1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff I've 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 1: never told you. As draws to a close, I've been 3 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: looking back on this year that honestly feels like it's 4 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: been probably seventeen years. It has been one of a 5 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: lot of growth for me. I've worked on confidence, either 6 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,919 Speaker 1: fake or real, being better about acknowledging both my strengths 7 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: and my weaknesses. And I've learned how to forgive, which 8 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: that has been a hard one for me. I'm a 9 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: very late bloomer when it comes to forgiveness. And as 10 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: of very recently, I've gotten better about asking for help 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: when I need it. I've learned to be accepting of 12 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: parts of myself. Um, I've rejected my entire life, but 13 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: I have a lot of growing up to do. I 14 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: still have a lot of growing to do. Since the 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: teen election, I have been behaving very destructively. I call 16 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: it self destructive Annie, And in some ways I think 17 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: I needed it, but it was really unhealthy. I slept 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: barely at all, and when I did, it was on 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 1: the floor or wherever I happened to be. I ordered 20 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: unhealthy food at all hours of the nights. I ran 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: way too much to work off all of the food 22 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: that I was eating. I drank too much. I haven't 23 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: made time for myself or my mental health. So I 24 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: hope in this new year, among other things, I can 25 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 1: let self destructive annie go. And I would love to 26 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: hear from you listeners, what you do well, what you 27 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: want to work on in your hopes for this new year. 28 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: In the meantime, here's an episode looking at why women 29 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: sometimes feel at pressure to downplay their successes. Goodbye, It's 30 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: been real. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told you from 31 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: how Stop works dot com. Hello, welcome to the podcast 32 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: from Caroline and I'm Kristen, and so we're talking about 33 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: the the internet phenomenon that literally everyone should be familiar with, 34 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: which is basically hashtag humble brag, hashtag lucky girl, this 35 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: whole phenomenon of posting things on the Internet to make 36 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: yourself look great but not necessarily show off how much 37 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: effort went into it. And this really made me. I 38 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: had to have some some introspection, Kristen. I needed to 39 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 1: think back to figure out if I had done this, 40 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: and I think I was guilty of this, probably when 41 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: I was younger, like literally when Facebook first came out 42 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: and we were in college, because we're so old, I 43 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,119 Speaker 1: feel like it was much more common. And I say 44 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: that as if it's like someone other than myself. And 45 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: I think that now I'm so turned off when other 46 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: people do it online that I, as a grown person, 47 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: try to avoid bragging on the internet. Bragging or humble bragging. 48 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: Oh well, the humble brag, you know, like showing my 49 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: glamorous podcast or lifestyle on the internet just to make 50 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: myself look better. So in what ways would you humble 51 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: bragg on Facebook back in yielden days, the old two 52 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: thousand four. I don't know. I can't come up with 53 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: like a specific example, but um, but everybody knows that 54 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: humble brag if if if you haven't done it, you've 55 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: seen it. It's the kind of thing where you know, 56 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: people are like, oh, you know, I had to get 57 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: up so early to go win that marathon race today 58 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: hashtag blast. I intentionally defriended an ext of mine years 59 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: ago now because I didn't want to yield to the 60 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: temptation to turn my Facebook into one big humble brag. 61 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,839 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're like, look how fine I am. I'm 62 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: just so great. Yeah. I have a friend who will 63 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: remain un named, who recently went through a breakup. And 64 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: and Kristen she might she's doll a little bit of that. Yeah, 65 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: and and that's kind of what we're talking about, Like 66 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: we we we know the humble brag, we know the 67 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: outright bragging on social media, but it's this whole lucky 68 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: girl phenomenon of posting stuff on the Internet, whether it's 69 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: a picture on Instagram or a status on Facebook or Twitter. Um, 70 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: that looks great, you know, maybe your apple pick in 71 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: North Georgia or going through wine country in California. And 72 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: and it's beautiful, and you've got a wonderful picture, but 73 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: you don't indicate what's going on behind the scenes. Maybe 74 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 1: you did go through a breakup. Maybe you had to 75 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: take fifty pictures for one to turn out right, you know. Well, 76 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: and speaking of what's going on behind the scenes, did 77 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: you have to take fifty plus photos? This is very 78 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: reminiscent of what was happening earlier in November with social 79 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: media star as Sina O'Neill, who took herself off of 80 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: Instagram and all of her platforms because she fessed up 81 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: that it's all fake. Shocking. Yeah, yeah, she said she 82 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: was tired of the whole you know, sponsored post rigamarole 83 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: that she was tired of caring as a teenager. She's 84 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: really young. I think she's just eighteen now, she said, 85 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: you know, she was tired of being such a young 86 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: person whose entire life was dedicated to putting forth this front, 87 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: this hyper stylized, hyper fashioned, hyper dieted front, when really 88 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: none of that was giving her any happiness. That it 89 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: was portraying an amazing lifestyle. But then, of course there's 90 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: the whole question that we're going to get into as 91 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: well of actually owning our success and being comfortable in 92 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: our success and achievements and good things that happened. Because 93 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: while I think it's totally responsible as an Internet person 94 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: to have your humble brag radar on and do what 95 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: you can to control your output of it, there's the 96 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: line between that and then being completely averse to any 97 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: type of self promotion or sharing good things to happen 98 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: because you don't want to seem like you're being too boastful. Yeah. Well, 99 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: so the article that I saw that got my wheels 100 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: turning on this was in the Atlantic in September of 101 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: this year, and they were talking about this whole what 102 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: they call vi bating hashtag lucky Girl phenomenon um. And 103 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: like we said, this is basically just posting the fruits 104 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: of your sometimes very extensive labor or hardship without acknowledging 105 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: the hard work that went into making it. Whether this 106 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 1: is getting engaged, whether this is uh preparing a meal, 107 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: you know, like it could be anything. It could be small, large, significant, 108 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: or insignificant. But it's simply putting forth this image, like 109 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: we said that everything's hunky dory, when perhaps he really 110 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: had to work for it. Well, And that's why when 111 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: I got engaged and shared it with my Facebook friends, 112 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: I first uploaded just a photographic montage of all the 113 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: fights and tears that my fiancee and I had experienced 114 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: in the previous couple of years. And like it was 115 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: such a long walk down the Wall of China, you know, 116 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: that old wall of China. And how actually this is true. 117 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: How in the car ride do the Great Wall of 118 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: China where or podcasts vans who are not aware that's 119 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: where my proposal took place. That it was amazing, but 120 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: I didn't think it was going to happen because in 121 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: the van ride there he was rasing me the whole time. 122 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: I was like, well, he's being very unromantic today, so 123 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: Shirley's little bait and switch, little bit an affection bait 124 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: and switch. And don't think that academics haven't gotten in 125 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: on this because it is tied into so much gendered stuff. 126 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: You know, social media is so hot right now, you guys. 127 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: But they wrote that it reflects something deeper and perhaps 128 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: pernicious in contemporary culture, the pressure young women feel to 129 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: be effortlessly perfect. And they're citing a two thousand three 130 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: Duke University study that coined effortlessly perfect, although I'm sure 131 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: other people have said that phrase before. They write that 132 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: you have to have it all together, but don't let 133 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: them see you sweat. Doesn't this seem to tie into 134 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: the broader have it all goal for sure, just all 135 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: part of it um and Cosopaltian magazine is having none 136 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: of it either. They recently talked about this hashtag lucky girl, 137 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: which is super common on Instagram in particular, and they 138 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: described it as weirdly distancing and its annoying refusal to 139 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: take any credit, using the fictional example of a girl 140 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: who graduated and landed this amazing job without noting that, oh, 141 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: you know, I had all these summer internships and how 142 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: to do all this networking and email like two hundred 143 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: random people and finally got this job. But instead all 144 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: you see is hashtag lucky girl. Yeah. And that's not 145 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: to say that you know, you can't, for instance, post 146 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: a picture on the first day of that new job 147 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: and be super excited or whatever, but it's that whole 148 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: attributing everything to luck instead of and not that you 149 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: would necessarily say like hashtag I had to email two 150 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: people to get this job. But it's the it's the 151 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: combination of not owning your own success and hard work 152 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: and also um portraying your life for the event or 153 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: whatever it is in a way that's like, oh, yeah, 154 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: you know me, I'm just so good at this hashtag 155 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: us gosha. Well, and there is a gendered element to 156 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: this social media good fortune as well, and this is 157 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:10,599 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why, of course we wanted to 158 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: talk about it on Stuff Mo'm Never Told You Because 159 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: analytics company Crimson Hexagon looked at the statistics over the 160 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: past year and found that women on Twitter are the 161 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 1: ones using lucky fifty six percent of the time, and 162 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: that she gets up to sixty seven percent when it's 163 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: specifically in the first person. So I'm so lucky, and 164 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: it seems to be most common in the romantic arena. 165 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: So proposals, romantic dates. I don't know what else, what's 166 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:50,719 Speaker 1: what is romantic swiping? Right? I don't know what do 167 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: people post? A lot of people post on the Internet. 168 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. Um, well, so why why is it gendered? 169 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: Why is does it seem to be more women? The 170 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: Atlantic Sites author Rachel Simmons, who wrote The Curse of 171 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: the Good Girl, who says that it's about women's reluctance 172 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: to take ownership of their accomplishments, which Kristen to me, 173 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: sounds really familiar. Since you and I did an episode 174 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 1: about the imposter syndrome, we talked about Lenin. We've talked 175 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: in general just a lot about professional women who maybe 176 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: don't speak up enough for themselves. And so as part 177 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: of that, we've talked about how ladies are already less 178 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: likely to self promote and ask for more money, ask 179 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: for a raise, negotiate for a higher salary, and hand 180 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: in hand with that, they are more likely to give 181 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: credit to others. And so, speaking of Lenin, Cheryl Sandberg writes, 182 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: ask a man to explain his success, and he will 183 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: typically credit his own innate qualities and skills. Ask a 184 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: woman the same question, and she'll likely attribute her success 185 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: to external factors, insisting she did well because quote, she 186 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: worked really hard, or got lucky, or had help from others. 187 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: So this sounds pretty related to what we're talking about, absolutely, 188 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: and it's not just Sandberg coming up with that. I mean, 189 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: there are so many studies in both academic and workplace 190 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: settings that corroborate this, and a lot of it seems 191 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: to route back to this likability factor where women are 192 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: often in this double bind, especially if they are ambitious 193 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: of wanting to succeed, but also wanting to remain likable 194 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: at the same time. And unfortunately, those two things don't 195 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: always go hand in hand thanks to gender issues in 196 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,559 Speaker 1: work environments, and women especially for that reason, don't want 197 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: to appear to be bragging, if not only to protect 198 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: themselves from criticism, but also to protect other people's feelings. 