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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, along

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Speaker 1: with my co host of Bonnie Quinn. Every business day

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Speaker 1: we bring you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts,

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Speaker 1: along with essential market moving news. Kind of Bloomberg Markets

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Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com. I want to point out

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Speaker 1: that we'll be speaking with the Labor Secretary Eugene Scalia

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Speaker 1: in just a few minutes Alex Steele and Guy Johnson

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Speaker 1: with that interview on the current state of the American

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Speaker 1: economic recovery. Also jobs, of course, not such a pretty picture.

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Speaker 1: Weekly jobless claims coming in today. They did fall, but

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Speaker 1: still coming in at one million, four hundred and eighty

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Speaker 1: thousand initial jobless claims. That was down from one point

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Speaker 1: five four million, but not as big of a drop

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Speaker 1: as economists had estimated. PAULI ensured unappoyment rate falling as well,

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Speaker 1: but to thirteen point four percent. I mean, it's a massive,

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Speaker 1: massive number of no doubt. The Labor Secretary will suggest

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Speaker 1: that it would have been even more massive were it

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Speaker 1: not for everything that a government did. But it's it's

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Speaker 1: very hard to look at those numbers and not feel

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Speaker 1: like there's a big problem out there. There really is.

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Speaker 1: And I think that one of our guests earlier mentioned

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Speaker 1: that it was, you know, fourteen weeks into this and

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Speaker 1: we're still having these types of number. Right, let's send

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Speaker 1: it over now to Bloomer TV and Alex Steel and

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Speaker 1: Guy Johnson with the Labor Secretary. You help black employment, well, Uh,

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Speaker 1: the economy before the coronavirus hit, of course was uh

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Speaker 1: the single best economy that African Americans had experienced in

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Speaker 1: in in in in this country. Uh, it was an

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Speaker 1: economy that was great for Americans all around, with unemployment

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Speaker 1: that hit a UM fifty year low. Job creation was

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Speaker 1: more than three times what had been predicted when the

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Speaker 1: president came in, but unemployment for African Americans was particularly low,

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Speaker 1: and that was one of the really great achievements of

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Speaker 1: that economy. So I think looking for word, I was

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Speaker 1: gonna say, Mr Secretary, undoubtedly correct, but no one expects

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Speaker 1: us to get back to where we were. So when

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Speaker 1: you take a look at say, wages, uh, for for

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Speaker 1: black employees are lower than whites, any unemployment raised continually

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Speaker 1: higher for those in the community. You need to fix that.

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Speaker 1: So how do you do that? UM, well, you know, Alex,

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Speaker 1: UH going forward the same policies that delivered the record

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Speaker 1: low unemployment that we had until the virus came, or

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Speaker 1: going to the policies that matter going forward. That's UH

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Speaker 1: lightning the tax burden on American business, it's eliminating unnecessary

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Speaker 1: regulatory burdens that read led to a great job creation

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Speaker 1: and as you know, it also led to UH wage

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Speaker 1: increases that were greater for people in lower income brackets.

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Speaker 1: So those are all very good things for African Americans.

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Speaker 1: I think a couple other things going forward. At one

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Speaker 1: is the President's proclamation on Monday UH suspe bending UH

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Speaker 1: immigrant workers until the end of the year to provide

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Speaker 1: a buffer to give American workers a greater opportunity to

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Speaker 1: get back into the workforce. I think that's going to

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Speaker 1: help African American workers, it's going to help the economy

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Speaker 1: more broadly. And then we have reforms that we're going

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Speaker 1: to be looking to make to some of those immigrant

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Speaker 1: worker programs too, that I think are going to deliver

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Speaker 1: benefits across the board. The other thing I've mentioned is

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Speaker 1: the U s m c A goes into effect next week.

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Speaker 1: And that was one of the President's great achievements earlier

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Speaker 1: this year, bipartisan legislation that could create as many as

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Speaker 1: five hundred thousand new manufacturing jobs in this country, and

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Speaker 1: that's going to be a boon again for all working Americans.

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Speaker 1: It's the secondary Guy Johnson in London, why does keeping

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Speaker 1: smart people out of the United States help the US economy? Well, Uh,

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Speaker 1: the change that we've made is to give smarter Amricans

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Speaker 1: a better opportunity to get jobs in an economy where

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Speaker 1: we've made We've made progress over the last few weeks. Uh,

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Speaker 1: with two and a half million jobs add in May.

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Speaker 1: We know we've had a lot of jobs since then,

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Speaker 1: but we've still got too many Americans out of work.

