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Speaker 1: Warning, This podcast contains spoilers for and Or episodes four

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Speaker 1: through seven, the finale of Lord of the Rings, Rings

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Speaker 1: of Power, House of the Dragon episode nine, and a

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Speaker 1: minor minor minor minor.

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Speaker 2: Spoiler for Halloween Ends.

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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 1: My name is Jason Concepcion, and welcome to x ray Vision,

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Speaker 1: The Crooked podcast, where we dive deep in to your

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Speaker 1: favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: on the previously on, we'll be catching up on episodes

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Speaker 1: four through seven of and Or, Plus we will be

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Speaker 1: discussing the Rings of Power finale, big stuff, big stuff

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Speaker 1: going on in the Southlands and elsewhere in Middle Earth.

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Speaker 1: In the Hive Mind, we will be discussing the Rings

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Speaker 1: of Power finale with series co writer Jennifer Hutchinson. In

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Speaker 1: the we're gonna be discussing the penultimate episode of House

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Speaker 1: of the Dragon, and of course, followed by your questions

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Speaker 1: answered in the Ask the Master segment. If you want

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Speaker 1: to jump around, check the show notes for timestamps and

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Speaker 1: enjoy to me today. She's the number one. She's the best,

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Speaker 1: She writes Godzilla. She answers all of your nerd fantasy,

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Speaker 1: sci fi, comic lore questions. She is the great and

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Speaker 1: the powerful Rosie Knight. She is more powerful than the

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Speaker 1: foundations of the Earth.

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Speaker 4: Rosie.

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Speaker 2: How are you?

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Speaker 5: I'm good? What introduction from the Mace to himself? I

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Speaker 5: feel so on it. How are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great? And I and I must say a

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Speaker 1: lot of we were write content today.

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Speaker 5: Oh I know, I feel like last week shout out

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Speaker 5: to our listeners because, like, because we were having such

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Speaker 5: a good conversation with Cody, the bell did not ring

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Speaker 5: as much as you guys were expecting. But the bell

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Speaker 5: is gonna be ringing today.

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Speaker 2: Let's ring it, all right, Let's get let's get started.

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Speaker 1: First, up and door, all right, let's start with and

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Speaker 1: or streaming now on Disney Plus episode seven. The announcement,

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Speaker 1: written by Stephen Schiff and directed by Benjamin Karen have

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Speaker 1: just dropped That picks up at the end of episode

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Speaker 1: sixth the I after the heist has taken place, and

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Speaker 1: now the news is starting to seep out into the galaxy.

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Speaker 1: Mon Matha, not really understanding what Rail was like planning,

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Speaker 1: now understands how how serious the rebellion is, and he

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Speaker 1: says to her, I think in a line that sticks

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Speaker 1: with me, is like, what did I say, I said

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Speaker 1: there'd be no turning back once we do this, And

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Speaker 1: now she's really beginning to understand what that means, and

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Speaker 1: the ISB is winging into gear. They have egg on

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Speaker 1: their face. This has happened. It happened under their noses,

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Speaker 1: and they are trying to figure out, Okay, how can

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Speaker 1: we figure how can we track these people?

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Speaker 2: Miro has her.

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Speaker 1: Own ideas about how to do it, and she uses

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Speaker 1: like the or the Empire's version of the Patriot Act

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Speaker 1: to break numerous privacy laws in order to like soak

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Speaker 1: up all the data from all the various sectors so

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Speaker 1: that she can put together a pattern of what's going

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Speaker 1: on out there in terms of like what the rebellion

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Speaker 1: is up to. And then we see Cassian back home,

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Speaker 1: just thinking about escape. He's done his part, he's got

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Speaker 1: his credits, he's ready to go. He wants Marva to

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Speaker 1: come and be to come with him, and let's just

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Speaker 1: get out of here. Fuck this caring about things done.

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Speaker 1: I've done the thing I needed to do and I

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Speaker 1: barely got out of it alive. And now let's just

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Speaker 1: spend that money and have fun. This show is really good,

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Speaker 1: and I think the thing that has me that I

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Speaker 1: can't stop thinking about is just how absolutely radical in

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Speaker 1: its message this show is. It's like it really is

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Speaker 1: a Star Wars for twenty twenty two. Yeah, in the

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Speaker 1: way that Star Wars when it came out in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy seven, on top of the fact that it was

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Speaker 1: this swashbuckling space adventure epic, must have felt really really

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Speaker 1: radical because it's, you know, it's this ragtag rebellion against

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Speaker 1: a super empire with weapons of mass destruction. It's basically

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Speaker 1: like the American it's taking like the moral clarity of

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Speaker 1: the rebel. You know, this is on the heels of

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Speaker 1: the Vietnam War, in which we had the United States

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Speaker 1: of America, the most powerful country on Earth, had been

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Speaker 1: expelled from from a small country using like every means

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Speaker 1: at its disposal, and Star Wars took that defeat, flipped

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Speaker 1: the moral calculus, gave it to the good guys US,

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Speaker 1: and let American Western slash global audiences relate to the

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Speaker 1: moral clarity of the underdog in a way that felt

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Speaker 1: really really invigorating but also like radical. And I think

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Speaker 1: this show is doing that in much the same way.

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Speaker 1: It's it's asking crazy questions in a Star Wars context, like,

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Speaker 1: when is it okay to like assassinate.

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Speaker 2: These security figures?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: When is it okay to do that? When is it

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Speaker 1: okay to to say this has gone far enough and

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Speaker 1: any means at our disposal are good to use against

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Speaker 1: the foe. I think those are fascinating questions to ask

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Speaker 1: in a Star Wars context.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I also think it continues, like you say, the legacy

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Speaker 5: of what Star Wars was about. It was about a

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Speaker 5: small group of people going up against the fascistic superpower,

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Speaker 5: and collateral damage doesn't matter. It's heroic to blow up

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Speaker 5: the Death Star, no matter how many people die, because

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Speaker 5: you're it's the good of the many over the good

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Speaker 5: of the few, you know, And this is doing it.

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Speaker 5: But it is coming at it because A it's long

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Speaker 5: format storytelling and b it's twenty twenty two and we

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Speaker 5: have a different creative team behind it. It's coming at

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Speaker 5: it in a way that is a much more ground

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Speaker 5: level view of the reality and the losses that occur,

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Speaker 5: and the the horror of actually having to kill someone,

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Speaker 5: even if it's for you know, the right reasons or

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Speaker 5: something you believe. In episode six that I I mean,

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Speaker 5: we talked about from episodes. You know that we'd seen

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Speaker 5: one to four, we would we thought the show was

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Speaker 5: well made, but it hadn't like necessarily found it. The

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Speaker 5: messaging hadn't hit with us in the same way when

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Speaker 5: once you get to this episode six, episode seven, you know,

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Speaker 5: it's episode five where you start to meet this collective

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Speaker 5: of what in any other story would essentially be seen

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Speaker 5: as terrorists, you know, and you mean, that's the big thing.

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Speaker 5: Is this is that ultimate question of do you not

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Speaker 5: realize that when you were watching Star Wars Luke Skywalker

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Speaker 5: is a terrorist to the Empire? You know? That is

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Speaker 5: that is what we're seeing, but here yet to see

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Speaker 5: it on this ground level way, the real losses that happened,

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Speaker 5: that the risks that are taken in it's very different,

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Speaker 5: and that I really did an unbelievable job of bringing

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Speaker 5: that to the forefront.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's this. There is a.

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Speaker 1: It's a fascinating calculus because it this show is much

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Speaker 1: like again Star Wars a New Hope before it. It

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Speaker 1: is a tacit admission that the messaging that many terrorist

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Speaker 1: groups slash freedom fighting groups use is a universe is

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Speaker 1: one that has weight, right, It's an admission that those

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Speaker 1: things that those are persuasive arguments.

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Speaker 5: And also like who tells the story the rebellion win,

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Speaker 5: so they are freedom fighters, not terrorists, whereas in the

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Speaker 5: size of the Empire they are terrorists. So if the

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Speaker 5: empire had won, they would have forever just been told

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Speaker 5: as terrorists. And the reality is a lot more complex,

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Speaker 5: And I think that's what this is really tapping into.

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking about the fact that watching this show,

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Speaker 1: maybe more than any of the other shows that are

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Speaker 1: on right now, it really gets at the idea that

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Speaker 1: nobody says I'm the bad guy. Like everybody thinks they're

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Speaker 1: the hero. Everybody thinks that they are defending their homes,

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Speaker 1: defend their ideals, you know, trying to keep chaos and

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Speaker 1: criminality at bay, fighting back against you know, the powers

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Speaker 1: and the forces of of of destruction. Right, nobody says

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Speaker 1: I'm going to crush all opposition, all these like weak

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Speaker 1: little everyone.

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Speaker 5: Even what I have to do is for the better

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Speaker 5: of the world, the better of the galaxy.

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Speaker 1: Even though major part of Gas does like say stuff

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Speaker 1: kind of like this in this episode, it's all from

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Speaker 1: a perspective of we're we're actually good, and that is

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Speaker 1: like the way life works, which is kind of scary

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Speaker 1: in the sense that if you subscribe to that, that

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Speaker 1: idea that everybody thinks that they're a good guy, no

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Speaker 1: matter how bad the ship that they're doing. Is it

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Speaker 1: really all comes down to then our perception of the

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Speaker 1: world and the and how we relate to facts from

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Speaker 1: different angles, and the fact that it all comes down

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Speaker 1: to our perceptions what's right, what's wrong, what's just, what's

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Speaker 1: not right? What's a war, what's a what's a rebellion? Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, what's an insurgency? And or like a just

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Speaker 1: confrontation with an.

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Speaker 2: Over powerful foe.

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Speaker 1: That all of that comes down to, just like your

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Speaker 1: belief system and the way you perceive things and your

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Speaker 1: own personal emotions and backstory. That's kind of scary in

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Speaker 1: a way because.

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Speaker 5: It's so subjective.

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Speaker 1: It makes it feel it makes everything feel a lot

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Speaker 1: more tenuous than we let ourselves feel about the world.

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Speaker 1: And and I think this show really captures that in

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Speaker 1: ways that just like have me thinking about it all

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 5: And I think something that's really interesting is there is

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Speaker 5: arguably only one character in the show who does not

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Speaker 5: think he's the good guy, and it's Cassian. Because Cassian

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Speaker 5: doesn't see himself as having a side. Cassian sees himself

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Speaker 5: as a survivor, as someone who just needs to do

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Speaker 5: what he has to do to survive, whether you know.

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Speaker 5: And we see that slightly shift at the end of

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Speaker 5: the eye when he kills someone who he deems to

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Speaker 5: be a betrayer, somebody who might harm other people. But

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Speaker 5: that doesn't mean that he's suddenly turned into a blood

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Speaker 5: that's true believer. Yeah, And I think the irony is

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Speaker 5: this is kind of one of my favorite fictional tropes

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Speaker 5: that is also very true in real life, is like

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Speaker 5: the best leaders are the people who don't want to lead.

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Speaker 5: And that's why I think what we're seeing now is

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Speaker 5: Cassian is going to become a key part of the

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Speaker 5: rebellion because he doesn't believe he's only good. He actually

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Speaker 5: sees the moral complexity of everything that he does. And

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Speaker 5: I just think, like, you really hit on why I

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Speaker 5: think this show is working, because also I think it's

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Speaker 5: very rare in any kind of Western entertainment or especially

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Speaker 5: now in twenty twenty two, to have a show that

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Speaker 5: poses the idea that direct action and violent action are

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Speaker 5: necessary for radical change. That is an incredibly radical idea.

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Speaker 5: That a lot of people have.

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Speaker 1: It's mind blowing to in real life.

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Speaker 5: So this is, yes, there's this. You know, these ideas

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Speaker 5: of the power of imagination and what imagination can show

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Speaker 5: are often very utopian, but the reality of how we

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Speaker 5: get to a better place is not clean or often nonviolent.

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Speaker 5: And I think it is incredibly interesting to see that,

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Speaker 5: and not only see it, but in a difference from

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Speaker 5: the original Star Wars because again many many years later,

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Speaker 5: now we feel it in a very different way, and

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Speaker 5: the old Star Wars, the blasters, the sci fi noess,

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Speaker 5: the lasers. It made it feel very like, oh, a

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Speaker 5: bad guy die. I don't know, just like it's a cartoon,

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Speaker 5: whereas in this you feel the deaths, you feel the pain,

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Speaker 5: you feel the loss, you feel the cost of life.

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Speaker 5: But you also see and this is something I think

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Speaker 5: we're going to see because this has all been kind

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Speaker 5: of minis and I feel like you've got a touch

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Speaker 5: of it in the eye, but you really get it

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Speaker 5: in episode seven, is this like the banality of evil?

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Speaker 5: This kind of horri bit you recene the death and

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Speaker 5: mass in prison? You know, we end episode seven with

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Speaker 5: Cassian just getting put in prison for six years for

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Speaker 5: being in the wrong place, and it's just.

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Speaker 1: Like literally like the dumbest cop who's just like had

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Speaker 1: it out on a power trip.

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Speaker 5: And it just punched me in the stomach because that's

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Speaker 5: actually not fantastical. That's absolutely a real thing that people

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Speaker 5: deal with, and this kind of the horrific bureaucracy of

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Speaker 5: incarceration and mass incarceration and the laziness of fascism, and

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Speaker 5: the best way to stop people rebelling is to just

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Speaker 5: imprison them or kill them, you know. And this show

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Speaker 5: is really digging into that. And we talked a little

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Speaker 5: bit about her right, but one of the things I'm

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Speaker 5: most interested in is we have this isb agent dead

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Speaker 5: dra Mirro Right, is she working for the rebellion? Because

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Speaker 5: I feel like she's just digging into a lot of

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Speaker 5: secrets and getting a lot of freedom to do so.

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Speaker 5: And we've seen a couple of double agents. But that's

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Speaker 5: my kind of main like non deeply political kind of

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Speaker 5: wonder and theory as we come out of this episode.

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Speaker 1: I have not thought about that at all until this

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Speaker 1: very moment, but now I do wonder because.

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Speaker 5: She's like actively going out of her way to dig

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Speaker 5: into this information, which seems like it's working in the

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Speaker 5: favor of the empire. But is she just finding because

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Speaker 5: she's looking for missing imperial technology which has apparently been

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Speaker 5: stolen by the rebels. Right, But that's also very good

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Speaker 5: for the rebels to know what is missing, What do

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Speaker 5: they have information about that is missing, what do they

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Speaker 5: not have? Where are their weaknesses. I'm very interested to

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Speaker 5: see see interesting.

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Speaker 1: I had not considered that, but now that you mention it,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if there might not be something to it.

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Speaker 1: Listen good, you know, bad characters turning good or at

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Speaker 1: least gray is one of the major themes of Star Wars,

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Speaker 1: that kind of redemptive arc. And you do wonder if

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Speaker 1: the more she sees and the more she discovers about

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Speaker 1: the Empire, because.

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Speaker 5: She looked pretty horrified when they talked about like cracking down.

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Speaker 5: You know, we're definitely seeing more. We got that great

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Speaker 5: moment in the eye whether the empire officer who had

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Speaker 5: been helping this kind of cell of rebels another one

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Speaker 5: of his officers said to him, you know you're going

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Speaker 5: to hang for this, and he said, well, after everything,

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Speaker 5: after working for you for so long and everything I've done,

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Speaker 5: I deserve worse than that. And I think we're in

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Speaker 5: this age of seeing empire and imperial forces and imperial

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Speaker 5: complicit people suddenly realizing the horrors of what they've actually

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Speaker 5: been supporting.

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Speaker 1: You know, thinking about like when is it okay to

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Speaker 1: take violent action against an oppressor, which, again, in this

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Speaker 1: with this idea that we've been talking about, where everybody

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Speaker 1: thinks they're the good guy, you don't have to stretch

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Speaker 1: your imagination too far to know that. Like, even the

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Speaker 1: people that want to overthrow democracy think that they are

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Speaker 1: doing that right. They think that they are the good

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Speaker 1: guy fighting this oppressive government like that is a very

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Speaker 1: familiar trope, and it's the story that we as people

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Speaker 1: tell ourselves all the time. I think one of the

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Speaker 1: interesting things about this show, one of the many interesting things,

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Speaker 1: is it basically lays out the formula here's when it's

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Speaker 1: here's when it's morally right to strike back against a foe.

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Speaker 1: If they are unnecessarily brutal, if they cause the loss

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Speaker 1: of rights, both ancient like natural rights, but also the

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Speaker 1: law lawful rights of a people, if they are colonizing,

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Speaker 1: invading another people's lands and desecrating it and you know,

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Speaker 1: taking the natural resources, et cetera, and if they're just

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Speaker 1: running rough shot over privacy over or due process over

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Speaker 1: all those kind of things, and sounded sounded that is

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Speaker 1: that is like a rat that's a radical formulization to

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Speaker 1: put into a Star Wars story and Disney Plus on

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Speaker 1: Disney Plus, and I it is amazing to watch and

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Speaker 1: you know it's working because I saw someone I saw

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Speaker 1: a tweet going around virally like viral because people were

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Speaker 1: disagreeing with it, but they're basically saying, oh, one of them.

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Speaker 1: It was like a got to hear both sides type

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Speaker 1: tweet where it was like, oh, you know. One of

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Speaker 1: the most interesting things about this show is that it

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Speaker 1: shows how both extremism as as as embodied by Cyril

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Speaker 1: but also by the rebels by like Keras, are equally

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Speaker 1: as bad. And it's like, absolutely not what it's saying.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that that's a read that people are

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Speaker 1: coming away shows that your.

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Speaker 5: Point is so on about that.

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Speaker 2: I completely agree.

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Speaker 5: I will say the one moment that I really love

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Speaker 5: because I think that is so true, right that, like

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Speaker 5: it's so about subjective reading to us, it doesn't feel

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Speaker 5: like that because of the way that we feel about

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Speaker 5: things and the way that we feel like the story

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Speaker 5: is going, and the fact that Rogue one is incredibly radical.

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Speaker 5: But there is one moment in the Eye that I

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Speaker 5: feel like, if you're not sure where this show stands,

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Speaker 5: when this unbelievable, just visually stunning effect of this kind

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Speaker 5: of meteor shower, aurora borealist kind of situation, and the Force,

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Speaker 5: the people who live in the area of the Eye,

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Speaker 5: whatever it is, the Tie fighters just get cosmically mashed

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Speaker 5: by the meteors, but the Rebels get away. And to me,

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Speaker 5: that is the universe knows what the right side is

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Speaker 5: in that moment. The Force knows, this incredible spectacle knows,

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Speaker 5: and I love that because I do think a lot

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Speaker 5: of shows and a lot of storytelling would like to

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Speaker 5: couch itself in the safety of both sides. But I

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Speaker 5: think in this show they are telling you you can

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Speaker 5: read it however you want, but this is the right side,

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Speaker 5: and these are the heroes and their journey as we

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Speaker 5: know it is going to lead to the heroics of

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Speaker 5: these characters that you have loved for forty years as

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Speaker 5: the ultimate archetypal heroes. So no, their extremism is not

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Speaker 5: equally as bad. It's just necessary.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think we we don't think about

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Speaker 3: an adversarial relationship as a relationship per se the same

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Speaker 3: way as like a friendship or a romantic relationship is

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Speaker 3: a relationship, but it is you learn things from your enemy.

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Speaker 2: Enemy does things.

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Speaker 1: That cause you, like as the hero or the protagonist,

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Speaker 1: to react and to respond to and it is a conversation.

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Speaker 1: It's a communication, a two way communication. And you see

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Speaker 1: that in this episode when you know, the suggestion is

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Speaker 1: made that maybe hey, maybe we should tavell, Hey maybe

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Speaker 1: we should kill and or let's close that loop and

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Speaker 1: make sure that that is closed. That is that's something

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Speaker 1: the empire would do, but it's also something that radicals

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Speaker 1: would do. I think it's like a it's it shows

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Speaker 1: you how when you're in a fight you react to

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Speaker 1: who you're fighting with, and it's it is a really

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Speaker 1: man it's fun to think about. We're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about it more in the coming weeks. Up next more

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Speaker 1: Rings of Power. Okay, Rings of Power. The finale episode

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Speaker 1: eight Alloyed, there's a reference to the particular metallurgical technique

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Speaker 1: used to to forge you know, just some cute, cute,

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Speaker 1: little cute little jewelry. Nothing nothing bad could come of

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Speaker 1: those jewry.

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Speaker 5: Everyone loves it. Just a nice, nice fun jewelry.

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Speaker 3: You have a written show about ring written by our

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Speaker 3: guests who are about to welcome to the episode, Jennifer

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Speaker 3: Hutchinson and J. D.

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Speaker 1: Payne and Patrick McKay and directed by Wayne Chay. Yip, folks,

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Speaker 1: what I mean wow? Let me first thought, let's start

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Speaker 1: with this. So we see the stranger and you know,

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Speaker 1: the wanderers are around him, and they are proclaiming him

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Speaker 1: to be their master. Who's their master? There is master

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Speaker 1: their master's sun? And were you fooled by it?

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Speaker 5: What are you?

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Speaker 2: Fools?

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Speaker 5: That has got to be one of the best, like

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Speaker 5: fake out called opens. They're strangers there and it's also atmospheric,

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Speaker 5: and he's in this he's in Erin Galen the Greenwood,

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Speaker 5: which is also like the Mirk Woods. So you've got

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Speaker 5: a big Tolkien location. And then you have them and

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Speaker 5: they come and they just sort of so seriously, you know,

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Speaker 5: the dwellers like Lord Souron, and I have to say, look,

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Speaker 5: my first thought was like, oh, I guess I was wrong,

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Speaker 5: But then I no, I got faked out. I was

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Speaker 5: like I got and not only that, but like what

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Speaker 5: I think is so fun about this is I bet

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Speaker 5: that for a lot of people who don't sit and

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Speaker 5: talk about this every week for hours, it probably felt

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Speaker 5: very believable. Like it was. It was a huge moment,

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Speaker 5: and you think, oh, did they kind of blow their

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Speaker 5: magical load? But then we get to the truth of it,

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Speaker 5: which is like the most sus guy on the planet, Akay.

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Speaker 1: Helbrand Helrand, I will say, here's the thing, the the

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Speaker 1: early fake out and then the sub quin scene where

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Speaker 1: the nomad, the dweller and the other one are like,

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Speaker 1: you know, master, you've got to you've got to control

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Speaker 1: your powers. Once you've once you remember yourself, you'll you'll

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Speaker 1: feel more.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: At one that continued to fool me, and so in retrospect,

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Speaker 1: having now watched the episode several times again, I was

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Speaker 1: willing to like let Colbrands increasingly sussshit go in the

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Speaker 1: intervening scenes because to your point, he just gets a

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Speaker 1: little too weird with it with like, hey, well have

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Speaker 1: you thought, gosh, have you thought about I don't know,

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Speaker 1: crazy thought combining other metals.

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Speaker 5: I know, I kind of believe it. Like the thing

401
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 5: that I think they do so well with the stranger

402
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 5: stuff is that is one of the most unexpectedly kind

403
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Speaker 5: of emotional arcs this season, and they give you that

404
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Speaker 5: big scary fake out and then they kind of have

405
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Speaker 5: this those intervening scenes where they're showing him losing control

406
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Speaker 5: of his powers and he has to remember who he

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Speaker 5: is and then you'll find out he's Sourn and he

408
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 5: has to go back to run and you know, and

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Speaker 5: we've talked about like the Blue Wizards, is that who

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Speaker 5: these people are, though they usually would be people who'd

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Speaker 5: be stopping Sourn, so these are probably like cult members

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Speaker 5: and it's really interesting. And then you get that great

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Speaker 5: moment after we've seen how Brand become even more sus

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Speaker 5: and just constantly be popping up manipulating people talking about gifts,

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Speaker 5: which is when I realized what they were really doing.

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Speaker 5: You have that great moment where they go, oh, wait

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Speaker 5: a minute, he's not Sourn, he's the other one, you know,

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Speaker 5: and then they say he's Atari, which is the Tolkien

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Speaker 5: word for wizard. So that's like a huge moment that

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Speaker 5: we can kind of break down a little bit as

421
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Speaker 5: we get to the end because they kind of play

422
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Speaker 5: into some very fun stuff. But before that, Galadriel, poor

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Speaker 5: old Galadriel.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Gladriel, some of the choices you made in this

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Speaker 1: episode get Oh.

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Speaker 5: She gets back to their Elvin kingdom. She has truly

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Speaker 5: been seduced by the most handsome cast member of the

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Speaker 5: Rings of Power, and they stay heal him and everyone's

429
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,360
Speaker 5: like wow, like, so glad you brought this guy back

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Speaker 5: to be healed. Apart from gilgalad who's like, hmm, I

431
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Speaker 5: don't know who this guy is, but old Keller Brimble

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Speaker 5: is very happy, especially when hal Brand shows up and

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Speaker 5: he's like, oh my god, it's you, Keller Brimble. I

434
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Speaker 5: can't believe it.

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Speaker 1: You are so yeah. His head just swells up.

436
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Speaker 5: And I thought this guy sounds like he's doing some

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Speaker 5: manipulations and sounds like he's charming someone, and like almost instantly,

438
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,239
Speaker 5: he's just telling him how to forge the rings, and

439
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 5: that would just blow in my mind. I could not.

440
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 3: Believe it now when that happen, when he starts bringing

441
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 3: up the I have the hours and then gosh, you

442
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 3: know that wouldn't that work.

443
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 2: That's that followed by.

444
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: The scene where Halbrand and Galadriel are out in the

445
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: in the gardens and he's thanking her for saving his

446
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: life and trying to put her at ease, you know,

447
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: and she's she's beginning to get a little freaked out.

448
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: And then but everything seems more or less normal, and

449
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: then you know, he he puts his hand on her

450
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: shoulder in a way that feels a little too familiar

451
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: and whispers, you know, uh id all but get you know,

452
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: they're talking about how Glad really believed in him. Oh yeah,

453
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: and he's like kind of strength and he's like, pushed me.

