Let's

2956
02:56:10,160 --> 02:56:12,720
Speaker 1: think about it critically and come up with solutions that

2957
02:56:12,800 --> 02:56:15,000
Speaker 1: fit this moment as supposed to keep trying to force

2958
02:56:15,120 --> 02:56:20,280
Speaker 1: things into UM preset like easy. I mean, I don't

2959
02:56:20,280 --> 02:56:22,959
Speaker 1: want to say easy, but like I think that sometimes

2960
02:56:23,120 --> 02:56:25,880
Speaker 1: like everyone's trying to mind history for the like the

2961
02:56:26,400 --> 02:56:29,760
Speaker 1: one weird trick to solve all these problems. And I

2962
02:56:29,879 --> 02:56:32,440
Speaker 1: think that the one weird trick is that human beings

2963
02:56:32,600 --> 02:56:39,080
Speaker 1: are creative, critical thinking machines. Like our our brain is

2964
02:56:39,160 --> 02:56:42,280
Speaker 1: like this thing for taking in information and generating new

2965
02:56:42,560 --> 02:56:46,520
Speaker 1: new thought and action, and we need to embrace that

2966
02:56:47,360 --> 02:56:49,840
Speaker 1: UM because if we don't. I don't think we're going

2967
02:56:49,879 --> 02:56:52,879
Speaker 1: to be very successful certainly. And the yeah, and these

2968
02:56:52,920 --> 02:56:56,600
Speaker 1: times of just increasing uncertainty, that kind of humility and

2969
02:56:56,680 --> 02:57:01,840
Speaker 1: flexibility and like continue building of comfort with that uncertainty

2970
02:57:01,959 --> 02:57:04,200
Speaker 1: is going to be super essential to our being able

2971
02:57:04,280 --> 02:57:07,640
Speaker 1: to maintain even sort of like the basic ability to

2972
02:57:07,800 --> 02:57:09,800
Speaker 1: take action. And I think so we're going to have

2973
02:57:09,920 --> 02:57:13,800
Speaker 1: to like continue to like to lean into that uncertainty

2974
02:57:14,040 --> 02:57:16,240
Speaker 1: and to sort of I think, you know, kind of

2975
02:57:16,320 --> 02:57:21,400
Speaker 1: historically the being comfortable with things changing and being comfortable

2976
02:57:21,400 --> 02:57:23,720
Speaker 1: with uncertainty is actually one of our great strengths, right

2977
02:57:23,720 --> 02:57:26,640
Speaker 1: because we can actually start to get moving while everybody

2978
02:57:26,680 --> 02:57:28,800
Speaker 1: else is still going, what the hell? You know? And

2979
02:57:29,000 --> 02:57:31,040
Speaker 1: so I think, you know, that's going to definitely be

2980
02:57:31,120 --> 02:57:34,840
Speaker 1: something that's going to serve us. And Yeah, anyway, I

2981
02:57:35,400 --> 02:57:39,040
Speaker 1: have I have one last I question on an extremely

2982
02:57:39,120 --> 02:57:43,160
Speaker 1: practical level, which is like what is the like facility

2983
02:57:43,240 --> 02:57:46,720
Speaker 1: situation here? Like how what what are what are people

2984
02:57:46,800 --> 02:57:53,520
Speaker 1: sleeping in? Uh? So, like right now where we like

2985
02:57:53,720 --> 02:58:00,080
Speaker 1: we have camp space reserved for people, um, and so

2986
02:58:01,440 --> 02:58:05,040
Speaker 1: we understand the camping is not always super accessible, but

2987
02:58:05,280 --> 02:58:09,039
Speaker 1: we are very fortunate that like the National Lake Shore

2988
02:58:10,480 --> 02:58:15,000
Speaker 1: has specific accessible facilities UM for folks, and we do

2989
02:58:15,240 --> 02:58:20,520
Speaker 1: have disabled like UH comrades coming to this event, and

2990
02:58:20,600 --> 02:58:25,000
Speaker 1: we're working on making sure that those UH that their

2991
02:58:25,240 --> 02:58:29,840
Speaker 1: particular needs don't keep them from participating fully in the events.