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Speaker 1: We want to give them, uh an opportunity to get

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Speaker 1: back to work. Uh. If in fact, a business can't

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Speaker 1: find an American worker and there's a critical need to

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Speaker 1: be filled, there will be an exceptions process under the

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Speaker 1: President's order. But guy, long term, UH, we're going to

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Speaker 1: reform this program precisely so it does a better job

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Speaker 1: of bringing super talented workers into this country rather than

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Speaker 1: low wage workers who are competing with Americans and undercutting

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Speaker 1: American workers. Wages. We pivot and talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about today's claims data. Um, the indications are from from

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Speaker 1: this this high frequency data. The what was thing in

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Speaker 1: the US economy is a stabilization at a relatively high

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Speaker 1: level of unemployments. UM. Do you think we're starting to

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Speaker 1: see a more realistic kind of view of what is

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Speaker 1: happening emerging from the data, because up until now we've

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Speaker 1: seen a very strong bounce back. Do you think we're

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Speaker 1: now starting to see evidence that that bounce back is

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Speaker 1: slowing down? I don't read this data that way, guy,

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Speaker 1: although I think it's a fair question. Because the initial

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Speaker 1: claims number was a bit higher than had been projected.

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Speaker 1: The number that really caught my attention was the continuing claims,

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Speaker 1: that is, the people that are remaining on unemployment, and

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Speaker 1: that dropped by about seven sixty seven thousand, a big drop.

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Speaker 1: But there was also a correction for the prior week.

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Speaker 1: You put them together, and we've got a million fewer

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Speaker 1: people on unemployment UH today than we thought we had

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Speaker 1: a week ago. That's that's progress. And the big report,

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Speaker 1: as you know, will be a week from today when

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Speaker 1: we put out our June jobs report. And UM, I'm

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Speaker 1: hopeful that that will show really significant progress along the

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Speaker 1: lines of what we we saw in May. I think

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Speaker 1: that will be a more reliable indicator than you know.

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Speaker 1: Initial claims are just claims file. They're not necessarily claims

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Speaker 1: that are going to be accepted by the state. So

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Speaker 1: even if we do get a better number for jobs Friday,

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Speaker 1: it's still going to be bad. It will be a

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Speaker 1: less bad kind of number. Um And at the same time,

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Speaker 1: at the end of this month, that additional assistance in

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Speaker 1: the unemployment checks from the Cares Act wears off. Anecdotally, Secretary,

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Speaker 1: I have friends who literally will not be able to

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Speaker 1: live without that extra money. What are you going to

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Speaker 1: do for them? Well, Ax, you're right. The six benefit

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Speaker 1: that was in the Cares Act, which was a really

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Speaker 1: important benefit that the President and Congress provided when the

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Speaker 1: economy was being closed down in March, that expires at

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Speaker 1: the end of July. UM. But we're gonna be a

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Speaker 1: very different situation at the end of July. Let's see

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Speaker 1: what the report shows us next week. But we know

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Speaker 1: the economy is reopening. We're we're not in a situation

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Speaker 1: anymore where government authorities are saying, essentially you can't go

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Speaker 1: to work. So I don't think that six benefit is

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Speaker 1: the right policy in an opening economy. Uh, come August.

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Speaker 1: So I wonder if there's a happy medium, because specifically

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the services industry, because if you're a

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Speaker 1: waiter and you're going back and you work on tips,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to be getting back to where you

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Speaker 1: were pre COVID, So your tips might go from a

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars a day of fifty dollars a day, so

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Speaker 1: you're losing that money. Would you think about an income

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Speaker 1: subsidy for example, like France is doing. President at Cross

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Speaker 1: has something very similar today, working with unions to help

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Speaker 1: subsidize work or pay for it to compensate from the

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Speaker 1: loss they're missing. Can you do that well? Uh. Something

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Speaker 1: that we already have is what we call a short

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Speaker 1: time compensation. The idea is that a workforce can be

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Speaker 1: brought back, but maybe not all work full time. They've

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Speaker 1: they're brought back on a part time basis, and they

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Speaker 1: get a blend of pay and unemployment benefits. That's that's

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Speaker 1: being done some now, and I think that's that's a

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Speaker 1: concept to look look at. Obviously, we have UH continuing

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Speaker 1: state unemployment benefits are available, and we'll take a look

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Speaker 1: at whether there are any federal approaches that remain necessary.

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Speaker 1: But you have that state benefit, you have the opportunity

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Speaker 1: for a short time compensation. And we're focused most of

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Speaker 1: all on growing the economy again, on creating those jobs.

