1
00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,240
Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Naughty Night Show.

2
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,520
Speaker 1: We've got a very special holiday addition, Labor Day edition

3
00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,200
Speaker 1: today with my friend author Dylan Howard, who has got

4
00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:27,920
Speaker 1: out the best selling book Epstein, Dead Men, Tell No Tales. Hello, Dylan,

5
00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:30,560
Speaker 1: Robert's good to be with you again. Fantastic to have

6
00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,200
Speaker 1: you back. So you've got another hit books on your hands.

7
00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,000
Speaker 1: Let's jump right in because there's so much to discuss

8
00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,920
Speaker 1: about this. What time is it? It is? Well together now, Dylan,

9
00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,440
Speaker 1: tea time, tea time, Thank you very much. So, Dylan,

10
00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,800
Speaker 1: before we jump into this, give us a little background

11
00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,199
Speaker 1: on why this book appealed to you. Why did you

12
00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:49,960
Speaker 1: have to do all this work and get this book

13
00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,120
Speaker 1: out well. I had been covering the Jeffrey Epstein story

14
00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,880
Speaker 1: for a number of years along with my colleagues Melissa

15
00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,920
Speaker 1: Cronin and James Robertson for the very As outlets that

16
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,360
Speaker 1: we wrote for, and we had this abundance of information,

17
00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:10,160
Speaker 1: court documents, police files that we had accumulated over five

18
00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,479
Speaker 1: or six years of reporting. Now you have to understand

19
00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,240
Speaker 1: that the reason for Jeffrey Epstein's arrest at Teterboro Airport

20
00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:23,000
Speaker 1: in July last year was the reinvigorated reporting about what

21
00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:28,440
Speaker 1: took place. We were obviously acutely in a position to

22
00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,560
Speaker 1: be able to deliver on the untold story of Epstein,

23
00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,480
Speaker 1: and immediately decided to write this book. And it stands

24
00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:41,840
Speaker 1: as the definitive account about how Jeffrey Epstein rose from

25
00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,680
Speaker 1: nothing in blue collar Brooklyn to where he where he was.

26
00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,800
Speaker 1: So you guys were sort of lucky then that you

27
00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,160
Speaker 1: had already done all the work. So if anybody wanted

28
00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,800
Speaker 1: to start an epic like this, it would take years

29
00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,360
Speaker 1: and years of research. But you had been doing that

30
00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,080
Speaker 1: because you were all working reporters for many different outlets,

31
00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,120
Speaker 1: so you had got it. Sounds to me like a

32
00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,120
Speaker 1: treasure trove of information about Epstein, and the time was

33
00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:06,960
Speaker 1: right to put it all together in the book. Is

34
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,200
Speaker 1: that correct? Well, that's exactly right. I mean to give

35
00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,600
Speaker 1: you a literal sense as to what happened. I had

36
00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,560
Speaker 1: all my files shipped out to my house, and Melissa

37
00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,480
Speaker 1: flew in from California, and James and myself and her

38
00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,560
Speaker 1: had a retreat here and we worked through all the

39
00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,799
Speaker 1: documents and pieced it together, and the book came together

40
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,560
Speaker 1: very quickly and very sharply, right, really timely too, so

41
00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,400
Speaker 1: people don't really know who this man is. It's a

42
00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,200
Speaker 1: name that has been floated around a lot in the media.

43
00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,120
Speaker 1: Some people are paying a lot of attention. We're a

44
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,679
Speaker 1: celebrity podcast, so we know I think the name, but

45
00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:48,960
Speaker 1: explained to us who was Jeffrey Epstein. He was a

46
00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,240
Speaker 1: deeply complex individual. He was somebody who grew up in,

47
00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 1: as I said earlier, blue collar Brooklyn. His parents were

48
00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,680
Speaker 1: local council workers is I think his mother was a teacher,

49
00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,880
Speaker 1: and he ultimately ended up going to the Dalton School

50
00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,480
Speaker 1: where he was a teacher, and there are stories about

51
00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,400
Speaker 1: his weirdness and his odd behavior. Believe it or not.

52
00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,800
Speaker 1: His boss at the Dalton School was the father of

53
00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:21,480
Speaker 1: the current Attorney General, William Barr. Now. He was booted

54
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:26,040
Speaker 1: out of the Dalton School under circumstances that have never

55
00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,520
Speaker 1: really been revealed, and he moved to bear Stone Sterns.

