1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how stup 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,959 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today on the show, I'm 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: so excited that we are talking to Nina McLaughlin, who 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: is a carpenter and also the author of her carpentry 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: memoir hammer Head The Making of a Carpenter. Yeah, fascinating reading. Um. 7 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: It's all sort of about the journey that Nina went 8 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: on from being in journalism, which is a familiar story 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: to Kristen and me with our backgrounds um, and sort 10 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: of realizing that, putting it mildly, it's not what she 11 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: wanted to do anymore. She no longer wanted to click 12 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: buttons on on social media for her job. Yeah. I 13 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: mean the first part of the book where she talks 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: about this realization, she comes too with, uh, wanting to 15 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 1: leave this a weekly called The Boston Phoenix after working 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: there for eight years. Was very familiar to Caroline and 17 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: me because we both went to journalism school and graduated 18 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: on the cusp of the transition from print media to 19 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: online media and the entire business model changed, and Nina 20 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: was already working in this field and she talks a 21 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: lot about how the the fast, quick click satisfaction that 22 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: so much of online media is built around really became 23 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: soul crushing in a lot of ways. Yeah, it definitely 24 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: resonated with me because I also left a newspaper amid 25 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: the recession, uh, not knowing what my next step would be, 26 00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: and you know, eventually came to this fabulous podcast and 27 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: she found carpentry. So it's you know, it's a nice 28 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: encouraging tale that, yeah, you can take a leap of 29 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: faith and find something that works better for you. Yeah. 30 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: And and one of the most encouraging things to me 31 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: reading it too was that Nina didn't have this lifelong 32 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: dream of being a carpenter um and it's also uncanny 33 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,679 Speaker 1: too that she would end up in this field that. 34 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,679 Speaker 1: As we talked about on our podcast a little while back, 35 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: on women in construction, it has very few women among 36 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: its ranks. I mean, if we just look at construction 37 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: in general, women make up just two point six percent 38 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: of employees across the board. And we even mentioned in 39 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: that podcast how carpentry apprenticeships often have a really big 40 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: drop off rate for women as well. That's right, I mean, 41 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: it's it's a leaky pipeline issue in apprenticeships in general. 42 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: But yeah, like Kristen said, the issue is so much 43 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: worse in carpenter apprenticeship. Sevent of women end up dropping 44 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: out of those apprenticeship positions. So it was extra fascinating 45 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: for us to read this firsthand account of a journalist 46 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: turned carpenter stepping into this field we usually associate with men. 47 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 1: And I mean, the book itself is fabulously written. It's 48 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: very engaging. She weaves all sorts of bits of history 49 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 1: about carpentry and construction, and then the book she also 50 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: does such a wonderful job describing the deep sense of 51 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: joint satisfaction that she gets out of building something and 52 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: building something slowly. So, before we get into our conversation 53 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: with Nina, which, by the way, she talked to us 54 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: from her carpentry site, so she's not in a recording studio, 55 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: there is a little bit of noise pollution going on, 56 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: but please listen anyway, because she was a fantastic interview. 57 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: So to kick things off, Caroline, could you read an 58 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: excerpt from Hammerhead about how she discovered carpentry. Yeah, Nina 59 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: writes one tiery morning in early spring, doing my daily 60 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: click around the Craigslist job section, reviewing once again the 61 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: same few posts in the writing, editing, and art media 62 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: design sections. I clicked on the etceter category amid postings 63 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: looking for dog walkers, surrogate mothers up to forty dollars tempting, 64 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: and catheter users dollars for your opinion. Less so I 65 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: came across a line of texts that registered itself in 66 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: my chest with a quick extra thump of my heart. 67 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: Carpenter's assistant women strongly encouraged to apply. This simple post 68 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: seemed to glow, holding in at the promise of exactly 69 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: what I've been craving. My fingers fluttered over the keyboard, 70 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: ready to write the note that would convince this person 71 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: that I was the right woman for the job. And 72 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: Nina has talked so much about how that mine women 73 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: strongly Encouraged to apply was what really pushed her to 74 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: do this. She she said before that if that wasn't specified, 75 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: she probably wouldn't have responded to that Craigslist add So listeners, 76 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: allow us to introduce you to Nina McLaughlin. Well, Nina, 77 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,559 Speaker 1: could we start off by hearing a little bit about 78 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: your background and you're sort of seemingly unlikely journey from 79 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: journalism over to carpentry. Sure. So, my my first job 80 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: out of college was at a newspaper, a weekly um 81 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: newspaper in Boston called The Boston Phoenix and UM. And 82 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: it was an amazing place to work. It was sort 83 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: of filled with a bunch of brilliant, bizarre, curious, funny people, 84 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: and it really it didn't feel like work, you know, 85 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: every day was sort of a pleasure. UM. As the 86 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: years went on, my job evolved and I came one 87 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: of the web editors, and that sort of meant the 88 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: hours of my day were spent sort of scaring and 89 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: clicking and scrolling the computer screen. And it started to 90 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: get a little tiresome and it got sort of cosmically boring. UM. 91 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 1: And I found that I was kind of sitting at 92 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: my desk kind of craving something a little bit more tangible, UM, 93 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: and not really knowing what that meant, but knowing that 94 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: I sort of wanted to get away from the screen. 