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Speaker 1: The President did such an extraordinary job of that up

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Speaker 1: until the virus came. We have no reason to think

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Speaker 1: that the economic fundamentals of UH the country are substantially

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Speaker 1: different when they were just a few months ago. So

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Speaker 1: I'm most focused now on reinforcing the policies that lead

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Speaker 1: to record job creation and getting people back to work,

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Speaker 1: rather than UM focusing so intently on the unemployment system itself.

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Speaker 1: It's a secretary. There are large parts of the United

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Speaker 1: States where the hospitalization count is now rising and rising dramatically.

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Speaker 1: We're saying it in Texas, We're seeing it's in Florida,

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Speaker 1: We're seeing it in California. Did these places reopened too quickly?

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Speaker 1: Is there too much emphasis being placed on reopening the

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Speaker 1: economy at this point at the expense potentially of public health? Well, guy,

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's quite right to say that there

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Speaker 1: are large parts of the country that are seeing these

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Speaker 1: flare ups, but we are we are seeing some flare

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Speaker 1: ups in parts of large states and it certainly has

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Speaker 1: to be and is being taken seriously. No, we did

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Speaker 1: not reopen too early. We knew that as we opened, UH,

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Speaker 1: that there would be some increased cases. We know far

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Speaker 1: better now how to deal with this virus than we

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Speaker 1: did two three months ago, and we have a much

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Speaker 1: greater capability to address it in terms of the tests

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Speaker 1: that are available, ventilator capacity and all of that. So

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Speaker 1: these are these flare ups are serious matters to take

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Speaker 1: a look at, uh, the viruses out there. Americans do

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Speaker 1: need to continue to exercise discipline so that we can

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Speaker 1: stay open um. But you look across the country as

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Speaker 1: a whole. The reopening is going well, it's going safely,

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Speaker 1: but we will continue to focus on these flare ups

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Speaker 1: as they occur. Mr. Secretary, It's it's really hard to

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Speaker 1: agree with you on that though. When you have Texas, California,

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Speaker 1: and Florida, I mean Texas suspended all elective surgeries. They're

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Speaker 1: looking at reaching hospital big capacity in certain areas, and

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Speaker 1: Houston is a huge medical center and they're having some

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Speaker 1: serious problems. Uh. The government seems to no longer have

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Speaker 1: control over shutdowns or not. If I'm living in Houston,

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Speaker 1: I'm probably not leaving my house and I'm not going shopping.

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Speaker 1: So how does that then trickle through to the labor market.

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Speaker 1: You're going to have more layoffs potentially, or second round

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Speaker 1: layoffs just because people just want to stay home themselves,

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Speaker 1: because these are huge states with a huge rising cases. Well, Alex,

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Speaker 1: I gotta disagree with you. I think you're these are

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Speaker 1: ups are serious. I think you're exaggerating the current situation.

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Speaker 1: That local authorities are well aware of it, they're looking

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Speaker 1: to address it. We here uh in the administration are

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Speaker 1: in contact with them and looking for ways to help.

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Speaker 1: But again, you look across the country as a whole. Uh,

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Speaker 1: the reopening has gone very successfully, and uh what's happening

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Speaker 1: in these specific locations is a reminder of the importance

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Speaker 1: of discipline, of being careful about the virus that it's

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Speaker 1: still out there. It's not a judgment on the reopening

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Speaker 1: as a whole. To pay it's away from what we've

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Speaker 1: just been talking about. Mr Secretary UM, Let's talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about investing and how public money, public pension

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Speaker 1: money via funds should be invested. You have written that

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Speaker 1: the profit motive is ultimately the final arbiter of whether

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Speaker 1: or not decisions should be made versus one investment, sorry,

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Speaker 1: versus another investment. Why is impact investing wrong? Why is

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Speaker 1: E s G investing wrong? Particularly at a time when

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Speaker 1: we see such need for changes in the way we

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Speaker 1: approach the climates and changes in the way we approach society.

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Speaker 1: We started this conversation talking about black lives matter. Well, guys,

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Speaker 1: you're referring to a rule that the Labor Department put

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Speaker 1: out earlier this week regarding so called E s G

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Speaker 1: investing in in the context of of a private pension

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Speaker 1: plans here in the U s and uh Uh Obviously

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Speaker 1: people uh like the opportunity to, as I put it

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Speaker 1: in an op ed, I wrote, to do good while

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Speaker 1: also doing well financially. But some questions certainly have been

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Speaker 1: raised about some of the E s G rating systems

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Speaker 1: out there. How reliable thorough are they really? You see

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Speaker 1: systems that uh, one rating is high for a company,

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Speaker 1: another rating system rates it low. There have been questions

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Speaker 1: raised by the SEC about how some of these funds

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Speaker 1: are are being promoted. That the key under our law

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Speaker 1: for pension plans is simply that pension plans are to

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Speaker 1: be managed with one goal. That's maximizing Americans retirement savings.

