WEBVTT - Amazonians United and Solidarity Unionism 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.480 Welcome. It could happen here a podcast about things following 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:10.920 apart and putting the back together again. And today we're 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:14.800 doing one of our I guess increasingly less rare but 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.880 still sort of uncommon putting things back together again episodes, 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:21.239 and with me today is Ted men from Amazonians United, 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:25.640 to talk about different kinds of union union workers organizing 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:28.200 UM and the work that you all have been doing. 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.520 So Ted, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.040 So all right, one of the things that I wanted 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:38.880 to talk about right off the bat is that Amazonians 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:43.080 United is running a very very different kind of organization 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:45.560 than a lot of the union efforts that we've talked 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:46.800 about on the show, and a lot of the sort 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:50.280 of like I guess, classical or sort of business union 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:54.880 models stuff that that you know, we've we've we've we 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:56.960 you know, than than what you see in the press, 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.280 and then also that we've been covering. So I wanted 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:03.840 to start off by asking you about solidarity unionism and 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:06.760 how it sort of differs from other kinds of union 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:12.520 organizations and campaigns. Sure, I think it's pretty simple. Actually, 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:17.000 I think solidarity unionism is workers who believe in ourselves 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:22.800 and by that I mean, it's workers recognizing that we 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:28.840 don't need someone to save us UM when because we 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:31.880 are the ones doing the work, we know how to 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:37.119 run our workplaces, we know how to do it best, 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:43.959 and we also deserve the wealth that we produce. So 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:51.040 UM solidarity unionism to me is UH building organization with 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:55.360 each other, where the fabric of our organization is our 0:01:55.400 --> 0:02:07.640 relationship and our solidarity as coworkers, engaging in struggle against UM, bosses, managers, owners, UM, everyone. 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:12.560 That's that's telling us what to do while UH taking 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:17.560 the lion's share of the wealth that we create. UM. 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:22.680 And it's by uniting, coming together around issues that we 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:27.200 care about, taking direct action in the workplace, UM building 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:32.640 our confidence and our strength and our consciousness. UM and 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:38.240 our organization to me a solidary unionism UM. It is 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:45.919 distinctly different from business unionism, which is the dominant form 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:53.480 mainstream unionism, you know, legalistic unionism, whatever you wanna call it, UM, 0:02:53.600 --> 0:03:00.200 that model that has been failing for several decades. UM 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:06.760 actually is predicated on a deep distrust of workers, the 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:12.480 disbelief that workers can organize ourselves, run our own workplaces, 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:17.160 represent ourselves, defend ourselves and each other. Um. And in 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:21.320 business union, I mean you know you you see the 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:24.799 ads when they're posting, uh for union staff, job, come 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.200 lead these workers, Come come join this union and lead. 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:31.040 You're not even a worker in the workplace. Ho are 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:33.919 you gonna lead someone in there? Like you know, you're 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:36.520 you're a lawyer, you're you know, you have a different 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:39.960 professional expertise. You're not moving the packages with us from 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:45.839 inside with from within the warehouse and so UM. Yeah, 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.040 I think that's that's the main difference to me of 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:52.360 the model. Do you are you a worker? Do you 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.920 believe in workers? You trust and have faith that workers 0:03:56.040 --> 0:04:01.960 we ourselves can build our own organization, lead ourselves and um? 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.480 And when or do you think workers need to be led, 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:07.960 need to be represented, you need to be told what 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.800 to do? Um need to pay you to go and 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:17.480 say that? Um? And uh, Yeah, I believe in workers 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:21.720 almost on a solidarity unions. Yeah. And I think we 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.599 were talking a bit before the show about this, and 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:26.880 I think there's there's a lot of aspects about this 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:32.120 that are I think very powerful in you know, in 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.080 in in in secacy economy that haven't been unionized. And 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:37.080 I haven't our unions ever treated from our people who 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.400 were never sort of organized and to begin with, And 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:45.440 I think that's you know something that there's there's there's 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.200 the there's this problem that happens like with with a 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:52.400 lot of unions where you know, you you you get 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.359 you get this sort of bereacratic structure that builds up, 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.080 and the bereacratic structure that builds up like doesn't have 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.640 doesn't necessarily have the same interests as the people in 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:01.599 the UNI union. And that's a real problem. And you 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:04.240 get these entrenched like you know, you can get these 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:06.359 entrenched caucuses you control unions, and you get this the 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:09.760 sort of pliferation of of these people. And I think 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.960 this was this was part of why a lot of 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:15.839 the sort of the anti union techniques that you saw 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.400 in like the sort of anti union persias in the eighties, 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:20.760 I mean you've been seeing them for a while. Like 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:22.760 why they started working in the eighties was that, like 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.560 you know, when when when when someone like starts ranting 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.480 about union bureaucrats right like they're they're actually like there 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.560 actually was a divide there, like there there there was 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.520 a sort of like I guess like the like there 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.520 there was a sort of like a kind of fundamental 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:40.760 class difference, which I think has a lot I mean, 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:42.920 also has a lot to do with you know, when 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.160 when you get into your sort of like more more 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.839 revolutionary context that that has to do with why a 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.760 lot of unions when you know, Frances infamous for this, 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.200 right like Franceais had these giant like comunist trade unions 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:55.960 and every time a revolution started, the trade union just 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.919 like sits there and does nothing. And yeah, and you 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:00.480 have to sort of ask yourself like, because so why 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:04.200 is this happening? And I think, yeah, soldier to unionism, 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:05.960 it has it has a lot of answers to this 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:08.200 sort of I guess you call it like that. There's 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:09.839 there's a there's a sort of like right wing critique 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.160 of unions that has to do with like, well, okay, 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:13.880 so we don't want workers to organize, we don't want 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:15.640 them to reflective power at all. But then there's also 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.200 you know, but but the reason that it works in 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:20.000 a lot of cases because it's able to tap into 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:23.080 a sort of like into these structural problems that a 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:27.880 lot of unions have. And I think so my understanding 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.679 of how he always organizing has been going and correct 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:33.920 me if I'm wrong that I've been interested in is that, like, 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.880 unlike a lot of other campaigns that you've seen, even 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.000 specifically with Amazon, but like a lot of other the 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:43.279 sort of the campaigns that are getting a lot of press, like, 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:45.520 you're not active, Like your goal isn't to just get 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:51.440 like recognition as a colected bargaining in it. Right. That's 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.000 another key part of our key difference between solid or 0:06:55.200 --> 0:07:01.480 unionism business unionism. UM. In business unionism, you're you're. What 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:06.279 defines you as a union is whether you are legally 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:10.760 recognized by the state, by n l R b um, 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:18.200 by the appointed government body. Um. That is the point 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.880 at which the folks in these organizations like, are we 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.160 a union or are we not? Okay, let's let's do 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.520 an election. Let's follow all these rules that, by the way, 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:32.720 we're designed to demobilize us century ago. But let's follow 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:37.640 these rules. Let's try to fight in the courts UH 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.320 to be recognized as a union. And then once we're 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:42.680 a union, then we can fight for a legal contract 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.120 that has benefited a lot of people in different ways. 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.040 I'm not you know what I mean, like, but that 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:55.360 approach is different than solidity unism, where It's like, we 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:59.080 know our power is in the workplace, on the shop floor, 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.720 where our power based on our unity and numbers as 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:05.440 co workers. We see this when we walk out and 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:07.880 within a month they give us a raise. Along would 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:09.560 it have taken to get a raise if we went 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:15.680 for an l ORB election. Yeah, what organization are we 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:21.720 even building in that way? And so um our. Instead 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:29.680 of seeking legal recognition and waging our uh uh struggle 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:34.520 against bosses in the courts, we are choosing to wage 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:40.000 engage in struggle in the shop floor where we are 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:42.520 the experts, where we have the power, where we have 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.520 the organization, where we are doing the work, where that 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.680 is our home turf. Um, we have more power. They're like, 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.640 it makes more sensitive build power where we have power, 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:58.120 not in the institutions that were specifically designed to disempower 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.840 us and give large employers upper hand. Um. All the 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:06.080 different ways that they can manipulate how the votes happen, 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:12.160 what is considered part of the voting unit, um, the 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:16.199 contract negotiation process, I mean all of these legal hurdles. 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:21.080 I mean, for the vast majority of workers, you'll need 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:25.200 lawyers to be even understand how to engage in that world. 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.000 That's not our world. It was not built for us 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.960 to be in. It was built to control us. And 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:37.440 so um, it just doesn't make logical sense to try 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.160 to wage our struggle in that arena. We should be 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:43.840 in waging it in the places that we work and 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:47.800 so um. That Yeah, that's I think another core UM 0:09:48.080 --> 0:09:51.440 principal solidity unism like build power where we have it, 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:54.679 um and that's the shop floor. Yeah, and I think, 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.560 I mean that's something that I've seen like in when 0:09:57.559 --> 0:09:59.319 I was in college. There there's a big dress you 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:04.960 need and organization campaign and it kind of they had 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:06.800 this huge problem which was that Okay, well they were 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:08.480 trying to do they were trying to get a National 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:13.560 Labor Relations Board like vote under Trump. But they couldn't 