95 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: Heard leading up in two thirty, I you know, finally 96 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: kind of got the current and and quit my job, 97 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: not knowing what I would do next. So this was 98 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: back in two thousand eight, the economy was in the 99 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: totally at the moment, and so there are many maybe 100 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: that month where I was like, oh God, what have 101 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: I done. I have made a huge mistake. I was 102 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: sitting one morning, uh looking at Craigslift and saw posting 103 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: saying carpenter's assistant women strongly encouraged to apply, and no 104 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: sort of knowing that like this was the job that 105 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: I wanted, you know, like this is this is this 106 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: is exactly what I want to do. UM So answered 107 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: the ad and got an interview with UH name Mary, 108 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: a carpentering clot doctor, and UM ended up getting the 109 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: job and have been doing I have been working with 110 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: yours for the last six years, and in fact on 111 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: the job right now and taking a quick break. Well, 112 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: one of the things that we really enjoyed in the 113 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: book are those tidbits of the histories of tools and 114 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: the kind of industry vernacular that you share throughout the book. 115 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: For instance, you have given me a new appreciation for 116 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: the term scoach. So I was wondering if there was 117 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: a particular aspect of that kind of background research that 118 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: you especially enjoyed, something that maybe lent new life to 119 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: your toolbox. Sure. You know, it's funny, like there's so 120 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: many things that I sort of took for granted. For example, UM, 121 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: you know the screwdriver. I just figured that was of 122 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: a tool like the hammer that has been around for essentially, 123 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: you know, since since humans have been using tools, um. 124 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: Not the case of the Philips head, for example, has 125 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: only been sort of in active use um since catillacs 126 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: were being made. A favorite part of the research I 127 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: think was definitely having to do with the with the 128 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: different sort of um evolution of measurement. It's sort of 129 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: all used to be based on the body um, finger length, 130 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: foot length, how long your stride was um in each 131 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: in India, one of the one of the terms has 132 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: to do with the distance um that you can hear 133 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 1: a cow mooing um. And so it's just a sort 134 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: of a neat way to sort of um reckon with space. Uh. 135 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: So that I think sort of impacted so know how 136 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: I moved through the world more than anything else. Well, 137 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: I have to ask them, do you have a favorite 138 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: unit of measurement? Unit of measurement UM? You know you 139 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: mentioned scoch that's that seems like a sort of the 140 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: perfect kind of UM. Both exact in exact measurement, it 141 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: can mean many different things. Um. I was just sort 142 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: of uh selving some boards just a few minutes ago. 143 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: Um and and my boss Mary had just said one 144 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: was a little bit too long, tike a scroll shock that. 145 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: So I've just just been doing that. It's sort of 146 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: a measurement of us all the time. Now. Another thing 147 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: that Nina talks about and that you're almost waiting for 148 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: in Hammerhead is the aspect of being a woman on 149 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: the job site, because, like we've mentioned, it's rare to 150 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: find a woman construction worker, much less a woman carpenter. 151 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: And while she talks about how gender was never an 152 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: issue for her, she does acknowledge that the fact of 153 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: the matter is, as she writes, carpentry is men's work, 154 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: and she goes on to say carpentry is work that 155 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: is statistically done by men. The U. S. Census Bureau 156 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: and it's two thousand eleven survey reports that construction and 157 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: extraction occupations are made up of nineties seven point six 158 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: percent men and two point four percent women. It's the 159 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: most gender disbalance of the occupations they list more than 160 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: engineering and architecture, more than farming, fishing, and forestry work 161 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: more than firefighting, and she goes on to write the 162 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: i w PR cites the hostile environment and many male 163 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: dominated trades as a reason why so few women have 164 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: access to these jobs. There is considerable research suggesting that 165 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: occupational choice is often constrained by socialization. Lack of information 166 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: are more direct barriers to entry to training or working 167 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,599 Speaker 1: occupations where one sex is a small minority of the workforce. 168 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: If no other woman you've known or even know of 169 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: do a certain job, it won't necessarily feel like an 170 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: option for you to take steps to plot out what 171 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: you might like to pursue in your own life. And 172 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: I think just as there are certain jobs like nurse, 173 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: dental hygenaus secretary that some men might feel would call 174 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: in to question their masculinity, the same goes for women. 