1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:05,519 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: Arthur Conan Doyle, world famous as the author of the 3 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 2: Sherlock Holmes stories, played real life detective himself and freed 4 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: a man wrongly convicted of murder. Why on earth wasn't 5 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 2: this story better known. 6 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked and the co host 9 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 10 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 11 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 12 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 13 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: Wicked Presumer Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 15 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 16 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: behind the stories. One of the most incredible stories in 17 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: true crime is the tale of Arthur Conan Doyle and 18 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: how he helped free a man who was innocent of murder. 19 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: Author Martlite Fox offers us a deep dive into the 20 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: characters in her book, Conan Doyle for the defense. Tell 21 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: me where it makes the most sense to start with 22 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: this story, which we're going to unravel like a Sherlock 23 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: Holmes mystery. Who do we want to start with the 24 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: victim or the would be killer the victim? 25 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 2: And it really does start on the proverbial dark and 26 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: stormy night. This is Glasgow, Scotland, a few days before 27 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 2: Christmas nineteen oh eight, and it was indeed raining. It's 28 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:56,919 Speaker 2: Glasgow after all, And on that night a wealthy eighty 29 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: two year old woman lived in Glasgow all her life, 30 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 2: very very rich. Her name was Marion Gilchrist. On that 31 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 2: night she was brutally murdered, beaten and bludgeoned to death 32 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: by a mysterious intruder. Now, Miss Gilchrist was a jewelry collector, 33 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 2: and she kept thousands and thousands of pounds of jewelry 34 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: secreted in odd places in her elegant Glasgow flat. And 35 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: this is thousands of pounds in nineteen o eight. It 36 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 2: was a lot of swag. Despite this fact, when the 37 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: police came and interviewed Miss Gilchrist's maid, the maid reported 38 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 2: that only a single item of jewelry was missing, a 39 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 2: diamond brooch in the shape of a crescent moon. That 40 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: was the primary clue the police had to go on 41 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 2: and it led to all of the terrible events that followed. 42 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: So where was the maid when this happened? Was she 43 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: in the house or did she leave and come back? 44 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 2: She was out for just ten minutes, from about seven 45 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: at night to ten after seven, buying the evening paper. 46 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 2: When she returned, she saw, to her surprise, she said, 47 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: a dark haired man exit Missus Gilchrist's flat and tear 48 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 2: down the stairs of the apartment building and out into 49 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 2: the street. The maid, Helen Lambead, then entered the flat 50 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 2: to find her mistress severely beaten and expiring on the floor. 51 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: She died a few minutes later. 52 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: So, if you are a member of the police force 53 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: and investigator in nineteen oh eight in Glasgow, where do 54 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: you go first? What did they do? They start interviewing 55 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: obviously the housekeeper and her family, I presume to. 56 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: My knowledge, the maid's family was not interviewed. Missus Gilchrist, 57 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: the murder victim, had little family. She was, in the 58 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 2: diction of the a spinster. She was not on great 59 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 2: terms with her nieces and nephews. She seemed, frankly rather 60 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: a nasty woman, though you know, a very upright righteous, 61 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: you know, good church going Scottish lady of the Edwardian age, 62 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 2: and again fabulously rich. So the police really had only 63 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 2: two things to go on at first, the missing diamond 64 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: brooch and this mysterious dark haired man that fled the apartment. 65 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: A couple of days later, the police received a tip 66 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: that a local man, an immigrant German Jewish gambler named 67 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 2: Oscar Slater, had pawned a diamond crescent brooch. Ah, they 68 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 2: think this is a serious clue. So they take the 69 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 2: maid Helen, to the pawn shop and she immediately says, 70 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: it's the wrong brooch. My mistress brooch had a single 71 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: row of diamonds, and this brooch in the pawn shop 72 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 2: is set with three rows of diamonds. As Arthur Conan 73 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 2: Doyle later said, at that moment, the very bottom of 74 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: the case should have dropped out, for it meant that 75 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: if Slater were indeed guilty, it would have meant that, 76 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 2: by pure chance, out of all the men in Glasgow, 77 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 2: the police had pursued the right man, which of course 78 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: was not the case. So the police knew within a 79 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 2: week of the crime that Oscar Slater's Broach was not 80 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: the one missing from the crime scene. They knew that 81 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 2: Oscar Slater was not their man, and yet they arrested him. 82 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 2: They framed up a case against him, they railroaded him. 83 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 2: He was tried, he was convicted. And the question, of 84 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: course is why, knowing full well that Oscar Slater was 85 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 2: not their man, did the police go after him anyway. 86 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: Well, let's go back a little bit for some historical contexts. 87 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: In nineteen oh a in this area of Scotland, is 88 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: this high crime? Is there the expectation of an older 89 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: woman could be alone in her home and have it 90 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 1: not be broken into. Was this a surprising crime, Well, 91 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: it was shocking. 