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:15.959 do it because if you know, because because the National 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:20.160 Labor Relations Board was controlled by just like the even 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:24.120 even by National Labor Relations Board standards like like just 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:28.800 unbelievably anti union, like viscerally anti worker forces. It was like, well, 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:31.120 if we try to get a vote, like there's a 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.599 chance they could just you know, like literally destroy the 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:35.679 right like destroy the organizing rights of all grad students 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.160 of the country. And yeah, and you get you get 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.240 that with the Nissan election or something like that. Yeah, yeah, 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:44.960 and definitely delayed it. Yeah, and it's it's you know, 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:47.000 and yeah, I think this this is a trap that 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:49.880 like a lot of people, even even people who are 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:53.920 really highly organized like get stuck in where you know, 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:58.880 and the like. Eventually, uh, the grand students just like 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:02.240 essentially it's just started doing walkouts because that was you know, 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:03.880 that that was the thing they could do when they 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:06.400 start doing their own strikes until they weren't like legally recognized, 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.400 because that was the thing that you could do to 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:11.360 you know, actually fight in a terrain that wasn't just 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:24.080 inherently rigged against you. So okay, so you've you've you've 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.719 you've decided to take to take a fight in the workplace, 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:29.959 like on the shop floor where where you're where you're 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.000 at your strongest. What does that actually look like in 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:37.880 terms of actions, in terms of organization. Yeah, honestly, I 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:48.959 think it's simpler and more rudimentary. Um then one might 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:51.040 think or that you might read about and you know, 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:55.840 an academic article or something analyzing or I think it 0:11:55.880 --> 0:12:02.920 comes down to comes down to building community, comes down 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:09.800 to building culture and the principles of the community and 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:12.640 culture that you build together with their coworkers is one 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:17.000 where we value ourselves and each other. We respect ourselves 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:23.040 and each other, and that means that we fight for 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:26.440 what is fair in the workplace. That means that we 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:33.240 maintain integrity. Any time a boss disrespects one of us, 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.800 we need to confront it. We we need to address it. Uh. 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:42.679 If not immediately, uh soon after. In numbers, UM, it 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:47.240 means if we're getting overworked and underpaid, then we need 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.880 to strategize and figure out how do we how do 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:56.360 we compel the employer to stop overworking and underpaying us, 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.040 How do we hit them in a place that they 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:03.000 are forced to respe spect and um as it goes 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:05.880 in the world we are today, it's always the numbers, 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.320 It's always the money, it's always the profit. So UM 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:11.280 what that means on the day to day, I mean 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:18.760 m Amazon warehouses are a very isolating place. UM. Amazon 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:23.640 has basically uh gigified warehouse work. You know, it's like 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:25.840 the uber for warehouse where you can pick up shifts, 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:28.600 you can you know, extra shifts, you can take uh 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:33.559 furlough days, you know, called them videos. UM. Many warehouses 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:37.480 like you're you're work the ten twelve hour shift and 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:39.960 you're for that entire time you're near one or two 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.679 people max. Because they're spaced out and it's loud, and 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:47.440 there's machinery and your packing boxes and and so UM. 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:51.800 On top of that, you know that everyday dehumanizing. It's 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:55.800 also um, you're pushed to work faster and faster. UM. 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.160 It's difficult to have you know, deep human and direction 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.480 when you're busting your ass moving you know, thirty to 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.160 forty five pound packages as quickly as you can. UM. 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:12.679 And so the day to day of building and fighting 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.839 in the workplace, building community means uh. For example, every 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.720 week we have a potluck during lunch, bring coworkers together, 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.960 new coworkers that you know someone could start last week. 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.800 That's something that we hear a lot. You know. Part 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.360 of the challenge, it's the turnover is so high? How 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:33.480 can you possibly organized turnover so high? UM. That is 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:37.280 a specific weapon that boss is used against us. High 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.359 turnover means what it means we frequently have new coworkers, 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.680 harder to build relationship and organization. It means that the 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:48.840 job feels more precarious, so people are always uh afraid 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:51.480 that will lose our job. You know, we could get fired. 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.880 We could uh they could change uh staffing numbers that 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.200 could close warehouses. It create you know, as a tool 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:02.560 higher turnover. They just they turned through workers. Okay, who 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:04.760 who's willing to do the most work for the lowest 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:08.360 pay and sacrifice the most of their body? Okay? If 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:10.480 if you can't handle it, then you quit. If you can, 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:12.440 then you stay in here. Okay, let's find the workers 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.360 in society that are most able to you know, produce 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:17.240 the most that so on and so forth and so 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:22.800 basic things you know, having every day. Uh. Sometimes it's 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.280 just like talking with your coworkers is something that is 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:31.240 that they try to keep you from doing in the workplace, 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:37.960 And by engaging conversation, you're already resisting that isolation, already resisting. UM. 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.280 Boss is trying to just control everything, keep everyone divided. 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:47.160 So weekly pot lunches, UM having meetings inside or outside 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.480 of the workplace, coming together, what are the issues that 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.640 we care about? UM? How do we bring how do 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:54.880 we build more unity around these issues that we know 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.840 many people care about. Isn't doing a petition people sign 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.040 on together? Are we delivering the petition? And the group. Um. 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:04.960 If the management doesn't respond, it doesn't give us a 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.840 reasonable response. How do we escalate? Do we need to 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:11.160 walk out? Do we need to take other action? UM? 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:16.280 Any time we see a manager disres disrespecting a coworker, UM, 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:18.640 how do we post up next to them, pull out 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:22.000 a notepads, start taking notes? Ask questions? UM, we're a witness, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:23.760 you know. How do we defend each other in all 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.240 of these basic ways? How are we addressing um and 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:31.240 being honest with ourselves and each other? Of uh? Just 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.120 the depth of disrespect when they're waiting for us outside 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:36.320 of the bathrooms to write us out for time off pass, 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:38.880 when they're telling us to work faster when you know 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:41.400 we're already on a ten hour shift. We're on our 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:43.680 ten of the ten hour shift. They sent a bunch 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.280 of people home and are forcing us to finish all 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:48.640 the work for a small number of people. Do we 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.640 continue putting up with it or do we immediately walk out? 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:53.560 Or do we talk to their co works about what 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.440 we want to do? Just being mindful of being honest 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:02.040 about what how we are being treated, what is fair, 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:08.440 what is not and taking the necessary action to UH 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:12.880 demand the the fairness, the respect that each of that deserves. 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:19.679 I think, like that's what the workplace struggle looks like. Um, 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:21.760 I don't. Yeah, And I think it comes down to 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:25.520 building that community with each other and then building the 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:28.680 culture of not putting up with bullshit, defending each other, 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:33.080 looking out for each other. Um, there's them, there's an US, UM, 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:37.439 make sure you know whatside you're on UM, and you know, 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:41.800 I think that's the that's the foundation of it. Yeah. 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.840 I think that the aspect, especially of culture building is 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:46.800 really interesting to me because I think that's something that's 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:52.320 not really talked about much with with with the organizing 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:56.000 efforts in both because you know, a lot of like 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:58.959 a lot of book is discussed with you know, it's 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.720 it's especially in academic circles when when when you're when 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.400 you're just you know, when when when you have people 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:06.679 writing about union organizing, and when even when sort of 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:11.240 like other union organizers are writing about unions, is that, Yeah, 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.280 you don't hear much about the cultural aspects, and you 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:19.200 don't hear much about just resisting the actual like psychological 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.560 degradation that you get. And that strikes me I think 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.200 also as as yeah, as as you've been saying struct 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:31.000 something that's that's very important, not discussed enough as I 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.080 mean both says just something that that is a goal 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.800 in itself, like not having this sort of you know, 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:42.359 not not having the just sort of horrible de meeting 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:44.960 and abusive sort of tyranny of the boss is just 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:52.480 like existing as this kind of like normal force. But 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.440 then also like yeah, that destructing something that is really 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:59.600 important for anyone who's who's thinking about organizing, is you know, 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:06.280 getting getting people, getting people to organize around just like 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:11.720 howe getting people to organize around just this the sort 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:16.640 of like the psychological decordation, like I think is really 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.480 important because otherwise, you know, you get you can get 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:21.959 you can just get these cultures where like I mean, 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:23.600 I remember I had a job where I was in 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.240 like we had a union, but like it didn't I 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:27.680 mean I was so I was I was at temp 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:29.520 workers where I wasn't in the union, like they had 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:31.320 a union, and it just sort of didn't do anything, 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.760 and no one like you and this this is a 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:36.320 real source and sort of right reing resentment because the 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.080 union just didn't do anything, and then you know everyone's 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:43.359 getting treated terribly like by by the bosses and by 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.400 sort upper management and no one. But it never even 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.560 like it never really like is on a culture level, 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:50.680 never occurred to them to sort of like use the 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.080 union for that, because that's not really what the union 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:54.680 