2992
02:58:30,320 --> 02:58:35,120
Speaker 1: There's UM the discussions and circles themselves will be UM

2993
02:58:35,400 --> 02:58:39,240
Speaker 1: at like shelter space UM a bit away from where

2994
02:58:39,280 --> 02:58:43,520
Speaker 1: the camping is happening, so we're organizing transport between us

2995
02:58:43,560 --> 02:58:48,880
Speaker 1: to split those spaces UM. For people who cannot camp,

2996
02:58:49,520 --> 02:58:53,920
Speaker 1: we are working organizing some hotel space for folks UM,

2997
02:58:54,120 --> 02:58:56,640
Speaker 1: and then for people who can camp but don't have

2998
02:58:56,760 --> 02:59:01,200
Speaker 1: any equipment. Our goal is to work going to UM

2999
02:59:01,480 --> 02:59:07,040
Speaker 1: basically acquire like enough camping equipment for a sizeable chunk

3000
02:59:07,080 --> 02:59:11,000
Speaker 1: of folks to come. And UH. It's like literally today

3001
02:59:11,120 --> 02:59:15,200
Speaker 1: walking through a Walmart with my daughter looking at their

3002
02:59:15,400 --> 02:59:19,720
Speaker 1: camp equipment in pricing out things like sleeping bags and

3003
02:59:20,000 --> 02:59:25,600
Speaker 1: camp like sleeping mattresses, intense that sort of thing. So yeah,

3004
02:59:26,000 --> 02:59:28,480
Speaker 1: if people have have stuff they want to donate to

3005
02:59:28,560 --> 02:59:31,240
Speaker 1: the cause to like, I think we should be able

3006
02:59:31,280 --> 02:59:33,360
Speaker 1: to take some of that in. I think we were

3007
02:59:33,440 --> 02:59:38,400
Speaker 1: just talking yesterday about the possibility of having like camp

3008
02:59:38,480 --> 02:59:41,760
Speaker 1: gear repair zone. So if you have things that you

3009
02:59:41,840 --> 02:59:43,840
Speaker 1: find at the thrift store that like a tour intent

3010
02:59:44,040 --> 02:59:45,720
Speaker 1: or something like that will help you fix it. You know,

3011
02:59:45,800 --> 02:59:47,520
Speaker 1: we just want to make sure that everybody has these

3012
02:59:48,400 --> 02:59:51,040
Speaker 1: supplies as well, because they're they're broadly useful. I know

3013
02:59:51,480 --> 02:59:58,640
Speaker 1: I've used my camping gear in uh some politically motivated

3014
02:59:58,640 --> 03:00:01,720
Speaker 1: ways in the best I think that it's not bad

3015
03:00:01,760 --> 03:00:05,240
Speaker 1: for people to have it if you need it. Also,

3016
03:00:05,920 --> 03:00:10,680
Speaker 1: you know, the camping aspect of it is also it's

3017
03:00:10,720 --> 03:00:12,680
Speaker 1: more of a feature than a bug. Like there's like

3018
03:00:12,800 --> 03:00:16,359
Speaker 1: a like so to so to speak, like the pandemic

3019
03:00:16,520 --> 03:00:19,840
Speaker 1: is not over yet, as we're like seeing right UM

3020
03:00:20,000 --> 03:00:23,960
Speaker 1: in spite of everything that like a ruling class is

3021
03:00:24,040 --> 03:00:28,600
Speaker 1: desperately trying to get us to agree to and so

3022
03:00:29,440 --> 03:00:35,240
Speaker 1: having um the accommodations outside and doing the doing the

3023
03:00:35,280 --> 03:00:39,160
Speaker 1: actual events like out of doors where there's lots of ventilatation.

