WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Who killed Willie MacRae? 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:04.360 Imagine serving twenty years in prison knowing you didn't do 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.880 the crime. From the Emmy winning filmmaker of Paradise Lost, 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:12.399 comes the new docuseries Wrong Man on Stars. The series 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.800 follows the stories of three inmates claiming innocence and a 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.720 team of investigative experts who reopened their cases to seek 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:24.640 the truth. Watch Wrongman, premiering June three at nine pm 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:27.640 only on Stars. Get the Stars up and start your 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:51.400 free trial today. Well, hi there, welcome to another episode 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:55.400 of Thinking Sideways. I am your host Joe, joined as 0:00:55.440 --> 0:01:01.640 always by and Steve and Yes, and this week we 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:07.440 have a horse co host. Yeah, Devn Devon's Devon's had 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:09.320 a little problem with your voice, but bear with us. 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:11.920 It still sounds good. You're I can understand you, So 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:14.080 I think we'll be all right. My cousin told my 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:16.360 new husband that this is actually my real voice that 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:18.280 I've been hiding from him for the last four years. 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:24.360 I love this theory. Well, you know, actually there's worse news. 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:26.559 I mean, it could be like, oh, I never told 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:29.240 you actually have a really hypits voice. It's really annoying. 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.720 It's actually pretty annoying. So yeah, okay, let's get back 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.000 to back to that. But too bad about the voice. 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:37.800 But next week it'll be better, I'm sure. Uh. So, 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:39.800 we got a mystery to talk about this week, so 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:42.920 let's get right into it. Eh. Yes, we're gonna talk 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:47.000 about the mysterious death of William McCray. That's William McCray, 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:51.320 properly known as Willia McCray, Scottish lawyer and politician, who 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:56.320 died in a strange auto accident in Because this is 0:01:56.360 --> 0:02:00.000 strange because when the smoke it cleared from the accident, uh, 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:01.920 which wouldn't have been failed to him, and also turned 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:04.760 out he had been shot in the head, which is 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:06.840 not normally what happens when you wreck a car. No, 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:09.640 not tally Yeah, game, it's kind of a surprise. Before 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:11.040 we go any further, though, I want to give a 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.800 shout out to our listener Michael, who suggested this story 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:18.119 way back in So Hey, Michael, assume you're Scottish, So yeah, 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:20.880 tell all your Scottish friends and an honor of our 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:22.880 all of our Scottish listeners, I'm going to do the 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:27.640 rest of this episode in Scottish brogue. Well that's going 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:31.560 to destroy our ratings. Okay, okay, never mind, let's skip 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:35.200 the brogue, so let's talk about Willie. Yeah, now, I know, 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:38.880 I'm sorry, and I another another apology to our Scottish listeners. 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.040 But I wonder I hear about scotsman named Willie. There's 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:46.919 only one Willie. I think of groundskeeper, groundskeeper Willie. I 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.520 knew that's where you're gonna go, I know. But yeah, anyway, 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:52.600 back we haven't been doing this for five years or something, 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.880 So back to William mccraig. Willie was born in nineteen 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:59.720 three in Scotland. Of course, I served in World War 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:03.120 Two in France and then also in India. Uh, just 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:07.440 stant military intelligence. Eventually went back to civilian life and 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.320 became a lawyer. Went on to start his own law firm, 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:14.399 Levi and McCrae in Glasgow, Scotland. Uh well. They also 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:17.600 joined the Scottish National Party. He was indeed an intense 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:21.040 Scottish nationalist. He was big into that whole thing. He 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.720 began to rise in the ranks in the SNP and 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:28.040 he rose to the rank of vice chairman in the party. Uh. 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.200 He also stood for elections several times, but never actually 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:34.040 won office. It seemed like every time he went he 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:38.000 ran it was a wider and wider margin from him 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:40.360 being able to take the seat. If I remember the 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:44.040 numbers correctly, like he was. They really liked him at first, 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.160 and then he just kept running in his numbers just 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.680 kept going down, like Paul Rand. Yeah, yeah, I'm not 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.480 sure you mean Rand. Paul Rand, Paul Yeah, you know what, 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:57.160 people knowing both ways, he doesn't matter. Uh yeah. Well. 