1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season to fifty five, 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:08,239 Speaker 1: episode three of dirty production of I heart radio. This 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: is a podcast where we take a deep dive into 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: American's share consciousness. And it is Wednesday, September, one Um so, 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: nine to two, National Chai Day, National New York Day, 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: national can cookie day or pecan Cookie Day, depending on 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: how you pronounced cans as the as the main feature 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: in a cookie. Pickhan. Okay, I've never had if you 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: can't cook, I guess what. Okay, so it's just like 10 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: a sugar cookie with chopped up yeah, I always I 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: always associate them with like those tins of cookies with 12 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: that are mostly dust. Seemed to be the main like 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: the very dry. Come to appreciate them in old age 14 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: because you can like dunk them in coffee and stuff, 15 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: but when I was a kid I was like, you're 16 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: out spitting it again. There's desiccant Gel in my mouth. Yeah, anyways, 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: my name is Jack O'Brien, a k potatoes O'Brien, and 18 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: solidarity with, uh, you know, my Irish brethren who I 19 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: understand are just trying to find direction in these first 20 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: days after the Paper Day Queen Um so, where we're 21 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: thinking of you and I'm thrilled to be joined, as always, 22 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: by my co host, Mr Miles Grad this royal nab 23 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: bill to sit there. Had to find somewhere stupid Charles 24 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: could play sauceas fingers doing. They're creeping. Just don't make 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: them use a fountain pen. The people, all y'all yearning 26 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: for pound bury to be burning. Curving, coving, curving, coving, 27 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: curving roads for funzies. Okay, shout out to the brew 28 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: who obviously look. We're talking about Poundbury, the town that 29 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: Prince Charles designed with roads that are just curved for 30 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: no reason at all, which I believe. Did you say 31 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: curving for FRENZIES, somebody? Yeah, Kurt, I think you said 32 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: for Funzies, but DIS curving the roads for funzies. I'll 33 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: take the FUNZIES, I mean. I mean it was a 34 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: group effort, honestly. So I've shout out to Poundbury. If 35 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: you live in the Houndbury, where Charles designed. I really 36 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: am curious if we have a single listener in Poundbury. Um, 37 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: but if, okay, if you are call in, you will 38 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: be on the show. If you are one listener in Poundbury, 39 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: the weird housing estate that Prince Charles. Just like know 40 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: someone there. I want to, I want to like do 41 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: have a listener. Go and like tell us what it 42 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: what it's like. It sounds like facetime less from poundbury. Yeah, anyways, miles, 43 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: we are thrilled to be joined by an acclaimed wildlife 44 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: ecologist and conservation who specializes in researching how human activity 45 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: influences the behavior of wild animals. She's the host of 46 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: the PBS nature podcast going wild with Dr Ray WYNN grant, 47 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: which makes sense because she is doctor Ray Winn Grant. 48 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:24,399 Speaker 1: I'm here, Doctor WYNN grant, doctor, doctor, Doctor. Is that cool? 49 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: Just doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor, it is fine. Yeah, yeah, 50 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: I was. I I did ask if I could call 51 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: you doctor grant because I just, you know, for Jurassic Park, 52 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: purpose of respect. Yeah, no, I love that, but you know, 53 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: the answer is no, I can't like share the wind 54 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: side of my whole family. Yeah, exactly, it makes sense. 55 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: Makes Sense, and you did say Jurassic Park is a 56 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: seminal film for you as well. Oh my gosh. Yeah, 57 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: I mean, what year did it come out? I don't know, 58 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: but likee. Okay, I was eight years old. I definitely 59 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: did not see it in theaters but probably like the 60 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: next year when it was on Vhs, like it became 61 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: my favorite. How could it not? Like I felt like 62 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: I was one of those kids, like the blonde girl 63 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: with the hair and the kitchen scene, you know, heart pumping, 64 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: and then, of course, like I was a little baby 65 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: nerd and like a wildlife nerd and like an extinction nerd. 66 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: So I was super into the whole like concepts. Did 67 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: I possibly also have like a very early sexual awakening 68 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: with with some of the cast members, like in their 69 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 1: iconic scenes? Possibly I had a little baby when that 70 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: shirts open, when that shirts open, I was even like, 71 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: is that how a man's body should look? Oh Gosh, 72 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: she's injured and vulnerable. Come on with your with your 73 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: nice tailored shirt open. We see you, Dr Malcolm, no wonder. 74 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: I'm a scientist. I was curious, like sort of because 75 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: you are, you know, you do this now for a 76 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: living and you're you're great at what you do. That 77 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: you are always had this interest in my mind. I 78 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: was hoping, like the Jurassic Park completely kick this off 79 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: for you, but it was just a goal, a light 80 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: post on the way. Yeah, well, okay, so there's kind 81 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: of like two angles to this story. Like there's a 82 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: very basic one where, again, I was a little baby 83 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: nerd and my favorite shows to watch on TV were 84 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: nature shows, so like the David Attenborough, the Steve Irwin, 85 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: like the you know, the classic like British Australian Nature Shows. 86 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: Loved them. And so when I was a kid, people 87 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: say what do you want to be when you grow up, 88 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 1: and I'd say I want to be a nature show host, 89 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: like I want to see wild animals. You know, I 90 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: was from California. I didn't necessarily have this understanding that 91 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: nature was like outside my door, like, you know, like 92 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: thirty miles away, like I thought you have to like 93 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: jump over oceans to get to the wilderness, and I 94 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: was like the only way I can do that is 95 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: to be a nature show host, because I did not 96 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: have anyone in my like sphere who went into the wilderness. 97 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: And so I was like nature show hosts do that 98 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: for a living. That's what I want to do. I 99 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: want to be up close and personal baled animals. That's 100 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: the career. And so then like later, like college age, 101 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: I learned that like Oh, there's like a science to that, 102 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: like there's people who like study endangered species and developed 103 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: the science to prevent their extinction. That was like a 104 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: way more accessible career path than like being like the lucky, 105 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: like Bingo winner who gets to be a nature show host, 106 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: you know. So I latched onto that. The other way, 107 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: I'll say it, is that like I was a child 108 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: of the nineties, right. So, like we were getting all 109 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: those fear tactics like thrown at us all the time, right, 110 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: like like the dare officer would come to the playground 111 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: and be like don't go trigger treating, like people are 112 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: going to give you drugs free. Yeah, like it's going 113 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 1: to be like free to dogs disguised as candy. You know, 114 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: like be afraid of everything, and so I was super 115 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: afraid of wildlife extinction. You know, it's like whales, you know, 116 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: it's like save the whales, like save the pandas, like 117 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: save like like eagles, like Bald Eagles are national. Yeah, 118 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: like they were going extinct right, and so it was 119 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: like super alarming and everything was alarming, but I kind 120 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: of like latched onto that stuff and when I learned 121 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: like there are people out there like creating solutions for this, 122 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: I was like I have to be one of those people, 123 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: like otherwise what are we gonna do, like a world 124 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: no eagles, like I gotta help. So I've calmed down. 125 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: Like these days I do it because I love it. 126 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: I'm more relaxed. But it started kind of out of 127 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: like a love for TV and then like a subsequent 128 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: like nineties anxiety. Yeah, and did you also have like 129 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: like those zoo books and stuff, or like those like 130 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: those like animal file books that I remember my school library? 131 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: Or like every month there would be like nudas seas 132 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: on animals totally, and then I read like anamorphous books 133 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: into animals like fight aliens and yeah, the whole thing. 134 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: You were there. I'm just realizing it's weird that Jurassic Park, 135 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: like of the scientists they bring to this expedition slash 136 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: like testing out of the park. None of them are 137 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: scientists that they bring to like dinosaur bones specialists. I 138 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: know that she's actually a paleobotanist. She's a Paleobotanist, okay, 139 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: and then a mathematician and a lawyer, and they don't 140 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: bring anybody who like works with wild animals, which actually biologists. Yeah, 141 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: it feels like a miss. Yeah, we need to remake 142 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: we need like a like a docuse series. Yeah, the 143 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: Real Jurassic Park, miss by Richard Attonborough, who is David 144 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 1: attenborough's brother. All right, so the attenborough family very influential. 