199 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: They might not want to damage a friend or partners ego. 200 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: They might want to make other feel other people feel 201 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: comfortable around them, they want to stay relatable. Yeah, one 202 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: of the articles we were reading about this, I can't 203 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: remember if it was in Forbes, but they were interviewing 204 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: a woman who was very successful but also a very 205 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: hard worker. I mean, things weren't just handed to her. 206 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: She wasn't just hashtag lucky. She worked really hard. And 207 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 1: she said she felt like she couldn't publicly sort of 208 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: enjoy the fruits of her labor. Uh, you know, she 209 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: felt like she couldn't carry the fancy handbag out to 210 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: dinner or by you know, the very expensive meal off 211 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: the menu. She felt like she kind of had to, 212 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: I guess, do the financial equivalent of dumbing herself down. 213 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: But the thing is that ended up, she said, sparking 214 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: sort of a cycle of well, I don't want to 215 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: brag about my success, but I at least want to 216 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: talk about it with my friends. And the less I 217 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: talk about it or feel I have to hide it, 218 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: the worst I feel about myself. And so it creates 219 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 1: this whole cycle of if you're not self promoting, which 220 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: that tends to have a negative connotation anyway, But if 221 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: you're not self promoting, then other people won't know how 222 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: great you are. So, I mean, it is a fine line, 223 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: and it's especially fine for women who statistically tend to 224 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: be so much more nervous about coming off as bragging 225 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: or just coming off as you know, I'm better than 226 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: you somehow. And not only is there that issue of 227 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: our worries about other people's perceptions, but also our own 228 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 1: twisted perceptions of our own success. And this really gets 229 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: into imposter syndrome territory where we do genuinely believe that 230 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: we are lucky and nothing else because we feel like 231 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: we don't deserve the achievements and successes that we've had. 232 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: And this turns into this cycle where you kind of 233 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: can never self promote, which was something that software engineer 234 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: Natasha Muritia shared in Forbes. Yeah. She wrote that if 235 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: you believe that you've got a big promotion because of 236 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: luck rather than your hard work, you're probably not going 237 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: to feel right bragging about how much you deserve the 238 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: promotion and how awesome you are. Instead, she writes, you're 239 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: going to feel like a scam artist who got lucky, 240 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: and that you'd be lying if you said you deserved it. 241 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: So what is up with that? What's the deal? The deal? 242 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: Lucky Girls? Wait? Hold on? Caroline's Jerry Seinfeld in the studio. 243 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: He's always sneaking in here under the stable. It's really uncomfortable. 244 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: He like keeps asking us to get in his car. 245 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: I wish Elaine Bennee would sneak into the studio from 246 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: time to time, you and me, Both she and I 247 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: have similar dance moves. Oh my gosh, me too. We 248 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: just have a podcast studio dance party. We're I think 249 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: we are just clearly outright bragging that our dance skills 250 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: are as good as Elaine benees. They are as elbow 251 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:43,479 Speaker 1: and knee heavy as all eb I know it. But seriously, 252 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: what's up with all that? And I'm not talking about 253 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: our dance skills, although perhaps we should, uh yeah. Writing 254 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: over at Forbes in July, Peggy Drexler wrote that societal 255 00:15:54,760 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: expectations for female behavior traditionally and enduringly value my honesty 256 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: and collaboration. And so even if you think, oh, we'll 257 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: screw everybody, we should feel confident in our abilities or 258 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: in our accomplishments or whatever. You would be foolish to 259 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: think that women don't internalize societal norms and expectations, especially 260 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: things that have been around forever. That women just need 261 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: to quietly enjoy baking at home, not that you can't 262 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: I like quietly baking at home, baking and then taking 263 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: endless photos of your perfect baking right right, and just 264 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: hashtag lucky the eggs are really good today. I didn't 265 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: even I barely had to stir um well. And it 266 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:42,359 Speaker 1: doesn't help either that pop culture enjoys the trope of 267 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: the self deprecating heroine or the charming but Downdrawden woman, 268 00:16:47,880 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: as as Drexler points out. So what really struck me 269 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 1: in comparing and contrasting the whole like lucky girl humble 270 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 1: bragging social media thing with the professional accomplishments thing is 271 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: that all of those career articles that we just cited 272 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,239 Speaker 1: Kristen seem to have a lot more to do with 273 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: having a chieved success through hard work, through effort, but 274 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: not wanting to seem like you're bragging about the success itself, 275 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: when really you have every reason to be pleased with 276 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: yourself and to be confident about the work you've done, 277 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: Whereas the social media lucky girl stuff, on the other hand, 278 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: seems like to me that it's putting the success on 279 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: display but then downplaying the effort so that everyone is 280 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: aware of when you're successful or when something awesome is 281 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: happening without being aware that behind the scenes you could 282 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: very well be struggling. Yeah, or that it just requires 283 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: a lot of work. Allah Sena O'Neill taking a bazillion 284 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: photos just to get one where her collar bone looks 285 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: especially perfect? Well, yeah, exactly, and I mean yes, of 286 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: course she is lucky in the literal traditional sense of 287 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: the word, because she's getting or was getting free stuff 288 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: from designers to wear on her blog. But on the 289 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: other hand, what we didn't see, uh is, yeah, like 290 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,239 Speaker 1: Kristen said, all of the work that went into it, 291 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: that she had to make her sister take five pictures 292 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: of her in a single dress. Do we think that 293 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: that these are the same women doing both things at 294 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: various times where we might be curating, almost to keep 295 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: to keep up with this social media lingo that we're 296 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: kind of curating how we display our effort versus success 297 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: and maybe the audience where it's okay to show portray success, 298 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: whatever that might be, whether it's success in the sense 299 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: of being very beautiful or very adventurous or successum in 300 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: a more professional setting. I'm sure, I mean, I'm sure 301 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: in the Venn diagram of all of this stuff, is 302 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: absly overlaps. But I do think the motivations are pretty different. 