56
00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,880
Speaker 1: An incident took place there where there were some nefarious

57
00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,839
Speaker 1: financial dealings, and he was fired from there. He went

58
00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,080
Speaker 1: to Towers Financial, which, before Bernie made Off, was the

59
00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:48,680
Speaker 1: largest Ponzi scheme in the history of America. The firm's founder,

60
00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,520
Speaker 1: Stephen Hoffenberg, went to jail for some twenty years for

61
00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,640
Speaker 1: his role in the Ponzi scheme. He has alleged that

62
00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:02,120
Speaker 1: Epstein also was involved in the the Ponzi scheme but

63
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,040
Speaker 1: avoided any criminal prosecution. And he believes there is a

64
00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 1: reason that we will get to as to why Epstein

65
00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,320
Speaker 1: was not charged. But we know him primarily today, at

66
00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:19,239
Speaker 1: least people listening to this show because of the sex allegations,

67
00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,800
Speaker 1: and I think they're more than allegations. These were proven

68
00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,440
Speaker 1: to be the case. That's what we hear about today.

69
00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:30,160
Speaker 1: So the financial aspect, Dylan, has been slightly underlooked, degree correct.

70
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,360
Speaker 1: The question of how Jeffrey Epstein amassed his fortune has

71
00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,279
Speaker 1: never really been explained, and we go a long way

72
00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:42,520
Speaker 1: to explaining it. As conspiratorial as this sounds, Jeffrey Epstein

73
00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:48,719
Speaker 1: ingratiated himself within the uppermost circles of the elite. His

74
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,360
Speaker 1: Black Book, as has been described, has many many names,

75
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,760
Speaker 1: very high caliber names. Give us a few of them, Dylan,

76
00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,440
Speaker 1: we know about Prince Andrew in Britain, his names in

77
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,159
Speaker 1: that book. Who else would we find in that book? Well,

78
00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,360
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton was in that book. We know we spent

79
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:09,120
Speaker 1: a lot of time with Bill Clinton. Really It really

80
00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,400
Speaker 1: was a who's who models, I think and people. I

81
00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,720
Speaker 1: think Naomi Campbell was in there, lots of big names

82
00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:16,800
Speaker 1: that we've heard. Do you know I actually met him

83
00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,160
Speaker 1: once still, and I was working from Naomi Campbell and

84
00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,360
Speaker 1: Tyra Banks and they were doing Victoria's Secrets, and he

85
00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,359
Speaker 1: was one of those guys who was always backstage, and

86
00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,719
Speaker 1: you really shouldn't have been backstage if you weren't working

87
00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,800
Speaker 1: on the show, or if you weren't fabulously rich. His

88
00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,719
Speaker 1: money seems to have allowed him to not only get access,

89
00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,719
Speaker 1: but to get away with this for so long. Do

90
00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,520
Speaker 1: you think that's right? Yes, So the reality was Leslie Wexner,

91
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,680
Speaker 1: who is the founder of Victoria's Secret, stepped out earlier

92
00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:49,200
Speaker 1: this year in the wake of the Epstein allegations he was.

93
00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,080
Speaker 1: Epstein was Wexner's right hand man and controlled all of

94
00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,960
Speaker 1: his fortune. Um so he was one individual as a

95
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,200
Speaker 1: retail tycoon who was listed in the book. Don't forget.

96
00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:06,440
Speaker 1: There was Donald Trump, the billionaire hedge funder Glenn Juban,

97
00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:11,240
Speaker 1: former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, the ex Harvard president

98
00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,640
Speaker 1: Larry Summers, former New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson, former Main

99
00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,599
Speaker 1: Senator George Mitchell and many others. Now it's critical to

100
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,160
Speaker 1: note that all of these men have denied any wrongdoing

101
00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,000
Speaker 1: with regards to their involvement with Epstein. But the reality

102
00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,719
Speaker 1: was he surrounded himself with these people, and what he

103
00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:36,760
Speaker 1: would do was gather intelligence and sell it to the

104
00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:42,279
Speaker 1: highest bidder. Often in most scenarios that was Israeli intelligence,

105
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,440
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabian intelligence, or Russian intelli. So he was that

106
00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,720
Speaker 1: high up and mixing with people that really our decision makers, princes,

107
00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:56,239
Speaker 1: and so the information he had was really national security worthy.

108
00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,880
Speaker 1: And you found out in your book that he was

109
00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,479
Speaker 1: almost dare I say spy? He was a spy. There

110
00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,000
Speaker 1: is no doubt about that. Let me put this into context.

111
00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,840
Speaker 1: Gallaine Maxwell, he's number two, the right hand woman who

112
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,640
Speaker 1: currently sits in a Brooklyn jail facing six counts on

113
00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:20,920
Speaker 1: a six county diptment. She was the heiress to the

114
00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:26,360
Speaker 1: Maxwell fortune. Her father, Robert Maxwell, was the owner of

115
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,679
Speaker 1: the Daily Mirror newspaper in London and once also owned

116
00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,920
Speaker 1: the New York Daily News. He is a known Israeli spy.

117
00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,560
Speaker 1: He was believed to have been killed off the back

118
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:41,880
Speaker 1: of his yacht. He disappeared Lady giz Lane in the

119
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:48,040
Speaker 1: Virgin Islands. Before that, according to Ari Ben Mshani, who

120
00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:53,040
Speaker 1: is a whistleblowing Israeli former spy who was Robert Maxwell's

121
00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,200
Speaker 1: spy handler, there was a meeting in the late nineteen

122
00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:01,600
Speaker 1: eighties in which the business Maxwell's busyness of spine was

123
00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:07,960
Speaker 1: turned over to Epstein and his daughter Gillane. Wow. Wow,

124
00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,200
Speaker 1: this is like a James Bond novel, except James Bond

125
00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,880
Speaker 1: in this novel is awfully, awfully sinister. How did Gillayan?

126
00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,520
Speaker 1: We've heard her name a lot lately and she's in prison.

127
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,840
Speaker 1: Now you pointed out, how did she get involved with

128
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:24,120
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein? What's the connection there? She was completely besotted

129
00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,960
Speaker 1: by him. She wanted to be in a relationship with him,

130
00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:28,840
Speaker 1: She was in love with him. She was in love

131
00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,920
Speaker 1: with him. They had a two year sexual relationship and

132
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:37,559
Speaker 1: according to the indictment, they also participated in sexual activities

133
00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,480
Speaker 1: with underage victims as well. Together. She essentially was someone

134
00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:48,120
Speaker 1: whom couldn't say no to the ultimate power that was

135
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,960
Speaker 1: this conniving and compelling individual who had everyone wrapped around

136
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,319
Speaker 1: his fingers. Was charming Dyland? Was there some charm because

137
00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,880
Speaker 1: Obviously the money is power, but there must have been

138
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,480
Speaker 1: something about him too. Was there a being silly thinking

139
00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,960
Speaker 1: this man could be child? I mean he was a

140
00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:12,240
Speaker 1: silver fox, he had he was a handsome man. He looked,

141
00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:17,200
Speaker 1: looked the part, played the part, and had the wealth too. Uh,

142
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,440
Speaker 1: mixing of those high net worth circles. I mean he

143
00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,880
Speaker 1: had his own island, which has been called Ugy Island

144
00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,360
Speaker 1: in the US, Virgin Island. What sort of money are

145
00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,520
Speaker 1: we talking like? What was his value? What it was worth?

146
00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,840
Speaker 1: A six hundred million, six hundred million, that's still an

147
00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,120
Speaker 1: enormous amount of money. Six hundred thousand, sure paycheck. I wish,

148
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,920
Speaker 1: I wish. So he was worth about just they have

149
00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,559
Speaker 1: half a billion, A lot of money for a guy

150
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,520
Speaker 1: who didn't have a job. It's a peculiar question. Where

151
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:51,600
Speaker 1: was that money coming from? Foreign intelligence? So I'm one

152
00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 1: of the few people that has seen inside Jeffrey Epstein's

153
00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:01,840
Speaker 1: Manhattan Residents, which is the most expensive residents in Manhattan.

154
00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,520
Speaker 1: Now I haven't been inside. I want to clarify I've

155
00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,960
Speaker 1: seen inside. I've seen. Is it sinister or does it

156
00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,520
Speaker 1: look like a beautiful town? Has? It's gordy? It's horrible.