145 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: Do you think there's a way? I mean, and I 146 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: hate to just indulge, you use your professional knowledge to 147 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: indulge my stupid question. Is there a way to do 148 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: Jurassic Park responsibly if we could? Oh, oh, that's big. 149 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: Start up front with hypothetical to you know, like the 150 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: reason this is like also kind of a touchy subject 151 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: is that there's this company out there that is doingness, 152 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: but with the wooly mammoth right, it is really happening, 153 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: like it is moving forward, it is happening, like they 154 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: conducted me last year to ask if I would like 155 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: get involved Um, and I said no because I was 156 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: like just like the science, the science is there, like 157 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: it's not a question of like is this possible? Can 158 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: we do it? Like the answer is like for sure, 159 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: it's an amazing feat of science, but like yeah, we 160 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: can do it. Should we do it? And will it 161 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: actually contribute to like I met mitigation, which is one 162 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: of the things they're arguing. They're like if we have 163 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: these animals like trudging around the Tundra. It can allow 164 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 1: the soil to sequest our carbon better. Like maybe it 165 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: should just like stop emitting, you know, greenhouse gases. If 166 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: they invited me to be involved in that, which they 167 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: probably will eventually. I'm sure I'm on their list, I 168 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 1: would just repply with with a link to Jurassic Park, 169 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: to the Jurassic Park and no further questions. Your scientists 170 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 1: are so preoccupied with whether they could could they stop 171 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: to think if they should? Now look at my chest hair. Yeah, now, 172 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: look at my chest hair in my amazing all right, 173 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 1: Dr Ry, we're going to get to know you a 174 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: little bit better in a moment. First we're gonna tell 175 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: our listeners a couple of the things we are talking about. 176 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: It's a TRICIA episode. We're going to bring in UH, superproducer, 177 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: Tricia mccargee, also, you know, daily zeitgeist correspondent, Trisian mccargee, 178 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: to talk about the history of white supremacy in conservation 179 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: and environmentalism and the history and present of it, and 180 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, just some of the amazing things that you've 181 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: done and talked about on your show. Um, we're going 182 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: to maybe check in with what's going on with Donald 183 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: Trump's attempt the special master strategy, the special master gambit, 184 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: sounds like a chess movie. There in court right now 185 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: is a recording and I'm reading like a play by 186 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: play on twitter, and is not going well for him wild. 187 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: So I might talk about that. We might even talk 188 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: about why, Um, nobody watches kids especially don't watch TV anymore. Plenty, Moore. 189 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: But First, Dr Ray, we like to ask our guest. 190 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: What is something from your search history? Oh Yeah, wait, 191 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: I wrote this down because I, like I told you, 192 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: prepared for this and so, okay. So the last thing, 193 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: the last thing from my Google search history from yesterday 194 00:11:55,280 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: when I prepared, was googling my hair stylists booking site. Okay, 195 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: like I needed to book some appointments for my hairstyle 196 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: is but not for me. It's because I'm a mama 197 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: and I have two little girls and it is school 198 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: picture week and I may not have dropped the ball 199 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: on the preparation and, in particular, like I am a 200 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: black woman, I have, like you know, a black husband. 201 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: We are a black family. So hair is not necessarily simple, right. 202 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: It's not like a little wash and style morning of right. 203 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: It's like a whole, like wash day, blow dry, braid 204 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: down like proper style for my kids, a skill that 205 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: I did not have myself, and so do I have 206 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: like a relationship with my hairstyles where I can just 207 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: text her and be like s Os, like help me 208 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: out right now. So I had to go the formal 209 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: route and like find her website and get a last 210 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: minute booking and I failed, and so now I may 211 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: or may not be panicking about that. So that's from 212 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: my search. And one of the school pictures. One of 213 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 1: the school pictures Thursday, Tuesday. Look that gang. I know 214 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: Somebod Y'all live out there and I know, yeah, we 215 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 1: got we got all kinds of look, maybe somebody from 216 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: L A can hook you up expense. I mean it, 217 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: don't make it crazy, but like a little little brown 218 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: heads need to be brained up, please, right, exactly. Let's 219 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: not please somebody. I get so stressed out by school pictures. 220 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: I have a six year old and a four year 221 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: old and all the all these other kids like that 222 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: when I see the pictures in the little yearbook at 223 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: the end of the year, like they nail it, like 224 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: for some reason they just they have a way of 225 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: getting these other little kids to just be natural. And 226 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: then my kids are always like they have their eyes 227 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: almost closed and it looks like a dental exam, like 228 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: they're just and I'm like, I know, I've taken pictures 229 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: of these kids, I know that this is not impossible, but, yeah, 230 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: I get very stressed out. So we do a lot of, 231 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: you know, facial warm ups at home. Um, you know, pose. 232 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: I just I just stopped them in the middle of 233 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: whatever they're doing and say pose, and they have to 234 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: give me a natur angles A. Yeah, I was the 235 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: worst picture taker. I was too so I looked I 236 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: looked like I was trying to funk with my parents, 237 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: like with how bad my pictures were, like I told you, 238 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: I don't like it. So you want me to smile, 239 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: you'll get this. That's the most pain smile you've ever 240 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: seen a child, a smile from a child that somehow 241 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: says fuck you. Yeah, he'll be like, damn, he's only 242 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: in kindergarten, man, you say all that with that smile. 243 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: What is something you think is overrated? Oh wait, what 244 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: did I write down? What's something? Oh, this is controversial. 245 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: So I did not think I was going to jump 246 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: right into controversy. Let's do it. That's something that, as expert, 247 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: I believe is overrated. Is Recycling. Okay, okay, you didn't 248 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: think I was going to say that now. I'm not 249 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: saying don't recycle, but if you, if you learn more 250 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: about that recycle, effective recycling is, you will learn that 251 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: it is a freaking disaster. Um, the whole system is 252 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: a hot mess and recycling does not reach or even 253 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: come close to reaching the goals we think it does. 254 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: In a lot of ways, there's an argument it does 255 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: more harm than good, like it takes a lot of 256 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: fossil fuel emissions to recycle things, like to turn like 257 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: aluminum or glass into new aluminum and glass. It actually, 258 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: like we have to pollute a lot to get that done. 259 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: There's like so many issues with it. So a solution? 260 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: Please keep recycling, but like, even better, reduce your consumption 261 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: and reuse the things that you consume. So like emphasis 262 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: on reduce and reuse. Recycling is overrated. Yeah, I was. 263 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: I was shamed by my reusable shopping bags, like the 264 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: thick plastic ones that a lot of the stores got around, 265 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: like the thin bag bandwid the like. Well, now we 266 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: give re usable ones out and I was just like 267 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: I could make a submarine if I melted all this 268 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: plastic down like full size sick. Yeah, and I don't 269 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: throw it away too, because part it's like you can't 270 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: recycle this ship, and I'm like I don't want to 271 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: waste it. So then eventually I am able to use 272 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: those a little bit better, but now I always bring 273 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: my big ass like reusable bag canvas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because, yes, 274 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: I've I've been thoroughly just put into a state of 275 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: panic over like how terrible I am with that kind 276 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: of stuff. Reduced and reuse. That's the way. Yeah, and 277 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: it's wild how much packaging stuff too, like says it 278 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: has like a recycling logo on it. Yet you have 279 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: to go take some things like specialized places. You can't 280 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: just put that in like your city recycling cancer, I learned, 281 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: you will die. I recently learned again. I just got 282 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: a whole like proper education on this, so now I 283 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: can speak as an expert. I've recently learned that in 284 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 1: like several states in this country, it is legal to 285 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: put a recycling symbol on anything even if it's not recyclable, 286 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: and people use the loophole it's just good marketing for recycling. 287 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: It's kind of like it's kind of like saying, if 288 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: you can figure out a way to recycle this, go ahead, 289 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:33,959 Speaker 1: but we're we don't have a way. Yeah, yeah, it's wild, 290 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: it is. It is so exactly, so American anyway. So, like, 291 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 1: don't think you're doing something by recycling. It is overrated. 292 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: There are better ways, reduced reuse at a minimum. Yeah, 293 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: I just like to collect those plastic bags that have 294 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 1: the big recycling thing on it, because it proves that 295 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: I'm into I'm here to save the Earth. Many of 296 00:17:53,800 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: those conscious yeah, what is something that you think is underrated? Yeah, 297 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: I really am really into sweet potatoes. Um, I think 298 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: that sweet potatoes do not get nearly enough love and play, 299 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: and I don't mean like doing anything fancy with them. 300 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,479 Speaker 1: I don't mean like that they're versatile. I'm saying like, 301 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: bake a sweet potato and eat it and you will 302 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: be so happy with yourself. Like people don't have sweet 303 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: potatoes enough as a part of their meal, and so 304 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: I am like sweet potato, like I eat so many 305 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: sweet potatoes I feel like I should like invest in 306 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: a farm or something, like I have my whole family. 307 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: Like I don't cube them. We don't do sweet potato fries, 308 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: like proper baked sweet potatoes. My little trick is to 309 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: like overcook them right. So, like, instead of an hour 310 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: in the oven, like try it two hours in the oven, right, 311 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: and then like use a bunch of butter and just 312 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: like put it as a side on your dinner and 313 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: like thank me later. You can eat it with a 314 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,959 Speaker 1: straw at that point, after two hours, you can just 315 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: slip it up. It's like that is so good with 316 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: a ton of butter and you do like feel it. 317 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: It is filling and also liked detricious. Yeah, it's like 318 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: that than like a baked potato. With apologies to the Irish, 319 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's like nutritious, it is filling, it's sweet, 320 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: it's like it's your little Beta carot and there are 321 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: other varieties where you can do like a Japanese sweet potato. 322 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: You can do a purple sweet potato, like do a 323 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: Yam or whatever. If that is actually different, I don't know, 324 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: like you know, like yeah, but I'd like do it 325 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: like thank me later. For sure. There's yeah, I love 326 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: sweet potatoes and my family, a lot of people love so. 327 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: My mom makes a Japanese version of sweet potatoes, because 328 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: in Japan, which is like using like sugar and honey 329 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: and soy sauce and sesame, that's like really good and 330 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: I remember my my my black grandparents trying it and 331 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:58,719 Speaker 1: they were like what the fund is this and then 332 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: they were completely turned around by eating it's called Die Gaglimo, 333 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: which is called college potato. I don't know why it's 334 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: called that. It's like the name of the recipe, but yeah, 335 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: there was a video recently this dude, I don't know 336 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: if he saw, there's a guy who does like who 337 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: had never heard of a sweet potato before. It was 338 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: like this viral video or the guy's like putting like 339 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: a sweet potato through like a French fry press and 340 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: he's like sweet potato, what is this and he's like 341 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 1: it looks like a QVC segment. was like I guess 342 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: I'll see, and he like pushes it through and he's 343 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: like this is it's orange. I've never seen anything like 344 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: this and I'm I couldn't believed that this person. It 345 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: had to have been a bit because I refuse to 346 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: believe that there's a human being who has any like 347 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: sort of interest in potatoes. Who has not seen a 348 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: sweet potato? But maybe I'm but I don't know. There's like, 349 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: you know, you get surprised, like wasn't there that video 350 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: like of dmx, maybe rest in peace, when you didn't 351 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: know Barack Olama was the president? Yeah, or what Google was, 352 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 1: I mean, but he was. He was also smoking crack. 353 00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: So I want to give him a pass that. You know, 354 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: maybe time at a different speed. Yeah, time moves a 355 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: different for M that's true. But there's no reason for 356 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: stacy dash to not know that he died. But again, 357 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: we had to put her you know, just sorry. Stacy. 358 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: Had A friend in college who had never had a 359 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: banana and like he knew what they were. He wasn't 360 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: he like he was like screaming, but Nana, but like 361 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: he was. That was his he and he never he refused. 362 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: We were like they're so good, man, what are you doing? 363 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: And he just refused to even try bananas because he 364 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: wouldn't be like trying to feed a child, where it's 365 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: like he's like I did the plane coming in for 366 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: a landing, and he just personally particulated a reason why. No, 367 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: he was just a quirky dude. Surprising there because again, 368 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: like even as kids, bananas are like forced upon us. 369 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: Like you watch a cartoon, people play tricks on each other. 370 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: You like slip on a banana peeling central. Yeah, so 371 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: central that my kids so many. Then to get constipated. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, 372 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: it is not good for the digestive system. All right, well, 373 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break. We're going to 374 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 1: come back and talk to you a little bit more 375 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: with super producer Tricia. And we're back and we were 376 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: joined by superproducer TRICIA mccarriygee too good to be here. Yeah, 377 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: so you, Um, you know we're reading through Dr Ray's 378 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: work and listening to her podcast and you begged us 379 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: to come on to talk to her about just kind 380 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: of yeah, I mean that you put together a nice story, 381 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: just like highlighting some of the really fascinating aspects of 382 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: her work. So you want to change through it? Yes, 383 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: of course. Um. Yeah, so, I was reading about your work, 384 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: dctor a, and it was amazing. First of all, I 385 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: would recommend that everyone listens to your podcast, going wild, 386 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: as the name right, going wild with rays, named it 387 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: after myself smart, and so I was reading, I was 388 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: seeing all these really adorable pictures of you with baby 389 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: bear cubs and with like snakes and Lemurs and all 390 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: these other animals. It was great, Um, but as I 391 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: was as I was looking through these photos and just 392 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: reading about your work, Um, in you know, this hard 393 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: science part of it, as well as environmental justice. Um, 394 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: I was just thinking a lot about people of color 395 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: in nature in these fields that focus on the outdoors. 396 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: I love the outdoors. I really like long distance cycling 397 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: and trekking and all these other adventure support type things, 398 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,719 Speaker 1: but it's so rare that I see other people of Color, Um, 399 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: while I'm doing these things. So I know that you've 400 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: also talked about this a lot. I wanted to look 401 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: into why this is, you know, the history behind people 402 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: of color feeling unwelcome in the outdoors and what we 403 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: can do about it today. Yeah, you were talking about 404 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: a book that you read, Black and Brown faces in 405 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: America's wild places. Yeah, so it was just this book 406 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: that I came across a long time ago and it 407 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: was just the most simple concept. It was just photos 408 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: of people of Color in nature, like happy walking, you 409 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: know the greenery, and imagine that. Yeah, like and I 410 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: was actually shocked to see it because it made me 411 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: so happy first of all. But I was like why 412 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: does this look weird? It shouldn't look weird, like why 413 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: has society made there's something to marvel at, you know, 414 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: what treasure. There are some really beautiful photos of Dr 415 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King and his family in recreating in nature, 416 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: and you never see them right, like we always say 417 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: the same we see the same picture as a nuther 418 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: king and like these photos are beautiful and they also 419 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: seem like like strange, like Oh, weird, like you know 420 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: that family. Yeah, like like in like an in the forest. 421 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, it's just it's society has given us 422 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: this idea that, like, you know, we've been socialized to 423 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 1: believe that people of color don't exist in nature. Were 424 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: like urban only. Yeah, and like internalized it to the 425 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: point where I remember being like no, I don't do that. 426 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: Like white friends would be like we're gonna go camp. 427 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: I'm like no, I don't. WHO. I don't camp like this. 428 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: It's not I'm not. I have no concept of people 429 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: that look like me doing that. So it didn't never 430 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: occurred to me to engage with nature like in that 431 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: sense too. But I'm sure, like anything in this country 432 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: we have. You know, we can all we can draw 433 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: lines back to an earlier time where we completely misunderstood 434 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: our relationship to each other or the land. Right, right. Yeah, 435 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: it's interesting because I can remember even a few years ago, 436 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: in ads for companies like Arii or Patagonia, all these 437 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: outdoors brands. Um, it was all white people. And now 438 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,479 Speaker 1: they've slowly started to kind of realize that it's an issue, Um, 439 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: and you see more people of Color in those ads, 440 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: which gives me a lot of hope. I mean I 441 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: remember the first time I saw a South Asian person 442 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: in one of those ads and it was great. It's 443 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: like another one, but yeah, so it's changing. But if 444 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: we go way back and we think about this idea 445 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: of nature in general, we think about the white settlers 446 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: that came to what is now the United States and 447 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: how they really just tore apart the lifestyle of indigenous 448 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: peoples who lived on the land before then. They thought 449 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: of land as something that needed to be protected, preserved, 450 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: something that you live in harmony with rather than exploit. 451 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: In this very capitalist settler mindset, that eventually became the 452 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: norm and when settlers came, they introduced this idea of 453 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: an untouched wilderness, you know, just trees and forests and 454 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: rivers somewhere where nobody lived. And if we dig a 455 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: little deeper into that idea, you just see that that's 456 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: not true, because there are people who live with the land, Um, 457 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: and they live on it, but it's still, you know, 458 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: it's still respected. Um. And a proponent of this idea 459 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: was John Muir, who is a very famous environmentalist. I'm 460 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: sure everyone's heard his name, Um, Yep, and he said 461 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: that this lend should be set aside for recreation, to 462 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: fulfill an emotional need for wild places, which I thought 463 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: was just an absolutely ridiculous statement because there were so 464 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: many people, especially indigenous people, who are kicked off that 465 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: land and like what about their emotional needs and what 466 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: about their emotional fulfillment? Um. So, yeah, yeah, his, like his, him, 467 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: constantly like romanticizing like the wild lands that were basically 468 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: free of indigenous people, you know, really opened the door 469 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: for this kind of like exclusionary thinking and like who 470 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: gets to enjoy the environment? Like would always juxtapose like 471 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: the beauty of the landscapes but these dirty faced, half 472 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: happy you know, like just all kinds of like terrible 473 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: derogatory statements about indigenous people, black people, and he always 474 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: would say, like he's a quote that the indigenous people 475 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 1: quote seemed to have no right place in the landscape 476 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: which we saw. That kind of like extend to like like, 477 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: especially like in colonial Africa, as like game reserves are 478 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 1: opened up, the same idea of like, oh, people have 479 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: lived here for centuries and not, I don't know, this 480 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: is a theme park for white tourists. Like the Massai 481 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: people were just kicked out of certain place, like there's 482 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: a lot of history of just like the same thinking 483 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: of like hi, nature, nobody should be here unless it's 484 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: us just looking at it to just take a load off. 485 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: And and that's also like so reactionary. Like I agree 486 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: with what Y'all are both saying, and I think John 487 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: Muiror is such a good example because he is he 488 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: and his way are romanticized in our society because he 489 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: like he was like thinking about solutions right, like there 490 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: was a problem and he's like, Oh, a solution is 491 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: to do this. But I I get frustrated when, like 492 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: I feel like no one talks about the problem. He 493 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: was trying to find a solution for right, the problem 494 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: was that like white men on this continent like decimated 495 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: all of nature and then at some point we're like 496 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: Oh oh shoot, like like we all like if we 497 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: don't stop and like preserve a little bit, we're going 498 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: to have none left. I have an idea, like what 499 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: if we asked John Muir to like create national parks 500 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: for us? Like so, yeah, that was a solution. It 501 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: one harmed people, you know too. It didn't like work 502 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: the way we wanted it to. It was completely unfair, 503 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: unjust and unequitable, but also like like a better thing 504 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: to do would be to like have like not done 505 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: all of that like development of the land and destruction of, 506 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: you know, wildlife and wild communities in all places to 507 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: begin with. And no one's talking about that because that 508 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: was done by the same like Social Group of people. Right, 509 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: like Teddy Roosevelt was like we need national parks. Teddy 510 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,959 Speaker 1: Roosevelt like killed countless animals, like we cannot count how 511 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: many wild animals he killed across the world. He killed 512 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: so many animals like for fun, for sport, not to 513 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: eat them, right, and then he's the same person being 514 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: like hey, like let's do a national park thing. Like 515 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: that's being environmentally friendly. Like what like these people were 516 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: hypocrites and it is very unpopular in my line of 517 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: work to call that out. So I appreciate Y'all doing it. 518 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: I appreciate Y'all like trying to really Um reimagine how 519 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: we talk about environmental history, especially from the American perspective. But, 520 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: you know, just in general, like our society and like 521 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: the Environmental Movement does not largely accept that these people 522 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: were problematic. Yeah, which is wild, because I remember at 523 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: the time people were defending I remember, you know, the 524 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: head of the Sierra Club in the summer was sort 525 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: of like hey, if we're going to talk about Fort 526 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: Bragg and these confederates and like renaming stuff, we should 527 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: really look at people like John Muir and things like 528 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: that and a lot of people like. We can't be 529 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: applying these purity tests or trying to say look, well, 530 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: look at all the good that he did, sure, but 531 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: to then like ignore that and also say that there's 532 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: the way the like the early conservation movement was even 533 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: looking at like what people's relationship was to the land 534 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: kind of put us put a lot of terrible momentum 535 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: behind like this ideology. Now it is obviously worth like examining. 536 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: Does that like tend like? So what's as it stands right? 537 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: Does that tension still exists between conservationists where some people 538 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: are like we just got to keep this not and 539 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: that's it, just conserve that, versus people like, Oh, we're 540 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: completely ignoring the heaviest. Yeah, it's a it's a mess. 541 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: It's a mess, and I don't want anyone to think 542 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: that like it's doom and gloom and there's no one 543 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: to have hope, like that's not it. But basically, the 544 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: model of conservation, like toutricious point, has always been a 545 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: neo colonial, white supremacist, patriarchal model. Always like we don't 546 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: have a new one that is like globally accepted. And 547 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: so I would say like these days there are enough 548 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: like revolutionary radical thinkers in the conservation movement that are 549 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: like helping to reject these ideas. But in general, like 550 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: conservation is still a neo colonial force, like both within 551 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: and outside of this country. And I'll just like adding 552 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: a little science tidbit right, like instead of the like 553 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: social stuff, like one of the main science tidbits that 554 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: is also super challenging is that the majority of wild 555 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: animals and in particular, like large carnivores like I study, 556 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: like like the big, ferocious, like toothy ones, live outside 557 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: of protected areas, like most of them, like almost all 558 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: of them. So it's like many of them live in 559 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: a protected area, like if you go to yellowstone, you're 560 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: gonna see some bears, and that is cool, but most 561 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: bears live outside of yellowstone and outside of Yosemite and 562 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: outside of these places, in places that are not protected areas, 563 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: that are just like regular spots. Yeah, and so, yeah, 564 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: and so it's like obviously the protected area system hasn't 565 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: been a good model for many, many social reasons, but 566 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: also for like actual scientific reasons. It's not like hitting 567 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: it like the animals, like these, they're not like fenced. Yeah, 568 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: these animals aren't like Oh, like I just stepped outside 569 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: my batterary, like let me pull up a map and 570 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: make sure. Yeah, yeah, it's like it's like largely not working. 571 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: And yet like protected areas have popped up all over 572 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: the world because a few of these men, like from 573 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty years ago. I thought, like, you know, 574 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 1: didn't think twice and just like went for it to miles. 