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:00.440 The funny thing is is I I never met the 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:02.800 guy or anything like that, but I've seen video of 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:06.800 him speaking. Actually he the guy was a good public speaker. 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.480 I mean I thought it was anyway. You know, sometimes 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.080 what happens is somebody's a good public speaker and so 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.280 people are really taking with them. At first, I don't 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:16.679 like their ideas, and then they start to actually listen 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:18.800 to their ideas and see how effective they are, and 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.600 maybe question is this person actually going to be effective? 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:27.440 Maybe they haven't been proving themselves maybe there yeah, so maybe, 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:29.400 you know, at first he was just one charisma, and 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:31.400 the next it was kind of like every single time 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.039 there they said, he lesn't less effective. This is just 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:36.640 maybe it's not a good idea, or maybe he just 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.200 had a really really really bad run of luck. And 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.520 every time he just had a better, more charismatic opponent. 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:44.800 And maybe I've got a bad run of luck there, 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.400 I don't know. But but anyway, that didn't totally hold 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:51.640 Willie back. He didn't get an MP position or anything else, 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:53.760 but he was still pretty influential I think in the 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:58.400 SNP and Scottish politics until the faithfully being a Friday, 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:02.840 April five, when William mccraig left his house in Glasgow 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.960 to drive to his cottage and art Dell, which is 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.119 about a hundred ten miles northwest of Glasgow. Hundred seventy 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.400 five kilometers and that's crow miles road miles road miles 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.560 would be nearly twice said, because there's no direct highway 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:18.520 that goes to our what is that in cow miles? Yeah, 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:22.120 cow and crow miles, cow miles. It's like, I don't know, 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:26.120 hundred eighty six thousand, I think, but yeah, you can 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.000 find our Del. It's it's just I guess I would 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:37.719 have called that kilometers. Oh, I like that kilometers, Okay, 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:42.200 So nixing that idea. Our Del is like kind of 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.360 towards the west coast of Scotland. It's not a it's 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:47.600 on a lock. You know actually, which is actually kind 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:49.720 of a fjord and which actually connects to the sea, 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:51.839 so you can almost call it a sea coast sort 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.280 of town. But now we shouldn't he took Reportedly, when 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.360 he left, he took his briefcase and a bottle of 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.080 whiskey with him, and it was what it was in 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:04.040 the afternoon, right, it was okay, Yeah, So it was 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:07.080 Friday time to go away for the weekend. He headed 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:11.360 off in his maroon Volvo four and sometime that night, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.719 probably around ten pm. It's hard it's not absolutely for sure, 0:06:15.760 --> 0:06:18.279 but he was driving north on the eighties seven road 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:26.760 about twenty four curl miles from his destination Koslos, exactly. Uh. 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.520 And if Carl left the road for some reason, nobody 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.680 knows exactly sure why. But it looks like it rolled 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:34.960 a few times, because I've seen I've seen a few 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:36.880 photos of the car. It looks pretty beat up. It's 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.640 banged up. Yeah. Uh. It wound up about ninety ft 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.320 from the road, pointed uphill. This is so it went 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.920 off down a sort of down out, gently sloping hill 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.160 and was pointed uphill towards the road where it came 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:52.360 to rest. It was straddling a burn, which is Scottish 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.440 for a very small stream. Uh. And this one was 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.200 really small, like kind of a regular really And if 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.280 you want to see the crash site the court as are, 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:05.320 write this down if anybody cares. Fifty seven point one 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:09.440 one six three one four by minus four point nine 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.480 two zero eight one. That's on the eighties seven Highway, 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:15.360 about two and a half miles south of the intersection 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:19.320 with seven Road. Wow, that string of numbers is going 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.160 to be easy to remember, everybody who listens in the car. 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:28.520 I know exactly how many car wreckts are we gonna cause, yeah, no, careful, 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:30.480 you can always go back and look this up again, 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.120 you know. But I actually also warn you. This is 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:35.600 where there's a monument to Willie. There's a kind of 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:37.520 a cairn that is to some of his fans built 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:39.280 for him there by the side of the road. Uh. 