3024
03:00:41,040 --> 03:00:45,080
Speaker 1: We think it is like right now one of these

3025
03:00:45,160 --> 03:00:48,120
Speaker 1: events so that we're not going to get so that

3026
03:00:48,160 --> 03:00:51,160
Speaker 1: people aren't going to come away from this UM getting sick,

3027
03:00:51,320 --> 03:00:55,120
Speaker 1: which is really important m from I mean as a

3028
03:00:55,200 --> 03:01:01,080
Speaker 1: person who's recovering from COVID COVID rounds two UM and

3029
03:01:01,240 --> 03:01:03,600
Speaker 1: as a healthcare worker. That was one of our big

3030
03:01:04,120 --> 03:01:08,280
Speaker 1: concerns because when we started making these plans, we really

3031
03:01:08,320 --> 03:01:10,879
Speaker 1: weren't sure what was going to be happening in terms

3032
03:01:10,920 --> 03:01:14,320
Speaker 1: of the pandemic, and having it out of doors was

3033
03:01:14,360 --> 03:01:16,440
Speaker 1: just like a sure fireway that we knew that we

3034
03:01:16,480 --> 03:01:19,800
Speaker 1: could at the very least, we can minimize the chances

3035
03:01:19,959 --> 03:01:23,280
Speaker 1: that people would be getting sick from just showing up

3036
03:01:23,320 --> 03:01:27,520
Speaker 1: and being s space together absolutely, and we're definitely encouraging

3037
03:01:27,560 --> 03:01:30,320
Speaker 1: people who are coming together with friends and comrades and

3038
03:01:30,440 --> 03:01:33,560
Speaker 1: little groups to self organize their camps as much as

3039
03:01:33,640 --> 03:01:37,240
Speaker 1: they would like to do that UM to sort of

3040
03:01:37,360 --> 03:01:42,080
Speaker 1: make plans together to limit the UM you know, the

3041
03:01:42,520 --> 03:01:45,000
Speaker 1: need for spaces. You know, we're sharing up tents and

3042
03:01:45,120 --> 03:01:47,000
Speaker 1: all this kind of stuff to the extent that people

3043
03:01:47,000 --> 03:01:48,840
Speaker 1: are comfortable with that that you know, people, if you

3044
03:01:49,520 --> 03:01:51,440
Speaker 1: need to get in touch with people from around you,

3045
03:01:51,440 --> 03:01:53,360
Speaker 1: if you don't know anybody, you can reach out to us.

3046
03:01:53,400 --> 03:01:55,960
Speaker 1: If we know anybody else who's looking for somebody to

3047
03:01:56,640 --> 03:01:59,040
Speaker 1: try to coordinate with, will definitely put you in touch to.

3048
03:01:59,160 --> 03:02:00,880
Speaker 1: Something we want to be able to do is like

3049
03:02:01,520 --> 03:02:05,200
Speaker 1: offer some of these connective services to help people UM

3050
03:02:05,520 --> 03:02:07,480
Speaker 1: to link up with people who are coming from from

3051
03:02:07,520 --> 03:02:09,520
Speaker 1: their areas or people who are interested in the same

3052
03:02:09,600 --> 03:02:12,600
Speaker 1: kinds of things. UM. And so we're kind of thinking

3053
03:02:12,959 --> 03:02:16,360
Speaker 1: of ourselves in the organizing body is facilitators of those

3054
03:02:16,400 --> 03:02:19,440
Speaker 1: connections and trying to imagine how what we do will

3055
03:02:19,480 --> 03:02:23,320
Speaker 1: make those connections most likely to happen. UM. So in

3056
03:02:23,480 --> 03:02:25,920
Speaker 1: terms of the of the facilities as well, I think

3057
03:02:26,040 --> 03:02:28,920
Speaker 1: we we've talked about trying to get some camp stoves

3058
03:02:28,920 --> 03:02:30,880
Speaker 1: together for people who need to use sort of a

3059
03:02:30,959 --> 03:02:33,200
Speaker 1: kitchen space to try to limit the amount of things

