Speaker 1: Be sure to catch live editions of The Ben Maller
Speaker 1: Show weekdays at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific. Be
Speaker 1: sure to catch live editions of The Ben Maller Show
Speaker 1: weekdays at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific on Fox
Speaker 1: Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio appo. If you
Speaker 1: thought more hours a day, minutes a week was enough,
Speaker 1: think again. He's the last remnants of the old Republic,
Speaker 1: a sole fashion of fairness. He treats crackheads in the
Speaker 1: ghetto cutter the same as the rich pill poppers in
Speaker 1: the penthouse, to clearinghouse of hot takes, break free for
Speaker 1: something special. The Fifth Hour with Ben Maller starts right
Speaker 1: now in the ale everywhere, back at it again. Another
Speaker 1: weekend is upon us. This a spinoff of The Ben
Speaker 1: Maller Show heard overnights as you know on Fox Sports Radio,
Speaker 1: and we do this every Friday, Saturday and Sunday. This
Speaker 1: is the Friday Podcast And doesn't matter whether you're in
Speaker 1: the country club or the trailer park, we are here
Speaker 1: for you. On the fifth Hour, David Gascon is with us.
Speaker 1: Yes for the four O five ras shown that a
Speaker 1: cool up I got some raving news. A couple of
Speaker 1: days ago before Opening Day in Major League Baseball, that
Speaker 1: we have eclipsed the highest downloaded numbers ever in the
Speaker 1: history of The Fifth Hour with Ben Maller. And also
Speaker 1: the last two or three episodes were higher than any
Speaker 1: show you have broadcasted on live radio over the last
Speaker 1: year and a half. How about that? How about them apples?
Speaker 1: We actually have a live audience. Yeah, but they're not
Speaker 1: really alive. They're live, but they're not alive attack. I
Speaker 1: mean when they have syringes in their arms or when
Speaker 1: they're intoxicated from alcohol. It doesn't really count that we're here. Again,
Speaker 1: you're not proving you and I are an elitist loo user.
Speaker 1: This could be like this is like Gretzky Curry Magic,
Speaker 1: Kareem hers Scheizer's sosha, like this is a good combination.
Speaker 1: No it's not, but I listen, I I I'm willing
Speaker 1: to hang out with the Hillbillies and the Hoi POLLOI
Speaker 1: and all that. And you can hang out and have
Speaker 1: cocktails at the at the bar with all the elites. Uh,
Speaker 1: that's fine. I am a proud Neanderthal. Anyway, Well, this
Speaker 1: is not about us. We will delve into the tremendously
Speaker 1: exciting news about the downloads, which we're probably jinks will
Speaker 1: go back to zero now, but we we we will
Speaker 1: welcome in right now. Guy who I've been an admirer.
Speaker 1: I've read his his work for many many years. He's
Speaker 1: bounced all over the place. His name is Michael McCarthy.
Speaker 1: He's a sports business guy. He's a senior writer at
Speaker 1: Front Office Sports dot com. You should check it out.
Speaker 1: It's not one of the big corporate run websites. It's
Speaker 1: a start up Front Office sports dot com. If you're
Speaker 1: into the business of sports. Uh. They do a lot
Speaker 1: of good stuff at that website. But Michael McCarthy has
Speaker 1: been around. He's worked at the The New York Times,
Speaker 1: He's had by lines at the New York Times, Sports
Speaker 1: Illustrated us A Today. He's done work for CNBC, The
Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal, Sports Illustrated. He has been all over
Speaker 1: the map. He's even done some teaching. Uh. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure that will be brought up here at some point.
Speaker 1: But let's get into the business of sport. An interesting
Speaker 1: conversation on tap here. As sports and television and media
Speaker 1: are embedded together, we've certainly learned that more and more
Speaker 1: over the last year with it not mattering that fans
Speaker 1: are actually at the games are not and the television
Speaker 1: money continue to come in. But welcome in, Michael, thank
Speaker 1: you for spending some time with us. So the NFL
Speaker 1: is the king. It keeps the lights on in these parts,
Speaker 1: we like to say. So let's start with the n
Speaker 1: f L. And you wrote that. Roger wrote recently, Roger
Speaker 1: Udell wants the NFL to generate twenty seven billion dollars
Speaker 1: in annual revenue. By It's an amazing number, twenty seven
Speaker 1: billion dollars. Obviously, so Michael explained to me how that's
Speaker 1: actually gonna work. Okay, yeah, Well, I mean the big
Speaker 1: uh money maker for the NFL is obviously TV rights.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at their recent TV deals,
Speaker 1: they're getting something like, you know, four hundred and fifteen billion, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, just right off the bat. And they have
Speaker 1: the ability to pull out of the deal after seven
Speaker 1: years of gambling takes off and go back to the
Speaker 1: table too. I think his international expansion. I fully believe
Speaker 1: there will be a team in London, in Mexico City, uh,
Speaker 1: in an international market for the next five years. You
Speaker 1: better believe the NFL looks obviously at how well the
Speaker 1: NBA and will BE have done overseas, and they want
Speaker 1: some of that for themselves. So do you think they'll
Speaker 1: be expansion teams, They're gonna go to thirty four teams,
Speaker 1: or they're just going to relocate a couple of teams
Speaker 1: that are currently in American cities. It's a great question.