157
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,280
Speaker 1: I mean, there's this the notorious photo of the painting

158
00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,880
Speaker 1: of Bill Clinton wearing the monica Lewinski drew. Stress. Now,

159
00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,120
Speaker 1: that wasn't in a private vault. That was in the

160
00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,040
Speaker 1: one of the main rooms. So if you was being

161
00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:25,920
Speaker 1: shown off. So if you went to the house, you'd

162
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:30,320
Speaker 1: walk in and you see a beautiful, slightly strange picture

163
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,120
Speaker 1: of Bill Clinton. But it wasn't a cheap one. This

164
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,199
Speaker 1: was he he commissioned an artist to do this painting,

165
00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,280
Speaker 1: this oil painting, and I think to therese stuffed animals

166
00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,760
Speaker 1: in there. I think he had liar there was the

167
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:46,840
Speaker 1: most importantly, every room had a camera. That camera would

168
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:52,559
Speaker 1: feedback to a central system. That central system was next

169
00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:58,200
Speaker 1: door to a study that had xerox size photocopying machines.

170
00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:02,000
Speaker 1: So what would what would take place, according to my sources,

171
00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,600
Speaker 1: was that Epstein would bring people over and invite them

172
00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,680
Speaker 1: over for a party. He would have of age women

173
00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,400
Speaker 1: mingle with the men, and then he would seed two

174
00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,040
Speaker 1: underage women or three underage women into the group and

175
00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,880
Speaker 1: they were told who their target was. So you were

176
00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,760
Speaker 1: told tonight, you have to go after target X, and

177
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,280
Speaker 1: they did, and they did, and then and then they

178
00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,000
Speaker 1: would get then he would get the video and compromising

179
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:34,680
Speaker 1: information on that individual and either blackmail them or trade

180
00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,880
Speaker 1: or try and turn them into a source for foreign intelligence.

181
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,680
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of very nervous, very powerful men,

182
00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,160
Speaker 1: I would say, not women, but men in the world

183
00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:51,240
Speaker 1: that should be terrified today. Yes, now, I didn't believe that.

184
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,800
Speaker 1: I thought that with the arrest of Galain Maxwell, that

185
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:59,079
Speaker 1: they had effectively achieved their highest target. And indeed, the

186
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,679
Speaker 1: government had said that there would be no superseding indictment

187
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,000
Speaker 1: on Galain Maxwell, and they didn't plan to file charges

188
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: against anyone else. What I can tell you is that's

189
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:14,679
Speaker 1: not the case. The investigation remains very active. The FBI

190
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:19,040
Speaker 1: has this as is a priority one case. They filed

191
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,320
Speaker 1: recent court documents indicating that this story, or certainly this case,

192
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,520
Speaker 1: is not over. And I also learned from a source

193
00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:31,320
Speaker 1: that somebody whom I believed, through assumption because of the

194
00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,000
Speaker 1: way in which the case was built against Galaine Maxwell,

195
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,920
Speaker 1: had participated in exchange for immunity or a non prosecution agreement.

196
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:44,720
Speaker 1: The reality was that this individual has not, and she's

197
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,320
Speaker 1: now living in a country that where there is no

198
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:53,199
Speaker 1: extradition treating. Dyln't talk us through his suicide, his death

199
00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,200
Speaker 1: and why that is so controversial. So that made a

200
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,720
Speaker 1: lot of news here. What happened there? What do you

201
00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,640
Speaker 1: think went? Well? Everybody loves a conspiracy theory. Who doesn't.

202
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,240
Speaker 1: It was very convenient for people to think that Jeffrey

203
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,760
Speaker 1: Epstein would have been murdered because of the secrets that

204
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,240
Speaker 1: he held. Probably not just convenient, I mean, it's sort

205
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,600
Speaker 1: of maybe a logical conclusion if this goes as high

206
00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,040
Speaker 1: up as you say, and I totally believe you're reporting here.

207
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,880
Speaker 1: People wanted him gone, and when he was locked up

208
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,640
Speaker 1: in that jail cell with nothing to do for twenty

209
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,120
Speaker 1: four hours a day, that might have been an opportunity.

210
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,360
Speaker 1: That's where the conspiracy theory sort of comes from. Where

211
00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,760
Speaker 1: are you in this? Do I think that Jeffrey Epstein

212
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:42,920
Speaker 1: ah was strangled and murdered? No? Do I believe that

213
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,280
Speaker 1: he was given the means, motive, and the message to

214
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,920
Speaker 1: commit suicide. Absolutely, the simple reality of the fact. For

215
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,000
Speaker 1: anyone who covers law and justice, they know that if

216
00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,640
Speaker 1: someone attempts suicide, which Epstein had two weeks earlier, you

217
00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,280
Speaker 1: are not returned to regular prison population. So soon thereafter,

218
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,680
Speaker 1: two weeks later, he was returned to regular population. He

219
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:12,040
Speaker 1: was given regular clothing. So that was an opportunity to

220
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:16,000
Speaker 1: strangle yourself. Dlaane Maxwell, for example, now is wearing paper

221
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:21,160
Speaker 1: as her clothing because she's she's the most watched prisoner

222
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,800
Speaker 1: in the world at the moment. Really he wasn't. How

223
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,240
Speaker 1: come he was? Well, I mean that begs. There are

224
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,680
Speaker 1: some serious flaws from the d o J, which runs

225
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:35,720
Speaker 1: the correctional arm of the law enforcement branch, about why

226
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,239
Speaker 1: they allowed Jeffrey Epstein back in a regular prison population,

227
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,160
Speaker 1: why they allowed him to have electrical appliances with cords,

228
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,800
Speaker 1: and why they allowed him to have prescription meds in

229
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,240
Speaker 1: which potentially overdose. So what your theory is is that

230
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,720
Speaker 1: he was given the opportunity to do this and he

231
00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,280
Speaker 1: realized his life was never going to be the same.

232
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 1: He wasn't returning to the most expensive residents in New York.

233
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,240
Speaker 1: It was over, so he took that way out. Well,

234
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,840
Speaker 1: he's only He's only legal defense, and this is the

235
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,520
Speaker 1: only legal defense that Gillay Maxwell can use is the

236
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,240
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight plea deal

237
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,960
Speaker 1: in Florida that Jeffrey Epstein struck a single count. I

238
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:20,880
Speaker 1: think it was for prostitution, not underage sex. At such

239
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,680
Speaker 1: a low conviction, how did he His only defense was

240
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,920
Speaker 1: to suggest that double jeopardy existed, that he could not

241
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,360
Speaker 1: be prosecuted again for crimes in which the government had

242
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,840
Speaker 1: the opportunity to prosecute him earlier. And as part of

243
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,600
Speaker 1: that deal, he struck an agreement with the government that's

244
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:45,280
Speaker 1: so called in quotation marks others would not be also

245
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,040
Speaker 1: charged with relation to the sex traffickings. Very unusual. Listen

246
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,560
Speaker 1: to it. It is they weren't named. So Gillain Maxwell

247
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,720
Speaker 1: lived a life in America believing that she was protected

248
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,320
Speaker 1: by that very agreement at a time when she could

249
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,560
Speaker 1: have fled the country under her French citizenship, used her

250
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,920
Speaker 1: twenty million dollars to leave, but she didn't because she

251
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,640
Speaker 1: never believed she was going to be untouchable. She wasn't

252
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,200
Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier that the d o J that Mr

253
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,680
Speaker 1: Barr's father at one point employed Jeffrey Epstein. There's got

254
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,600
Speaker 1: to be some sort of speculation about that, or is

255
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,000
Speaker 1: that just a coincidence. I mean, I think it is

256
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:32,680
Speaker 1: a coincidence, but certainly one indication about William Barr's connection

257
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,640
Speaker 1: to this case raises some serious dare I say it

258
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 1: nefarious connections. The father's name was Joseph and in fact

259
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 1: had authored a book which was fantasy, sexual sexual fantasy

260
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:58,720
Speaker 1: that involved young women. Um and to that extent it

261
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 1: raises just he had another twisted element to this particular story.

262
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,120
Speaker 1: It's a wild story and you do amazing, amazing job

263
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,680
Speaker 1: in its want to say the book the book is Epstein.

264
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,160
Speaker 1: Dead Men Tell No Tales. What was the most surprising thing?

265
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,400
Speaker 1: You've been a journalist, a top journalist for decades, Styland,

266
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:23,040
Speaker 1: You've seen a lot. What surprised you about this story? Well?

267
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,840
Speaker 1: I think it is what hasn't happened yet that that

268
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 1: I think he's going to be the most compelling part

269
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,160
Speaker 1: of this story. Gallaine Maxwell, she represents not the number

270
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,640
Speaker 1: one target for the Southern District of New York, which

271
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,680
Speaker 1: is the governing body that he's prosecuting this. She has

272
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:43,280
Speaker 1: three options. She can admit guilt and they will probably

273
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 1: reduce her sentence and drop the perjury charges. Two, she

274
00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,200
Speaker 1: could choose to fight this. She should not. The Southern

275
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,000
Speaker 1: District of New York doesn't bring a case against anyone

276
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,840
Speaker 1: unless it is unimpeachable, So before they prosecute they know

277
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,719
Speaker 1: going to win. Got it? So she's up the proverbial

278
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,600
Speaker 1: creek without a paddle. What's the third option? Would be

279
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,879
Speaker 1: to sing and sing like a canary. But I'm told

280
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,840
Speaker 1: via sources close to her that she won't do that.