3060
03:02:33,240 --> 03:02:35,640
Speaker 1: that people need to bring for that, but definitely feel free,

3061
03:02:36,280 --> 03:02:38,760
Speaker 1: uh to bring bring your own stuff and and and

3062
03:02:38,840 --> 03:02:41,640
Speaker 1: set up whatever whatever you need and let us know

3063
03:02:41,760 --> 03:02:43,560
Speaker 1: if you need help from us. Well, we'll do our

3064
03:02:43,600 --> 03:02:47,080
Speaker 1: best to accommodate. And people are getting fed, like so

3065
03:02:47,200 --> 03:02:51,160
Speaker 1: we're playing and having meals arranged and that will be

3066
03:02:51,360 --> 03:02:56,920
Speaker 1: vegan and uh with the caveat that Folks who want

3067
03:02:56,959 --> 03:03:01,320
Speaker 1: to have separate food, like do their own self organized

3068
03:03:01,400 --> 03:03:04,080
Speaker 1: like cooking with that other thing, they that they're really

3069
03:03:04,080 --> 03:03:09,119
Speaker 1: committed to. UM. And we're playing and having like all

3070
03:03:09,160 --> 03:03:12,240
Speaker 1: the necessities of like lots of water, make sure that

3071
03:03:12,400 --> 03:03:15,000
Speaker 1: like we've got first aid lined up. There's gonna be

3072
03:03:15,120 --> 03:03:18,560
Speaker 1: street credics who are participating in the work of organizing

3073
03:03:18,600 --> 03:03:24,320
Speaker 1: all that harm reduction UM and just generally like like

3074
03:03:24,560 --> 03:03:27,120
Speaker 1: some of the other things that didn't really mentioned, Like

3075
03:03:27,240 --> 03:03:28,880
Speaker 1: we know that we're bringing a bunch of people with

3076
03:03:28,920 --> 03:03:31,160
Speaker 1: a lot of big ideas and big personalities together, and

3077
03:03:31,240 --> 03:03:33,520
Speaker 1: that means we're probably gonna have to deal with some conflict.

3078
03:03:34,080 --> 03:03:40,240
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know, so having UM conflicts, uh, like

3079
03:03:40,360 --> 03:03:42,680
Speaker 1: people who are good at media and conflict. We're going

3080
03:03:42,720 --> 03:03:45,600
Speaker 1: to have a crew of people who do that. We're

3081
03:03:45,640 --> 03:03:49,400
Speaker 1: working on child watch training because this is going to

3082
03:03:49,480 --> 03:03:53,560
Speaker 1: be the family from space, making sure that we know

3083
03:03:53,680 --> 03:03:56,080
Speaker 1: how to take care of each other in case like

3084
03:03:56,200 --> 03:03:58,920
Speaker 1: shady people from outside trying to do something like whatever.

3085
03:03:59,200 --> 03:04:02,000
Speaker 1: Like our goal is to just make sure that like

3086
03:04:02,240 --> 03:04:05,840
Speaker 1: this is UM as safe as it can be, bringing

3087
03:04:05,840 --> 03:04:09,519
Speaker 1: people together as successful as it can be. Understanding implementations

3088
03:04:09,600 --> 03:04:13,000
Speaker 1: of who's gonna be You're gonna be outside, so there

3089
03:04:13,040 --> 03:04:16,959
Speaker 1: might be you know, all the some of the fun

3090
03:04:17,200 --> 03:04:20,840
Speaker 1: of having like a collective group of people all outside together,

3091
03:04:21,520 --> 03:04:26,320
Speaker 1: which can be a lot of fun. Like I'm I'm

3092
03:04:26,400 --> 03:04:32,160
Speaker 1: waiting for karaoke and for UM like our open mic

3093
03:04:32,480 --> 03:04:35,119
Speaker 1: and people bringing out like instruments and like just having

3094
03:04:35,320 --> 03:04:39,920
Speaker 1: like you know, we're people discussing like, um, you know