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Speaker 1: That's a really, really good social objective. It shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: compromised by fiduciaries to those retirees who are pursuing political

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Speaker 1: ends that cost those retirees money. That's what our proposed

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Speaker 1: rule addresses. Okay, interesting in the light of what the

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Speaker 1: business round table is kind of moving towards. But we

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Speaker 1: have to leave the conversation that Mrs Secretary, thank you

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Speaker 1: very much. Indeed, Eugene Scalia, the US Labor Secretary. This

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Speaker 1: that was US Labor Secretary Eugene Scalia speaking with Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: anchors Alex Steel and Guy Johnson on a wide reaching

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Speaker 1: conversation from all things from the pandemic and the impact

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Speaker 1: on the economy to the current state of the jobs market. Again,

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Speaker 1: we had jobs claims today came in a little bit

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Speaker 1: higher than expected, so really weighing in on the employment

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Speaker 1: situation and the economic uh situation within the US. Right now,

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Speaker 1: let's pivot right now and talk to our good friend

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Speaker 1: Barry Ridholtz. He's found of Ridholts Wealth Management, Bloomberg opinion

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Speaker 1: columnists and host of Masters of Business, Barry, what was

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Speaker 1: your takeaway from the discussion with Secretary Scalia? Kind of

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Speaker 1: shocking to hear the Department of Labor secretary doesn't seem

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Speaker 1: to know what the word fiduciary means. I kind of

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Speaker 1: had to rewind that and do a double take. His

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Speaker 1: his take on e s g IS is malignantly malinformed.

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Speaker 1: The data on this shows that this has performed at

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Speaker 1: least as well as other actively managed accounts, especially over

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Speaker 1: the past couple of years. And if people want to

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Speaker 1: express their views through their portfolios, that's up to the

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Speaker 1: individual investor, the fiduciary, the advisor who is working with

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Speaker 1: a client their job just to put the client's best

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Speaker 1: interest first. It's kind of shocked the way he spits

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Speaker 1: that word out as if it was acid in his mouth.

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Speaker 1: You know, the studies have shown that having non fiduciaries

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Speaker 1: advise on four oh one case and other retirement accounts

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Speaker 1: coasted seventeen billion dollars a year. If he's really concerned

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Speaker 1: about maximizing investors retirement savings, enforce the fiduciary rule and

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Speaker 1: make everybody who advises on that that account have to

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Speaker 1: put the investors first. Best interest first, it's a really

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Speaker 1: simple solution. I was shocked by the double talk I

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Speaker 1: just heard. I mean, it's so interesting because obviously the

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Speaker 1: Labor Secretary can propose whatever he wants, right Barry, But

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Speaker 1: this is something that would be pretty detrimental. I think

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Speaker 1: to a lot of workers out there at a time

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Speaker 1: when there is, you know, a skyrocketing unempoyment rate and

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Speaker 1: initiate all those kids. They just are not coming down

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Speaker 1: fast enough, and so much uncertainty out there. You know.

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Speaker 1: I don't to let my politics get in the way

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Speaker 1: of of responding to the Labor Secretary. But I have

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Speaker 1: a full dashboard of COVID nineteen data and I look

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Speaker 1: at this every day, along with all the other data

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Speaker 1: I run through. And I don't know if he's looking

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Speaker 1: at the data, but but what we're seeing is an

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Speaker 1: increase um in testing and an even larger increase in

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Speaker 1: infection rate, and the whole Sun Belt is doing poorly.

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Speaker 1: Look at rt dot live shows you the the are

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Speaker 1: one measures of state by state. You have thirty three

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Speaker 1: states that are still showing a greater contagion and the

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Speaker 1: numbers going in the wrong directions. The early States, New York,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts. Their numbers are coming down. The

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Speaker 1: early infection states from international travel, mostly from Europe. But

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Speaker 1: now we're seeing the states that reopened. Looks the facts

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Speaker 1: are a lot of these states. It's ignored the White

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Speaker 1: House guidelines, ignored the CDC guidelines. It's hard to look

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Speaker 1: at the date and say this is going great. The

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Speaker 1: reason the market got she lacked earlier this week, at

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Speaker 1: least in some narratives tellings, is because, Jeeves, we're not

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Speaker 1: even waiting for second waves. The first wave hasn't run

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Speaker 1: its course, and the numbers are heading in the wrong direction. Florida, California, Texas.

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Speaker 1: That those are both red, blue and purple states. The

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Speaker 1: virus doesn't care about your politics. It's going to infect

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Speaker 1: people when given an opportunity, and we're continuing to give

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Speaker 1: COVID nineteen an opportunity to spread. We we are not

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Speaker 1: doing this well compared to other countries. It's interesting. So Barry,

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Speaker 1: given again, that's shlacking you mentioned earlier in this week.

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Speaker 1: I agree that in large part due to some of

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Speaker 1: the virus news. It seems like, you know, I'm just

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Speaker 1: wondering how we play this again. I mean, is it

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Speaker 1: just steady as she goes and recognize that this is

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Speaker 1: probably gonna be a longer pull than maybe we had

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Speaker 1: initially hoped for. So we've kind of gone full circle.

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Speaker 1: The initial fear was this is a multi year process

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Speaker 1: to get a treatment, get a vaccine developed her immunity

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Speaker 1: where we're knowing near her community, yet you need well

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Speaker 1: over people to either have a vaccine or exposure to

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Speaker 1: to get that. And you know, we we kinda got

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Speaker 1: very enthusiastic. There is lots and lots of positive news

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Speaker 1: coming out in terms of treatment and vaccine testing and

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Speaker 1: the amount of treatment we're doing. Those have been moving

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Speaker 1: in the right direction, but they are also being confronted

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Speaker 1: by a lot of um let's call it lazy and

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Speaker 1: unfocused behavior that can lead to the spread of this

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Speaker 1: That The other factor that I think is important from

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Speaker 1: a market perspective, not from how rapidly we're spreading the disease,

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Speaker 1: is is simply at a certain point, markets and investors

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Speaker 1: lose their ability to get shocked and and and once

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Speaker 1: you cross a World War two number of American deaths,

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Speaker 1: you know a lot of the horrific, stunning shock of

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Speaker 1: that you become somewhat in order to it and so hey,

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Speaker 1: the good news is the death rate is going down,

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Speaker 1: partly because a lot of the spread of COVID is

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Speaker 1: taking place amongst the younger and younger. The average age

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Speaker 1: of infection is going lower. Um, but that's still dangerous.

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Speaker 1: And you're remember you're always on a two to three

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Speaker 1: week lag from testing to infection to mortality. Well, and

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Speaker 1: it's going down for now. But we're hearing today that

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Speaker 1: you know, Texas is overwhelmed and even the governor is

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Speaker 1: coming out saying you're sweeping problem Houston. Yeah, exactly. And

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously with people on ventilator is you know,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to to forecast it, but it would

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Speaker 1: seem more likely than not that there will be more

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Speaker 1: deaths in Texas. Barry. You know, our market participants looking

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Speaker 1: to the next presidential cycle, and are they assuming that

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Speaker 1: no matter who it is, does it doesn't really matter

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Speaker 1: because the federal reserve is in there and there's plenty

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Speaker 1: of back stopping of this market and it won't change

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Speaker 1: no matter who the next president is. That's always an

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Speaker 1: interesting question. You know. The traditional wisdom has has been

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Speaker 1: for a long time that markets like a divided government,

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Speaker 1: one party has the Congress, the other party has the

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Speaker 1: the White House, and everybody has to reach across the

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Speaker 1: aisle to um to work together. UM. I think that

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Speaker 1: that's sort of a glib overstatement, and we do all

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Speaker 1: have a tendency to put too much emphasis on what

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Speaker 1: the White House or where Congress has done. For the

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Speaker 1: most part, markets are going to do what they're going

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Speaker 1: to do. The economy is going to do what it's

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Speaker 1: going to do. There is very little correlation between between

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Speaker 1: the two. It certainly feels that way on a day

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Speaker 1: to day basis. I haven't seen any indication that that

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Speaker 1: the market is um is discounting one side or the

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Speaker 1: other winning. Whenever I read that, it tends to be

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Speaker 1: filled with people's personal bias and they take what the

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Speaker 1: market is doing and somehow crafted into a narrative. UM.

