1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stephane 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: Never Told You production of I Heart Radio. So today 3 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: we're bringing back kind of a controversial episode on queer baiting. 4 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: It's not that the episode was controversial, but the topic 5 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: itself is very, very controversial, and there have been a 6 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: lot of renewed arguments around it lately, and I wanted 7 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: to share, of course, the fan fiction facts that I've 8 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: seen lately. I've seen a new trend where people are 9 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: writing in um ships, as in relationships that they don't 10 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: actually ship but like to write in, which is nice. 11 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: I think that's a step forward. It's not I think 12 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: that's a good thing. I think you're like, oh, let 13 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: me try this, and that their their experience has been positive. UM. 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: So there's that, But also recently it's hard to say 15 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: we're recording a lot right now. UM. We did a 16 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: happy hour on the HBO show Our Flag Means Death, 17 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: which I not to spoil it. I don't think this 18 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: will which is I'm sure it's very comforting to everybody. UM, 19 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,559 Speaker 1: but it had an example of something that I thought 20 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: was queer rating and then turned out not to be, 21 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 1: which it was very refreshing and the kind of depressing 22 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: without refreshing. But it's caused a lot of conversation. It's 23 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: caused a lot of conversation, and recently renewed for a 24 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: second season. It took a while recently renewed, and so 25 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: I'm sure we had a lot to say about that. 26 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: We'll have a lot to say about that. But as 27 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: this is Pride month, I was just thinking about that, 28 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: and a lot of people have sent me articles about 29 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: that show and about what it could mean and the 30 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: representation and in terms of how you can read these characters. 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: And I'm very excited to talk about it. Are to 32 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: half talked about it like we're time traveling right now. 33 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: This is wild as it is, so please enjoy this 34 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: classic episode. Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome 35 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: to stuff. I never told of your production of I 36 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. So I have a very important question for you, Samantha. 37 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: Oh no, yes, the most important question. Here we go. 38 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: Are you a shipper? Okay, so I don't I didn't 39 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: know what that was for the longest time, and I 40 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: took that very literally and I was like, like ships, 41 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,679 Speaker 1: like I like ships, anither ship? I don't mean, do 42 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: you like ships, as you know, because I get very 43 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: very like motion suck. So the idea of being on 44 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: a ship is terrifying to me. And just because you know, 45 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: all I think of is diseases like cruises, cruise ships 46 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: and diseases, so and murders in the middle of nowhere. 47 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: So yeah, no, but that that I know what it 48 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: actually is, which is meaning putting people together in relationships. Right, Okay. 49 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: I had to ask again because I'm like, I'm not 50 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: one of those cool kids. What he does mean? So no, 51 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: very long answer no, because I had no idea what 52 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: that was. Now Do I like couples that are given 53 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: to me? Like I know that, yes, some them don't 54 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: make sense and fill force? But you know, but so 55 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: are you like watching a show and there's two characters 56 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: and you just want them to get together or do 57 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: you sort of just sort of go with it? I 58 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: think typically I go with it now, to be fair SVU. 59 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: For the longest time, I did want Olivia and Stabler. 60 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: Elliott and Olivia they should have gotten the other, but 61 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: they really shouldn't know because you can't work like that, 62 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: and they know. But to me, Olivia was just so 63 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: alone and her closest connection was him, so it only 64 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: made sense to me. Mm hmm. Did you know anyone 65 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: else that shared that viewpoint? Oh? So many people, which 66 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: is why, even though you know it is a cop show, 67 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: people are still excited that Elliott Stabler is coming back, 68 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: he's having a he's getting his own show, and people 69 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: probably because it's definitely another law You know, Law in 70 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 1: Order has like fifteen shows and this is one more 71 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: of those. But yeah, it's gonna be a cover crossover 72 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: and anytime they do like cross social media, people freak out. 73 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: I am one of those people, It's true. One more 74 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: follow up question, does this couple have a name? Like 75 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: a ship name? See? That never happened in my generation. 76 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: I don't think that wasn't a thing. Who was the 77 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: most famous couple that has I don't know. I always 78 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: think of brand Jelina, Oh yeah, yeah, there you go. 79 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: But Angelina, so that is in my timeframe. But I 80 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: think that was just so dumb because I also was 81 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: not team but Angelina, Okay, I was too, So that 82 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: helps like that just has a negative connotation to me. 83 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm. So obviously, since you're asking me these questions, 84 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: you and I know that because of your fan fiction. 85 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: You ship, you shipped pretty hard, don't you. I it's 86 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: so funny to me, UM, because as I've said before, 87 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,559 Speaker 1: I am not a romantic person. Like I don't watch 88 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: brom comms. It's not my thing. It's almost always my 89 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: least favorite part of any entertainment because I'm just not 90 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: into it. UM. But recently, I don't know why I 91 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: have started shipping things, and I think I ship things 92 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: that I can tell is never going to happen. I 93 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: don't know, because it feels almost like a safer thing. 94 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: Are are more fun to imagine? Is it more like 95 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory type of Yeah, they're actually together, even 96 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: though they're not going to say it out loud, but 97 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: if you watch their actions, they're together. Well. I've had 98 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: an in depth discussion recently with a lot of people 99 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: about UM, particularly Star Wars and sure, yeah, but Luke 100 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: and and Han and that I've started shipping that, and 101 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: I have no idea why, UM and I So today 102 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: we're we're talking about queer baiting. And when I think 103 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: about the difference to me and what queer baiting is 104 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: and isn't, because there is a huge debate over it 105 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: is intention and I I don't feel like the writer's 106 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: ever meant for anybody to interpret that. Han and Luke 107 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: we're gonna be together, you know what I mean. So 108 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like a conspiracy so much is. But 109 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: he he rushed off into the blizzard on haff to 110 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: save him and body heat. It's true. It's true. It's true. 111 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: That's true. I've seen it several times now, so many now, yes, yes, 112 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: you're the best, Thank you. Yes. So we're talking about 113 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: the contentious term of queer bating, which is something that 114 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: has been on my mind for a while. Um, and 115 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: I have found myself falling into these relationships that get 116 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: brought up in this conversation a lot. Dean and Cassiele 117 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: from Supernatural desty L is probably the one of the biggest, 118 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: if not the biggest example given. Oh yes, Now, don't 119 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: get me wrong. Before I even started watching it and 120 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: now I have, it's of my regulars, now my rotation. Um, 121 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: you did tell me this, you, This was the first 122 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: thing you told me. And and then when I was 123 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: introduced castile on the show, I was like, oh, there 124 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: he is, and You're like just wait, just wait. And 125 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: then they even have an episode where they dedicate to 126 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: the fact that that is a theory. Yeah, the fan 127 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: fiction episode, right, yes, yes, Um yeah, They're probably the 128 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: biggest example. And it's one of those things where again 129 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: I'm kind of oblivious almost when it comes to romantic singles, Samantha. 130 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: You know this, I just miss a lot of context, 131 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 1: a lot. But the fact that I picked up on 132 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: destl without the Internet, I think that is that says something. 133 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: I was like, these two characters, something's going on here. 134 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: This is a little I can see them getting together. 135 00:08:54,679 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: Dean even says he loves him anyway. Signs are there, Samantha, 136 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: The signs are there apparently, yes, yes, Um. And then 137 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: I I got really caught up in Finn and po 138 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: for a hot minute from Star Wars, which is called 139 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: storm Pilot. That's the shipping name for that, and I 140 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: really wanted them to end up together. Um, and I 141 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: could go on such a deep dive, and I kind 142 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: of did in our two part fan fiction episodes on 143 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: why this whole thing is where? Why are we so eager, 144 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: or at least some segment of us, to put two 145 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: male characters together. Um. I don't know if you know this, Samantha, 146 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: because you not in the fan fiction world, like I am, 147 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: but slash it just makes up a huge, huge portion 148 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: of fan fiction and it's mostly written by women, and 149 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: it's two men together. What's slash? Is that what it's called? Yeah? Ok, 150 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: because you you indicate with the slash, so it would 151 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: be dean slash castil. Yeah, that's not how I Okay. 152 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: I'm glad you told me that, because I would have 153 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: interpreted as a different thing, like they're the same person, 154 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: one in the same but not necessarily relationship and or 155 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: is either or m hmm okay, yeah, well I'm happy 156 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: to share my fan fiction knowledge at any point. So, um, 157 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: I actually I feel like I could do a ten 158 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: part series on this, and I want to talk about 159 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: it so much, but if I do it in a 160 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: kind of a nutshell. I think one of the main 161 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: reasons is there are more male characters. They're traditionally more 162 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: well developed, the male body is less politicized in the 163 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: female body in a plethora of ways. Uh. And then 164 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: the lack of platonic relationships, but particularly between men and 165 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: women in our media, but also men and men um 166 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: and so any type of closeness. I feel like we 167 00:10:54,320 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: automatically interpret it as romantic because it usually is. But UM, 168 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: the truth remains that some companies and creators tease a 169 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: queer relationship and never actually give it. And it's become 170 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: a hot topic of debate. And uh, I've I've seen 171 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: it in uh so so many things and and oh anyway, 172 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: another piece of this, I I know I'm seeing things, 173 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 1: like I said, where writers didn't intend it, like in 174 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: Han and Luca is the best example, because I just 175 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: feel like there's no way they thought all these women 176 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: would latch onto that. UM. And I know I brought 177 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: up before, UM how my gay male gay friends have 178 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: said that this makes them uncomfortable, that they feel like 179 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: they can't have platonic relationships with a man without it 180 00:11:55,600 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: being misinterpreted by somebody. And I I would love to 181 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: to hear from gay listeners with your thoughts and experiences 182 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: about this. UM. I know for me personally, when I 183 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: hadn't really come out as by but I had been 184 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,119 Speaker 1: with men and women, there was sort of this assumed 185 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: sluttiness that I must be attracted to everyone, right, and UM, 186 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: it was really problematic and it made me very uncomfortable. 187 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: And and I had more than one dude he would 188 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: come up to me and say, well, you kissed her, 189 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: so you must be down to kiss me. What? Um? 190 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: So yes, please, listeners right in your thoughts about that, 191 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: your experiences with that. But okay, let's start with a definition. Essentially, 192 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: queer baiting is what it sounds like. It's when creators 193 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: and corporations lure lgbt Q plus audiences with the promise 194 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: of a queer relationship and then that queer relationship never happens. 195 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: Queer baiting is usually between two male characters. Again, that 196 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: could because most of our developed characters are male, but 197 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: not always. Queer baiting is a way for our entertainment 198 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: to appeal to the masses while also safely bringing in 199 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: l g b t Q plus characters. So sort of 200 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: like a like kind of backhanded way of trying to 201 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: have your cake and eat it too, to not offend anybody. Um. 202 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: Some see queer bating as a lack of representation leading 203 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: to misinterpretation. Some see it as a calculated strategy, like 204 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: these storylines are never going to pay off, they never 205 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: intended for them to pay off. They see it as 206 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 1: a way for companies to use queer people as almost 207 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: pawns and profitability. It's a big tease the creators put 208 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: in this subtext that is never going to amount to anything. 209 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: Um Glad's report found that about six point four percent 210 00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: of television's main characters or lgbt Q plus, so that's 211 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: not that many. And just I would I would ask 212 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: take a moment to absorb how not only disappointing but 213 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: painful that is. It's toying with the community that doesn't 214 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: frequently see themselves represented, and then almost ridiculing people in 215 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: that community for thinking that that relationship could ever have 216 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: been queer, that you could ever have interpreted it that way. 217 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: It's almost gas lighting, like, how how did you see this, 218 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: your silly fan, You're reading too much into it. Um. 219 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: Some of these relationships are openly made fun of by creators, 220 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: and the overall messages representation of these relationships is worth 221 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: less than the risk of offending any homophobic audience member, right, 222 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: And I would add that it seems like it fetishizes 223 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: that in general, the LGBTQ population in general, which is 224 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: harmful in every way. Let's just go in but fetishizing 225 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: anything is harmful. But it does do that, and that's you. 226 00:14:57,880 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: They're using it as a way to make profit, which 227 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: is gross. Yes, yes it is, but a very brief history. 228 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: In the nineteen nineties, companies started going after what was 229 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: called the pink dollar or gay patronage. Some experts argue 230 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: the merit of this idea. Either way, cur bating stem 231 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: from the corporate desire to market to l g bt 232 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: Q plus audiences while not once again to turning any 233 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: homophobic viewers having their cake like you said and eating 234 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: it too. So I gotta have it all, want all 235 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: the audience, so god, let's to say in that fun line. So, 236 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: queer bating has a long history, but it's in it's 237 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: more modern sense. It goes back to quote, gay window 238 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: advertising in the nineteen eighties, or using subtle elements to 239 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: draw in the l g b d Q plus crowd. 240 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: Some scholars also called this gay vague. There's also hoh 241 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: yea or homooticism yay, which was first coined in two 242 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: thousand one, which is more closely related to queer coating 243 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: or reading. More on that in a second, but in 244 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties it was used in the U. 245 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: S courts to describe homophobic rhetoric. It's current meaning most 246 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: likely originates on tumbler as early as the nineties. So 247 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: another part of this is called situational homosexuality. Essentially, the 248 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: absence of the characters of one gender means that people 249 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: read a certain amount of same sex eroticism. However, many 250 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: modern day researchers think the term is archaic, that it 251 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: could apply to things like prisons, a temporary state, sort 252 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: of like quote, I experimented in college, right as if 253 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: it's only it's just based on the city. It was 254 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: just a stage. It was just a stage in my life. Yeah. Yeah, 255 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: So there are a lot, a lot of aspects to 256 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: unpack in all of that, and we will. But first 257 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: we're gonna pause for a quick break for word from 258 00:16:47,480 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: our sponsor. I am I'm back, Thank you sponsor. So 259 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: let's let's return again to Supernatural, which I do think 260 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: is probably the biggest example modern current example of this 261 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: if we look at it specifically. Some have argued that 262 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: when Creators leaned into Destio, which is again these the 263 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: team of main characters Dean and Castile, their ratings went 264 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: up and the nature of that show, and that it 265 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: is very self aware and very meta. There's like fan 266 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: fiction about that. It's kind of confusing to explain but 267 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: I love seeing people's faces when I try to explain this. Basically, 268 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 1: they're they're sort of semi famous in this world, in 269 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: this fake world, and people write fan fiction about them. 270 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: But it's a cult, and it seems like it's mainly 271 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 1: like young yes, oh thank you, who she is the 272 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: like biggest fan of of Supernatural within the world which 273 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: is like a series of books. Um she is like 274 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: the more stereotypical fan fiction girl that they could have written. 275 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: They did. They did um so because it is that way, 276 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: because it is very self aware and very meta, there's 277 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: a lot of room for creators to address these things, 278 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: to directly address they're the fan culture, the fandom around 279 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: Supernatural well at the same time sometimes mocking and dismissing them. 280 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: The actors also play with at conventions and in bloopers, 281 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: this dean and castile relationship, so they know about it 282 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: and they leaned into it, but there's still kind of 283 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: a mockery of it. I think can make fun of 284 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: themselves in general. But yeah, they definitely, and especially the 285 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: earlier episodes, the kind of homophobic yeah lines and and taglines. 286 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: It's kind of it's sad. Yeah, yeah, and I I 287 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: will fight anyone. I think Dean it's bisexual. I don't 288 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: care what the creators say, but that's my opinion. I 289 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: like that you get the one that is the most 290 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: like as as he puts it in the show, because 291 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: I just rewatched this episode where they are where the 292 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: brothers are actually confused in being in the relationship and 293 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: they're like, why do they think we're gay? Dean's like, 294 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: why do we why do they think we're gay? And Uh, Sam, 295 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm saying this. Sam's responses, Maybe you're 296 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: but you're overcompensating. Is that why you think that? Now? 297 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: It's it's odd because if you if a show goes 298 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: on long enough, it's just this show is like fifteen 299 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: years old. There's gonna be inconsistencies with the character because 300 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: he is presented as like this alpha male always with 301 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: the ladies. Um womanizer. Womanizer definitely Uh and you know 302 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: he like listens to hard rock and he's a classic 303 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 1: rock and he's gonna classic classic rock. I don't know. 304 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: I really put my finger on why I think it 305 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: and I get too hard into Supernatural and don't everybody's like, 306 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 1: what the hell are y'all doing? This is not smnting. 307 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: Would you say Crowley and Dean were also a ship? Oh? 308 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: Absolutely yes, and it probably pretty much talks about being 309 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: I think he's bisexual. He kind of lens into that. 310 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: Anywhere there was a whole like triangle castile Crowley Dean. Yes, 311 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: all right, okay, we've talked about Supernatural lot. Here's the 312 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: probably the other biggest example UM is the BBC show Sherlock. 313 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: I don't think you could read one article about queer 314 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: bating and not come across this um. And it is 315 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: shipping of the two main characters, John Watson and Sherlock Holmes, 316 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: which is called John Walk which, by the way, again 317 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: this is where I'm like, what, what's happening? What? I 318 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: don't understand what's happening? Because I loved that show. I 319 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: love that show. That was one of the ones that 320 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: I was always into. And like, I know, the conversation 321 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: came up that Sherlock maybe gay or bisexual because he's 322 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: never been with women, or have been with anyone quote 323 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: unquote it's specifically women, but I've never like, I know, 324 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: there's that underlying joke because they're always together, so everybody 325 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: assumes they're together, which, by the way once again is 326 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: kind of like, why can't they just be friends in 327 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: the story. But yeah, and I didn't. I never saw that. 328 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: It's one of those things where once you look at 329 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: and and Samantha, believe me, you can find you know, gifts, 330 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: just pages of gifts, like see the proof. Um, once 331 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: you see it, it's hard to unsee. They definitely stand 332 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: really like way too close to each other a lot 333 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: like face to face. And I know, I don't really 334 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: remember it, it's been so long since I watched it, 335 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: but I know there was like Moriarty is sometimes criticized 336 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: as being painted his like the evil gay trope, right, 337 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: kind of like a disturbed individual. Um, And I know 338 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: there was something along with that that people often point to. 339 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: And and yeah, as you're saying, I do see the 340 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: point that because of the lack of representation, um, and don't. 341 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: I mean this is also you could argue very true 342 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: about our our society in the real world, where where 343 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: men aren't allowed to have these emotional, deeply patonic relationships 344 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: without them being read as romance. Um. The SAME's true 345 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: for female characters. Again, I think I know I mentioned 346 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: in a past episode if if if Luke had in 347 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: fact been a woman, I'm telling you you would have 348 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: been like it would have been meant to be interpreted 349 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: that way. Um, people would read their relationship between John 350 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: and Sherlock as romantic if one of them was me 351 00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: on the other female, or at least a lot more 352 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: people would. Again, it boils down to we don't have 353 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: a lot of representation, and we don't have a lot 354 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: of diversity of stories being told and relationships and complex 355 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: nuanced relationships. And I think that's changing, but right now 356 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: we're we're just so desperate for these stories, so we're 357 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: finding them where we can, are writing them. And I 358 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: will come back to the importance of fan fiction and 359 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: all this in a minute. Um. And John Lack is 360 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: a great example where there are all these in show 361 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: jokes that they are a coupled that show acknowledging what 362 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: fans want, teasing it, but then nothing happens. Um. There 363 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: are even references to Shorelock Moriarity fan fiction that are 364 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: derided in the show. The creator Stephen Moffatt went out 365 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: of his way to say in an interview, in terms 366 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: of whether or not Sherlock was a sexual, is the 367 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: choice of a monk, not the choice of an a sexual. 368 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: If he was a sexual, there would be no tension 369 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: in that, no fun in that. It's someone who abstains 370 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: who's interesting. Um. And he gets criticized a lot in 371 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: this whole kind of his response to people wanting that 372 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: right are seeing it because I've read interviews where he's like, wow, 373 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: I can't believe anyone would read it that way. And 374 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: then I've read somewhere it's clear that he knows and 375 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: is sort of making fun of it. Yeah, and he 376 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: just doesn't care. Right. So there are also other shows 377 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: in entertainment that included shows like House uh, the O 378 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: C Merlin, Riverdale, and Rosolian Isles and among so many others, 379 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: Solo a Star Wars story too, by the way, um 380 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: some classics. Yes, And I remember this because I remember 381 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: it was so shocking to me in my very very 382 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: very conservative household, because I watched the show Gabrielle and 383 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: Zena from Zena Warrior Princess. I think that was the 384 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: first like I was like, what's happening? This is not what? Um. 385 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: Then of course we have the Madonna and Brittany kissing 386 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: at the MTV Music Awards. I think that would be 387 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: definitely one of the big queer baiting things, because there's 388 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: a lot of controversy like what is this, why are 389 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: you doing this? As well as people always forget that 390 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: Christina Aguilera was there too, and she kissed her. I 391 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: don't know if you knew that they were both in 392 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: stage with her. Yes, also Katie Perry's I kissed a 393 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: girl and I liked it, which also has other connotations 394 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: because she had been in this very religious lifestyle before 395 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: she became well well known, which was always kind of like, 396 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: huh interesting, Yeah, from what I remember, which I feel 397 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: like a lot of pop female singers came from that 398 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: kind of genre anyway. And then Rita or a song 399 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: Girls the new one, uh, because you know what sex cells. 400 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: And there was that huge debate about why they're doing 401 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: all of this or why it's such a new fad. 402 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: It seems um and the capitalization of pride companies are 403 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: getting in on it, and as we see when you 404 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: get sponsored, yeah, in a Pride parade, it's really kind 405 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: of weird essentially doing the same thing, not actually committing 406 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: to representation, but wanting queer patronage. Yeah, And I mean 407 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of argument about this with like 408 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,479 Speaker 1: kind of the annoyance with companies that just are like, 409 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: here's a rainbow colored cupcake, happy pride, right, Like you know, 410 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: there there's debate at least that's happening, and companies are 411 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: appreciating the importance of it, but it feels so like 412 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: superficial and shallow. What else are you doing? I mean 413 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: that kind of goes hand in hand with the Black 414 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: Lives Matter movement and like people do the one black tile, 415 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: Like wait, but your company is not showing that in 416 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: your hiring processes and all of this, and it's the 417 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: same way you're showing this pride flag. Do you have 418 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: representation in your company? Have you had it? Do you 419 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: actually acknowledge that that needs to be a part of 420 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: your diversity? Hello? Yes? Yeah? Um? And I guess speaking 421 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: of singers, are Ariana Grande got accused of queer rating 422 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: in her song Monopoly, which is a collaboration with Victoria 423 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: mone nay Um when she's saying about liking men and 424 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: women Taylor Swift video you need to calm down. Of course, 425 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: caused a huge debate about where was she before this? 426 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: And it's sort of it just feels like capitalizing and 427 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: there's there's a certain degree to where people and entertainment, 428 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: they are trying to make money, they are trying to profit, 429 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: but it can feel so gross and like but what 430 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 1: else have you done? What else are you doing? Um? 431 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 1: And some people it's we should say view the very 432 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: existence of queer brating as progress, that queer brading the term, 433 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't exist without at least some queer acceptance and examples 434 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: in our media. There's also a debate about erasure versus labeling, 435 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: like some some argue that it shouldn't be that you 436 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: have to explicitly label oh, this is the gay couple, 437 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: and then it becomes, at least unfortunately right now, it 438 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: becomes their defining thing, like that is all about them, 439 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: and they're not really complex or nuanced other than that. 440 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 1: So that's another piece of this, right. And I think 441 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: when you see because Ariana Grande was uh in two debates, 442 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: the Monopoly song and another one where the video uh 443 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: where she's talking about getting together with a dude ends 444 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: up in the end the video kissing a girl. Um, 445 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: and that was I was staying more criticism on that 446 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: because obviously that wasn't necessarily a part of the song. Right. 447 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: And then you have Monopoly where she people felt like 448 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: she actually came out as by or pants actual and 449 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: people celebrated that. So it's really interesting to see the 450 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: two levels of like, okay, who and what dictates if 451 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: this should be celebrated or this should be condemned, Right, 452 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: and I interesting conversation. It does come up in a 453 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: lot of things we talked about where it's always important 454 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: to remind yourself no community is a monolith, and there 455 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: should there should be health debate, and that's good. I 456 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: do think it's good that it's happening, but yeah, you 457 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: can see it definitely and things like that with Ario 458 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: and Grande. Right. Um, there's also a difference between queer 459 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: baiting and ship teasing. Ship teasing, which I didn't know 460 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 1: endulges now it is different because at least one person 461 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: in question is canonically queer. Also, there's a problem with 462 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: only defining relationships the physical things like sus I, it's 463 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: queer baiting if the same sex couple doesn't have sex 464 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: but are clearly together in other way. Yeah, that's caused 465 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: a lot of debate to right, well, we never saw 466 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: them have sex, but there there are other ways to 467 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: be in relationships. More representation the through line through this 468 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: whole episode. But that is problematic to you when you're saying, well, 469 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: you're not in a relationship because you never had sex. 470 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,479 Speaker 1: Um and and just to to clarify for people who 471 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: are in as big big nerds as I am, Cannon 472 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: is the accepted h like, not fan fiction. This is 473 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: what happened. So they acknowledged, oh, this character is gay, 474 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: is Cannon instead of me being like, but Dean and 475 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: he's bisexual and it's just me and a lot of 476 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: other people but not creators. Um oh uh. So queer 477 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: coding is also a different thing. And this I didn't 478 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: know about until we did this episode. Mary Kate McAlpine 479 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: over at Medium it wrote about hot Fuzz in particular, 480 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: and I got to watch it for the first time. 481 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: It was some of the best research I've ever had. 482 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: Um And So this is the Simon peg Nick Frost film, 483 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: which was a two thousand and seven action comedy that 484 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: was the second in the so called Cornetto trilogy. In 485 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: the editing of the script, they got rid of, uh 486 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: the love interest at the female love interest and made 487 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: the conscious decision to leave in those scenes with the 488 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: overlying romantic interest between the two male characters. Um or 489 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: at least it can definitely be read that way. And 490 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: and one of the creators, they've acknowledged it, celebrated it. Um, 491 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: they're all for you shipping it, uh anything. Never. One 492 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: thing that makes this example in particular different is they 493 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: never make fun of There's never to the moment of 494 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: like are YouTube ky or something like, it's not it's 495 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: just not mentioned. Um So that is queer coding this 496 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: to say, queer baiting sometimes gets level that fandoms where 497 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: the relationships don't go the way fans want, which I 498 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: feel like happens a lot, especially towards the end of 499 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: the series. Um, there's some contention around whether we can 500 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: assume what the creators intended and what we wanted. And 501 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,959 Speaker 1: that was worse than when creators and actors played into 502 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: the trope and people saw an evil plot. I had 503 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: to do that way. Sorry. M Ships can be a 504 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: very risky business. The question becomes are we we are 505 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: baiting ourselves? Are we so desperate for representation we're seeing 506 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: it where it is? And are we dismissing cannon couples 507 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: because we want to ship another couple so badly and 508 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: we'll see no evidence otherwise, Annie, do you I think 509 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: I'm a very flexible I could admit I don't know, 510 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: I'm not very possessive or controlling, which I think it's 511 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: the way to be of entertainment. And I'll be like, 512 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: you know what, I can recognize it was never meant 513 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: to go this way, but it's fun to think about. 514 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: And by the way, some called this slash goggles. Yes, 515 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: so fandoms can be they can be very um protective 516 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: of stuff that they care about, and there can be 517 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: a level of like infighting and gate keeping and entitlements 518 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: and uh, I know for some people you're thinking what 519 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: because I feel you probably won't encounter this unless you 520 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: do go online and look up fan fiction or forms 521 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: or whatever. But believe me, it's there and people will like. 522 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: One of the most prominent examples to me is um 523 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: people at least in the fan fiction world, really don't 524 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: like Jenny Weasley, and they think you're stupid for even 525 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: thinking they should be a couple because they so badly 526 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: wanted things to go a different way. And that's different 527 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: from queer baiting, and and so some people are believe 528 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: we use queer bating way too much for we really 529 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: just wanted things to go a different way and they didn't. 530 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: I mean, people had a hard time. They really wanted uh, 531 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 1: Harry and her Mindy to be together. They did. My 532 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: mom wanted that too, and that was one of the 533 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: cutest things because she's also not like a super she 534 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: doesn't ship or I was just surprised when she said that. 535 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: She's like, I thought they should have ended up together. Well, 536 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: they kind of changed the relationship between Nevil Lombottom and 537 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: Luna love Good from the books to the movies because 538 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,719 Speaker 1: in the books they don't ever get together, but in 539 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: the movie they do. Yeah, I think they do get together, 540 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,959 Speaker 1: but it's like not, yeah, it's not in the books, 541 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: Like you would have to read something else, so you 542 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: would hope that it would be that, but they actually 543 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: made it happen. Yeah, looks and I feel like that's 544 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: definitely something that was a fan more than it was 545 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: actually written. Oh well, that's an interesting point too, of 546 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: like fan service and uh, I mean Star Wars comes 547 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: up in so much of this because it is as 548 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: huge as we talked about, this huge franchise, right, and 549 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 1: so like there was a debate around the same sex 550 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: kiss at the end of the newest one, and some 551 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: people were like, well celebrating it. Other people were like, 552 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: that is so why we don't even know who those 553 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:49,439 Speaker 1: characters are. Um, So there is that aspect of it too. Ah. 554 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: There's a lot to unpack here, so many things. But 555 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: before we can do that, we have to take one 556 00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:12,319 Speaker 1: more break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. 557 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,919 Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. Uh And just some concluding thoughts. One 558 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: as promised, I wanted to touch on fan fiction for 559 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: a second. I would have talked about fan fiction if 560 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: I had another podcast, it would be just fan fiction. UM. 561 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 1: I have talked about how powerful it is. And most 562 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: people who write fan fiction are women, are young girls, queer, um, 563 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: from marginalized communities because they we were seeing this space 564 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: where we weren't being represented, so we went and made it. 565 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 1: And it gets mocked and derided and ridiculed. But I 566 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,959 Speaker 1: think it's this beautiful creative space. And so if you're 567 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: if you're shipping someone and it's not working out for you, 568 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: there's fan fiction for it. I guarantee you, and you 569 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: can always write write the fan fiction. Now, of course, 570 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: this isn't the same thing as seeing representation explicit representation 571 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: in the entertainment we consume um in movies and television 572 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: and books. But I just I feel like it's really 573 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 1: telling that we make fun of fan fiction and particularly 574 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: young women writing it, as if they're silly, and I mean, 575 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: the fearmongering around it, you wouldn't believe. It s like 576 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: there's like a panic around young girls writing fan fiction 577 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 1: and what does it mean in sexuality? And oh my god, 578 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 1: and um, I think that's very telling. Well, I mean, 579 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: we know Twilight began as fan fiction. Yes, it's a 580 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,959 Speaker 1: Harry Potter fan fiction, um, as well as it wasn't 581 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: fifty twos of great fan fiction. Yes. The most hilarious 582 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: thing about this to me is so Twilight was a 583 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,840 Speaker 1: Harry Potter fan fiction, right, and then fifty Shades of 584 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: Grays a Twilight fan fiction. And there was in fighting 585 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: between them, or at least I seemed to recall where 586 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: one of them was like, you can't do that. It's like, 587 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: that's what you did. And each has its own success 588 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: and also some they made a lot of money and 589 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: they made careers and you do you. At the same time, 590 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: there's this whole underlying idea of fear of sex and 591 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 1: fear of sexuality and it's both of those days. But whatever, 592 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: what not? Um, and you're right kind of one up 593 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,800 Speaker 1: to each other. I felt like, Yeah, it's funny. I 594 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: I have read so much fan fiction. There's sort of 595 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: lore about certain fan fictions, like there's fan fiction about 596 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: this fan fiction and I knew that one that got 597 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: turned into Twilight. I never read it, but I remember 598 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: seeing it. Everyone kind of knew about it. And then 599 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,760 Speaker 1: there's a whole like supernatural fan fiction universe for people 600 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,920 Speaker 1: have taken actors created in that universe and written about them. Um. 601 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: So well that was all Becky, Like she made a 602 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 1: career of being a fan fiction writer. Yeah, and that's 603 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,760 Speaker 1: actually easier to do than you might think. These days, 604 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: the copyright part can get interesting. Um. And I would 605 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: also say, because some people have been like, well, write 606 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 1: your own thing, Like, don't take someone else's idea. It's 607 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: a hobby. It's not like, you know, if you like 608 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: to play soccer, I'm not going to tell you we'll 609 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: go professional then like you're wasting your time. Um, it's 610 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: just it's a hobby. Inspiration comes from different things, and 611 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: why wouldn't it come from something that you love? Yes, 612 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: it's a beautiful transformed with space where fans get to 613 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: kind of play in the same sandbox. And it's nice 614 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 1: because you all start from that shared love of this thing, 615 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: and you don't have to explain the world. It's already 616 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 1: there and you could just go on. Um, although apparently 617 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,959 Speaker 1: you don't have control of your world. Know, the ending 618 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 1: is so tragic one my fan fiction. You you all, 619 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: I've gotten to the end while I haven't written it, 620 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: but I know how it ends, and it is the 621 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 1: saddest thing I've ever Wow, brutal Han and Luke will 622 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: never be happy together. Never um, which is kind of 623 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: a segue into that. My next point is, I do 624 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: think it's it's worth remembering that there's other loves than 625 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: romantic love, and I would love for us to see 626 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: that more in our media. Right For me, growing up 627 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: not having tons of boyfriends and relationships, I most loved 628 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: and treasured all of the books and or movies that 629 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: were about my friends. And of course it's not as 630 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: accepted with men unless you're being misogynistic together and being dumb. 631 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: It seems again that's a stereotype, but that's what the 632 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 1: big movie hits are. If you look at like Hangover 633 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: and all of those movies. But for me, like I 634 00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,439 Speaker 1: related the most. I think my all time favorite book 635 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 1: growing up was Just as Long as We're Together. So 636 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: it was a book written by Judy Bloom, which I 637 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,760 Speaker 1: loved because it was about three girls coming of age. 638 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: And of course I also loved it because it was 639 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 1: there was an Asian adopted child into this book and 640 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: I felt very, very very represented for the first time ever. 641 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: Um And it was one of my favorite things. And 642 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,359 Speaker 1: I loved that idea of friendship. And I think that's 643 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: why I loved the shows like Sex in the City. 644 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,319 Speaker 1: I really really clung to Now, there's so many problematic 645 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: things in that show, but really clung to those friendships 646 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,399 Speaker 1: and just the relationships that they had with each other 647 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 1: and knowing that they would be together like that was 648 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: the types of things that I loved because that's what 649 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: I related with most. Yeah, and it's unfortunate to see 650 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 1: that every time you see any relationship it has to 651 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: be romantic, no matter what, that somehow is being ruined 652 00:40:53,160 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: by romance everything. I'm just saying, yeah, and I the 653 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: we just need to see more, We need to see 654 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,879 Speaker 1: more platonic relationships and love, and we need to see 655 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,799 Speaker 1: relationships between queer people, groups of queer people, and then 656 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: queer people and straight people. There's a lot, there's a 657 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,320 Speaker 1: lot of things at play here. Um. And one other 658 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: thing I read in a lot of articles is it's 659 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: really difficult to know what a creator intended, and so 660 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: it's really hard and less the creator flat out says, 661 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: oh I never meant for this. Can it's hard to 662 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 1: say what they originally met. And there's also the aspect 663 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:46,240 Speaker 1: of that that who gets to own, like if if 664 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: if I want to see de c l like, is 665 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: that that my paracative? Um? And it's that explicit representation 666 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,839 Speaker 1: is very very important. But that comes up a lot 667 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: whether or not queer baiting is as big a thing 668 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: um on the argument around like some people think it 669 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: doesn't exist at all. Um. Right, I think where I've 670 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:16,840 Speaker 1: landed is it is this sort of like taunting of 671 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 1: I don't know tauntings right word, but of companies knowing 672 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: what they're doing but never intending to have that payoff. 673 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 1: So I remember when Solo, a Star Wars story, came out. 674 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: In the trailer, there was just like some shot that 675 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 1: made you think, oh Lando and Han are going to 676 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: get together and then you see the movie and you're like, no, 677 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: there's just nothing they're really other than Landover who have 678 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: sex with anybody, um or anything? Right, Millennium Falcon Uh 679 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: so that kind of thing, right. I feel like at 680 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: least somebody made a calculated decision to include that and 681 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 1: sort of get points for being more progressive and then 682 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,799 Speaker 1: had no intention of ever actually doing it right. And 683 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't until recently that we see healthy relationships instead 684 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 1: of the again the trope of a gay man obviously 685 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,400 Speaker 1: going after every heterosexual man and making this whole like 686 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,800 Speaker 1: predatory line, and you know, instead of seeing actual healthy 687 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: relationship once again, where you know, you see just friendship 688 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,319 Speaker 1: and it's uh, it's about time that we see that 689 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,319 Speaker 1: level and yeah, coming out as hey, yes these two 690 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,879 Speaker 1: are together. Yes these two discovered that they actually are 691 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: in love even though they didn't know it at the beginning. 692 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,400 Speaker 1: Why can't that happen instead of it being all hidden 693 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 1: and cloak and dag or type of situation? Right? And 694 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: I think I would go at least in my opinion, 695 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: when I think of creerbating, there is a level of 696 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: mocking to it too, like, oh, well, you're just reading 697 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,879 Speaker 1: too much into this, right, and then that could goes 698 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 1: straight into you just putting a gay person in there, 699 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 1: so he's going to be the gay sidekick. We're gonna 700 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:05,839 Speaker 1: a person of color in there, that's a person of color, 701 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: that's just a sidekick. She's just the byline um and 702 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,800 Speaker 1: obviously gets the secondary whatever. So if there's a guy, 703 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: you know, I love the stories where there's two guys 704 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,399 Speaker 1: and the guy who's the cast off goes with a 705 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: lesser friend. I don't love it. I'm being sarcastic, but 706 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, that's kind of that whole level, 707 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: and it's kind of like, uh, that was unnecessary and 708 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: it's not it's not necessarily what you want to see 709 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,399 Speaker 1: as a representation, and what what's the point of this? Right? 710 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,319 Speaker 1: And and I know we recently released the classic about 711 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 1: the barrier gaye trope, and a lot of that is 712 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: intertwined in this whole conversation of well, here's a gay relationship, 713 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: but it never ends happy happily one of them dies, 714 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,759 Speaker 1: and it's usually not has developed at all. I know 715 00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:00,040 Speaker 1: that one hundred ALEXA pledge that comes up and in 716 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: that conversation all the time. So that's also related to 717 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,919 Speaker 1: this of We'll give you this queer relationship, but only 718 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,719 Speaker 1: for a short time. It's not gonna end happily, right 719 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: enjoy Yeah yeah, be grateful. Uh yeah. So clearly a 720 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,960 Speaker 1: lot to say around this, a lot of debate happening, 721 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 1: which I think is good. I'm glad we're having those 722 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: conversations and we need to keep having them. Um And 723 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,840 Speaker 1: we would love for you listeners to share your thoughts 724 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: about any of this. Also, I would love any I'm 725 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,759 Speaker 1: somebody who, even though I don't ship things, I like 726 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 1: to find the most kind of out of I would 727 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: never pictured this couple together. I like. I like finding 728 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. So if you gotta have any 729 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 1: interesting ships you want to tell us about, please let 730 00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,400 Speaker 1: us know. You can email us at Stuff Media, mom 731 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: Stuff at i heeart media dot com. You can find 732 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at stuff I ever told you are 733 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks always to a 734 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks to you for listening. 735 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,320 Speaker 1: Stephane never told you this. Protection of I Heart Radio. 736 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio is the I Heart 737 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:11,839 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 738 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: favorite shows,