175 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 1: There are certain jobs that raise questions about femininity. Though 176 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: I didn't often reflect on the scarcity of women doing 177 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,959 Speaker 1: this work in a general sociological sense, I did find 178 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: the work challenging my own ideas and sense of femininity 179 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: and sexuality. So in reading press about your book, it 180 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 1: seems like alongside reporting about oh, she she jumped out 181 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: of her job during during the recession. It seems like 182 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: equally up there is the fact that, oh, and by 183 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: the way, she did this as a woman. And so 184 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: you recently wrote over at Carpentrix about how often you 185 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: get asked about being a woman in such an overwhelmingly 186 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: particularly white, male dominated industry, and considering how much you've 187 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: had to emphasize that gender hasn't been an issue on 188 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: work sites, do you think that your audience here, especially 189 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: like your journalistic audience, is almost wanting the answer to 190 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 1: be the opposite, that you have experienced hostile or unfriendly 191 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: work sites for women. That's a really interesting question, you know, 192 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. It certainly has been almost 193 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: surprising to me how how much people assume how hostile 194 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: it is, and how raunchy, and how you know, you 195 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: guys must be condestant to all the time and it 196 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: must all be kind of just like burping and swearing 197 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: with all these guys around, um, and and you know 198 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: that just I mean, that just hasn't been our experience. 199 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: You know, there's a moment where we've wand across some 200 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: guys that are jerks. There's been some um, certainly some 201 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: places where um we try to avoid some lumber yards 202 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: where the attitudes are a little bit less friendly. UM. 203 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: But I mean, I think the thing about it is that, 204 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,239 Speaker 1: you know, I have had these kind of dual pursuits, 205 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: um in my you know, my sort of professional life, 206 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: and there are me kind of sending guys in journalism 207 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: and in the sort of literary world that I'm in, 208 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: as there are in carpentry, if not more, you know. 209 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: And so I think that there is this kind of 210 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,599 Speaker 1: it's like there's gonna be jerks in any realm, you know. UM, 211 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, I found it maybe even less so 212 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: with the carpentry. The people that we work with are respectful, 213 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: funny um uh and and and sort of it's it's 214 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: a sort of open sharing I don't know, situation where 215 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: there isn't this kind of I don't know, male uh 216 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: certainness for lack of a better word, um. In terms 217 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: of people's expectations, like um, I think it's kind of 218 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 1: a misconception of what people think of um, you know, 219 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: when they think of builders and when they think of 220 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: carpenters and people they think, I think maybe that people 221 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: are uh, these guys are tend to be a little 222 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: rougher around the edges. Um. I mean, and you know, 223 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: I guess it can sort of be true, but I 224 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: think that it's no more less true than it is 225 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: in other industries. Well, I wonder too if, especially in 226 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: reading the book, if maybe that has to do with 227 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: the nature of the work site, because it really seemed 228 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: like from the way that you described interacting, you know, 229 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: at these various jobs, that what mattered was the work, 230 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: and you were all kind of, you know, there with 231 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: your specific skill set, and at the end of the day, 232 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: what mattered wasn't ego necessarily, but whether you know, the 233 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: door fit on the hinge or whether the tile was 234 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: aligned correctly. Do you think that that might have something 235 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: to do with that as well? Yeah, actually absolutely, I 236 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: think that. You know, it's it's it's we're all trying 237 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: to get a job done, you know. So so Mary 238 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: and I are here, and Mary's the contractor she's hiring 239 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: out for Summer's electricians. We're all working together to finish 240 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: the job, and and and the things are done well 241 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: and done right, you know, we can all sort of 242 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: go home, um and feel and feel pleased, you know, 243 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: and feel like, uh, no one was getting in each 244 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: other's way. We all have worked together in this kind 245 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: of odd little team that we have going on. Um, 246 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: and that's I mean, And that's the thing, you know, 247 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: it's like means the same, you know, it's a sheer 248 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: pursuit to just like putting together a newspaper for a 249 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: week to week was um that you know, sometimes you 250 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: get you know, a little bit like someone's a little 251 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: later deadline, someone's not going as fast as they could 252 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: be with the plumbing, or have put a pipe in 253 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: the wrong place and slows us down. Um. Uh, So 254 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: it was, you know, and it's just a matter of 255 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: kind of um, figuring out the mistakes, writing, writing what's 256 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: been wrong, and uh, getting on with it. So at 257 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: one point you write, the work I was doing didn't 258 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: make me less of a woman, but it felt like 259 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: that in a profound and surprising way. So I was 260 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: wondering if you could talk about how carpentry shape your 261 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: sense of being a thirty year old woman, and whether 262 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: you think of carpentry as gendered work anymore. Sure, I, um, 263 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, I was really I was really surprised as 264 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: I as I started to work, you know, you know, 265 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: I'm dressed in sort of paint splatter jeans, and um, 266 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: a couple of different layers are sure. It's a sports brought. 