Speaker 1: Welcome. It could happen here a podcast about things following
Speaker 1: apart and putting the back together again. And today we're
Speaker 1: doing one of our I guess increasingly less rare but
Speaker 1: still sort of uncommon putting things back together again episodes,
Speaker 1: and with me today is Ted men from Amazonians United,
Speaker 1: to talk about different kinds of union union workers organizing
Speaker 1: UM and the work that you all have been doing.
Speaker 1: So Ted, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: So all right, one of the things that I wanted
Speaker 1: to talk about right off the bat is that Amazonians
Speaker 1: United is running a very very different kind of organization
Speaker 1: than a lot of the union efforts that we've talked
Speaker 1: about on the show, and a lot of the sort
Speaker 1: of like I guess, classical or sort of business union
Speaker 1: models stuff that that you know, we've we've we've we
Speaker 1: you know, than than what you see in the press,
Speaker 1: and then also that we've been covering. So I wanted
Speaker 1: to start off by asking you about solidarity unionism and
Speaker 1: how it sort of differs from other kinds of union
Speaker 1: organizations and campaigns. Sure, I think it's pretty simple. Actually,
Speaker 1: I think solidarity unionism is workers who believe in ourselves
Speaker 1: and by that I mean, it's workers recognizing that we
Speaker 1: don't need someone to save us UM when because we
Speaker 1: are the ones doing the work, we know how to
Speaker 1: run our workplaces, we know how to do it best,
Speaker 1: and we also deserve the wealth that we produce. So
Speaker 1: UM solidarity unionism to me is UH building organization with
Speaker 1: each other, where the fabric of our organization is our
Speaker 1: relationship and our solidarity as coworkers, engaging in struggle against UM, bosses, managers, owners, UM, everyone.
Speaker 1: That's that's telling us what to do while UH taking
Speaker 1: the lion's share of the wealth that we create. UM.
Speaker 1: And it's by uniting, coming together around issues that we
Speaker 1: care about, taking direct action in the workplace, UM building
Speaker 1: our confidence and our strength and our consciousness. UM and
Speaker 1: our organization to me a solidary unionism UM. It is
Speaker 1: distinctly different from business unionism, which is the dominant form
Speaker 1: mainstream unionism, you know, legalistic unionism, whatever you wanna call it, UM,
Speaker 1: that model that has been failing for several decades. UM
Speaker 1: actually is predicated on a deep distrust of workers, the
Speaker 1: disbelief that workers can organize ourselves, run our own workplaces,
Speaker 1: represent ourselves, defend ourselves and each other. Um. And in
Speaker 1: business union, I mean you know you you see the
Speaker 1: ads when they're posting, uh for union staff, job, come
Speaker 1: lead these workers, Come come join this union and lead.
Speaker 1: You're not even a worker in the workplace. Ho are
Speaker 1: you gonna lead someone in there? Like you know, you're
Speaker 1: you're a lawyer, you're you know, you have a different
Speaker 1: professional expertise. You're not moving the packages with us from
Speaker 1: inside with from within the warehouse and so UM. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's that's the main difference to me of
Speaker 1: the model. Do you are you a worker? Do you
Speaker 1: believe in workers? You trust and have faith that workers
Speaker 1: we ourselves can build our own organization, lead ourselves and um?
Speaker 1: And when or do you think workers need to be led,
Speaker 1: need to be represented, you need to be told what
Speaker 1: to do? Um need to pay you to go and
Speaker 1: say that? Um? And uh, Yeah, I believe in workers
Speaker 1: almost on a solidarity unions. Yeah. And I think we
Speaker 1: were talking a bit before the show about this, and
Speaker 1: I think there's there's a lot of aspects about this
Speaker 1: that are I think very powerful in you know, in
Speaker 1: in in in secacy economy that haven't been unionized. And
Speaker 1: I haven't our unions ever treated from our people who
Speaker 1: were never sort of organized and to begin with, And
Speaker 1: I think that's you know something that there's there's there's
Speaker 1: the there's this problem that happens like with with a
Speaker 1: lot of unions where you know, you you you get
Speaker 1: you get this sort of bereacratic structure that builds up,
Speaker 1: and the bereacratic structure that builds up like doesn't have
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have the same interests as the people in
Speaker 1: the UNI union. And that's a real problem. And you
Speaker 1: get these entrenched like you know, you can get these
Speaker 1: entrenched caucuses you control unions, and you get this the
Speaker 1: sort of pliferation of of these people. And I think
Speaker 1: this was this was part of why a lot of
Speaker 1: the sort of the anti union techniques that you saw
Speaker 1: in like the sort of anti union persias in the eighties,
Speaker 1: I mean you've been seeing them for a while. Like
Speaker 1: why they started working in the eighties was that, like
Speaker 1: you know, when when when when someone like starts ranting
Speaker 1: about union bureaucrats right like they're they're actually like there
Speaker 1: actually was a divide there, like there there there was
Speaker 1: a sort of like I guess like the like there
Speaker 1: there was a sort of like a kind of fundamental
Speaker 1: class difference, which I think has a lot I mean,
Speaker 1: also has a lot to do with you know, when
Speaker 1: when you get into your sort of like more more
Speaker 1: revolutionary context that that has to do with why a
Speaker 1: lot of unions when you know, Frances infamous for this,
Speaker 1: right like Franceais had these giant like comunist trade unions
Speaker 1: and every time a revolution started, the trade union just
Speaker 1: like sits there and does nothing. And yeah, and you
Speaker 1: have to sort of ask yourself like, because so why
Speaker 1: is this happening? And I think, yeah, soldier to unionism,
Speaker 1: it has it has a lot of answers to this
Speaker 1: sort of I guess you call it like that. There's
Speaker 1: there's a there's a sort of like right wing critique
Speaker 1: of unions that has to do with like, well, okay,