92 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: Given the ethos of Edwardian bourgeoisie. It was very much 93 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: shocking in the context of its time and place. M 94 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 2: Missus Gilchrist, of course lived in a very fashionable part 95 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: of town and vashal people were not supposed to be 96 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: crime victims. A woman of reading and bearing like eighty 97 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: two year old wealthy Marian Gilchrist was not supposed to 98 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 2: have anything like this toucher. It was a time of 99 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 2: rising immigration, including the immigration of many Central and Eastern 100 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 2: European Jews, and therefore in Britain as a whole, and 101 00:06:55,080 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: in Scotland as well, a corresponding uptick in British anti Semitism. 102 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 2: And it was the classic thing we saw then we 103 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 2: see it now where for various reasons, as a society modernizes, 104 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: as urbanization takes hold, as crime rises, the upper classes 105 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: get very anxious. They get very self protective of life 106 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: and limb and property, and they need to locate their 107 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: anxiety in some bogeyman that the historian Peter Gay brilliantly 108 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: calls the convenient other. Today we call it profiling. And 109 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: of course that kind of behavior was alive and well 110 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: in nineteen oh eight when Nis Gilchrist was murdered an 111 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 2: Oscar Slater, foreigner immigrant and by the standards of the 112 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: day lowlife. He earned his living as a gambler. He 113 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: frequented pool halls, he earned money at the racetrack and 114 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: card playing, and even before the murder the Glasgow police 115 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 2: had Oscar Slater in their sights to try to have 116 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: him arrested as a pimp. It's not clear that he 117 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: ever was a pimp, but the charge they sought to press. 118 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: This is the one moment of levity in an otherwise 119 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 2: dark story was called immoral housekeeping. Now I've been guilty 120 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: of im moral housekeeping myself in a somewhat different way. 121 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: So it becomes very clear why did the police railroad 122 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 2: Oscar Slater, knowing he was not guilty of the murder, 123 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 2: was that he was someone they wanted to run out 124 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 2: of Glasgow. Anyway, along comes this terrible murder with enough 125 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence that they have plausible deniability to make a 126 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 2: case against this immigrant jew and it's pretty clear their 127 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 2: thinking was, we want to get rid of Slater. He 128 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb, 129 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: and of course he very nearly was hanged. 130 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: Let's go back and talk about Oscar Slater as a character. 131 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit just about what his life 132 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: was like, and what his life was like in Scotland. 133 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 2: Oscar Slater was born to a working class, I would say, 134 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 2: actually working poor Jewish family in Silesia. He was the 135 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: favorite child of the family. His father was a baker 136 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 2: who I believe was out of work a lot due 137 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 2: to certain physical infirmities. The family lived in just this dusty, 138 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: little one horse coal mining town in Silesia. Oscar was happy, 139 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 2: go lucky, carefree, footloose. As a young man, there was 140 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 2: nothing in this town for him, so he roamed all 141 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: over Europe. He lived in Hamburg, he lived in London, 142 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 2: and he lived a couple of times prior to nineteen 143 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 2: oh eight in Glasgow, so he was already to some 144 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 2: extent in the sights of the Glasgow police. He billed 145 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 2: himself as a dentist and a dealer in precious stones, 146 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: but he supported his rather idwnified life. He was a 147 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 2: beau brummel who dressed in incredible threads and lived very 148 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 2: much above what Edwardian bourgeoisie would consider to be his 149 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 2: station in life, and he supported this lifestyle through racetrack, betting, 150 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: card playing and billiards. He lived with his French mistress 151 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: and so Oscar Slater was tarred by association with his mistress, 152 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: and though he was never demonstrated to be a pimp, 153 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: the Glasgow police assumed that he was and were trying 154 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 2: to build a case against him as a pimp by 155 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 2: the time he resettled in Glasgow for his third stay 156 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: there in the autumn of nineteen oh eight, about two 157 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: months before the murder of Marian Gilchrist, a woman who 158 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 2: by the way he had never met and of whom 159 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: he had never heard until he was suddenly arrested for 160 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 2: her murder. 161 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 1: Did he have an alibi? 162 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: He did, indeed, which the police suppressed. The case against 163 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: him as it unspooled over time was just a quagmire 164 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 2: of the subornation of perjury, the suppression of exculpatory evidence. 165 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: Witnesses who could have alibied him were never called. Other 166 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 2: witnesses were told what to say on the stand to 167 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: incriminate him, and the entire case, from start to finish, 168 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:47,839 Speaker 2: was a textbook example of how police and prosecutors ken 169 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 2: railroad an innocent man. 170 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: So he is convicted and he is sentenced to the 171 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: death penalty. 172 00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: Right, that's right. Another thing that police seized pond to 173 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 2: paint Oscar Slater as guilty. Marian Gilchrist was murdered on 174 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 2: December twenty first, nineteen oh eight. A few days later, 175 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 2: around Christmas time, Slater and his mistress sail out of 176 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 2: Glasgow on a long land trip to New York. There 177 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 2: was an economic depression going on in Scotland at the time. 178 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 2: Even for a gambler like Slater, times were hard and 179 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 2: he wanted to make a new start in America. He 180 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 2: planned this trip for a long time. Needless to say, 181 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: the police chose to see it as evidence of guilty flight. 182 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 2: And so what do they do. They take the maid 183 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 2: and two other witnesses who saw this mysterious man leaving 184 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 2: missus Gilchris's flat. They put them on another ship. They 185 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 2: take them to New York, and they coached them as 186 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: to what to say to try to extradite Slater from 187 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: America and bring him back to Scotland for trial. They 188 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 2: even show some of the witnesses his picture. They even 189 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 2: point Slater out as he's being walked down the hall 190 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 2: to his extradition hearing by US Marshals. And so right 191 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: from the very beginning, even months before his actual trial, 192 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 2: the case against him is already being fabricated. Slater eventually 193 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: naively decide to waive extradition, and, knowing full well he 194 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 2: is innocent, he goes back to Scotland and chooses to 195 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: stand trial of his own volition. And that is where 196 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: the terrible consequences start to unfold. Indeed, in May of 197 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 2: nineteen oh nine, after a four day trial at which 198 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: much perjury is borned, coached witnesses are parroting the lines 199 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 2: that police and the Crown prosecutors have given them. Alibi 200 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 2: witnesses are never called. It's just an orgy of the 201 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 2: manufacture of crimination. The jury deliberates for an hour and 202 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 2: ten minutes before finding Slater guilty. The judge dons the 203 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: traditional black cap and sentences in to hang. 204 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: What is the time period in nineteen oh eight or 205 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: nineteen oh nine when he's convicted. How long are they 206 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: typically on death row before the execution happens. It's surely 207 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: not as long as it is now. It's much shorter. 208 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: Twenty one days. And this is the really chilling thing. 209 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: He's been sentenced to death now here. Of course, your 210 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: lawyers would appeal. Guess what there was no criminal appeals 211 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 2: court in Scotland then death sentence meant, with rare exceptions, 212 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: you would die. The only possible way to get around 213 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: it was to have your sentence commuted by the British Marnock. 214 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 2: In that case, Edward the seventh literally have to get 215 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: the king to get you out of jail. And what 216 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 2: chance did a penniless German Jewish immigrant gambler have for 217 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: the king to take notice? So Oscar Slater is remanded 218 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 2: to prison to wait out the three weeks he has 219 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 2: to remain alive. He can literally hear his jailers hammering 220 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: the gallows together outside his cell. He has literally made 221 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: arrangements for his own burial. When forty eight hours before 222 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 2: he is to ascend the scaffold his sentences commuted to 223 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 2: life at hard Labor. What had happened was this, there 224 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: was enough public unease about the verdict. I think enough 225 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: aggressive thinking people realized how flimsy the case was against him. 226 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: They realized the role that xenophobia and antisemitism were playing. 227 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 2: That a public petition was got up to commute his sentence, 228 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 2: that twenty thousand residents signed, and Slater's lawyers sent that 229 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: petition to the crown, and indeed King Edward the Seventh 230 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 2: commuted his sentence to life at hard Labor. So Slater, 231 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: within two days of being hanged, is instead dispatched northward 232 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: to his Majesty's prison. This remote place that was eventually 233 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 2: called Scotland's Goulog, this remote granite fortress on a wind 234 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 2: swept outcropping in northeast Scotland. 235 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: How does Arthur Conan Doyle become involved? I know that 236 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: literary figures in the eighteen hundreds in the early nineteen 237 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: hundreds often followed these really high profile cases and used 238 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: them in their books. Is that what happened has captured 239 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: his attention for some reason. 240 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: We believe that in late nineteen eleven early nineteen twelve, 241 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 2: Slater's lawyers besiech Conan Doyle to look into the case. 242 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 2: Conan Doyle, who is at this point world famous, is 243 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 2: the author of the Sherlock Holmes stories. And remember he 244 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: trained as a physician, and he was very articulate about 245 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 2: saying he created the character of Holmes and the home 246 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 2: stories to try to bring this tradition of scientific rationalism 247 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 2: that was infusing the Victorian age to the formerly rather 248 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 2: scattershot genre of the detective story. He gave a wonderful 249 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 2: newsreel interview in nineteen twenty seven that I believe one 250 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 2: can still find on YouTube. Mostly he's talking about spiritualism, 251 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 2: which was his other great passion. But at some point, 252 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: of course, the interviewer presses him to talk about Holmes, 253 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 2: and he says, it always annoyed me how in the 254 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 2: old fashioned detective stories the detective seemed to come upon 255 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 2: his solution by chance or else. The reader was never 256 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 2: told how he got there. I wanted to create a 257 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: detective who employed the methods of science step by step, 258 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 2: so readers could follow his thought process and see how 259 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: he arrived through the use of logical reasoning at the solution. Now, 260 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: the public knew that Conan Doyle had become famous for this, 261 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 2: so they often beseeched him to look into real life cases, deaths, 262 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 2: disappearances and so on, and he did so. He was 263 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 2: a great humanist. He took up a number of social 264 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: causes in his life, and among them were the solution 265 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 2: of real life crimes, and he did indeed solve a 266 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: number of them using these rationalist methods that he had 267 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: endowed homes with. 268 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: So Arthur Kennan Doyle is reading about this case, which 269 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: is well covered. I'm sure most people know he's from Scotland. 270 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: What were the specific things do you think caught his 271 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,959 Speaker 1: interest with this case? Everything you've talked about, I'm assuming 272 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: zinophobia everything. 273 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 2: Right, and specifically the lack of logical reasoning that really 274 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: got Conan Doyle's goat right away. As he said, each 275 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 2: clue against Slater crumbles to pieces when it is examined. 276 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 2: The failure of the police once they had Slater in 277 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: their sights to consider any other alternative, and Conan Doyle 278 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: was incensed again. Knowing both as a physician who had 279 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 2: to make diagnoses and as a crime writer who had 280 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 2: to have his hero follow clues, he knew full well 281 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 2: the danger of fixating on one solution at the outset 282 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 2: to the exclusion of all other possibilities, And when you're 283 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 2: talking about a man's life, that takes on a whole 284 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: new level of urgency. The more deeply Conan Doyle read 285 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 2: the trial transcripts, studied newspaper coverage of the case, the 286 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 2: more he became convinced that although Conan Doyle as the 287 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: Victorian man from Central casting upright moral, he came from poverty, 288 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 2: but of course, at this point was one of the 289 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 2: best compensated writers in the world. He deplored Slater's ungentlemanly life. 290 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: He called him a disreputable rolling stone of a man. 291 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 2: But Conan Doyle was so moral and so eminently rationalist 292 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 2: that he realized the railroading of Slater and the necessity 293 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 2: to write this terrible injustice that had been done to him, 294 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 2: took precedence over any level of personal antipathy against the 295 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 2: man that he might have. 296 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: Where does he start. Does he start with the crime 297 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: scene or with the victim or the physical evidence? 298 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 2: Crime scene's long gone, the victims long buried, and so 299 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: you know, he was a man of letters, so he 300 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: started by reviewing the trial transcripts, reviewing press coverage. I 301 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 2: suspect that he, as Holmes did, had, you know, albums 302 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 2: and albums of newspaper clippings about crimes. We do know 303 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 2: Conan Doyle had a vast, extensive personal library of books 304 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 2: about true crime, some of which he bought from the 305 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 2: estate of W. S. Gilbert, The Gilbert of Gilbert and 306 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 2: Sullivan kind of a fun little historical footnote. So he 307 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: was very, very widely read in all aspects of true 308 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 2: crime and what we today would call for end. This 309 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 2: is the most remarkable thing about the case. Today, wrongful 310 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 2: convictions are overturned, not often enough, but they can be 311 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 2: overturned by virtue of modern forensics, particularly DNA testing. None 312 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 2: of that existed in nineteen oh eight when the murder happened. 313 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 2: In nineteen twelve, when Conan Doyle published his monograph on 314 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,719 Speaker 2: the murder, The Case of Oscar Slater, none of that 315 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: existed in nineteen twenty seven when Slater was finally released 316 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 2: from prison, or in nineteen twenty eight when his conviction 317 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: was formally quashed. All through the agency of Conan Doyle, 318 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: done the old fashioned way, through shoe leather reading and 319 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 2: intense rationalist thought, as well as because Conan Doyle was 320 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 2: by this time one of the most famous and in 321 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 2: a sense powerful men in Britain, he did a lot 322 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 2: of back room brokering and lobbying with some of the 323 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 2: most powerful figures in British politics to try to get 324 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 2: this case on the agenda and to try to bring 325 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 2: public attention to it. He wrote a lot of letters 326 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 2: to newspapers as well, because in those years that was 327 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 2: the primary forum for public discussion of social affairs. 328 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: What do you think his strongest counter evidence was in 329 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: this case where he said listen to this, and finally 330 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: people listened because it sounded irrefutable coming from him. 331 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: Well, there were many things, starting with the ludicrous identification 332 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 2: or non identification of the pawn broach. It was very 333 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 2: clear the maid was taken to the pawnshop by the police. 334 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 2: She said right away, Oh no, that's not my mistress's broach. 335 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 2: It looks totally different, but pretty soon because the police 336 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,159 Speaker 2: knew that the broach clue was worthless, that clue was 337 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: kind of swept under the rug. Conan Doyle brought it 338 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: out again and said, the police knew within days that 339 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 2: Oscar Slater was not their man. That should have been 340 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 2: the end of it. Why wasn't it? And there were 341 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 2: many other instances like that where Conan Doyle, just reading closely, 342 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 2: could see where witnesses had seemingly spontaneously changed their story. 343 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 2: People who couldn't identify Slater as the man seen leaving 344 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 2: Marion Gilchris's apartment suddenly identified him. And so all of 345 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 2: these consistencies. Conan Doyle, as both a man of science 346 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: and a craftsman of detective stories, was singularly well positioned 347 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 2: to ferret out and bring to life. 348 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: So bad witnesses, and of course got very bad misidentification 349 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: the housekeeper's timeline right that ten minutes she stepped out 350 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: and stepped back in. Is Conan Doyle making the assumption 351 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: that this is someone who was clearly lying in wait, 352 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: or was he thinking maybe this was an inside job 353 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: involving the housekeeper? 354 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 2: What we do know Conan Doyle was an Edwardian man 355 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 2: of rectitude and bearing. He wasn't good to tar anyone. 356 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 2: But it's very clear, and it's there between the lines 357 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 2: of his monograph on the case, that the housekeeper knew 358 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 2: more than she could ever be persuaded to tell. Many 359 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 2: many years later, right before Slater was released, she publicly 360 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 2: recanted her identification of Slater as the nan she'd seen 361 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 2: leaving the flat. She was by this time living in America. 362 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: The newspapers tracked her down there and with great fanfare, 363 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 2: published this recantation. Now she later recanted the recantation. Her 364 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 2: story is kind of all over the map over time. 365 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 2: She clearly knew more than she was saying. There is 366 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 2: also evidence that she actually identified the man she saw 367 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 2: leaving the flat. She knew who it was. It was 368 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 2: not Slater, and it may have been a relative of 369 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: the dead woman. One of the most striking aspects of 370 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 2: the crime scene, and this was something that Conan Doyle 371 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 2: in his writing on the case, threw into sharp relief, 372 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 2: was not only was there only the one piece of 373 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 2: jewelry stolen allegedly with this vast horde of jewelry secreted 374 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 2: all around the apartment, but in one of the bedrooms 375 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 2: of the flat a box had been broken into and 376 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 2: it contained not jewelry but papers, And the floor of 377 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 2: the room was littered with papers, as if the mysterious 378 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 2: intruder had been flinging them about looking for something. So 379 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 2: one of the things Conan Doyle homed it on in 380 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 2: his work he said, what kind of document, save a will, 381 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 2: could excite that kind of frenzy in an intruder? And 382 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 2: so there is very strong implications that there may have 383 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 2: been a fight among family members over this rich old 384 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: lady's estate while she was still alive. 385 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: Well where did all the money go once she was murdered? 386 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 1: Who inherited all of this? 387 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 2: She changed her will just a few weeks before she 388 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 2: was murdered, and strikingly, she was very paranoid. She had 389 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 2: three locks on her door, She hit her jewelry all over. 390 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 2: She apparently told someone about the week before she died 391 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,959 Speaker 2: that she felt certain she was going to be murdered. 392 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 2: This fact was not known for years now. That could 393 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 2: be just a parenoid old lady whose mind is slipping, 394 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 2: or it could be someone who quite reasonably has reason 395 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 2: to fear various relatives. Before she died, she changed her 396 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 2: will to leave the vast bulk of her estate to 397 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 2: one of the very few people she got along with 398 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 2: it was a former maid of hers, now a grown 399 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 2: woman with a grown daughter, and this maid and her 400 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,679 Speaker 2: daughter were going to pretty much get all the money. Well. 401 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 2: Marian Gilchrist had lots of nieces and nephews, and it 402 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 2: is certainly within the realm of possibility that one or 403 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: more of them, being aware that she had changed her 404 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 2: will or was about to change it, might not have 405 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 2: taken that news in the most kindly fashion. 406 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: Is the idea that perhaps this relative, if there is 407 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: a relative who did this, paid her current housekeeper to 408 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: leave the door locks unlocked, and when the housekeeper slipped out, 409 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: the person came in, took the broach, and then left, 410 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: So it was an inside job. 411 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 2: That is one scenario. It is certainly within the realm 412 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 2: of possibility. Skipping ahead, even now, over one hundred years on, 413 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 2: there has been no suspect identified definitively. Who killed Marion 414 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: Gilchrist on that December night in nineteen oh eight will 415 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 2: forever remain a mystery. At the end of my book, 416 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 2: I do have a section that talks about some of 417 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 2: the more likely theories, more likely candidates and certainly, one 418 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,959 Speaker 2: likely scenario is that it was an inside job within 419 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: her extended family. We do know this is a frightened 420 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 2: old woman with three locks on the door. She had 421 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: the technology, as we do in apartment buildings today, to 422 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 2: buzz someone in who was on the street who wanted 423 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: to visit. Her flat was on the second floor. She 424 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 2: could buzz them in from her apartment, and while they 425 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 2: were ascending that flight of stairs, she had plenty of 426 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 2: time to open her flat door, peek around, and if 427 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: it was someone she didn't know, someone scary, she had 428 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 2: time to shut the door, bolt her three locks and 429 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: be safe. The fact that someone just came in strongly 430 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 2: suggests that missus Gilchris admitted him, and it was therefore 431 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: someone she knew and felt at least reasonably comfortable with. 432 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 2: The brooch actually was one of the few, very few 433 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 2: pieces of jewelry that was visible. Missus Gilchrist did kind 434 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 2: of nutty things like secreting jewels in pockets of dresses 435 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 2: that were hanging up in the wardrobe. She pinned brooches 436 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 2: behind the drapery, so most of the tons of jewelry 437 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 2: that was in the flat was not visible to the 438 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 2: naked eye. When you walked in. The brooch was sitting 439 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 2: with a few other pieces in a little dish for 440 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 2: odds and ends on a dress table in one of 441 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 2: the bedrooms. So Conan Doyle conjectured that the mystery man 442 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 2: the assailant. He was let in by this frightened old lady. 443 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: They may have had some discussion at some point. She's 444 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 2: bludgeoned deaths. He goes into the bedroom, wrenches open this 445 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 2: wooden box, looking for papers, perhaps a will. Then he 446 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 2: hears the mate coming back. She's only gone for ten minutes. Remember, 447 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 2: he doesn't know who it is. Maybe it's a neighbor, 448 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 2: maybe it's the police. You know, the killing has made 449 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 2: a lot of noise. Missus Gilchrist, by pre arranged signal 450 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 2: has wrapped on the floor three times as she was 451 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 2: dying to alert the neighbors downstairs that she needed help. 452 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 2: Conan Doyle conjectures that because this diamond broach was visible, 453 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 2: the assailant simply slipped it into his pocket at the 454 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: last minute as a kind of blind to make everything 455 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 2: that transpired look like robbery by some random stranger, when 456 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 2: in fact it wasn't at all. 457 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: What is the reaction of the local police who have 458 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: been investigating this, have nailed down Slater, have put him 459 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: on death row, and now you have this literary icon 460 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: Arthur Conan Doyle coming in and messing everything up. Were 461 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,479 Speaker 1: they furious or did they sort of sit down and 462 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: shut up? Because of the political power he wielded in 463 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: nineteen oh eight nineteen oh nine. 464 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,959 Speaker 2: They wielded a lot of power themselves, and they, with 465 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 2: the Crown prosecutors in Scotland, formed a blue wall of silence, 466 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 2: impassivity and intractability. They stonewalled any attempts to undo what 467 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 2: they had done. And from the very beginning it's clear, 468 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 2: you know, this was a Boushois woman, a rich woman, 469 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 2: a respectable woman. This was an age that was all 470 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 2: about social standing and social respectability, the kind of person 471 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 2: who shouldn't be murdered. Therefore, the case was a sensation 472 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 2: in the newspapers. You know, the newspapers were screaming in 473 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 2: a rich old lady murdered in nice part of town, 474 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: how can this be? The police therefore, were under enormous 475 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 2: pressure to solve the case. So along comes this circumstantial 476 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 2: clue that happens to link them through this crescent broach 477 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 2: to Oscar Slater, a disreputable man, no murderer, but a 478 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 2: gambler whom they want to run out of town anyway, 479 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 2: So they seize on this, wrap him up in the 480 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 2: Gilchrist murder as a handy fellow to convict. They are 481 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: literally killing two birds with one stone, getting rid of 482 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 2: Slater and getting, as they say on law and order, 483 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 2: getting a collar in a high profile case. They're under 484 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 2: great pressure to close, so, needless to say, they are 485 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 2: not going to do anything to undermine or verse that 486 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 2: scenario and expose all of the corruption, the lying, the 487 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 2: subornation of perjury, the witness tampering that has gone on. 488 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: So in nineteen twelve, as the result of his investigation, 489 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 2: Conan Doyle publishes a monograph, The Case of Oscar Slater. 490 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 2: He deliberately keeps the price low It's sixpence because he 491 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 2: wants the book to be widely bought, and the book lands, 492 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 2: nothing happens. I think it was simply too soon. It 493 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 2: was only four years after the murder. This brutal, sensational 494 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 2: case was still fresh in public memory, and there was 495 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 2: still this lather whipped up by the police and the 496 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 2: prosecutors and the press of anti immigrant anti Jewish sentiment 497 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 2: against Oscar Slater. So Conan Doyle had a very hard 498 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 2: time just four years later in persuading the public that 499 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 2: the police had attached and convicted the wrong man. Fast 500 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,919 Speaker 2: forward to nineteen twenty five. Slater at this has been 501 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 2: in Peterhead Prison since nineteen oh nine, raking up massive 502 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 2: blocks of granite, you know, under the blistering sun or 503 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: in the freezing cold in the prison. Huare literally you know, 504 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 2: fed on bread and water and gruel. One of his friends, 505 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 2: a fellow convict named William Gordon, is being paroled. Now 506 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 2: Gordon as a striking thing about him. He wears dancers 507 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 2: and so under his dentures the day he gets paroled, 508 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 2: furled into a tiny pellet is a note from Oscar 509 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 2: Slater saying please go see Conan Doyle. And of course 510 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,760 Speaker 2: the prison officials do a body search of William Gordon 511 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: when he's about to be released, but no one thinks 512 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 2: to examine his gums. So he actually does spirit this 513 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,760 Speaker 2: note out of prison. He goes to see Conan Doyle 514 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 2: and persuades him, you know, thirteen years after his monograph 515 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,800 Speaker 2: has come out to take up the case one last 516 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 2: time and It's only then when public sentiment against Slater 517 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 2: has more or less abated. A lot of the most 518 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 2: nefarious principles in the case against him, police officers, member 519 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 2: of the Crown Prosecution Office, a lot of them have died. 520 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,439 Speaker 2: It's only then that it becomes possible for Conan Doyle 521 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 2: to take up arms once more, and this time the 522 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 2: time is right. That was the beginning of the end 523 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 2: of Slater's incarceration. He's released at the end of nineteen 524 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 2: twenty seven. His conviction is formally washed the next year. 525 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: What is life like for Oscar Slater after his release. 526 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: He's been there for so long. His wife, I'm presuming 527 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: is gone. This is just a brand new life for 528 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: someone who obviously is going to be heavily institutionalized. 529 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 2: That's right. And he's not released till twenty seven, and 530 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,800 Speaker 2: with a war in between. Remember his families in Germany. 531 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 2: So one of the most gut wrenching things is for 532 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 2: the whole of the war from nineteen fourteen to nineteen eighteen, 533 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 2: Slater can exchange no correspondence with his family. You know, 534 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 2: his parents are already elderly. And after the war he 535 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 2: gets a letter from one of his sisters back in Germany, saying, 536 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 2: you know, dearest Oscar, I must now tell you about 537 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,320 Speaker 2: the deaths of our dear parents. All of his correspondence 538 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 2: has been preserved, which was a boon for me, and 539 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 2: the letters are especially that one, are just gut wrenching 540 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 2: to read. So he's in prison from nineteen oh nine 541 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 2: to the end of nineteen twenty seven. When he goes 542 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,919 Speaker 2: into prison he's in his late thirties. When it comes out, 543 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 2: he's only in his mid fifties, and photographs from his 544 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 2: discharge he looks like a man of almost ninety. I mean, 545 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 2: the years have not been kind to him, nor would 546 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 2: they be to anyone who was breaking up blocks of 547 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 2: granite in the quarry every day for eighteen and a 548 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 2: half years. He adjusted to life on the outside really 549 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 2: remarkably well. He lived in a small town. He lived 550 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 2: in air Seaside town, not too far from Glasgow. He 551 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 2: started an antiques business. He was always a tinkerer, so 552 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 2: he would buy and refurbish things. He had a modest 553 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 2: income in the form of reparations from the state for 554 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 2: his wrongful incarceration. He was apparently convivial, well liked by 555 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 2: his neighbors, here's the thing. When he got out, he 556 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 2: was a man without a country. The Scottish authorities badly 557 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 2: wanted to send him back to Germany on his release. 558 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 2: The case was so notorious they didn't want any reminders 559 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,240 Speaker 2: of it hanging around, particularly not the flesh and blood 560 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 2: big reminder in the form of Oscar Slater himself. They discovered, 561 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 2: to their dismay that a German who had been out 562 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,399 Speaker 2: of Germany for ten years or more lost his citizenship. 563 00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: And of course Oscar Slater had been locked up in 564 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 2: Scotland for eighteen and a half years, so he couldn't 565 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 2: go back to Germany. He was in a sense stateless, 566 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 2: so he stayed in Scotland, in this country where these 567 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 2: terrible things had happened. As you say, his French music 568 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 2: hall mistress slash sex worker left the scene very very early. 569 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,919 Speaker 2: Slater remarried a much younger Scottish woman, apparently very very 570 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 2: happy marriage, liked by his neighbors. He died in his 571 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 2: bed in Air, Scotland in nineteen forty eight in a 572 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 2: blood chilling way. This terrible case that almost cost him 573 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 2: his life and left him as a man without a country, 574 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 2: may well have saved his life because he, as a Jew, 575 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 2: was not able to be back in Germany in the 576 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 2: nineteen forties. And one of the most devastating things of 577 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 2: the book is we've gotten to know his parents and 578 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 2: his sisters through their loving letters to Slater in prison 579 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 2: and his to them. His and by this time had 580 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 2: died of natural causes. His sisters never made it out 581 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 2: of the Holocaust. So, in the bitterest of bitter ironies, 582 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 2: this terrible, wrongful conviction ultimately may have saved his life. 583 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: Did he reconnect with Arthur Conan Doyle after this? Did 584 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: they have many conversations about this? Or when the case 585 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: was done, that was it? 586 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 2: They actually met in person only once. Conan Doyle, again 587 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 2: for various reasons, held Slater somewhat at arm's length. He 588 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 2: approached the case purely as an intellectual and ethical problem. 589 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,359 Speaker 2: He did not correspond with Slater directly. Again, he in 590 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,439 Speaker 2: good and bad ways. Conan Doyle was a Victorian man. 591 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 2: He had tremendous morality, tremendous probity, but he was not 592 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 2: free of Victorian class prejudices, and it was clear that 593 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 2: he found Slater's kind of Denimond life distasteful. So he 594 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 2: handled the case by himself and through intermediaries. He and 595 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 2: Slater actually only met once at the nineteen twenty eight 596 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:14,240 Speaker 2: hearing to formally overturn Slater's conviction. Conan Doyle was there 597 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 2: covering the case for a British newspaper. They greeted each 598 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 2: other very warmly. One of the things that was really 599 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 2: a kick in the chest to me when I was 600 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 2: researching the case was I spent a week at the 601 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 2: National Records of Scotland in Edinburgh. The case was in Glasgow, 602 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,760 Speaker 2: but there was a change of venue and the trial 603 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 2: was moved to Edinburgh, the capitol, so there are records 604 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 2: on the case in both cities. At the National Records 605 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,439 Speaker 2: of Scotland in Edinburgh, I spent a week going through 606 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,359 Speaker 2: all of these files on the case that are in 607 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,240 Speaker 2: date order over about twenty years. And the very last 608 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 2: folder in the last filebox had a heading that took 609 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 2: my breath away in not any good way. The heading 610 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:03,320 Speaker 2: was Conan Doyle the Slater, and I thought, my god, 611 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 2: Conan Doyle actually had to threaten to take Slater to 612 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 2: court to recoup some of the costs that he had 613 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 2: outlaid in the course of exonerating him. And I was 614 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 2: so rattled when I saw that. I said to myself, 615 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 2: I'm going to go back to my hotel. I'm going 616 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 2: to go to sleep, and in the morning when I 617 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:29,160 Speaker 2: come back to the archive, this file won't be here. 618 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 2: And of course it was, and I had to deal 619 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 2: with it. What happened was this, partly with Conan Doyle's help, 620 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 2: Oscar Slater had gotten six thousand pounds compensation for wrongful 621 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 2: imprisonment from the British government. That was a lot of 622 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 2: money in nineteen twenty eight. Now Conan Doyle had outlaid 623 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,319 Speaker 2: a certain amount of money in getting things printed and published, 624 00:42:55,520 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 2: in paying people who did some of the legwork. And 625 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 2: although he could well afford to pay again he was 626 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 2: such a principled man, he was shocked and embittered and 627 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 2: scandalized when Oscar Slater declined to reimburse him for that outlay. 628 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,280 Speaker 2: And of course, from Slater's point of view, Conan Doyle 629 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 2: was rich, he didn't need the money, whereas he Slater 630 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 2: was from a poor background. He'd spent almost twenty years 631 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 2: in jail. This was the money he was going to 632 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 2: live on. So they were both right, and what was 633 00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 2: so painful, but so telling about this last coda to 634 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 2: the story was that even after all of this time, 635 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,759 Speaker 2: all of Conan Doyle's involvement in the case, neither one 636 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 2: of them was really equipped to understand the other, and 637 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaker 2: there was still this kind of unbridgable class difference between 638 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 2: the two. In the end, the case was settled more 639 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 2: or less amicably without it actually having to come to trial, 640 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 2: but there was this really bitter rupture between the two 641 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 2: men at the end, very very painful, but again very 642 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 2: much a product of its time. 643 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,880 Speaker 1: And luckily you have a hero in Arthur Conan Doyle 644 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 1: who has acquired all of these real life skills of 645 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: a detective. And I know that he was, you know, 646 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,359 Speaker 1: by the end of Sherlock Holmes, by the end he 647 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,879 Speaker 1: was sort of sick and tired of it, and this 648 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,720 Speaker 1: was such a fantastic application of his skills. 649 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,840 Speaker 2: The Oscar Slater case was truly Conan Doyle's last stand 650 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,440 Speaker 2: as an investigator of real life crime, and it was 651 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 2: a terrible, dark and painful case, but it was ultimately 652 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 2: a triumph for both Conan Doyle and Slater in that 653 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 2: he not only got Slater released, he got him officially exonerated. 654 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 2: He got the formal conviction quashed, even got him some compensation, 655 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,360 Speaker 2: And so all of this wound down over sort of 656 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,720 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty eight, nineteen tw nine, and then Conan Doyle 657 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 2: died in nineteen thirty, so it was truly the last 658 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 2: hurrah of this upright, complicated, ultimately extremely moral, extremely rationalist 659 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 2: victorian man. And I say, you know, it was perhaps 660 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 2: only with Conan Doyle's death in nineteen thirty what historians 661 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:32,719 Speaker 2: call the Long nineteenth century was well and truly over. 662 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 663 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 664 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 665 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi, Our associate 666 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: producer is Alex Chi. Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 667 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga, Executive 668 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 1: producer by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow 669 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,960 Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked 670 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you know 671 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: of a historical crime that could use some attention from 672 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,719 Speaker 1: the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at info 673 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,880 Speaker 1: at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for 674 00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,160 Speaker 1: true crime authors for Wicked Words