3095
03:04:40,640 --> 03:04:47,680
Speaker 1: some soccer uh potentially being a thing, um determining like

3096
03:04:47,920 --> 03:04:51,520
Speaker 1: placing bets on who's going to be more into soccer

3097
03:04:51,760 --> 03:04:59,520
Speaker 1: based on various ideological fin views and past experience, and yeah,

3098
03:04:59,640 --> 03:05:01,480
Speaker 1: hit us up if you want to play some music,

3099
03:05:01,640 --> 03:05:03,640
Speaker 1: if you've got an idea for something fun that sounds

3100
03:05:03,720 --> 03:05:06,160
Speaker 1: cool to do. And just to come to circle back

3101
03:05:06,160 --> 03:05:09,560
Speaker 1: to this, I think, like with the point about conflict mediation,

3102
03:05:09,600 --> 03:05:11,680
Speaker 1: I just want to make that like super clear. Just

3103
03:05:11,720 --> 03:05:13,360
Speaker 1: because we're not going to spend half a day trying

3104
03:05:13,400 --> 03:05:16,119
Speaker 1: to come up with community with the points of unity

3105
03:05:16,360 --> 03:05:18,400
Speaker 1: does not mean we don't have expectations about how you

3106
03:05:18,480 --> 03:05:21,600
Speaker 1: act in this space. So our plan is basically to say, like,

3107
03:05:21,760 --> 03:05:25,640
Speaker 1: don't be an asshole. And then that means you know,

3108
03:05:25,879 --> 03:05:28,360
Speaker 1: like in all the ways that we know, uh that

3109
03:05:28,480 --> 03:05:30,960
Speaker 1: those things can happen. And then if somebody accidentally is

3110
03:05:31,000 --> 03:05:34,600
Speaker 1: being an asshole, where somebody's are accidentally being an asshole

3111
03:05:34,760 --> 03:05:36,920
Speaker 1: like that, those are things we can we can manage

3112
03:05:36,920 --> 03:05:39,640
Speaker 1: because we all know what it is that we're doing here. Um,

3113
03:05:39,959 --> 03:05:41,600
Speaker 1: So it's definitely not a free for all you know

3114
03:05:41,760 --> 03:05:44,280
Speaker 1: it's a this is a space where the normal things

3115
03:05:44,360 --> 03:05:54,560
Speaker 1: we would expect in space are expected, you know, explicitly. Yeah.

3116
03:05:54,720 --> 03:06:01,480
Speaker 1: Oh well man, I'm excited. Yeah, I'm looking forward to people.

3117
03:06:02,000 --> 03:06:06,320
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't actually know how widespread bonfires

3118
03:06:06,360 --> 03:06:09,360
Speaker 1: are in the US, but we do a lot in

3119
03:06:09,360 --> 03:06:12,360
Speaker 1: the Midwest and bonfires are a great time. I'm excited

3120
03:06:12,400 --> 03:06:16,400
Speaker 1: people to experience that. It's it's good. Um. Yes, so

3121
03:06:16,520 --> 03:06:19,880
Speaker 1: I guess, um do you you if anything closing that

3122
03:06:19,959 --> 03:06:22,080
Speaker 1: you want to say? And also where can people find

3123
03:06:22,240 --> 03:06:26,240
Speaker 1: this and attempt to go to it? Also when is

3124
03:06:26,280 --> 03:06:30,880
Speaker 1: it happening, because that's another important It's going to be

3125
03:06:31,000 --> 03:06:38,360
Speaker 1: July UH twenty nine one UM, and attendance is free,

3126
03:06:38,480 --> 03:06:42,280
Speaker 1: there's no there's no charge, but we are soliciting donations.

3127
03:06:42,360 --> 03:06:46,520
Speaker 1: So we're doing a fundraiser UM through Open Collectives UM

3128
03:06:46,640 --> 03:06:51,400
Speaker 1: and we spend very generously given UH an offer of

3129
03:06:51,520 --> 03:06:55,920
Speaker 1: matching donations from one of the organizers who got like

3130
03:06:56,040 --> 03:06:58,039
Speaker 1: I got a little bit of a chunk of change

3131
03:06:58,120 --> 03:06:59,720
Speaker 1: to kind of contribute to that sort of thing. We're

3132
03:06:59,800 --> 03:07:04,480
Speaker 1: very I'm excited about that. So if you go on

3133
03:07:04,800 --> 03:07:10,360
Speaker 1: to you can follow us on Twitter, and I believe

3134
03:07:10,400 --> 03:07:17,480
Speaker 1: that's at Dual Power. Uh to let me tell the chat.

3135
03:07:17,560 --> 03:07:20,640
Speaker 1: I think it's at Dual Power. Gathering is our Twitter

3136
03:07:21,440 --> 03:07:29,160
Speaker 1: and um the website is dual dual power dot org. Yes, yeah,

3137
03:07:29,760 --> 03:07:32,600
Speaker 1: um yeah. If you go on the website, you'll find

3138
03:07:32,640 --> 03:07:34,920
Speaker 1: the links to everything you need to know. You can

3139
03:07:34,959 --> 03:07:37,800
Speaker 1: get in touch with us. You can like, you know,

3140
03:07:37,959 --> 03:07:40,400
Speaker 1: give us your your feedback, if you love it, if

3141
03:07:40,440 --> 03:07:43,560
Speaker 1: you hate it, if you've you know whatever. We're We're

3142
03:07:43,560 --> 03:07:45,280
Speaker 1: probably not going to change the whole thing right now,

3143
03:07:45,440 --> 03:07:47,280
Speaker 1: but show up and we can change it at the time.

3144
03:07:49,640 --> 03:07:52,400
Speaker 1: I'll also say we do have like an organizing discord

3145
03:07:52,600 --> 03:07:55,800
Speaker 1: and people who are like serious about like getting involved

3146
03:07:55,840 --> 03:07:58,680
Speaker 1: in want to have things like I want to come

3147
03:07:58,720 --> 03:08:01,920
Speaker 1: to this and with things that they have specific visions

3148
03:08:01,959 --> 03:08:04,800
Speaker 1: for now. It's like absolutely time to get engaged with

3149
03:08:04,879 --> 03:08:09,800
Speaker 1: that because we're like we're working towards making getting people

3150
03:08:10,560 --> 03:08:13,240
Speaker 1: into the like who are the participants to really own

3151
03:08:13,320 --> 03:08:18,080
Speaker 1: the event itself, So that'll be like that's something we have.

3152
03:08:18,720 --> 03:08:21,280
Speaker 1: I believe We're gonna probably two more community calls wanted

3153
03:08:21,920 --> 03:08:24,360
Speaker 1: June and one in July. Every one of those calls

3154
03:08:24,440 --> 03:08:27,960
Speaker 1: has been really amazing, lots of great people, um, and

3155
03:08:28,959 --> 03:08:31,200
Speaker 1: during those calls are gonna be doing some training on

3156
03:08:31,800 --> 03:08:33,640
Speaker 1: because you've got to do some prep work when you're

3157
03:08:33,680 --> 03:08:37,720
Speaker 1: doing this kind of like generative discussion like popular education,

3158
03:08:38,320 --> 03:08:43,200
Speaker 1: like unconfidence style. UM events like coming to them with

3159
03:08:43,280 --> 03:08:45,280
Speaker 1: a little bit of un understanding of what that looks

3160
03:08:45,360 --> 03:08:51,040
Speaker 1: like is really key to being successful. So um, we

3161
03:08:51,200 --> 03:08:53,360
Speaker 1: encourage people who want to come get signed up, and

3162
03:08:53,440 --> 03:08:55,640
Speaker 1: then we'll get into our mailing list, and our mailing

3163
03:08:55,680 --> 03:08:59,119
Speaker 1: lists is where we disseminate like when those calls are happening,

3164
03:08:59,720 --> 03:09:04,320
Speaker 1: and also pomping our discord as long as you're cool

3165
03:09:04,440 --> 03:09:07,280
Speaker 1: and agree your community very manol like bring you in

3166
03:09:07,480 --> 03:09:10,120
Speaker 1: and get all sorts of shipped together. We're very excited

3167
03:09:10,200 --> 03:09:15,760
Speaker 1: for people. There's still a third number of thoughts open

3168
03:09:16,000 --> 03:09:19,000
Speaker 1: for the events itself, were like almost half way full.