303 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: I think that um not wanting to make your friends. 304 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 1: Maybe you're you don't want to make your unemployed friend 305 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable by talking about your incredible rays at work. UM, 306 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: so you kind of hide that, even though you should 307 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: be very proud of it. Whereas if you're posting all 308 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: of these vacation pictures from a tropical location and you're like, oh, 309 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, I just just landed in Bali, so jet 310 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: lag hashtag blass, hashtag lucky. You know, it's like the motivations, 311 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: they're different. I got a hunch, I've got a stuff 312 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: mom never told you hunch. Why. That is why posting 313 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: your vacation photos and food photos and beauty picks, etcetera, 314 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: without showing the effort behind it is more acceptable because 315 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: that's more feminine gendered leisure time, cooking, being beautiful, curating 316 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: your image just are all things that we expect of 317 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: the traditional feminine role, whereas things like ambition, raises, leaning 318 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: in in the boardroom are still transgressive in some ways 319 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: to feminine gender roles. Yeah, so maybe it feels more dangerous. 320 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: Absolutely it could. You don't want to. You don't want 321 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: to be threatening to those around you, whether it's friends, partners, 322 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: or even you know, fellow coworkers or whatever. Um. And 323 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: then I mean as far as like the vacation pictures 324 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: and hashtag lucky like, yes, it could be that that's 325 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: a traditionally feminine thing. It could also be that some 326 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: of these people are jerks and they just want to 327 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: find They're going to find a way to brag about 328 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: what they're doing. It's just that bragging is such an 329 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: unfeminine thing to do traditionally and socially, and so they've 330 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: almost got to hide the brag, or seem to be 331 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: attempting to hide the brag behind, whether it's a humble 332 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: brag or whether it's just saying that you lucked out 333 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 1: instead of you know, no, you paid for that plane ticket, 334 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: you saved up for months, and then you flew to 335 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: Bolly by yourself. You're alone in Bolly. Gosh darn it, 336 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: you eat pray love, you're crying in that cocktail. But 337 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: what really fascinates me with all of this is how, 338 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: especially the hashtag lucky girl, is a product of this 339 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: very Lady mag promoted idea of effortlessness I mean, how 340 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: many fashion spreads have we seen in our favorite fashion 341 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: magazines have ways to look effortlessly attractive and on trend 342 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: this season. Now when I literally do the effortless thing, 343 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: so I literally put no effort into what I'm doing, Um, 344 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: it's terrifying. And people get this concerned look on their face, like, 345 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: oh God, have you just been evicted? You know, like 346 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: I am. I didn't do my hair yesterday at all, 347 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: like I might have run a brush through it, but 348 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: I basically woke up hashtag woke up like this and 349 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: my this is like frizzed hair out to hear, arms 350 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: super wide, you know, no makeup, dark circles under my eyes. 351 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: That is my effortless And as L magazine pointed out 352 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: and a really kind of funny and interesting spread they did, 353 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: it costs so much money to look quote unquote effortless, 354 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: not homeless, which is what I look like yesterday. It's 355 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: our Whole Athletisure podcast and how you have these high 356 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: end designers getting into athletisure where just so that we 357 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: can look as if we might be going to the gym. Oh, 358 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: I know, I gave this woman in Whole Foods the 359 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 1: side eyed today. Uh, not intentionally, but like literally just 360 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: trying not to look directly at her because I didn't 361 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: want to be creep. But she was totally in line 362 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: at Whole Foods, wearing the full like yoga uniform. But 363 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,879 Speaker 1: and I don't mean to be a judge word, but 364 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: like full face of makeup, like heavy, heavy, full face 365 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: of makeup with lashes and everything. And I was like, 366 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: I bet she's doing the athletesure thing. You're going home 367 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: after this and you haven't been to the gym, or 368 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 1: maybe she's going to pure bar. Who knows you gotta 369 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: look good well, And speaking of makeup, it also reminds 370 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: me of the whole no makeup makeup trend, where the 371 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: whole thing is to spend a lot of time making 372 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: your face look as flawless as possible with a lot 373 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: of makeup, but not looking like you have much makeup on. 374 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: And ps, I have not mastered it yet. Yeah, I'm 375 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: just going with the no makeup. No literally, there's no makeup. 376 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: Look now I have to put on enough concealer to 377 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: not look like a broken out thirteen year old girl. 378 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: And then because I've put on so much concealer and 379 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: I'm already very pale, as my mother liked to remind 380 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: me all while I was growing up. I know I've 381 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: told you before that my mother always used to tell 382 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 1: me that I needed more blusher. So if I don't 383 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: want to look dead, I've forgotted them put blush on. 384 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: But then if I'm nothing but like a white sheet 385 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: with two red dots on my cheeks, well, now I've 386 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: kind of put on mascare so that you can at 387 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: least see that I have eyeball. You kind of get 388 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: that Marionette look excessive blusher. I mean, I do draw 389 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: the lines from my lips over the corner of my 390 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: mouth down to my chin, so I look like a puppet. 391 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: That's just that's natural. Well, and how in that l 392 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,959 Speaker 1: magazine spread that you were just referencing, what do they do? 393 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: They added up all of the costs of these effortless 394 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: and quotes outfits like at leisurely outfits, all the drap 395 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: shirts and sneakers and vegan leather leggings and the cold 396 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: press juices and all the things, all the various things, 397 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: and uh rounded it up to it costing over what 398 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: like on thousand dollars a year to look effortless. Yeah, 399 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: that's if you want to do all of the stuff 400 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 1: that they've broken down, all the lotions and the potions 401 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 1: and the hair creams and the face creams and and 402 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: the clothes and on the watches and all that stuff. 403 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: But they I think they tallied up like just one 404 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: maybe one week's worth of outfits and stuff like that, 405 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: and it's still came to fifty grand. I mean, if 406 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: you've got the designer boyfriend jeans, the designer tunic, the 407 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 1: designer calftan over a designer calftan. But I'll know I've 408 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: made it, Captain. I long for it. Um. But yeah, 409 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: and so they make an interesting point though, they say 410 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,439 Speaker 1: it's probably no coincidence that during this moment culturally of 411 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: unprecedented buzziness or at least perceived business, because I think 412 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: we've talked before, right about how we're just in this 413 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: age of like, I'm working so late. Everybody's bragging about 414 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 1: working all the time even when they're not. Uh. They say, 415 00:25:54,400 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: this new aspirational lifestyle is one marked by leisure and ease. Unfortunately, 416 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: looking effortless is not making us less busy or any 417 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: richer or less and secure. For that matter, our era 418 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: of sartorial and corporeal nonchalance rests on a myth that 419 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: looking natural and being low maintenance are one and the same. 420 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: But they write for most of us who weren't born 421 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 1: hashtag blessed, they are definitely not. And speaking of hashtag blessed, 422 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: it made me oh so happy when in uh the 423 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: New York Times published a trend piece on hashtag blessed 424 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: by friend of the podcast Jessica Bennett, who described it 425 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: as quote invoking holiness as a way to brag about 426 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: your life, and hashtag blessed is, you know, sort of 427 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: the evolution of the humble brag, where it's like, I'm 428 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: so aware of what I'm doing, and sometimes hashtag blessed 429 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: is your use in purely comedic forms, Um I have 430 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: I've done that before. Whether people have laughed at it, 431 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. On Twitter, That's how I first became 432 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: familiar with hashed. The concept of hashtag bless is not 433 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: literally Christen Conger hashtagging blessed, but the idea of just 434 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 1: like what I know, just the idea of someone being like, 435 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: you know, I picked my sandwich up off the floor 436 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 1: and it was still edible. Hashtag blessed I wasn't. I 437 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: think I don't know if this gives away too much 438 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: about the type of people I follow on social media, 439 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: but I wasn't and I'm still not following anyone who 440 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: legitimately says that they are blessed, because those people are 441 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: out there, I think by this point, especially considering this 442 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: piece came out in which is like a bazillion years 443 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: ago and Twitter years, Um, if you are actually using 444 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 1: hashtag blessed and a non religious meaning, I think you 445 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: haven't caught onto the internet and how it speaks. Yeah, 446 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 1: I mean, so Bennet's writing about how in that period 447 00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: that snapshot of time in everybody in a Twitter feed 448 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: on her Facebook wall, everybody's hashtag blessed about something anything 449 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: from being accepted to grad school, uh, to getting tickets 450 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: to Fashion Week to going on SPA weekends, you know, 451 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: And like, I get it. I get the sarcastic hashtag blessed. 452 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: And I'm cool with like the religious like actual Christian 453 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: grandmother saying she's blessed for one of the tweets hashtag blast. 454 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: I'm cool when the pope does it. But it's that 455 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,959 Speaker 1: like middle ground of just just stop, just stop. I'm oh, 456 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: I'm so look at my manicure hashtag blessed well, and 457 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: it's so transparent. Um and Bennett talked to noted linguists 458 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: Deborah Tannin about it, who said that what makes these 459 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: examples humble brags isn't the blessed itself, but the context, 460 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: because what you're really doing is telling the world, for instance, 461 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: that maybe your fiance is the best, or you've been 462 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: invited to do something impressive, or you have this beautiful 463 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: long aided fingers. If you're saying hashtag blessed about your 464 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: manny petty, do you know I'm gonna admit something embarrassing. 465 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: It has little to do little to nothing to do 466 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: with humble brags and hashtag blessed. But so I am 467 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: ridiculously clumsy, especially when it comes to sharp objects. And 468 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: I've cut several fingers on my right hand and the 469 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: other day, uh, the only band aids in my direct 470 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: vicinity were red band aids with white high heels all 471 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: over them, and so I had my hands covered in 472 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: these like hilariously lady terrific band aids, and I thought, 473 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: like this is hysterical. I'm going to take a picture 474 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: and post this to Instagram like this is really funny, 475 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: and so I did, but I was like, my fingers 476 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: look fat. You deleted it well and I still have 477 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: the picture, but I didn't post it. I didn't post 478 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: it to Instagram listeners. I saw the band aids and 479 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: I loved them. Kristen was like, what did you do 480 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: to yourself? And where did you get those band aids? 481 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think they were my Christmas stalking 482 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: or something. It looked like they would come well with 483 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: like Barbie. Oh my god. They came in one of 484 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: those tins, you know that's like Lady Emergency. Oh Lord. 485 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: But I was like, I kind of opened the tin. 486 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm just I need bandaids. I'm covered 487 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: in cuts from like cooking dinner and trying to open 488 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: a box from Amazon. How about a hashtag? But so 489 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: back to linguist Deborah Tannin, Uh, she's right on the money. 