454
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 5: Again, and I'll make sure no one else will either.

455
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh that was when at that moment,

456
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: about twenty minutes in the episode, I'm like, Okay, this

457
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: guy's fucking.

458
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, well it's him, it's him. He there was the

459
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 5: one that really got me, like I've done We've talked

460
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 5: so much about it, and I've done so much reading

461
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 5: and I've been writing so much about it that he

462
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 5: for me moment, I knew that they were doing it

463
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 5: and they didn't want us to be confused. They were saying, like,

464
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 5: this is him. He's talking to old Keller Brimbough and

465
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 5: he says, you know, Keller Brimbles like, oh, how how

466
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 5: can I you know, thank you for like telling me

467
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 5: how to forge these rings with this alloy and to

468
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 5: put you know, gold and silver to make it so

469
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 5: much more powerful. And he's like, don't worry, it's a

470
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 5: gift and I was like, oh my god, it's Anata,

471
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 5: the giver, giver of gifts is here giving you a gift.

472
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 5: So yeah, I found that. I just thought Charlie Vickers,

473
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 5: who plays how Brand, is just so good in this episode,

474
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 5: Like it's one of the most engrossing heel turns that

475
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 5: I've seen in a long time. He'd and what I

476
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 5: really love here that is something that's so different from

477
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 5: anything that we've seen before, and that kind of leans

478
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 5: into I was on doom Pod talking about Legend recently

479
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 5: and something someone in our discord pointed out that was

480
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 5: really cool about this episode that we kind of talked about.

481
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 5: Legend fits into like Labyrinth, and like, you know those

482
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 5: stories that are about like the seduction of a young,

483
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 5: complicated woman by evil, right, and that is very much

484
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 5: what this story is. But they do it they make

485
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 5: it so much more textual because we then get this

486
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 5: whole sequence where Suren's basically like, look, you can lead

487
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 5: with me, you can be my cree hey. We can

488
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 5: balance the dark and the light. We can we can

489
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 5: make something good, and you see this shadow of this

490
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 5: sour Side, and it was.

491
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: It is a very seductive deal. Hey listen, you know

492
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: you're both playing to Galadriel's ego by saying, hey, you can,

493
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: You're actually the thing that will bauck. I want to

494
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: be good. I want to be tethered to the light.

495
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: You will tell me to the light, and then you

496
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: will get the thing that you want, which you can't

497
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: admit that you do want and I know that you

498
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: want it. You want the power and you'll get that,

499
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: and then we will bring peace to Middle Earth.

500
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 2: Uh.

501
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: And you know she's like, well, do you mean, like

502
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: you mean rule Middle Earth?

503
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: Yeah's same thing.

504
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 3: Same thing, is it not?

505
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: So I must ask you after the seduction and props

506
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: to Galadriel for for rejecting that. Yeah, why does she

507
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: then not tell them?

508
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 5: Oh? Okay? So I this is the thing that I

509
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 5: just can't get my head around, Like, is this Galadriel's

510
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 5: ego that she she has to be the one to

511
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 5: kill sour On, especially that he has tricked her and

512
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 5: betrayed her and and kind of drawn her in. I

513
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 5: read a great theory. Again, our discord has really been

514
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 5: given the good stuff for Lord of the Rings, and

515
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,959
Speaker 5: actually all the other like Our House to the Dragon

516
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 5: and and Star Wars channels are always amazing. But some a

517
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 5: couple of people know are mentioning about how they thought

518
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 5: that when Galadriel came back it was actually Souron in disguise,

519
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 5: and I love that theory because suddenly Suron's just gone.

520
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 5: But they were kind of generally the conversation ended up

521
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 5: being where I lay on it, which is it is Galadriel,

522
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 5: but she is in this unbelievably compromised situation, and we

523
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 5: kind of end that story with her keeping this deep

524
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 5: secret from Elrond, and Elrond having to be the one

525
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 5: who's going to have to solve it because she's so ashamed.

526
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 5: Do you think el Ron's done.

527
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: Having read the scroll, the genealogy scroll, and surely it's

528
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: like you know, but you can tell by the worried

529
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: look on his face as the rings are being forged,

530
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: you can tell that he knows from that scroll that, oh,

531
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: there there's no King of the Southlands. The last King

532
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: of the Southlands died however many centuries ago. Who is

533
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: this person Halbrand? He may not know that Halbrand is

534
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: sour on, but he certainly knows that Halbrand is not

535
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: the person who he was purporting to be. And also

536
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: now he's fucking gone. Yeah, moments after Gladrow was found

537
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: like half drowned in the river. I wonder what he

538
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: will do next season and why they would this is

539
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: the other thing, Like, you know, Elrond has all season

540
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: been like, we have to tell people about what's going

541
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: on with the tree, about the loss of light, we

542
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: have like this, and then at the beginning of this episode,

543
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:41,719
Speaker 1: when they're when they're really failing to come up with

544
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: a solution to all this, he's like, we have to

545
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: we have to tell everybody that we failed.

546
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: It would be really it would.

547
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: Be a fascinating conflict if now having this piece of

548
00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: even more sensitive information that he then decides to keep it. Yes,

549
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: because of his relationship with Gladra.

550
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 5: I think that's what they're leading to, because you get

551
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 5: that moment where she doesn't believe that he is Elrond.

552
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 5: She thinks he might be Sourn and she asks him

553
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 5: to prove it, and then she tells him that she's

554
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 5: made this terrible mistake. So I wonder we kind of

555
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 5: already had that the episode. I think it was episode

556
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 5: four when Eeron was trying to work out what was

557
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 5: going on in the minds of workout what was going

558
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 5: on with Calibrimbole. So everyone was like, that was like

559
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 5: Elronda's Colombo, and I wonder if we're going to get

560
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 5: more kind of detective l Rond, but who's also trying

561
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 5: to save his oldest friend from because really, Galadriel, this

562
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 5: has not cured her obsession with vengeance, which actually brought

563
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 5: her to this moment, which is what's so heartbreaking. It's

564
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 5: actually made it far worse and far more or consuming

565
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 5: and far more isolating. So I'll be very interested to

566
00:32:52,560 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 5: see and I'm also interested in the timeline because this

567
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 5: really mixes up like a lot of what we kind

568
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 5: of knew, and in the same way, even though when

569
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,959
Speaker 5: we talk about House to Dragon, we're talking about what

570
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 5: are cininically unreliable narrators, right and different versions of history.

571
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 5: Tolkien often changed stuff himself, so that's kind of what

572
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 5: we're contending with here. But this is very interesting because

573
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 5: by like you mentioned, you know what, I kind of love.

574
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 5: I love this on a narrative level. This whole show

575
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 5: is called, you know, Rings of Power, and the whole

576
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 5: first season was a deep character study, and in the

577
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 5: final episode they were like boom, three of the rings

578
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 5: have been forged. I personally very much enjoyed that. But

579
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 5: in the books the Elvin rings are not forged. First,

580
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 5: they are forged as the last rings that are never

581
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 5: corrupted by sourn. So I'll be very interested to kind

582
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 5: of see how the other rings get forged, how sour On,

583
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 5: whether he will reappear in his Giver of Gifts kind

584
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 5: of form to other people, whether we will see Charlie

585
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 5: Vickers continue to be the visualization of Souron, which I

586
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 5: think is really interesting to have a human sour On.

587
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 5: But how long will that survive? You know? And it's

588
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 5: really interesting. I love the freedom that they're taking with

589
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 5: this kind of stuff, and this this leads also to

590
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 5: the big stranger question, which is kind of the other

591
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 5: big question of the episode. Also, by the way, just

592
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 5: so we can say it, we said how aground with Saron,

593
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:27,439
Speaker 5: So we were right.

594
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: We were not the only There were lots of other people.

595
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 5: I think everyone felt it.

596
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, we felt it.

597
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 5: We felt it. It was it was brilliant. Like we said.

598
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,879
Speaker 5: By the time we were covering the Panorama episode, we

599
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 5: were basically like this is too narratively rich for it

600
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 5: to not be the case. That's how good the writing is.

601
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 5: This idea that you're so consumed with vengeance that you

602
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 5: would bring your own down for by by taking up

603
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 5: with the person that you're trying to hunt down, which

604
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 5: is so interesting. But yeah, the timeline. The other timeline

605
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 5: thing is in the canon of Lord of the Rings

606
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 5: as we know it, the wizards or the Istari, they

607
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 5: did not come until the third thousandth age of the

608
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 5: thousandth year of the Third Age, which is about like

609
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 5: three thousand years after this. I think this is around fifteen hundred,

610
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 5: so this changes that. But again, this is a essentially

611
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 5: stories told through oral history or an idea of an

612
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 5: oral history tradition. There's no reason that wizards could not

613
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 5: come back in the Third Age, and people think it's

614
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 5: the first time they've ever arrived. So, you know, we

615
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 5: see the stranger, we learn that he is good, that

616
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 5: he is not sour on, and he has this connection

617
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 5: to the half foot, something that one of our commenters

618
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 5: that we shouted out on the show, you know, pointed out,

619
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 5: seemed very similar to gandalfrom We became very pop We

620
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 5: became very invested in that theory, and it does seem

621
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 5: that that is what the show wants us to think,

622
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 5: because as he and Nori decide they're going to set

623
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 5: off on this adventure together and she does it with

624
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 5: the Harfoot's blessing, which is so magical, he says to her,

625
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 5: if in doubt, Ellen and the brandy Foot, always follow

626
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 5: your nose. And that is like a very famous Gandalf

627
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 5: line from the Peter Jackson movies that he says to

628
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 5: Mary in Fellowship of the Ring. So whether or not

629
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 5: he is Gandalf, we don't know, but they want us

630
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 5: to think, right that is.

631
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: I mean it's him, it's Saramon or Ratigast or.

632
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 5: I love the idea of it being Radigas just because

633
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 5: nature powers. It seems like it could be the Brown Cloak. Yeah,

634
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 5: but but then again, in the age that we live in,

635
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 5: I feel like Gandalf feels very natural. And let's be real,

636
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,919
Speaker 5: it's with he's making friends with the Hobbit. The only

637
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 5: thing something I think they could do potentially that could

638
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 5: add to their kind of really in depth character based

639
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 5: narratives that kind of add this context and emotion to

640
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 5: these characters. We love. It would be very interesting if

641
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 5: he was Soura Man. And the reason that he has

642
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 5: these similarities to Gandalf is because of a closeness that

643
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 5: they have in the future, and Gandalf kind of learns

644
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 5: these quotes from him, or learns these behaviors, or learns

645
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 5: this love for the for the half of us. But

646
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 5: let's be real, it's probably Gandalf. Yeah.

647
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: I want to back up for a second, and here

648
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:38,760
Speaker 1: is my Here is my read on what is going

649
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 1: through Galadriel's mind at the end of this episode is

650
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: the rings are coming out and she's decided, Oh, Halbrand,

651
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: where is he? I don't know, but let's just like,

652
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 1: never deal with him again. Why you might never treat

653
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: with him, You're not treat with him. Why don't worry

654
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: about it.

655
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 5: Don't worry about it.

656
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 2: Let's focus on the ring. Here is my thought.

657
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,399
Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right to focus on this centuries

658
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: long feud. That she has this mission of revenge to

659
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: avenge her brother and kill Souron, and I think in

660
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: her mind she understands that she's made a terrible, terrible

661
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: mistake in giving sourn access to knowledge, to power, to.

662
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 2: To healing, to letting him die.

663
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 5: We don't know how powerful that was. If it's going

664
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 5: to affect him in the future, like his his viability

665
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 5: of life. You know, did you make it more.

666
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: Powerful introducing him to this newly discovered substance of mythral,

667
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: introducing him to calibrimbore their most y elves like most

668
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 1: fantastic genius, forging the rings with his All of these

669
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: things are terrible mistakes. And I think that in her mind,

670
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: she's thinking, Okay, well, if this comes out very rightfully,

671
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 1: the High King Elrond and everyone else will say, Okay,

672
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: that's it. You're off sour on hunting.

673
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: Dude, You're you're too close to it. You can't do that.

674
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 1: It's done. Look what has happened. But look at everything

675
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 1: that has happened. You can't You're too close to it.

676
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: Your emotions are too hot. You can't do this anymore.

677
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,479
Speaker 1: And I think one, that's exactly what they should tell her.

678
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: And two she's just she won't have that. She wants

679
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: to kill him, she wants to be the one to

680
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 1: destroy him, and that's why she didn't say anything.

681
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 5: Now, I think you're totally right because also think about it. Yeah,

682
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 5: isn't this always the beginning of every like Colombo episode,

683
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 5: every terrible thriller film, or every the outcome of any

684
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 5: murder mystery is like, oh, why did you kill that person?

685
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 5: Because they knew the thing that somebody else couldn't know.

686
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 5: And if she can kill Souron, nobody else ever needs

687
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 5: to know that it how brand because to everyone else,

688
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 5: those are still two different people. She can get away

689
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 5: with this terrible thing that she did and still achieve

690
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 5: the one thing that she wants more than anything else,

691
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 5: which is to kill sourn You know, I think it's

692
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 5: so interesting and also like I loved the the end

693
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 5: moment where Saron's like walking to more door is like,

694
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 5: so Zero's like, uh Roe, Who's one of the great

695
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 5: editors that noticed made this mash up where it was

696
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 5: like playing evanescence, wake me up inside and like it

697
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 5: like shows the eyeball spinning and then you pull out

698
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 5: on him, and I was like, Okay, that was actually perfect.

699
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 5: Though I know this is not an anachronistic needle drop,

700
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 5: but I would have in this case, I would have

701
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 5: allowed it.

702
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: And it's also that wonderful like mirror image of the

703
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: iconic images from the Peter Jackson films. Of the eye

704
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: on the top of the barro door, but now it's his.

705
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 3: Actual eye reflecting the flames of Mount Doom.

706
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 2: It was that was also.

707
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 5: They had a lot good They had a lot of

708
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 5: fun with movie stuff and like because also what's the

709
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 5: famous line, you know, a borim one cannot simply walk

710
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 5: into more door.

711
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 2: It's liked just.

712
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: Right, to be fair, to be fair, it wasn't full

713
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: like construction still underway. Yeah, but question the dweller, the

714
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:33,919
Speaker 1: nomad and the asthetic that the three beings who who

715
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: mistook the stranger who we believe to be a geted

716
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: off for souron who do we think that they are?

717
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 5: Okay, So there is like very small amounts written about

718
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 5: like basically people who worshiped the occult cults of melchor

719
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,879
Speaker 5: cults of Morgoth like people who worshiped the dark Arts

720
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 5: and wanted it to come back. And it's very there's

721
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 5: like very little written about them, but I think that

722
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 5: is generally what people assume them to be. There, people

723
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 5: who are desperate for the dark magic or the dark

724
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 5: Lord to come back. I find it most interesting that

725
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 5: they talked about like Rune, because that is a place

726
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 5: that's very heavily connected to wizardry in talking, so I

727
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 5: wonder if they are. We've seen them behave very eavily,

728
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 5: so I'm not saying that they're neutral, like burning the

729
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 5: half foots, but I wonder if it's less about an

730
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 5: obsession with dark arts and more about magic as a whole,

731
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 5: or wanting this magic, this powerful magic, to come back.

732
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 5: But I think that is going to be a huge

733
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 5: part of season two because even though he did kill

734
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 5: them and turn them into cool like skeleton beasts and

735
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 5: then as like they were like they look kind of

736
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 5: like ring raths and then yeah, you know, Saul said

737
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 5: he's and after that, you know, they transform into moths,

738
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 5: which soul port like pointed out that Gandalf has used

739
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 5: in the past, so.

740
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: I think it kind of leaded it carry messages.

741
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 5: And yeah, and even though those three rip to those

742
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,280
Speaker 5: wizards or you know, cult members, even though they are dead,

743
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 5: they are surely not the only people. And I think

744
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 5: we can assume that whatever Nori and the Stranger find

745
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 5: in Run or whoever they come across on the way,

746
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 5: they will likely be connected to that trio of strange magicians.

747
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 1: I wonder at what point, because as you know, we're

748
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 1: seeing the Stranger begin to return to himself. I wonder

749
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,720
Speaker 1: how that plays out over the course of the second season.

750
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: Will he remember his previous life right away or is

751
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: it that or is that going to kind of like

752
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: unfurl over the course of the season.

753
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 2: That'll be really interesting, this.

754
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 5: Do I do wonder. I did get a slight feeling

755
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 5: at the end of this. You remember, obviously, this is

756
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 5: like reading the opening of Ask the Master. You remember

757
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 5: the end of season one of Game of Thrones, Jason,

758
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 5: I do, right, So you remember the feeling, whether you

759
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 5: read the books or not, of thinking the show was

760
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 5: about one person ned start and learning it wasn't right.

761
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 5: I did get a kind of inkling that the Rings

762
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 5: of Power, they have a five you know, we follow Galadria,

763
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 5: We follow that compulsion, that vengeance, and I think that

764
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 5: is going to be a story that plays a part.

765
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 5: But I do wonder if the bigger five season arc

766
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 5: is following Gandalf to becoming Gandalf again, following the Stranger

767
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 5: on that journey. That's a character people love. It's a

768
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 5: long term exploration. You get to bring in all these

769
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 5: different worlds and areas of mid Earth, and you know,

770
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 5: I think a lot of people would love to see

771
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 5: like where the Shire began and things. I think that

772
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 5: could be a way to tie it back to these

773
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 5: stories that people already know and love, So I think

774
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 5: that that would be very interesting.

775
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: I I found myself thinking about the temptation of Galadriel

776
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: from the movies and how it's down to the wording

777
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: and the pitch that Suron makes her in the vision

778
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: of the raft where they initially met each other, and

779
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,479
Speaker 1: thinking how one it made sense that Galadrielle really wasn't

780
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: more involved in the fight during the movies because you

781
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: just you can't.

782
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 3: It's rightfully, whether the truth came out or whatever the

783
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 3: case may be. I think she and maybe the people

784
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 3: around her made the very wise decision that, like, let's

785
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:40,800
Speaker 3: keep Galadriel out of this one that said, it feels

786
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 3: like secrets are Sourn's tool.

787
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: That's one thing I've realized from this. Everybody who is

788
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: trying to keep a secret, an important secret that people

789
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: should know, is ends up suddenly, whether they realize it.

790
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: Or not, compromised.

791
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: Like the way again that that moment where Saron where

792
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: the you know Halbrand. Then Halbrand leans in and says

793
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: you know, and I'll make sure everybody else knows it.

794
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: And in this way that feels confiding, like oh, this

795
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: is between you and me, And then of course Gladriyan

796
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,240
Speaker 1: Elrond have their own little promise. There's something about that

797
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: that that powers Saron and I just wonder how long

798
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: Elrond can keep the secret of what he knows about Halbrand,

799
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: considering all the other secrets that he knows that he

800
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,720
Speaker 1: has been lobbying all season long for people to know about,

801
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: to share, to let other people know.

802
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 5: No, I think you're onto something really really deep there

803
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 5: that kind of links to one of the big you know,

804
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 5: this was an episode that's so focused on Galadriel, on Halbrand,

805
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 5: on the Stranger, on Nourri, on Elrond, that we leave

806
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 5: the Southlanders. Who are you going to make this new

807
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 5: home somewhere that not Mordal? We don't see them. We

808
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:06,919
Speaker 5: don't see Aaron Dear Theo Bromwyn, and we also don't

809
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 5: see Duran, right, the big other major character who we

810
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 5: need to know how those rings are going to get forged,

811
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 5: the dwarf and rings. And guess who has a deep

812
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 5: secret that could easily be compromised. It's Duran who's keeping

813
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 5: the mining of the myth real secret from his father.

814
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 5: I think you're really onto something. I saw. This is

815
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 5: gonna sound like a weird diversion, but I saw Halloween

816
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 5: ends this. I'm sorry I was. I was a fan,

817
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 5: but that's because I like weird later stage sequels. I

818
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 5: think they swung for the fences. But aside from that,

819
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 5: it reveals something really funny, which is, at one point

820
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 5: it seems like Michael Myers like gets his powers from

821
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 5: stabbing people, Like he's really weak, but then he stabs

822
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 5: people and he gets really strong. And I love this

823
00:47:54,320 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 5: idea that for Souron, it's secrets. That's what powers him up,

824
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 5: that's what enables him to manipulate people, to corrupt people.

825
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 5: I think, like Keller Brimbaugh, his darkest secret was he

826
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 5: didn't know how to use the mythrill. He'd made everyone

827
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 5: do these terrible things. He'd tricked Elrond, he'd betrayed people,

828
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 5: he'd made promises. He didn't know how to forge it.

829
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 5: How brand aka Saron knew how to manipulate that, he

830
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 5: knew how to manipulate Galadriel. And I think that you're right,

831
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 5: this notion of secrets and how you can use them

832
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 5: to manipulate people or compromise them or take advantage of

833
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 5: them is very key to who he is. And I okay,

834
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 5: so this is that. I think the other big question

835
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:45,760
Speaker 5: that season two is probably going to have to start

836
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 5: with how brand he's wearing his cloak, he's walking towards us.

837
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 5: He's very dramatic. Adar is there with his like orc

838
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 5: children thinking he killed this guy at least we think. So,

839
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 5: what do you think that showdown is going to look like?

840
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: I think the debt is gonna be My sense is

841
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: that's gonna be a big part of season two.

842
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 2: Is this is this.

843
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 1: Dark lord that could have been in a dar you know,

844
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: a different kind of of evil, one who honestly is

845
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: more self absorbed, you know, like Sourn has that thing

846
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: that you know, I keep coming back to the first

847
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: words of this series, nothing is evil in the beginning.

848
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: And you know, Souron's pitch is a good one, which is, hey,

849
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: I'm gonna bring peace to this war torn land.

850
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 2: I'm gonna bring you know, like I'm gonna it's the

851
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 2: constability to the chaos. Yeah, and that sounds that sounds good.

852
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 1: And I think as we watch the subtle seduction, the

853
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: manipulation of various characters through this. It's always through their

854
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 1: desire to do something good. A Dar is fascinating because

855
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: a Dar obviously not a not a good creature, not

856
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: a good being. But once primarily it's so it seems

857
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: to just to not be involved in the larger politics

858
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: of Middle Earth. He's not looking to like rule. He's

859
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: just looking for some real estate for himself and the

860
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 1: creatures that he helped create.

861
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, who, by the way, were like horrible victims in

862
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 5: their own right from what it sounds like. So I

863
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 5: think he is such an interesting, complex person who I

864
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 5: wonder if that will be something that enables Saron to

865
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 5: compromise him, because Saron can say, oh, I promise you

866
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 5: can have the things that you want for your children.

867
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 5: I'm sorry for the mistakes I made before, basically making

868
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 5: the same offer that he made to Gladriel, you know,

869
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 5: but in a different way. We can lead together. We

870
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 5: can make a safe haven for your children. Blah blah blah.

871
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 5: He makes you know, he's the promiser, he's the giver

872
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 5: of gift. He tells you what you want to hear,

873
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 5: and then you know, takes it away. But I am

874
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 5: just so excited. Joseph moorele is so good as a DAR,

875
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 5: and Charlie Vickers is so good as how Brand. I

876
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,800
Speaker 5: really want to see that moment when a DAR knows

877
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 5: that he did not kill Saren, unless what if other

878
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 5: theory was right and they were actually in on it together,

879
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 5: because that will also be an incredible way.

880
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 2: That is the thing. So here's why.

881
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: If they are not in it together, a DAR feels

882
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:34,720
Speaker 1: like the one character in this show that strangely would

883
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 1: be Saron, would not be able to take him on

884
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 1: directly because a DAR clearly if the if he did

885
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 1: strike Saron down the first time, if that's true, then

886
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 1: the manipula he'll be, he'll.

887
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:51,879
Speaker 2: Be wise to the things that Saron does.

888
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 1: So if that is true, if they're not in it together,

889
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:03,760
Speaker 1: I see Saron picking off followers or gathering followers before

890
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: really trying to challenge a Dar at all, unless I

891
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 1: wonder if he slips into Mordor as Halbrand, as another

892
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 1: of these humans, as another of these humans who have

893
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: decided to cast their lot with a Dar, you know,

894
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: after being rejected by the eleanor citizens. Yeah, he doesn't know,

895
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: so I wonder if he goes as this kind of like, oh,

896
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,720
Speaker 1: I'm this lower status, I'm just like a regular human

897
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: like the rest of these your human followers, and slowly, slowly,

898
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: slowly begins to like take him down from the inside

899
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: that way. I wonder, I wonder if it's going to

900
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 1: be something like that, because a DAR will be you know,

901
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: whether or not a DAR believes that he's fully finished

902
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: off Saren.

903
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 2: If indeed, again that.

904
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 1: Is true, you have to feel like he'd be very

905
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: sensitive to any kind of hint that suren would be back.

906
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, I totally agree, And did you was there like

907
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 5: a moment now that you've watched it a few times,

908
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 5: which is obviously what we always have to do to

909
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 5: make sure we're like, is there a moment that really

910
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,720
Speaker 5: stands out from the finale? Is that like big wow

911
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 5: moment that kind of you think is gonna stick with you?

912
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:16,799
Speaker 3: Oh?

913
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 1: God, you know seeing it's it's weird, but like the

914
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: two moments one seeing Galadriel and Saron's reflection in the

915
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: water where even the full armor and she's because again

916
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: I gotta admit, you know who Souran is, you know

917
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: what he wants, you know what he's going to do.

918
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 1: But at the same time that sounds good, and from

919
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: Galadriel's perspective it must have been. Even though She's filled

920
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: with just a burning desire to kill this man, it

921
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 1: must have seemed tempting because now you can just be

922
00:53:55,840 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 1: done with this, And so that wasilling. And then second

923
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: and then seeing the rings.

924
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 2: Seeing the rings.

925
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: One get forged, and two when they were done with

926
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 1: the jewels, said in them, how beautiful they look. The

927
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 1: way you can look at them and know who is

928
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: going to own which ring, almost like they seem to

929
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: embody the personalities of the of the three characters who

930
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:22,720
Speaker 1: were going to have them.