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:41.880 And that's believed by most everybody to be the crash site. 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:43.920 But there's a few people who say the crash site 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.800 was actually about a mile south at there, so just 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.200 before one, because there's there, yeah there is, But can 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.880 I just ask real quick, Yeah, it is him being 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.200 on that road at ten PM was about when he 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:59.720 would have. Yeah, because the road, the trip from Glasgow 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.600 court the Google anyway, the trip from Glasgow to our 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:06.760 Dell is about a four hour drive via the eight 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.040 seven road and everything. And so if he left the 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.080 six thirty and he was most of the way there, 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.680 then he should have gotten there no earlier than say 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:18.360 nine thirty, and no later than ten. That of course. 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.000 That that's you know, depending on It was like three 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:22.920 quarters of the way there though, wasn't he Yeah, it 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:27.559 was forty miles away and it was only a couple 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.840 of drinks. Yeah, No, it was a hundred hundred crow 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.839 miles road miles road miles, more like a couple of 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:38.200 hundred yeah, So but yeah, I mean so he probably 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:42.000 stopped for dinner and pea breaks, gasoline, that kind of thing. Uh, 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:47.080 maybe he had to take petrol, okay, Uh, you know, 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:48.840 maybe he had to take d tours to try to 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.440 shake off the special branch tails that were following him. 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:55.040 Getting ahead of yourself a little bit. But anyway, it was, 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.000 it was probably no earlier than nine ten, maybe a 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:00.280 little later than that. I wanted to make sure that 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:02.480 it wasn't like odd that he was out at that time, 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.680 Not really no, no, it was yeah. And the next 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.800 morning a couple of tourists were driving by and they 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:12.640 spotted the car. So that was the first discovery. That 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:15.559 was the first people who at least reported it. Yeah, 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:18.920 they spotted the car and they stopped the husband. They 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.800 were Their names were Alan Barbara Crowe. They were from Australia. 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:23.959 And this is ten o'clock in the morning. I go 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:28.880 right around Daniel. So Alan Crowe walked down to the car, 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.599 saw that there was a person in it, and he 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.200 opened the door and then took Willie's pulse, found that 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:35.920 he did have a pulse kind of weak, but he 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:40.400 was otherwise non responsive. And but then, as it happens, 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:42.320 to another car drove by, So they flagged down this 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:44.920 other car, which luckily enough was driven by a person 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:48.520 named Dorothy Messer, who happened to be a doctor. And 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:52.640 here's another amazing coincidence. There was also a passenger in 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:54.600 the car named David Coots, who was a member of 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:57.400 the s MP or the same party that will belonged to. 0:09:57.559 --> 0:09:59.839 Actually they knew each other. Yeah, he had known Willie 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:02.120 for years and so when he was kind of shocked 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:04.679 and surprised to see Willie sitting behind the wheel of 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:07.080 the car that was wrecked, or maybe it wasn't. Was 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:10.040 this a coincidence or was he a hit man? You're 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:14.040 way ahead. Yeah, we could just start right now. Yeah, 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:15.920 we'll save the accusations for I don't think we should. 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:19.160 There's more story to tell, Yeah there is. Yeah. Actually 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:20.920 I saw this guy on TV in an interview. He 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.120 doesn't come off like a mob thug or a hitman 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.160 at all. Also, it was, you know, twelve hours later. Yeah, 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:29.160 there was that too. Yeah, the interview was much later 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.959 than that. Yeah, years after. So they got down to 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:36.120 the car. That's when he David Coupe recognized as Willie. 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:38.760 Willie was in the driver's seat, unconscious. He was not 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:42.199 wearing a seatbelt. Uh, and Dr Messer looked him over 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:45.240 and guestimated he'd been sitting there for maybe around ten hours. 