281
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,119
Speaker 1: She doesn't want to talk about particularly Prince Andrew, and

282
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,320
Speaker 1: she doesn't want to talk about Bill Clinton. Now, the

283
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:24,160
Speaker 1: reality of the situation is you don't get a choice.

284
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,400
Speaker 1: If you tell on one, you must tell on all.

285
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,919
Speaker 1: But the bigger question is this was such a complex

286
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:38,520
Speaker 1: intelligence operation for the purposes of blackmailing powerful individuals and

287
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,080
Speaker 1: politicians in the United States and abroad, and it went

288
00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:46,159
Speaker 1: on for four decades. So it does not discriminate along

289
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 1: political lines. It's not an ideological argument that you can say,

290
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,119
Speaker 1: let's use this as a campaign tool in the current

291
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,760
Speaker 1: election to dig up the Democrats or dig up the Republicans.

292
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,720
Speaker 1: For four decades, these people who were the world's most

293
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,120
Speaker 1: worst sexual predators were allowed to roam free for decades

294
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,000
Speaker 1: on American soil. Who knew what, when they knew it,

295
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,600
Speaker 1: how they knew it, and why they did nothing about

296
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,560
Speaker 1: it is going to be the most revealing part of

297
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,120
Speaker 1: this case. If it goes to trial, be careful if

298
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,720
Speaker 1: you look down the rabbit hole, because you might find

299
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,160
Speaker 1: something far more sinister. I can't see the government wanting

300
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,879
Speaker 1: to do that. I can't see William Barr wanting to

301
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,480
Speaker 1: do that. So I think you'll find that there would

302
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,400
Speaker 1: be enormous pressure being placed on Gawaine Maxwell right now

303
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,680
Speaker 1: behind bars to take a deal that means that means

304
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,760
Speaker 1: she likely will never see daylight again. What do you predict?

305
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,159
Speaker 1: The final question, Dylan, what's going to happen next? What

306
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,160
Speaker 1: should we keep our eyes on? What's going to she'll

307
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,680
Speaker 1: take a plea deal. She's facing thirty years jail, she'll

308
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 1: probably get fifteen to twenty UM. She's in her late fifties,

309
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,040
Speaker 1: so that means that she's not likely to see daylight

310
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:05,560
Speaker 1: until she's seventy to eighty m. I simply can't see

311
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 1: any charges being dropped against her, and I can't see

312
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,880
Speaker 1: any defense attorney suggesting to her that it's worth going

313
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,320
Speaker 1: to court to try and get this tossed out. But

314
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 1: I do raise one pure scuttle but suggest and it's

315
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 1: a what if scenario. We know that she was married,

316
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,160
Speaker 1: but we don't know who she was married to. She's

317
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,480
Speaker 1: refused to identify the identity of the man to pre

318
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,920
Speaker 1: trial services, which looks after the chaperoning of someone from

319
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 1: here to jail to court. What if, and I place

320
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,720
Speaker 1: a significant emphasis on IV Maxwell seek secret husband is

321
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 1: none other than Jeffrey Epstein himself. What would that mean?

322
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 1: It means that she has a get out of jail

323
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,600
Speaker 1: free card because the notion of spousal privilege is not

324
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 1: terminated by death. So every piece of evidence that the

325
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 1: government has, emails, handwritten notes, phone records, even witness testimony

326
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 1: to some extent, could be struck out of court because

327
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:20,119
Speaker 1: she's his wife. Because she's his wife, Dylan Howard, you

328
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 1: are the best in the business. This is an ugly,

329
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 1: ugly story. Nobody has told it better or with more

330
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 1: compassion than you. Once again, the best selling book is

331
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 1: Epstein Dead Men Tell No Tales. Hey, thank you for listening.

332
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 1: Don't forget to subscribe on I Heart Radio, app, Apple

333
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you listen. Leave us a review, and

334
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: remember altogether, Dylan, if you're going to be naughty, you've

335
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: got to be a wife. Take care of everybody. Thank you.

336
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 1: It's not even nice with b