931
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 2: That for me with the moments what about you?

932
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, the For me, I love like a dark seduction

933
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 5: story and definitely like especially when I was younger and

934
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 5: I didn't necessarily understand how analogous most villains were to

935
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 5: like fascists. I definitely was like a bad I was like, oh,

936
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 5: I like the bad guys, like oh oh this like

937
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:44,879
Speaker 5: you know Kylo Wren. That wasn't one of mine. If

938
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 5: I was like fifteen it would have been. But like

939
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 5: that kind of archetype. I loved that moment because, like

940
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 5: you said, they played it so well. One the visual

941
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 5: is chilling, too chilling. I just love the way that

942
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 5: sour On sells it. He makes it so believable, he

943
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 5: makes it so tempting, and for a minute you're just like, well,

944
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 5: maybe that would be safer for the Alves. Maybe there's

945
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:08,880
Speaker 5: a version where he doesn't do what he did before,

946
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 5: and that's really powerful.

947
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,280
Speaker 1: Well, up next, let's talk to Rings of Power writer

948
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 1: Jennifer Rogins. Now, we're absolutely thrilled to welcome Jennifer Hutchinson,

949
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: one of the writers behind Lord of the Rings, Rings

950
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 1: of Power and one of the writers of the series finale,

951
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 1: to the program. Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us.

952
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 4: Hi, thanks for having me.

953
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:44,359
Speaker 1: This is so exciting. I guess first of all, this

954
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: is obviously a show has been years in the making.

955
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: Is what does it feel like now that the episodes

956
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 1: are out season one? In the books, this multi year

957
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: process has come to its natural stopping point at least

958
00:55:59,520 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 1: for this chat.

959
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 2: How do you feel?

960
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 4: I feel it's such a complex feeling, because yes, it

961
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 4: felt like forever. It was almost four years to the

962
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 4: day that the Foes start like that it premiered for

963
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 4: when the Room started. Yeah, and it was this secret

964
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:16,839
Speaker 4: and feeling like I've been doing work. Please, I know

965
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 4: there's stuff happening that it felt like such a relief,

966
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 4: But then it felt like it just went by so fast,

967
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 4: like so that was also the thing. No, it's amazing.

968
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,720
Speaker 4: It's wonderful being able to talk about, you know, what

969
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 4: the story was and not have to keep secrets. I

970
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,399
Speaker 4: didn't even sell my husband anything, and so I can

971
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,720
Speaker 4: actually talk to him without making sure I'm really locked down,

972
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 4: you know.

973
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you talk about that, I mean, obviously we've

974
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 5: just been talking about the finale, which you know, came

975
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 5: out last week, and it was just so wonderful and

976
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 5: kind of really answered a lot of the questions in

977
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:56,840
Speaker 5: a way that felt very satisfying. So when it comes

978
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 5: to building in those secrets, you wrote episode two introduced Halbrand.

979
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 5: What was it like crafting that journey and then keeping

980
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 5: it a secret for you know, four years?

981
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 4: It was? It was I loved it. It was really

982
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 4: fun and I'm so excited that I got to introduce

983
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 4: Halbrand and then introduce Saurn like it just it worked

984
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 4: out so well to be able to write both those scenes,

985
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 4: the first scene with Gladril and then the reveal scene

986
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 4: with Galadriel and really hold those kind of you know

987
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 4: together in my heart.

988
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 5: And then it was just.

989
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 4: About really crafting Halbrin's story through the season and making

990
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 4: sure that we were really understanding who Halbrind was and

991
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 4: it felt like this is a real person, a real guy.

992
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 4: But then also if anybody goes back and watches the

993
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 4: season again knowing he's saw on that, you can see

994
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 4: and be like, Okay, this is saur On are what

995
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 4: are these decisions he's making? Does this make sense for

996
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 4: who he is at the time, you know, because you

997
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 4: don't want it to be like Wade Sorn would never

998
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 4: do that, you know, And so is really a balance.

999
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 4: You know. We had a few POV scenes that was

1000
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 4: just him and that was really tricky making sure that

1001
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 4: it felt right for both characters.

1002
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, a line that really stood out to us, and

1003
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 3: it's the first line in the series is nothing is

1004
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 3: evil in the beginning, which felt like the theme of

1005
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 3: this series in a lot of ways.

1006
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: How when did that idea emerge of what we're going

1007
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: to show, how even the most evil thing can start

1008
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 1: with a sincere instinct to try and do some something good.

1009
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, pretty early on. I mean, you know, the

1010
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 4: sort of where Soreen is in the second age until

1011
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 4: he pops up, you know, and says, let's make some rings.

1012
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 4: You know, it talks a little bit. It's right, it's

1013
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 4: a mystery. It's a mystery really, and it talks about

1014
00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 4: after the war, you know, he repented, but he was

1015
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 4: also prideful. There was that mix between him within him,

1016
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 4: and then he kind of disappears. So it really about like,

1017
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 4: what is the story that we could tell about this

1018
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 4: character that is more that is more complex than I

1019
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 4: am a bad guy and I want to do bad things.

1020
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 4: And we talked a lot about the concept of you know,

1021
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 4: good being a choice, you know, something that you choose

1022
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 4: to do with each decision, not something that you are,

1023
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:28,919
Speaker 4: and the same goes for bad. And so really when

1024
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 4: we were crafting his story, that was really a thing

1025
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 4: that we were thinking about a lot, sort of good

1026
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:37,479
Speaker 4: as a choice, it's who you choose to be, which

1027
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 4: was also mirrored in you know Nori and the stranger

1028
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 4: and kind of what she says to him, and it

1029
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 4: was nice to play that out. I always love that

1030
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 4: complexity of your right, like nothing is evil in the beginning,

1031
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 4: and nobody is only good or only bad. There's always

1032
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 4: some complexity in there.

1033
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, And the really wonderful reflection power Brand's story that

1034
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 5: you got to explore this season was Galadriel, who I

1035
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 5: just the writing with the two of them. I mean,

1036
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 5: we got to the panot on the episode and we

1037
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 5: were just like, it's too narratively rich for him to

1038
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:14,439
Speaker 5: not be sour on.

1039
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 6: At this point, because, like she, she's been so consumed

1040
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 6: by this need for revenge that she has welcomed in

1041
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 6: evil to her door and she has you know, become

1042
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 6: that corrupted elf that a dark kind of spoke to

1043
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 6: her and told her that she was Could you sort

1044
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 6: of talk.

1045
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 5: About their intertwined journeys because that balance of making both

1046
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:41,440
Speaker 5: characters completely engaging in their own rights but having to

1047
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 5: have them as reflections of each other is must have

1048
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 5: been such a difficult balance to strike.

1049
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 4: It was, but it was also really great to have

1050
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 4: both of them have really distinct journeys and points of

1051
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 4: view that weren't really in service of each other, but

1052
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 4: were you know, intertwined. You know, so much of Galadru

1053
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 4: was like, how do you what happens to you after

1054
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 4: that much war, that much loss? You know, the you know,

1055
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 4: I mean now we would say PTSD like like how

1056
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 4: how do you stop? And really that was her journey

1057
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 4: of like how do I stop and kind of reaching

1058
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 4: a point where it's like is it an external thing

1059
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 4: or is it an internal thing? And that struggle and

1060
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:30,080
Speaker 4: Halburn's character was really about I've given up. That's how

1061
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 4: I like, that's how I stopped. I just I've checked out.

1062
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 4: I've run away. That's it. And she's you know, he's

1063
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 4: running away, she's running toward and so finding a way

1064
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 4: that they're kind of helping each other on that journey,

1065
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 4: like like he's helping direct her focus while she's you know,

1066
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 4: kind of like pulling him back into the world. Not

1067
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 4: you know, maybe not a good idea, but.

1068
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 5: Like so.

1069
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 4: It was making sure that they really are coming from

1070
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 4: kind of opposite places. But the core of like what

1071
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 4: they're dealing with is like they went through this it's

1072
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 4: incredibly long, devastating war from different sides, and how would

1073
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 4: they how would they react differently to that.

1074
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 1: Gladrielle's choice after her temptation in this episode is so

1075
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 1: fascinating to unpack in that why does she decide in

1076
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 1: that moment to not be you know, when when Elron's

1077
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 1: like's where's aalbrand? Oh listen, we just can't ever deal

1078
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 1: with We're not treating with him ever again.

1079
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 2: If he does show right about it, let's move on.

1080
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 2: Let's keep it pushing.

1081
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 1: Guys, take us into We have our own ideas, mostly

1082
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 1: related to her centuries long obsession with getting revenge and

1083
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: how important that is to her and and her possible

1084
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 1: feeling like well, if I tell people what happened, I

1085
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 1: won't be able to get that revenge because they will say, well.

1086
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 2: You're off, You're off sour on duty from now on.

1087
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 1: But what would take us into her into her thinking

1088
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: in that moment, you know, and she's watching these things

1089
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 1: being before they were under the direct influence of this

1090
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 1: person who she now knows to be the dark Lord

1091
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 1: and not telling people.

1092
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just had this image of, you know, like,

1093
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 4: turn in your badge and your gun, you're off the case.

1094
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is definitely the vine. Yeah.

1095
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 4: So I think obviously, I think so much of it

1096
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 4: is open to people's interpretation. I lost people bringing their

1097
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 4: own read into things. For me, a lot part of

1098
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 4: it really is her feelings, uh, one of what did

1099
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 4: she do? Like complicity and like guilt and shame and

1100
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:51,439
Speaker 4: and you know, like questioning everything about herself. But that's

1101
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 4: also kind of in contrast to I think that she

1102
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 4: still has that feeling of like I have to be

1103
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:02,520
Speaker 4: the one to fix this. It really it really mirrors

1104
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 4: what Saurn's saying of like I can I'm the one

1105
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 4: who can fix the world with you. Like there's a

1106
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 4: reason why that's tempting for her because she really believes

1107
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 4: like it's my responsibility to fix this and I have to.

1108
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,640
Speaker 4: I can't necessarily let other people into the inner workings,

1109
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 4: you know.

1110
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:24,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, And you just mentioned like kind of the way

1111
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 5: people read into the show and the interpretation. You've said

1112
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 5: before that like your sweet spot as a writer is

1113
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 5: creating opportunities for fans to theorize and engage. And obviously

1114
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 5: with this show, this was like the ultimate version of that.

1115
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:38,439
Speaker 5: I mean I was covering it at IgM, so every

1116
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 5: week I'm coming up with stuff. You had so many

1117
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 5: different readings, so many people coming up with theories, trying

1118
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 5: to work things out, and just engaging with the show

1119
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 5: in a really passionate way. What was that like for you?

1120
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 4: I very gratifying. I Mean I'm a huge fan of

1121
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 4: so many works, and particularly genre works. And there are

1122
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 4: so many things that I would watch or read and

1123
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 4: or play, and I what I was getting out of

1124
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 4: it was not necessarily what the people who made it intended,

1125
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 4: but it created a space to like really connect in

1126
01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 4: a way that was personal for me. So seeing people

1127
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:19,760
Speaker 4: be able to do that with a show that I

1128
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 4: was part of is wonderful. Like so much of what

1129
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 4: I do is wanting to connect to people and make

1130
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 4: people feel seen and not alone and when people are

1131
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:31,680
Speaker 4: you know, some of it is I'm just coming up

1132
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 4: with theories, but there's also a lot of it of

1133
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 4: like you know, the relationship between Poppy and Nori and

1134
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:39,240
Speaker 4: really reading kind of their own life into that, and

1135
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 4: I love that stuff. And then the like who's Soura

1136
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,200
Speaker 4: And who's this person? Who's that? That's just fun because

1137
01:05:47,040 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 4: I don't know. I love talking to my friends about

1138
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 4: theorizing about shows that I watched. So the idea that

1139
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 4: like people are having fun doing that, you know, like

1140
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 4: that added value of the show. It's like it's not

1141
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 4: just watching the show, it's also you get to talk

1142
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,280
Speaker 4: to your friends about it. Like I think, as a writer,

1143
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:03,680
Speaker 4: I mean, why else would we do this?

1144
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, thinking about you know, the kind of feeling that

1145
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings, both the books including The Hobbit,

1146
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:14,360
Speaker 1: and then the.

1147
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 2: Movies of course give people.

1148
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:21,439
Speaker 1: This show was so adept at really capturing those core

1149
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: feelings of friendship, you know, whether it's the Harfoots or

1150
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:28,840
Speaker 1: whether it's ele Rond Duran, and that feeling of adventure,

1151
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 1: the feeling of your choices really mattering, like making the

1152
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 1: hard choice and not the easy choice, and that mattering.

1153
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 1: How how much did you talk about and think about

1154
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:45,600
Speaker 1: like boiling those kind of things down into you know,

1155
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 1: the kind of elemental pieces that you would then kind

1156
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:51,439
Speaker 1: of lay down in this show so that it felt

1157
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 1: because it really just feels so of a piece with

1158
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 1: the books and the movies.

1159
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:01,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, which we obviously you know, we read from the

1160
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:04,600
Speaker 4: books every day, and we were all heavily inspired by

1161
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 4: the movies as well. It was I remember early on

1162
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 4: like really when we came in, you know, PATRICKA.

1163
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:12,440
Speaker 3: J D.

1164
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:14,160
Speaker 4: Saying, you know, what does what does Lord of the

1165
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 4: Rings mean to you? You know what is when you

1166
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 4: think about a story, what kind of story would you

1167
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 4: tell in this world? And then really coming up with

1168
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 4: so many people were like, you know, really the related

1169
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,960
Speaker 4: the friendships and you know, even the smallest among us

1170
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:31,320
Speaker 4: can can change the world, and which to me is

1171
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 4: really the core so much of what Tolkien's saying was

1172
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 4: saying and really wanting to lean into that. You know,

1173
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:42,240
Speaker 4: his work was so inspired, you know, so heavily influenced

1174
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:45,240
Speaker 4: by his time, particularly in the war, and those relationships

1175
01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 4: he built uh with with his you know, comrades, and

1176
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 4: really bringing that in was important. That feeling of like

1177
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 4: those connections you make with people in like the hardest times,

1178
01:07:57,320 --> 01:07:59,919
Speaker 4: you know, the times when everything seems lost, it's really

1179
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 4: hope and connection comes through our friendships and our relationships

1180
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 4: with each other.

1181
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's one of my fat I was such a

1182
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 5: huge fan of The Half Foots and kind of I

1183
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 5: remember the first episode. The moment that really got me

1184
01:08:13,640 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 5: was with the food and the blackberries. Those cozy parts

1185
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:21,639
Speaker 5: of tolkiena are such an important part to so many people.

1186
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 5: What is it like, you know, Jason talked about boiling

1187
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:27,320
Speaker 5: it down in the importance of getting right. How is

1188
01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 5: it to balance these things that feel so tonally different,

1189
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 5: the slow moments, the food, the coziness, the friendship, the

1190
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 5: smaller what seemed to be smaller steaks. With the arrival

1191
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:43,759
Speaker 5: of souron with these kind of epic adventures men falling

1192
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 5: from the sky. How do you go about balancing these

1193
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 5: kind of different vital parts of the story.

1194
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:54,960
Speaker 4: Well, my favorite stories are always the ones that feel like,

1195
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 4: even in these fantastic worlds, because I said, as I said,

1196
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:00,080
Speaker 4: I'm a big genre fan, that feel kind of of

1197
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 4: the of our world, that feel grounded. And I always

1198
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:05,679
Speaker 4: say that like, even in the worst times in my life,

1199
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:08,840
Speaker 4: there's always been light. There's always been you know, like

1200
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:12,800
Speaker 4: just something really funny happens, or like a meal or

1201
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 4: like some some moment of connection. Uh So for me,

1202
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:20,519
Speaker 4: it really was like how how would life feel? You know,

1203
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 4: like it's it's not just one thing, it's all these things.

1204
01:09:23,320 --> 01:09:27,160
Speaker 4: And also, you know, when you're doing something super intense,

1205
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:32,040
Speaker 4: like you need that breather of you know, like something comforting,

1206
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:36,840
Speaker 4: something like uh core, that that that everyone can kind

1207
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:39,599
Speaker 4: of relate to more. You know, the elves are they're

1208
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 4: they're so you know, bird's eye view of everything, and

1209
01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 4: so having the harfoots, and I would say having the

1210
01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 4: dwarves as well, and thee and even the humans where

1211
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:52,240
Speaker 4: it's much more of like a focused kind of world

1212
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:56,680
Speaker 4: is really what helps ground it. Uh, I love stuff too.

1213
01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 4: That's like kind of tonally you move around. And having

1214
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:04,840
Speaker 4: having worked on my previous show, A Better Call Saul,

1215
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 4: that does a lot of tonal shifts as well, between

1216
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:10,720
Speaker 4: the star storytelling and more personal stories, and so I

1217
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 4: felt uniquely suited in that regard as.

1218
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:19,479
Speaker 1: Well, thinking about your your career from the Breaking Bad

1219
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 1: the Strain, Better Call Saul now Rings of Power. Rings

1220
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:29,200
Speaker 1: of Power has such a specific kind of melody and

1221
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 1: rhythm to the language all you know, whether it's the elves,

1222
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:35,840
Speaker 1: the humans, the dwarfs, whoever, they all have, it's such

1223
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 1: a specific music to the way they speak.

1224
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 6: Uh.

1225
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:42,880
Speaker 1: How did you go about capturing that? And was there

1226
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 1: a moment where you're like, Okay, I think I think

1227
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 1: we've got it. I think we've I think it feels

1228
01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:48,960
Speaker 1: like Tolkien.

1229
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:50,280
Speaker 3: Uh.

1230
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:52,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was very That was maybe one of the

1231
01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 4: most challenging parts because I've always written contemporary for the

1232
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 4: most part, and I my dialogue style is very like

1233
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:07,400
Speaker 4: plain spoken, grounded, you know, and so that was definitely

1234
01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:10,519
Speaker 4: hard for me. The way I really attacked the script

1235
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 4: was writing it kind of in plain language in the

1236
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 4: first go through, so I had the meaning down and

1237
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,000
Speaker 4: then getting finding my way into those voices and then'

1238
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 4: once Patrick and JD you know, were giving us the

1239
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:25,720
Speaker 4: pilot script and really giving us the example of kind

1240
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:30,559
Speaker 4: of where that dialogue sweet spot was. That gave us

1241
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:33,320
Speaker 4: more of a target to hit, and that was constantly

1242
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 4: evolving as the show went on. It's funny there was

1243
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:39,200
Speaker 4: a moment where I felt like I had kind of

1244
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:42,720
Speaker 4: unlocked something. And this is gonna sound silly, but with

1245
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 4: the Elves, the inclination with the Elves, the temptation is

1246
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:49,760
Speaker 4: just make them sound very fancy all the time, and

1247
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 4: but but that can be essentially meaningless. And it made

1248
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:55,439
Speaker 4: me think of when I was first writing Gus spring

1249
01:11:56,280 --> 01:12:00,519
Speaker 4: on Breaking Bad, because I would write him overly formal,

1250
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:02,880
Speaker 4: and that was the first note I got was like,

1251
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:05,320
Speaker 4: that's not that's not who he is. And I realized,

1252
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:07,559
Speaker 4: it's not that he's super formal, it's that he doesn't

1253
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:11,720
Speaker 4: waste a word. And you know, and the Elves they

1254
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:14,960
Speaker 4: say a lot of words, for sure, but there really

1255
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:18,439
Speaker 4: is intention behind everything they're saying. And I started like

1256
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:20,800
Speaker 4: thinking of Gus when I would write the Elves, and

1257
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 4: it helped me kind of reach that, like because he

1258
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:27,840
Speaker 4: was also working from like an overhead view of the world,

1259
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:31,439
Speaker 4: like he was a long term planner, you know, as

1260
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 4: the Elves are, and that really helped me unlock that.

1261
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:37,920
Speaker 4: Obviously they don't sound the same, but the vibe was

1262
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:40,639
Speaker 4: very like it was. It allowed me to feel like, Okay,

1263
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:43,000
Speaker 4: maybe I can actually I think I could do this,

1264
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:46,360
Speaker 4: and and it started to click in more.

1265
01:12:46,840 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 5: Speaking of unexpected like transferable skills from the world of

1266
01:12:50,439 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 5: like the equal Soul and break those off stories like

1267
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:58,040
Speaker 5: which a lot of the haw of them and the

1268
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:03,840
Speaker 5: kind of investment comes from these unexpected relationships and friendships

1269
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:07,559
Speaker 5: that kind of defined the arcs of the characters. Was

1270
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 5: that something that you felt helped you when it came

1271
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:13,040
Speaker 5: to shaping some of the relationships that we see in

1272
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:15,800
Speaker 5: this show, because the ones that have really broken out

1273
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 5: are those unexpected Stranger and Nori, Elrond and Duran obviously

1274
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:22,160
Speaker 5: not it. There's a tradition of that in a lot

1275
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 5: of the Rings, but in the Cannon, it's unexpected. They're

1276
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:27,040
Speaker 5: not supposed to be friends. Galadriel and howbrand was that

1277
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:30,440
Speaker 5: something that you kind of felt like you were unexpectedly

1278
01:13:30,479 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 5: suited to as well?

1279
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 4: Yes, And it's funny because you know, Nori and the

1280
01:13:36,439 --> 01:13:39,519
Speaker 4: Stranger and l Run and Duran. You know, I also

1281
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:42,960
Speaker 4: introduced el Ron and Duran's storyline into and those were

1282
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:45,840
Speaker 4: those were like my most comfortable places to be, Yeah,

1283
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 4: when I was writing, and those actually flowed for me

1284
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 4: really naturally, you know the way the way those especially

1285
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:53,320
Speaker 4: Poppy and Nori like that's just me and that's just

1286
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 4: me and my best friend.

1287
01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:57,000
Speaker 5: So yes, in a.

1288
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 4: Lot of way. Yes, in a lot of ways. I

1289
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:03,759
Speaker 4: totally brought so much of that character work and the

1290
01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 4: relationship work from that world, from the sort of breaking

1291
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 4: bad and better call Saull world of taking like looking

1292
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 4: just like a step deeper into those relationships and finding

1293
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:19,240
Speaker 4: ways of like, as you said, how do people who

1294
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:23,920
Speaker 4: are very opposed seem very opposed? What's the common thread

1295
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:26,960
Speaker 4: between them? And how do you find that? I just

1296
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:29,240
Speaker 4: love character and doing like kind of deep dives on

1297
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 4: character and being able to do that in this world

1298
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 4: was really nice. The moments that we were able to

1299
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:36,639
Speaker 4: do that because it is a show and not movies,

1300
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 4: it did make me feel like, oh, okay, here I am.

1301
01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:43,639
Speaker 4: This is this is my skill set bringing it over

1302
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:45,479
Speaker 4: like I could do the other stuff too, but this

1303
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:48,920
Speaker 4: is really such a comfortable place to be is just

1304
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:53,320
Speaker 4: figuring out what makes them tick and and the true

1305
01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 4: like strength of friendship and how strong those feelings are,

1306
01:14:57,080 --> 01:14:59,640
Speaker 4: you know, sometimes even more than romantic relationships.

1307
01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:04,719
Speaker 1: Oh that really, I mean all of that stuff rings

1308
01:15:04,760 --> 01:15:09,160
Speaker 1: so true watching the show. I think people sometimes who

1309
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:12,320
Speaker 1: who you know, watch TV and you know, see the

1310
01:15:12,320 --> 01:15:19,760
Speaker 1: credits role, maybe don't understand how collaborative of storytelling form

1311
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:24,840
Speaker 1: television really is. So like, as you're breaking story, you're

1312
01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:26,360
Speaker 1: writing the scripts, and then all of a sudden, your

1313
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:29,600
Speaker 1: your cast starts coming in. How does it begin to

1314
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:34,160
Speaker 1: change as you begin adding this amazing cast of talented

1315
01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:36,439
Speaker 1: performance to this production.

1316
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:41,800
Speaker 4: Uh, yeah, it is. It is always a fascinating part

1317
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:43,680
Speaker 4: of the process of like a thing that's lived in

1318
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:46,400
Speaker 4: your head and your or you're you know, the writer's

1319
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:49,840
Speaker 4: room head, the sort of collective group, uh, kind of

1320
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:52,559
Speaker 4: sending it out into the world and having it be

1321
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:56,720
Speaker 4: put on his feet. It's always, I it's always a

1322
01:15:56,760 --> 01:15:58,599
Speaker 4: great part of the process when the actors come in

1323
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:01,960
Speaker 4: because they bring that into interpretation and because they're focused

1324
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:05,479
Speaker 4: really solely on one character, you know, they're they're able

1325
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:09,200
Speaker 4: to really kind of like get into them and and

1326
01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:12,960
Speaker 4: sort of bring that point of view into it, and

1327
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:15,000
Speaker 4: you learn sort of the rhythm of the way that

1328
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:20,719
Speaker 4: they talk and kind of how they embody that character,

1329
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:24,160
Speaker 4: and it definitely informs what you're writing. You know, when

1330
01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:27,719
Speaker 4: we wrote season one, we had not really cast people,

1331
01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:32,080
Speaker 4: and so going forward, when you're writing in season two,

1332
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:34,160
Speaker 4: and this is like all shows, you're able to hear them.

1333
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:37,080
Speaker 4: You're able to like visualize the actor in that place,

1334
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:40,320
Speaker 4: and it makes it easier to write them because you

1335
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:43,360
Speaker 4: know who you're writing, and that's been every show. You

1336
01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:46,280
Speaker 4: start to just hear them in your head. As opposed

1337
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:48,439
Speaker 4: to being like, what would this person say here, it's

1338
01:16:48,479 --> 01:16:51,400
Speaker 4: like you hear that actor you know telling you.

1339
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:55,360
Speaker 5: And sort of like, I guess the sort of as

1340
01:16:55,400 --> 01:16:58,000
Speaker 5: a natural extension on that. How does it feel you've

1341
01:16:58,040 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 5: had this thing that's in your head you see, you know,

1342
01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:03,080
Speaker 5: production casting. How does it feel when a moment, say,

1343
01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:04,800
Speaker 5: this is a moment we were just talking about a

1344
01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:07,240
Speaker 5: lot when we were talking about the finale, but you know,

1345
01:17:07,320 --> 01:17:10,679
Speaker 5: you write a moment that is so vital, like when

1346
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:15,280
Speaker 5: Souron shows Galadria what their future could be. This him

1347
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:17,679
Speaker 5: and his armor and her standing next to him. We're

1348
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:20,320
Speaker 5: both like obsessed with that moment. What did it feel

1349
01:17:20,360 --> 01:17:23,720
Speaker 5: like for you you write it, the show is made,

1350
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:25,759
Speaker 5: How does it feel to see it come to life

1351
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,000
Speaker 5: within the context of the world when you see the

1352
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 5: finished episode.

1353
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:37,680
Speaker 4: Amazing. It's it's getting to see the show in its

1354
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:40,760
Speaker 4: final form, because even if I saw cuts, obviously yeah,

1355
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:42,960
Speaker 4: not everything was on screen yet because there was so

1356
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:48,040
Speaker 4: many wonderful visual effects work to be done. It was incredible.

1357
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 4: I feel like the what you know, the directors and

1358
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:55,759
Speaker 4: all of the artists and crafts people on the show

1359
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:58,840
Speaker 4: and everybody who worked on the show, they just brought

1360
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:04,760
Speaker 4: such an amazing level of work and and interpretation and

1361
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:08,320
Speaker 4: just life to the show. So seeing those things and

1362
01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:10,640
Speaker 4: how much you know, obviously you have a vision in

1363
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:12,720
Speaker 4: your head and then when you see it and it's

1364
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:15,840
Speaker 4: like so much better than you could have ever imagined.

1365
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:20,120
Speaker 4: That's incredible. That's incredibly gratifying. And that and especially that

1366
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:23,040
Speaker 4: scene with that final confrontation and that shot that you

1367
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:26,800
Speaker 4: talk about, which when I'm like not worried about posting spoilers,

1368
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:29,120
Speaker 4: is going to be my Twitter banner because it's such

1369
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:32,400
Speaker 4: a it's such a beautiful it's such a beautiful shot

1370
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:35,960
Speaker 4: and it encapsulates what he's what we were trying to do, like,

1371
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:36,680
Speaker 4: that's the thing.

1372
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:38,200
Speaker 2: Visually, there you.

1373
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:39,960
Speaker 4: Go, that's the story. And we'd always talked about the

1374
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:43,439
Speaker 4: reflection and he would show her that was that was

1375
01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:45,559
Speaker 4: in the story we were telling in the script. But

1376
01:18:45,720 --> 01:18:50,439
Speaker 4: to see how they pulled it off, uh, is is

1377
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:53,240
Speaker 4: a totally different thing. And I every episode that I watched,

1378
01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:55,599
Speaker 4: I felt that is seeing them and being like, oh

1379
01:18:55,640 --> 01:18:57,920
Speaker 4: my god, look at cousin Doom, like look at these things,

1380
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:00,160
Speaker 4: like look at this, look at these costumes. You know,

1381
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:03,160
Speaker 4: like you just you just feel in that world and

1382
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 4: and you know, it's it's so gratifying and and it

1383
01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:09,840
Speaker 4: just it made me very.

1384
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:14,720
Speaker 1: Happy take us into the Stranger fake out because it

1385
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:18,280
Speaker 1: is so well timed and it's good.

1386
01:19:18,400 --> 01:19:22,080
Speaker 2: It just seemed to have such.

1387
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:27,599
Speaker 1: As anticipatory energy, understanding that Okay, by now the fans,

1388
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:29,719
Speaker 1: the audience is going to be in a fever pitch

1389
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:33,560
Speaker 1: wondering who these who these two men are Halbrand and

1390
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:37,720
Speaker 1: the Stranger, wondering which one of them might be sour on,

1391
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:41,200
Speaker 1: and take us into the decision to to throw that

1392
01:19:41,280 --> 01:19:44,520
Speaker 1: curveball in essentially at the top of the episode.

1393
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:46,280
Speaker 5: That's such a great code. I've been.

1394
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:53,280
Speaker 4: Yes. So what I like about that kind of structure

1395
01:19:53,439 --> 01:19:56,040
Speaker 4: is that I feel like it he really is serving

1396
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:58,679
Speaker 4: the stranger story and it has that sort of added

1397
01:19:58,720 --> 01:20:01,080
Speaker 4: bonus of being that red hair of like, oh wait,

1398
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:02,479
Speaker 4: I guess you saw it. I mean, I'm sure a

1399
01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:03,840
Speaker 4: lot of people are like, it's too early in the

1400
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 4: episode like this, like there's no there's no way, there's

1401
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:11,200
Speaker 4: no way. But what it does is it really serves

1402
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:14,000
Speaker 4: to me, it serves a stranger story of them saying like,

1403
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:17,560
Speaker 4: you know, his story is such a mirror of halbrind

1404
01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 4: hal Ron's. Is that you know, like you're bad, You're bad,

1405
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:23,840
Speaker 4: You're a danger. That's what he's been worried about. Am

1406
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:26,599
Speaker 4: I a danger? Am I peril? And then these these

1407
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:30,240
Speaker 4: mystics say you are you're you're your Lord's a on,

1408
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:33,840
Speaker 4: You're a bad guy. And so you see him kind

1409
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:36,479
Speaker 4: of absorb that. And then in that in that moment

1410
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:38,960
Speaker 4: with Nori and the Heartfoots when they come to rescue

1411
01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:41,400
Speaker 4: them and she has that thing of like, no, you choose,

1412
01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:45,800
Speaker 4: you choose who you are. I feel like if you

1413
01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:48,120
Speaker 4: hadn't had that moment at the top of the episode

1414
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:50,920
Speaker 4: where it was like confirmation you're the bad guy. Then

1415
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:52,960
Speaker 4: I don't think that necessarily would have worked as well.

1416
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:55,639
Speaker 4: And then it just has, Like I said, that sort

1417
01:20:55,640 --> 01:20:58,000
Speaker 4: of added bonus of throwing you off a little bit,

1418
01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:01,559
Speaker 4: but no, I thought, I really, you know, because because

1419
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:05,440
Speaker 4: Gladriel's telling Halbrin you're a good guy. You're a good guy,

1420
01:21:05,439 --> 01:21:08,120
Speaker 4: you know, and then he's like, yeah, I mean am

1421
01:21:08,160 --> 01:21:11,320
Speaker 4: I So I think it works. I think it works

1422
01:21:11,400 --> 01:21:13,080
Speaker 4: really well. And then you start the episode with the

1423
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:15,599
Speaker 4: stranger You're sorry, and then you end the episode with Halbrin,

1424
01:21:15,720 --> 01:21:16,439
Speaker 4: hey I'm sor on.

1425
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:21,120
Speaker 5: So yeah, it's such a great reflection and such an

1426
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:24,280
Speaker 5: enjoyable moment, and I love it because you mentioned that

1427
01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:25,920
Speaker 5: you're like, you know, a lot of people know like

1428
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:28,839
Speaker 5: Presty's TV, it's too early, but to me it reminded

1429
01:21:28,840 --> 01:21:31,360
Speaker 5: me more of like especially like British TV in the nineties,

1430
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 5: where if there was a cliffhanger, it would usually just

1431
01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:35,479
Speaker 5: be answered at the beginning of the next episode, even

1432
01:21:35,520 --> 01:21:37,880
Speaker 5: like The Batman sixty six like show, it's like, you

1433
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:39,640
Speaker 5: can't make people wait too long. But that's not the

1434
01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:41,719
Speaker 5: world we live in now. But that was really fun,

1435
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:45,080
Speaker 5: you know, we're talking about the Stranger. Let's talk about

1436
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:48,200
Speaker 5: so we learned that he is not sour on great

1437
01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:51,280
Speaker 5: journey for him. Love that, and you know, we hear

1438
01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:53,559
Speaker 5: the whisper of he's the other one, we hear Stari

1439
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:55,680
Speaker 5: decider of a wizard. Could you talk a little bit

1440
01:21:55,720 --> 01:21:59,559
Speaker 5: about his journey with Nori as it will go on

1441
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 5: when they to Rune and kind of just talk about

1442
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:03,400
Speaker 5: what you're most excited about for the Stranger.

1443
01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:10,920
Speaker 4: I am really excited about the things I'm really excited about,

1444
01:22:11,000 --> 01:22:14,240
Speaker 4: or kind of the way we've structured his story where

1445
01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:17,160
Speaker 4: we're discovering who he is as he does as opposed

1446
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 4: to having that knowledge and then he figures it out.

1447
01:22:19,800 --> 01:22:22,599
Speaker 4: I love learning along with the character, So I'm really

1448
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:25,280
Speaker 4: excited to kind of do that as as he goes forward.

1449
01:22:25,280 --> 01:22:28,080
Speaker 4: And I am so excited about going to Rune, which

1450
01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:34,799
Speaker 4: really has not necessarily been explored, you know, that much before.

1451
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:37,200
Speaker 4: And then the other thing I'm really excited about is

1452
01:22:37,240 --> 01:22:39,880
Speaker 4: really Nori. You know, she's on She's wanted to be

1453
01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:42,400
Speaker 4: on an adventure. She's on an adventure. Now, Like what

1454
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:44,559
Speaker 4: is that going to look like for her? You know,

1455
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:46,880
Speaker 4: it's that classic thing of like you got what you

1456
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:50,519
Speaker 4: wanted now what and so having the privilege to be

1457
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:54,799
Speaker 4: able to explore then now what is really exciting.

1458
01:22:56,240 --> 01:22:59,479
Speaker 1: Well, Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us. This

1459
01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:03,439
Speaker 1: has been a fit fantastic conversation, and congratulations on a

1460
01:23:03,479 --> 01:23:05,479
Speaker 1: fantastic show, a really wonderful show.

1461
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:06,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, thank you.

1462
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:08,840
Speaker 5: We're such big fans. We're so glad you came to

1463
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:10,640
Speaker 5: join us, and we can't wait to see more. So

1464
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:11,879
Speaker 5: thank you, son, Wait.

1465
01:23:12,840 --> 01:23:14,880
Speaker 4: Thank you thanks for having me. This was so much fun.

1466
01:23:15,120 --> 01:23:18,000
Speaker 1: Thank you to Jennifer Hutchison. Up next, House of the Dragon,

1467
01:23:18,439 --> 01:23:25,839
Speaker 1: episode nine. If listening to Crooked shows in your podcast

1468
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:28,120
Speaker 1: app is simply not enough, it's not enough.

1469
01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:29,519
Speaker 2: You need more and more and more.

1470
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:33,200
Speaker 1: Check out bub Up Up, Up, but Up Up Up.

1471
01:23:33,360 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 1: Crooked Radio take over every weekend in October on Serious

1472
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:41,600
Speaker 1: XM Progress on the Serious XM app.

1473
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:43,759
Speaker 2: It's a great new way to hear.

1474
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:46,640
Speaker 1: And discover all the great voices and shows across the

1475
01:23:46,680 --> 01:23:50,719
Speaker 1: Crooked universe ahead of the midterms, all day each weekend,

1476
01:23:51,840 --> 01:23:55,759
Speaker 1: and Crooked listeners can get to four months four buds free,

1477
01:23:56,520 --> 01:23:59,040
Speaker 1: so you can check it out at SERIOUSXM dot com

1478
01:23:59,040 --> 01:23:59,639
Speaker 1: slash Crooked.

1479
01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:14,559
Speaker 3: We're stepping out of the airlock and into the small

1480
01:24:14,680 --> 01:24:17,120
Speaker 3: council chamber, where you know.

1481
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:19,759
Speaker 1: Not nice things are afoot. We're here to talk about

1482
01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:22,599
Speaker 1: House of the Dragon, Episode nine, The Green Council written

1483
01:24:22,640 --> 01:24:27,880
Speaker 1: by Sarah Hessen, directed by Claire Kilner Folks. The King

1484
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:35,440
Speaker 1: is dead, Long live the King. Rip two King, Zarah.

1485
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:35,559
Speaker 2: I r ip to that man.

1486
01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:41,719
Speaker 1: Word is kind of trickling out amongst the household staff.

1487
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:46,680
Speaker 1: A young page tells Allison's headmaiden, Natalia. She goes and

1488
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:51,040
Speaker 1: tells the queen. The queen quickly tells Otto, and he's

1489
01:24:51,120 --> 01:24:54,080
Speaker 1: like immediately he swings into action. He wants to know

1490
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:58,600
Speaker 1: who knows, And all of a sudden, Alison breaks this

1491
01:24:58,600 --> 01:25:00,519
Speaker 1: a little bit of news to him. Oh yeah, the

1492
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:04,639
Speaker 1: last time I saw him, he said that Egon Egon

1493
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:09,599
Speaker 1: should be king. Otto doesn't ask which one? Otto doesn't ask? Okay, Well,

1494
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:12,439
Speaker 1: he wasn't the most lucive guy, considering like he was

1495
01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:16,120
Speaker 1: on the edge of death for an x amount of

1496
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:19,840
Speaker 1: years and also like dope to the gills on milk

1497
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:22,559
Speaker 1: of the poppy? Could he have been talking about any

1498
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:25,680
Speaker 1: one of the numerous other Eggons throughout history? He just

1499
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:28,080
Speaker 1: is like, good, great, we're running with that.

1500
01:25:28,840 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, And he doesn't he doesn't be like, oh, that's

1501
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:33,760
Speaker 5: very interesting that you were just the only person there.

1502
01:25:34,080 --> 01:25:36,960
Speaker 5: In fact, he must just think his luck has come

1503
01:25:37,360 --> 01:25:40,479
Speaker 5: that in that moment, he just thinks everything is working

1504
01:25:40,479 --> 01:25:43,759
Speaker 5: in his favor, because, as we quickly find out, as always,

1505
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:45,520
Speaker 5: this motherfucker's been planning.

1506
01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:48,720
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's the point I wanted to make too.

1507
01:25:48,720 --> 01:25:50,360
Speaker 1: I saw a lot of people saying like, oh, this

1508
01:25:50,439 --> 01:25:52,400
Speaker 1: is this is like a plot point out of like

1509
01:25:52,439 --> 01:25:56,680
Speaker 1: Three's Company, with this kind of comedy of misdirection and miscommunication.

1510
01:25:56,840 --> 01:26:00,160
Speaker 1: I agree that there is something of that, But I

1511
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:06,519
Speaker 1: also think, do you really think that if Alison had

1512
01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:10,920
Speaker 1: never heard the whole Eggon, you know, babbling from the

1513
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:13,439
Speaker 1: dying king, that Otto would have just been like, I'll

1514
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:16,240
Speaker 1: forget all the plans we've been laying for decades and years.

1515
01:26:16,320 --> 01:26:18,160
Speaker 1: Let's just call it all off and we're not going.

1516
01:26:18,439 --> 01:26:21,320
Speaker 5: He would have gone with it anyway.

1517
01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:27,200
Speaker 3: This little thing is just one small, little other piece

1518
01:26:27,280 --> 01:26:30,080
Speaker 3: that he can then use to argue that this is

1519
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:30,719
Speaker 3: all legit.

1520
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:33,760
Speaker 1: The King said, so there were no witnesses. That's absolutely true,

1521
01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:37,200
Speaker 1: and there are multiple Eggons alive right now, but he.

1522
01:26:37,240 --> 01:26:39,000
Speaker 2: Means this one take my word for it.

1523
01:26:39,200 --> 01:26:42,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, I actually think, you know, I am, I

1524
01:26:42,280 --> 01:26:45,840
Speaker 5: am quickly becoming a true Allison apologist. And I just

1525
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:48,479
Speaker 5: think that the way that they have treated her in

1526
01:26:48,479 --> 01:26:50,680
Speaker 5: this show and given her so much more context and

1527
01:26:50,840 --> 01:26:55,400
Speaker 5: meaning is actually really just so wonderful. And Olivia Cook

1528
01:26:55,479 --> 01:26:57,800
Speaker 5: is so great, So you know, it's a life and

1529
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:00,000
Speaker 5: I think this episode actually does a lot of really

1530
01:27:00,160 --> 01:27:04,400
Speaker 5: great work to show that while it seemed it may

1531
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:07,519
Speaker 5: have seemed kind of like, oh, you know, now Allison

1532
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:09,720
Speaker 5: doesn't you know, she's not a bad person because she

1533
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:12,960
Speaker 5: thinks of the prophecy, and that is really just a

1534
01:27:13,000 --> 01:27:16,360
Speaker 5: small plot point for Alison that adds conflict to her

1535
01:27:16,439 --> 01:27:20,200
Speaker 5: story and changes the reasons that she pursues the thing

1536
01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:22,400
Speaker 5: she would pursues because, as we find out in the

1537
01:27:22,439 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 5: Small Council meeting, this was always going to happen. It

1538
01:27:26,320 --> 01:27:29,880
Speaker 5: was always going to happen. It's just now there's a

1539
01:27:29,960 --> 01:27:34,799
Speaker 5: tiny part of Allison's brain that believes it's what's supposed

1540
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:35,240
Speaker 5: to happen.

1541
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:39,280
Speaker 1: Small Council is hastily assembled. Otto has a strict no in,

1542
01:27:39,680 --> 01:27:42,000
Speaker 1: no one in, no one outrule. I want to shout out,

1543
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:46,479
Speaker 1: just very quickly, the Master of Ships, Thailand Lanister, who

1544
01:27:46,720 --> 01:27:48,600
Speaker 1: is a dumb motherfucker.

1545
01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:49,280
Speaker 3: You know.

1546
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:55,439
Speaker 2: It's like the king has looked dead.

1547
01:27:55,920 --> 01:27:59,040
Speaker 1: He's got no arm, he's got one eye, he's like,

1548
01:27:59,160 --> 01:28:01,759
Speaker 1: can't breathe, he's been in bed for years.

1549
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:05,680
Speaker 3: The fact you get called, yeah, you get called to

1550
01:28:05,720 --> 01:28:10,240
Speaker 3: an emergency meeting early in the morning, and you're like, hey,

1551
01:28:10,320 --> 01:28:11,120
Speaker 3: what's happening.

1552
01:28:11,120 --> 01:28:13,080
Speaker 1: Why did you get Come on, you know what's happening.

1553
01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:16,720
Speaker 1: Don't don't be obtuse anyway. Otto is like, hey, so

1554
01:28:16,760 --> 01:28:20,000
Speaker 1: we grieve for Visara's but it's time to get down

1555
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:25,560
Speaker 1: to business. After Otto has just shared Allison's interpretation of

1556
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:30,000
Speaker 1: Visarah's last words, Tayland says, then we may proceed now

1557
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:33,000
Speaker 1: with the assurance of his blessing on our long laid plans.

1558
01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:33,960
Speaker 2: And now.

1559
01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:39,040
Speaker 1: This is a great moment because you realize, as Allison

1560
01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:43,519
Speaker 1: is realizing how long these plans have been in motion for,

1561
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:48,920
Speaker 1: you're realizing that Allison really is this naive. You forget

1562
01:28:48,920 --> 01:28:51,959
Speaker 1: that she's been put in this position since.

1563
01:28:51,720 --> 01:28:56,400
Speaker 3: She was a team a child. Otto is her protector

1564
01:28:56,439 --> 01:29:00,559
Speaker 3: of the person who she trusts. It is just now,

1565
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:04,080
Speaker 3: just now that she realizes, oh wait a second, they've

1566
01:29:04,080 --> 01:29:08,000
Speaker 3: been hiding things from me. They've been planning things that

1567
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:09,839
Speaker 3: I have no idea about.

1568
01:29:10,160 --> 01:29:13,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, this episode is an awakening for Allison, and I

1569
01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:15,599
Speaker 5: wish it couldn't have taken this long. But there are

1570
01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:18,639
Speaker 5: some really brilliant stuff here where we just learn about

1571
01:29:18,640 --> 01:29:21,920
Speaker 5: how she has been manipulated and abused and exploited by

1572
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:25,440
Speaker 5: every man around her for as long as we can imagine.

1573
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:28,720
Speaker 5: And there's only one person who will be real with

1574
01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:31,400
Speaker 5: her this episode, and it is Renie. And it is

1575
01:29:31,479 --> 01:29:33,479
Speaker 5: a really great moment when we get.

1576
01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:35,120
Speaker 1: To oh my god, one of the best speeches in

1577
01:29:35,160 --> 01:29:37,880
Speaker 1: the entire show, Lyman Beesberry master coin.

1578
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:43,639
Speaker 5: Only real one, only Lord, I will not.

1579
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:47,160
Speaker 1: Have this, he says, and he calls egg on an

1580
01:29:47,160 --> 01:29:50,800
Speaker 1: Impostor points out that, hey, remember when the realm swore

1581
01:29:50,880 --> 01:29:53,120
Speaker 1: Fieldy the wever near it in the fucking throne room.

1582
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:56,160
Speaker 1: He tears ribbons the claim that the king, at the

1583
01:29:56,240 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 1: last minute, on his deathbed, with no witnesses except the

1584
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:00,840
Speaker 1: the boy's.

1585
01:30:00,560 --> 01:30:02,599
Speaker 2: Mother, changed his mind.

1586
01:30:02,720 --> 01:30:05,960
Speaker 1: He had years and years and years to change his mind,

1587
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:09,120
Speaker 1: and now he changes mind. Get out of here, grandmaster

1588
01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:12,160
Speaker 1: Or while is trying to get him sailed down, But

1589
01:30:12,240 --> 01:30:16,760
Speaker 1: Lyman continues the beginning now to wonder darkly if the

1590
01:30:16,840 --> 01:30:17,759
Speaker 1: king was murdered.

1591
01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:20,120
Speaker 5: Honestly, it's very honestly fair.

1592
01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:23,280
Speaker 1: And it's clear, I think to the Greens now that

1593
01:30:23,320 --> 01:30:26,000
Speaker 1: Beesberry's gonna be a problem. So Kristen Cole murders, smashes

1594
01:30:26,040 --> 01:30:29,320
Speaker 1: his head into the table, into his little marker ball,

1595
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:37,960
Speaker 1: and rip Liman Beesberry. It was wonderful to see this.

1596
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:38,719
Speaker 2: This integrity. Too little, too late.

1597
01:30:38,800 --> 01:30:43,679
Speaker 1: But Beesberry throughout the season has been like asleep at meetings,

1598
01:30:43,880 --> 01:30:47,120
Speaker 1: not really understanding what's going on behind, like talking about

1599
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:49,679
Speaker 1: a topic that they moved on from ten minutes ago.

1600
01:30:50,040 --> 01:30:53,040
Speaker 2: And it's fucking great to.

1601
01:30:53,080 --> 01:30:57,760
Speaker 1: See him in his final moments standing toe to toe

1602
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:00,679
Speaker 1: with all these very powerful people and speaking test of power.

1603
01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:03,360
Speaker 1: It got him killed, but fucking rip to Lyman. Beeesbury

1604
01:31:03,439 --> 01:31:04,040
Speaker 1: a real one.

1605
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:06,719
Speaker 5: He was a real poll one out for Liman. And also,

1606
01:31:07,200 --> 01:31:09,200
Speaker 5: we will say again I've been saying it, I am

1607
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:13,120
Speaker 5: the not If if there's a million Kristin cole hey

1608
01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:15,439
Speaker 5: is on this earth, i am one of them. If

1609
01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:18,120
Speaker 5: there is only one Kristen co Heter on this earth,

1610
01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:21,679
Speaker 5: it is me. And if there's no Kristin it's because

1611
01:31:21,680 --> 01:31:22,320
Speaker 5: I'm dead.

1612
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:25,280
Speaker 1: Like the only thing I want, guy, the only thing

1613
01:31:25,320 --> 01:31:28,320
Speaker 1: I want from Kristen Cole is his skincare routine.

1614
01:31:27,960 --> 01:31:33,080
Speaker 3: Because everybody's everybody in kigs Land his agent, but him

1615
01:31:33,160 --> 01:31:34,760
Speaker 3: hatred has like.

1616
01:31:36,200 --> 01:31:38,439
Speaker 2: You, has kept him young.

1617
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:44,360
Speaker 1: Command Or Westerling draws his sword on coal. Kristen draws

1618
01:31:44,400 --> 01:31:47,040
Speaker 1: his sword on Commander Westling and says, I'm not gonna

1619
01:31:47,040 --> 01:31:49,240
Speaker 1: allow vile Slanders against the Queen.

1620
01:31:49,400 --> 01:31:50,599
Speaker 2: Nobody mentioned the queen.

1621
01:31:51,640 --> 01:31:55,120
Speaker 5: Sorry, he didn't say anything about me, Like, please shut

1622
01:31:55,240 --> 01:31:57,160
Speaker 5: up and just take your sword away.

1623
01:31:57,560 --> 01:32:00,360
Speaker 1: So Cold stands down, but you can see on Western's

1624
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:03,800
Speaker 1: face that he's like, oh shit, this is not going

1625
01:32:03,840 --> 01:32:09,400
Speaker 1: the way I thought. The debate continues. Now Allison, understanding

1626
01:32:09,439 --> 01:32:13,000
Speaker 1: what has been afoot, begins to make her presence felt.

1627
01:32:13,000 --> 01:32:14,519
Speaker 1: She's like, okay, what are we gonna do with niro?

1628
01:32:16,040 --> 01:32:17,719
Speaker 1: Od was like, oh, we got to take a prisoner,

1629
01:32:18,439 --> 01:32:20,599
Speaker 1: and you know, we'll give them the opportunity to bend the knee.

1630
01:32:20,600 --> 01:32:24,000
Speaker 1: Alison is like, you know, she's never gonna bend the knee.

1631
01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:27,639
Speaker 1: So what happens then? And it's now that she realizes, oh,

1632
01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:30,320
Speaker 1: my father is plotting to have Raniera, Damon and all

1633
01:32:30,439 --> 01:32:31,839
Speaker 1: their children murdered.

1634
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:37,879
Speaker 5: The thing that he very heavily manipulated poor old Allison

1635
01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:40,800
Speaker 5: into believing what happened to her it was just never

1636
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:43,960
Speaker 5: his own behavior, It was just him. She never he

1637
01:32:44,080 --> 01:32:44,639
Speaker 5: wanted to do.

1638
01:32:45,479 --> 01:32:51,360
Speaker 1: She never thought about the flip side that if we

1639
01:32:51,640 --> 01:32:55,519
Speaker 1: must seize power so that Raniera and her children won't

1640
01:32:55,600 --> 01:32:59,840
Speaker 1: kill me and my children, she didn't understand that conversely,

1641
01:32:59,840 --> 01:33:02,720
Speaker 1: that means when we sees power, he has to kill

1642
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:06,040
Speaker 1: Raniera and her children. But of course Allison doesn't know

1643
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:08,120
Speaker 1: what to do next. Thailand is like, okay, so what

1644
01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:11,760
Speaker 1: do you want to do, Queen, And Allison doesn't really know.

1645
01:33:12,160 --> 01:33:16,479
Speaker 1: Otto definitely knows, and he says, and it's a chilling moment.

1646
01:33:16,600 --> 01:33:19,200
Speaker 1: He says, Okay, Sir Harold, I want you to go

1647
01:33:19,240 --> 01:33:21,439
Speaker 1: to Dragonstone at once with your best guys, and I

1648
01:33:21,479 --> 01:33:25,519
Speaker 1: want you to kill Raniera, Damon and everybody there very quietly,

1649
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:29,360
Speaker 1: as quietly as you can, and then it'll be mission accomplished.

1650
01:33:30,160 --> 01:33:32,320
Speaker 1: Westerling thinks about this for like a half a second,

1651
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:35,080
Speaker 1: and he's like, nope, I'm there's no king. I'm the

1652
01:33:35,080 --> 01:33:38,160
Speaker 1: commander of the King's guard. There's no so until such

1653
01:33:38,200 --> 01:33:40,800
Speaker 1: time as there is a king, I don't have a job.

1654
01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:43,200
Speaker 1: So I'll see you later. And he leaves again. Shouts

1655
01:33:43,200 --> 01:33:46,560
Speaker 1: to Commander Westerling for showing some integrity.

1656
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:49,400
Speaker 5: I was gonna say, in my opinion, took him too long,

1657
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:52,320
Speaker 5: But you know what, Yes, I am excited to see

1658
01:33:52,320 --> 01:33:54,360
Speaker 5: this happen. I am excited to see where we may

1659
01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:56,559
Speaker 5: see him pop up. I have fond memories of the

1660
01:33:56,720 --> 01:33:59,160
Speaker 5: small moments he spent with Raniera before. I hope that

1661
01:33:59,240 --> 01:34:02,640
Speaker 5: he may see fit to fix his ways and go

1662
01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:05,479
Speaker 5: and make the corrections to his behavior. But it's a

1663
01:34:05,479 --> 01:34:06,920
Speaker 5: great moment when he takes off his.

1664
01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:09,759
Speaker 1: Cloak, one of the few good moments for the King's

1665
01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:13,000
Speaker 1: Guard in this series and in the stories writ large.

1666
01:34:13,880 --> 01:34:17,559
Speaker 1: Alison Auto go to find egg On the apparently the

1667
01:34:17,600 --> 01:34:21,080
Speaker 1: new King. He's not in his room, Princess Helena doesn't

1668
01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:23,720
Speaker 1: know where he is. Alison has a private moment with

1669
01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:28,640
Speaker 1: his daughter, breaks the news, and then Helena says, there's

1670
01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:30,760
Speaker 1: as beneath the boards. But of course no one really

1671
01:34:30,880 --> 01:34:32,479
Speaker 1: understands the importance of.

1672
01:34:32,439 --> 01:34:35,559
Speaker 5: This, and Helena telling her like she is grabbing her

1673
01:34:35,640 --> 01:34:37,400
Speaker 5: up and saying like please.

1674
01:34:37,840 --> 01:34:44,080
Speaker 1: It's unclear to me that Helena truly understands what she's

1675
01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:49,000
Speaker 1: saying at any given time. That said, if she doesn't

1676
01:34:49,040 --> 01:34:54,280
Speaker 1: know herself, the meaning of what she is saying her

1677
01:34:54,400 --> 01:34:57,040
Speaker 1: a vision some of the yeah, you can tell in

1678
01:34:57,120 --> 01:34:59,880
Speaker 1: the desperate, desperate tone that she has, and we should

1679
01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:02,439
Speaker 1: abs her mother's hand that she knows that it's important.

1680
01:35:03,240 --> 01:35:07,360
Speaker 1: Otto approaches Sir Eric, the King's guard, who's been Eggon's

1681
01:35:07,360 --> 01:35:12,920
Speaker 1: sworn shield for some time now. He's like, where's the Prince?

1682
01:35:13,040 --> 01:35:15,040
Speaker 1: Eric doesn't know. He says, I want you and your

1683
01:35:15,080 --> 01:35:19,560
Speaker 1: brother to go in the city find Eggon. Don't tell anybody,

1684
01:35:19,680 --> 01:35:22,240
Speaker 1: especially the queen, what you're doing. You find the king,

1685
01:35:22,320 --> 01:35:25,680
Speaker 1: you bring him to me. Meanwhile, Princess Renie wakes up

1686
01:35:25,720 --> 01:35:27,640
Speaker 1: in her room and she finds that she's locked in.

1687
01:35:28,280 --> 01:35:31,040
Speaker 1: She looks out the window and sees the household staff

1688
01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:34,960
Speaker 1: being rounded up. You have to imagine at that point

1689
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:38,280
Speaker 1: the wheels must be turned. She must understand, like what

1690
01:35:38,479 --> 01:35:43,320
Speaker 1: has probably happened. Kristen Cole, Everybody's favorite, breaks the news

1691
01:35:43,360 --> 01:35:47,479
Speaker 1: of Egon's disappearance and of Sir Eric's mission to Allison

1692
01:35:47,600 --> 01:35:52,760
Speaker 1: and Amend. Allison then says, okay, Christen Cole, take you

1693
01:35:52,880 --> 01:35:56,200
Speaker 1: need to go find Eggon before Eric does. Take Aimened

1694
01:35:56,240 --> 01:35:58,320
Speaker 1: with you, because Aimend, of course, knows everything that his

1695
01:35:58,360 --> 01:35:59,120
Speaker 1: brother has been up to.

1696
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:00,720
Speaker 2: The throne room.

1697
01:36:01,120 --> 01:36:06,600
Speaker 1: Otto has what lords and and ladies are were apparently

1698
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:09,759
Speaker 1: in the in the red Keep at this time, gathers

1699
01:36:09,800 --> 01:36:14,800
Speaker 1: them together, uh and probably specifically the ones that that

1700
01:36:15,920 --> 01:36:18,960
Speaker 1: are there that pledge their fealty to Rneer in the

1701
01:36:19,000 --> 01:36:22,240
Speaker 1: password and at least known to be Black loyalists, and

1702
01:36:22,320 --> 01:36:27,160
Speaker 1: he says, okay, so we're crowning egg On today and

1703
01:36:27,560 --> 01:36:30,679
Speaker 1: everybody has to swear fielty to him and to renounce

1704
01:36:30,720 --> 01:36:32,120
Speaker 1: VERNIERO Who's who's gonna do it?

1705
01:36:32,479 --> 01:36:33,120
Speaker 2: Most do it?

1706
01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:37,000
Speaker 1: Which I get it. This is you know that you're

1707
01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:38,679
Speaker 1: going to be strung up in the courtyard if.

1708
01:36:38,600 --> 01:36:39,160
Speaker 2: You don't do it.

1709
01:36:39,200 --> 01:36:42,160
Speaker 1: But if you don't, house Fell remains on its feet.

1710
01:36:43,960 --> 01:36:47,040
Speaker 1: Lord Caswell eventually kneels, but then we see later that

1711
01:36:47,080 --> 01:36:50,160
Speaker 1: he'll try and escape and get word to Rnier. Meanwhile,

1712
01:36:52,040 --> 01:36:55,599
Speaker 1: we see an underground fight club where Eric and Eric

1713
01:36:56,120 --> 01:37:00,080
Speaker 1: uh know, are kind of like touring around. They know

1714
01:37:00,120 --> 01:37:02,160
Speaker 1: that Eggon likes to spend his time there. It's a

1715
01:37:02,200 --> 01:37:05,680
Speaker 1: horrific place where kids apparently fight to the death. And

1716
01:37:05,720 --> 01:37:10,480
Speaker 1: when a Massari's agents comes and says, you know, apparently

1717
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:14,639
Speaker 1: makes contact with them and tells them, hey, my boss

1718
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:16,240
Speaker 1: has some information to you for you.

1719
01:37:16,640 --> 01:37:18,720
Speaker 2: Also, we see that.

1720
01:37:20,680 --> 01:37:25,040
Speaker 1: There are Targarian bastards down there in the dungeon, one

1721
01:37:25,080 --> 01:37:28,719
Speaker 1: of them probably Eggon's, probably the one we saw, and Eric.

1722
01:37:28,520 --> 01:37:31,560
Speaker 5: Says there's probably a lot more of Eggon's bastards.

1723
01:37:31,800 --> 01:37:35,439
Speaker 1: Now keep that in mind, because as this war pops off,

1724
01:37:36,160 --> 01:37:39,599
Speaker 1: dragon riders are going to become necessary, and suddenly these

1725
01:37:40,720 --> 01:37:45,720
Speaker 1: orphans who have Targarian blood could become very valuable.

1726
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:49,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, and also they're gonna be if they survive these

1727
01:37:49,840 --> 01:37:53,400
Speaker 5: fighting pits, they're also going to be incredibly bow Hodden.

1728
01:37:53,600 --> 01:37:56,520
Speaker 5: They shop in these kids teeth, they shop in their fingernails.

1729
01:37:56,520 --> 01:37:59,759
Speaker 5: They have them just puring at each other. It's horrific

1730
01:38:00,120 --> 01:38:04,200
Speaker 5: off and we see Eggon's bostard, who we see presumably

1731
01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:08,240
Speaker 5: is about four years old. That's these these are like babies.

1732
01:38:08,720 --> 01:38:12,920
Speaker 5: It's really horrific stuff. And this is when Eric and

1733
01:38:13,080 --> 01:38:18,120
Speaker 5: Eric start having the really important conversation about Eggon not

1734
01:38:18,280 --> 01:38:20,920
Speaker 5: being the right person to be king.

1735
01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:26,920
Speaker 1: Here's something that I've found noteworthy. The closer you are

1736
01:38:26,960 --> 01:38:32,839
Speaker 1: to egg On right, obviously, like Eric as his sworn sword,

1737
01:38:32,920 --> 01:38:36,439
Speaker 1: has had a front row seat to Eggon's you know,

1738
01:38:36,600 --> 01:38:41,080
Speaker 1: various doings over the However, many years. The closer you

1739
01:38:41,160 --> 01:38:43,680
Speaker 1: are to him, the less likely you are to want

1740
01:38:43,720 --> 01:38:46,280
Speaker 1: to support the guy. I think that that is very, very,

1741
01:38:46,360 --> 01:38:50,280
Speaker 1: very incredibly telling. Listen, I've I've been up close and

1742
01:38:50,320 --> 01:38:53,040
Speaker 1: personal with this guy and it can't be him. And

1743
01:38:53,120 --> 01:39:00,800
Speaker 1: that is a really really interesting conversation. Later, Alison goes

1744
01:39:00,840 --> 01:39:03,839
Speaker 1: to see Renie. This is after watching the Silent Sisters

1745
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:04,960
Speaker 1: prepare the King's.

1746
01:39:04,720 --> 01:39:06,080
Speaker 2: Body, and.

1747
01:39:07,760 --> 01:39:10,320
Speaker 1: She asks for Renice's support. She makes a really good pitch.

1748
01:39:10,320 --> 01:39:15,439
Speaker 1: He says, like, listen, you can have a drift Mark.

1749
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:18,160
Speaker 1: Drift Mark will go to your daughters, like everything will

1750
01:39:18,160 --> 01:39:20,679
Speaker 1: be fine. Just support us, like that's what we need.

1751
01:39:21,080 --> 01:39:25,880
Speaker 1: And Renie, it's unclear what side Renie really is going

1752
01:39:25,960 --> 01:39:28,400
Speaker 1: to come down on, but she says, at this time, listen,

1753
01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:31,960
Speaker 1: the word of my house is not fickle. And also

1754
01:39:32,600 --> 01:39:35,759
Speaker 1: left unspoken here is the fact that like though Renie

1755
01:39:35,880 --> 01:39:38,400
Speaker 1: and Corlis have had their disagreements, they've been a very

1756
01:39:38,400 --> 01:39:41,200
Speaker 1: strong partnership in terms of decision making for these years.

1757
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:45,120
Speaker 1: And Corlis is alive. He's not dead, so the time

1758
01:39:45,160 --> 01:39:48,120
Speaker 1: has not come for her to take that position and

1759
01:39:48,160 --> 01:39:54,920
Speaker 1: make these decisions in his absence. Alison then makes a

1760
01:39:54,960 --> 01:39:57,120
Speaker 1: pitch to the heart She's like, listen, you should have

1761
01:39:57,160 --> 01:40:01,880
Speaker 1: been queen, and in a different world, maybe, you know,

1762
01:40:02,320 --> 01:40:04,960
Speaker 1: maybe the realm would accept a woman as a ruler.

1763
01:40:05,000 --> 01:40:07,680
Speaker 1: But she says, we do not rule, but we may

1764
01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:10,640
Speaker 1: guide the men that do gently away from violence and

1765
01:40:10,720 --> 01:40:15,479
Speaker 1: sure destruction and instead toward peace. And then Renie says

1766
01:40:15,840 --> 01:40:20,519
Speaker 1: something that is stuck with me, which is, you don't

1767
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:24,000
Speaker 1: you're in a prison and you don't see it. You know,

1768
01:40:24,040 --> 01:40:26,400
Speaker 1: you're doing everything to serve all these men, your son,

1769
01:40:26,560 --> 01:40:30,639
Speaker 1: your father, your husband, and you don't want to escape

1770
01:40:30,640 --> 01:40:32,720
Speaker 1: from your prison. You just want to build a window.

1771
01:40:33,240 --> 01:40:34,720
Speaker 1: You just want to put a window in it.

1772
01:40:34,760 --> 01:40:38,000
Speaker 5: And I was like, so damn good. And Renee just

1773
01:40:38,160 --> 01:40:41,640
Speaker 5: sells it because I know that she does believe that

1774
01:40:41,760 --> 01:40:44,720
Speaker 5: Allison means that she thinks she could be queen. Like

1775
01:40:44,800 --> 01:40:47,920
Speaker 5: there's there's a moment of connection there where there's this understanding.

1776
01:40:48,280 --> 01:40:52,040
Speaker 5: And then after Renie says that brilliant truth, which I

1777
01:40:52,080 --> 01:40:53,800
Speaker 5: think is the scale.

1778
01:40:53,720 --> 01:40:55,599
Speaker 2: Very very true, very very apt.

1779
01:40:55,479 --> 01:40:58,080
Speaker 5: And we learn it even more so that it's not

1780
01:40:58,240 --> 01:41:03,000
Speaker 5: just her family that has been in exploiting Alison, and

1781
01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:05,160
Speaker 5: you know that she's kind of shaping the world for

1782
01:41:05,200 --> 01:41:08,800
Speaker 5: these different men, it's also other grotesque men as well.

1783
01:41:09,240 --> 01:41:14,160
Speaker 5: But what I love is Renice leans in to her

1784
01:41:15,360 --> 01:41:19,160
Speaker 5: and says, have you never pictured yourself on the iron throne?

1785
01:41:19,439 --> 01:41:22,000
Speaker 5: And Olivia does such a great job in that moment

1786
01:41:22,080 --> 01:41:26,000
Speaker 5: that you honestly like don't actually know, like is Alison

1787
01:41:26,120 --> 01:41:30,840
Speaker 5: actually that naive that she has never done it? Or

1788
01:41:31,680 --> 01:41:35,680
Speaker 5: does she? And they do such a great job just

1789
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:42,280
Speaker 5: sticking on Olivia's face as she thinks about, oh, you know,

1790
01:41:42,360 --> 01:41:44,960
Speaker 5: and oh, that is just such a good scene.

1791
01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:49,040
Speaker 1: I have to say that scene really made me appreciate

1792
01:41:49,280 --> 01:41:56,839
Speaker 1: Circe Lanister. Now, Circe is a terrible person, awful, brutal, ruthless, murderer, torture, terrible,

1793
01:41:57,040 --> 01:42:02,960
Speaker 1: evil person, but she was very clear eyed about the

1794
01:42:03,000 --> 01:42:07,639
Speaker 1: way this world worked, and she didn't pussy foot around

1795
01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:13,160
Speaker 1: with appearances and how people might feel and wondering oh

1796
01:42:13,720 --> 01:42:17,800
Speaker 1: will the realm accept this? That was what people expected

1797
01:42:17,800 --> 01:42:20,680
Speaker 1: of women. She knew, and so when she went to

1798
01:42:20,880 --> 01:42:24,679
Speaker 1: seize power, she just did it. She when she had power,

1799
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:28,000
Speaker 1: Unlike Alison, who has power but is trying to like

1800
01:42:28,400 --> 01:42:32,280
Speaker 1: wield it softly through other men, through through the men

1801
01:42:32,320 --> 01:42:35,720
Speaker 1: in her life, through other people. Circe just said, I'm

1802
01:42:35,720 --> 01:42:37,960
Speaker 1: wielding power I'm gonna wield power in my own hands.

1803
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:38,600
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do it.

1804
01:42:38,640 --> 01:42:40,759
Speaker 1: I'm going to tear up this order that ned Stark

1805
01:42:40,840 --> 01:42:43,720
Speaker 1: is trying to give me. I'm gonna I'm gonna just

1806
01:42:43,840 --> 01:42:48,479
Speaker 1: do the things that people don't expect women to do.

1807
01:42:48,520 --> 01:42:50,800
Speaker 1: They don't expect them to act this directly.

1808
01:42:50,960 --> 01:42:54,000
Speaker 2: And if Alison had that.

1809
01:42:54,160 --> 01:42:57,320
Speaker 1: With her current moral compass, I know it would probably

1810
01:42:57,360 --> 01:42:57,920
Speaker 1: be a better world.

1811
01:42:58,120 --> 01:42:59,200
Speaker 2: Honestly, I wonder.

1812
01:42:59,760 --> 01:43:01,880
Speaker 5: I've I've been thinking a lot about the choices they

1813
01:43:01,960 --> 01:43:04,680
Speaker 5: made to build out Allison, which I do love. I

1814
01:43:04,720 --> 01:43:07,559
Speaker 5: do wonder if they were worried that it would be

1815
01:43:07,600 --> 01:43:09,840
Speaker 5: hard to not just make her a Circe light, if

1816
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:13,120
Speaker 5: she was like a real conniving, power hungry person. But

1817
01:43:13,200 --> 01:43:16,439
Speaker 5: I would love to see a little bit more of that,

1818
01:43:16,439 --> 01:43:20,920
Speaker 5: that self determination and violence that needs because you know

1819
01:43:21,000 --> 01:43:22,800
Speaker 5: that you can rule better than everyone else, and we

1820
01:43:22,840 --> 01:43:25,759
Speaker 5: always know that ends badly. But you know what, sometimes

1821
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:27,120
Speaker 5: in Game of fir as well, you need it. And

1822
01:43:27,120 --> 01:43:29,519
Speaker 5: it's funny you should bring up Circe because there is

1823
01:43:29,560 --> 01:43:31,200
Speaker 5: a moment at the end of this episode that I

1824
01:43:31,280 --> 01:43:33,680
Speaker 5: do understand that we are going to talk about. But

1825
01:43:33,840 --> 01:43:36,639
Speaker 5: like in that moment, I was just thinking like Circe

1826
01:43:36,760 --> 01:43:38,160
Speaker 5: would never Circe.

1827
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:40,320
Speaker 2: We will talk about it. We will talk about that.

1828
01:43:40,520 --> 01:43:43,800
Speaker 1: Let me just say, as a quicker side to quickly

1829
01:43:43,840 --> 01:43:48,360
Speaker 1: talk about Circe. Having spent so much time thinking about

1830
01:43:48,400 --> 01:43:52,160
Speaker 1: these characters, it makes sense that Circe would have this

1831
01:43:52,400 --> 01:43:55,840
Speaker 1: very jaundiced but also clear eyed understanding of the way

1832
01:43:55,840 --> 01:43:58,439
Speaker 1: the world works, because she is, since she was a child,

1833
01:43:59,160 --> 01:44:03,000
Speaker 1: had a secret that if it was discovered, could lead

1834
01:44:03,240 --> 01:44:08,840
Speaker 1: to the most diarist of consequences. And so she is

1835
01:44:09,000 --> 01:44:12,240
Speaker 1: just a very very keen and clear eyed observer of

1836
01:44:12,439 --> 01:44:15,040
Speaker 1: human nature of the way things work, because she is

1837
01:44:15,120 --> 01:44:20,439
Speaker 1: always thought and had that radar up for any hint

1838
01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:23,960
Speaker 1: that she might be discovered. So that's how I always

1839
01:44:24,000 --> 01:44:24,679
Speaker 1: thought about Cerce.

1840
01:44:24,800 --> 01:44:25,120
Speaker 2: Anyway.

1841
01:44:25,520 --> 01:44:29,360
Speaker 1: Otto now goes to meet with Massaria after Eric and

1842
01:44:29,560 --> 01:44:35,759
Speaker 1: Eric bring the hands the message. Massaria is still French.

1843
01:44:36,080 --> 01:44:38,360
Speaker 1: She says she has egg On hidden somewhere in Flea

1844
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:43,320
Speaker 1: Bottom and for his return, she asks for an end

1845
01:44:43,320 --> 01:44:45,760
Speaker 1: to the systematic abuse of children in Flea Bottom. The

1846
01:44:45,800 --> 01:44:49,680
Speaker 1: fight clubs that the gold Cloaks ignore, that they are

1847
01:44:49,800 --> 01:44:53,800
Speaker 1: bribed to ignore. Otto gives his word that he looks

1848
01:44:53,800 --> 01:44:56,559
Speaker 1: into it, and I just want to say that on

1849
01:44:56,600 --> 01:44:59,640
Speaker 1: the one hand, this is so frustrating for Messaria, but

1850
01:44:59,680 --> 01:45:02,800
Speaker 1: it's all also feels very true to a kind of

1851
01:45:03,439 --> 01:45:08,479
Speaker 1: to a kind of character that that I have known

1852
01:45:08,760 --> 01:45:12,160
Speaker 1: and interacted with, a kind of person who hates quote

1853
01:45:12,200 --> 01:45:18,679
Speaker 1: unquote the system. Missaria is a true revolutionary, like kind

1854
01:45:18,720 --> 01:45:23,320
Speaker 1: of like Renee in that sense. She's not saying like, oh,

1855
01:45:23,360 --> 01:45:27,479
Speaker 1: we're going to reform this, you know, this feudal system

1856
01:45:27,520 --> 01:45:30,040
Speaker 1: that we live by, Like around the margin, she's saying, no,

1857
01:45:30,680 --> 01:45:35,240
Speaker 1: I want everything overturned. I want freedom and peace for

1858
01:45:35,400 --> 01:45:40,080
Speaker 1: the children of Flea Bottom, things that absolutely no one

1859
01:45:40,160 --> 01:45:43,880
Speaker 1: is ever going to give to her. And she mistakes

1860
01:45:43,920 --> 01:45:46,799
Speaker 1: the fact that the system is broken and her hatred

1861
01:45:46,840 --> 01:45:51,680
Speaker 1: for the system. She is unfortunately conflated her hatred of

1862
01:45:51,720 --> 01:45:56,080
Speaker 1: the system with miss with underestimating, yes, the way this

1863
01:45:56,160 --> 01:46:01,000
Speaker 1: world works, Because had she really understood what she had

1864
01:46:01,640 --> 01:46:04,240
Speaker 1: and how this world works, she would never have just

1865
01:46:04,400 --> 01:46:07,479
Speaker 1: given egg On up for a promise that they would

1866
01:46:07,560 --> 01:46:09,800
Speaker 1: fix the fighting for the kids.

1867
01:46:09,920 --> 01:46:14,000
Speaker 5: She went to the wrong person. It's ironic. Alison is

1868
01:46:14,080 --> 01:46:17,800
Speaker 5: ironically the person who probably could have been emotionally exactly

1869
01:46:18,920 --> 01:46:21,880
Speaker 5: charged into making this decision, one because it's her son,

1870
01:46:21,960 --> 01:46:24,120
Speaker 5: and two because she probably would think the Flea Bottom

1871
01:46:24,120 --> 01:46:28,760
Speaker 5: abuses are horrific, but also like, Babe, if egg On

1872
01:46:28,920 --> 01:46:31,760
Speaker 5: is king, they ain't never happening. This is the guy

1873
01:46:31,760 --> 01:46:34,679
Speaker 5: who goes there, He goes, he's the number one fan.

1874
01:46:34,840 --> 01:46:37,080
Speaker 5: You should have just killed him. He's literally.

1875
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:41,040
Speaker 2: His favorite club. He's not going to do that.

1876
01:46:42,520 --> 01:46:46,160
Speaker 1: And to give and to give him over without any

1877
01:46:46,240 --> 01:46:48,800
Speaker 1: kind of collateral at all.

1878
01:46:48,960 --> 01:46:50,479
Speaker 5: I mean, you could have just asked for some gold

1879
01:46:50,520 --> 01:46:52,080
Speaker 5: at least, and you could have got those kids.

1880
01:46:52,439 --> 01:46:59,280
Speaker 1: So unfortunately naive not to mention the way that when

1881
01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:02,120
Speaker 1: she says, there's no power, but what people allow you

1882
01:47:02,160 --> 01:47:06,240
Speaker 1: to take? This again, very revolutionary statement of people power

1883
01:47:06,280 --> 01:47:08,759
Speaker 1: in a world in which the small folk, the people,

1884
01:47:08,800 --> 01:47:12,240
Speaker 1: the common people don't mean anything to the people who

1885
01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:16,679
Speaker 1: rule right there other than as an engine for their

1886
01:47:16,720 --> 01:47:19,639
Speaker 1: economies to till the fields and fricking make the food

1887
01:47:19,680 --> 01:47:24,639
Speaker 1: and et cetera. When she says that to Otto and

1888
01:47:24,800 --> 01:47:28,120
Speaker 1: makes him promise to like look into the to the

1889
01:47:28,160 --> 01:47:31,280
Speaker 1: abuse of children in Flee Bottom, and he says, he

1890
01:47:31,360 --> 01:47:34,960
Speaker 1: says that and to remember that, like, there's no power,

1891
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:37,000
Speaker 1: but what the people allow you to take? He says, yeah,

1892
01:47:37,040 --> 01:47:39,720
Speaker 1: I don't worry, I'll remember. And he says it in

1893
01:47:39,760 --> 01:47:43,479
Speaker 1: that ominous way that you understand. He means, I will

1894
01:47:43,520 --> 01:47:46,720
Speaker 1: remember you, and once I have the king back, I'm

1895
01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:47,559
Speaker 1: going to take revenge.

1896
01:47:47,640 --> 01:47:50,479
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. It's like, I can't have somebody who thinks,

1897
01:47:50,680 --> 01:47:53,439
Speaker 5: who even thinks that they have control over the people, because,

1898
01:47:53,479 --> 01:47:56,200
Speaker 5: as we all know, this is the nature of revolution.

1899
01:47:56,560 --> 01:47:59,879
Speaker 5: There are always far more people than that are rulers.

1900
01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:02,479
Speaker 5: There's a reason that nowadays we call it the one percent.

1901
01:48:02,560 --> 01:48:05,559
Speaker 5: If everybody worked together and wanted to change things, they could.

1902
01:48:05,760 --> 01:48:08,679
Speaker 5: So you can't have Alida. He's telling you, I'll remember

1903
01:48:08,800 --> 01:48:10,720
Speaker 5: because I'm going to kill you. But guess what, it

1904
01:48:10,760 --> 01:48:13,479
Speaker 5: doesn't even have to do. That doesn't even have to

1905
01:48:13,520 --> 01:48:14,560
Speaker 5: make the effort.

1906
01:48:15,240 --> 01:48:19,439
Speaker 1: So they find the prince in the Great sept. He's

1907
01:48:19,479 --> 01:48:24,439
Speaker 1: delivered after a fight outside the sept, He's delivered to

1908
01:48:24,520 --> 01:48:28,920
Speaker 1: the Queen. Sorry, I'll to sorry Otto. Allison then goes

1909
01:48:28,960 --> 01:48:33,320
Speaker 1: to see Otto. She finds him sending letters. He understands

1910
01:48:33,360 --> 01:48:36,600
Speaker 1: that she has the prince. He pitches family unity and

1911
01:48:36,640 --> 01:48:40,720
Speaker 1: the transition to come. Alison is like, no, reluctance to

1912
01:48:40,800 --> 01:48:41,879
Speaker 1: murder is not a weakness.

1913
01:48:41,960 --> 01:48:42,600
Speaker 2: I have egg on.

1914
01:48:42,720 --> 01:48:45,519
Speaker 1: We will now proceed as icy fit, and that means

1915
01:48:45,760 --> 01:48:48,720
Speaker 1: offering terms to Rania that she will actually accept so

1916
01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:52,240
Speaker 1: we can avoid war. And that's what Viceras would have wanted,

1917
01:48:52,280 --> 01:48:55,280
Speaker 1: and you know, that's what Visas would have wanted. Otto

1918
01:48:55,400 --> 01:48:58,679
Speaker 1: is like, this is your letting your friendship with Rania

1919
01:48:58,800 --> 01:49:01,479
Speaker 1: cloud your judgment and al And just runs over this.

1920
01:49:01,600 --> 01:49:04,760
Speaker 1: She's like, I'm putting my people into it. Kristen Cole

1921
01:49:04,840 --> 01:49:07,160
Speaker 1: is the new Lord Commander of the King's Guard. Egg

1922
01:49:07,200 --> 01:49:09,000
Speaker 1: On is going to be anointed tomorrow. I've set it

1923
01:49:09,040 --> 01:49:10,439
Speaker 1: all up. We're going to do it in the dragon

1924
01:49:10,479 --> 01:49:12,519
Speaker 1: pit because we want everybody to see it. He's gonna

1925
01:49:12,520 --> 01:49:15,000
Speaker 1: wear egg On the Conqueror's crown, He's gonna have the sword,

1926
01:49:15,000 --> 01:49:16,600
Speaker 1: He's gonna have the whole thing. Now, this is a

1927
01:49:16,680 --> 01:49:19,599
Speaker 1: very telling moment, and I think one that is subtle,

1928
01:49:19,640 --> 01:49:23,360
Speaker 1: but just Hammer's Home has been one of the central

1929
01:49:23,400 --> 01:49:28,639
Speaker 1: themes of this season, which is this patriarchy, both obvious

1930
01:49:29,200 --> 01:49:34,920
Speaker 1: and subtle, like ingrained and kind of the way it

1931
01:49:35,000 --> 01:49:40,400
Speaker 1: surrounds everybody. She's giving these orders like a queen, like

1932
01:49:40,479 --> 01:49:45,559
Speaker 1: a ruler, like someone in charge. And when that happens

1933
01:49:45,560 --> 01:49:49,640
Speaker 1: in this episode, when a woman is giving orders, specifically

1934
01:49:49,640 --> 01:49:53,599
Speaker 1: Otto in this case reacting to it. They don't react

1935
01:49:54,720 --> 01:49:58,080
Speaker 1: as if a ruler has given them orders. What he

1936
01:49:58,240 --> 01:50:01,719
Speaker 1: does is he deflects, immediately moves the conversation to something

1937
01:50:01,720 --> 01:50:04,479
Speaker 1: he's more comfortable with. He says, you look so much

1938
01:50:04,560 --> 01:50:07,439
Speaker 1: like your mother in certain lights instead.

1939
01:50:06,920 --> 01:50:09,680
Speaker 2: Of yes, your grace, I heard you, I followed you.

1940
01:50:10,000 --> 01:50:13,479
Speaker 1: And it's felt like such a real and relatable moment

1941
01:50:13,680 --> 01:50:20,320
Speaker 1: because he's not able to be comfortable with the idea

1942
01:50:20,600 --> 01:50:22,960
Speaker 1: of a woman ruling. We've seen it and everything.

1943
01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:25,160
Speaker 3: He's done up to this point, and that includes his

1944
01:50:25,200 --> 01:50:26,200
Speaker 3: own fucking daughter.

1945
01:50:26,400 --> 01:50:27,000
Speaker 2: He can't.

1946
01:50:27,439 --> 01:50:31,080
Speaker 3: He can't be subservient in this moment, even though that's

1947
01:50:31,080 --> 01:50:32,720
Speaker 3: the fucking queen tech and.

1948
01:50:33,520 --> 01:50:36,200
Speaker 5: It's so well delivered. Reese fans is so good. We

1949
01:50:36,240 --> 01:50:37,920
Speaker 5: all knew we wanted him to come back. It was

1950
01:50:37,920 --> 01:50:40,720
Speaker 5: so great to see him come back. It's really creepy too,

1951
01:50:41,360 --> 01:50:44,800
Speaker 5: because now she's old and his and the mother was

1952
01:50:44,840 --> 01:50:48,520
Speaker 5: like his lover. There's so much to be fantazingtizing.

1953
01:50:48,680 --> 01:50:49,240
Speaker 2: It's creepy.

1954
01:50:49,400 --> 01:50:51,760
Speaker 5: Not only that, I think the saddest thing about this

1955
01:50:52,400 --> 01:50:55,360
Speaker 5: is that Allison is giving all these orders and telling

1956
01:50:55,560 --> 01:50:58,000
Speaker 5: how it's going to go. But the saddest thing is

1957
01:50:58,479 --> 01:51:03,040
Speaker 5: she is just enacting the plan that Otto wanted, Like, yeah, sure,

1958
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:06,240
Speaker 5: maybe she's gonna say, don't kill Raniera. B oh doesn't care.

1959
01:51:06,360 --> 01:51:08,800
Speaker 5: Like she is putting egg On on the crown. She

1960
01:51:08,960 --> 01:51:11,600
Speaker 5: is usurping the throne. It's really sad because even in

1961
01:51:11,640 --> 01:51:14,880
Speaker 5: this moment of power, she is actually still just being

1962
01:51:14,880 --> 01:51:16,160
Speaker 5: manipulated by him.

1963
01:51:16,760 --> 01:51:19,800
Speaker 1: It's so it's so internalized the way this system works.

1964
01:51:19,840 --> 01:51:22,920
Speaker 1: I mean, Renie was exactly right. You're not trying to

1965
01:51:23,000 --> 01:51:25,559
Speaker 1: destroy the prison. You want to live in the cell

1966
01:51:25,640 --> 01:51:26,759
Speaker 1: but have more views.

1967
01:51:26,880 --> 01:51:27,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, like that's it.

1968
01:51:29,040 --> 01:51:32,479
Speaker 1: Laris comes to see how he's boom, and he's very

1969
01:51:32,520 --> 01:51:35,559
Speaker 1: excited because he has some intel and he knows that, uh,

1970
01:51:35,800 --> 01:51:38,240
Speaker 1: it's something that Alison's gonna want here, and we now

1971
01:51:38,280 --> 01:51:42,320
Speaker 1: discover the price tag of such information. It is Allison

1972
01:51:42,880 --> 01:51:46,640
Speaker 1: has to degrade herself, has to show her feet to

1973
01:51:46,800 --> 01:51:52,799
Speaker 1: this man. H Crenton tasers himself. Yes, and Laris tells Alison,

1974
01:51:52,920 --> 01:51:57,480
Speaker 1: okay that Otto found egg On first because of Massari's

1975
01:51:57,479 --> 01:52:00,080
Speaker 1: web of spies. Allison's lady in waiting is one of

1976
01:52:00,080 --> 01:52:04,720
Speaker 1: her agents, and Lara suggests assassining me. Sorry, now let

1977
01:52:04,720 --> 01:52:08,240
Speaker 1: me see your feet. Now, this again is on the

1978
01:52:08,280 --> 01:52:12,280
Speaker 1: one hand, on surface level, right, This is shocking. It

1979
01:52:12,479 --> 01:52:17,160
Speaker 1: is surprising, you know, considering in the books, the historians,

1980
01:52:17,200 --> 01:52:20,920
Speaker 1: the fictional historians, are always wondering, Oh, what made the

1981
01:52:21,120 --> 01:52:24,000
Speaker 1: enigmatic Lara's strong tick? What was it that motivated him?

1982
01:52:24,000 --> 01:52:24,400
Speaker 2: Now we know.

1983
01:52:24,560 --> 01:52:28,799
Speaker 1: Right On the other hand, on a deeper, like really

1984
01:52:28,880 --> 01:52:36,439
Speaker 1: more substantial and real level, the fact that he feels

1985
01:52:36,520 --> 01:52:40,440
Speaker 1: comfortable doing this is another expression of how deeply misogynistic

1986
01:52:40,680 --> 01:52:44,639
Speaker 1: and patriarchal this society is. Because even though he has

1987
01:52:44,920 --> 01:52:48,400
Speaker 1: much less power in real terms than her, he could

1988
01:52:48,520 --> 01:52:52,320
Speaker 1: order she could order his tongue out, his head cut off,

1989
01:52:52,400 --> 01:52:56,439
Speaker 1: every tortured to death, his fucking house destroyed, like she

1990
01:52:56,520 --> 01:53:01,639
Speaker 1: could order it all. But he understands that in this world,

1991
01:53:03,520 --> 01:53:05,800
Speaker 1: men have the men have the power. And this is

1992
01:53:05,880 --> 01:53:09,040
Speaker 1: how this is the relationship we have. No matter how

1993
01:53:09,120 --> 01:53:13,240
Speaker 1: powerful you are, I can still get you to do

1994
01:53:13,280 --> 01:53:15,479
Speaker 1: this thing that I want in it.

1995
01:53:15,520 --> 01:53:20,160
Speaker 5: And that's really the fetish, honestly.

1996
01:53:18,040 --> 01:53:22,760
Speaker 2: Is the power. It's the power it all ties in.

1997
01:53:22,840 --> 01:53:27,519
Speaker 5: This is such an interesting episode for Alison because it

1998
01:53:27,720 --> 01:53:31,120
Speaker 5: shows that the way that Otto treated her and sold

1999
01:53:31,160 --> 01:53:35,840
Speaker 5: her and used her essentially just established every relationship she

2000
01:53:35,880 --> 01:53:39,360
Speaker 5: would ever have with men, whether it was personal or business.

2001
01:53:40,080 --> 01:53:43,519
Speaker 5: She almost doesn't seem to realize that she could just

2002
01:53:43,760 --> 01:53:44,639
Speaker 5: kill Laris.

2003
01:53:45,000 --> 01:53:46,200
Speaker 2: She could literally kill him.

2004
01:53:46,240 --> 01:53:48,639
Speaker 5: He could tell her the information and she could kill him.

2005
01:53:48,880 --> 01:53:50,559
Speaker 5: How long has this been going on for? Is this

2006
01:53:50,640 --> 01:53:52,639
Speaker 5: what she was doing when she went there for the dinner?

2007
01:53:52,760 --> 01:53:55,439
Speaker 5: Is this something he did later because he'd killed those

2008
01:53:55,439 --> 01:53:57,840
Speaker 5: people and he said it was in her name. Also,

2009
01:53:58,360 --> 01:54:00,800
Speaker 5: you know, we get a couple of moments this episode

2010
01:54:02,040 --> 01:54:06,080
Speaker 5: that seemed to confirm or at least imply that Kristin

2011
01:54:06,120 --> 01:54:09,000
Speaker 5: and Allison have been having a sexual relationship, or at

2012
01:54:09,120 --> 01:54:12,320
Speaker 5: least in some kind of romantic relationship. You know, she says,

2013
01:54:12,360 --> 01:54:14,880
Speaker 5: for all the love you have to me as your queen,

2014
01:54:14,960 --> 01:54:16,960
Speaker 5: and she's like right up close in his face when

2015
01:54:16,960 --> 01:54:19,040
Speaker 5: she sends him to go and get egg on. So,

2016
01:54:19,120 --> 01:54:22,320
Speaker 5: first of all, boo to Kristin, because you're a hypocrite

2017
01:54:22,880 --> 01:54:24,960
Speaker 5: while I was sleeping with Rania, like chill out.

2018
01:54:25,360 --> 01:54:26,080
Speaker 2: I hate that guy.

2019
01:54:26,400 --> 01:54:32,440
Speaker 5: But also like another situation where she's essentially been manipulated.

2020
01:54:33,000 --> 01:54:36,400
Speaker 5: She gave Kristin his She let him keep his honor

2021
01:54:36,680 --> 01:54:41,360
Speaker 5: while dishonoring him. By apparently being in this relationship, she's

2022
01:54:41,440 --> 01:54:44,520
Speaker 5: now giving him more power all these things when he

2023
01:54:44,560 --> 01:54:47,400
Speaker 5: hasn't he has not been a loyal or good person.

2024
01:54:47,520 --> 01:54:51,160
Speaker 5: You know he did. He murdered Lyman Beesbury just in

2025
01:54:51,240 --> 01:54:54,400
Speaker 5: the council chambers. He's a wild card. But men have

2026
01:54:54,480 --> 01:54:57,360
Speaker 5: the power. She she thinks she is using him as

2027
01:54:57,360 --> 01:55:00,320
Speaker 5: a tool, when really she is once again being you used,

2028
01:55:00,360 --> 01:55:03,280
Speaker 5: and it is just well, it's heartbreaking stuff, man, and

2029
01:55:03,320 --> 01:55:06,600
Speaker 5: Olivia just makes the character. It's so much more complex

2030
01:55:06,680 --> 01:55:09,800
Speaker 5: than a victim. It's more just like a a really

2031
01:55:09,840 --> 01:55:13,360
Speaker 5: interesting expression of like internalized misogyny and the way it

2032
01:55:13,480 --> 01:55:13,960
Speaker 5: kind of.

2033
01:55:15,240 --> 01:55:16,440
Speaker 2: She's she's making.

2034
01:55:17,880 --> 01:55:23,560
Speaker 1: She's acting in a way and according to the choices

2035
01:55:23,600 --> 01:55:26,880
Speaker 1: that she thinks she has without you know, again, to

2036
01:55:26,960 --> 01:55:32,080
Speaker 1: Renice's point, without fully understanding how much power she has,

2037
01:55:32,080 --> 01:55:36,800
Speaker 1: like she will come, she will come to regret putting

2038
01:55:37,360 --> 01:55:40,520
Speaker 1: Eggon on the throne. She will, she just will. She

2039
01:55:40,640 --> 01:55:45,240
Speaker 1: will only later. This is me theorizing she will only

2040
01:55:45,600 --> 01:55:49,040
Speaker 1: much later truly understand how much power she gave away

2041
01:55:49,040 --> 01:55:51,320
Speaker 1: in that moment she thinks like, Oh, we're gonna I'm

2042
01:55:51,320 --> 01:55:53,560
Speaker 1: gonna I'm his mother, I'm gonna influence him. This shit

2043
01:55:53,640 --> 01:55:56,520
Speaker 1: is out of your control already now it's out of

2044
01:55:56,520 --> 01:55:59,440
Speaker 1: your control, but it's gonna be almost completely out of

2045
01:55:59,480 --> 01:56:01,880
Speaker 1: your control as soon as he's c and the irony.

2046
01:56:01,560 --> 01:56:03,880
Speaker 5: Is she could literally sit on that throne as Queen

2047
01:56:03,920 --> 01:56:06,280
Speaker 5: Regent if she wanted to, or just queen. That's the

2048
01:56:06,320 --> 01:56:09,240
Speaker 5: funniest thing. She is currently the most powerful person.

2049
01:56:10,720 --> 01:56:12,840
Speaker 2: So you're under otto, you're under arrest.

2050
01:56:13,000 --> 01:56:15,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's call a great council and get the realm

2051
01:56:15,840 --> 01:56:16,480
Speaker 1: to get.

2052
01:56:17,520 --> 01:56:20,360
Speaker 5: It's Raniera and it's demon and we're all gonna find

2053
01:56:20,360 --> 01:56:22,440
Speaker 5: a way to rule together. It probably wouldn't last very long,

2054
01:56:22,480 --> 01:56:27,240
Speaker 5: but as we know, most of the Targarian rulers do

2055
01:56:27,320 --> 01:56:29,120
Speaker 5: not last very long in the history, so you could

2056
01:56:29,120 --> 01:56:31,920
Speaker 5: have at least given it a tribabe, but instead give

2057
01:56:31,960 --> 01:56:35,480
Speaker 5: it to Eggon. Oh my god, you're an idiot. He's

2058
01:56:35,480 --> 01:56:37,800
Speaker 5: a sociopath. And they do such a brilliant moment of

2059
01:56:37,960 --> 01:56:42,880
Speaker 5: showing the horrors of what he could potentially coming up.

2060
01:56:43,240 --> 01:56:47,320
Speaker 1: So it's the moment of Eggon's ascension. Sir Eric springs

2061
01:56:47,360 --> 01:56:49,720
Speaker 1: Rainie from her room, saying, I'm not gonna let this

2062
01:56:49,800 --> 01:56:55,680
Speaker 1: usurpatient stand. We see in a quick snippet that Laris's

2063
01:56:55,720 --> 01:56:59,160
Speaker 1: men have hit the white worms headquarters and it's in flames,

2064
01:57:00,120 --> 01:57:02,440
Speaker 1: though we don't see a body, So why would.

2065
01:57:06,120 --> 01:57:06,840
Speaker 2: She slid her away.

2066
01:57:07,120 --> 01:57:10,520
Speaker 1: Renice and and Eric are are kind of rushing through

2067
01:57:10,600 --> 01:57:12,200
Speaker 1: the city, but then they got caught up in the

2068
01:57:12,240 --> 01:57:14,360
Speaker 1: crowds that are heading to the dragon Pit. They're being

2069
01:57:14,400 --> 01:57:17,120
Speaker 1: herded there really by all the city watch guards because

2070
01:57:17,120 --> 01:57:19,960
Speaker 1: they want as many people to see this as absolutely possible.

2071
01:57:20,000 --> 01:57:23,320
Speaker 1: So Rene's ends up in the dragon pit. Meanwhile, Alison

2072
01:57:23,440 --> 01:57:26,760
Speaker 1: and egg On are riding there in their in their

2073
01:57:26,840 --> 01:57:31,840
Speaker 1: uber carriage, and Alison is again here here is that

2074
01:57:31,880 --> 01:57:35,960
Speaker 1: moment again right where Allison as the queen is telling

2075
01:57:36,080 --> 01:57:39,280
Speaker 1: Eggon what she wants. She's saying, listen, We're not going

2076
01:57:39,360 --> 01:57:41,160
Speaker 1: to make war against renierro going to try to make peace.

2077
01:57:41,240 --> 01:57:44,080
Speaker 1: I want you to rule with mercy. And then Eggon's

2078
01:57:44,120 --> 01:57:46,360
Speaker 1: just like, do you think dad loved me?

2079
01:57:46,880 --> 01:57:48,280
Speaker 2: It's like we're talking business.

2080
01:57:48,440 --> 01:57:52,760
Speaker 1: Literally, pull your pants up and understand that we're like

2081
01:57:53,480 --> 01:57:55,240
Speaker 1: a lot has been done to put you on the

2082
01:57:55,240 --> 01:57:58,320
Speaker 1: throne today. We need to talk business right now, not

2083
01:57:58,480 --> 01:58:02,280
Speaker 1: work through your fucking daddy issues. But of course, and

2084
01:58:02,760 --> 01:58:05,480
Speaker 1: it's interesting as well that Eggon sees through all this,

2085
01:58:05,600 --> 01:58:08,760
Speaker 1: He's like, listen, my dad. First of all, I could

2086
01:58:08,800 --> 01:58:10,640
Speaker 1: tell he didn't like me, and second of all, he

2087
01:58:10,680 --> 01:58:13,280
Speaker 1: could have changed his mind about who he wanted to

2088
01:58:13,280 --> 01:58:15,920
Speaker 1: be his heir. Anytime over the last twenty years, he

2089
01:58:15,960 --> 01:58:16,360
Speaker 1: never did.

2090
01:58:16,400 --> 01:58:16,920
Speaker 2: He never did.

2091
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:21,240
Speaker 1: Now he did it with his last breath. Okay, and anyway,

2092
01:58:21,360 --> 01:58:21,720
Speaker 1: in like.

2093
01:58:21,680 --> 01:58:25,360
Speaker 5: A good, like scary sociopath moment, the only thing that

2094
01:58:25,440 --> 01:58:28,440
Speaker 5: he seems to interest him or make him feel like

2095
01:58:28,480 --> 01:58:30,880
Speaker 5: it's worthwhile is when he gets the cat's poor blade

2096
01:58:31,160 --> 01:58:33,920
Speaker 5: and he's just looking feeling the power. It's the feeling

2097
01:58:33,920 --> 01:58:35,280
Speaker 5: of the power, and we get to see him have

2098
01:58:35,320 --> 01:58:37,440
Speaker 5: it again in a moment, and it's it's all. It's

2099
01:58:37,440 --> 01:58:39,720
Speaker 5: it's it's all gonna end badly. You just know it.

2100
01:58:40,280 --> 01:58:44,320
Speaker 1: It's going to end quite badly. So Eggon is anointed King.

2101
01:58:45,280 --> 01:58:48,040
Speaker 1: Kristen Cole puts the fucking crown of egg On the

2102
01:58:48,120 --> 01:58:49,800
Speaker 1: comperor on his head.

2103
01:58:50,600 --> 01:58:56,680
Speaker 3: Job pretty wild stuff. Eggon draws blackfire from its scabbard.

2104
01:58:56,720 --> 01:59:00,560
Speaker 1: He holds it aloft the people. It's to be a

2105
01:59:00,840 --> 01:59:03,200
Speaker 1: very very mild applause that breaks out.

2106
01:59:03,360 --> 01:59:06,520
Speaker 5: You can see in his eye he's still, Yeah, he

2107
01:59:06,680 --> 01:59:09,280
Speaker 5: feels that little moment of power when he's like.

2108
01:59:11,320 --> 01:59:15,120
Speaker 1: And it's phallic to know the whole thing of the symbology.

2109
01:59:15,160 --> 01:59:17,800
Speaker 5: He's realizing that he is like now the most powerful

2110
01:59:17,800 --> 01:59:20,000
Speaker 5: man on earth, which has like a regular rapist is

2111
01:59:20,000 --> 01:59:21,560
Speaker 5: probably like the best feeling in the world.

2112
01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:27,400
Speaker 1: And then here is the moment boom, there's the floor explodes.

2113
01:59:27,880 --> 01:59:28,560
Speaker 2: Untold.

2114
01:59:28,840 --> 01:59:32,760
Speaker 1: Scores of people or fall into the hole or crushed

2115
01:59:32,800 --> 01:59:37,400
Speaker 1: by the kind of explosion of rubble and rock and

2116
01:59:37,640 --> 01:59:41,440
Speaker 1: a cloud of dust that comes up as Malise Renie's

2117
01:59:41,480 --> 01:59:42,920
Speaker 1: dragon emerges from the hole.

2118
01:59:43,000 --> 01:59:44,600
Speaker 2: She's on the back of it.

2119
01:59:44,600 --> 01:59:49,400
Speaker 1: It it's the dragon looks at everybody on the on

2120
01:59:49,440 --> 01:59:56,440
Speaker 1: the dais there Renie Lock's eyes with Allison and mainlyst roars,

2121
01:59:57,080 --> 02:00:00,160
Speaker 1: but no flames, and then escape. She could have end

2122
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:03,960
Speaker 1: did it right there, but she doesn't. We should talk

2123
02:00:04,000 --> 02:00:05,240
Speaker 1: about this, let's start.

2124
02:00:05,560 --> 02:00:11,480
Speaker 2: He would have said your chorus, now here's my.

2125
02:00:13,040 --> 02:00:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm as frustrated as anyone, and I'm sure Damon and

2126
02:00:15,640 --> 02:00:16,640
Speaker 1: Rainier are going to be.

2127
02:00:16,640 --> 02:00:19,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely beside themselves. That said.

2128
02:00:20,920 --> 02:00:23,720
Speaker 1: Circe would have done so because to do it would

2129
02:00:23,720 --> 02:00:28,520
Speaker 1: have immediately made her queen. Right, Renie is in a

2130
02:00:28,640 --> 02:00:34,720
Speaker 1: much more complicated position. She does that, and it doesn't

2131
02:00:34,760 --> 02:00:38,000
Speaker 1: necessarily end the war. The high Towers have a huge

2132
02:00:38,160 --> 02:00:43,280
Speaker 1: fucking army that they could call, and they're not gonna

2133
02:00:43,360 --> 02:00:49,800
Speaker 1: just lay down and so she's in this place where, Okay,

2134
02:00:49,800 --> 02:00:52,640
Speaker 1: I do this, I start a war? Is it my

2135
02:00:52,720 --> 02:00:53,480
Speaker 1: war to start?

2136
02:00:54,800 --> 02:00:57,800
Speaker 2: Does do people see me as a hero or a villain?

2137
02:00:58,760 --> 02:00:59,920
Speaker 2: Which side win?

2138
02:01:02,160 --> 02:01:06,640
Speaker 1: I've done my job by escaping, and what comes after

2139
02:01:06,680 --> 02:01:11,320
Speaker 1: that is really like above my peak grade. Now, I again,

2140
02:01:11,400 --> 02:01:13,800
Speaker 1: if it was Circe, Circe would have done it, because

2141
02:01:14,160 --> 02:01:18,440
Speaker 1: immediately she's queen. If Rene does it, it's kind of

2142
02:01:18,520 --> 02:01:22,000
Speaker 1: unclear what happens. We would think that the war would

2143
02:01:22,040 --> 02:01:25,880
Speaker 1: be over, and certainly the leadership would have been decapitated.

2144
02:01:26,440 --> 02:01:29,520
Speaker 1: But again, House High Tower is not going to just

2145
02:01:29,760 --> 02:01:33,560
Speaker 1: fucking lay down. The supporters of the Greens are probably

2146
02:01:33,600 --> 02:01:37,720
Speaker 1: not just gonna lay down, and Rania still has the

2147
02:01:37,800 --> 02:01:41,720
Speaker 1: problem of lots of dragons, not a lot of riders,

2148
02:01:41,840 --> 02:01:46,400
Speaker 1: not a lot of foot soldiers to take this country.

2149
02:01:46,800 --> 02:01:47,240
Speaker 2: I don't know.

2150
02:01:47,320 --> 02:01:49,920
Speaker 1: It's complicated though, but it is. It's so frushing because

2151
02:01:49,920 --> 02:01:50,960
Speaker 1: you're like, just fucking do.

2152
02:01:51,000 --> 02:01:53,600
Speaker 5: It, just do it. I love I love I love

2153
02:01:53,600 --> 02:01:56,200
Speaker 5: Olivia Cook, and I feel a lot of empathy for Alison,

2154
02:01:56,240 --> 02:01:58,400
Speaker 5: but I was still like, please just bud them. Even Helena,

2155
02:01:58,440 --> 02:02:02,360
Speaker 5: who I'm like Helena, but even but I think you

2156
02:02:02,440 --> 02:02:04,920
Speaker 5: raise a really, really good point also something that I

2157
02:02:04,920 --> 02:02:07,120
Speaker 5: think is kind of hard when we think about it

2158
02:02:07,160 --> 02:02:10,800
Speaker 5: in Game of Thrones Thrones term obviously, like we think

2159
02:02:10,840 --> 02:02:14,640
Speaker 5: about Circe blowing up, you know, the sept and everything,

2160
02:02:14,760 --> 02:02:16,960
Speaker 5: and we think about it. But the other thing, like

2161
02:02:17,000 --> 02:02:19,880
Speaker 5: you made a great point, right, this isn't really a

2162
02:02:19,920 --> 02:02:22,480
Speaker 5: world where it's just like Denaris on a dragon and

2163
02:02:22,520 --> 02:02:24,880
Speaker 5: everyone's gonna bow down to you because you have a dragon.

2164
02:02:25,560 --> 02:02:29,040
Speaker 5: If Renice kills them, there's just other dragons, Like, it's

2165
02:02:29,080 --> 02:02:31,200
Speaker 5: not like she. The high towers are not going to

2166
02:02:31,280 --> 02:02:35,280
Speaker 5: be like oh no, like dragons like they're gonna be like, well,

2167
02:02:35,320 --> 02:02:38,000
Speaker 5: you just killed our whole family and ended our one claim,

2168
02:02:38,000 --> 02:02:41,000
Speaker 5: and we know the high towers are. And that's what

2169
02:02:41,120 --> 02:02:43,320
Speaker 5: I was gonna say. I think the history books. I

2170
02:02:43,400 --> 02:02:46,520
Speaker 5: actually think the two things that you hit on that

2171
02:02:46,560 --> 02:02:49,680
Speaker 5: I hadn't really thought about until this conversation is the

2172
02:02:49,760 --> 02:02:52,240
Speaker 5: history books. How are you remembered? That is such a

2173
02:02:52,320 --> 02:02:55,400
Speaker 5: huge and it would have been less you know, the

2174
02:02:55,520 --> 02:02:58,560
Speaker 5: king's or the royal like whatever, it would be like

2175
02:02:58,600 --> 02:03:01,440
Speaker 5: the entire the Targara Slayer. You know that? Oh because

2176
02:03:01,480 --> 02:03:05,040
Speaker 5: also you know, like you said, not only did you

2177
02:03:05,120 --> 02:03:07,040
Speaker 5: kill a king, but you killed your kin, which is

2178
02:03:07,080 --> 02:03:09,360
Speaker 5: like the worst thing you can do. And then on

2179
02:03:09,400 --> 02:03:13,240
Speaker 5: top of that, she still has family that she loves

2180
02:03:13,920 --> 02:03:17,960
Speaker 5: who would immediately be put in danger by that choice.

2181
02:03:18,600 --> 02:03:26,000
Speaker 5: And I think that is a very interesting feeling, I think,

2182
02:03:26,040 --> 02:03:29,760
Speaker 5: if I'm not mistaken. In the post credit behind the

2183
02:03:29,800 --> 02:03:32,680
Speaker 5: scenes stuff, one of the creators of the show also

2184
02:03:32,800 --> 02:03:36,640
Speaker 5: mentioned like they they really felt like it was something

2185
02:03:36,680 --> 02:03:40,760
Speaker 5: that was a mother looking on a mother and being like,

2186
02:03:40,880 --> 02:03:43,040
Speaker 5: I wouldn't I don't want to kill your children, like

2187
02:03:43,080 --> 02:03:45,960
Speaker 5: I've been through that, Like I don't want to. I

2188
02:03:45,960 --> 02:03:47,840
Speaker 5: don't want you to have to go through that, but

2189
02:03:47,880 --> 02:03:51,080
Speaker 5: I do. I think you touched on some really good things.

2190
02:03:51,120 --> 02:03:54,240
Speaker 5: I think this idea of legacy and how you would

2191
02:03:54,240 --> 02:03:57,960
Speaker 5: be remembered and then the reality of what that would

2192
02:03:58,000 --> 02:04:01,560
Speaker 5: have been and how it would have actually ended up

2193
02:04:01,560 --> 02:04:04,960
Speaker 5: playing out is so different to that kind of cathartic

2194
02:04:05,080 --> 02:04:07,680
Speaker 5: classic Game of Thrones ending where you just read wedding

2195
02:04:07,720 --> 02:04:09,760
Speaker 5: it or you just like kill a bunch of people.

2196
02:04:09,880 --> 02:04:10,000
Speaker 3: Right.

2197
02:04:10,400 --> 02:04:13,040
Speaker 1: It's like it's like Jamie Lanister, right, he did the

2198
02:04:13,080 --> 02:04:16,600
Speaker 1: most heroic thing he had ever done in his life

2199
02:04:16,840 --> 02:04:18,720
Speaker 1: by killing aries the mad camp.

2200
02:04:18,880 --> 02:04:19,040
Speaker 2: Right.

2201
02:04:19,160 --> 02:04:23,320
Speaker 1: That was that was absolutely that was the right thing

2202
02:04:23,440 --> 02:04:23,720
Speaker 1: to do.

2203
02:04:23,880 --> 02:04:27,360
Speaker 5: Unquestionably, he was so many lives.

2204
02:04:27,280 --> 02:04:30,960
Speaker 1: Saved so many lives, became a true hero, the one

2205
02:04:31,000 --> 02:04:33,280
Speaker 1: that he'd always pretended to be, the kind of like

2206
02:04:33,360 --> 02:04:37,200
Speaker 1: hero that like they sing songs about, and he was

2207
02:04:37,240 --> 02:04:40,080
Speaker 1: treated as a pariah and the entire life after a joke,

2208
02:04:41,040 --> 02:04:44,720
Speaker 1: broke his oath, killed the king, no one trusts him,

2209
02:04:44,920 --> 02:04:48,120
Speaker 1: no one like here is the most good thing he

2210
02:04:48,160 --> 02:04:50,600
Speaker 1: has ever done, and no one will ever give him

2211
02:04:50,600 --> 02:04:52,920
Speaker 1: the credit for it. Is seen as a truly evil,

2212
02:04:53,040 --> 02:04:54,320
Speaker 1: bad thing that he did.

2213
02:04:54,440 --> 02:04:56,720
Speaker 5: I think about I know it's not I just I

2214
02:04:56,800 --> 02:05:00,240
Speaker 5: think about that episode with him and Briann so much

2215
02:05:00,760 --> 02:05:03,480
Speaker 5: in the tub when he tells her for the time

2216
02:05:03,640 --> 02:05:07,920
Speaker 5: the truth. That is just one of the most heartbreaking

2217
02:05:07,960 --> 02:05:10,400
Speaker 5: scenes on TV, and it's so good and I love

2218
02:05:11,320 --> 02:05:14,480
Speaker 5: that really speaks to what I think is one of

2219
02:05:14,560 --> 02:05:16,880
Speaker 5: the best things that House of the Dragon is carrying

2220
02:05:16,920 --> 02:05:19,440
Speaker 5: over from Game of Thrones, which is this idea of

2221
02:05:19,480 --> 02:05:23,200
Speaker 5: having characters who do terrible things, but who are complex

2222
02:05:23,240 --> 02:05:25,640
Speaker 5: and who are human and who are not too dimensional,

2223
02:05:26,080 --> 02:05:28,400
Speaker 5: and who can exist on the side of both right

2224
02:05:28,480 --> 02:05:31,440
Speaker 5: and wrong and disgusting and noble. And I feel like

2225
02:05:31,480 --> 02:05:34,120
Speaker 5: they're really bringing that in a very interesting way but

2226
02:05:34,240 --> 02:05:39,240
Speaker 5: I am like so interested to see I love Renie.

2227
02:05:39,640 --> 02:05:41,480
Speaker 2: I am like, I think she's my favorite character.

2228
02:05:41,760 --> 02:05:45,840
Speaker 5: Make queen, like I am here for it, give her justice.

2229
02:05:45,840 --> 02:05:48,960
Speaker 5: But like, I want to know how that plays out

2230
02:05:49,000 --> 02:05:51,320
Speaker 5: because I feel like that in its own that could

2231
02:05:51,360 --> 02:05:53,280
Speaker 5: have been a bottle episode in its own, But we're

2232
02:05:53,320 --> 02:05:56,120
Speaker 5: about to go into the finale, So like, how does

2233
02:05:56,160 --> 02:05:59,320
Speaker 5: it play out if her next step is Dragonstone?

2234
02:05:59,520 --> 02:06:03,560
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, bringing the news of what has occurred. They're

2235
02:06:03,560 --> 02:06:06,160
Speaker 1: going to say, Okay, how'd you get out number one?

2236
02:06:07,000 --> 02:06:11,640
Speaker 1: Number two? And then you just flew away. You know

2237
02:06:11,720 --> 02:06:14,400
Speaker 1: there's going there's going to be some kind of a

2238
02:06:14,480 --> 02:06:16,560
Speaker 1: reckoning and she's going to have to answer for that.

2239
02:06:17,600 --> 02:06:19,520
Speaker 1: But again, I think that her position is a lot

2240
02:06:19,600 --> 02:06:22,440
Speaker 1: more complex, I think than it appears to be.

2241
02:06:22,640 --> 02:06:24,440
Speaker 5: Okay, I want to ask you one question, and this

2242
02:06:24,480 --> 02:06:26,320
Speaker 5: is going to be a classic me asking you a

2243
02:06:26,400 --> 02:06:28,320
Speaker 5: question you can't answer, right because I'm not going to

2244
02:06:28,360 --> 02:06:30,240
Speaker 5: be specific because I don't want to do any spoilers.

2245
02:06:30,480 --> 02:06:33,080
Speaker 5: But I've enjoyed so much reading about the histories and

2246
02:06:33,080 --> 02:06:37,800
Speaker 5: reading stuff. How closely in the finale do you think

2247
02:06:37,840 --> 02:06:40,360
Speaker 5: that they're going to stick to what we know of

2248
02:06:40,400 --> 02:06:44,600
Speaker 5: the books and what happens after aggon Is is anointed.

2249
02:06:46,240 --> 02:06:50,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's been pretty much on book up until now. Obviously,

2250
02:06:50,280 --> 02:06:53,280
Speaker 1: the dragon coming out of the dragon pit is nowhere

2251
02:06:53,360 --> 02:06:55,360
Speaker 1: in the books, and you have to imagine that that's

2252
02:06:56,080 --> 02:06:59,280
Speaker 1: not them filling in details. That's an ad, right, that's

2253
02:06:59,320 --> 02:07:02,280
Speaker 1: not something that actually happened, but the historians ignored because

2254
02:07:02,280 --> 02:07:05,680
Speaker 1: you would imagine that's pretty hard to ignore dragon.

2255
02:07:05,320 --> 02:07:07,240
Speaker 5: Bursting at least about it.

2256
02:07:09,440 --> 02:07:13,520
Speaker 1: So, yeah, you know that that news is getting out,

2257
02:07:13,600 --> 02:07:16,520
Speaker 1: so I have to imagine that's an ad. But but overall,

2258
02:07:18,280 --> 02:07:20,480
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be I think it's going to

2259
02:07:20,520 --> 02:07:24,440
Speaker 1: be pretty much what we know from the books.

2260
02:07:24,640 --> 02:07:27,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very excited with a lot of color added.

2261
02:07:27,240 --> 02:07:28,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, to see.

2262
02:07:29,320 --> 02:07:31,640
Speaker 1: Up next more House of the Dragon and ask the master.

2263
02:07:33,560 --> 02:07:36,320
Speaker 2: Folks, have you heard about this? Dragons have arrived.

2264
02:07:35,960 --> 02:07:37,520
Speaker 5: On HBO Max, don't believe it.

2265
02:07:37,680 --> 02:07:39,880
Speaker 1: The HBO original series How's the Dragon is a prequel

2266
02:07:39,880 --> 02:07:41,880
Speaker 1: set two hundred years before the events of Game of Thrones.

2267
02:07:41,880 --> 02:07:43,880
Speaker 1: How's the Dragon tells the story of how Stargarian locked

2268
02:07:43,920 --> 02:07:45,680
Speaker 1: in an epic battle for the Iron Throne and power

2269
02:07:45,720 --> 02:07:48,640
Speaker 1: over the Seven Kingdom's. The epic series promises more drama

2270
02:07:48,640 --> 02:07:50,960
Speaker 1: and betrayal than ever. Listen to the official Game of

2271
02:07:51,000 --> 02:07:54,720
Speaker 1: Thrones podcast House of the Dragon, closed by myself and

2272
02:07:54,800 --> 02:07:58,080
Speaker 1: Nerdett's Greta Johnson on HBO, Max, the iHeartRadio app or

2273
02:07:58,120 --> 02:08:01,280
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, and to celebrate, we're gonna

2274
02:08:01,280 --> 02:08:02,120
Speaker 1: answer your questions.

2275
02:08:02,320 --> 02:08:02,800
Speaker 2: Here we go.

2276
02:08:03,680 --> 02:08:06,960
Speaker 5: William asks, are dragons a sexual?

2277
02:08:08,160 --> 02:08:12,720
Speaker 1: This is a very interesting and important question, and the

2278
02:08:12,720 --> 02:08:19,360
Speaker 1: books disagree, and the various historians and observers of dragon

2279
02:08:19,400 --> 02:08:23,040
Speaker 1: biology and history through the throughout the books disagree on

2280
02:08:23,080 --> 02:08:26,800
Speaker 1: it as well. Some of our fictional sources seem to suggest,

2281
02:08:26,840 --> 02:08:30,960
Speaker 1: and I personally believe the dragons are gender fluid and

2282
02:08:31,000 --> 02:08:37,280
Speaker 1: the gender changes as the need arises. So if there's

2283
02:08:37,320 --> 02:08:38,960
Speaker 1: not a lot of dragons in the world anymore eggs,

2284
02:08:38,960 --> 02:08:42,480
Speaker 1: all of a sudden a dragon is female and vice versa.

2285
02:08:42,920 --> 02:08:47,720
Speaker 1: Here is Master aim and Targerian from Feast for Crows,

2286
02:08:47,880 --> 02:08:50,800
Speaker 1: quoting Septin Barth, he says, quote, dragons are neither male

2287
02:08:50,880 --> 02:08:53,600
Speaker 1: nor female. Barth saw the truth of that, but now

2288
02:08:53,720 --> 02:08:57,600
Speaker 1: one and now the other, as changeable as flame. Other

2289
02:08:57,720 --> 02:09:00,680
Speaker 1: figures in the books disagree with this. For instance, c

2290
02:09:00,880 --> 02:09:03,480
Speaker 1: rax Vernier's dragon is referred to as a she dragon

2291
02:09:03,560 --> 02:09:08,320
Speaker 1: by various fictional historians. Because the beast has been known

2292
02:09:08,360 --> 02:09:11,920
Speaker 1: to lay eggs, you's been seen laying eggs, Therefore she dragon.

2293
02:09:12,520 --> 02:09:18,960
Speaker 1: Subscribers to the binary gender theory of dragon biology basically say,

2294
02:09:19,520 --> 02:09:22,040
Speaker 1: if it lays eggs, it's a she. If you never

2295
02:09:22,080 --> 02:09:24,480
Speaker 1: saw it like eggs, it's a male. It's very simple.

2296
02:09:25,840 --> 02:09:29,680
Speaker 1: All that said, and I think this is important. There

2297
02:09:29,760 --> 02:09:33,120
Speaker 1: are no sources that mentioned dragon sex or the act

2298
02:09:33,160 --> 02:09:36,480
Speaker 1: of a male dragon fertilizing dragon eggs, and you would

2299
02:09:36,520 --> 02:09:40,839
Speaker 1: imagine that something like that would be incredibly hard to miss. Therefore,

2300
02:09:40,880 --> 02:09:43,080
Speaker 1: I lean to the gender fluid theory of dragons and

2301
02:09:43,120 --> 02:09:45,200
Speaker 1: also their magic that would just makes sense.

2302
02:09:45,080 --> 02:09:47,360
Speaker 5: There just magically lay an egg when you need to

2303
02:09:47,440 --> 02:09:55,640
Speaker 5: lay an egg. Yeah, and also very drastic pop. Jeff asks,

2304
02:09:55,960 --> 02:09:59,120
Speaker 5: is it possible that Mace the Amen or Brendan Rivers

2305
02:09:59,200 --> 02:10:02,600
Speaker 5: knew about that prophecy of recurring theme? Let's talk about it.

2306
02:10:02,520 --> 02:10:03,360
Speaker 2: A recurring theme.

2307
02:10:03,520 --> 02:10:05,880
Speaker 1: So we've covered this before, but I love talking about

2308
02:10:05,880 --> 02:10:08,240
Speaker 1: it so much time, but like, let's just catch it

2309
02:10:08,320 --> 02:10:13,440
Speaker 1: up and specifically drill down on Brendan Rivers, the blood

2310
02:10:13,480 --> 02:10:16,600
Speaker 1: raven Ak, the three Eyed Crow, one of the famous

2311
02:10:16,640 --> 02:10:19,320
Speaker 1: bastards of egg On the Fourth, egg On the Unworthy

2312
02:10:19,880 --> 02:10:23,080
Speaker 1: and Master Amon of the man who could have been

2313
02:10:23,160 --> 02:10:26,320
Speaker 1: King but decided to pass. So after the death of

2314
02:10:26,400 --> 02:10:28,480
Speaker 1: King Maker in two thirty three, a great Council was

2315
02:10:29,000 --> 02:10:32,280
Speaker 1: called in order to decide the next ruler. Anus Blackfire,

2316
02:10:32,720 --> 02:10:37,200
Speaker 1: son of Damon Blackfire, leader of the first Blackfire Rebellion,

2317
02:10:37,360 --> 02:10:43,360
Speaker 1: and the person who basically launched multiple rebellions that caused

2318
02:10:43,400 --> 02:10:46,160
Speaker 1: multiple rebellions against the Targetians to happen all under the

2319
02:10:46,840 --> 02:10:51,280
Speaker 1: banner of Blackfire rebellions, wanted to attend to put forth

2320
02:10:51,320 --> 02:10:54,360
Speaker 1: his claim. He's a Blackfire, but also like Damon Blackfire

2321
02:10:54,440 --> 02:10:57,680
Speaker 1: had you know, has Blackfire the sort of kings and

2322
02:10:58,360 --> 02:11:01,080
Speaker 1: egg On the Fourth really liked him, and everybody seemed

2323
02:11:01,080 --> 02:11:02,560
Speaker 1: to think he would have been a good ruler had

2324
02:11:02,600 --> 02:11:05,040
Speaker 1: he not been a bastard, although he was legitimized. And

2325
02:11:05,080 --> 02:11:07,960
Speaker 1: so Anus is like, let me come to King's landing

2326
02:11:07,960 --> 02:11:10,200
Speaker 1: and put forward my claim since we're all voting on this.

2327
02:11:10,280 --> 02:11:14,800
Speaker 1: Brendan Rivers another Vegon's bastard's key figure in West Rosia politics,

2328
02:11:15,200 --> 02:11:18,080
Speaker 1: and make Car's hand said sure, absolutely, come through Anus,

2329
02:11:18,080 --> 02:11:23,880
Speaker 1: that'd be great. Now important to mention Brendan was a

2330
02:11:23,920 --> 02:11:27,919
Speaker 1: pivotal figure all throughout the Blackfire Rebellions. His heroic efforts

2331
02:11:27,920 --> 02:11:30,960
Speaker 1: at the Battle of Red Grass Field helped turn the

2332
02:11:31,080 --> 02:11:35,440
Speaker 1: tide and helped ensure a Loyalist victory. He put down

2333
02:11:35,480 --> 02:11:38,720
Speaker 1: the Second Blackfire Rebellion basically on his own accord, arresting

2334
02:11:38,800 --> 02:11:41,560
Speaker 1: Damon Blackfire the second, who is by the way, a

2335
02:11:41,640 --> 02:11:45,840
Speaker 1: dragon dreamer, much like he had that Targerian gift for prophecy,

2336
02:11:46,360 --> 02:11:49,600
Speaker 1: as chance would have it, managed to arrest him before

2337
02:11:50,360 --> 02:11:53,600
Speaker 1: the Pretender's plans could be fully realized. And then Brendan

2338
02:11:54,200 --> 02:11:57,240
Speaker 1: dueled ag Or Bitter Steel Rivers for a second time

2339
02:11:57,320 --> 02:12:02,200
Speaker 1: during the climactic battle of the Third Blackfire Billion when

2340
02:12:02,960 --> 02:12:07,000
Speaker 1: that force was attempting to put Hagon Blackfire.

2341
02:12:06,520 --> 02:12:07,640
Speaker 2: On the throne.

2342
02:12:08,040 --> 02:12:16,120
Speaker 1: Then when Hagon Blackfire surrendered, he was then dishonorably beheaded

2343
02:12:16,200 --> 02:12:18,760
Speaker 1: on the battlefield after giving up his sword. A no, no,

2344
02:12:18,920 --> 02:12:23,320
Speaker 1: but it's it's heavily suggested that that happened, probably on

2345
02:12:23,360 --> 02:12:27,640
Speaker 1: Brendan's orders. And then Brendan Rivers also argued for Agor

2346
02:12:27,760 --> 02:12:32,480
Speaker 1: rivers execution, but he was overruled, and then Agor later escaped.

2347
02:12:32,480 --> 02:12:35,960
Speaker 1: Now I say all that because when Ana's Blackfire arrived

2348
02:12:35,960 --> 02:12:38,920
Speaker 1: for the Great council, you know, thinking, great, I'm going

2349
02:12:38,960 --> 02:12:39,520
Speaker 1: to have my chance.

2350
02:12:39,560 --> 02:12:41,240
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say my peace. I'm going to have my

2351
02:12:41,320 --> 02:12:41,960
Speaker 2: chance to be king.

2352
02:12:42,040 --> 02:12:47,760
Speaker 1: Maybe he was then arrested and illegally dishonorably beheaded in

2353
02:12:47,840 --> 02:12:52,120
Speaker 1: the fucking dungeons, right, King, and probably again.