490 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: Humble bragging is a million percent transparent and it just 491 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: makes you look like a jerk. According to science, it's 492 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: not just Christian and me, it's science. According to a 493 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: study in Psychological Science in May, humble braggers overestimate positive 494 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: responses and underestimate negative ones to their posts thanks to 495 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,959 Speaker 1: an empathy gap. It sounds like buch a psychopath. Uh. 496 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: This is basically like not putting themselves in other shoes. So, 497 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: for instance, a humble bragger might see someone else online 498 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: humble bragging and being like, so tacky. I don't like 499 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: that at all. But when it comes to them humble 500 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: bragging about a vacation or a new car or whatever 501 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: it is, They're like, people are going to be so 502 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: happy for me, but I don't want to out and 503 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: out brag because I don't want to be a jerk. 504 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: So I'm just kind of kind of like humble brag, 505 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: you know that kind of thing. So they get a 506 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: vanity plate for their new car that's hashtag like l 507 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: K Y g R L Instagram that, oh god, you 508 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: know that exists. I'm sure it does because I own it, 509 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: because it's me, my dented hatchbag. That that is true. 510 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: I'm not even joking about the hatchbag part and the dents, right, No, 511 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: I would never leave out the dents. But speaking of 512 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: a dented hatchbag, is this a decent segue into the 513 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: hot mess? Humble brag totally? And how we see this 514 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: propped up in pop culture and Caroline, we were having stuff. 515 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: Mom never told you mental synchronicity somehow, because right before 516 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: you sent me this slate piece examining this whole hot 517 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: mess phenomenon that we see among our fave Hollywood starletts 518 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: and the women they portray on screen, a girlfriend of 519 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: mine sent me a similar piece over at Salon, basically 520 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: being like, what's up with this whole self deprecating hot 521 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: mess situation? Which I feel like was really exemplified by 522 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: Liz Lemon on thirty Rock originally because here we have 523 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: a super successful woman, is us like such a hot 524 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: mess in so many ways? But we see it more 525 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: off screen with a lot of stars today as well. Yeah, 526 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: just a lot of women who are it's it's it 527 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: goes back to that relatability thing that we mentioned earlier, 528 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: with the whole professional woman thing of of enjoying great 529 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: success and being you know, multi hyphen It's maybe these 530 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: celebrities are writers and actresses and producers and directors who 531 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: knows what they are, but still they aim for relatability 532 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,719 Speaker 1: by talking about, Oh, I drank too much, you know, 533 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: I had bad sex the other night. I never exercise. Yeah, god, 534 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: I love pizza, you know, just like saying stars they're 535 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: just like us. But Eileen Giselle at Slate in August 536 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: was not having any of it, not having any of 537 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: it at all. She was talking about how bragging about 538 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: being a hot mess, because that's that's essentially kind of 539 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: what it is. It's another way of bragging about like 540 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: I'm so busy and I'm so accomplished. Basically, Giselle is arguing, like, 541 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: look how busy I am. Look how complicated and complex 542 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: my life is. Uh that I even have time to 543 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: sit here and talk to you. I haven't even brushed 544 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: my hair. Oh my god, Am I bragging about being 545 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: a hot mess conquer and I just talked about not 546 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: brushing my hair? Um. But she says that it's become 547 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: this badge of honor for virtually all successful Caucasian women 548 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: between twenty and forty um, And that was one of 549 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: her big bones to pick with the hot mess trend. 550 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: She's like basically saying that it's only these super privileged, 551 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 1: successful white women who have the luxury of complaining about 552 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: being a hot mess and drawing attention to their screw ups, 553 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: whether it's a fashion choice or a job choice. Or 554 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: a life choice, where she argues women of color uh 555 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: feel more compelled to not brag, but just emphasize their 556 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: success so that they are taken seriously. She writes, successful 557 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: women of color are painfully aware the public conceptions of 558 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: their race presume hot mess status, and she gives the 559 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: example of Lena Dunham interviewing Carrie Washington for I think 560 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 1: it was Murray Claire and how Carrie Washington was on 561 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: the cover and the headline was something like, oh, we 562 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: all want to be Carrie Washington. And meanwhile, Lena Dunham 563 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: herself is obviously very successful, a very hard worker, like 564 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: an over worker, overachiever. You know, she's got She's definitely 565 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: a multi high in it. And so Gizell writes that 566 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: hyper successful white women can brag about being clueless messes 567 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: all Elina Dunham, while black women all like Carry Washington 568 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:14,439 Speaker 1: are turned into what she calls surrogate philosophics. So being 569 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: a hot mess is a byproduct of white privilege. That's 570 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: what Giazel is arguing. You should have read the comments 571 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 1: section under it. No, actually you shouldn't have. You tell 572 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: me about it. What were the comments like, um, well, no, 573 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: the comments were all over the place, as one might 574 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: expect for anything on the internet, but a lot of 575 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: people were coming to say, um, so we can't have 576 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: a bad day and just like complain about not having 577 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: time to brush our hair because we've got so much 578 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: work to do or something like that, and um, you know, 579 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if Gizell does have an answer for 580 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: it or did at the time, but I kind of 581 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: came away from that article feeling the same way of like, yeah, 582 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: I totally can see that how culturally it tends to 583 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: be like young, hot white actresses who like the adorable 584 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: and very talented Anna Kendrick, who like loves to call 585 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: herself a hot mess, And I can see how that 586 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: is sort of a humble brag of like, Ana Kendrick, 587 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: you're so amazing and adorable and successful, and you're sitting 588 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: here like even telling your interviewer to refer to you 589 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: as a hot mess and interviews and so Gisella is saying, like, 590 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: this is such a young white woman thing. But meanwhile, 591 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: you've also got Tracy Ellis Ross, who's a woman of color, 592 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: obviously uh successful actress, amazing person who refers to herself 593 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: as a hot mess. Two in the media, and so 594 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: I kind of came away from that article being like, 595 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: I don't know, I think this is an equal opportunity 596 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,439 Speaker 1: descriptor a self descriptor anyway. But I mean, I see 597 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 1: her point, you know. She also points out that it's 598 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 1: very gendered, the hot mess humble brag. You don't see 599 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: a lot of men going around being like, I'm such 600 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: a hot mess. Instead, she writes, you know, men own 601 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: their success. Yeah, I think that this is over analysis 602 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: to some degree of hot mess really means, because all 603 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: it really is is self deprecating humor, and self deprecating 604 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: humor is something that I've pondered myself in recent years. 605 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: I got to a point later in my twenties where 606 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: self deprecation had been my stick for laughs for a 607 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: really long time. And I kind of not that I'm 608 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: not self deprecating anymore, but I grew out of it 609 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: being such a crutch because it did start to feel 610 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: kind of inauthentic, partially because I was asking myself, well, 611 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: why can't I just also be me when I'm not 612 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: screwing up to other people? Can I be funny in 613 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,720 Speaker 1: other ways as well? Um, So I think it's definitely 614 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: worth thinking about in terms of what success and likability 615 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: mean when you are a woman, because Amy Humor is 616 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: someone whose name comes up with these hot mess convos 617 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: as well, because obviously she's super successful, she's white, and 618 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: her comedic persona is a wild hot mess. But Jed 619 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: Apatow and other people and just like as you can 620 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 1: observe as a human um have noted she is one 621 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 1: of the hardest workers in show business, and her being 622 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: cited as I don't know, like self labeling is a 623 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: hot mess and that's that's not okay. I don't know 624 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: with those kinds of examples, I am skeptical because it's 625 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: her brand. Yeah, it is her brand, and I think 626 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: it's there. And there are plenty of, like I guess 627 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: equivalent male comedians who could potentially be called hot messes themselves. 628 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I see what the writer was saying in 629 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: terms of, like, hey, if you're actually a really hard worker, 630 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:59,439 Speaker 1: like an Amy Schumer, don't equate yourself with somehow being 631 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: out of con roll just by being you. Yeah. Yeah, 632 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: And this is also making me think of how Amy 633 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,839 Speaker 1: Poehler is so the antithesis of the hot mess I mean, 634 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: partially because Leslie Nope obviously has a binder for everything. 635 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:20,439 Speaker 1: But even in Amy Poehler's public presentation, as slapsticky as 636 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: she can be, sometimes she's still very authentic in how 637 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: she works and how work is meaningful to her and 638 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: things that she thinks about, like her family and relationships 639 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: beyond work. It well as well that might at times 640 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: feel like hot messes, but it's just all part of 641 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 1: being a busy, successful woman. And so rounding all of 642 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: this back to the lucky girl phenomenon social media, um 643 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: why women would seek to mask competence or seek to 644 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,359 Speaker 1: mask effort. I mean, it's all part of sort of 645 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: shaping your identity online, which is something that more and 646 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: more of us are doing. There was the stat Pro 647 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: survey that found that a majority of people on social 648 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: media post online in a way that defines their identities. 649 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: And so it's no wonder we want to look good 650 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: in a way that we can control. Yeah, yeah, I mean, 651 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: and I think in some ways, to like hot mess 652 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: can be controlling your own narrative as well, because it 653 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: takes work to make a mess. Yeah, well, and and 654 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: also to be comfortable enough to be up on a 655 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: level where you're comfortable enough to publicly admit like I'm 656 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:41,239 Speaker 1: a mess, Because if you genuinely were falling apart and 657 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: you felt like your life was in a shambles and 658 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: that you could you weren't accomplishing anything, like, would you 659 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: be as comfortable admitting that, like, oh, I'm a hot mess? 660 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 1: It's like, well, no, you really are, Like please let 661 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: me help you. Well, And is there a distinction between 662 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: just being a mess and being a hot mess. Yeah, yeah, 663 00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: culturally I would think so, you know, but I do 664 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: like how Mindy Kaling like wants nothing to do with 665 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: the whole hot mess thing. She has straight up said 666 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: I work like a lot, a lot, and I appreciate 667 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: that as well, if someone who is very transparent about 668 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:19,399 Speaker 1: all of the effort and you know, work that goes 669 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: into building her empire like that. Yeah, she talks about 670 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: how she completely over prepares and works so hard, and 671 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: we're used to hearing about women over preparing in terms 672 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 1: of the imposter syndrome, like I don't believe in myself, 673 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 1: so I have to overwork and be overprepared and then 674 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: I'm stressed out to death. Mindykalings take on it is 675 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,479 Speaker 1: pretty refreshing and that she's saying, no, like, I work 676 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: really hard, I over prepare for anything, but that is 677 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,240 Speaker 1: so that I can go kick ass everything that I do. 678 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: I want that that. Yeah, I like that idea that 679 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 1: that well. I mean, it's just it's confidence and and 680 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 1: owning how much work you actually do. And it's such 681 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,760 Speaker 1: a contrast too to the type of oh over work 682 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 1: and over preparedness that we discussed in our Little Miss 683 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:10,320 Speaker 1: perfect Perfectionism podcast, because that kind of overwork is a 684 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: sign that you're actually not doing things right because you're 685 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: only focused on failure. You're overworking because you are convinced 686 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: that you will fail otherwise, whereas someone like Mindy is 687 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 1: overworking because she's so focused on success. Yeah, and so 688 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:29,479 Speaker 1: it's time everybody to ditch this whole luck discourse of 689 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: everything that you accomplish in your life, anything that happens 690 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,919 Speaker 1: to you, anything that you experience talking it up to luck. 691 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 1: Enough with that. It's time to own your work effort 692 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: and your work ethic and and even the hardships that 693 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: come along with it and how much, even how much 694 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 1: success you've earned. I mean, there's no shame in owning 695 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: any of these things. And at least that could start 696 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,720 Speaker 1: to help engender a little bit of confidence in yourself 697 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,240 Speaker 1: when you're not telling yourself and others like I'm just lucky. 698 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: You're like, oh no, I didn't really do that much 699 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: to get the promotion to be like the CEO of 700 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: this company. So let's start the trending hashtag unlucky girl. 701 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: That's exactly That's exactly what I meant. Hashtag hard working girl. 702 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: Hashag I'm sweating as I type this. Oh, hashtag working girl. 703 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,239 Speaker 1: And then, oh my god, then I could use so 704 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: many Melanie Griffith gifts done perfect. Well, I have a 705 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 1: feeling that this topic resonates with a lot of listeners 706 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: because social media, y'all, it's everywhere, and we're curious to 707 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: know your thoughts on it. Is it something that you've 708 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 1: noticed that you've caught yourself doing something that maybe grates 709 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 1: on your nerves? Hashtag shut up lucky girl. Mom Steff 710 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: at how stuff Works dot com is where you can 711 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,320 Speaker 1: email us. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff 712 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,760 Speaker 1: podcast or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple 713 00:43:52,800 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: of messages to share with you right now. Well, I 714 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 1: have a letter here from Julie about our gendered chef episode. 715 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: She says, I've especially enjoyed listening to your sociological commentary 716 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,840 Speaker 1: on women in stereotypically gendered professions. Me being a woman 717 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,279 Speaker 1: who cares about other women read a feminist, I was 718 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,320 Speaker 1: so excited to finally listen to your gendered Chef episode 719 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 1: this week. Male domination of certain professions is an issue 720 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,160 Speaker 1: close to my heart. My younger sister is considered a 721 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: leader in the stem field. My older sister has a 722 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,200 Speaker 1: PhD from m T and a career in academia. And 723 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,800 Speaker 1: I left my position as a corporate attorney to become 724 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 1: a chef, a pastry chef, and she literally writes que 725 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,319 Speaker 1: sad trombone music. Julia goes on to say, well, I 726 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,280 Speaker 1: agree with every point you made regarding the sadly lacking 727 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: level of female representation and head chef and executive chef positions. 728 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,600 Speaker 1: I do take issue with what I perceived as you 729 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,520 Speaker 1: reinforcing the gendered nature of pastry and banking. It's true 730 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,280 Speaker 1: that more women gravitate to this area of the culinary field. However, 731 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,640 Speaker 1: I made a very risky career movement decided to go 732 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 1: into pastry making, not because I was intimidated by the 733 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: world of chefs de cuisine. But because pastry is something 734 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,840 Speaker 1: that I am passionate about, I understand why you explain 735 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,879 Speaker 1: the fact that pastry and baking has historically been feminized. 736 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,560 Speaker 1: But I think you missed an opportunity to discuss the 737 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,719 Speaker 1: fact that this type of cooking is not less than 738 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,840 Speaker 1: nor less important or rewarding than other types of cooking. 739 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,320 Speaker 1: I would counter that it's the act of feminizing dessert 740 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 1: making that is robbed of the prestige associated with the 741 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:37,120 Speaker 1: male gendered chef de cuisine. There is no less skill artistry, intelligence, knowledge, creativity, danger, sweat, invention, precision, calculation, 742 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: or spontaneity involved in making pastries than there is a 743 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: preparing meat. Instead, what I heard on your podcast is 744 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 1: banter about how disappointing it is that most female chefs 745 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,640 Speaker 1: are still in pastry as if it were a lesser profession. 746 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 1: This is all to say, well, I think it's important 747 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,440 Speaker 1: work discussing the serious and upsetting gender gaps and many professions. 748 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: I would caution against rhetoric the demeans women in largely 749 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,040 Speaker 1: female professions of some less than those enlarging mail ones. 750 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: Though it does take courage and tenacity to succeed in 751 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,240 Speaker 1: male dominated fields. No argument here. It's a step backward 752 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 1: to identify historically female dominated fields is somehow less worthy 753 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,760 Speaker 1: than male ones. She says, thanks again for your podcast, 754 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 1: keep up the good work and the good fight. And Julie, 755 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 1: I have to say I totally agree with you, and 756 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,280 Speaker 1: I was hoping that we were sharing those tidbits about 757 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,080 Speaker 1: women's baking history just as a way to enlighten listeners. 758 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: And I totally did not mean to indicate in any 759 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,840 Speaker 1: way that being a pastry chef, or being involved in 760 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: pastry in any way, whether it's eating it or making it, 761 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,440 Speaker 1: uh is less banned by virtue of being feminist. Well, 762 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,280 Speaker 1: I gotta let her hear from Rosa about our podcast 763 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: on cooking shows, and she writes, while listening to your 764 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:48,880 Speaker 1: show about celebrity chefts, you mentioned that Julia Child found 765 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,720 Speaker 1: her passion and started her career later in her life. 766 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,440 Speaker 1: I enjoyed how both of you commented on the fact 767 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,239 Speaker 1: that there's nothing wrong with finding what you love to 768 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 1: do later in life. Our society really focus on becoming 769 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,760 Speaker 1: highly successful before you reach the right bold age of thirty. 770 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,479 Speaker 1: What's up with that? I'm a seasonal worker and haven't 771 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,879 Speaker 1: found a full time job that I really enjoy yet, 772 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 1: but I'm going to keep on searching and we'll have 773 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,400 Speaker 1: Julia in the back of my mind as my motivation. 774 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 1: So thanks Rosa, and thanks to everyone who's written in 775 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 1: to us. Mom stuff at how stuff works dot com 776 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,239 Speaker 1: is our email address and for links to all of 777 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 1: our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos, 778 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 1: and podcasts, including this one with links to our sources. 779 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,439 Speaker 1: So you can read more about hashtag lucky girls. Head 780 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com 781 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,560 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics because 782 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:53,839 Speaker 1: it how stuff works dot com.