267 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: My hair is tied back, um, you know, and I'm 268 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: wielding framing guns and drills and hammers and stuff all day. 269 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: And I and I found that it really did kind 270 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: of rattle my sense of femininity. I, um, I you know, 271 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: I felt like a boy. I felt like I felt 272 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: like a dude. Um and um and it was surprised 273 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: like that. It was again, it was sort of this 274 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: this you know, you're you're I don't know at least 275 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: my my my woman nous felt like that some sort 276 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: of core part of what I am and who I am. 277 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: And I was surprised that, um, clothes that I was wearing, 278 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 1: and you know, the tools that I was holding were 279 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: powerful enough to kind of rattle out to kind of 280 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: shake it up a little bit. Um and it and 281 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: it took a little while. It took a little while 282 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: to sort of be able to hold both women and 283 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 1: carpenter in myself at once. Um. It certainly did happen. 284 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: Um And at this point now it feels like a 285 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: very powerful combination. Um Uh. As for whether gendered work, 286 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: I mean, the fact of the matter is it's still 287 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: you know between uh, you know, it's between M male 288 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: dominated UM. And it hasn't changed much UM over the 289 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: last thirty years either. So in terms of whether it's gendered, yes, 290 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: I mean, yes it is. UM. Does that mean it 291 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: should be UM? No? I you know, I think that 292 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: I'm not going to say that every woman should go, 293 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: you know, go to trade school and learn to become 294 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: a carpenter. But I would say that if that's you know, 295 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: if that's where your interests lie, UM, don't be discouraged 296 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: at all, you know, be discouraged by the preconception that 297 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: this is only for men, or that you know, it's 298 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: going to be much harder than any other job. There 299 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,239 Speaker 1: won't be necessarily now. One of the primary characters in 300 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: the book is Nina's boss, Mary, and Mary is this 301 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: veteran carpenter who has to show Nina the ropes because 302 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: when she walks into this job she has no skills whatsoever. 303 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: She you know, obviously knows how to write and put 304 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: together articles and edit and publish things on the internet, 305 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: but she doesn't know how to actually build things. So 306 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: I love this description in the book of the first 307 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: time she meets Mary, in which she writes the carpenter 308 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: stood at the end of the driveway across the street 309 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: from the schoolyard, hand in pockets of khaki cargo pants. 310 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: I'd expected a larger woman, muscled and broad. She was 311 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: a couple inches shorter than me, narrow shouldered, small framed. 312 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: Her rag well sweater had holes in the elbows, and 313 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: when she reached out her hand to shake mind, she 314 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: smiled wide, revealing crooked teeth, the front two with a 315 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: wide gap, the right one stained and snagged at an angle. 316 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: Her dark eyes shined kind. Her shoulders were set forward, 317 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: the not quite hunched posture of a thirteen year old boy, 318 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: confused and hiding her new broadness, or of a woman 319 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: not in the habit of throwing her shoulders back to 320 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: emphasize her breasts. The gray and blue striped wool and 321 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: cap she wore over her short coarse hair, salt and 322 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: pepper lent her an elfish quality, and her voice when 323 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: she greeted me, so you're the journalist, was higher than 324 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: what looked like would come from her face. Mary, she said, 325 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: as we shook hands, nice weather. It seems like one 326 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: of the things that helped you bridge that gap between 327 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: you know, maybe not knowing whether or not you could 328 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: do this job that is so overwhelmingly male and foreign 329 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: as it was for you at the beginning. Was Mary. 330 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: And this relationship between you and Mary reads like a 331 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: how to guide for strong female to female mentorship. And 332 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: so I was just wondering aside from the kinds of 333 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: hands on skills that she taught you, obviously in terms 334 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: of how to use these tools and how to build things, 335 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: how to take a scoche off of a piece of 336 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: plywood would have been some of the important lessons that 337 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: you learned from her in that working relationship you all 338 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: have sustained now for so long. Sure, Um, I feel 339 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: so lucky to have been teamed up with Mary. And 340 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: you know, I think the fact is I had that 341 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: had that initial posting not said women strongly encouraged to 342 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: but I would not have had the courage to throw 343 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: throw my hat in a ring. Um. So I think 344 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: that that had everything to do with it. Um. And 345 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: in terms of you know, what A learned for Mary, 346 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: beyond the all the sort of the skills, She's about 347 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: thirteen years older than I am, so she's she's forty 348 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: nine at this point, And um, I think one of 349 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: the things. Learning by example for Mary is UM. She 350 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: isn't and enormous well of patients. He's one of the 351 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: most patient people that I've ever encountered. And sort of 352 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: seeing her ability to stay with a frustrating task to 353 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: sort of um constead of kind of you know, throwing 354 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: a tool across the room and having some sort of 355 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: swearing fit. You know, she just sort of calmly takes 356 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: a look, sometimes goes out and has a cigarette break, 357 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: push it over, uh, and comes back to it with 358 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 1: a calm head. And I think seeing that UM over 359 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: and over again over these past years has really helped me. 360 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: I don't I'm not I'm not really patient person. I'm 361 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: quick to frustration myself, and that has sort of seeing 362 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: seeing the fact that you can kind of stay calm 363 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: and there are ways to kind of not sort of 364 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: I don't know, uh, lose your mind in moments. UM. 365 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: That's been a huge lesson UM. And it translates beyond 366 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: this sort of the work site where there's so many 367 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: sort of little daily frustrations, but into many other realms, 368 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: into relationships with with people, your family, UM, you know, 369 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: my romantic relationship with my boyfriend, UM, and so it's 370 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,360 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's an extremely powerful Well. I'm interested 371 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: in that whole concept of patients because as someone who 372 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 1: used to work in the publishing and journalism realm and 373 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: had to do all of that pointing and clicking on 374 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: a screen, I'm kind of interested in hearing your ideas 375 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: about appreciating the slow burn of building something and seeing 376 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: it come together as opposed to what I've heard you 377 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: talk about as the quick ego stroke that you get 378 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: from interacting online, especially since you know, Krisen and I 379 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: are on social media all the time with our podcast 380 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: and he as we're making podcasts and tweeting and all 381 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: of that stuff all the time. Yeah, I mean I'd 382 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: like to hear that from a professional perspective, but also 383 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: I mean like a personal one, just in how that 384 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: affects you personally and how you view the slow creation 385 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: process versus the fast ego stroke. Yeah. And I mean, 386 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: don't get me on I'm absolutely like on Facebook and 387 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: tumble and for all the time when I'm not at work, 388 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: like it's it's hard for me to resist it. Um Uh. 389 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 1: I will say, like you know, for example, um say 390 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: building a deck, you know, like you know, we built 391 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: We built a deck um summer that was huge square 392 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: feet massive, bigger, bigger than my apartment um and um. 393 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: And it took it took some weeks of constant, everyday, hard, 394 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: pretty hard labor. Um. And to finish that. I mean, 395 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: the fact that this is something that's gonna be used 396 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: for years. UM, that's gonna that's gonna sort of with luck, 397 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: I hope, Uh, you know, last, last, beyond our lifetime. Um, 398 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: that you can kind of stand stand on and chick 399 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,959 Speaker 1: and jump on and whatever, you know. I mean, it's like, 400 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: that's incredible. It blows my mind. You know that first 401 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: there was of space and now there's an entire structure 402 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: because of our efforts, you know. Um. Um. So there's 403 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: like the satisfactory is more lasting. Um. And with writing here, 404 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: you know, I guess for me, it's harder. It's harder 405 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: to feel. The pride that I feel with writing is 406 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: sort of I'll feel for a flash and that will 407 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: be gone and I'll see all the sentences that I 408 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: could have written better. Um with a carbentree maybe still 409 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: so new. Um. I looked at things we build and 410 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: I just think, oh my gosh, if this is the 411 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: greatest thing you've ever done, you know, um, because it 412 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: still strikes me as a miracle. You know, like first 413 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: there was nothing and now there's a bathroom or um, 414 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: you know, first there was a blank wall and now 415 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 1: there's a beautiful set of bookcases. Um. Uh And so 416 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I don't I don't for a 417 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: second kind of discredit um online lives. I think they're 418 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 1: they're they're they're an important part of our reality right 419 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: now to UM. But I will say I feel I 420 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: feel extremely grateful to have the two in combination. I 421 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: feel like they balance each other out really nicely. So 422 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: which is more satisfying than completing a deck or pleading 423 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: an entire book? Uh? Yeah, gosh, you know it's funny like, UM, 424 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: let me think, Um, it's me a little bit of 425 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: a trick question. Now I know we're writing the book, 426 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: you know. I mean that's it's funny like I I 427 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: I grew up wanting to be a rust you know, 428 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: That's what I wanted to do since since I was 429 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 1: really young. So that does that does have a dream 430 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: come true quality to it. Um. It does sort of 431 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: feel like the surreal and amazing thing. UM. I will say, 432 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: like you know, um, clipping through it. There is this 433 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, I I creamed it some 434 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: of the lines and thinks like, oh god, I should 435 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: not have put that in. Um uh. You know this 436 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: again the spect that I that I mentioned before, I 437 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: think every time I think about that in the times 438 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: I've gone back to take a look at it, like 439 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: it's like, this is so beautiful, it's so amazing. Um uh. 440 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: So again, I don't know. I don't know at the time, 441 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: maybe I'm not sure. Well, do you think that carpentry 442 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: could use more women? I mean, do you think that 443 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 1: they're also perhaps not to get to gender boxy about it, 444 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: but maybe crafts skills at crafts women might bring to 445 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: the table that might be different from craftsmen. You know. Yeah, 446 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: I get sort of nervous again about sort of falling 447 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 1: into sort of gender walking. But I guess one of 448 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: the things that I that I would say is that 449 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: I think that, you know, there is something a little 450 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: chancellor maybe about marrying my approach with clients. Um. I 451 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: think that we're very respectful of the fact that these 452 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: are people's homes that we're working in. We keep the 453 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: work site dreamly tidy um every day kind of at least, 454 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: you know, sort of half an hour at the end 455 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,640 Speaker 1: of the day is always spent making sure the place 456 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: looks great. Uh. And I think a lot of a 457 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: lot of people in the trades, mill our female sort 458 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: work that way. Um. But I think there's cretain, there's 459 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: something maybe a little bit more approachable, certainly for people 460 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: who maybe don't know that much about renovation work to 461 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: begin with. It can be kind of intimating, um, because 462 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: it is a different language, and it is you know, 463 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: your your life will be disrupted for a little while 464 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: if you're getting for example, your kitchen redone, you know, 465 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: and so having people who are going to be able 466 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: to kind of articulate what's happening in a way that's 467 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: kind of you know clear. And again I you colt 468 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: got to the word gentle. I don't know why, um uh, 469 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: as opposed to these you know people, guys, big guys 470 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: who are I don't know, that maybe would be a 471 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: little bit rougher seeming. Um. And I realized I'm sort 472 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: of contradicting what I was saying that, you know, the 473 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: guys that we work with are you know, as I said, respectful, 474 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: And there's you know, there's an intimacy that develops we 475 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: you know, we will we come in to your house 476 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: and stay for a week or two weeks or six weeks, 477 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: and there's you know that we're part of our client's 478 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: lives for a little while. And I think that like 479 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,239 Speaker 1: really honoring that and really sort of I don't know, 480 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: respecting the fact that that we're gonna be there and 481 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 1: we're gonna be disrupting you and and sort of making 482 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 1: that process as smooth and easy as possible. And I 483 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: think there is something maybe again I get nervous sort 484 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: of with those center boxes, but like that maybe a 485 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: little bit something won't a minute about that, um having 486 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: that kind of I don't know, respect for that aspect 487 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: of the work. Well, I'm interested to hear both sort 488 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: of in your professional day to day life but also 489 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: in your personal creative carpentry life. Do you have a 490 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: favorite tool? Do you have a favorite project that you 491 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: want you love to work on and is there something 492 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: that you cannot wait to build next? Sure? Um? So 493 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: favorite tool? Um to two sort of favorites. One is 494 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: a very simple pride bar sort of like a smaller 495 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: and a crowbar. Um for its very um sort of 496 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: simple ability to translate human strength. UM. We use it 497 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: all the time for a variety of things, and uh, 498 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: there's just something I don't know, so elegant um in 499 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: its simplicity, and it's it's sort of understated power, which 500 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: really has appealed to me for a long time. I 501 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: also love the Japanese saw, which is UM. Western saws 502 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: UM cut on the push. The Japanese saw cuts on 503 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: the pole, which means that UM. The curse, which is 504 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: the sort of the space that the sub blade makes, 505 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: the little line that the saw blade makes is more precise, 506 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: it's a little thinner UM. And I just happened to 507 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: love using that using that saw. UM. As for UM 508 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: projects that I particularly love, you know, our for our 509 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: building bookshelves is not the most exciting work, but I 510 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: always love doing them UM. I guess maybe for obvious seasons. UM. 511 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: It kind of it kind of elevates hours and standing 512 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: and sort of cutting straight boards, UM, knowing that that's 513 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: what they'll become. I also quite loved tiling UM. Maybe 514 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: it was that was because that was the first thing 515 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: I learned to do with Mary, but that's always been 516 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: kind of appealing to me as well. And and honestly, 517 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: you know, it's I think, first this wall that I 518 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: ever built, UM sort of blew my mind. I mean 519 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: it's like in your whole lets. You know, you're surrounded 520 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: by walls every room that you're in UM and I 521 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: and I had never thought about sort of what goes 522 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: into it. Again, it was the sort of thing I 523 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: took for granted. And so the process of building the 524 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: first wall, UM, which is this total, total mind moggeling, 525 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: mind blowing experience, and that hasn't gone away. I still 526 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: kind of enjoyed, you know, wall streaming, walls and dry 527 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: wall and the rest. And as for a project, I'm 528 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: looking forward to doing. UM. One of the things I've 529 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: been sort of doing recently, I've been teaching myself how 530 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: to make tables UM and that's been UM that that 531 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: process has proved really powerful as well. And and I'm 532 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: always afraid of sounding like the total fruitcake like UM. 533 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: I think there's something sacred about coming around a table, 534 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: you know, gathering around a table for a meal. And 535 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: was surprised by by UM. I didn't know that the 536 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: sort of sanctity of the process of making something that 537 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: people will gather around UM for years. And my tables 538 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: are crude um not particularly well at this point, um, 539 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: but of doing them, and I'm sort of for the next. Uh. 540 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: I've just started a project for a friend of actually 541 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: kind of a ladd being present half. Also she's about 542 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: to have a baby, um and making her two end 543 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: table to flank her her couch. And so I'm really 544 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: excited for that both that it's for a friend, it's 545 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: going to be some pretty special would so I'm really 546 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: excited to dig into that. Well for any listeners and 547 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: especially female listeners who now are itching to become like 548 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:59,719 Speaker 1: you and learn how to make tables or put walls up, 549 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: or make these incredible depths and all these kinds of things, 550 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 1: how would you how would you recommend to get started? Because, 551 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: like you said, there's a whole new language that goes 552 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: along with this, all these tools. There's that intimidation factor. 