3169
03:09:19,240 --> 03:09:22,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean definitely, we're We've been trying to

3170
03:09:22,840 --> 03:09:24,640
Speaker 1: think about this as an event that we would want

3171
03:09:24,680 --> 03:09:26,320
Speaker 1: to go to, and we wanted to be an event

3172
03:09:26,360 --> 03:09:28,520
Speaker 1: that you want to come to also, so help us

3173
03:09:28,560 --> 03:09:33,480
Speaker 1: make it. So yeah, yeah, that's that's yeah, this is

3174
03:09:33,520 --> 03:09:38,320
Speaker 1: really exciting. I'm god be going to it. Yeah. So yeah,

3175
03:09:38,440 --> 03:09:39,840
Speaker 1: thank thank thank you, thank you to you both for

3176
03:09:40,120 --> 03:09:42,240
Speaker 1: joining us, for talking about this, and I'm excited too.

3177
03:09:42,360 --> 03:09:46,080
Speaker 1: I'm excited to see lots of people there. Hey, hey,

3178
03:09:46,360 --> 03:09:48,080
Speaker 1: I mean we've all been wanting to see each other

3179
03:09:48,320 --> 03:09:52,880
Speaker 1: for two and a half years, right, So I miss you.

3180
03:09:53,320 --> 03:09:59,800
Speaker 1: I missing your face with dimension. Yea, I'm sick of

3181
03:09:59,840 --> 03:10:06,560
Speaker 1: you're flat face. Yeah, thanks so much for having us

3182
03:10:06,600 --> 03:10:09,560
Speaker 1: on to talk about it. Really looking forward to it.

3183
03:10:11,560 --> 03:10:13,640
Speaker 1: I mean, we're getting closer and closer. It's just like

3184
03:10:13,800 --> 03:10:17,080
Speaker 1: it just gets more exciting and also a little nerve wracking.

3185
03:10:17,200 --> 03:10:19,120
Speaker 1: But thankfully a lot of people have been stepping up

3186
03:10:19,160 --> 03:10:21,520
Speaker 1: on a very I'm confident that's gonna be really like

3187
03:10:22,280 --> 03:10:24,840
Speaker 1: a really great thing. Yeah, and we will we we

3188
03:10:24,879 --> 03:10:28,880
Speaker 1: will have links to everything in the show notes. Um. Yeah,

3189
03:10:29,080 --> 03:10:30,720
Speaker 1: this has just make it happen here. You can find

3190
03:10:30,840 --> 03:10:36,920
Speaker 1: us in the usual places happen to your pot and stuff. Alright, goodbye,

3191
03:10:37,000 --> 03:10:44,680
Speaker 1: have fun. Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes

3192
03:10:44,879 --> 03:10:47,320
Speaker 1: every week from now until the heat death of the universe.

3193
03:10:47,920 --> 03:10:50,279
Speaker 1: It could happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3194
03:10:50,520 --> 03:10:53,160
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3195
03:10:53,200 --> 03:10:55,320
Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on

3196
03:10:55,400 --> 03:10:57,880
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

3197
03:10:57,959 --> 03:11:00,600
Speaker 1: listen to podcasts, you can find sore Sayspher It could

3198
03:11:00,640 --> 03:11:03,520
Speaker 1: happen here, Updated monthly at cool Zone Media dot com

3199
03:11:03,640 --> 03:11:05,480
Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.