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Speaker 1: I had a little disagreement with my friend Jim Cramer

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Speaker 1: on on Twitter yesterday who said the two percent fall

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Speaker 1: in markets had to do with Biden's uh increase in

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Speaker 1: in ratings. It's like, wait, this market is up while

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Speaker 1: the incumbent was in free fall. Why are you picking

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Speaker 1: on Wednesday as your indicator. Isn't that a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a personal bias there, Jim, who I was just kidding. Barry,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much. It's always great to talk to

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Speaker 1: Barrier at alls, who doesn't pull us punches and always

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Speaker 1: has the smart take on what's going on in the

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Speaker 1: mark get and then political life and generally in investing.

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Speaker 1: You don't forget to listen to his Master's in Business podcast.

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Speaker 1: Just another brilliant episode week over week over week. So

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Speaker 1: thank you for that very well. It is time to

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Speaker 1: check in with the Bloomberg Opinion. First, I want to

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Speaker 1: reiterate the Supreme Court decision that came out today bolstering

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Speaker 1: the government's ability to quickly deport people who enter the

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Speaker 1: country illegally. You know, it's again siding with the Trump

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Speaker 1: administration on that refusal to give asylum seekers abroad right

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Speaker 1: to make their case to a federal judge. So Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court rules against court access for asylum seekers. It's a

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Speaker 1: separate story but slightly related in that it goes to

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Speaker 1: the tendency of Resident Trump to keep people out of

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Speaker 1: the USA. He signed an order on Monday temporarily halting

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Speaker 1: access to several employment based visas, and that affects hundreds

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Speaker 1: of thousands of people seeking to work in the United States.

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Speaker 1: These H one, B and H war visas used by

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Speaker 1: tech workers primarily, let's bring in someone who's written a

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Speaker 1: great column, honest, take him of Bloomberg opinion. Okay, why

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Speaker 1: is this generally not a good idea for the United

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Speaker 1: States and its productivity? So I see where Trump's trying

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Speaker 1: to do what he's saying that by restricting this immigration

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Speaker 1: within a free up jobs for Americans. But we're usually

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Speaker 1: risking one of the most important strategic assets that the

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Speaker 1: US has, which is the Silicon Valley innovation machine, which

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Speaker 1: is the end of the world and it's where the

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Speaker 1: most ambitious, best, brightest entrepreneurs and engineers around the world

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Speaker 1: want to start their companies, which is here. And we're

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Speaker 1: kind of risking this braking that we have um just needlessly.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at the history of the Valley

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Speaker 1: and American tech companies um, Bond, Cappell have this great

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Speaker 1: slide where six of the most highly valued US tech

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Speaker 1: companies were founded by either first generation second generation immigrants

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Speaker 1: were talking Google, Video, Qualcom, even Apple was second generation

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Speaker 1: with deep jobs. So we're easily risking this most important

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Speaker 1: thing and already companies and countries like Canada. The CEO

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Speaker 1: Shopify is going out there saying, oh, come to Canada.

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Speaker 1: That So I just I just argue that it's just

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Speaker 1: very shortsighted to risk this thing that we have that's

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Speaker 1: so great UM by limiting these visas. So Tay, I know,

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Speaker 1: at one point, you know, these visas were so so

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Speaker 1: important for the technology companies because quite frankly, America wasn't

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Speaker 1: producing enough engineers, enough computer scientists. Is that still the case?

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Speaker 1: I think, yes, that's the case. When you talk to

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Speaker 1: these companies, are we don't have enough engineers? Um shopifies

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Speaker 1: us all the time that their biggest constraint is they're

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Speaker 1: not finding enough talented computer engineers. So that's still a

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Speaker 1: huge constraint. And when you see this avalanche of criticism

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Speaker 1: in the last couple of days we're talking that's on Facebook,

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Speaker 1: Micro everyone's coming out saying they're up at arms. Even

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Speaker 1: startups are saying this is it's going to hurt our

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Speaker 1: ability recruit talent, it's going to hurt the economiccovery. One

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Speaker 1: of the other visas is uh. One of the the other

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Speaker 1: visa suspensions stops internal transfers inside these companies where they

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Speaker 1: can't move managers around, So it just throws a wrench

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Speaker 1: into the operation of these countries and also puts a

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Speaker 1: massive amount uncertainty when we're trying to recruit the best

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Speaker 1: and brightest people in the world. I mean, it seems

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Speaker 1: to be almost you know, a reflex on the part

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Speaker 1: of President Trump. As soon as things are not going

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Speaker 1: particularly well at the White House, he does something to

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Speaker 1: block access to this country. Is there an argument for

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Speaker 1: that going too far at some point? And for these

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Speaker 1: companies like Google and Facebook to just continue to set

431
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: up operations abroad. I mean, their tax headquarters are usually

432
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: in other places anyway. I mean I agree with that,

433
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 1: like if we can't bring people here, why all these

434
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: companies are going to start international offices and try to

435
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: recruit people to those international offers. But I think the

436
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: bigger problem is, um it might attract all these immigrants

437
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 1: to go elsewhere, like go to Europe, go to China,

438
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: or even stay where they are, instead of coming to

439
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 1: American companies and generating innovation that we need. And I mean,

440
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: this is not a zero sume game. This is not like,

441
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: oh we don't have this, We're not gonna It just

442
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: takes up an American person's job if we miss out

443
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: on the next Google or in video. These are the

444
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of jobs and economic growth that we're

445
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: not going to get. I mean, it's it's not a

446
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: zero sum game. We just we can miss out on

447
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: huge innovation, economic growth and job creation that we just

448
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: will totally miss out on. So tell you about their

449
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: thirty seconds. Are there other industries besides technology they're going

450
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: to be impacted by this move? Yes? Um, I think

451
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: a lot of wort tram workers. There's restrictions like camp

452
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: counselors or pairs. So this is not just tech. This

453
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: is across the board. All these work visas are getting

454
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: restricted for the rest of the year, and then green

455
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: cards the band for green cards is extended to to

456
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: the rest of the year too, So this is just

457
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 1: a vast kind of visas suspension for an immigration altogether. Well,

458
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: and definitely some of the offices are closed these days anyway,

459
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 1: both in the US and in other countries, so you know,

460
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: you could argue that it's just disruption. You know, it

461
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that all these people that are seeking you

462
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 1: won't eventually get these visas, but for the moment they

463
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: certainly won't. And we don't know if that will be reversed,

464
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: so we don't know what the situation will be in

465
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: coming months. It's certainly fascinating. And you know, I noticed

466
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 1: the other day on Twitter the Shopify CEO tweeting out, look,

467
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: this might have happened. So then come come to Canada.

468
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: I've seen that. Yeah, you know, open for business. Yeah exactly. Hey,

469
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: thank you. Always great to dig into these orders in

470
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: a lot more detail, because there's usually a little more

471
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: there than meets the eye. Initially that has taken him

472
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Opinion. We do like to check in on

473
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Opinion at least once a day. Paul, would you

474
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 1: go to another country of a tech company? Were to

475
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: ask you, well, I think if you're an immigrant, you're

476
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: looking for the best opportunity, and now historically that's been

477
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: in the US. But if you know, I think you're

478
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: absolutely gonna be flexible there. Yeah, I mean, if you're

479
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: moving anyway, why not move where you're wanted? Right, Well,

480
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: what we've seen from this pandemic is the how it's

481
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: really impacted pretty much every industry, every company out there,

482
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: in terms of how the executive team and the managements

483
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: kind of think about their strategies, their daily workflows. A

484
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: lot of companies and a lot of management teams have

485
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: had to completely rethink how they do their business and

486
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: to get a sense of kind of what they're thinking

487
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: about what's on the top of their to do list.

488
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: We welcome chrish Nan Ramano Jump. He's a president and

489
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: head of Business and Technology Services at Tata Consulting Services. Christna,

490
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us from Mumbai. UM, give

491
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: us a sense of kind of boy, I just can't

492
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: imagine the conversations you're having with your clients. But what

493
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: are the two or three things you're asking your clients,

494
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,479
Speaker 1: are suggesting to your clients that they think about as

495
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: they navigate a new world order impacted by this pandemic.

496
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: Good morning, Paul. Thank you for having me on the show.

497
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: It's suppaser to be here, so I would probably talk

498
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: about three or four things, Paul. The first and foremost, UM,

499
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: we've been telling our clients about how it is not

500
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: it is extremely important for transformation to be looked at

501
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: not as a one time moon shot, but it's something

502
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: that needs to be navigated on an ongoing basis. This

503
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: is a phenomenon we call as perfectual transformation gone off

504
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: the base. You can take one moon shot at transformation

505
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: and then live happily a roster. The technology and so

506
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: many other factors are changing, ever so often enterprises need

507
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: to have the ability to navigate multiple transformations, smaller transformations perpetually.

508
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: That's a key capability. That's the first and perhaps the

509
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: most important advice I give to my clients. The second

510
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: one I talk about is about location independent workforces. There

511
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: is this concept called agile in our line of business.

512
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: It's extremely um effective and there there was a trend

513
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: that said the teams had to be co located. But

514
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: over the last five years, Teachings as a company has

515
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: been a pioneer in terms of advocating how location independence

516
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: is a key if agile has to realize its potential.

517
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: And I think the pandemic has only um clearly demonstrated.

518
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: How precient, however, U forecast was around that. And the

519
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: third thing that I would probably say is about being

520
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: boderless collaborative. I think it's extremely clear the the winners

521
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: of the future are going to be enterprises that can

522
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: collaborate very well among themselves, internally within the company as

523
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: also with the partners. So there are many many technologies

524
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: that enable this, being data centric, leveraging, cloud and so

525
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: on and so forth. UM that in term the selves

526
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: in so many other benefits, but I'd probably stoppered these

527
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: three things. Perfectual transformation, location, independent workforce and collaborative boderless mindset.

528
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: Those are the three things I would pick as a

529
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: top three advice pieces of advice that I give to

530
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: my clients. Christen, and give us an idea of how

531
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: you managed to relocate four hundred and fifty thousand employees

532
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: to working remotely. I mean, that's a phenomenal exercise. Yes,

533
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: thank you. It still looks so surreal to me. Um.

534
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: If you ask me around mid to late March when

535
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: this pandemic hit us Vaney whether I'd be three months

536
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: later or whether I'd be sitting comfortably in my home

537
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: and almost back to normal in terms of working from

538
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: a remote location, I'd have said the odds are completely

539
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: against it. So I was extremely nervous, and so were

540
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: all of my colleagues in the senior management team there

541
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: at Tires. But um Thesis is very well known for

542
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: its um you know, I never say the attitude and

543
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: we love the challenge. It did require a heroic effort

544
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: from many of our employees. But the fact is that

545
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: everyone knew that all of us had to come together

546
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: to make it happen. And as a company, we put

547
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: customer centricity as the top of our priority list. So

548
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: unless we very very quickly became effective in terms of

549
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: working from homes, many of the critical and essential services

550
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: for our customers would suffer in a big way. So

551
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: once that pressure is on us, it's extremely important for

552
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: us to make it happen. Also, the government here, the

553
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: local authorities, everybody cooperated as also our people demonstrate an

554
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: excellent sense of responsibility and work ethics. So it required

555
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: a huge effort. But a combination of support from the

556
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: government and the huge demonstration of work epic and customer

557
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: commitment from our employees that's what made it happen. But

558
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: to say that today we are upwards of person of

559
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: our employees working from home is indeed remarkable. And all

560
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: of this happened in a matter of what four to

561
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: five weeks, So Christian about thirty seconds. Love to get

562
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: your sense of kind of how things are in India

563
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: right now. We're starting to see some resurgence in cases

564
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: here in the US. How is the virus trending in

565
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: India right now. In India still the curve is going up.

566
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: But the encouraging news is that the test positivity rate

567
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: is either flat are actually coming down. That is an

568
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: important thing. That which means two things, which means we

569
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: are testing enough um and the fact that the test

570
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: positivity rate is not going up probably means that it

571
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: is not out of control. Of course, in a country

572
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: like India at one point three billion people, the numbers

573
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: are going to be staggering, of course, but I think

574
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: so far, so good, even though that's not to say

575
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: what will happen tomorrow? Call as I'm sure they can imagine. Well,

576
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: these days we never know what to expect. Christian, thank

577
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: you for joining us today. Fascinating company and the fascinating

578
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: industry to be in right now. Christian Roman Nujam, President

579
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: of Business and Technology Services Atata Consulting Services, coming to

580
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 1: us from Mumbai there and he obviously had to relocate

581
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: you know, his staff Poul or the company's staff board

582
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: and fift. They're also dealing with everyone else's staff working

583
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 1: remotely as well, so it really boggles the mind. He's

584
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,439
Speaker 1: been offering serious advice to C. E. O s during

585
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: the pandemic, including you know, perpetual transformation. A lot of

586
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: people get stuck during a time like this because there's

587
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: so many logistical concerns, but really, now is the time

588
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 1: to be transforming and to continue to move forward. Yeah,

589
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: technology is a Christman mentioned is just a key part

590
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: of that trying to help people remain productive during this

591
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: remote time. Thanks for listening to Bloomberg Markets podcast. You

592
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: can subscribe and listen to interviews at Apple Podcasts or

593
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: whatever a podcast platform you prefer. I'm Bonnie Quinn. I'm

594
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Bonnie Quinn, and I'm Paul Sweeney. I'm

595
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 1: on Twitter at pt Sweeney. Before the podcast, you can

596
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio