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Speaker 1: School of Humans on November thirtieth, nineteen sixty three, just

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Speaker 1: eight days after President John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, Texas.

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Speaker 1: Across the country, in Los Angeles, friends of a twenty

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Speaker 1: three year old actress named Karen Kupsine were getting concerned.

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Speaker 1: Mark Goddard and his wife Marcia had not heard from

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Speaker 1: Karen since Wednesday, November twenty seventh, the night before Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 1: On that night, Karen came to dinner at their house

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Speaker 1: on Coldwater Canyon Drive in Beverly Hills. Karen had been

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Speaker 1: depressed lately. Her relationship with her actor boyfriend Andrew Prine

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Speaker 1: was more off again than on again, and on top

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Speaker 1: of that, she was dealing with all the pressures of

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Speaker 1: trying to make it on her own in Hollywood. She

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Speaker 1: was supposed to get to their house to eat at

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Speaker 1: six thirty, but arrived an hour late. She got there

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Speaker 1: at seven thirty. When she did get to their house,

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Speaker 1: she was acting strangely. They later told police. She barely

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Speaker 1: touched her food and was acting like she was under

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Speaker 1: the influence. Marcia told police that Karen's quote lips seemed numb,

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Speaker 1: her voice was funny, she moved her head at odd

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Speaker 1: angles end quote. Karen didn't eat much that night, but

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Speaker 1: she told Mark and Marcia a very strange story. She

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Speaker 1: said there had been a baby left on her doorstep

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Speaker 1: earlier that day. She said she had to call the

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Speaker 1: police and that they came and took the baby away.

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Speaker 1: Karen seemed pretty distraught by this, and Mark and Marcia

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Speaker 1: weren't quite sure what was going on with her, but

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Speaker 1: they knew that she had been having a lot of

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Speaker 1: issues lately. Karen was always worried about her weight, she

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Speaker 1: had been addicted to diet pills, and she'd been dealing

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Speaker 1: with the loss of this relationship. They put her in

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Speaker 1: a taxi at eight thirty pm that night. Marcia asked

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Speaker 1: Karen to call when she got home, but Karen never did.

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Speaker 1: They didn't hear from her. They weren't overly concerned at first.

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Speaker 1: They figured she probably went home and got so much

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Speaker 1: needed sleep. But by the thirtieth and this is the

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Speaker 1: way that Mark Goddard talked about it on the E

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Speaker 1: Hollywood story that was done later about this case. He

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Speaker 1: said they were going through their morning routine, he was shaving.

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Speaker 1: He and Marcia started to chat and they said, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're concerned. We haven't heard from Karen in a couple days,

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Speaker 1: so by that evening they decided to take a drive

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Speaker 1: to Karen's apartment in West Hollywood, located at twelve twenty

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Speaker 1: seven and a half North Sweetsir Avenue. Mark Goddard told

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Speaker 1: the show they drove up and parked. He said he

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Speaker 1: went to the door alone and saw that it was

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Speaker 1: open and started to get kind of a funny feeling,

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Speaker 1: so he went back to the car and asked Marcia

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Speaker 1: to come inside with him. The door is unlocked, so

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Speaker 1: they opened it and walked into Karen's living room. It

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Speaker 1: was dark. They saw her lying on the couch, face down,

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Speaker 1: with the TV playing at low volume. There was a

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Speaker 1: glass container that had spilled a lot of cigarettes out

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Speaker 1: onto the floor. Marcia approached Karen. Karen was naked, and

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Speaker 1: at first Marcia thought maybe she was just passed out,

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Speaker 1: but when she touched her and rolled Karen over, she

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Speaker 1: could see immediately Karen had been dead for quite some time.

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Speaker 1: They started screaming for help, and pretty soon Karen's West

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Speaker 1: Hollywood apartment was a crime scene. At first, everyone thought

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Speaker 1: Karen must have died from an accidental overdose or maybe

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Speaker 1: even taken her own life. They found Karen's diary entries,

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Speaker 1: some of which were seriously disturbing, but the autopsy concluded

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Speaker 1: this had been a homicide, that Karen had been strangled.

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Speaker 1: Cause of death was manual strangulation. Manner of death homicide.

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Speaker 1: What happened after hours in that West Hollywood apartment. I

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Speaker 1: lived in Los Angeles for several years near where Karen lived,

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Speaker 1: and this is one of those old Hollywood cases that

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Speaker 1: has always fascinated me. It has so many elements. There's

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Speaker 1: a broken relationship, stalking, Hollywood glamour, and even a suggested

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Speaker 1: connection to the assassination of JFK. But really, after you

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Speaker 1: get through the conspiracy theories and all of the Hollywood stuff,

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Speaker 1: at heart, it's really a story about a young woman,

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Speaker 1: a young woman who went out to Hollywood in search

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Speaker 1: of her dreams, and this was how it ended. I'm

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Speaker 1: Catherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. Over the

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Speaker 1: past five years of making my true crime podcast, Helen Gone,

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Speaker 1: I have learned that there is no such thing as

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Speaker 1: a small town where murder never happens. I have received

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Speaker 1: hundreds of messages from people all around the country asking

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Speaker 1: for help with an unsolved murder that's affected them, their families,

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Speaker 1: and their communities. If you have a case you'd like

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Speaker 1: me and my team to look into, you can reach

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Speaker 1: out to us at our Helen Gone Murder line at

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Speaker 1: six seven eight seven four four six ' one four five.

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Speaker 1: That's six seven eight seven four four six one four five.

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Speaker 1: This is Helen Gone Line. After Mark and his wife

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Speaker 1: found Karen's body, the police came to the address in

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Speaker 1: West Hollywood and started processing the crime scene. They called

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Speaker 1: Karen's parents immediately. They knew this would be big news

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Speaker 1: because Karen's parents were power or Karen cupson It was

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Speaker 1: born and raised in Chicago. She grew up there, the

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Speaker 1: daughter of Essi and IRV Cupsonate. Her father, Irv was

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Speaker 1: a legendary gossip columnist for the Chicago Sun Times and

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Speaker 1: Again for people who grew up later and might not

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Speaker 1: realize this, gossip columns had so much power. Back in

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Speaker 1: the day. There was no social media, no influencers. Hollywood

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Speaker 1: figures still had a lot of mystery, so one of

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Speaker 1: the only ways to get access to them was by

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Speaker 1: reading about them in the gossip columns. IRV Cupsonate was

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Speaker 1: known as a friendly columnist. Celebrities and their publicists loved

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Speaker 1: IRV because he could get their clients a lot of

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Speaker 1: favorable coverage, favorable mentions, and what they called back then,

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Speaker 1: a lot of columnages, meaning a lot of press. For

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Speaker 1: those of you out there who do read those columns,

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Speaker 1: IRV reminds me a little bit of columnists like Liz

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Speaker 1: Smith in New York City who wrote for The Post.

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Speaker 1: IRV was old school. He had lots of access to

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Speaker 1: old Hollywood celebrities loved him. People like Joan Crawford and

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Speaker 1: Don Rickles would come for dinner parties in their Chicago apartment.

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Speaker 1: So Karen grew up in this environment, seeing all the

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Speaker 1: glamour of Hollywood. This job gave IRV access to a

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Speaker 1: lot of Chicago's elite, including reportedly some people who had

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Speaker 1: connections to the Mob, which we'll get into a little

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Speaker 1: bit later. So Karen decided at a very young age

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Speaker 1: that she wanted to be an actress. Really, what she

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Speaker 1: meant was she wanted to be a star, and Karen

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Speaker 1: was talented. Her mom Essie, encouraged her to act and

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Speaker 1: pushed her to do commercials and school plays. At the

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Speaker 1: age of thirteen, Karen got a role as understudy to

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Speaker 1: the lead actress in a play called Anniversary Waltz. Karen

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Speaker 1: moved to New York in nineteen fifty nine and tried

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Speaker 1: to get some roles on Broadway, but it was hard.

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Speaker 1: She was nineteen. She was auditioning a lot, and she

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Speaker 1: wrote in her diary later that she felt like because

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Speaker 1: of her last name, producers were just humoring her and

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Speaker 1: being polite. She felt like she wasn't getting there, she

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Speaker 1: wasn't achieving her dreams on her own merit, and that

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Speaker 1: really depressed her, and that's when she started to develop

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Speaker 1: this obsession with her way. She developed a pretty serious

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Speaker 1: eating disorder. And back then, I don't want to sound cold,

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Speaker 1: but there was just not as much information around as

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Speaker 1: there is now. According to a lot of people at

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Speaker 1: the time, if you wanted to be skinny and work

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Speaker 1: and be an actress, that was just kind of the

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Speaker 1: cost of doing business. You had to be skinny. So

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Speaker 1: when there were things like diet pill abuse, a lot

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Speaker 1: of casting directors and even friends and family tended to

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Speaker 1: look the other way. Karen gave herself a stage name,

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Speaker 1: Lynn Rogers, but eventually she went back to Cups. In it,

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Speaker 1: she became Karen cupson it, and Karen finally got a break.

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Speaker 1: Jerry Lee Lewis gave her a part in his movie

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Speaker 1: The Ladies Man. Karen moved to Los Angeles, but she

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Speaker 1: found that Hollywood was even more difficult than Broadway. Now,

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Speaker 1: one of the things I'm always interested in when I

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Speaker 1: look into a case like this. Obviously, it's been covered

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Speaker 1: a lot before, and I've talked a lot about how

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Speaker 1: shows like Dateline tend to just give the synopsis of

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Speaker 1: the case when there's a lot more going on behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes. It's the same with the e Hollywood story

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Speaker 1: on this case. In my opinion, the show was pretty thorough.

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Speaker 1: It had interviews with Andrew Prine and with Karen's parents,

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Speaker 1: But I started thinking to myself, I bet you in

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Speaker 1: exchange for that cooperation, this is going to be a

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Speaker 1: pretty sanitized and edited version of what happened to Karen, which,

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Speaker 1: from what I read later, it was Karen did have

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Speaker 1: some support in Hollywood. She was living with her grandmother,

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Speaker 1: but she was not happy with her looks. She got

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Speaker 1: plastic surgery on her chin and later had a nose job,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes she would get a boost, like when one

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Speaker 1: of Elizabeth Taylor's ex husband's Eddie Fisher, told her she

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Speaker 1: was pretty. She wrote in her diary that she was

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Speaker 1: just thrilled. Finally she felt pretty, but her emotional state

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Speaker 1: seemed to be completely ruled by what men thought of

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Speaker 1: her looks. Karen was getting parts in TV series, but

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Speaker 1: she kept taking more and more pills, so many, according

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Speaker 1: to her mother, she kept them hidden in a laundry hamper.

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Speaker 1: Her friends back this up. They said if she gained

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Speaker 1: even one or two pounds, she would start taking more

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Speaker 1: and more diet pills. Back then, these pills were basically

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Speaker 1: like speed and they were very addictive. Karen kept diaries

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Speaker 1: of her weight. She yo yoed from around one hundred

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Speaker 1: and seventeen to just over one hundred and thirty pounds,

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Speaker 1: still very small for her height, which was around five

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Speaker 1: six and the fact that this made her feel so

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Speaker 1: ugly is what makes these diary entries so heartbreaking. Nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty three was a year of pretty big change for Karen.

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Speaker 1: She had been working on a TV show when it

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Speaker 1: was canceled. Her grandmother found out about the pills she'd

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Speaker 1: been taking and moved out. Now Karen was on her own,

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Speaker 1: she moved into her own place, the apartment on North Sweetzer.

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Speaker 1: She got a theater role. She was playing Annie Sullivan

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Speaker 1: in The Miracle Worker, the Helen Keller story in a

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Speaker 1: local theater, and she got a bit part on the

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Speaker 1: TV series Perry Mason. She also started dating a twenty

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Speaker 1: seven year old actor named Andrew Prine. He was handsome

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Speaker 1: and at first she was totally smitten, but from what

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Speaker 1: her friend said, as well as her diary entries, it

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Speaker 1: soon became very clear she was way more into the

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Speaker 1: relationship than he was. She wanted to be exclusive, she

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Speaker 1: was in love with him. He made it very clear

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Speaker 1: that for him she was just an option. He was

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Speaker 1: dating other women. He was very much a ladies man

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Speaker 1: and he didn't want to change. This made Karen very distraught.

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Speaker 1: When he would date other women. She would really obsess

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Speaker 1: over it. She would go to the same parties he

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Speaker 1: was at and watch him with these women and then

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Speaker 1: just get extremely upset, and it would send her into

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Speaker 1: this downward spiral. In summer of nineteen sixty three, she

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Speaker 1: got pregnant with Andrew's baby. Mark Goddard and his wife

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Speaker 1: ended up taking Karen down to Tijuana, Mexico to get

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Speaker 1: an illegal abortion. This was very traumatic for Karen. Afterwards,

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Speaker 1: she wrote in her diary that Andrew was nice to her,

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Speaker 1: gave her soup, took care of her, but then pretty

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Speaker 1: soon he was back to his old ways. He was

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Speaker 1: going out with other women. Back to the crime scene. Now, naturally,

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Speaker 1: as police are looking around, they are finding out about

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Speaker 1: this history with Andrew. They want to talk to Andrew,

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Speaker 1: but there are signs there may have been other people

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Speaker 1: in Karen's apartment as well. According to the medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: Karen had been dead for a couple of days, probably

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Speaker 1: since a late Wednesday night or early Thursday morning. This

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Speaker 1: was also backed up by the fact that Mark and

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Speaker 1: Marsha found newspapers and magazines that had built up outside

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Speaker 1: Karen's door. In the living room, police noticed a coke

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Speaker 1: closet door was open in the northeast corner of the

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Speaker 1: living room. Drawers in the bedroom were open, things were

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Speaker 1: thrown around. It was a mess in there. The bed

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00:12:56,525 --> 00:13:01,205
Speaker 1: covers were rumpled and twin beds were shoved together. Outside

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Speaker 1: the bedroom, there was a pair of women's shoes and

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Speaker 1: a teddy bear. Karen's red bathroom was on an overstuffed

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Speaker 1: chair on the east side of the living room. There

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Speaker 1: was a lot of expensive stuff in the closet, including

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Speaker 1: Karen's mink s dole. None of it had been touched,

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Speaker 1: so the motive did not appear to be robbery. There

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Speaker 1: was also a coffee pot on the floor. Things were

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Speaker 1: really thrown around in the living room and in the bedroom.

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Speaker 1: The only neat area was the bathroom. They found a

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Speaker 1: lot of prescription drugs, according to the police report. They

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Speaker 1: found thirteen bottles of pills, including Desoxen, a diet pill,

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Speaker 1: and there were a lot of them. They also found

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Speaker 1: something called Milltown, which apparently she mentioned to Mark and

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Speaker 1: marshas she had taken the night she had dinner with them. Now,

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Speaker 1: I had never heard of Milltown, but actually it has

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Speaker 1: an interesting history. It's a tranquilizer that became a big

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Speaker 1: drug in Hollywood because it relaxed you without knocking you out.

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Speaker 1: It was a relaxer rather than a sedative. According to

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Speaker 1: a report by the CBC, by nineteen fifty six, one

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Speaker 1: in twenty Americans had tried Milltown drugs like took over

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00:14:06,325 --> 00:14:11,085
Speaker 1: later and Milltown kind of faded away. They found something else,

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00:14:11,605 --> 00:14:14,765
Speaker 1: three coffee cups and an empty cake box with a

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Speaker 1: serving knife on top of it, so it looked like

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Speaker 1: Karen had been entertaining shortly before she died. So who

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Speaker 1: was she having coffee with so much later? And this

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00:14:26,005 --> 00:14:28,005
Speaker 1: story is one of those that's a little bit stranger

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00:14:28,005 --> 00:14:30,925
Speaker 1: than fiction, and it is a real Hollywood story. The

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00:14:30,965 --> 00:14:35,005
Speaker 1: author James Elroy actually became involved in the case. He

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00:14:35,125 --> 00:14:38,445
Speaker 1: started working with Karen's niece. He wrote about the case

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Speaker 1: in his book which was published in the late nineties

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Speaker 1: called Crime Wave. And in that book, James Elroy pointed

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Speaker 1: out detectives found a book open in Karen's living room.

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Speaker 1: It was open to a page that talked about dancing

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Speaker 1: in the nude and how that helped you lose your inhibitions. Now,

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Speaker 1: according to James Elroy, even early in the investigation, some

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Speaker 1: of the detectives weren't completely convinced this was a murder.

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Speaker 1: They thought she might have had some kind of accident.

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00:15:04,925 --> 00:15:08,405
Speaker 1: The con Harold Cade, who did the examination and who

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00:15:08,445 --> 00:15:11,605
Speaker 1: stated the manner of death was manual strangulation, based that

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Speaker 1: largely on the fact that Karen's hyoid bone was broken.

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Speaker 1: But there were some limitations to the forensics, especially back then,

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00:15:20,525 --> 00:15:22,725
Speaker 1: her face was too decomposed to see if there were

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Speaker 1: any other signs of trauma, and apparently they did not

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00:15:27,125 --> 00:15:29,725
Speaker 1: test for the prescription drugs that were in Karen's system

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Speaker 1: to see how much was there. On the other hand,

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00:15:33,205 --> 00:15:36,005
Speaker 1: if this had been some kind of attempted suicide, there

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00:15:36,125 --> 00:15:39,205
Speaker 1: wasn't an obvious pill that would have caused that. Most

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00:15:39,285 --> 00:15:42,805
Speaker 1: of the pills from her Milltown prescription were still in

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00:15:42,845 --> 00:15:46,165
Speaker 1: the bottle, and the diet pills she was taking she

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00:15:46,285 --> 00:15:48,925
Speaker 1: had an extreme tolerance to that drug. She had been

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Speaker 1: taking it for a while. The headlines read stranger killed

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Speaker 1: actress on coast. They found Karen's diary in that living room. Later.

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Speaker 1: Karen's niece would share portions of this diary with James Elroy.

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Speaker 1: The entries are heartbreaking. Karen wrote, quote, I'm not good.

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Speaker 1: I'm really not that pretty. My figure's fat and will

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Speaker 1: never be the way my mother wants it. I won't

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Speaker 1: let it be what she wants. How stupid I want

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Speaker 1: to be slim? Why must I be so alone? Have

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00:16:19,205 --> 00:16:21,805
Speaker 1: I fallen that short of my ideal? Why does my

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00:16:21,885 --> 00:16:24,125
Speaker 1: image of me have to be so esthetic and perfect?

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Speaker 1: What's the use of living with nothing to believe? To

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00:16:26,965 --> 00:16:29,925
Speaker 1: have faith in? Where's the security or habit or order.

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Speaker 1: What good is that going to do? My Andy? What

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00:16:34,285 --> 00:16:37,365
Speaker 1: happens to me or my Andy? Why doesn't he want me?

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00:16:37,885 --> 00:16:41,405
Speaker 1: End quote now. Of course police wanted to talk to

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Speaker 1: Andrew Prine. He and Karen had obviously had a volatile relationship.

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00:16:48,485 --> 00:16:50,925
Speaker 1: Andrews said the last time he saw Karen was the

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00:16:50,925 --> 00:16:53,765
Speaker 1: weekend before she died. He said that they had gone

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00:16:53,805 --> 00:16:56,125
Speaker 1: with some friends to Palm Springs and had a good time.

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00:16:57,165 --> 00:16:59,405
Speaker 1: The last time he saw her was when he dropped

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00:16:59,405 --> 00:17:02,085
Speaker 1: her off after they got back to la He said

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00:17:02,085 --> 00:17:04,405
Speaker 1: that he did talk to Karen on Wednesday night, the

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00:17:04,525 --> 00:17:06,605
Speaker 1: night she had dinner with a god Dards. He said

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00:17:06,645 --> 00:17:09,005
Speaker 1: they talked on the phone at about six pm. That

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00:17:09,125 --> 00:17:11,245
Speaker 1: he had taken an actress on a date after that

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Speaker 1: to see the movie a street car named Desire. He

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00:17:13,645 --> 00:17:16,605
Speaker 1: said he dropped his date off and went home. Then.

295
00:17:16,845 --> 00:17:20,965
Speaker 1: Andrews said he called Karen sometime between around eleven thirty

296
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Speaker 1: and midnight. At that time, Andrews said Karen told him

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Speaker 1: the same story she told the Goddards, the weird story

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Speaker 1: about the baby. She said police had come and taken

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00:17:29,885 --> 00:17:33,605
Speaker 1: the baby away. Police were later able to confirm that

300
00:17:33,645 --> 00:17:36,845
Speaker 1: this story was not true. It was something that Karen

301
00:17:36,845 --> 00:17:39,125
Speaker 1: had made up. There was no baby, there was no

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00:17:39,205 --> 00:17:41,445
Speaker 1: report of a baby. It was just something that she

303
00:17:41,565 --> 00:17:46,485
Speaker 1: invented and no one really knows why. Police also tracked

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00:17:46,485 --> 00:17:48,965
Speaker 1: down the two men who said they were the ones

305
00:17:49,005 --> 00:17:51,165
Speaker 1: who had been at Karen's house having coffee and cake

306
00:17:51,205 --> 00:17:54,365
Speaker 1: that night. They were a twenty two year old freelance

307
00:17:54,405 --> 00:17:58,565
Speaker 1: writer named Edward Stephen Rubin and another actor friend of Karen's,

308
00:17:58,685 --> 00:18:03,565
Speaker 1: Robert Hathaway. So the story Edward Ruben told police was

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Speaker 1: that he walked to Karen's house and got there at

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00:18:06,005 --> 00:18:08,365
Speaker 1: around eight thirty. This would have been when she was

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00:18:08,405 --> 00:18:10,765
Speaker 1: just getting home from the Goddards. He said they hung

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00:18:10,805 --> 00:18:13,405
Speaker 1: out for a while and talked, and eventually Karen got

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Speaker 1: kind of antsy, so around nine thirty pm she went

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Speaker 1: out for a short walk. While she was out, she

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00:18:19,045 --> 00:18:21,485
Speaker 1: ran into Robert Hathaway and brought him back up to

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00:18:21,525 --> 00:18:24,405
Speaker 1: the apartment. At that point, Edward said all three of

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00:18:24,445 --> 00:18:27,045
Speaker 1: them had cake and coffee, which would explain the cups

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00:18:27,045 --> 00:18:30,325
Speaker 1: and serving knife and the empty cake plate. Edward said

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00:18:30,405 --> 00:18:32,485
Speaker 1: that at some point Karen fell asleep on the couch

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00:18:32,525 --> 00:18:35,845
Speaker 1: while watching TV. He said eventually she got up and

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00:18:35,885 --> 00:18:38,445
Speaker 1: went into her bedroom. He said he followed her back

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00:18:38,485 --> 00:18:41,045
Speaker 1: there and watched her get into bed. Then he said

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00:18:41,045 --> 00:18:43,285
Speaker 1: he went back in the living room. He and Robert

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00:18:43,405 --> 00:18:46,245
Speaker 1: kept talking and at around eleven to fifteen pm, after

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00:18:46,285 --> 00:18:50,445
Speaker 1: the Danny Kay show, they left. Now, they both told

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00:18:50,485 --> 00:18:53,525
Speaker 1: police that after they left, they made sure the door

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00:18:53,605 --> 00:18:57,325
Speaker 1: was locked behind them. Another strange part of the story

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00:18:57,405 --> 00:19:01,365
Speaker 1: is that all three of these guys, Edward, Robert, and

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00:19:01,365 --> 00:19:05,165
Speaker 1: Andrew Prine knew each other. Andrew Prine had been these

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00:19:05,205 --> 00:19:08,125
Speaker 1: guys next door neighbor in Beverly Hills, and he still

331
00:19:08,245 --> 00:19:12,325
Speaker 1: lived right next to Edward Ruben. So they said after

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00:19:12,365 --> 00:19:15,205
Speaker 1: they got home, Andrew Prime came over and they all

333
00:19:15,285 --> 00:19:18,405
Speaker 1: hung out and talked until pretty late after three am.

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00:19:18,565 --> 00:19:21,805
Speaker 1: Apparently this wasn't uncommon because at the time, they told police,

335
00:19:21,885 --> 00:19:25,285
Speaker 1: Andrew came over and hung out a lot. Police asked

336
00:19:25,285 --> 00:19:27,925
Speaker 1: both of them about their relationship with Karen. They said

337
00:19:27,925 --> 00:19:30,085
Speaker 1: they never hit on Karen, never hooked up with Karen,

338
00:19:30,125 --> 00:19:34,325
Speaker 1: they were just friends. Now, there were some contradictions in

339
00:19:34,365 --> 00:19:38,005
Speaker 1: these guys statements because Edward Reuben's story was different from

340
00:19:38,005 --> 00:19:42,605
Speaker 1: what Andrew told police. Remember, Andrew had told police that

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00:19:42,645 --> 00:19:46,005
Speaker 1: he took an actress on a date on Wednesday night,

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00:19:46,125 --> 00:19:49,445
Speaker 1: and then he said he went straight home and called Karen. Meanwhile,

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00:19:49,565 --> 00:19:53,525
Speaker 1: Edward Rubin says Andrew came over to his house. He

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00:19:53,565 --> 00:19:55,245
Speaker 1: said he'd talked to him till late at night, and

345
00:19:55,285 --> 00:19:57,165
Speaker 1: he also said Andrew had told him he went to

346
00:19:57,205 --> 00:20:00,085
Speaker 1: the rodeo that night and stopped by another bar. So

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00:20:00,245 --> 00:20:03,205
Speaker 1: when police confronted Edward Rubin about this, he said he

348
00:20:03,245 --> 00:20:05,445
Speaker 1: might have had his dates wrong. It might have been

349
00:20:05,485 --> 00:20:08,605
Speaker 1: and Tuesday night when Andrew came over to talk to them.

350
00:20:09,085 --> 00:20:11,925
Speaker 1: Andrew confirmed this. He said it had been Tuesday when

351
00:20:11,965 --> 00:20:14,365
Speaker 1: he went over to spend time with those guys. And

352
00:20:14,725 --> 00:20:17,685
Speaker 1: police also contacted the actress whom Andrew had taken out

353
00:20:17,685 --> 00:20:21,085
Speaker 1: on Wednesday, and she backed up his story as well.

354
00:20:21,205 --> 00:20:24,845
Speaker 1: So now the police were kind of stuck. They had

355
00:20:24,885 --> 00:20:28,125
Speaker 1: a few inconsistencies in these guys' stories, but they did

356
00:20:28,165 --> 00:20:30,885
Speaker 1: seem to have alibis and there was no clear motive.

357
00:20:31,445 --> 00:20:34,205
Speaker 1: Police also figured out Karen did have a criminal record.

358
00:20:34,525 --> 00:20:36,885
Speaker 1: She had been arrested for shoplifting at one point and

359
00:20:36,925 --> 00:20:41,125
Speaker 1: got probation and fines. The police were also canvassing nearby buildings.

360
00:20:41,925 --> 00:20:44,485
Speaker 1: No one had heard any screams or anything else. That

361
00:20:44,525 --> 00:20:47,565
Speaker 1: was out of the ordinary. Then they talked to Karen's

362
00:20:47,605 --> 00:20:51,565
Speaker 1: downstairs neighbor, a guy named David Lang. Now this is

363
00:20:51,605 --> 00:20:54,485
Speaker 1: where things get a little strange, because a woman told

364
00:20:54,565 --> 00:20:58,965
Speaker 1: police that David Lange had told her that on Friday,

365
00:20:59,045 --> 00:21:01,565
Speaker 1: which would have been November twenty ninth, the day before

366
00:21:01,645 --> 00:21:04,605
Speaker 1: Karen's body was discovered, he went up to her apartment

367
00:21:04,645 --> 00:21:07,445
Speaker 1: after midnight. He said, he turned the door knob and

368
00:21:07,605 --> 00:21:12,005
Speaker 1: the door was unlocked, but he didn't go in. David,

369
00:21:12,045 --> 00:21:14,525
Speaker 1: who was a twenty seven year old TV writer, apparently

370
00:21:14,605 --> 00:21:16,725
Speaker 1: had a little bit of a reputation around the building.

371
00:21:17,405 --> 00:21:19,365
Speaker 1: Some people said he would get drunk and show up

372
00:21:19,365 --> 00:21:22,925
Speaker 1: in other people's apartments uninvited, so when police heard about this,

373
00:21:23,085 --> 00:21:26,885
Speaker 1: they definitely wanted to talk more to David. This same

374
00:21:27,005 --> 00:21:30,685
Speaker 1: person told police that David had called her and told

375
00:21:30,725 --> 00:21:34,045
Speaker 1: her that he killed Karen. But when police talked to David,

376
00:21:34,485 --> 00:21:36,925
Speaker 1: he claimed he had been just kidding about that comment

377
00:21:37,005 --> 00:21:39,725
Speaker 1: because there was so much press around the case. He

378
00:21:39,845 --> 00:21:41,965
Speaker 1: made a joke, he said about being some kind of

379
00:21:41,965 --> 00:21:44,965
Speaker 1: a strangler. He said he had no issue with Karen

380
00:21:45,045 --> 00:21:46,565
Speaker 1: and that he did not knock on the door on

381
00:21:46,605 --> 00:21:49,845
Speaker 1: Friday night. Police talked to him again. He admitted he

382
00:21:49,965 --> 00:21:52,645
Speaker 1: did try Karen's door on that night at around twelve

383
00:21:52,645 --> 00:21:57,485
Speaker 1: thirty am, but he said he never went in. I

384
00:21:57,525 --> 00:22:00,725
Speaker 1: have a couple questions here because if these two guys,

385
00:22:00,925 --> 00:22:03,645
Speaker 1: Edward and Robert are telling the truth, if they locked

386
00:22:03,645 --> 00:22:06,885
Speaker 1: the door when they left and then lay David tried

387
00:22:06,925 --> 00:22:08,565
Speaker 1: the door and it was unlocked, and we know it

388
00:22:08,565 --> 00:22:10,525
Speaker 1: was unlocked by the time Mark and Marsha got there.

389
00:22:11,045 --> 00:22:13,405
Speaker 1: Did someone else try the door and then Karen let

390
00:22:13,405 --> 00:22:17,725
Speaker 1: them in? There was no sign a forest entry. Could

391
00:22:17,845 --> 00:22:20,605
Speaker 1: one of those guys be lying about the door being locked?

392
00:22:20,605 --> 00:22:24,485
Speaker 1: Did they remember it wrong? Or did Karen let someone

393
00:22:24,485 --> 00:22:28,165
Speaker 1: else in that night? Police asked David Lang about his

394
00:22:28,245 --> 00:22:30,925
Speaker 1: alibi on the night Karen was killed. Of course, again

395
00:22:30,965 --> 00:22:34,645
Speaker 1: this is a Hollywood story. David Lang actually had dinner

396
00:22:34,685 --> 00:22:37,365
Speaker 1: at Natalie Wood's house that night. He said that he

397
00:22:37,445 --> 00:22:39,925
Speaker 1: went home, smoked some pot, and woke up late the

398
00:22:39,965 --> 00:22:44,005
Speaker 1: next morning. David's light detector test had been inconclusive, but

399
00:22:44,085 --> 00:22:47,325
Speaker 1: that wasn't proof, and police didn't really have any physical

400
00:22:47,325 --> 00:22:50,485
Speaker 1: evidence to work with. They were looking at possible motives.

401
00:22:50,885 --> 00:22:54,285
Speaker 1: Could this have been a lover's quarrel between Andrew Prine

402
00:22:54,325 --> 00:22:58,045
Speaker 1: and Karen. They talked to Andrew Prine's ex girlfriends, who

403
00:22:58,125 --> 00:23:00,365
Speaker 1: all said he was a really sweet guy, and he

404
00:23:00,485 --> 00:23:03,245
Speaker 1: told police he had nothing against Karen. He wasn't upset

405
00:23:03,285 --> 00:23:05,725
Speaker 1: with her. He was hoping to stay friends with with her,

406
00:23:05,805 --> 00:23:08,965
Speaker 1: maybe friends with benefits. Why would he kill her? Police

407
00:23:08,965 --> 00:23:11,325
Speaker 1: asked him if he knew of anyone who had a

408
00:23:11,365 --> 00:23:15,885
Speaker 1: problem with Karen, and he said yes. He said someone

409
00:23:15,925 --> 00:23:19,765
Speaker 1: had been stalking him and stalking Karen. He showed the

410
00:23:19,805 --> 00:23:24,045
Speaker 1: police letters he had received. Someone was sending him crazy messages.

411
00:23:24,125 --> 00:23:26,965
Speaker 1: They were cut in paste from different magazines. They looked

412
00:23:26,965 --> 00:23:31,005
Speaker 1: like ransom letters, and the sender wrote things like want

413
00:23:31,005 --> 00:23:35,125
Speaker 1: your hot body, the devil must kill you. Other messages

414
00:23:35,245 --> 00:23:39,565
Speaker 1: were saying that Andrew was going to die. They were scary,

415
00:23:39,605 --> 00:23:42,205
Speaker 1: they were threatening. And Andrew said he also got a

416
00:23:42,245 --> 00:23:44,965
Speaker 1: lot of hang up calls. He said he and Karen

417
00:23:45,005 --> 00:23:49,325
Speaker 1: had been terrified of whoever was sending these letters. Police

418
00:23:49,405 --> 00:23:51,805
Speaker 1: found some of the cut and paste letters in Karen's

419
00:23:51,805 --> 00:23:54,765
Speaker 1: living room, similar to the ones Andrew described. They took

420
00:23:54,805 --> 00:23:58,765
Speaker 1: them in for forensic testing, and when they dusted for Prince,

421
00:23:59,565 --> 00:24:04,125
Speaker 1: they found fingerprints. All of them were Karen's, which meant

422
00:24:04,205 --> 00:24:06,805
Speaker 1: that Karen had been the one sending the letters to

423
00:24:06,885 --> 00:24:11,685
Speaker 1: herself and to Andrew. The whole stalking thing had been

424
00:24:11,725 --> 00:24:16,685
Speaker 1: a lie. Andrew Prine's mind was blown when he found

425
00:24:16,685 --> 00:24:19,765
Speaker 1: out there was no mysterious stalker. Karen had been stalking

426
00:24:19,805 --> 00:24:23,005
Speaker 1: herself and him. There was more evidence of this in

427
00:24:23,085 --> 00:24:25,725
Speaker 1: Karen's diary. She wrote that a few weeks before she

428
00:24:25,805 --> 00:24:28,525
Speaker 1: was found dead, she hid in the bushes at Andrew's

429
00:24:28,525 --> 00:24:31,045
Speaker 1: house and even crawled in through a window and spent

430
00:24:31,165 --> 00:24:34,645
Speaker 1: hours crouched in the dark in his attic. It's worth

431
00:24:34,725 --> 00:24:37,485
Speaker 1: mentioning here. I know that she was having mental issues,

432
00:24:37,485 --> 00:24:40,805
Speaker 1: and I sympathize, but if this were reversed, I feel

433
00:24:40,805 --> 00:24:43,205
Speaker 1: like the police may have taken this a lot more seriously.

434
00:24:43,805 --> 00:24:46,125
Speaker 1: This must have been terrifying, and there is no excuse

435
00:24:46,165 --> 00:24:49,205
Speaker 1: for it. I can't imagine anything scarier than going home

436
00:24:49,605 --> 00:24:53,725
Speaker 1: and someone hiding in my attic. But Karen was young

437
00:24:53,845 --> 00:24:57,085
Speaker 1: and hurting and vulnerable. It's so sad to me, by

438
00:24:57,085 --> 00:24:59,365
Speaker 1: the way that in all of these La noir style

439
00:24:59,445 --> 00:25:02,245
Speaker 1: articles about her, it's all about her being a nude

440
00:25:02,285 --> 00:25:04,725
Speaker 1: body found on a sofa. It's almost like she's some

441
00:25:04,845 --> 00:25:08,445
Speaker 1: kind of movie and not a person. As much as

442
00:25:08,445 --> 00:25:11,485
Speaker 1: I love James Elroy's fiction, it's a little tough for

443
00:25:11,525 --> 00:25:13,405
Speaker 1: me to listen to his podcast on this case. For

444
00:25:13,445 --> 00:25:19,485
Speaker 1: that reason, nothing happened on Karen's case for months, then

445
00:25:19,605 --> 00:25:24,965
Speaker 1: years it went cold. Detectives were suspicious about certain elements

446
00:25:25,005 --> 00:25:27,845
Speaker 1: of Andrew Prine and David Lang stories, but there was

447
00:25:27,885 --> 00:25:31,765
Speaker 1: no physical evidence and no proof. Then three years later,

448
00:25:32,205 --> 00:25:36,485
Speaker 1: something strange happened. Edward Ruben called police and said he

449
00:25:36,525 --> 00:25:41,045
Speaker 1: wanted to revise his statement. Suddenly he was remembering a

450
00:25:41,085 --> 00:25:44,445
Speaker 1: lot more details, supposedly. Now, I don't know how likely

451
00:25:44,485 --> 00:25:47,245
Speaker 1: it is that you suddenly remember events three years later

452
00:25:47,325 --> 00:25:49,725
Speaker 1: that you couldn't remember a couple of days after the murder,

453
00:25:50,125 --> 00:25:55,165
Speaker 1: but that's what happened. He told police that he and

454
00:25:55,285 --> 00:25:58,725
Speaker 1: Robert Hathaway had gone to a bar called the rain

455
00:25:58,845 --> 00:26:01,645
Speaker 1: Check Room on Santa Monica Boulevard after they left Karen's.

456
00:26:01,965 --> 00:26:05,925
Speaker 1: He said Robert had left by himself, and afterwards Edward

457
00:26:05,965 --> 00:26:08,565
Speaker 1: had met two women. He said the two women drove

458
00:26:08,645 --> 00:26:11,445
Speaker 1: him home and he kind of hit on one of them.

459
00:26:11,525 --> 00:26:14,925
Speaker 1: She turned him down. He couldn't remember their names. Detectives

460
00:26:14,965 --> 00:26:17,085
Speaker 1: could not find the women, and so they couldn't really

461
00:26:17,205 --> 00:26:21,645
Speaker 1: verify this story. Police called Robert Hathaway to ask him

462
00:26:21,685 --> 00:26:24,325
Speaker 1: about Edward Ruben's revised statement, and he said that was

463
00:26:24,365 --> 00:26:26,365
Speaker 1: not true. They never went to that bar, they never

464
00:26:26,405 --> 00:26:30,925
Speaker 1: met two women. So again police have conflicting statements, but

465
00:26:31,085 --> 00:26:33,485
Speaker 1: no way to check some of these details, and again

466
00:26:33,685 --> 00:26:37,325
Speaker 1: it seemed like another dead end. After working on the

467
00:26:37,365 --> 00:26:41,645
Speaker 1: case with Karen's niece, James Elroy developed his own theory.

468
00:26:42,325 --> 00:26:45,525
Speaker 1: He said that he believed that book, the one that

469
00:26:45,565 --> 00:26:47,885
Speaker 1: had been open at the crime scene to the page

470
00:26:47,925 --> 00:26:53,125
Speaker 1: about nude dancing, was potentially crucial. His theory was that

471
00:26:53,205 --> 00:26:56,885
Speaker 1: Karen was on a lot of pills, dancing naked and

472
00:26:56,965 --> 00:26:59,485
Speaker 1: somehow fell and hit her head in a weird way,

473
00:26:59,525 --> 00:27:02,325
Speaker 1: either on a chair or a coffee table, and broke

474
00:27:02,365 --> 00:27:05,725
Speaker 1: her hyoid bone. Then somehow crawled back up on the

475
00:27:05,765 --> 00:27:08,725
Speaker 1: sofa and that's how she died. That it wasn't really murdered.

476
00:27:09,565 --> 00:27:13,125
Speaker 1: He also proposed the possibility that the coroner, Harold kid

477
00:27:14,165 --> 00:27:17,325
Speaker 1: might have made a mistake. James Elroy claimed that the

478
00:27:17,365 --> 00:27:20,685
Speaker 1: coroner had a bad reputation. He believed that Harold Kay

479
00:27:20,765 --> 00:27:24,165
Speaker 1: could have broken the hyoid bone accidentally himself and not

480
00:27:24,245 --> 00:27:27,645
Speaker 1: admitted to it. Police did ask the coroner about this

481
00:27:27,685 --> 00:27:30,645
Speaker 1: a few years later, in nineteen sixty six. At the time,

482
00:27:30,805 --> 00:27:33,925
Speaker 1: Harold Cade stuck to his story. He said the hyoid

483
00:27:33,925 --> 00:27:36,725
Speaker 1: bone was broken at the scene, and he also pointed

484
00:27:36,725 --> 00:27:38,805
Speaker 1: to some other evidence. On the autopsy report, there was

485
00:27:38,885 --> 00:27:42,525
Speaker 1: hemorrhaging in Karen's throat that seemed to back up his

486
00:27:42,565 --> 00:27:47,005
Speaker 1: theory of strangulation. It's just a guess, but in my opinion,

487
00:27:47,125 --> 00:27:50,925
Speaker 1: James Elroy's theory of her dancing and breaking her hyoid bone,

488
00:27:51,325 --> 00:27:55,405
Speaker 1: it's possible, but in my opinion, not likely. And I

489
00:27:55,525 --> 00:27:59,725
Speaker 1: don't think she intentionally committed suicide because yes, there were

490
00:27:59,805 --> 00:28:02,645
Speaker 1: disturbing entries in Karen's diary, but there was no clear

491
00:28:02,685 --> 00:28:05,365
Speaker 1: suicide note. She had been making those entries for months.

492
00:28:05,685 --> 00:28:08,725
Speaker 1: And also, the main reason I don't think she intentionally

493
00:28:08,725 --> 00:28:11,285
Speaker 1: took her own life is because this was a woman

494
00:28:11,405 --> 00:28:14,165
Speaker 1: who had a lot of self loathing about her body.

495
00:28:14,605 --> 00:28:18,125
Speaker 1: So in my opinion, there is no way she would

496
00:28:18,165 --> 00:28:20,405
Speaker 1: have ever taken her own life and allowed herself to

497
00:28:20,445 --> 00:28:23,485
Speaker 1: be found naked. Over the years, a lot of people

498
00:28:23,525 --> 00:28:26,685
Speaker 1: had theories about who killed Karen, some a little wilder

499
00:28:26,685 --> 00:28:29,685
Speaker 1: than others. In nineteen sixty seven, a book came out

500
00:28:29,725 --> 00:28:33,325
Speaker 1: by a researcher named Pan Jones. He said the Associated

501
00:28:33,365 --> 00:28:35,445
Speaker 1: Press had had a wire story about a woman who

502
00:28:35,445 --> 00:28:39,685
Speaker 1: called two minutes before JFK was assassinated. This caller apparently

503
00:28:39,725 --> 00:28:41,965
Speaker 1: was in Oxnard, California, that's around an hour and a

504
00:28:42,005 --> 00:28:45,365
Speaker 1: half's drive from LA and said the president was going

505
00:28:45,405 --> 00:28:50,165
Speaker 1: to be shot. So Penn Jones claimed that Karen's father,

506
00:28:50,285 --> 00:28:54,405
Speaker 1: IRV knew Jack Ruby, the man who killed JFK's assassin,

507
00:28:54,525 --> 00:28:58,725
Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald, and IRV knew about the assassination, that

508
00:28:58,805 --> 00:29:00,645
Speaker 1: he told his daughter Karen about it, and that she

509
00:29:00,805 --> 00:29:05,005
Speaker 1: wanted to warn the president. Basically, this researcher said Karen's

510
00:29:05,005 --> 00:29:08,405
Speaker 1: death was a mob hit. This has been floating around

511
00:29:08,445 --> 00:29:10,605
Speaker 1: on web slus and other boards for years and there's

512
00:29:10,685 --> 00:29:13,725
Speaker 1: just no evidence of this. First of all, Karen was

513
00:29:13,765 --> 00:29:16,325
Speaker 1: with her friends in Palm Springs. She never said anything

514
00:29:16,365 --> 00:29:19,765
Speaker 1: about any danger to the president. Much later, the Ventura

515
00:29:19,805 --> 00:29:22,925
Speaker 1: County Star did its own investigation after some of the

516
00:29:23,005 --> 00:29:27,725
Speaker 1: FBI documents were declassified. They found that the operators gave

517
00:29:27,725 --> 00:29:30,525
Speaker 1: a description of the caller's voice, apparently it did not

518
00:29:30,765 --> 00:29:34,285
Speaker 1: match Karen's, and that these operators believed that this caller

519
00:29:34,365 --> 00:29:38,525
Speaker 1: was mentally disturbed. Also, Karen did not drive, She took

520
00:29:38,525 --> 00:29:41,765
Speaker 1: cabs everywhere. How did she get to Oxnart. It's really

521
00:29:41,805 --> 00:29:43,925
Speaker 1: far fetched and in my opinion, just a red herring

522
00:29:43,925 --> 00:29:47,965
Speaker 1: that takes away from the investigation. In nineteen eighty eight,

523
00:29:48,205 --> 00:29:51,365
Speaker 1: IRV Cupsonate published a memoir. He revealed he and his

524
00:29:51,405 --> 00:29:55,845
Speaker 1: wife Essie, believed Andrew Prine did not kill Karen. RV

525
00:29:56,005 --> 00:30:00,285
Speaker 1: seemed to be more focused on David Lane. IRV Cupsonate

526
00:30:00,445 --> 00:30:03,605
Speaker 1: died in two thousand and two, and his funeral was

527
00:30:03,645 --> 00:30:07,365
Speaker 1: a big deal. Hollywood star and the Mayor of Chicago attended.

528
00:30:07,845 --> 00:30:10,725
Speaker 1: His wife, Essie, had died a couple years earlier. It

529
00:30:10,765 --> 00:30:13,965
Speaker 1: was clear that one of Irv's biggest regrets was that

530
00:30:14,005 --> 00:30:17,005
Speaker 1: his daughter Karen's murder had never been solved. He really

531
00:30:17,045 --> 00:30:20,405
Speaker 1: believed the police did not take the investigation seriously enough.

532
00:30:21,245 --> 00:30:24,445
Speaker 1: Andrew Prine went on to act in other films. He

533
00:30:24,485 --> 00:30:27,685
Speaker 1: has also passed away. David Lang seemed to kind of

534
00:30:27,685 --> 00:30:29,885
Speaker 1: fall off the radar for a while. He did work

535
00:30:29,925 --> 00:30:31,885
Speaker 1: on the movie Clute and a couple of other movies.

536
00:30:32,485 --> 00:30:35,525
Speaker 1: According to his IMDb page. He died in two thousand

537
00:30:35,525 --> 00:30:38,925
Speaker 1: and six. Some people have wondered by the way, if

538
00:30:39,045 --> 00:30:41,565
Speaker 1: Robert Hathaway was in the apartment at all that night,

539
00:30:41,645 --> 00:30:46,005
Speaker 1: because when police dusted for fingerprints, they only found Edward

540
00:30:46,045 --> 00:30:49,845
Speaker 1: Ruben's fingerprints. So I wonder, is it possible that only

541
00:30:49,965 --> 00:30:52,685
Speaker 1: Edward Ruben was there, and that Robert Hathaway his friend,

542
00:30:52,725 --> 00:30:54,645
Speaker 1: gave him an alibi for that night so he wouldn't

543
00:30:54,645 --> 00:30:58,125
Speaker 1: get in trouble. But if that's true, why were there

544
00:30:58,245 --> 00:31:04,005
Speaker 1: three cups of coffee out? It's weird that their stories

545
00:31:04,005 --> 00:31:06,845
Speaker 1: didn't match, And I wonder why police didn't push all

546
00:31:06,885 --> 00:31:09,965
Speaker 1: of these guys a lot harder. I keep coming back

547
00:31:10,005 --> 00:31:13,245
Speaker 1: to a couple of details, the unlocked door and that

548
00:31:13,365 --> 00:31:16,285
Speaker 1: red bathrobe which Mark and Marsha Goddard said looked like

549
00:31:16,325 --> 00:31:18,405
Speaker 1: it had been removed and kind of thrown on the chair.

550
00:31:18,845 --> 00:31:21,725
Speaker 1: Now again, Edward and Robert could be lying about locking

551
00:31:21,725 --> 00:31:25,725
Speaker 1: that door behind them. But if they're telling the truth,

552
00:31:26,205 --> 00:31:28,845
Speaker 1: and if David is telling the truth about the door

553
00:31:28,845 --> 00:31:31,925
Speaker 1: being unlocked when he twisted the knob, the evidence points

554
00:31:31,925 --> 00:31:34,885
Speaker 1: to Karen being in a super depressed state, watching TV

555
00:31:35,525 --> 00:31:38,645
Speaker 1: or maybe in bed, and then someone knocking on the

556
00:31:38,645 --> 00:31:40,965
Speaker 1: door and her going to open that door. Maybe she

557
00:31:41,045 --> 00:31:43,685
Speaker 1: threw the robe on the chair because she thought it

558
00:31:43,725 --> 00:31:46,805
Speaker 1: was Andy showing up. They had just talked on the phone.

559
00:31:46,925 --> 00:31:49,405
Speaker 1: Maybe she opened the door and it was someone else,

560
00:31:50,045 --> 00:31:55,325
Speaker 1: someone she didn't expect. Karen Cupson. It's case is still

561
00:31:55,445 --> 00:31:58,925
Speaker 1: officially open, and a lot of people ask me why

562
00:31:58,965 --> 00:32:03,165
Speaker 1: I would cover this. Almost everyone related to this case

563
00:32:03,165 --> 00:32:06,565
Speaker 1: has passed away. But I wanted to cover this case

564
00:32:06,565 --> 00:32:09,365
Speaker 1: because there's still one person in this whose name we

565
00:32:09,445 --> 00:32:13,365
Speaker 1: don't have, and that is the actress who supposedly went

566
00:32:13,405 --> 00:32:17,285
Speaker 1: out with Andrew Prine on that Wednesday night. If she

567
00:32:17,485 --> 00:32:20,565
Speaker 1: is still around, I would love to find her because

568
00:32:20,605 --> 00:32:24,325
Speaker 1: I think she could help answer some questions. And to me,

569
00:32:24,485 --> 00:32:26,405
Speaker 1: every time I hear about this case, I hear the

570
00:32:26,405 --> 00:32:28,485
Speaker 1: same thing. I hear, this is a Hollywood story, it's

571
00:32:28,485 --> 00:32:32,645
Speaker 1: a cautionary tale. To me, it's much more universal, Karen Cupson,

572
00:32:32,685 --> 00:32:35,605
Speaker 1: It was much more than West Hollywood case file number

573
00:32:35,685 --> 00:32:38,565
Speaker 1: Z nine six one sixty five to one. This was

574
00:32:38,605 --> 00:32:41,085
Speaker 1: a young woman with hopes and dreams. She was living

575
00:32:41,125 --> 00:32:43,485
Speaker 1: alone for the first time in her life. She loved

576
00:32:43,485 --> 00:32:46,405
Speaker 1: a guy who didn't really love her back. I really

577
00:32:46,405 --> 00:32:49,085
Speaker 1: believe if she'd had some time, she probably would have

578
00:32:49,085 --> 00:32:51,765
Speaker 1: gotten her shit together. She might have made it in Hollywood.

579
00:32:51,965 --> 00:32:55,645
Speaker 1: She might have quit Hollywood had a family followed another dream.

580
00:32:56,125 --> 00:32:58,965
Speaker 1: She had family at home who loved her and stood

581
00:32:59,005 --> 00:33:01,805
Speaker 1: behind her. She had friends. We've all done some crazy

582
00:33:01,805 --> 00:33:03,565
Speaker 1: things when we're young and in love, and I believe

583
00:33:03,685 --> 00:33:07,085
Speaker 1: she probably would have moved past all that. Unfortunately she

584
00:33:07,205 --> 00:33:12,285
Speaker 1: never got that chance. The tragedy of this story is

585
00:33:12,325 --> 00:33:16,125
Speaker 1: that Karen was so obsessed with fame and she finally

586
00:33:16,165 --> 00:33:19,805
Speaker 1: got it, but she didn't really make headlines until it

587
00:33:19,845 --> 00:33:29,085
Speaker 1: was her obituary. Helen Gone Murder Line is a production

588
00:33:29,125 --> 00:33:31,845
Speaker 1: of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and

589
00:33:31,925 --> 00:33:35,045
Speaker 1: narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts.

590
00:33:35,565 --> 00:33:39,005
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Amy Tubbs for her research assistance. Music

591
00:33:39,005 --> 00:33:42,885
Speaker 1: contributed by Ben Sale. This episode was scored and mixed

592
00:33:42,885 --> 00:33:47,125
Speaker 1: by Noah Kamer. Executive producers of Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr,

593
00:33:47,165 --> 00:33:50,645
Speaker 1: and Elsie Crowley. Listen to Helen Gone ad free by

594
00:33:50,645 --> 00:33:54,325
Speaker 1: subscribing to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel on Apple Podcasts.

595
00:33:54,645 --> 00:33:57,245
Speaker 1: You can follow the show on Instagram at Helen Gonepod.

596
00:33:57,885 --> 00:33:59,485
Speaker 1: If you have a case you'd like me and my

597
00:33:59,525 --> 00:34:01,685
Speaker 1: team to look into, you can reach out to us

598
00:34:01,685 --> 00:34:04,045
Speaker 1: at our Helen Gone Murder line at six seven eight

599
00:34:04,245 --> 00:34:07,805
Speaker 1: seven four four six one four five That six seven

600
00:34:07,845 --> 00:34:14,765
Speaker 1: eight seven four four six one four five School of

601
00:34:14,845 --> 00:34:15,285
Speaker 1: Humans