2354
02:12:51,920 --> 02:12:53,240
Speaker 2: On Brendan Rivers orders.

2355
02:12:53,280 --> 02:12:55,680
Speaker 1: We know this because kinging On the fifth as soon

2356
02:12:55,720 --> 02:12:57,880
Speaker 1: as he became king, one of his first acts was

2357
02:12:57,920 --> 02:13:00,880
Speaker 1: to arrest Brendan for the murder and have him sent

2358
02:13:00,920 --> 02:13:02,919
Speaker 1: to the wall as part of the group that included

2359
02:13:03,240 --> 02:13:07,480
Speaker 1: Master Raymond, brother of the now king. Now important context

2360
02:13:08,120 --> 02:13:11,160
Speaker 1: egg On the Fifth's reign began in the middle of

2361
02:13:11,200 --> 02:13:13,960
Speaker 1: a very very serious winter, and as we've talked about before,

2362
02:13:14,000 --> 02:13:16,800
Speaker 1: any king who knew about the prophecy, any person who

2363
02:13:16,880 --> 02:13:21,879
Speaker 1: knew about the prophecy would view winter and with alarm

2364
02:13:22,000 --> 02:13:24,600
Speaker 1: would be like, oh shit, is this the one right now?

2365
02:13:25,400 --> 02:13:28,640
Speaker 1: More important contexts. The realm had just been through numerous

2366
02:13:29,360 --> 02:13:34,320
Speaker 1: rebellions that threatened to not just topple the Targerian dynasty,

2367
02:13:34,320 --> 02:13:36,640
Speaker 1: but if you believe in the prophecy, put the entire

2368
02:13:36,760 --> 02:13:41,960
Speaker 1: world at stake. Now, thinking about that cast these events

2369
02:13:42,000 --> 02:13:46,720
Speaker 1: in different lights. What if Brendan's two dishonorable executions of

2370
02:13:46,720 --> 02:13:50,480
Speaker 1: Blackfire pretenders with the attempted third execution of Agor Rivers

2371
02:13:50,800 --> 02:13:55,280
Speaker 1: weren't just he's like a fierce targarian loyalist, but desperate

2372
02:13:55,320 --> 02:13:59,120
Speaker 1: measures taken to neutralize threats to the entire world. He's

2373
02:13:59,200 --> 02:14:02,320
Speaker 1: doing this because, as he knows, if they win, the

2374
02:14:02,360 --> 02:14:03,080
Speaker 1: world is done.

2375
02:14:03,120 --> 02:14:04,040
Speaker 2: The White Walkers win.

2376
02:14:04,720 --> 02:14:10,400
Speaker 1: Now interesting point. People were surprised at Brendan Rivers rise

2377
02:14:10,440 --> 02:14:14,120
Speaker 1: to hand of the king under King Aris, But apparently

2378
02:14:14,160 --> 02:14:17,120
Speaker 1: it was due to quote his interest in our cane

2379
02:14:17,200 --> 02:14:18,600
Speaker 1: lore and ancient history.

2380
02:14:18,360 --> 02:14:19,879
Speaker 2: Which was shared by King Aries.

2381
02:14:20,480 --> 02:14:24,000
Speaker 1: So and again people were surprised that they were like,

2382
02:14:24,040 --> 02:14:27,480
Speaker 1: how what Brendan Rivers really handed the king? I would

2383
02:14:27,560 --> 02:14:32,880
Speaker 1: explain it this way, what if Rivers I knew about

2384
02:14:32,920 --> 02:14:35,320
Speaker 1: the prophecy, and not just knew about the prophecy, but

2385
02:14:35,400 --> 02:14:39,440
Speaker 1: maybe rediscovered it after the knowledge of it had been lost? Right,

2386
02:14:40,120 --> 02:14:44,440
Speaker 1: and that's why Aries trusted him? Under this theory? A

2387
02:14:44,680 --> 02:14:46,600
Speaker 1: on the fifth, who would know about it? Right, then

2388
02:14:46,720 --> 02:14:50,000
Speaker 1: sends his brother Aimond and cousin Brendan to the wall

2389
02:14:50,080 --> 02:14:54,520
Speaker 1: in the middle of winter, not as prisoners, you know,

2390
02:14:54,640 --> 02:14:57,280
Speaker 1: sent to the wall in order to head off a

2391
02:14:57,360 --> 02:15:01,200
Speaker 1: potential rebellion in which usurpers who's aimed as like a

2392
02:15:01,320 --> 02:15:04,160
Speaker 1: focal point to like you know, threaten turge Aaron rule,

2393
02:15:04,400 --> 02:15:07,480
Speaker 1: but as scouts, like forward scouts to keep an eye

2394
02:15:07,520 --> 02:15:09,440
Speaker 1: on the enemy. And we know, of course that Brendan

2395
02:15:09,520 --> 02:15:12,080
Speaker 1: Rivers then goes beyond the wall to get an even

2396
02:15:12,160 --> 02:15:15,800
Speaker 1: closer look at the White Walkers. So basically, yes, I

2397
02:15:15,840 --> 02:15:18,240
Speaker 1: think I think Brendan Rivers knew about it, and I

2398
02:15:18,240 --> 02:15:22,880
Speaker 1: think that's why egg on the fifth sent Aimed and

2399
02:15:22,960 --> 02:15:26,879
Speaker 1: Brandon to the wall, because he wanted people he trusted

2400
02:15:26,960 --> 02:15:28,720
Speaker 1: as close to the enemy as possible.

2401
02:15:28,800 --> 02:15:31,040
Speaker 5: Okay, Jeff, thank you for asking that. Yeah, because that

2402
02:15:31,200 --> 02:15:34,200
Speaker 5: is definitely almost in depth theory on this ever.

2403
02:15:34,320 --> 02:15:36,920
Speaker 7: And this is either going to be the ultimate we

2404
02:15:36,920 --> 02:15:39,960
Speaker 7: were right bell ring or I wonder HBO is just

2405
02:15:40,040 --> 02:15:43,240
Speaker 7: gonna call up Jason to write this inevitable story because

2406
02:15:43,280 --> 02:15:46,240
Speaker 7: I was engrossed that is, like, that's so good.

2407
02:15:46,320 --> 02:15:50,480
Speaker 5: Okay, Jake asks, is it common for a third son

2408
02:15:50,560 --> 02:15:53,840
Speaker 5: to be sent right away like dare on the Daring.

2409
02:15:54,400 --> 02:15:57,160
Speaker 1: Right, So this comes on the heels of confirmation from

2410
02:15:57,200 --> 02:15:59,680
Speaker 1: George R. Martin and Kosho run a Ryan Condall that

2411
02:15:59,760 --> 02:16:02,200
Speaker 1: Dare on the Daring. The third son of the Sarah's

2412
02:16:02,200 --> 02:16:08,040
Speaker 1: and Allison writer of Tosarion does exist. We just didn't

2413
02:16:08,040 --> 02:16:10,560
Speaker 1: see him and he's living in old Town, just chilling. Yeah,

2414
02:16:10,600 --> 02:16:16,400
Speaker 1: this happens a lot, you know, like one, because it's

2415
02:16:16,440 --> 02:16:19,480
Speaker 1: important for houses who are in alliance to foster deeper

2416
02:16:19,480 --> 02:16:20,480
Speaker 1: connections with each other.

2417
02:16:20,520 --> 02:16:21,120
Speaker 2: Remember that.

2418
02:16:22,800 --> 02:16:28,280
Speaker 1: Part of like the prehistory of Game of Thrones was

2419
02:16:28,320 --> 02:16:30,800
Speaker 1: the relationship between ned Stark and Robert Barrathian and.

2420
02:16:30,800 --> 02:16:32,200
Speaker 2: The fact that they both.

2421
02:16:33,600 --> 02:16:37,039
Speaker 1: Fostered at the Veil under Lord Aaron, and that's how

2422
02:16:37,040 --> 02:16:39,760
Speaker 1: they became close friends. Right, So this is just the way,

2423
02:16:40,680 --> 02:16:42,200
Speaker 1: and it doesn't even have to be the third son.

2424
02:16:42,240 --> 02:16:45,240
Speaker 1: It could be any son really, but most often it

2425
02:16:45,360 --> 02:16:47,760
Speaker 1: is the son who is not the heir, right, the

2426
02:16:47,800 --> 02:16:50,039
Speaker 1: second and third sons who are sent to either be

2427
02:16:50,120 --> 02:16:53,680
Speaker 1: a cupbearer for this person, or go squire for this lord,

2428
02:16:53,760 --> 02:16:54,600
Speaker 1: or do this, you know.

2429
02:16:54,600 --> 02:16:55,320
Speaker 2: Go to this place.

2430
02:16:55,640 --> 02:16:58,800
Speaker 1: But it's all in service of you know, there's no television,

2431
02:16:58,840 --> 02:17:03,480
Speaker 1: there's only this is all in service of fostering deeper

2432
02:17:03,520 --> 02:17:09,200
Speaker 1: connections and future alliances with various important families throughout the realm.

2433
02:17:09,200 --> 02:17:11,240
Speaker 1: That's why weddings take place in the way they do,

2434
02:17:11,400 --> 02:17:15,039
Speaker 1: and that's why these royals, young royals are sent off

2435
02:17:15,080 --> 02:17:15,840
Speaker 1: in the way that they are.

2436
02:17:17,280 --> 02:17:20,920
Speaker 5: Casey asks, if we are watching the Targarian dynasty at

2437
02:17:20,920 --> 02:17:23,800
Speaker 5: its height, why are there so few Targarians.

2438
02:17:24,400 --> 02:17:29,080
Speaker 1: There's actually a lot, Casey. We have Raniera, Visa's many

2439
02:17:29,160 --> 02:17:32,439
Speaker 1: rest in peace, their children, Jace, Luke and Jeoffrey.

2440
02:17:33,560 --> 02:17:34,560
Speaker 2: Of course, there's.

2441
02:17:34,360 --> 02:17:38,920
Speaker 1: Eggon, Aimund Helena and darn Chets to darn for existing.

2442
02:17:39,720 --> 02:17:43,920
Speaker 1: We have Nice Targarian. We have her children Lena, or

2443
02:17:44,000 --> 02:17:48,520
Speaker 1: and Lena of course, Damon Targarian, his children Baylan, Raina,

2444
02:17:48,720 --> 02:17:52,879
Speaker 1: plus any number of Targerian bastards who are running around

2445
02:17:52,959 --> 02:17:55,080
Speaker 1: King's Landing in various other places. So there's actually like

2446
02:17:55,120 --> 02:17:56,320
Speaker 1: a lot of them right now.

2447
02:17:57,400 --> 02:18:00,880
Speaker 5: Jonathan asks, why doesn't Rainy kill the Greens.

2448
02:18:01,280 --> 02:18:03,240
Speaker 2: I think I think we answered this. I think we

2449
02:18:03,280 --> 02:18:03,680
Speaker 2: answer this.

2450
02:18:04,040 --> 02:18:09,720
Speaker 1: But I but again, I'm sure that this is a

2451
02:18:09,840 --> 02:18:14,320
Speaker 1: choice that not just frustrates the audience, but will frustrate

2452
02:18:14,400 --> 02:18:17,520
Speaker 1: people in this world who will be like, what the fuck?

2453
02:18:18,480 --> 02:18:21,640
Speaker 5: Kangan asks, why does it seem like so many names

2454
02:18:21,640 --> 02:18:23,360
Speaker 5: are repeated within a generation?

2455
02:18:24,600 --> 02:18:27,160
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, this is like, this is what happens

2456
02:18:28,240 --> 02:18:31,920
Speaker 1: in our real world. There have been eleven King Edwards,

2457
02:18:32,920 --> 02:18:36,119
Speaker 1: Kings of England, right, you know how many three Charles

2458
02:18:36,200 --> 02:18:42,080
Speaker 1: is now several Henry's many many Henry's. You know, if

2459
02:18:42,120 --> 02:18:45,359
Speaker 1: you go to France, there were sixteen Louis.

2460
02:18:45,920 --> 02:18:46,440
Speaker 2: This is.

2461
02:18:47,920 --> 02:18:51,240
Speaker 1: This is a world in which the symbols of power

2462
02:18:51,400 --> 02:18:55,840
Speaker 1: are very very important for stability and for people to

2463
02:18:56,040 --> 02:18:58,200
Speaker 1: understand who the ruler is. And one of the ways

2464
02:18:58,240 --> 02:18:59,920
Speaker 1: you do that in a in a world in which

2465
02:19:00,120 --> 02:19:02,119
Speaker 1: many of the population are not going to be able

2466
02:19:02,120 --> 02:19:04,360
Speaker 1: to read. They're not like reading a newspaper. They don't

2467
02:19:04,400 --> 02:19:08,480
Speaker 1: know anything. All they know is King Eggon. They've heard

2468
02:19:08,560 --> 02:19:11,320
Speaker 1: stories about King Eggon the conquer and therefore if there's

2469
02:19:11,360 --> 02:19:14,840
Speaker 1: another king named Eggon, perfect that's the king. That's all

2470
02:19:14,879 --> 02:19:17,680
Speaker 1: I know. That's all I need to know. And again

2471
02:19:17,760 --> 02:19:22,120
Speaker 1: it's a reflection of kind of like the way names

2472
02:19:22,120 --> 02:19:24,800
Speaker 1: are doled out in our real world over the course

2473
02:19:24,800 --> 02:19:25,279
Speaker 1: of history.

2474
02:19:25,320 --> 02:19:28,879
Speaker 5: This just happens, and Duran asks, I'm so glad that

2475
02:19:29,320 --> 02:19:31,160
Speaker 5: you asked this, because I think this is actually one

2476
02:19:31,160 --> 02:19:33,600
Speaker 5: of the nicest moments in the show. I'm very interested

2477
02:19:33,640 --> 02:19:37,119
Speaker 5: to Jason's thoughts on it. Now that Visara's has passed,

2478
02:19:37,600 --> 02:19:40,600
Speaker 5: what is the legacy of his reign in the book

2479
02:19:43,480 --> 02:19:44,039
Speaker 5: the books.

2480
02:19:44,160 --> 02:19:46,279
Speaker 1: If we were to take the books as the history

2481
02:19:46,959 --> 02:19:54,199
Speaker 1: as written by the people who've viewed the source material

2482
02:19:54,400 --> 02:19:57,720
Speaker 1: and had the stories come down to them in later decades,

2483
02:19:57,800 --> 02:20:00,400
Speaker 1: then what is passed down to history is that Sarah's

2484
02:20:00,520 --> 02:20:04,120
Speaker 1: was essentially a weak king, and it's a much more

2485
02:20:04,440 --> 02:20:06,000
Speaker 1: you know, if we take the books to be truly

2486
02:20:06,040 --> 02:20:11,240
Speaker 1: that historic text, then Visara's is viewed much less generously

2487
02:20:11,400 --> 02:20:13,160
Speaker 1: than he is in the show. And the show again, like,

2488
02:20:13,200 --> 02:20:14,680
Speaker 1: as we've said, he's a nice guy.

2489
02:20:14,800 --> 02:20:20,160
Speaker 5: He he seeks can be the name.

2490
02:20:20,760 --> 02:20:23,680
Speaker 1: He loved his family. He was more or less honorable.

2491
02:20:23,800 --> 02:20:26,360
Speaker 1: He made some bad choices, and he wasn't as strong

2492
02:20:26,360 --> 02:20:27,959
Speaker 1: as he could have been at certain times, but he's

2493
02:20:28,000 --> 02:20:31,920
Speaker 1: more or less a good man, and honestly, like if

2494
02:20:31,959 --> 02:20:37,360
Speaker 1: you would have you know, reality traveled him to like

2495
02:20:37,800 --> 02:20:41,199
Speaker 1: a democracy in the twentieth century and made him a politician.

2496
02:20:41,240 --> 02:20:43,680
Speaker 1: He do quite well, yeah, you know, as a leader.

2497
02:20:44,120 --> 02:20:48,120
Speaker 1: But in this world where like ruthlessness and strength are

2498
02:20:48,200 --> 02:20:51,000
Speaker 1: kind of prized and and any other kind of form

2499
02:20:51,080 --> 02:20:56,200
Speaker 1: of leadership is looked at side eyed, you know, I

2500
02:20:56,240 --> 02:20:59,440
Speaker 1: think that unfortunately, the thing that will come down through

2501
02:20:59,560 --> 02:21:03,440
Speaker 1: history is that Viceus was a weak king who couldn't

2502
02:21:03,720 --> 02:21:07,520
Speaker 1: take a strong stand between the Greens and the Blacks

2503
02:21:07,560 --> 02:21:11,279
Speaker 1: when he could have done so. And I don't necessarily

2504
02:21:11,280 --> 02:21:13,600
Speaker 1: disagree with that, but it's reductive. It doesn't get at

2505
02:21:13,640 --> 02:21:15,920
Speaker 1: all of him. But basically that he was weak.

2506
02:21:16,200 --> 02:21:18,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, especially as his

2507
02:21:18,879 --> 02:21:22,440
Speaker 5: chosen air was not the air that ended up going

2508
02:21:22,480 --> 02:21:25,120
Speaker 5: after him. That says that in itself defines a lot

2509
02:21:25,160 --> 02:21:30,920
Speaker 5: of his kind of rain. Okay, eight liv asks, where

2510
02:21:30,920 --> 02:21:33,840
Speaker 5: did the White Worm hide? Agon? Was this just an

2511
02:21:33,920 --> 02:21:37,920
Speaker 5: everyday average sept for before Baylor's Scept was built.

2512
02:21:38,600 --> 02:21:41,720
Speaker 1: This is called the Great Sept and it's actually built

2513
02:21:41,720 --> 02:21:45,560
Speaker 1: on the same hill that will eventually be home to

2514
02:21:45,680 --> 02:21:50,000
Speaker 1: the Great Scept of Baylor. But and it was, you know,

2515
02:21:50,080 --> 02:21:53,440
Speaker 1: obviously the kind of holy meeting place before the Great

2516
02:21:53,440 --> 02:21:58,560
Speaker 1: Scept of Baylor. But it's very very lightly mentioned in

2517
02:21:58,600 --> 02:22:01,920
Speaker 1: the books. There's barely any any mentions mention of it

2518
02:22:01,959 --> 02:22:06,320
Speaker 1: in terms of like average everyday steps. Many castles, including

2519
02:22:06,320 --> 02:22:08,760
Speaker 1: the Red Keeper' gonna have their own septs and stuff

2520
02:22:08,800 --> 02:22:12,039
Speaker 1: where often the royal family would go about like they're

2521
02:22:12,080 --> 02:22:15,200
Speaker 1: kind of like daily everyday prayers and things like that.

2522
02:22:16,040 --> 02:22:20,040
Speaker 1: Folks don't forget to catch up now before this Sunday's

2523
02:22:20,080 --> 02:22:23,440
Speaker 1: finale of the new HBO series House of the Dragon

2524
02:22:24,200 --> 02:22:27,640
Speaker 1: this Sunday on HBO Max, and don't forget last. Ask

2525
02:22:27,720 --> 02:22:29,520
Speaker 1: the Master is going to be next week. Send your

2526
02:22:29,600 --> 02:22:35,000
Speaker 1: questions to Ask Theemaster at gmail dot com. Big thank

2527
02:22:35,040 --> 02:22:37,800
Speaker 1: you to Jennifer Hutchison and of course to Rosie Night

2528
02:22:37,920 --> 02:22:40,680
Speaker 1: for CosIng this podcast. Rosie, what do you have to plug?

2529
02:22:41,480 --> 02:22:45,560
Speaker 5: You can find me Rosie Marks on Instagram and let

2530
02:22:45,600 --> 02:22:48,880
Speaker 5: the box. I have a ton of pieces coming out.

2531
02:22:49,200 --> 02:22:52,959
Speaker 5: You can read my Lord of the Rings finale recap,

2532
02:22:53,000 --> 02:22:55,200
Speaker 5: which was a IGN which I had a lot of

2533
02:22:55,200 --> 02:22:58,160
Speaker 5: fun with. I have a ton of cool stuff coming

2534
02:22:58,200 --> 02:23:02,000
Speaker 5: out about superheroes and all that rad things that I

2535
02:23:02,080 --> 02:23:06,080
Speaker 5: usually write about obviously here every week. And I will

2536
02:23:06,080 --> 02:23:09,040
Speaker 5: have cool comic book news coming soon, though I don't

2537
02:23:09,040 --> 02:23:11,039
Speaker 5: know how soon, so just keep an air out for that.

2538
02:23:13,520 --> 02:23:15,840
Speaker 1: Catch the next episode of X ray Vision on October

2539
02:23:15,840 --> 02:23:18,760
Speaker 1: twenty eighth, and of course, subscribe to the show on YouTube,

2540
02:23:18,800 --> 02:23:21,680
Speaker 1: follow at XRV pod on Twitter and check out the

2541
02:23:21,720 --> 02:23:23,920
Speaker 1: discord to meet and hang out with lots of other

2542
02:23:24,240 --> 02:23:26,720
Speaker 1: X ray Vision fans and Rosie and I we love

2543
02:23:26,760 --> 02:23:30,440
Speaker 1: to hear from you join the conversation there. Don't forget

2544
02:23:30,440 --> 02:23:32,720
Speaker 1: to send your House of the Dragon queries too. Ask

2545
02:23:32,800 --> 02:23:34,520
Speaker 1: Themaster at gmail dot com.

2546
02:23:34,560 --> 02:23:36,879
Speaker 2: And we love, love love, we love them. We love

2547
02:23:36,879 --> 02:23:37,920
Speaker 2: your five star reviews.

2548
02:23:38,040 --> 02:23:42,320
Speaker 1: Here's one from Tim love this show so much, Rosie

2549
02:23:42,320 --> 02:23:43,560
Speaker 1: and Jason joy is infectious.

2550
02:23:43,560 --> 02:23:44,360
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

2551
02:23:44,840 --> 02:23:47,039
Speaker 1: I not only understand the shows they recap so much

2552
02:23:47,080 --> 02:23:49,480
Speaker 1: better after listening to their pod, but hearing their joy

2553
02:23:49,520 --> 02:23:51,279
Speaker 1: over little Easter Eggs lifts.

2554
02:23:51,000 --> 02:23:51,640
Speaker 2: My spirits up.

2555
02:23:52,760 --> 02:23:54,959
Speaker 3: We love, we love to hear that.

2556
02:23:57,640 --> 02:23:59,199
Speaker 2: X ray Vision is a Crooked Media production.

2557
02:23:59,240 --> 02:24:01,039
Speaker 1: The show is produced by Chris Lord and Salt rube In.

2558
02:24:01,040 --> 02:24:03,840
Speaker 1: The show is executive produced by myself and Sandy's Rhard

2559
02:24:03,840 --> 02:24:08,000
Speaker 1: Are Editing and sound designers by Vascillis Photopoulos, Dilon Villanueva

2560
02:24:08,000 --> 02:24:10,840
Speaker 1: and Matt de Group provide video production support. Alex Reroller

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02:24:10,920 --> 02:24:14,120
Speaker 1: for Handle Social Media. Thank you, Brian Vasquez for the music.

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02:24:14,480 --> 02:24:15,480
Speaker 4: See you next time.

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02:24:15,840 --> 02:24:23,480
Speaker 3: Bye. Hey, Mike, this is his notb for Marine. I'm

2564
02:24:23,520 --> 02:24:25,880
Speaker 3: a little sad today, Mike, because I just want to

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02:24:25,920 --> 02:24:28,640
Speaker 3: pay tribute to somebody I've always respected. You know, I

2566
02:24:28,680 --> 02:24:32,000
Speaker 3: grew up in Marine. That's over in SOS and uh,

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02:24:32,240 --> 02:24:34,160
Speaker 3: you know we didn't have a lot of access to

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02:24:34,200 --> 02:24:36,120
Speaker 3: the stuff that you guys have in West Ros, like

2569
02:24:36,160 --> 02:24:38,440
Speaker 3: West Ros Radio, you know, all that kind of stuff.

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02:24:38,440 --> 02:24:41,120
Speaker 3: We had to get it secondhand. But one of the

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02:24:41,120 --> 02:24:43,360
Speaker 3: things that really got me through as a young person

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02:24:43,480 --> 02:24:46,800
Speaker 3: is the books of Lymon Beesberry, Sir Lymon Beesberry, they

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02:24:46,800 --> 02:24:49,240
Speaker 3: call him the bees you know, books like Rich King,

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02:24:49,320 --> 02:24:51,880
Speaker 3: Poor King, and bees G's a Guide to Wealth and

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02:24:51,959 --> 02:24:54,879
Speaker 3: West Ros. Uh, they really got me through a lot

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02:24:54,920 --> 02:24:57,600
Speaker 3: of hard times, Mike. Lymon Beesberry is a great guy,

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02:24:57,760 --> 02:25:00,600
Speaker 3: a lot of wisdom in that head of his, and

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02:25:00,640 --> 02:25:03,160
Speaker 3: it was just a real shame to see it smashed

2579
02:25:03,240 --> 02:25:06,240
Speaker 3: on the on the small council table like that, in

2580
02:25:06,280 --> 02:25:08,720
Speaker 3: such a disrespectful way. I didn't think that was right.

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02:25:08,879 --> 02:25:11,160
Speaker 3: I thought, you know, somebody should do something about it.

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02:25:11,160 --> 02:25:14,080
Speaker 3: But that's neither here nor there, Mike, So, I just

2583
02:25:14,080 --> 02:25:16,560
Speaker 3: wanted to pull one out for a Limon Beesberry a

2584
02:25:16,600 --> 02:25:20,360
Speaker 3: great guy, a great thinker, a really good author, and uh,

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02:25:20,520 --> 02:25:22,720
Speaker 3: you know, one of my one of my childhood heroes.

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02:25:22,760 --> 02:25:22,920
Speaker 2: Mike.

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02:25:23,040 --> 02:25:25,200
Speaker 3: So, I'll take my answer off the air. Thank you.