0:10:45.559 --> 0:10:46.840 But you know, it's hard to I don't know how 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.640 she did that. Maybe blood plotting, because he had like 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:53.400 a head injury. There was all over I mean it's 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.800 pooled down his shirt. Yeah, and so I guess that's 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:58.679 how she guestimated this. So he's taken to a hospital 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.200 in Inverness. From there he was transferred to another hospital, 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:06.400 which was the Aberdeen Royal infirm Ring, And they're at 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:10.040 Aberdeen right around four in the afternoon they discovered finally 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:11.679 that he had a bullet hole in his head, just 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.360 over his right air. How long does it take to 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:18.360 wipe the blood off of somebody's head, for God's sake, 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.280 you know, I'm not I don't really quite get why 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.079 it took so long to figure that out. But you know, hey, 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:27.440 I think you know you're doing triage for other stuff, right. 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.160 Somebody says, well, he has a pulse. You assumed there. 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:31.640 You know, if if there was a doctor on the 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.400 scene as well, you assumed maybe she would have been 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.160 noticing things. If he has a pulse, clearly he's not 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.880 brain dead. Well, I would presume that he was brought 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.400 in in an ambulance, so I would assume that they 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.560 would have given him once over and said clean it 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.800 and bandage. Yet would be my presumption, right, But life 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.480 saving care is different than finding a bullet hole behind 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.840 somebody's ear. Listen, I watched e er for years and 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:59.360 that's not the way it happens. Well, you know that 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.160 I know a little more than Yeah, I got one 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:09.559 word to say to you guys stat Yeah, clear that Okay, 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:11.600 back to you know it might but yeah it should 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.760 have should they should have found it faster. But also 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.040 well I would have thought that crazy to me, I guess, 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:17.960 I don't know. The guy comes in with a head injury, 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:19.520 and I would think the first thing you would do 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:21.400 would be like, actually has had to see if he's 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:24.319 got any you know, massive like brain swelling. I'm afraid 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.360 you were right back to exactly what I guess. I 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.480 don't know, but anyway, whatever, it's water runder the bridge, right, 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:34.760 but the water runder the car, I guess in this case. Yeah, 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.680 I know when they found a bullet hole, they actually 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:38.959 just had there was a bullet in his brain. So 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:41.040 while that changes things, it turns out it wasn't an 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:45.000 auto accident after all, but the local police apparently didn't 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:46.840 get the memo on that. So his car was towed 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.880 from the scene at noon the next day. And so 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:54.040 I've been Sunday Sunday. Yeah, I believe it was about 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:56.320 noon on Sunday to seventh. By the way, can I 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.319 can I point something out because people will see this 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:00.280 when they're reading this on the internet, and it was 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:02.680 confusing to me at first, until I figured out what 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.040 the problem with the reporting was. Is sometimes you will 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:10.400 see it reported as he left on Friday and he 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:14.680 wasn't found until Sunday. And it took me forever to 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.800 figure out that what happened is people were mixing up 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:22.080 the date that the car was hauled away as the 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:26.000 date that Willie was found. In other words, not twelve 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.440 hours of him being gone, but thirty six hours. And 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:31.800 I was like this, It really took me a long 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.240 time to feel because I kept reading the different articles 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.400 and I couldn't understand. And then that's the only way 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:40.319 I've determined that the screw happened. Yeah, no, I I 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:44.439 don't think the road is that remote. I don't think 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:46.960 it was quite that remote that nobody would have seen 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:50.560 him for that long time. So anyway, so they go 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.120 back to there at the car they're hauling. Yeah, the 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.800 car has been hauled away, so they didn't see it 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:57.839 as a potential crime scene. At first, I thought it 0:13:57.880 --> 0:13:59.840 was a car accident. This guy had just gone off 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:02.640 the road, right, we had not the first time that's happened. 