Speaker 1: It's tb D. I think it's fifty fifty. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I could see a team like Jacksonville, which
Speaker 1: already has a huge fan base in London. Uh, and
Speaker 1: I think that was on purpose, uh, you know, being
Speaker 1: transferred over there. I could also see them expanding. What
Speaker 1: do I think about the NFL that I've always liked
Speaker 1: is they do not sit on their laurels. I mean
Speaker 1: like going to seventeen games. I mean, can you imagine
Speaker 1: that in baseball below? Oh my god, what will the
Speaker 1: throw of the record books? Doesn't care like seventeen games? Yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: but just you know, throughout the old record book, I
Speaker 1: thought of no One. Yeah, and Michael I. I am
Speaker 1: casual friends with Fred Dryer and he told me when
Speaker 1: he played in the NFL back in the seventies and
Speaker 1: the ease that the owners then wanted an eighteen game schedule.
Speaker 1: They they were very passionate about that. And that's over
Speaker 1: forty years ago when that was going on. So isn't
Speaker 1: this just a temporary stop to eighteen games? Like that,
Speaker 1: we're at seventeen for X number of years, But the
Speaker 1: goal is to get to eighteen, correct. I think I
Speaker 1: totally agree with you. I think the goal is to
Speaker 1: get to eighteen. And I think you know, who knows
Speaker 1: what the goal will be ten years from now. I mean,
Speaker 1: there was one famous NFL g M who said, you know,
Speaker 1: where the ranchers, you're the cattle. Uh. And you know
Speaker 1: they may say whatever they want publicly, but you know,
Speaker 1: two billionaires, they're still the ranchers and the players are
Speaker 1: still the cattle. Yeah and yeah, I mean, I'll go
Speaker 1: back to what you said. With the possible expansion to
Speaker 1: the NFL. It's it's an odd deal because we've established
Speaker 1: like there's a certain number, there's this Goldilocks zone of
Speaker 1: teams that you can only have a finite amount of
Speaker 1: teams in any of these sports leagues. The NFL's got
Speaker 1: thirty two, Baseball has got thirty. Uh, it's like right
Speaker 1: around that number. But if we were to come back,
Speaker 1: you know, two hundred years from now and say sports
Speaker 1: is still around in society, is the same relatively, how
Speaker 1: many teams do you think there would be? I mean
Speaker 1: they've been in that area between twenty thirty two, right
Speaker 1: around there for a while. Would we see forty five
Speaker 1: fifty teams? I mean, how high giving him go before
Speaker 1: it becomes problematic? I think I think you could easily go, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, forty teams. Uh. You know, we're talking about
Speaker 1: a country that's now over three million people, you know,
Speaker 1: a country which is you know, changing demographically, changing racially.
Speaker 1: You know, millions upon millions of American citizens are on
Speaker 1: the move, creating new suburbs of new mega lot polus
Speaker 1: is all over the place. Uh So I mean you
Speaker 1: fold the population. Uh. You know, remember about end of
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago doing a story for the USA Today,
Speaker 1: they sent me out to Las Vegas to do a
Speaker 1: what if story? Like what if sports ever gave up
Speaker 1: their opposition into gambling? Could sports ever come to Las Vegas?
Speaker 1: And it's like that, I think about it, and that
Speaker 1: story is a joke, of course, it has you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? And you know, you go to the
Speaker 1: NFL team the NFL stay to you with the NHL
Speaker 1: and everything else. So yeah, I mean I think the
Speaker 1: sky the women. Yeah, and uh, I didn't want to
Speaker 1: talk to you. I know you've written some about Al
Speaker 1: Michaels and the NBC and just the Drew Brees move
Speaker 1: and how that all relates. But you know everything that
Speaker 1: I've been hearing and reading from guys like yourself there,
Speaker 1: it certainly sounds like NBC is planning to, shall I say,
Speaker 1: force Al Michaels out after the upcoming season. And if
Speaker 1: that is accurate, let's start with that. Is that, if
Speaker 1: that's accurate, is this Al's decision or is he gonna
Speaker 1: go work somewhere else? Wison called NFL games. Uh hey,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's accurate. Al's contract goes through the
Speaker 1: two thousand and twenty two Super Bowl in Los Angeles. Um,
Speaker 1: and it could uh all be very amicable. You know,
Speaker 1: Al is seventy six, seventy seventies old. You might just
Speaker 1: decide like Dick Stockin did this week, to say, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna hang up my cleats and hang up my microphone. However,
Speaker 1: I think the idea of them forcing Al Michael's out
Speaker 1: is a bit overblown. I think, you know, it would
Speaker 1: have to be a decision that Al goes along with,
Speaker 1: or Al could just pick up his chips and move
Speaker 1: to another network. I mean, you've got ESPN and ABC
Speaker 1: sitting there in the Super Bowl rotation. Al would look
Speaker 1: pretty good in one of those yellow canary yellow ABC
Speaker 1: blazers when they do the Super Bowl. NBC would have
Speaker 1: to make that decision to be a throwback, absolutely, But
Speaker 1: they have brought in Drew Breese and the You don't
Speaker 1: bring in a guy like that unless you think that
Speaker 1: he's going to be with Obviously he's the analyst. So
Speaker 1: does that mean Chris Collinsworth is got one foot out
Speaker 1: the door? Yeah? Yeah, Really, we're talking about two different things.
Speaker 1: I mean, Mike Tariko is obviously the heir apparent to
Speaker 1: Al Michaels, just like he was the heir apparent to
Speaker 1: Bob Costas. You know, whether that happens after the next
Speaker 1: Super Bowl or not, But Mike Tarrico will eventually call
Speaker 1: UH Sunday Night Football. The Drew Brees question, I think
Speaker 1: it's more immediate about Chris Collinsworth because you know Drew
Speaker 1: Brees is going to come in, as you know, play
Speaker 1: by a game analyst on Notre Dame and a studio analyst,
Speaker 1: and he could replace Chris Collinsworth. So what we could
Speaker 1: be looking at within a couple of years is an
Speaker 1: al Michael's Chris Collinsworth booth go into a Mike Tarriko. Uh. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The question about Breezes. Everybody assumes he's gonna be great, right,
Speaker 1: Tony Romo was great? Great? Now it doesn't work that way.
Speaker 1: There's tons of ex athletes and ex coaches who flopped
Speaker 1: on TV. I give you Emmett Smith, and you know,
Speaker 1: Joe Montana and a bunch of others. So there's no
Speaker 1: guarantee that Drew Brees is gonna be great. And if
Speaker 1: he isn't great, don't just keep Collinsworth. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: always bring this up on my My Overnight show, Michael,
Speaker 1: the quote from Howard Cosell about the jock ocracy of
Speaker 1: sports television, And if Howard was still around today, oh
Speaker 1: my god, his head would explode from all that. It's
Speaker 1: only gotten more pronounced over the years with guys walking
Speaker 1: off the field into TV jypt. But Breeze already had
Speaker 1: this lined up a couple of years ago with the
Speaker 1: Saints he seems. Now, if you were betting man, Michael,
Speaker 1: you cover this stuff and you've done this for a
Speaker 1: long time to do a great job. But if you
Speaker 1: were a betting man, would you bet that Breeze is
Speaker 1: good or bad? I think he's gonna be kind of
Speaker 1: mediocre because he comes across to me is just too polite.
Speaker 1: I think you've got to have a little edge to
Speaker 1: you to be good at that. Yeah, I mean just
Speaker 1: an interviews and being on the press court with him,
Speaker 1: he seems kind of earnest and hard working, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of like a you know, a boy scout. He's
Speaker 1: gonna go in there and give it are But a
Speaker 1: lot of times that doesn't work on TV. Jason Witten
Speaker 1: tried that on Moday Night Football. You know, he worked
Speaker 1: as hard as anybody, but he was terrible, and you
Speaker 1: know he ran back to the NFL. Uh tell you
Speaker 1: the truth. I mean, you want to pick a wild
Speaker 1: card who could be great on TV? I'm here and
Speaker 1: it's Philip Rivers. Uh. You know, if he wants to
Speaker 1: do TV, people think he could be the next Dandy
Speaker 1: Don He's got that kind of southern charm and he
Speaker 1: loves to talk and he loves the bullshit and he
Speaker 1: loves to, you know, talk smack, so he could really
Speaker 1: do it. But I mean, if I was a betting man,
Speaker 1: and I'm not, I you know, would put Breathe down
Speaker 1: as being average with potential for good. Michael, speaking of BS,
Speaker 1: who I mean outside the National Football who do you
Speaker 1: think made out the best with this new your rights
Speaker 1: deal with the National Football League? Is it ABC? ESPN?
Speaker 1: Is it Amazon? Like? Where do you feel? Because for
Speaker 1: as much as we have gone towards the digital realm,
Speaker 1: there's still a lot of people that don't access the
Speaker 1: Internet in terms of watching content on there, and I
Speaker 1: think the Thursday Night package it's been challenging at least
Speaker 1: for a lot of people to find the game itself
Speaker 1: and then to obviously enjoy it from either an iPad
Speaker 1: or a Mac or even a PC. Like, well, who
Speaker 1: do you feel made out the best in terms of
Speaker 1: network coverage? And then the world is the company? The
Speaker 1: world is the company? ABC and ESPN got a Super Bowl,
Speaker 1: two Super Bowls ESPN since its founding in nineteen seventy nine,
Speaker 1: and a little trailer in uh, you know, an empty
Speaker 1: field somewhere in Bristol, Connecticut has dreamed of getting a
Speaker 1: Super Bowl. This legitimizes in a way that they've never
Speaker 1: been legitimized before. Number two, Monday and Night Football gets
Speaker 1: flexible scheduling. How llelujah, we don't have to sit through
Speaker 1: these dog games in December with two losing teams. And
Speaker 1: I mean that will do huge boos for ESPN's ratings
Speaker 1: because right up until now, the only network that has
Speaker 1: had flexible scheduling is is NBC for Something and football.
Speaker 1: So I think, hands down the winner of this deal
Speaker 1: was the Walt Disney Company. And the bigger story here
Speaker 1: is the growing alliance between the NFL and Disney. I mean,
Speaker 1: these two corporations are becoming joined at the hip. You know,
Speaker 1: they're playing at each other like two teenagers in heat.
Speaker 1: So you know, right now, Disney, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: is the golden child for the NFL and by stories
Speaker 1: and vice versa. Yeah, we haven't seen since the glory
Speaker 1: days of Gary Thorne back then with the National Hockey League.
Speaker 1: But what gives you the sense that this will work
Speaker 1: the second time around with the NHL and ESPN. I
Speaker 1: think ESPN, for one thing, really wants it. You know,
Speaker 1: these networks have all come around to a signal idea,
Speaker 1: which is live game rights are everything. You know, we
Speaker 1: in the media are certainly guilty of this, and I'm
Speaker 1: certainly guilty of They're talking so much about studio program
Speaker 1: first take and you know, skip ballas and all this,
Speaker 1: but the network suits, the people who run this business
Speaker 1: have come to conclusion that it's all about live game rights.
Speaker 1: And you have a sport that with which is one
Speaker 1: of the biggest sports in the world. You have a young,
Speaker 1: tech savvy UHAD base, and you have a fan base
Speaker 1: in the NHL that is rabbit. Yeah, they feel with
Speaker 1: justification that they don't get as much attention as the
Speaker 1: other sports. And when somebody like ESPN we'll start to
Speaker 1: broadcast their games again and talk about it, it will
Speaker 1: be a huge boost for the sport. Having said that,
Speaker 1: I think we should pour one out for NBC. I
Speaker 1: think NBC did a fantastic job of the last ten years.