575 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: Your your point about like there there was a reckoning 576 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: with the you know, White Supremacist John Muir and, Um, 577 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 1: you know his role in founding the Um Sierra Club. 578 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: So I just went to Yosemite with my family and 579 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 1: it felt like we had traveled to like a monument 580 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 1: to John near like all parks and trails had signs 581 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: quoting his wisdom and there were, you know, stories about 582 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: him coming to the land for the first time, like 583 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: he had just discovered it. You know, Um, he looks 584 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: like a confederate general. Uh, and it's you know, you 585 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: can't decouple like his white supremacist viewpoint from all of 586 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: that and the work that he's D fight for. Is 587 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: it involves ignoring or outright being hostile towards, you know, 588 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: the people who were already there. Yeah, do they have 589 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: his quotes about how he spoke about black people in 590 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 1: Georgia when he first encountered them? They didn't well trained, 591 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: they were, as he put it. Yeah, like that's the 592 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,879 Speaker 1: funny thing. Is like, you know, we have this way 593 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: of being like but all this other good stuff, but 594 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: all this other good stuff, and that's true. That's true too, 595 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: and so is this. And you have to reckon with 596 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: all of that and you have to say how influential 597 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: this person was and how much like even when they say, 598 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: like well, he never like actually supported some of these 599 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: other racists that like hung on to every word he said, 600 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: it's like yeah, but he never actually denounced it either. 601 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: And that and that, and that creates the space for 602 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: other people to be like well, maybe. And he knew 603 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: that creating protected areas was destroying communities and like you 604 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: know whether it was like direct or indirectly killing people, 605 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: like literally like like ruining people's lives. It was people 606 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: of Color. So it was like that's great. Well, the 607 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: very first like public park, it wasn't officially Yosemite yet 608 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: because it was way back when, but it was where 609 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,240 Speaker 1: Yosemite is now, and that park was created by literally 610 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: just slaughtering hundreds of indigenous people. Um to like have 611 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,840 Speaker 1: that as a space of enjoyment and like hey, what 612 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: could be more American on this place where you ignore, 613 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: like you're having a good time, willfully ignore how this 614 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: space came about and go on with your day and 615 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: and like. And let me add because, and this is 616 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: like complicated for me as someone who like holds a 617 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: belief system but still has to like work within the contract, 618 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:52,400 Speaker 1: like the system that my job is but like, like 619 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 1: indigenous people still exist, like like they existed in abundance 620 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: in the past, but like they still exist in abundance. 621 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: And so, like it's not like they were slaughtered and 622 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: died and now we have these national parks. Like, like 623 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: folks deserve to have their land back, you know, like 624 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: they're asking for it there, demanding it, like it goes 625 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: without saying it is deserved. And so, you know, someone 626 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: like me, I often struggle with feeling so hypocritical because 627 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: I work in protected areas right, like I like study 628 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: large carnivores and protected areas, while holding the view that, like, 629 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: if I had any power here, I would give the 630 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,840 Speaker 1: land back. Like it doesn't make sense to me to 631 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: like be ringing the bell of like yeah, we're doing better, 632 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: we're creating conservation solutions, we have more animals when, like 633 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: people and communities are still obstructed from from from engaging 634 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: in and stewarding their land the way that they want to. 635 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: I have a good feeling that, like, a lot of 636 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: indigenous communities would choose to like do wonderful, quote unquote, 637 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: conservation work. They Proba. We wouldn't call it conservation, but 638 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:06,439 Speaker 1: just like conservation is work on these landscapes. But even 639 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: if they didn't want to do that, they should be 640 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 1: able to do whatever they want. And it's really like 641 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: attention that I have within myself. or I'm like okay, 642 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,799 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes I try to give myself a break 643 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: and say this is the best I can do, is 644 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 1: like do my job within the confines of the structure. 645 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: But land back, in America at least, is like something 646 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: that like, I think the people who believe in it 647 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: don't necessarily have the power to make it come true, 648 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: and that's really, really frustrating, because there are people out 649 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: there who have the power and land back is quite 650 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: literally anathema, like it's the antithesis of manifest destiny. It's 651 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: like what manned back? Uh No, we got here being 652 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: like God told me I could have this, and now 653 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: you're saying take back no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 654 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: like I feel like yeah, like people feel like that's 655 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,040 Speaker 1: like unfair, you know. I have to say. Actually, to 656 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: work in like parts of like like rural the rural 657 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: American West, which is always an adventure, Um, and it 658 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 1: is interesting because there's like a lot of folks out 659 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: there like, you know, again, I'll use like some cattle 660 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,760 Speaker 1: ranchers as an example, who are really kind of grappling 661 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 1: with the fact that like it's an uncertain future in 662 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: cattle ranching right like just because of the economy and 663 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: society and just the market, like it's just not it 664 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 1: used to be super profitable and it's not. That guarantee 665 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: isn't still there, and so a lot of folks are 666 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,439 Speaker 1: kind of like, oh, should our family continue to cattle ranch? 667 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: Should we like sell our land? And I just like 668 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: sit around there being like wow, wow, like a lot 669 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: of people still consider this to be their land because 670 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: they're great great granddaddy, you know, took it exactly. But 671 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: like I don't see people having conversations about like the 672 00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: equitable choice here. I had to imagine there's a scientific 673 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,959 Speaker 1: argument for all of that, you know, like I can't 674 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: imagine science should argue against like no, no, no, they're 675 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 1: gonna build their good custodians of that land and we 676 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 1: should there. No, yeah, there is a scientific argument. I 677 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: mean worldwide, globally. One thing that that we know and 678 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: that we have been able to prove as scientists is 679 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:24,839 Speaker 1: that poverty and environmental wellness are directly linked to each other. 680 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: So we cannot necessarily achieve like a healthy environment without 681 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: alleviating or eliminating poverty, and we can't alleviate or eliminate 682 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: poverty without creating a healthy, functioning environment and healthy ecosystems. 683 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 1: And so land back is a really good argument for 684 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,320 Speaker 1: alleviating poverty in many places, which thus helps the environment 685 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 1: be healthier and stronger and more resilient. And yet it's 686 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 1: like it's just like easy. You know, it's hard to 687 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: break out of these molds which have been taught and 688 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: to really decolonize this whole perspective and approach to conservation. 689 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,919 Speaker 1: But really, like, when communities of people are healthy and well, 690 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,439 Speaker 1: the environment is more likely to be healthy and well, 691 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,719 Speaker 1: and vice versa. Yeah, all right, let's take a quick break, 692 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 1: we'll come back, uh, and we'll keep talking about this. 693 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 1: And we're back, and just what you were talking about 694 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 1: right before we went to break reminded me of have 695 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: you guys watched the new bad bunny video that is 696 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 1: about Puerto Rico, and it's like it has a twenty 697 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: minute documentary attached to the end, but it's all about people, 698 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 1: just the exact same thing. You just run into this 699 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: logic over and over again of like people live here 700 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,880 Speaker 1: and then the forces of capitalism come through and just 701 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: on the basis of Um, you know, profitability, just kick 702 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: people off their land and it's like, I feel like 703 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: we must be coming to a a breaking point with 704 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: that logic being just the thing that everybody accepts as 705 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 1: a reality. But it does seem to still hold sway 706 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 1: so in so many different places that it profitability and 707 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, well, I have this, I have this rate 708 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,320 Speaker 1: of sale from two hundred years ago or whatever the people, 709 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 1: a people are using on their giant cattle ranches. But 710 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 1: that there has to be a way to break through 711 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: that it feels like, and it does feel like that 712 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: there's energy there. I just don't I don't know what 713 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:40,280 Speaker 1: the what the actual means of doing it are. Um, Patricia, 714 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,240 Speaker 1: you sorry, you were going to say something completely different 715 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,800 Speaker 1: before we started talking about bad bunny, but it's actually 716 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,800 Speaker 1: kind of related though, because yes, there is this idea of, 717 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,839 Speaker 1: you know, how far can capitalism go and exploiting land 718 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: and exploiting people, Etcetera, and just fun thing I wanted 719 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: to ask you about, Dr Ray, also pertaining to the 720 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: previous conversation, was, I think often this this like, how 721 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: to say it, I guess, this exploitation of land, or 722 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: like taking land from the people who live there, specifically 723 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,719 Speaker 1: indigenous people in local communities Um, can be masqueraded as 724 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 1: like environmental conservation, and so one thing I was reading 725 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: about is this movement called thirty by thirty, which is Um, 726 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:35,800 Speaker 1: essentially a movement that strives to designate thirty pc of 727 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,560 Speaker 1: the Earth's land as protected by the year T um. 728 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: And I found this really interesting because a lot of 729 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 1: the land that people are trying to designate as protected 730 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: are in the global south, Um, and you know, a 731 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: lot of indigenous people do live there currently, um. And 732 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,479 Speaker 1: so we talked about this problem of land being taken 733 00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: away from indigenous people through manifest destiny here in the 734 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,480 Speaker 1: unit it states, and it still is very much a 735 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:08,240 Speaker 1: problem both in the US and abroad. And it seems 736 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 1: that there's kind of this dilemma Um, where well intentioned 737 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: people Um want to protect nature, but by implementing these 738 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 1: rules they often just undermine, like the cultural traditions and 739 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,239 Speaker 1: values and livelihoods of the people that currently live there. Um. 740 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,440 Speaker 1: I remember I took a class on indigenous people's rights 741 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: in college and one thing they talked about was that 742 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: certain groups, Um, I think, like they hunt a lion 743 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 1: once a year and there's all these conservation groups that 744 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: say lions are endangered, who are not allowed to hunt them. 745 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,200 Speaker 1: But this is a tradition that's very much embedded in 746 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: these communities that have been going on forever and if 747 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,000 Speaker 1: they had been the ones making the rules in the 748 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,799 Speaker 1: first place, like, we would have had a lot more 749 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: lions than we do now. Similar to surveillance, it's like, 750 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: you know, surveilling land with drones to make sure that 751 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,840 Speaker 1: people aren't breaking these environmental rules, but that can be 752 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,239 Speaker 1: so harmful to these communities. So I'm just wondering your 753 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 1: take on this, like any potential solutions? How to we 754 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,920 Speaker 1: avoid this being another form of neo colonialism? Yeah, Trisia, 755 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: you know, easy question, but no, I appreciate you can 756 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,560 Speaker 1: answer the one about Jurassic Park. Can we talk about 757 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: bad funny now? I appreciate it, like a lot of people, 758 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 1: do not necessarily think about the role of incarceration and 759 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,920 Speaker 1: law enforcement when it comes to conservation, right and so like, 760 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 1: I will not derail us to talk about poaching or 761 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 1: illegal hunting. There's another way to call it, but, like 762 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: the incarceration rates of like men of color for killing 763 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,920 Speaker 1: wild animals, like, is very, very high and it is 764 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:01,040 Speaker 1: a huge, huge problem. And it is not keeping wild 765 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: animals from going extinct, right, like locking up more, you know, 766 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,920 Speaker 1: I'll say, like black African men, is not like keeping 767 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: the elephants around, right. And yet like every day we 768 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 1: are incarcerating more and more people for using natural resources, 769 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, that used to be available. So that is 770 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: actually a whole like project that I'm beginning in my 771 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: scholarship and bringing students into to kind of use like 772 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,920 Speaker 1: environmental science and data science to construct like a you know, 773 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 1: liberation argument. So anyway, like, I can't tell I have 774 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,800 Speaker 1: like some super radical views here, um, but for thirty 775 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,920 Speaker 1: by thirty, I do want to like, you know, like 776 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,400 Speaker 1: suggest a positive spin on it, and so you articulated 777 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 1: it really well, the thirty by thirties, this little tagline. 778 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,680 Speaker 1: But essentially the goal is to preserve of nature or 779 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:54,719 Speaker 1: the wilderness or the landscapes by and it largely has 780 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,200 Speaker 1: to do a climate change mitigation. It's like if we 781 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: are going to have a planet in an hundred years, 782 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,840 Speaker 1: like we actually need to like stop development on like 783 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: a large part of the land, and thirty by thirty 784 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,400 Speaker 1: is also supposed to be replicated in the ocean. Right, 785 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 1: like at least of the ocean needs to be protected 786 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 1: right from like any kind of development or human influence 787 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,319 Speaker 1: by otherwise we're going to have a rough future ahead 788 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,919 Speaker 1: of us. And when you ask for solutions, I think 789 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,000 Speaker 1: a really good one, and I've contributed some of my 790 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: knowledge to America's thirty by thirty initiative, is so you 791 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 1: have like what we call like mixed use landscapes, right, 792 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:36,640 Speaker 1: like landscapes where like people live, there is like economic prosperity, 793 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,080 Speaker 1: but we are not being destructive on that land and 794 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 1: we are not like doing harm to the land by 795 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: using it. And if we can make sure that especially 796 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:54,359 Speaker 1: communities like have economic mobility on those landscapes in an 797 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 1: environmentally friendly way, then I think we will hit some 798 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,160 Speaker 1: wind wind solutions there. So we can't do we can't 799 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,480 Speaker 1: make thirty by thirty just like, you know, more protected 800 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,000 Speaker 1: areas like in the same model, you know. But if 801 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,719 Speaker 1: we can consider like urban green spaces a part of 802 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: that thirty percent, if we can consider, you know, like 803 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,920 Speaker 1: little stretches on the side of the highway, you know, 804 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 1: a part of that thirty percent. If we can consider, 805 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,360 Speaker 1: you know, areas. You know, even farm land can be 806 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,520 Speaker 1: part of that thirty percent, as long as you're not 807 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,440 Speaker 1: like spraying pesticides and, you know, like planting like non native, 808 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,400 Speaker 1: you know, plants or grasses, like why not, you know, 809 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:34,960 Speaker 1: as long as you would allow some birds, you know, 810 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,359 Speaker 1: to land like that could be it. So there are 811 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,840 Speaker 1: some creative ways and I think in particular, like some 812 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:46,440 Speaker 1: community lead ways, like allowing communities to decide, like what 813 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,640 Speaker 1: is a healthy way to use this land? Um, it 814 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:51,080 Speaker 1: could be a really great way that we can meet 815 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 1: those goals. You know. With that said, it's almost three 816 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,880 Speaker 1: so we definitely need to empower like like thought leaders 817 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:04,560 Speaker 1: who lead with equity and justice, like to be the 818 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:08,439 Speaker 1: decision makers here. But you know, I do know some people, 819 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:14,080 Speaker 1: some awesome dope, open minded, like radical people of color 820 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 1: who are part of these initiatives and I have a 821 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,759 Speaker 1: lot of hope that that we can make it work right. 822 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:20,880 Speaker 1: And it just and it seems like so much of 823 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,040 Speaker 1: it too, is like when just thinking of John Muir, 824 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,160 Speaker 1: like just his initial idea of like save all this 825 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,879 Speaker 1: coordinate off, there's people there. Get him the funk out, 826 00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:32,400 Speaker 1: because we have to keep this pristine like that flawed, 827 00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:37,759 Speaker 1: just overly simplified way of thinking. It's just echoes constantly 828 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 1: right in so many ways of basically not necessarily like 829 00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,719 Speaker 1: that specific way, but to say we can't consider the 830 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,239 Speaker 1: people that live on the land for like as like 831 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,400 Speaker 1: that's just not even a thought that enters. It's just 832 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,439 Speaker 1: that you're actually in the way. And like this sort 833 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,040 Speaker 1: of idea of not considering like the totality of like 834 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,239 Speaker 1: what the human experiences as it relates to things, I 835 00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 1: think has existed. Like I was reading about how that 836 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,640 Speaker 1: people who wrote that like population bomb book had to 837 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,520 Speaker 1: come around and be like we were so fucking wrong. Yeah, 838 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,080 Speaker 1: like this was nonsense, like we just came up with 839 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 1: fucking very Murian thinking or whatever. They were basically like. 840 00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,440 Speaker 1: They're basically like it's over population in the global south 841 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,640 Speaker 1: that's the problem with this planet, not all the over 842 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:28,800 Speaker 1: consumption and irresponsible resource use from like Western countries, like 843 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,600 Speaker 1: we're good because we only have one or two kids, 844 00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,359 Speaker 1: even though we destroy the entire earth, but like these 845 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,320 Speaker 1: people in large families that, like you, they would like 846 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,279 Speaker 1: they want these families, and then they came around there 847 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 1: like yeah, so we were all wrong about that. The 848 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,200 Speaker 1: way towards that is about like having access to like abortion, 849 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,960 Speaker 1: like like racial equity, gender equality. Those are actually the 850 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:57,440 Speaker 1: things that we need to have to to like to survive, 851 00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:01,560 Speaker 1: and it's funny how the like ignoreing those things. Uh, 852 00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:03,880 Speaker 1: like it's always happening at our own peril, just for 853 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:05,640 Speaker 1: people to come back like, you know, good for them 854 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:08,120 Speaker 1: that they were like, okay, that was totally fucked up. 855 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,879 Speaker 1: We left so much it out to ignore that fucking take. 856 00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,000 Speaker 1: But so many conservationists still kind of have this idea of, 857 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,200 Speaker 1: like the populatic, it's too much, we gotta do something 858 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,840 Speaker 1: about this, while completely ignoring the equality dimension of it 859 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:25,680 Speaker 1: and and understanding like the aspects of hegemony, egual oppression 860 00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 1: and things like that, and without acknowledging like how we 861 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,160 Speaker 1: got to this place of having so many environmental needs 862 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:38,200 Speaker 1: like that was driven entirely by like white male dominance, 863 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,120 Speaker 1: white supremacist patriarchy, got us to this place of trouble. 864 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,320 Speaker 1: Like you cannot, like you cannot create any other argument, 865 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,040 Speaker 1: and yet these people are like put the blame everywhere else, 866 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 1: as we can't accept that, like those people that were 867 00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,720 Speaker 1: the hunting that they've been doing for centuries. Is the problem? 868 00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,560 Speaker 1: Not when we caught wind of some the resources killing, 869 00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,719 Speaker 1: the killing one lion a year, like, man, we can't 870 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,160 Speaker 1: do that anymore because we won't have any lions left. 871 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,440 Speaker 1: It's like all the lions you'll killed during colonialism, like 872 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,720 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of them. That was that was different. 873 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,279 Speaker 1: Sometimes like that, they're one lion a year. Argument is 874 00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,839 Speaker 1: like when they're like, you guys got to use these 875 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,319 Speaker 1: different light bulbs, you're burning down the fucking earth. It's like, well, 876 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,520 Speaker 1: even that's not really the case. You're you're trying to 877 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,799 Speaker 1: put it on me about all this other funk that's 878 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,839 Speaker 1: going on. But the bonus on the individual, which kind 879 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,920 Speaker 1: of brings me back to what I was saying about recycling. 880 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,120 Speaker 1: You'll like it's like there is a system out there 881 00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,719 Speaker 1: that needs to be changed and like please recycle, like 882 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 1: keep it up. But like whether or not you aren't 883 00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:47,919 Speaker 1: active in recycling is not as important about as whether 884 00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:52,520 Speaker 1: or not, like these corporate machines can be redirected to 885 00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:58,239 Speaker 1: stop harming the environment, like in full force. Yeah, yeah, 886 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 1: I really liked what you said. Dr Worry about like, 887 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:05,120 Speaker 1: you know, green spaces outside of just a national park 888 00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:08,239 Speaker 1: are a completely protected place. Like just thinking about all 889 00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:12,000 Speaker 1: the Community Gardens in New York, like the Little Gardens 890 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,480 Speaker 1: on the block or the Little Park, and I was 891 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,520 Speaker 1: just thinking that that, you know, if we designate that, 892 00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,480 Speaker 1: is nature too. It's an opportunity for people of color, 893 00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:25,000 Speaker 1: communities of colors, to feel connected to nature without going 894 00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,279 Speaker 1: on some big trip to Yosemite or Acadia, a lot 895 00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:32,360 Speaker 1: of people can't afford. And I feel like the just 896 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,240 Speaker 1: the John Your quotes, just going back to him, treat 897 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:40,120 Speaker 1: nature like like he's describing it like a pharmaceutical ad 898 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,759 Speaker 1: for some Psych Med like it's all about like how 899 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,960 Speaker 1: it makes you feel, and it's it's almost still in 900 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:51,719 Speaker 1: that consumption. Yeah, you can, you consume this landscape, but 901 00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,560 Speaker 1: that also puts it back to him to be in 902 00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,040 Speaker 1: a position of power to design the landscape in a 903 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:04,640 Speaker 1: way that is, you know, subjectively beautiful and right, creating 904 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,560 Speaker 1: this effect, and it kind of like makes a business 905 00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,360 Speaker 1: case for conservation. Like so we should, we should have 906 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:15,479 Speaker 1: like healthy, thriving nature so that like it can help 907 00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,759 Speaker 1: our bodies, minds and spirits instead of like we're a 908 00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,719 Speaker 1: part of nature, like we should offer respect to this 909 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:27,239 Speaker 1: planet that like was here before humans were, you know. Yeah, yeah, 910 00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:30,080 Speaker 1: and I read that there's still so many things in 911 00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:34,520 Speaker 1: national parks that make them unfriendly and unwelcoming to visitors 912 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,759 Speaker 1: of color. Um. First of all, of the visitors to 913 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:43,360 Speaker 1: national parks are White, Um, which is like totally disproportionate 914 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,960 Speaker 1: to the actual demographics of the country. Um. But then 915 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:51,759 Speaker 1: there's also just smaller things like, Um, the uniforms of 916 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,440 Speaker 1: park rangers can be changed, because now they look like 917 00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,719 Speaker 1: police uniforms in a lot of places and that's not 918 00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,920 Speaker 1: very welcoming to people. And there is all so a 919 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,200 Speaker 1: lot of policing that happens in national parks, like like 920 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,360 Speaker 1: they have like warded like game wardens and stuff, like 921 00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,880 Speaker 1: they are law enforcement. Um. And there are, you know, 922 00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:13,040 Speaker 1: there's been some cover ups in the last few years, 923 00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:18,239 Speaker 1: but there have been like, you know, shootings of unarmed 924 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:23,600 Speaker 1: like men of color in national parks and protected areas, Um, 925 00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,879 Speaker 1: just like some of the issues we haven't with the police. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 926 00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,080 Speaker 1: and it makes me think too, Um, Christian Cooper, who 927 00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:36,319 Speaker 1: is the bird watcher in central park who is kind 928 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,560 Speaker 1: of like attacked by this white lady, Um for no reason. 929 00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,880 Speaker 1: I mean he was just watching birds and there's actually 930 00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,800 Speaker 1: studies as well, or surveys that show that white people 931 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,960 Speaker 1: are uncomfortable with people of color sharing a natural space 932 00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,080 Speaker 1: with them, which is like how racist do you have 933 00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,960 Speaker 1: to be to admit that, to survey even you know well, 934 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,560 Speaker 1: and it kind of goes back to like miles was saying, 935 00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,120 Speaker 1: you know, about like camping, like growing up it was 936 00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,239 Speaker 1: like Oh, like, I can't go cap camping with my 937 00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,920 Speaker 1: like I didn't even do boy scouts because, honestly, I 938 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:11,760 Speaker 1: was like that's not a thing. I've never seen somebody 939 00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,839 Speaker 1: who looks like me do. That not a thing. But also, 940 00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:17,040 Speaker 1: like you could imagine that like maybe we don't vocalize 941 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,480 Speaker 1: of it, it can feel very unsafe, like like black, 942 00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:22,880 Speaker 1: like I'm black, so I will speak from the black experience. 943 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,520 Speaker 1: Like black folks are unsafe, like at the grocery store, 944 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:32,160 Speaker 1: like we are not safe like in regular places in 945 00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,759 Speaker 1: the urban, suburban, you know, like don't let it be rural, 946 00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:39,200 Speaker 1: you know environment. So let alone like under the cover 947 00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:46,280 Speaker 1: of darkness in like a remote place, like our physical safety, 948 00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,000 Speaker 1: like it's not worth it to go camping if you 949 00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:50,560 Speaker 1: don't come back, you know, like it's just it's just 950 00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:55,000 Speaker 1: not and so, considering we're still working to like remain safe. 951 00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: Just living our regular lives. Like it can feel like 952 00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,239 Speaker 1: a huge risk. You'd be like I'll go ahead and 953 00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:04,520 Speaker 1: have like a lot of stress and high blood pressure. 954 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,640 Speaker 1: And they get that benefit from nature because like as 955 00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,400 Speaker 1: better than being dead. Not to say that like the 956 00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,920 Speaker 1: outdoors is dangerous, but America hasn't proven to us that 957 00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:18,800 Speaker 1: it's not or that we're welcome. I mean like a 958 00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,640 Speaker 1: MoD Aubrey right, was shot and killed two years ago 959 00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:26,760 Speaker 1: while like going for a jog like adjacent to a park. 960 00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,200 Speaker 1: You know what I mean, like, like just for existing 961 00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,280 Speaker 1: as a black person, racist people shot him to death. Like, 962 00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,160 Speaker 1: you know, we get feedback, we get examples of how 963 00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:39,400 Speaker 1: we are unwelcome or it is not safe for us 964 00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,000 Speaker 1: to be in these places. You know, in order to 965 00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,000 Speaker 1: disrupt that, I try to use myself and the people 966 00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,240 Speaker 1: I know, and there are like some really great groups 967 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,080 Speaker 1: out there that create like safe experiences for people of 968 00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,960 Speaker 1: Caming the outdoors, that break down those stereotypes that, you know, 969 00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,640 Speaker 1: really try to prove that we belong. You know, like it. 970 00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,200 Speaker 1: It can be a wonderful experience. You know, I camp 971 00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,200 Speaker 1: for a living. You know, like to find the animals 972 00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:06,280 Speaker 1: that I'm looking for and that I'm studying. Like I 973 00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,880 Speaker 1: pitch a tent and I camp, often by myself. I 974 00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:10,760 Speaker 1: am happy to say that there have been places that 975 00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,040 Speaker 1: I thought I was going to be in danger or 976 00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:16,680 Speaker 1: have a horrible experience, and I literally never have like 977 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:22,320 Speaker 1: the horrible racist experiences that I have are like in towns, 978 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,440 Speaker 1: you know, not in not in the outdoors, in academia, 979 00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,880 Speaker 1: in my institutions, like, you know, in the cattle ranching 980 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,560 Speaker 1: towns too, though, but you know, like, not when I 981 00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:34,760 Speaker 1: am pitching my tent Um. And so, like I am 982 00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,080 Speaker 1: here to say, I understand the perceptions because they're rooted 983 00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:41,320 Speaker 1: in reality and also, I hope, to serve as one 984 00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:45,080 Speaker 1: of many examples that, like, the outdoors can be a wonderful, 985 00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:49,320 Speaker 1: beautiful place, you know, to find joy and to find 986 00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,919 Speaker 1: inspiration and passion. And you know, there are so many 987 00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,480 Speaker 1: awesome groups out there like really trying to, you know, 988 00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:01,840 Speaker 1: reimagine what equitable, inclusive outdoors looks like. HMM, well, I 989 00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,760 Speaker 1: think that's a great place to close. We're so grateful 990 00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:09,760 Speaker 1: that you came and guested on our show. Dr Ray. 991 00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:14,240 Speaker 1: Where can people find you and follow you and learn 992 00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:17,800 Speaker 1: more about what you're doing. Oh, so, I you know, 993 00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:21,360 Speaker 1: I'm a millennial, so you know, we invented social media. 994 00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,960 Speaker 1: I try to have a little presence there. You can 995 00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,280 Speaker 1: find me on, you know, all the social media channels 996 00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:30,960 Speaker 1: at Ray win, grant Um and, in particular, my really 997 00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,280 Speaker 1: amazing I'm not just tooting my own horn. It's an 998 00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,800 Speaker 1: amazing podcast that I have with CDs nature. It is 999 00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:42,400 Speaker 1: so good. Season two drops September is phenomenal. It features 1000 00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,640 Speaker 1: a lot of my own stories from my crazy life 1001 00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,920 Speaker 1: in the wilderness, but also stories from some of my 1002 00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,280 Speaker 1: colleagues that I hand selected, some of the best wildlife 1003 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,720 Speaker 1: ecologists from around the world. They may or may not 1004 00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,320 Speaker 1: all happen to be people of Color. Get to know them. 1005 00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,000 Speaker 1: They are going to share some of their wild dist experiences. 1006 01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,600 Speaker 1: So going wild on PVs, nature, Um, wherever you get 1007 01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:08,800 Speaker 1: your podcasts, all the platforms. HAS IT September? Join us, 1008 01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:11,680 Speaker 1: and is there a tweet or some of the work 1009 01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,880 Speaker 1: of social media you've been enjoying? Oh yeah, no, I 1010 01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:16,920 Speaker 1: did think of a good tweet. And I don't know 1011 01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:20,440 Speaker 1: what the rules are about promoting brands, but if you 1012 01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:24,360 Speaker 1: take to twitter you might see that the company Patagonia 1013 01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:28,439 Speaker 1: has been trending, and that's because that brand that makes, 1014 01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,480 Speaker 1: you know, outdoor gear and clothes and stuff, has recently 1015 01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:35,800 Speaker 1: done something pretty radical by essentially um no longer being 1016 01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:39,560 Speaker 1: a for profit company where profits go to people, but 1017 01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:42,760 Speaker 1: now the for profit, the profits from the company, go 1018 01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:48,760 Speaker 1: directly to the planet, Um in particular, to communities and 1019 01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:52,200 Speaker 1: groups that are fighting for indigenous rights, to the environment 1020 01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:59,360 Speaker 1: and some climate change solutions. Is, dope, very cool, Tricia. 1021 01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:06,600 Speaker 1: A song will do that next, right. Yeah, Trusia. Where 1022 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,800 Speaker 1: can people find you, follow you, and is there a 1023 01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:14,000 Speaker 1: work of social media you've been enjoying? Yes, so, actually, 1024 01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:16,480 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if I'M GEN Z or millennial. I 1025 01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:22,560 Speaker 1: think I'm technically. Yeah, so you don't have social media. So, yeah, 1026 01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:25,720 Speaker 1: I was gonna say if you have to ask them 1027 01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:32,400 Speaker 1: in so gen Z. Okay. Um, so I don't have 1028 01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:37,040 Speaker 1: social media. Um, you can listen to more stories similar 1029 01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:39,080 Speaker 1: to the topics that you've heard me talk about on 1030 01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,640 Speaker 1: t DC UM, on my podcast, people place power. It's 1031 01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:45,880 Speaker 1: about activism around the world. Um. And yes, so I 1032 01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:49,560 Speaker 1: don't use twitter much, but I just opened it. That's 1033 01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:52,040 Speaker 1: why you're so happy, tricia. That's why you're so happy, 1034 01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,480 Speaker 1: because you don't use twitter. I found a video that 1035 01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:58,760 Speaker 1: contributes to happiness as well, and it's a video of 1036 01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:04,080 Speaker 1: a dog holding a bunch of carrots, like their hair. Yes, 1037 01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:07,040 Speaker 1: and there's all these rabbits and like a little pig 1038 01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,280 Speaker 1: eating it, eating the carrots from the dogs. So it's 1039 01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:18,440 Speaker 1: a happy, um natural video of I love how calm 1040 01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:21,560 Speaker 1: the dog is to like, the dog knows it's feeding 1041 01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,320 Speaker 1: the rabbits, like, and some rabbits are eating the Greens 1042 01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,040 Speaker 1: of the carrots. Someone eating the carrots. Yeah, I saw 1043 01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:29,959 Speaker 1: that too. A warmed warmed my heart. And the little 1044 01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:32,120 Speaker 1: pig that's in there too, it's like he doesn't even 1045 01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:35,920 Speaker 1: know he's different from the bunnies. Yeah, check it out. 1046 01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:43,240 Speaker 1: He doesn't even know he's different from doesn't matter. Yeah, 1047 01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:45,960 Speaker 1: I know that. Take that's like he's they don't even care. 1048 01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:51,439 Speaker 1: The Sunny, unruined disposition of someone who doesn't have twitter. Yeah, 1049 01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,720 Speaker 1: doesn't know he's different. Long Man, last miles. Where can 1050 01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:57,800 Speaker 1: people find you with the tweet you've been enjoying? Find 1051 01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:00,160 Speaker 1: me on twitter and instagram at miles of gray. Want 1052 01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,600 Speaker 1: to hear Jack and I talk basketball? Check out our 1053 01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:06,800 Speaker 1: basketball podcast. Myles and Jack Got Mad boost uh, and 1054 01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:08,400 Speaker 1: then also if you want to hear me talk about 1055 01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:11,360 Speaker 1: my favorite reality show, Ninety Day fiance, check out my 1056 01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:15,920 Speaker 1: other podcast for twenty fiance. Yeah, read between the lines. Um, 1057 01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:19,160 Speaker 1: let's see some tweets that I like. The first one 1058 01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,520 Speaker 1: is from at perfect sweeties and it says I've been 1059 01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:26,080 Speaker 1: taking some notes and there's a venn diagram. That's British 1060 01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:29,480 Speaker 1: people and ants. On the left side of the venn 1061 01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,280 Speaker 1: diagram that doesn't overlap. For British people it says beans 1062 01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:35,040 Speaker 1: on toast. On the right side, where it says ants, 1063 01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,240 Speaker 1: that doesn't overlap, it says can lift up to five 1064 01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:40,160 Speaker 1: thousand times their own weight. Then in the middle of 1065 01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,880 Speaker 1: their overlap, the ven diagram reads weird loyalty to their Queen, 1066 01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:46,880 Speaker 1: innate instinct to line up single file and travel in 1067 01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:50,120 Speaker 1: a queue, takes things that aren't there's back to their colony, 1068 01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:57,880 Speaker 1: love for crumbly pastricks. Damn, that is God him. Love 1069 01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:00,280 Speaker 1: that one. And then the last one is from at 1070 01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:02,800 Speaker 1: Tal Muddic. I'm E D I see tweeted. The first 1071 01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:05,200 Speaker 1: time I heard of the go mad gallon of milk 1072 01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:08,600 Speaker 1: a day diet, I laughed my ass off. There's no 1073 01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:13,400 Speaker 1: way I'm halving my milk intake for a diet. I 1074 01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:18,120 Speaker 1: had that one too. Um. You can find me on 1075 01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:21,960 Speaker 1: twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien and at Myles and Jack. 1076 01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:26,840 Speaker 1: I'm at boost e's tweet. I enjoyed. Uh No, we 1077 01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:30,160 Speaker 1: sa not. Now he sings. Actually, is how you're going 1078 01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:41,080 Speaker 1: to pronounce that now? No, we sobs. Um. tweeted unemployed 1079 01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:44,400 Speaker 1: guy at two PM. Man, the group chat has been silent. Um, 1080 01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:48,480 Speaker 1: and then rose at sleepless in Kentucky. tweeted this man. 1081 01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,920 Speaker 1: Poured me three shots thinking I was going to get horny. Sir, 1082 01:04:52,200 --> 01:05:02,120 Speaker 1: I'm about to start freestyling a response. Do not put 1083 01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:07,960 Speaker 1: those shook one's instrumental. Uh. You can find us on 1084 01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:11,160 Speaker 1: twitter at daily Zekeeis, right, the daily Zeygeist, on instagram. 1085 01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:14,000 Speaker 1: We have facebook, Fan page and website, daily zekeeis dot com, 1086 01:05:14,040 --> 01:05:17,360 Speaker 1: where we post our episodes and our footnotes. We link 1087 01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:19,800 Speaker 1: off to the information that we talked about in today's episode, 1088 01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:22,640 Speaker 1: as well as a song that we think you might enjoy. Hey, miles, 1089 01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:25,000 Speaker 1: what song do we think people might enjoy? There's a 1090 01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:28,320 Speaker 1: new Tam and Paula and guerrilla's song out that. I 1091 01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,080 Speaker 1: was like, what, I haven't heard Kevin Parker's voice in 1092 01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:33,200 Speaker 1: a little bit. It's called new gold. I think it's 1093 01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:36,760 Speaker 1: technically guerrilla's song featuring Tame Apolo, but look, whatever band 1094 01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:39,160 Speaker 1: you like, pretend it's their track, but they're all both 1095 01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:42,360 Speaker 1: on it. So here's new gold, gorilla's Tam Apolo. Check 1096 01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:45,360 Speaker 1: it out alright. Well, daily Zychis is a production of 1097 01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:47,439 Speaker 1: by heart radio. For more podcast for my heart radio, 1098 01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:50,320 Speaker 1: visit the I heart radio APP, apple podcast or wherever 1099 01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:52,240 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. That is going to 1100 01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:54,000 Speaker 1: do it for us this morning. We are back this 1101 01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:57,160 Speaker 1: afternoon to tell you what's trending and we'll talk to hell. 1102 01:05:57,240 --> 01:05:58,240 Speaker 1: Then Bite Y