was there for. It was just the sort of like 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.480 it was just this thing that existed, and like occasionally 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.960 when contracts came up, it would pier and I guess, 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:03.680 on on On that note, one of the things I 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:08.080 was also wondering is what sort of so for for 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.440 for for people who are who are interested in their 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.040 own workplaces and starting doing this kind of organizing and 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.119 starting to sort of, i mean just fight back against 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.400 their bosses in ways that don't you know, either because 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:21.880 they don't want to or because they literally can't, which 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:23.760 I think is is true of a lot of people 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.800 like who who want to organize outside of the business 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.120 neion model. How how do you how did you all 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:36.520 start organizing like this? And what what sort of immediate 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.119 lessons do you think people should should take away and 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:41.880 should sort of bring in bring into their own organizing 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:49.040 in the workplace. Yeah, um, I think at the base 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:54.280 of the is the um I guess I mentioned something 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:58.440 like this earlier, but that we we can organize ourselves. 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:01.800 We can. You know, if you're talking if you have 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.920 two co workers that you're friends with, and UM, you 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:09.480 say like, hey, let's meet up and talk about what's 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:13.679 going on at work, you're starting to organize, you know. UM. 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:22.800 And I think part of part of the damage, part 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:30.280 of the harm that business unionism has done. And also 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:39.400 just I don't know, hierarchical organizing Umlinsky and organizing UM. 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:45.240 I think they're all part of uh sort of connected 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:49.280 school of thought where it's like organizing and you know, 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:51.480 building a union is something that like you need to 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:55.200 be like professionals to or you know, they're experts at 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:58.200 it U experts and then if you're not an expert, 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:00.679 then you need to consultant expert figure out how to 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:04.200 do it UM. And I think that's bullshit. I think 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:08.240 it's if you're a worker, then uh, you can be 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.840 a union organizer. If you're a worker and you talk 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:15.119 with you know, another worker about what's going on in 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:18.840 your workplace, like you're already starting to organize. UM. Like 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:21.120 I said earlier, if you're calling a meeting, if you're 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:23.880 you know, and and workers do this all the time 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:28.160 confronting management about this respect you know, I think it's 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:31.880 very much more frequently on an individual basis. But it's 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:34.440 a matter of like connecting your issue with a couple 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:37.800 other coworkers and then figure out, Okay, well, um, what 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:40.080 what's our next step? But we need more numbers? How 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:43.200 do we you know, how do we build more numbers? Uh? 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:45.159 If each of us can invite one more person, that 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:48.560 six people, if you know, if the six of us 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:51.800 can are starting a petition, we could probably get you know, 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:54.360 signature is a fifty or sixty, you know, like it's 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.359 it's step by step and saying if we want to 0:22:57.400 --> 0:23:01.200 build organization, we can do it from the bottom up. 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:05.560 We can start it um and we can figure this out. 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:10.960 I mean, every even within the same company, even within 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.439 the same company in the same city there you know, 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:19.240 I work at UM a delivery station, Engage Park, other 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:22.440 delivery stations in the city of Chicago have a completely 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:27.440 different culture, you know, the neighborhood that it's in the 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:32.800 workers that are the bosses, you know, And so even 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:36.080 in the same company, the same type of workplace in 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:38.960 the same city, it's gonna be a different story for 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:46.080 how that workplace is gonna you know, get united, come together, UM, 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:51.400 figure things out, build organization, and it's just anyone there 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:57.400 that is thinking about that that that kind of just 0:23:57.600 --> 0:24:01.160 begins the process of putting together. They six, all right, 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:03.040 we need to start building up some numbers. We need 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:06.359 to start having, you know, addressing some issues that people 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:08.919 care about. And there's always i mean, there's always the 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:11.840 you know, overworked and underpaid, and that's gonna exist everywhere. 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:13.840 You can always go after those issues, but frequently there 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:15.480 are small ones like our first issue was a water 0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:19.560 petition uh or or or or at was access to 0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:21.800 water UM, and this is how we started as an 0:24:21.880 --> 0:24:27.159 organization UM. Basically, they were taking away bottled water. They 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:29.120 said we were leaving around too much garbage. They're saying 0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:30.879 bottled water is only there for the summer, and now 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:33.680 that's not the summer. That whatever. They're trying to save 0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:36.600 a few dollars a day on bottled water to make 0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:42.639 us you know, work without it UM, And we said, 0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:46.160 that's fucked up. We're doing warehouse work like this, hard 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:48.520 manual labor, and it's hot in here. We need a 0:24:48.560 --> 0:24:52.800 bottle water. It's you know, not just that broken, unfiltered 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:55.359