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:04.800 And as for the car itself, that was of course 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:07.520 in the police's possession. There were three things that were 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.680 not in it. The gun that shot Willie, his briefcase 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.839 which supposedly had with him, and also that bottle of 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.520 whiskey they supposedly took with him. Those things were not 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.160 in the car, and they had been found on the 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.000 ground and around the car either. So this is this 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:23.400 is one of the things that I found really odd 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.200 about this story that the police, the local police, after 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.760 they found out that it was a crime scene, at 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.280 least potentially, they took the car back to where that 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:33.720 the wreck was and put it back in the same 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:35.680 spot where they found it so they could take pictures 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.520 of it. Well, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:41.000 They should have already taken pictures of it, anyway, I 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:43.520 would have thought. Apparently they didn't. So they put the 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.440 car back and they searched the area, and this time 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.200 they found the gun. It was about sixty ft from 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.000 the car, and it was in the burn, which you 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:53.720 remember as a stream, so they and it was kind 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.640 of below a little little tiny waterfall in the burn, 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.800 which is maybe why nobody spotted it at first, And 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:03.320 it was a forty five caliber Smith and Western revolver 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.680 which had been fired twice, you know, as in there 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:11.440 were just two bullets missing or cartridge case things. Yeah, yeah, 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.200 which means that, yeah, it had it have been. All 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.040 that means is it Obviously it was fired once because 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.760 he had a bullet in his head, but the other 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:22.080 one that was the actual gun. But yeah, yeah, that's 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:24.480 true to that too. But but I just you know, 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:28.320 sometimes it seems like people say I'd been fired twice. 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.240 But like we've talked about this before, you don't get 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:32.960 your you don't know that, and I don't get your 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.680 gun all the way full. Yeah, well it had it 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:39.400 had empty it had entry empty brass in it shoot 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:47.600 empty brass. Yeah, and so he forgot it. Yeah. Well, well, 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:49.280 I think Joe's idea is right though, is that he 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.960 may have shot it once at some point and left 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:55.760 that empty shot that if you round in there, Yeah, 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:58.200 I mean, because you don't always just open it up 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:00.600 and replace him. It's not like the Deo game, where 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.200 as soon as you can you reload. Yeah, well you 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.040 think it would. But think about it, is is this 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.960 this gun and by the way, imagined it was a 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.280 forty five caliber Smith and Weston turns. That's what's on 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.920 Wikipedia and in some other places too. It turns out 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:15.160 that's not what it was. It seems like it would 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.280 have been a pretty noticeable bullet hole. You would think 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:19.680 that somebody would have noticed that big old bullet hole. Lot. 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:21.880 That would have done a hell of a lot of damage, 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:24.280 like missing skull damage. Yeah, like like you know, the 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:26.400 other side of the skull blasted away the Yeah, the 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.160 bullet would probably not be rattling around in his skull. Yeah, 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.760 probably gone out to the other side. Yeah. The one 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:33.440 that they found was actually a very old Smith and 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.800 Weston It's called the first issue or excuse me, the 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.120 first model revolver and the d It was called that 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.240 because it was the very first gun that Smith and 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:44.000 Wesson ever made. It was made around the time of 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:48.480 the American Civil War, so it's old, very old antique gun. Uh. 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:52.520 And it was a single action revolver, seven shots chambered 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.960 in twenty two short, which is about the most anemic 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.960 round you can think of. Tiny, little, very anemic, little 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:01.040 small round. Sorry you said it. On a lot of 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.400 sources it says it's forty five, but you know it's 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.280 something else. How do you know that? Well, well, number 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:08.960 one there was there was actually what I thought was 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:11.280 a fairly comprehensive article in one of the Scottish papers 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:12.840 about it, and they actually had a picture of the 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:16.840 revolver and so and so. And I'm not an expert 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.359 on smith and lesson antique revolvers by any means, but 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:21.399 I did a little googling on, you know, antiques. I 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.560 found a website where all these things were up for 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:26.359 auction and there were quite a few of those old 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.760 first model ones out there, and I compared the photos 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:33.840 very carefully, and you know, they looked absolutely identical. They were, 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:35.560 and I did a little research. It was indeed, the 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.480 first model was a seven shot revolver, just like this 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.919 this thing, and the story was and then beyond that story, 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:44.359 the official inquiry was also was also quoted in a 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:48.399 few places too, was conduct two. They didn't see what 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:50.119 the model was, but well, but they call it a 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.040 They don't call it a twenty two. They call it 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.200 a point to toot to. Yeah, I was gonna say, 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:59.280 are also aren't there different namings for the size of 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:03.680 calibers and different countries that inaccurate Some of them can be. 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:06.520 Depends Yeah, it depends on them. But I think because 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:08.840 of the age of this gun, it was just it 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.000 was a pretty well established it's just that we call 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.000 it a twenty two. They call it a point to too. 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:17.880 But if you buy a box of twenty two caliber here, 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:23.760 it's got the the decimal point is there? Yeah, yeah, okay, yesterday, 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.399 So I just wanted to clarify. Yeah, and you do, 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.160 and we do indeed know that it was actually much smaller. 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:32.320 It wasn't much smaller around yeah and uh, and this 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.120 is why this would explain I think the the the 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:37.840 empty cartridge case thing that was in there, because this 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:40.760 was a lot of the really old single actions. What 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:42.959 they didn't have a safety notch or anything in the hammer, 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.240 and so when the gun was fully loaded, your hammer 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.280 was resting on the primer of a of a hot round. 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:52.600 And so if you drop the gun or something just 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:54.600 fell on you on your gonna whack the hammer, it 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:56.480 could go off and maybe shoot you in the leg. 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:58.720 It was maybe a safety precaution that you'd have one 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:01.240 just empty shell case. You'd either leave it. You would 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.919 either leave that whole thing empty, or he'd put a 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:07.280 piece of brass casing in there. Uh. And so that's 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:09.000 probably what it did, is you just put an empty 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:12.080 shell casing in there to put his hammer down. That's 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:15.600 what I think, But I'm not totally sure when Pierre supposition, 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:18.520 but I would not. I would not personally hear that 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.160 gun with the hammer down on a live round myself. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:23.040 So that was apparently I don't know where he got 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:24.760 that from. It might have just been in the family 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:28.080 for years, who knows, but he he apparently Pardoner friends 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:29.639 had had that gun for a long time, and some 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.040 people said he had started carrying it for personal protection 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:35.400 and it was his gun. Apparently was his gun. Yeah, 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.240 but it wasn't registered. I mean, that's the thing about 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.640 Europe is, like, you know, it's supposedly a gun free area, 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:42.200 but it just seems like a lot of people have 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.439 these old guns just lying around. Yeah, you know what 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:49.360 I mean. I'm trying to remember when the big push 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:54.040 to get guns out of the British aisles were and 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.359 I believe it was after this, but well I believe 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.720 it was after this, but but it was right around 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:02.240 the same time. Like I mean, it didn't the entire 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:06.760 country did not go gunless right away. It took quite 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:10.440 a few years for that to take effect. Yeah, No, 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:12.440 I mean, I mean the big push to really get 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:14.679 rid of every single gun took place after this. That 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.600 was after the big dumb Blaine master, right, So it's 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:21.239 not it's not crazy that he had a gun. Oh no, 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.280 not like if it was today and what was the 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:28.520 last prime minister is David Blaine? Was that his name? Cameron? 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:31.320 Thank you, David Cameron. I am good with names today. 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:35.040 The dumb magician guy. See the same thing to me 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:37.640