553 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: What's one simple if there is a simple way to start, 554 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: you know, I think partly I think a bunch of 555 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: cities are starting to have organizations that, um sort of 556 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: help women get involved in the trade. So I would say, 557 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: look to see if your city has um any of 558 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: these organizations and reach out to them. UM, if you 559 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: want to sort of have to sort of a little 560 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: bit of a case before taking you know, creating your 561 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: job and taking the full plunge. UM. A lot of 562 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: adult ication places have classes that you can take about 563 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: furniture milk, furniture making, um, sort of basic carpentry classes. UM. 564 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: And that's something able to sort of get your suns 565 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: some tools, get some get a feel for some wood, uh, 566 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: to if if the work does appeal to you. Um. 567 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: And so I think that's that's the art. And I 568 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: think if you are more more serious about it, um, 569 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: try to get in touch with some contractors male or female, 570 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: and and ask, you know, ask them, do you know 571 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: of any women in the trades who might be looking 572 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: or who I could buy up a coffee for and 573 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: and and to pick their brain about how they got started, 574 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: how they might recommend I get started. Um, that would 575 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: be you know, I mean for someone really sort of 576 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: looking to make that step, I think that would be 577 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: a really good first first step to uh to take 578 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: to sort of get involved. I didn't want to ask 579 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: you one quick question. Uh, does your stomach turn whenever 580 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: you see those pink hammers and lad these tools sets 581 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: that are all in like pink and purples, it's a 582 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 1: great question. I'm sort of a two minds. Partly, yes, 583 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,239 Speaker 1: I think in in other ways, I think like, all right, 584 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: that makes it more palatable for a woman to pick 585 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: up a hammer. That's great, you know, like that's that's 586 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 1: I'm all for that. I think there is this process 587 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,719 Speaker 1: of demystification that like, oh, these things are unknowable, like 588 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: this is the realm of knowledge. I'll never grasp. Oh, 589 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: I couldn't you know, I couldn't you know, hammer and nail. 590 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: But in fact it's it's not. It's all grass, grass, graspable. 591 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: Um uh. And so I thought, if it's a pink 592 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: hammer motivates a woman to pick to pick one up, 593 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: I mean I support that, you know, kind of reluctantly 594 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,280 Speaker 1: and a bit like well, Nina, thank you so much 595 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,479 Speaker 1: for taking the time to talk to us, and thanks 596 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 1: so much for writing Hammerhead. Again. I really really enjoyed 597 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: the book and I am going to probably reread it 598 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: partially as a how to guy for me attempting to, 599 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: i don't know, build a table or something. So probably 600 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 1: maybe probably not with a pink handled hammer, but we'll see, 601 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:51,240 Speaker 1: we'll see, who knows. I really it was great talking 602 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: with you guys. Well again, thank you so much to 603 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: Nina McLaughlin for coming on the show and talking to 604 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: us today. We learned a ton and you know, I 605 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: kind of want to go build a table or a 606 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: you know, a passion project deck. Now, let's go build 607 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: a deck, Carol, I will build a podcast. You can 608 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: do that, Yeah, surely it might be very low to 609 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: the ground and very small. Yeah. Um. And so if 610 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: you want to find out more about Nina and what 611 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: she's working on, make sure you go over to Nina 612 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: McGlocklin dot com. You can also find her blog at 613 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: carpon Tricks dot tumbler dot com, and make sure you 614 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 1: tweet her about how much you loved what she had 615 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,720 Speaker 1: to say on the podcast. At the underscore carpent Tricks 616 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: and now, I'm curious to know whether there are any 617 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,720 Speaker 1: carpon tricks, says is the plural of carpent tricks. Carpon 618 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: tricks is Caroline, carpentrasses, carpentrases, carpentristes, okay, or we can 619 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: just call them carpenters. Get there any other carpenters listening. 620 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: We're curious to hear from you and what your experience 621 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: has been and what your favorite thing to build is. 622 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,359 Speaker 1: And also are you a fan of the Japanese sock 623 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: because those sound pretty rare. Email us mom Stuff at 624 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com and you can also tweet 625 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff podcast and messages on Facebook. And 626 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: we've got a couple of messages to share with you 627 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break. So, 628 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: speaking of women in construction, I've got a letter here 629 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: from Katie who writes, I was so excited to see 630 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: you to a podcast about women in construction, as this 631 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: topic is very near and dear to my heart being 632 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: an engineer, I had to write in and tell you 633 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 1: that you nailed so many things that are difficult about 634 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: working in the industry. I live in a midside city 635 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: and I cannot buy the everyday safety equipment I need 636 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: in my size locally. Gloves are typically only sold in 637 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: men's size medium and above unless I want flowery gardening gloves. 638 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: Safety vest size small medium could fit two of me 639 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: and them. And forget finding any women's steel toad books 640 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 1: that meet the requirement of my job and the bathrooms. 641 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 1: Prior to work starting on a project, I will scout 642 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: out the area to see what restrooms are available, and 643 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: this information has passed down to any other woman working 644 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: on the project, like Grandma's prize apple pie recipe. It's 645 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: a logistical problem that men don't even have to give 646 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: a second thought too, but that's so crucial for women. 647 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: I always bring hand sanitizer and extra toilet paper, as 648 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: often porta potties run out of or aren't supplied with 649 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: these necessities. And God help you if you're on your 650 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 1: period changing a tamp on in a hot, stinky, dirty 651 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: porta potty without being able to wash your hands, no 652 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: thank you. Luckily, the company I work for is great 653 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: and I haven't been faced with any of the harassment 654 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: from coworkers or even the subcontractors we work with. However, 655 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: as a woman, you are definitely treated differently from my 656 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 1: experience dealing with subcontractors being a slender woman in my 657 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 1: early thirties, I either get treated like their daughter, the 658 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: hot girl next door, or ignored. While this can have 659 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 1: its benefits, men will often volunteer to help me carry 660 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: some wise or complete difficult tasks, it stinks to feel 661 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: like I'm not being taken as seriously as my male counterparts, 662 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: and on those occasions where I'm out in the field 663 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: with a male coworker. It's awkward when a contractor ignores 664 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: me and only addresses my male colleague, especially if I'm 665 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: in the more senior position and she goes on to say. 666 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: One thing that I've been thinking about since you discussed 667 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: the differences in dress codes for male and female lawyers 668 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: is a difficulty in walking the fine line between casual 669 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: and overdressed in my office. Often when I work with 670 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: will where jeans or khakis with a plaid dress or 671 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: technical fabric shirts and sneakers. However, that's similar plaid dress 672 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: or technical shirt that I've found for women generally look 673 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: cutesye and not business like. So my choice is jeans 674 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 1: and khakis with a plain T shirt or dress pants 675 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:49,880 Speaker 1: with a button up, or a dressy shirt and heels 676 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: or nice flats. One is perceived as more casual than 677 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 1: my coworkers, and one is more dressy. I haven't decided 678 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: what to do about that yet, but it's something I 679 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 1: think about often. Anyway, just a few thoughts I had 680 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: while listening to the podcast. Keep up the great work, 681 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,720 Speaker 1: and you keep up the great work to Katie. Okay, 682 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 1: so I have a letter here from Hannah about our 683 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 1: Divorced Women episode, she says, I grew up in a 684 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 1: small North Georgia town where my family went to a 685 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: mid sized, relatively progressive Baptist church. I say relatively progressive 686 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: because women were allowed in the church leadership, which is 687 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,839 Speaker 1: often prohibited or at least looked down upon in many 688 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 1: Southern Baptist churches and in other churches of more conservative denominations. 689 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: But my family's church wasn't like that. There were several 690 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: women deacons, including my mother, and there was even a 691 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,760 Speaker 1: woman ordained as a minister who worked as the church's 692 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: co pastor for a few years. That being said, however, 693 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: after my parents divorced, a number of the church members 694 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: essentially shunned my mother and even went so far as 695 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,800 Speaker 1: to tell me, at the time a nine year old child, 696 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: how horrible and shameful my mother was for wanting a divorce. 697 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 1: I won't go into too many details, but the divorce 698 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: was pretty amicable and my parents did and still do 699 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: continue to get along well. But this reaction from the 700 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 1: church members, most of whom I had known my entire 701 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 1: life and considered very kind, loving people, shocked and offended me. Eventually, 702 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: leading after I got much older and more contemplative to 703 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: me deciding to distance myself from the church altogether. I 704 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: don't want to suggest at all churches a religious communities 705 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: act this way. This is just one story, and I 706 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: know of many other churches in which this doesn't happen, 707 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 1: and divorced women are accepted and welcomed without shame. But 708 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: I wanted to share my perspective. As always, thank you 709 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,240 Speaker 1: for the wonderful podcast, and thank you for writing in Hannah, 710 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,240 Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom stuff 711 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: at how stuff Work dot com is our email address 712 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media as 713 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, including 714 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: this one with links to learn more about Mina McLaughlin 715 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 1: and hammer Head. Head on over to stuff Mom Never 716 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: Told You dot com for more on this and thousands 717 00:40:54,400 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: of other topics. Isn't how Stuff Works dot com s