Speaker 1: so we don't want workers to organize, we don't want
Speaker 1: them to reflective power at all. But then there's also
Speaker 1: you know, but but the reason that it works in
Speaker 1: a lot of cases because it's able to tap into
Speaker 1: a sort of like into these structural problems that a
Speaker 1: lot of unions have. And I think so my understanding
Speaker 1: of how he always organizing has been going and correct
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong that I've been interested in is that, like,
Speaker 1: unlike a lot of other campaigns that you've seen, even
Speaker 1: specifically with Amazon, but like a lot of other the
Speaker 1: sort of the campaigns that are getting a lot of press, like,
Speaker 1: you're not active, Like your goal isn't to just get
Speaker 1: like recognition as a colected bargaining in it. Right. That's
Speaker 1: another key part of our key difference between solid or
Speaker 1: unionism business unionism. UM. In business unionism, you're you're. What
Speaker 1: defines you as a union is whether you are legally
Speaker 1: recognized by the state, by n l R b um,
Speaker 1: by the appointed government body. Um. That is the point
Speaker 1: at which the folks in these organizations like, are we
Speaker 1: a union or are we not? Okay, let's let's do
Speaker 1: an election. Let's follow all these rules that, by the way,
Speaker 1: we're designed to demobilize us century ago. But let's follow
Speaker 1: these rules. Let's try to fight in the courts UH
Speaker 1: to be recognized as a union. And then once we're
Speaker 1: a union, then we can fight for a legal contract
Speaker 1: that has benefited a lot of people in different ways.
Speaker 1: I'm not you know what I mean, like, but that
Speaker 1: approach is different than solidity unism, where It's like, we
Speaker 1: know our power is in the workplace, on the shop floor,
Speaker 1: where our power based on our unity and numbers as
Speaker 1: co workers. We see this when we walk out and
Speaker 1: within a month they give us a raise. Along would
Speaker 1: it have taken to get a raise if we went
Speaker 1: for an l ORB election. Yeah, what organization are we
Speaker 1: even building in that way? And so um our. Instead
Speaker 1: of seeking legal recognition and waging our uh uh struggle
Speaker 1: against bosses in the courts, we are choosing to wage
Speaker 1: engage in struggle in the shop floor where we are
Speaker 1: the experts, where we have the power, where we have
Speaker 1: the organization, where we are doing the work, where that
Speaker 1: is our home turf. Um, we have more power. They're like,
Speaker 1: it makes more sensitive build power where we have power,
Speaker 1: not in the institutions that were specifically designed to disempower
Speaker 1: us and give large employers upper hand. Um. All the
Speaker 1: different ways that they can manipulate how the votes happen,
Speaker 1: what is considered part of the voting unit, um, the
Speaker 1: contract negotiation process, I mean all of these legal hurdles.
Speaker 1: I mean, for the vast majority of workers, you'll need
Speaker 1: lawyers to be even understand how to engage in that world.
Speaker 1: That's not our world. It was not built for us
Speaker 1: to be in. It was built to control us. And
Speaker 1: so um, it just doesn't make logical sense to try
Speaker 1: to wage our struggle in that arena. We should be
Speaker 1: in waging it in the places that we work and
Speaker 1: so um. That Yeah, that's I think another core UM
Speaker 1: principal solidity unism like build power where we have it,
Speaker 1: um and that's the shop floor. Yeah, and I think,
Speaker 1: I mean that's something that I've seen like in when
Speaker 1: I was in college. There there's a big dress you
Speaker 1: need and organization campaign and it kind of they had
Speaker 1: this huge problem which was that Okay, well they were
Speaker 1: trying to do they were trying to get a National
Speaker 1: Labor Relations Board like vote under Trump. But they couldn't
Speaker 1: do it because if you know, because because the National
Speaker 1: Labor Relations Board was controlled by just like the even
Speaker 1: even by National Labor Relations Board standards like like just
Speaker 1: unbelievably anti union, like viscerally anti worker forces. It was like, well,
Speaker 1: if we try to get a vote, like there's a
Speaker 1: chance they could just you know, like literally destroy the
Speaker 1: right like destroy the organizing rights of all grad students
Speaker 1: of the country. And yeah, and you get you get
Speaker 1: that with the Nissan election or something like that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and definitely delayed it. Yeah, and it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I think this this is a trap that
Speaker 1: like a lot of people, even even people who are
Speaker 1: really highly organized like get stuck in where you know,
Speaker 1: and the like. Eventually, uh, the grand students just like
Speaker 1: essentially it's just started doing walkouts because that was you know,
Speaker 1: that that was the thing they could do when they
Speaker 1: start doing their own strikes until they weren't like legally recognized,
Speaker 1: because that was the thing that you could do to
Speaker 1: you know, actually fight in a terrain that wasn't just
Speaker 1: inherently rigged against you. So okay, so you've you've you've
Speaker 1: you've decided to take to take a fight in the workplace,
Speaker 1: like on the shop floor where where you're where you're
Speaker 1: at your strongest. What does that actually look like in
Speaker 1: terms of actions, in terms of organization. Yeah, honestly, I
Speaker 1: think it's simpler and more rudimentary. Um then one might
Speaker 1: think or that you might read about and you know,
Speaker 1: an academic article or something analyzing or I think it
Speaker 1: comes down to comes down to building community, comes down
Speaker 1: to building culture and the principles of the community and
Speaker 1: culture that you build together with their coworkers is one
Speaker 1: where we value ourselves and each other. We respect ourselves
Speaker 1: and each other, and that means that we fight for
Speaker 1: what is fair in the workplace. That means that we
Speaker 1: maintain integrity. Any time a boss disrespects one of us,
Speaker 1: we need to confront it. We we need to address it. Uh.
Speaker 1: If not immediately, uh soon after. In numbers, UM, it
Speaker 1: means if we're getting overworked and underpaid, then we need
Speaker 1: to strategize and figure out how do we how do
Speaker 1: we compel the employer to stop overworking and underpaying us,
Speaker 1: How do we hit them in a place that they
Speaker 1: are forced to respe spect and um as it goes
Speaker 1: in the world we are today, it's always the numbers,
Speaker 1: It's always the money, it's always the profit. So UM
Speaker 1: what that means on the day to day, I mean
Speaker 1: m Amazon warehouses are a very isolating place. UM. Amazon
Speaker 1: has basically uh gigified warehouse work. You know, it's like
Speaker 1: the uber for warehouse where you can pick up shifts,
Speaker 1: you can you know, extra shifts, you can take uh
Speaker 1: furlough days, you know, called them videos. UM. Many warehouses
Speaker 1: like you're you're work the ten twelve hour shift and
Speaker 1: you're for that entire time you're near one or two
Speaker 1: people max. Because they're spaced out and it's loud, and
Speaker 1: there's machinery and your packing boxes and and so UM.
Speaker 1: On top of that, you know that everyday dehumanizing. It's
Speaker 1: also um, you're pushed to work faster and faster. UM.
Speaker 1: It's difficult to have you know, deep human and direction
Speaker 1: when you're busting your ass moving you know, thirty to
Speaker 1: forty five pound packages as quickly as you can. UM.
Speaker 1: And so the day to day of building and fighting
Speaker 1: in the workplace, building community means uh. For example, every
Speaker 1: week we have a potluck during lunch, bring coworkers together,
Speaker 1: new coworkers that you know someone could start last week.
Speaker 1: That's something that we hear a lot. You know. Part
Speaker 1: of the challenge, it's the turnover is so high? How
Speaker 1: can you possibly organized turnover so high? UM. That is
Speaker 1: a specific weapon that boss is used against us. High
Speaker 1: turnover means what it means we frequently have new coworkers,
Speaker 1: harder to build relationship and organization. It means that the
Speaker 1: job feels more precarious, so people are always uh afraid
Speaker 1: that will lose our job. You know, we could get fired.
Speaker 1: We could uh they could change uh staffing numbers that
Speaker 1: could close warehouses. It create you know, as a tool
Speaker 1: higher turnover. They just they turned through workers. Okay, who
Speaker 1: who's willing to do the most work for the lowest
Speaker 1: pay and sacrifice the most of their body? Okay? If
Speaker 1: if you can't handle it, then you quit. If you can,
Speaker 1: then you stay in here. Okay, let's find the workers
Speaker 1: in society that are most able to you know, produce
Speaker 1: the most that so on and so forth and so
Speaker 1: basic things you know, having every day. Uh. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: just like talking with your coworkers is something that is
Speaker 1: that they try to keep you from doing in the workplace,
Speaker 1: And by engaging conversation, you're already resisting that isolation, already resisting. UM.
Speaker 1: Boss is trying to just control everything, keep everyone divided.
Speaker 1: So weekly pot lunches, UM having meetings inside or outside
Speaker 1: of the workplace, coming together, what are the issues that
Speaker 1: we care about? UM? How do we bring how do
Speaker 1: we build more unity around these issues that we know
Speaker 1: many people care about. Isn't doing a petition people sign
Speaker 1: on together? Are we delivering the petition? And the group. Um.
Speaker 1: If the management doesn't respond, it doesn't give us a
Speaker 1: reasonable response. How do we escalate? Do we need to
Speaker 1: walk out? Do we need to take other action? UM?
Speaker 1: Any time we see a manager disres disrespecting a coworker, UM,
Speaker 1: how do we post up next to them, pull out
Speaker 1: a notepads, start taking notes? Ask questions? UM, we're a witness,
Speaker 1: you know. How do we defend each other in all
Speaker 1: of these basic ways? How are we addressing um and
Speaker 1: being honest with ourselves and each other? Of uh? Just
Speaker 1: the depth of disrespect when they're waiting for us outside
Speaker 1: of the bathrooms to write us out for time off pass,
Speaker 1: when they're telling us to work faster when you know
Speaker 1: we're already on a ten hour shift. We're on our
Speaker 1: ten of the ten hour shift. They sent a bunch
Speaker 1: of people home and are forcing us to finish all
Speaker 1: the work for a small number of people. Do we
Speaker 1: continue putting up with it or do we immediately walk out?
Speaker 1: Or do we talk to their co works about what
Speaker 1: we want to do? Just being mindful of being honest
Speaker 1: about what how we are being treated, what is fair,
Speaker 1: what is not and taking the necessary action to UH
Speaker 1: demand the the fairness, the respect that each of that deserves.
Speaker 1: I think, like that's what the workplace struggle looks like. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't. Yeah, And I think it comes down to
Speaker 1: building that community with each other and then building the
Speaker 1: culture of not putting up with bullshit, defending each other,
Speaker 1: looking out for each other. Um, there's them, there's an US, UM,
Speaker 1: make sure you know whatside you're on UM, and you know,
Speaker 1: I think that's the that's the foundation of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that the aspect, especially of culture building is
Speaker 1: really interesting to me because I think that's something that's
Speaker 1: not really talked about much with with with the organizing
Speaker 1: efforts in both because you know, a lot of like
Speaker 1: a lot of book is discussed with you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's especially in academic circles when when when you're when
Speaker 1: you're just you know, when when when you have people
Speaker 1: writing about union organizing, and when even when sort of
Speaker 1: like other union organizers are writing about unions, is that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't hear much about the cultural aspects, and you
Speaker 1: don't hear much about just resisting the actual like psychological
Speaker 1: degradation that you get. And that strikes me I think
Speaker 1: also as as yeah, as as you've been saying struct
Speaker 1: something that's that's very important, not discussed enough as I
Speaker 1: mean both says just something that that is a goal
Speaker 1: in itself, like not having this sort of you know,
Speaker 1: not not having the just sort of horrible de meeting
Speaker 1: and abusive sort of tyranny of the boss is just
Speaker 1: like existing as this kind of like normal force. But
Speaker 1: then also like yeah, that destructing something that is really
Speaker 1: important for anyone who's who's thinking about organizing, is you know,
Speaker 1: getting getting people, getting people to organize around just like
Speaker 1: howe getting people to organize around just this the sort
Speaker 1: of like the psychological decordation, like I think is really
Speaker 1: important because otherwise, you know, you get you can get
Speaker 1: you can just get these cultures where like I mean,
Speaker 1: I remember I had a job where I was in
Speaker 1: like we had a union, but like it didn't I
Speaker 1: mean I was so I was I was at temp
Speaker 1: workers where I wasn't in the union, like they had
Speaker 1: a union, and it just sort of didn't do anything,
Speaker 1: and no one like you and this this is a
Speaker 1: real source and sort of right reing resentment because the
Speaker 1: union just didn't do anything, and then you know everyone's
Speaker 1: getting treated terribly like by by the bosses and by
Speaker 1: sort upper management and no one. But it never even
Speaker 1: like it never really like is on a culture level,
Speaker 1: never occurred to them to sort of like use the
Speaker 1: union for that, because that's not really what the union
Speaker 1: was there for. It was just the sort of like
Speaker 1: it was just this thing that existed, and like occasionally
Speaker 1: when contracts came up, it would pier and I guess,
Speaker 1: on on On that note, one of the things I
Speaker 1: was also wondering is what sort of so for for
Speaker 1: for for people who are who are interested in their
Speaker 1: own workplaces and starting doing this kind of organizing and
Speaker 1: starting to sort of, i mean just fight back against
Speaker 1: their bosses in ways that don't you know, either because
Speaker 1: they don't want to or because they literally can't, which
Speaker 1: I think is is true of a lot of people
Speaker 1: like who who want to organize outside of the business
Speaker 1: neion model. How how do you how did you all
Speaker 1: start organizing like this? And what what sort of immediate
Speaker 1: lessons do you think people should should take away and
Speaker 1: should sort of bring in bring into their own organizing
Speaker 1: in the workplace. Yeah, um, I think at the base
Speaker 1: of the is the um I guess I mentioned something
Speaker 1: like this earlier, but that we we can organize ourselves.
Speaker 1: We can. You know, if you're talking if you have
Speaker 1: two co workers that you're friends with, and UM, you
Speaker 1: say like, hey, let's meet up and talk about what's
Speaker 1: going on at work, you're starting to organize, you know. UM.
Speaker 1: And I think part of part of the damage, part
Speaker 1: of the harm that business unionism has done. And also
Speaker 1: just I don't know, hierarchical organizing Umlinsky and organizing UM.
Speaker 1: I think they're all part of uh sort of connected
Speaker 1: school of thought where it's like organizing and you know,
Speaker 1: building a union is something that like you need to
Speaker 1: be like professionals to or you know, they're experts at
Speaker 1: it U experts and then if you're not an expert,
Speaker 1: then you need to consultant expert figure out how to
Speaker 1: do it UM. And I think that's bullshit. I think
Speaker 1: it's if you're a worker, then uh, you can be
Speaker 1: a union organizer. If you're a worker and you talk
Speaker 1: with you know, another worker about what's going on in
Speaker 1: your workplace, like you're already starting to organize. UM. Like
Speaker 1: I said earlier, if you're calling a meeting, if you're
Speaker 1: you know, and and workers do this all the time
Speaker 1: confronting management about this respect you know, I think it's
Speaker 1: very much more frequently on an individual basis. But it's
Speaker 1: a matter of like connecting your issue with a couple
Speaker 1: other coworkers and then figure out, Okay, well, um, what
Speaker 1: what's our next step? But we need more numbers? How
Speaker 1: do we you know, how do we build more numbers? Uh?
Speaker 1: If each of us can invite one more person, that
Speaker 1: six people, if you know, if the six of us
Speaker 1: can are starting a petition, we could probably get you know,
Speaker 1: signature is a fifty or sixty, you know, like it's
Speaker 1: it's step by step and saying if we want to
Speaker 1: build organization, we can do it from the bottom up.
Speaker 1: We can start it um and we can figure this out.
Speaker 1: I mean, every even within the same company, even within
Speaker 1: the same company in the same city there you know,
Speaker 1: I work at UM a delivery station, Engage Park, other
Speaker 1: delivery stations in the city of Chicago have a completely
Speaker 1: different culture, you know, the neighborhood that it's in the
Speaker 1: workers that are the bosses, you know, And so even
Speaker 1: in the same company, the same type of workplace in
Speaker 1: the same city, it's gonna be a different story for
Speaker 1: how that workplace is gonna you know, get united, come together, UM,
Speaker 1: figure things out, build organization, and it's just anyone there
Speaker 1: that is thinking about that that that kind of just
Speaker 1: begins the process of putting together. They six, all right,
Speaker 1: we need to start building up some numbers. We need
Speaker 1: to start having, you know, addressing some issues that people
Speaker 1: care about. And there's always i mean, there's always the
Speaker 1: you know, overworked and underpaid, and that's gonna exist everywhere.
Speaker 1: You can always go after those issues, but frequently there
Speaker 1: are small ones like our first issue was a water
Speaker 1: petition uh or or or or at was access to
Speaker 1: water UM, and this is how we started as an
Speaker 1: organization UM. Basically, they were taking away bottled water. They
Speaker 1: said we were leaving around too much garbage. They're saying
Speaker 1: bottled water is only there for the summer, and now
Speaker 1: that's not the summer. That whatever. They're trying to save
Speaker 1: a few dollars a day on bottled water to make
Speaker 1: us you know, work without it UM, And we said,
Speaker 1: that's fucked up. We're doing warehouse work like this, hard
Speaker 1: manual labor, and it's hot in here. We need a
Speaker 1: bottle water. It's you know, not just that broken, unfiltered
Speaker 1: fountain across the warehouse that you can't even get to
Speaker 1: while you're working. Um. And so, uh, just a few
Speaker 1: of us that we're talking at break it was like, okay,
Speaker 1: well there's six of us here. Well we're kind of
Speaker 1: you know, this is the this is the break room
Speaker 1: at work. They're like managers walking around their cameras in here,
Speaker 1: like let's meet outside, uh and figure this out. UM.
Speaker 1: So you know, we we met at a at a
Speaker 1: Crispy Cream down on like ninety third um, and uh
Speaker 1: we just basically said like, well, how are we gonna
Speaker 1: get this water? We've been asking management? Uh you know
Speaker 1: they've given us the same reasons. We need to do
Speaker 1: something bigger that that they can't ignore. Um, how about
Speaker 1: a petition? And so we just drafted it. The six
Speaker 1: of us we drafted it. We went around. We got
Speaker 1: hundred fifty signatures I think from our coworkers are just
Speaker 1: like basic commands. We need bottled water stocked every day.
Speaker 1: They need to be you know, filters need to be clean.
Speaker 1: We need to get a be able to take a
Speaker 1: break to get this water. Um. And we delivered uh,
Speaker 1: the hundred fifty signatures to management. UM. I think it
Speaker 1: was within thirty or forty minutes, they drove to a
Speaker 1: grocery store or bought you know, went to the nearest
Speaker 1: pizza bought every case a bottle. Why they have brought
Speaker 1: it and passed it out to everyone. We're like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: like that was you know, people like that's just hey,
Speaker 1: we gotta do a petition for this thing. We gotta
Speaker 1: do you know what this thing? Probably it was that
Speaker 1: I don't want to say easy, because it's definitely not
Speaker 1: easy to like. But the steps, the step by step
Speaker 1: of like how do you begin, how do you get
Speaker 1: something started? How do you start building some immunity? Um,
Speaker 1: These are steps that we have taken. These are you know,
Speaker 1: what we think is can be applicable UM with everyone's
Speaker 1: own kind of personal tweaks based on you know, your
Speaker 1: own workplace. UM, to start getting something going from more coworkers,
Speaker 1: to start realizing, oh yeah, like we should be in
Speaker 1: more control of what's happening around here because we're the
Speaker 1: ones that are doing all the work. We're the ones
Speaker 1: that are suffering the most from it in our bodies,
Speaker 1: getting ground down from doing it. And so um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that I think I look back to a
Speaker 1: previous question do but like how we started, how you
Speaker 1: engage in the struggle and just like what that looks
Speaker 1: like for building building something up from nothing to something
Speaker 1: like that's what that's what we you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: that's what we did. Yeah, from from what I've seen,
Speaker 1: you all have been extremely effective like at at getting
Speaker 1: management to recognize it, but essentially getting them to like
Speaker 1: a seed to your demands because like this this this
Speaker 1: kind of organizing like solidity unied what what I'm trying
Speaker 1: to say, it's all there to unist works like it's
Speaker 1: not like like and you know and yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: a thing. I think one of one of the things
Speaker 1: you're talking about is like, yeah, it's like when like
Speaker 1: when you win even on something fairly small, right, and
Speaker 1: you can show people that this works and that like
Speaker 1: you know, if if, if, if you actually come together
Speaker 1: on something, you can force management to do stuff like
Speaker 1: I think that also become becomes an important sort of
Speaker 1: like I don't know if catalysts is the right word,
Speaker 1: but it becomes it becomes becomes an engine that like
Speaker 1: feeds itself definitely, I mean, especially for a big company
Speaker 1: like Amazon, like I think the most common perspective, at
Speaker 1: least at the start, is like such a big company,
Speaker 1: like what could we possibly do? They have a thousand warehouses,
Speaker 1: like what you know, they could choose to close one
Speaker 1: and open another one. You know, they do this, or
Speaker 1: they could suddenly you know, and with two weeks notice
Speaker 1: like change the schedule from an evening time to overnight time,
Speaker 1: which is what they did to us. Basically, um, what
Speaker 1: can we possibly do? And so you know, but I
Speaker 1: think it's like the moment, it's like there's uh on
Speaker 1: a cliff or what do you call, like the watershed
Speaker 1: a point, like the moment you kind of take that
Speaker 1: first collective action and then get what you want. Um.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh wait, it's not as like within this
Speaker 1: space like we can actually make our lives a lot
Speaker 1: better pretty quickly. Yeah, we just come together and do
Speaker 1: it ourselves and recognize the power that we have. UM.
Speaker 1: And I think it's like hmm. That's one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why it works so well is because it is
Speaker 1: different from the mainstream approach, which UM bosses and these
Speaker 1: companies understand very well and can easily maneuver around, such as,
Speaker 1: oh if we do if if one of our managers
Speaker 1: does something wrong. What will happen next is well, receive
Speaker 1: one of our lawyer as we'll receive a grievance from
Speaker 1: one of their representative lawyers, and you know, this business union,
Speaker 1: we'll have this many months respond and then we can
Speaker 1: do this and then you know, uh, we'll do this
Speaker 1: paperwork and have this legal back and forth and then
Speaker 1: maybe we'll address this issue six to twelve months down
Speaker 1: the line. UM, no disruption, you know, nothing to worry about. UM,
Speaker 1: Let the bosses run amuck and we'll get a six
Speaker 1: to twelve month at start to you know, and maybe
Speaker 1: get a slap on the wrist and a fixed wherever
Speaker 1: you need to or pay small fine. UM as opposed
Speaker 1: to that's business units, like as opposed to Southern unism,
Speaker 1: where it's like they just disrespected us in a way
Speaker 1: that like we're not trying to put up with, Like
Speaker 1: we are hurting. We can't even finish the shift without
Speaker 1: hurting ourselves more. We're just gonna group up the walk
Speaker 1: out right now. UM, they're gonna figure out, they're gonna
Speaker 1: have to figure out how to get the rest of
Speaker 1: these packages out without us, UM, and when we come
Speaker 1: back tomorrow, Uh, we'll see, we'll see if they want
Speaker 1: to keep treating us the same way. UM. And so
Speaker 1: it's like to me, you know, we we've had basic
Speaker 1: basic management confrontations where either immediately uh you know, they
Speaker 1: were understaffing and we grouped up rolled into the office
Speaker 1: just like with seven of us, not even like the
Speaker 1: whole shift. Um, seven out of fifty people rolling office,
Speaker 1: and you have too few people on the lines. You
Speaker 1: you need an add extra person. We've been asking you
Speaker 1: have it. Um, We've folded our arms within five minutes
Speaker 1: to send an extra person over there. They're working the
Speaker 1: rest of the shift. UM. In the in the business
Speaker 1: union approach, like I don't even know, Like how do
Speaker 1: you follow you know, understaffing grievance? Like what are the details?
Speaker 1: How does that happen? Does a union representative have to
Speaker 1: be contacted and then negotiate in some way? Um? But
Speaker 1: that like, let's just address this right now and fix it. UM.
Speaker 1: I don't want to wait for some outside activity. Let's
Speaker 1: just improve our working conditions right now, like confronting and
Speaker 1: addressing it. UM. I think it just you know that's
Speaker 1: something that Um, the bosses are left, it's less predictable
Speaker 1: for them. It's less in their control, it's less in
Speaker 1: their wheelhouse. Um, and I think that's a prey reason
Speaker 1: why it works better. Yeah, And I think one of
Speaker 1: one of the things the thing this reminds me of.
Speaker 1: It reminds me of the kind of stuff that unions
Speaker 1: used to do when they were strong. Like it reminds
Speaker 1: me of like, yeah, you're you're like c I O,
Speaker 1: like sit down, strike, right, It's like, well, okay, if
Speaker 1: if the manager or something we didn't we don't like
Speaker 1: so one blows a whizzle, everyone sits down, and like
Speaker 1: it's like it's that that kind of not just sort
Speaker 1: of like way to go to the legal channels, but
Speaker 1: just just like im immediately taking action is like it's
Speaker 1: it's something that it's like it's it's something that worked,
Speaker 1: and it's you know like that that's that's the kind
Speaker 1: of stuff that like build the built the original like
Speaker 1: labor movement. And it's really interesting to me that, like
Speaker 1: because because I think there's a lot of like I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people look back at that era
Speaker 1: sort of like nostalgically and go like, well, Okay, if
Speaker 1: unions were stronger, we could do this, but like that's
Speaker 1: not really true, you you can't actually just like like
Speaker 1: you can do the same things that like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're like nineteen thirties c I O was doing like
Speaker 1: and and and if you know, and you don't you
Speaker 1: don't need the kind of institutional backing that that those
Speaker 1: people had. If if like if if you're organized enough
Speaker 1: in in your in your specific location, I think that's
Speaker 1: a really interesting I don't know, I'm purious if you
Speaker 1: agree with it, seems like it's kind of interesting lesson
Speaker 1: about like what happens to the labor movement, where like
Speaker 1: the more the more you get into this sort of
Speaker 1: like okay, well, the the union is now two lawyers
Speaker 1: sitting down with each other, right the what what you're
Speaker 1: doing basically is and then like this is this is
Speaker 1: this is explicitly what the National Labor Relations Act was, right, Like,
Speaker 1: it was an attempt to get labor, labor and capital
Speaker 1: sit down at the table and stop fighting so that
Speaker 1: they could like you know, basically seleft production could go on,
Speaker 1: and like some sometimes sometimes that that you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: I favor the union. Right, sometimes you'd have the president
Speaker 1: be like like the actual like US president would be like, okay,
Speaker 1: you come you like steal company. You have to like
Speaker 1: give workers what they're asking for because steel production shut down, right,
Speaker 1: But like, you know, the problem with that is that
Speaker 1: it's based on like it's based on at all costs
Speaker 1: trying to sort of preserve like it's based on cost
Speaker 1: like trying to preserve the labor piece. And you know,
Speaker 1: I mean there's reasons for that too, Like yeah, like
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna like like obviously there's there's any time
Speaker 1: you take a direct action, there's a risk, and yeah,
Speaker 1: like I'm not gonna like, you know, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: be like like it's it's hard to be really mad
Speaker 1: at people who don't want to go on strike because
Speaker 1: they don't like because you know, how how am I
Speaker 1: going to feed my family? Etcetera, etcetera. But like, you know,
Speaker 1: bringing like having that kind of militancy in the workplace,
Speaker 1: just you know, without without any kind of formal recognition,
Speaker 1: I think is an extremely powerful tactic. And is I
Speaker 1: mean literally how the original labor movement like got built.
Speaker 1: It's difficult, though, and it can be yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's like I think you you posed kind of
Speaker 1: the question or or or kind of questioning the idea
Speaker 1: like where did how did the labor movement get to
Speaker 1: where it's at if the origins were more conscious UM,
Speaker 1: in the ways that you've been describing UM. I think that. UM.
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's definitely you know, the risk is
Speaker 1: always there. You're always confronting the power. I mean in
Speaker 1: the workplace. When it comes down to it like that,
Speaker 1: obviously the power dynamics shift, and it's more complex than
Speaker 1: you know, bosses have more power than workers unless workers
Speaker 1: organized and workers have more power than bosses. That is true.
Speaker 1: And also for example, on the day to day, you know,
Speaker 1: the boss can fire anyone and then you're you know,
Speaker 1: however you end up dealing with it. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: you could be out anywhere between two or twenty paychecks
Speaker 1: until something is resolved legally or even through direct Actually,
Speaker 1: there's obviously very directly oppressive our dynamic there. UM. And
Speaker 1: I think that UM. To speak truth to power, to
Speaker 1: directly confronted UM, of course, it's frightening. I mean I
Speaker 1: would be lying if you know, like I'm I'm you know,
Speaker 1: talking on this on this podcast about doing this and
Speaker 1: yeah we're doing this, and like you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna pretend that like when we were even when we
Speaker 1: were in a forty person mass, you know, confronting management,
Speaker 1: addressing that everyone together, it's still like, you know, there's
Speaker 1: there's there's still this power dynamic here and we're punching
Speaker 1: up like it's a punch, but like we're punging up
Speaker 1: to someone that's like a big, heavier um adversary, and
Speaker 1: so it's like they could swing back to like you
Speaker 1: gotta gotta be ready to and so UM. I think
Speaker 1: that what I'm describing on a kind of like face
Speaker 1: to face and the personal that moment in the workplace,
Speaker 1: I think on a broader scale also exists where it's
Speaker 1: like waging an extended you know, organizing struggle to be
Speaker 1: fighting this fight millions of times in many different ways,
Speaker 1: and then continually trying to bring people together. You know,
Speaker 1: people move on because everything that's happening in life. They
Speaker 1: got evicted from their place, so they had to move
Speaker 1: to a different place far away. Okay, suddenly they had
Speaker 1: to leave a job and they were someone that was
Speaker 1: contributing a lot to the organizing. Something happened. Someone has
Speaker 1: a family member that uh, you know that they need
Speaker 1: to spend a little bit more time with Um, everything
Speaker 1: that's happening, everything that's making you know, reduced seeing our
Speaker 1: time as working people to take care of ourselves and
Speaker 1: each other, like all of this, we're fighting against all
Speaker 1: of this, and um, they're definitely ups and downs. They're
Speaker 1: definitely times it was like thing like where you know,
Speaker 1: and then it seems I get times, Uh, all of
Speaker 1: the struggles and life like it's like you take like
Speaker 1: two steps forward and then two steps backwards. Get it.
Speaker 1: And so you know, there's definitely a difficult reality permitting everything.
Speaker 1: You know, all of the organizing wins, the advance that
Speaker 1: we're talking about. We need to be fully honest about
Speaker 1: that and also recognize that there's still like nothing more.
Speaker 1: There's like nothing more beautiful powerful, There's there's no there's
Speaker 1: nothing that feels better than that moment when you when
Speaker 1: the power dynamic was like this and you pull something
Speaker 1: off and it's like yeah, I was like, oh, like
Speaker 1: you you just did what we wanted you know and
Speaker 1: more and then now like you're being real careful with us,
Speaker 1: like we we change things here, like our lives are
Speaker 1: better concretely, um, and we made it happen, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I think those are like celebrating the winds
Speaker 1: and like taking joy, not always thinking so far, Okay,
Speaker 1: we've got more to go. Yeah, they're always there's always
Speaker 1: more of that. Um. We can and have to be building.
Speaker 1: And let's make sure that we're taking the time to recognize,
Speaker 1: um and celebrate each of the steps that we are
Speaker 1: um advancing, so that you know, we we don't get
Speaker 1: lost in you know, assuming in the cycle of like
Speaker 1: seeking permanent, infinite growth and organizing and being constantly stressed
Speaker 1: out about it, rather than like taking those breathers, taking
Speaker 1: those moments. Okay, like let's take this and strive, let's
Speaker 1: do this and stay. That's not burnout. Um. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that's all part of figuring out how to how
Speaker 1: to how to make it happen. Yeah, And I think
Speaker 1: that's that's important. I think that that that's an important
Speaker 1: thing to understand with any kind of organizing, which is
Speaker 1: that like yeah, if if if you like if if
Speaker 1: if if, there's never sort of a moment in which
Speaker 1: you're reflecting on or or just celebrating like that the
Speaker 1: goals that you've actually accomplished, Right, you're just gonna sort
Speaker 1: of be endlessly bashing your head against the wall. And
Speaker 1: you know that this is this is like yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean this is this is sort of a burnout machine.