Speaker 1: Innovations like the Winter Classic outdoor Hockey game will go
Speaker 1: down in history. They did a wonderful job. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: scene in late Todd who was fantastic on that note too,
Speaker 1: with live programming, Because Ben and I talked about this
Speaker 1: at good length do you think in a way this
Speaker 1: also saves the networks because of the program the in
Speaker 1: studio programs. You know, they've they've at times gone a
Speaker 1: little too controversial or gone political, and that disenfranchises people
Speaker 1: from watching their shows. So do you think in a
Speaker 1: way that actually saves the networks from having to worry
Speaker 1: about any of that other junk that doesn't have to
Speaker 1: do with sports specific related material. I believe it too,
Speaker 1: And I believe that's a that's a really interesting and
Speaker 1: in smart insight. I think, you know, the NFL giving
Speaker 1: eleven year deals to traditional linear legacy networks will keep
Speaker 1: them in business for the next twenty years where they
Speaker 1: might have gone out of business. I mean, somebody used
Speaker 1: this comparison. I wish I could remember who, but it
Speaker 1: was a great one, which is, uh, sports has become
Speaker 1: of a jinga game for TV networks. If you remove
Speaker 1: that block, they would crumble into dust. And you know,
Speaker 1: through this deal with the NFL, these networks will be
Speaker 1: in business, you know, at least for the next eleven years.
Speaker 1: And I think that's great. With with the way that
Speaker 1: salaries have been thrown out there. I saw this on
Speaker 1: on Thursday. You know, George Kittle. His his deal for
Speaker 1: this season is guaranteed. He's making a salary just a
Speaker 1: hair over eleven million dollars. But it's hard for me
Speaker 1: to imagine or to fathom the fact that he's making
Speaker 1: eleven million dollars a year. That's a little bit more
Speaker 1: than Jim Nats and seven million dollars less or eight
Speaker 1: million dollars less than than Tony Romo. Will there ever
Speaker 1: be a curve to what these broadcasters are making at
Speaker 1: the bigger stages. I don't think so, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: And it's a it's a great question because there was
Speaker 1: a time when John Madden made more than any player
Speaker 1: in the NFL. Think about that. John Madden was so
Speaker 1: big as a broadcasters he made more money any single
Speaker 1: NFL player, Joe Montana or whatever. But as far as
Speaker 1: the Tony Romo thing, I'm already seen a big backlash
Speaker 1: against that, uh, you know, naturally after Tony Romo got
Speaker 1: that contract, and congratulations Tony Romo because it's great, but
Speaker 1: you know, everybody who's an A list talent said I
Speaker 1: want Tony ronoand money. Uh. And you know, I mean
Speaker 1: networks are already fighting back hard. They're saying, you know, Look,
Speaker 1: this guy's a unicorn. You know, he had the right timing.
Speaker 1: All this happened before the pandemic. He had the Super
Speaker 1: Bowl coming up. So I don't think we'll ever see that.
Speaker 1: I mean, the way these revenues keep exploding for the
Speaker 1: NBA and the NFL, and the players make anywhere between
Speaker 1: forty that I don't think you'll ever see announcers equaling
Speaker 1: the pay of broadcasts, I mean equaling the pay of players. Well, Michael,
Speaker 1: as far as it's just a general censor of these
Speaker 1: networks and you're talking about keeping them in business. I
Speaker 1: had a buddy that worked at ABC back when they
Speaker 1: had money Night Football originally back and near the end
Speaker 1: of the run, and they were losing money. It was
Speaker 1: a loss leader. I can't imagine they're making money now
Speaker 1: with the money that's being paid for these rights. Is
Speaker 1: that still the case? And how much do you think
Speaker 1: they're actually losing on these TV deals. I don't think
Speaker 1: it's the case that they're all losing money like the
Speaker 1: way that you SA Remember I covered that era too,
Speaker 1: and that's a great point. You know, one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why CBS, you know, got out of the NFL business.
Speaker 1: They were losing money. You remember, I think the networks
Speaker 1: have come to this conclusion they're gonna lose a hell
Speaker 1: of a lot more without the NFL than they would
Speaker 1: with the NFL. And if you've got the playoffs, and
Speaker 1: you've got the conference championships, and you've got the Super Bowl,
Speaker 1: which prints money, you could even make money. Uh. But
Speaker 1: it's still a dynamic that's at work. I mean, one
Speaker 1: of the reasons why the Linear Network shunned Thurst Football
Speaker 1: it was it was just hard to make money on it.
Speaker 1: You to share it with NFL network, you gotta share
Speaker 1: it with the local broadcasters, you've got share it with Amazon.
Speaker 1: And you know, they just said we're out. But I
Speaker 1: think you know what I mean that there still is
Speaker 1: a huge opportunity to make money with the NFL. If
Speaker 1: there wasn't, they wouldn't be in business with them. Be
Speaker 1: sure to catch live editions of The Ben Maller Show
Speaker 1: weekdays at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific. Be sure
Speaker 1: to catch live editions of The Ben Maller Show weekdays
Speaker 1: at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific on Fox Sports
Speaker 1: Radio and the I Heart Radio app. How concerning is
Speaker 1: it though, with people moving to streaming now getting ray
Speaker 1: away from the satellite cable, more and more people cutting
Speaker 1: the cord and you can watch everything online and streaming
Speaker 1: and everyone, Michael, as you know, should pay the rights
Speaker 1: fees for the packages. But a lot of people are
Speaker 1: on the pirate ship, and there are ways you can
Speaker 1: watch many of these games without actually having to pay
Speaker 1: for them. So how much danger do you think that
Speaker 1: is to the business model of the NFL and just
Speaker 1: sports in general, which is so depending on people paying
Speaker 1: extra to watch the games. I think it's a huge threat.
Speaker 1: I teach it Rutgers and sports sports journalism there for
Speaker 1: five years, and when I talked to these eighteen ninety one,
Speaker 1: the woral of students they just don't watch TV anymore.
Speaker 1: They watch everything on demand, when and how they wanted.
Speaker 1: So it's a huge threat of a piracy. These new
Speaker 1: consumers who were tech savvy getting getting the product without
Speaker 1: paying for it, or two just dropping out of the
Speaker 1: habit of live sports. Um, you know, they didn't grow
Speaker 1: up like we grew up, where it's like, oh, the
Speaker 1: Yankee game is on at seven and I'm gonna spend
Speaker 1: three hours watching this. They don't think like that. They
Speaker 1: think I'll watch it on my phone, or I'll just
Speaker 1: watch the highlights, or I'll just go to house the
Speaker 1: highlights and I'll see the clips and the in That
Speaker 1: is a huge problem, and I think that's why you're
Speaker 1: seeing the network and the NFL working so hard to
Speaker 1: try to attract young reviewers with everything from that, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: that crazy Nickelodeon game with the slime to Mega cast
Speaker 1: everything else. Michael, Back in the nineties, I used to
Speaker 1: love the NFL and NBC and the NBA on NBC.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was because of the broadcasters,
Speaker 1: because the music, because t is all of it right, Um, Like,
Speaker 1: what would you put up there as pound for pound
Speaker 1: the best product right now on television? And I mean
Speaker 1: everything Like the UFC two sixty last week was was great.
Speaker 1: Obviously they had Fight Island. Uh, the Olympic coverage with NBC, NFL, NBA.
Speaker 1: Like where do you fit in all of this? Like
Speaker 1: who do you think has the best product pound for
Speaker 1: pound for a particular sport? Oh? And that's a great question,
Speaker 1: because yeah, I mean like you, I mean, I love
Speaker 1: Round Bull Rock and NBC and that those great NBA games.
Speaker 1: I mean, if I had to pick a league that
Speaker 1: you know, it has the best product, best television product.
Speaker 1: It's handed down the NFL. Um you know, the Fox
Speaker 1: and CBS games on Sunday afternoon are the single most
Speaker 1: watched games of the week and every single week. And
Speaker 1: NBC Saturday Night Football is the single most watched program
Speaker 1: in prime time for ten years in a row. I
Speaker 1: mean the old Rectord was five years and that was
Speaker 1: a gun, smoke and all in the family. Just ten
Speaker 1: years in a row. It bores away everything Drava scripted comedies,
Speaker 1: reality football football number one. I mean, the football product
Speaker 1: is so so good that it's going to be a
Speaker 1: challenge for them to get viewers back in the stadium
Speaker 1: when you've got such a great television product, I say,
Speaker 1: you know, the NBA Olympic NBC's Olympic coverage is just
Speaker 1: outstanding and beautiful and it moves you, uh in such
Speaker 1: a way that's you know, it's incredible. And then you
Speaker 1: have the ESPN which does just, you know, just to
Speaker 1: such a great job on college sports, and the NFL
Speaker 1: and the NBA and MLB. I mean, I can go
Speaker 1: on and on, but you know they're the king of
Speaker 1: luck coverage. Yeah, Michael you know, during the pandemic when
Speaker 1: there were no sports for a hundred and thirty four days.
Speaker 1: Last year, I fell into the rabbit hole on YouTube
Speaker 1: of watching random old games. So I realized that this
Speaker 1: is merely for me nostalgia. But there are so many
Speaker 1: channels hidden on YouTube that just broadcast random Monday night
Speaker 1: baseball games with Keith Jackson and Cosell back in that
Speaker 1: year and whatnot. It is, it is, it is wild.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a gold mine. You see how sports
Speaker 1: television has changed. Uh? And are those allowed though? I
Speaker 1: mean it seems like those are still. How long does
Speaker 1: the trademark last? How long does the copyright last? It's
Speaker 1: I love it. I hope it doesn't go away. But
Speaker 1: I I'm fascinated that they can put a three hour
Speaker 1: random you know, Yankee Tiger game from on YouTube and
Speaker 1: not get in trouble. For I know, it's like bringing
Speaker 1: back ESPN Classic, remember that network. Yes, yes, go back
Speaker 1: and watching teams and the announcers. Uh, you grow up,
Speaker 1: you grow up with I mean with you. I love
Speaker 1: you know, going back into the time capsule and you
Speaker 1: know feeling you know, twelve beforeteen again, you know, watching
Speaker 1: the Yankees in the World Series or whatever it was.
Speaker 1: But I think there's those games also have a shelf life.
Speaker 1: I mean I remember doing this story exactly. I don't
Speaker 1: know it was a year ago, but just about a
Speaker 1: year ago, you know, during the pandemic. It every single
Speaker 1: network I talked to, from ESPN to the regionals were
Speaker 1: bringing out classic programming. Right, So if you were in Detroit,
Speaker 1: you saw the bird Federich, if you were in New
Speaker 1: York you saw or you know, Reggie Jackson, you know,
Speaker 1: or if you were in l A, you know, you'd
Speaker 1: see Fernando and what they found that after about a
Speaker 1: week of that, people stopped watching. I think got a
Speaker 1: little dose like this is great, and then they stopped.
Speaker 1: And the reason they stopped because it just doesn't have
Speaker 1: the power in the attraction of a live game. A
Speaker 1: live game where you don't know who's gonna win, where
Speaker 1: you don't know what's gonna happen when you're anticipating next
Speaker 1: grade game is the single greatest reality at the tavement
Speaker 1: in the world. And you can't replace that. No, I
Speaker 1: agree with you and I but I usually when I'm watching,
Speaker 1: I'll be like doing so I'll be on the treadmill
Speaker 1: and I'll stumble into a like a game, and they
Speaker 1: don't usually put the score up, but I would agree
Speaker 1: if you know the outcome of the game, like big
Speaker 1: playoff games, and you know what's gonna happen. But some
Speaker 1: of these, like I would watch him when I was
Speaker 1: a kid, these Monday night baseball games, and I don't remember,
Speaker 1: you know, a random Brewers game against whoever. So it's
Speaker 1: a it is unique that way. Now I wanted to
Speaker 1: move on. How about this Jim Nance story. I know
Speaker 1: you've covered this here. Jim Nancy was supposedly a free agent,
Speaker 1: was appending free agent. He was still with CBS. Obviously
Speaker 1: he resigned. Uh And I had heard whispers and can
Speaker 1: you confirm it tonight that Jim Nay was so he's
Speaker 1: so in with the Masters people that if he had
Speaker 1: actually left CBS, they would have taken the Masters TV
Speaker 1: deal with him. Is that? Does that have any kernel
Speaker 1: of truth to it? You know I had heard the
Speaker 1: same rumor. I was never able to pin it down.
Speaker 1: I mean, he is synonymous with the Masters, his voice,
Speaker 1: his face, and the Masters does whatever they want. I mean,
Speaker 1: what's amazing is you know these people who run out
Speaker 1: got the national they don't follow the rules like everybody else.
Speaker 1: I mean, they've had CBS on a one year deal
Speaker 1: for fifty years. Can you imagine you Maaster been a
Speaker 1: network was on a one year contract for fifty plus years.
Speaker 1: So I mean, is that possible. I wasn't able to
Speaker 1: pin it down enough to you know, to report that,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think it's possible. They love dance, and
Speaker 1: Nance loves the Masters, and nances on record saying he
Speaker 1: wants to call the Masters to least seventy five years old,
Speaker 1: which is another fourteen years or so. So you know,
Speaker 1: Nan to me is you know what I mean, one
Speaker 1: of the you know, the four or five top talents
Speaker 1: in the whole industry. And he means a lot to
Speaker 1: the players, I mean to the members who run that club,
Speaker 1: and you know what I mean, And they do have options.
Speaker 1: I mean you're telling me, wouldn't NBC wouldn't love to
Speaker 1: get their hands on the Masters. ESPN's got the early rounds,
Speaker 1: Now what would they give for all four rounds for
Speaker 1: the Masters? So yeah, I mean the Nance negotiation was fascinating. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, he was, you know, this guy who everybody
Speaker 1: sees as a lifer, But look this is business. I mean,
Speaker 1: remember we grew up with John Madden, Madden word for
Speaker 1: all four networks, right, yeah, yeah, just this is business.
Speaker 1: You know. So if if Jim Nance had the opportunity
Speaker 1: to move to a bunch better job where he would
Speaker 1: be happier and more respected, I think he could have
Speaker 1: been would have the fact that CBS recognized that recognized
Speaker 1: how valuable he is, and he recognized how happy he is.
Speaker 1: It is CBS worked out to a good conclusion. Michael,
Speaker 1: speaking of golf um coverage over the last week, maybe
Speaker 1: week and a half, about what's going on in in
Speaker 1: Georgia with Major League Baseball and Dave Roberts had made
Speaker 1: some comments out here in Los Angeles. What are you
Speaker 1: hearing about Major League Baseball their stance on the All
Speaker 1: Star Game in Atlanta? And do you think that we'll
Speaker 1: see more of this? And if so, which what do
Speaker 1: you think the wind blows? Do you think this would
Speaker 1: be a huge lift or do you think this would
Speaker 1: be a huge blowback if major League clubs or leagues
Speaker 1: themselves take a stance against certain states legislators, governors and
Speaker 1: how they operate their states respectively. Yeah, I think you
Speaker 1: know the first question I think absolutely, we're gonna see
Speaker 1: sports and politics in twined. Even more, you're gonna have
Speaker 1: you know, groups and political parties across the aisle, you know,
Speaker 1: weighing in. You know what I mean, for sports to
Speaker 1: do this, to do that because of political reasons. I mean,
Speaker 1: Joe Biden was on ESPN the other night, you know,
Speaker 1: speaking out about it. So I think that you know,
Speaker 1: horses out of the barn. You know, the idea that
Speaker 1: you know who sports and politics shouldn't forget it, that
Speaker 1: you know that that auguments over However, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, And one of the few people in the
Speaker 1: media who is willing to say this, I do think
Speaker 1: there's blown back from it. I do think when you
Speaker 1: mingle sports and politics, anytime you delve into politics as
Speaker 1: corporation or corporate entity, you risk alienating half the audience.
Speaker 1: You get the people who who agree with you to
Speaker 1: support you, and the people who don't agree with you,
Speaker 1: we're not going to support you. And I think there
Speaker 1: was a recent surveying, and like the last week or
Speaker 1: two ago that said, you know, viewers have stopped watching
Speaker 1: certain sports or stopped participating as much being a sports
Speaker 1: fan because they were sick of the creeping uh intrusion
Speaker 1: of Paul Fix into sports. So I expected to continue,
Speaker 1: and I expect it to be blowback. If there's one
Speaker 1: league out there that you think won't actually go down
Speaker 1: or even rise up to the third rail into any
Speaker 1: of this, what lead do you think that is NFL?
Speaker 1: Um You know, when you look at the NFL there
Speaker 1: their seasonal audience has dropped eight percent this year. Now
Speaker 1: that's not as bad as you know, ten percent dropped
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, but I mean you compare
Speaker 1: it to you know, some of the forty drops to
Speaker 1: the NBA finals in Kentucky, Derby and Danley had finals
Speaker 1: and in baseball and you know what I mean. So
Speaker 1: if there's one uh sports league that's still bulletproof against that, uh,
Speaker 1: it's the NFL. And you know, and to the point
Speaker 1: about blowback also, I think the league's recognize this. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, Adam Silver has come out and said they're
Speaker 1: going to tone down the politics. You know this season.
Speaker 1: You know, we're gonna remove you know, all the banners
Speaker 1: and the signs from player jerseys and courtside that you
Speaker 1: know that the league is you know, very you know,
Speaker 1: confident that they made their point, you know, during a
Speaker 1: very important part of American history, and and now they
Speaker 1: want to just go on and play. But you know,
Speaker 1: like you say, sports can't hide anymore. You know, when
Speaker 1: when Joe Biden has been in office for a month,
Speaker 1: you know, gets up and start saying, you know, sports
Speaker 1: should do this or that, or Trump is from the
Speaker 1: bully pulpit on Twitter, you know, criticizing ESPN. There's no
Speaker 1: escaping anymore. Yeah. I just have a hard time listening
Speaker 1: to either coaches or managers or even players to that matter,
Speaker 1: that don't read everything that has to go on, like
Speaker 1: with a bill or with any kind of legislation that's
Speaker 1: being presented. I have a hard time listening and and
Speaker 1: respecting that when they're dedicated their life to their profession.
Speaker 1: So how can you be so invested in your craft
Speaker 1: and what you're doing and plus your celebrity status, they
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you you venture into what's happening
Speaker 1: on the opposite side of the country. Uh, in a city,
Speaker 1: you're in a state or something like that. It just
Speaker 1: doesn't add up for me. Well, what what it adds
Speaker 1: up as to an insufferability factor? You know, a TV
Speaker 1: viewers and Americans are you know, tired of rich, insufferable
Speaker 1: Hollywood celebrities lecturing them how to live their lives. And
Speaker 1: we're getting dangerously close to that with sports to you
Speaker 1: have athletes who are making you know, heads of billions
Speaker 1: of dollars, you know, lecturing you know, people who are
Speaker 1: trying to you know, make ends meet week to week,
Speaker 1: month to month, and it's kind of like, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: the high ground gets kind of you know, the moral
Speaker 1: high ground gets kind of slippery, particularly when you're not
Speaker 1: saying the same thing about China in other countries. You're
Speaker 1: just criticizing our own country. So they really got to
Speaker 1: watch that where you know what I mean, they don't
Speaker 1: have make create a basic disconnect between them and the
Speaker 1: fans that supports them. Yeah, and I think it cuts
Speaker 1: both ways. Michael, mean, it seems like this, you know,
Speaker 1: politics and sports is really a democratic issue. There's no
Speaker 1: to my knowledge, there's no sports leagues that are of
Speaker 1: a republican based dogma. Uh And can you imagine if
Speaker 1: one of the sports leagues took a position on the
Speaker 1: other side, people's heads would explode there also, But I
Speaker 1: think it's just the case and we as you said,
Speaker 1: you referenced that study, and that's a great study that
Speaker 1: just came out within the last like ten days or so,
Speaker 1: and it was across the board, Michael. It wasn't just Republicans,
Speaker 1: it was Democrats and independence were watching less sports because
Speaker 1: of this nuts And how much coverage did you see that?
Speaker 1: Very little? And I'll tell you why, because most of
Speaker 1: the sports media is in favor of athletes being activists.
Speaker 1: They're in favor of sports leagues being activists. They're in
Speaker 1: favor of sports playing a role, uh in the political debate.
Speaker 1: So I mean, I think there's some some narrative building
Speaker 1: at work too, where you know what I mean, the
Speaker 1: sports media is going to cover something if it fits
Speaker 1: with their narrative, but they're not going to cover it
Speaker 1: if it doesn't. And certainly that study did not go
Speaker 1: with their narrative. So are you still you You mentioned
Speaker 1: you you were at Rutgers. Are you still doing some
Speaker 1: stuff at Rutgers now? Or is that in the past.
Speaker 1: I'm not teaching uh this semester, but I've been an
Speaker 1: adjunct professor there for five years. Loved it, great school.
Speaker 1: I taught Multibedia Sports Reporting UM, which is basically I
Speaker 1: think the only sports reporting anymore. You know, the idea
Speaker 1: of you know, people being segmented by media, you know,
Speaker 1: it doesn't exist anymore where you're just printed through, you're
Speaker 1: just radio, you're just you know, everybody does everything now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely, Yuh. I also what we have you I
Speaker 1: wanted to bring up the story and you you had
Speaker 1: some stuff I saw about this. Uh, the Athletic, which
Speaker 1: has been around for a few years now, has some
Speaker 1: big time players in sports, you know, sports writing. Got
Speaker 1: some legendary figures there that right at the Athletic behind
Speaker 1: the paywall, and there was there's been some talk that
Speaker 1: they're gonna merge with Axios, the which I think of
Speaker 1: as a political operation. There is this bad news for
Speaker 1: the athletic or is this good news for the athletic
Speaker 1: if they end up merging. I actually think it's it's
Speaker 1: good news for the athletic because you know, the Athletic, uh,
Speaker 1: you know went from being the place where everybody want
Speaker 1: to work, you know, two or three years ago to
Speaker 1: kind of you know struggling for the subscribers and you
Speaker 1: know they don't accept the add so you know, that's
Speaker 1: a whole huge stigin of money that's just turned off
Speaker 1: U and newsletters right now with the hot thing. We're
Speaker 1: a newsletter company, you know, Front Office Sports has five newsletters,
Speaker 1: was born the way, and we are growing like a weed.
Speaker 1: So I mean, for them to link up with a
Speaker 1: company like that that is heading north, I think it's
Speaker 1: great for the athletic and it's great for journalism because
Speaker 1: I want to see journalists employed. It breaks my heart
Speaker 1: when I see folks losing their jobs, you know, because
Speaker 1: the corporate entities that manage them don't know what the
Speaker 1: hell they're doing. So I mean, you know, to me,
Speaker 1: whatever is good for the athletic is good for the industry.
Speaker 1: But Michael, on that note, with what you have experienced,
Speaker 1: what you have done, and now what you see in
Speaker 1: today's world, do you think there are more or less
Speaker 1: qualified journalists in the sports market, Because it feels like
Speaker 1: to me, especially when it comes to a local level,
Speaker 1: that they're not necessarily journalists. They are just an extension
Speaker 1: of the pr machine of that team or that league. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's clearly less. Uh, you know, you can't
Speaker 1: lay off you know, thousands upon thousands of train qualified
Speaker 1: sports journalists over the last ten years and not having
Speaker 1: the impact on your business. I mean even just watching
Speaker 1: TV or going on websites. I'm saying basic mistakes that
Speaker 1: you never used to see. You know why is that? Well,
Speaker 1: who were the first people that got rid of a right?
Speaker 1: You know, if you worked in a newspaper or magazine
Speaker 1: like I did, you know you knew the copy editors.
Speaker 1: They were usually you know, kind of weird, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of indio synchrome, you know, neurotic, introversial. You know,
Speaker 1: they studied you know, English folklore or something. But they
Speaker 1: would save your butt come crunch time, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. They would find the mistakes, or they would
Speaker 1: ask the questions, or they would ride your ass, you know,
Speaker 1: to make sure you got it right. And when they
Speaker 1: took kind of you know, the first thing they wiped
Speaker 1: out is that kind of safety layer. So I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that as much as anything else has hurt,
Speaker 1: you know, the quality of the product. Well that not
Speaker 1: only that, but also the influence from teams or from
Speaker 1: from professional leagues, because god forbid, you criticize a team
Speaker 1: a player, and they'll light you up, or they'll just
Speaker 1: want to allow you inside the locker room anymore, grant
Speaker 1: you interview requests. I mean new York can get away
Speaker 1: with it because you got eighteen twenty people on a
Speaker 1: New York Yankees beat, you know, the Jets, the Giants,
Speaker 1: things of that nature. But there's not a lot of
Speaker 1: hard hitting markets out there anymore that allow their journalists
Speaker 1: to attack and to criticize and to critique the talent
Speaker 1: or the management. It's a great point. I mean, as
Speaker 1: the saw is of newspapers and their influence wings, you know,
Speaker 1: the power of the league's and particularly teams increases. I
Speaker 1: see it really at the college level. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: these college programs could free you out if coach doesn't
Speaker 1: like what you wrote. You know, and you know, and
Speaker 1: there's no respect anymore for that kind of line between
Speaker 1: what journalists have to do and what uh colleges and
Speaker 1: sports leagues have to do. So yeah, that that's a
Speaker 1: real problem. What you need is people who are going
Speaker 1: to support you when that phone call comes from you know,
Speaker 1: the GM or the coach or the president of the school.
Speaker 1: You need somebody who's going to have your back, not
Speaker 1: somebody's gonna throw you under the bus, you know, Michael,
Speaker 1: just we gotta wrap this up. But I just following
Speaker 1: up that train of thought here, I know, I've done
Speaker 1: sports radio a long time, and I have noticed over
Speaker 1: the years when you're critical that there were people that
Speaker 1: love that. Now, I feel like over the last like
Speaker 1: five ten years, I'm not sure when exactly it started.
Speaker 1: It's like many people can't handle They want you to
Speaker 1: only say nice things about the athletes they like and
Speaker 1: the players they like. It's a very odd change that
Speaker 1: has taken place. I don't know if you've noticed that,
Speaker 1: but I have. My theory is it's because of like
Speaker 1: MLB dot com NFL dot com. They get the watered
Speaker 1: down story. But it seems like many many younger fans
Speaker 1: do not want negativity with their sports coverage. It's very
Speaker 1: odd to me. Have you noticed that at all? It
Speaker 1: is very odd. It's like, you know, you're supposed to
Speaker 1: be a cheerleader, which is the exact opposite of what
Speaker 1: being the journalist is. You know what I mean. You
Speaker 1: know you're supposed to be yeah, and you know, if
Speaker 1: somebody does something great, you know, do it. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's one of the things I've always respected about the
Speaker 1: NFL is the big boys and girls. When it comes
Speaker 1: to this, you know you're gonna rip them. You're gonna
Speaker 1: criticize them, you know what I mean, they'll they'll take
Speaker 1: it and move on. But you're right, some of the
Speaker 1: smaller outfits are so uh, you know, sensitive to critics, schism,
Speaker 1: and you know they have these you know, fanboy basis
Speaker 1: on Twitter. You know what I mean? Would you move
Speaker 1: into action? You know what I mean before you know,
Speaker 1: be ratio. So yeah, I think I think it is
Speaker 1: a problem, but I think it's about the growing polarization
Speaker 1: of the country. If you look at politics, we used
Speaker 1: to be able to talk as the country. We used
Speaker 1: to be able to come together. Now it's like you've
Speaker 1: got to pick a side and the other side of evil. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I completely agree, Michael Tremaneus. We could do like another
Speaker 1: hour and a half, but we'll let you go. And
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. And again, if you want to read
Speaker 1: more of Michael, it's Front Office Sports dot com and
Speaker 1: how can people find you on Twitter? There, Michael, my
Speaker 1: handle is m McCarthy rent at Twitter, And uh, I
Speaker 1: appreciate the invite. I really enjoyed the conversation.