Speaker 1: This is a a way that you know, it's something
Speaker 1: that also just sort of feeds despair, which is that yeah,
Speaker 1: like you know, like yeah, okay, your your victory is
Speaker 1: a small victory, but it is a real one. And
Speaker 1: that's that's something that even in the face of sort
Speaker 1: of like the Cyclopean horror of like just the world
Speaker 1: that we're living in, like no, your your small victories
Speaker 1: due lead up to bigger ones and yeah, and you know,
Speaker 1: and getting people to lose sight of that is a
Speaker 1: like it' it's it made your way. The system is
Speaker 1: held together by just sort of like manufacturing hopelessness, even
Speaker 1: when there there there are reasons for hope, and there
Speaker 1: are reasons to sort of look at what you've done
Speaker 1: and go, hey, we we won this thing. Definitely, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's a I guess unexpectedly cheery for this
Speaker 1: show not to end on Do you have anything else? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think we touched on a lot um.
Speaker 1: I guess I have a usual pits or some version
Speaker 1: of it um. But I think, uh, maybe something to
Speaker 1: bring together different elements that we touched on and bringing
Speaker 1: some of the sure really hopefulness and also put out
Speaker 1: some encouragement too. I think now is a time where
Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of uncertainty and I'm uh, you know,
Speaker 1: definitely and a global week to week or year to
Speaker 1: year scale, but also on an individual level. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of individuals right now, UM likely those that
Speaker 1: are listening UM that that end up listening to this
Speaker 1: or UM those that are like seeing what's happening around
Speaker 1: the world, is like, what is my role in all
Speaker 1: of this? What am I trying to do? Different people
Speaker 1: are joining different organizations and and and trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how they should be living their lives, what the
Speaker 1: what principles they should be living out, how they should
Speaker 1: be applying themselves to for example, UM, combat and dismantle
Speaker 1: UM I don't know, uh capitalism and and and uh
Speaker 1: you know, prison industrial complex and reverse climate destruction and
Speaker 1: and find fascism everything all of existential threats that we face.
Speaker 1: It's like, what, you know, what is my role? And
Speaker 1: I think, UM, if if you at all have the
Speaker 1: capacity and curiosity, UM two engage in some of this
Speaker 1: deep work yourself for building community relationships, culture among UM.
Speaker 1: You know, just with workers, build building your own organization,
Speaker 1: building your own acts of resistance, building your own forms
Speaker 1: of of of you know, own forms of reclaiming your
Speaker 1: time and minds and bodies, and build something beautiful that
Speaker 1: can you know, be part of a broader movement that
Speaker 1: that you know, lifts up working people, that kind of
Speaker 1: gets back what we are building and what we what
Speaker 1: we deserve. UM. You know, think about think about the
Speaker 1: logistics industry, think about warehouse work, UM, think about joining
Speaker 1: in UM and UH, you know it's uh it's hard work.
Speaker 1: It's hard manual labor, it's hard mental and emotional work. UM.
Speaker 1: But I think this is the future of what the winning,
Speaker 1: fighting uh successful movement UM will need. UM. And I
Speaker 1: think many people engaging and building more genuine, more worker focus,
Speaker 1: worker centered, worker run uh stolidarity unions of our own
Speaker 1: democratic horizontal bottom up UM. I think building this way
Speaker 1: and connecting with each other, I think this is the
Speaker 1: way forward. I think this is the examples that we need.
Speaker 1: We need more people engaging in this work. We need
Speaker 1: more uh more of that attention, energy and focus, Like
Speaker 1: how do we build the real stuff? UM, that's gonna
Speaker 1: be the powerful organizational influence to transform society and and
Speaker 1: avert these forms of extinction and continued extraction, exploitation, oppression
Speaker 1: of all of us. UM, join us, Join, join the struggle,
Speaker 1: get get some of these jobs. Talk to your co workers,
Speaker 1: build something that. It's really that simple. UM. And uh yeah,
Speaker 1: that's my that's my every day pitch. UM. So, if
Speaker 1: if people want to find Amazonians United specifically, where where
Speaker 1: where can they find y'all? UM? So in Chicago. So
Speaker 1: Amazonians United Chicago Land, UM is our name. We have
Speaker 1: a Facebook page, we have a Twitter. UM. Those are
Speaker 1: probably where we're most active. UM, and where you can
Speaker 1: follow and get into contact with us, Tweet out us,
Speaker 1: message us on Facebook. UM. If you're really so inclined, UM,
Speaker 1: you can email us at a you Chicago land at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. UM. But otherwise, yeah, just look up,
Speaker 1: you know, follow our social media. You'll see what we
Speaker 1: post occasionally about what's going on. UM. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: feel free to reach out, get into contact, ask any
Speaker 1: questions you might have, UM, and you know, let's connect,
Speaker 1: let's build community. Yeah. And that's that's a Chicagoland at
Speaker 1: a Chicago Land on Twitter by the way. Yeah. UM, yeah,
Speaker 1: sweet uh ted, thank you, thank you so thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining me. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's really great. Um yeah, if you want to find
Speaker 1: us at you can find us at happen Here pod
Speaker 1: on Twitter, Instagram, and cool Zone Media in the same places.
Speaker 1: Um yeah, go go, go organize with your coworkers, go
Speaker 1: do cool things, go be do well better place. Yes, yes, yes, sure,
Speaker 1: um yeah, thank you, thank you. It could Happen Here
Speaker 1: as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from cool zone Media, visit our website cool zone media
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening.