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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. In nineteen seventy two,

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Speaker 1: when my father, who had just gotten out of the

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Speaker 1: Marine Corps, relocated our family to Georgia from Louisiana, I

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Speaker 1: was a kid. He took me for a drive in Atlanta, Georgia,

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Speaker 1: and you know how it is when you're little, The

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Speaker 1: world that you're surrounded by. At that age seems so big.

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Speaker 1: You can go to your grandparents' house, you can think

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Speaker 1: about it. Back then, things seem so much bigger than

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Speaker 1: they they actually were, particularly when you get to revisit

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Speaker 1: those locations as an adult. But you know, back then,

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two, I was in the front seat

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Speaker 1: of his forward pickup truck and moved driving down the road.

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Speaker 1: He said, I'm going to take you somewhere and show

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Speaker 1: you where the meanest men in America live. Now, this

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Speaker 1: is in Atlanta, Georgia, And I had no idea. I

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Speaker 1: didn't even know anything about Atlanta. We just moved there.

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Speaker 1: So we're riding down the road and suddenly I looked

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Speaker 1: through the windshield. At his direction, he said, look straight ahead,

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Speaker 1: and all I could see was this big gray mass

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Speaker 1: of buildings surrounded by fencing, and as we grew closer

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Speaker 1: and closer, those buildings filled up the entire windshield. You

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Speaker 1: couldn't see anything but gray mass of gray stone. And

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Speaker 1: what I was looking at was actually the Federal penitentiary

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Speaker 1: that is located in Atlanta, Georgia, and it looked scary,

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Speaker 1: and as I came to find out later, some of

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Speaker 1: the most notorious criminals in America had been placed there

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Speaker 1: and had passed through there at some point time. I

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Speaker 1: was amazed at the names. And even as an adult

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Speaker 1: when I began to work in Atlanta as a representative

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Speaker 1: of the Medical Examiner's Office, every now and then i'd

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Speaker 1: have to drive by that prison, and even in a

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Speaker 1: passing glance, that child that I was back in seventy

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Speaker 1: two would re emerge, and I still viewed that place

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Speaker 1: as very, very scary. But there's another scary place that

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Speaker 1: is a federal facility, and it's located in Manhattan, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk today about one of the former

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Speaker 1: residents there. We're going to talk about the death of

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Bags, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I thought about you. You and I have these so

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Speaker 1: many commonalities growing up essentially roughly the same circa. I guess,

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Speaker 1: do you have those memories of places that were daunting

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Speaker 1: to you as a child and then maybe you revisit

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Speaker 1: them when you're older And it doesn't seem that way.

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Speaker 2: When I was a kid growing up in southern California,

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Speaker 2: and as we would drive from where we lived in

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Speaker 2: Orange County to grand my grandpa and grandmother's house in

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Speaker 2: North Hollywood, we would drive by downtown Los Angeles. You

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Speaker 2: could see all the buildings, the important buildings, and I

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Speaker 2: was a little kid, okay, but I remember my mother

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Speaker 2: pointing to one of the buildings and saying, that is

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Speaker 2: where Sir Hans Sirhan is right now, and she would

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Speaker 2: give it. We had five kids in our failure, and

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Speaker 2: my mother would give the history of who he was

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Speaker 2: and other criminals that were localized. But that's the one

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Speaker 2: I remember the most was and she said, when you

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Speaker 2: get older, you need to look into that. And she

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Speaker 2: wasn't a conspiracy person, but she was very top of

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Speaker 2: topical current active, you know, in politics and things. And

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Speaker 2: I remember this building and it was it's a building

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Speaker 2: like if you watch dragonet or Adam twelve or any

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Speaker 2: of the you know shows from the late sixties and

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Speaker 2: early seventies Prime in LA they had the same building,

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Speaker 2: the municipal building, and yeah, I remember that, and I

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Speaker 2: remember I would always try to look at the top

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Speaker 2: of it to see if one if he's looking out

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Speaker 2: the window, you know that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: No, kidd, And you know what that building is so iconic.

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Speaker 1: I think it's actually on LAPD's badge.

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Speaker 2: Probably is.

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Speaker 1: When you look at an LAPD badge, that building is

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Speaker 1: on there, and it's really cool. Those badges are something

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Speaker 1: to see. But yeah, yeah, there are those moments in

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Speaker 1: Tom that you know that you kind of drift back.

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Speaker 1: Stepping back just a second. I have to say that

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Speaker 1: the morning that he was discovered deceased, I had a

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Speaker 1: producer at then HLN that doesn't exist anymore, reach out

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Speaker 1: to me and say can you come to studio? We would,

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Speaker 1: and I'll never forget it. I was on air with

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Speaker 1: this one of my favorite reporters, a lady named Elizabeth Prant.

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Speaker 1: And the reason I really like her as her husband

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Speaker 1: was a picture for the Braves and she.

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Speaker 2: I had asked her about her husband.

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Speaker 1: But you know the I remember sitting there and having

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Speaker 1: heard everything about Epstein over the years leading up to

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Speaker 1: this moment in time where he was now confirmed to

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Speaker 1: be deceased. I was thinking, it was kind of a

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Speaker 1: surreal moment, you know, because they're flashing and when you're

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Speaker 1: in one of these studios, flashing up on the screen,

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Speaker 1: those big images, you know, and I could you try

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Speaker 1: not to look at the images because you're looking at

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Speaker 1: the person talking to you, right, I couldn't help it.

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Speaker 1: I kept cutting my eye over and I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: they've got me here talking about this on a Sunday morning.

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Speaker 1: I was amazed that I was having that conversation. And

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Speaker 1: I remember then thinking, you know, how in the world

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Speaker 1: could arguably, I guess, one of the most recognizable convicted

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Speaker 1: and also continued to be accused criminals in the world

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Speaker 1: be dead, be dead in a federal facility. That when

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Speaker 1: you think about it, you know, I think that our

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Speaker 1: mind often defaults to this idea that, Okay, it's a

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Speaker 1: federal it's a federal facility, it's a lockdown. It's probably

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Speaker 1: arguably maybe one of the most secure places in all

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Speaker 1: of Manhattan, Italy, not the Eastern Seaboard. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but he nonetheless, he was dead.

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Speaker 2: They kept all the biggest, hardest criminals up there. But

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Speaker 2: while they were in the process of heading to trial,

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Speaker 2: his roommate, you know, at the time his seally was

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Speaker 2: a cop who at a former cop who had killed

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Speaker 2: four people, you know, was a bodybuilder steroid. Between that

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Speaker 2: who and was a big crime guy there. I mean,

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Speaker 2: they had the biggest criminals in the right. There, here's

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Speaker 2: the key though. You mentioned the day he was found dead.

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Speaker 2: I remember before that, on July twenty third, when he

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Speaker 2: was attacked in his cell or committed tried to commit

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Speaker 2: suicide depending, all right, we covered that on Nancy Grace

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Speaker 2: got a phone call that hey, we got to get

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Speaker 2: on this story. And so before the death we were

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Speaker 2: going in death. We'd already done a number of stories

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Speaker 2: on Epstein and Gallainne Maxwell trying to figureut how to

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Speaker 2: spell her.

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Speaker 1: Name and pronounce it.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that was butchered so many times until we

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Speaker 2: finally got to Gilaine. Anyway, we covered it. For those

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Speaker 2: of you listening to the programmed Body Bags, if you

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Speaker 2: don't know did Jeffrey Epstein story, we could start talking

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Speaker 2: about it now. I looked over the timeline and we

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Speaker 2: could do five shows on it, not get all the

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Speaker 2: information and still not make it to where we're starting today.

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Speaker 2: Right now, we're at the point where Jeffrey Epstein is

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Speaker 2: in jail. He has been arrested and charged with a

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Speaker 2: number of crimes, and they all involve sex with minors,

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Speaker 2: with underage young ladies, and the abuse is in rape,

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Speaker 2: and it's pretty extensive because of his friends. He had

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Speaker 2: friends that stretched all the way to the Royal Palace

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Speaker 2: in England, to the White House in Washington, DC and

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Speaker 2: many points in between. He's a multi millionaire. On July

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Speaker 2: twenty third, he was already in prison, he was already

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Speaker 2: at MCC and we got this story that he had

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Speaker 2: tried to commit suicide. We didn't know if he was dead,

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Speaker 2: We didn't know what was going on, but it turned

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Speaker 2: out that he had injuries. One seven in the morning,

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Speaker 2: July twenty third, corrections officers responded to his cell, where

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Speaker 2: they found him with an orange cloth around his neck.

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Speaker 2: His cell mate told officers that Epstein tried to hang himself.

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Speaker 2: Medical staff examined Epstein, observed friction marks and superficial reddening

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Speaker 2: around his neck and on his knee, and they placed

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Speaker 2: him on suicide watch. Border Prison's policy requires that inmates

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Speaker 2: identified as suicide rigs be placed on suicide watch until

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Speaker 2: they're no longer ineminent threat. I mean's watching them twenty

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Speaker 2: four to seven camera not you know, all the time,

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Speaker 2: and it gets less restrictive. But the reason this is

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Speaker 2: important is because of what happened here. At first, it

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Speaker 2: was his cell he's saying he tried to commit suicide.

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Speaker 2: But they looked at him like, well, the injuries don't

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Speaker 2: match a suicide, you know, it doesn't fit and the

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Speaker 2: like and by the way, why didn't you stop him?

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Speaker 2: Or why didn't you tell somebody you know? And then

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Speaker 2: it went well, I'm not sure, and Epstein said he

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Speaker 2: didn't know what happened. He didn't remember anything. At first,

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Speaker 2: he said his cell mate attacked him. That was the

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Speaker 2: other thing. He said, his cell mate attacked him and

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Speaker 2: tried to kill him. And then when they came back

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Speaker 2: and like, okay, some may said you tried to commit suicide,

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Speaker 2: you're saying it was the cell mate. And by then

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Speaker 2: Epstein changes it story. He says, I don't know what happened.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember anything, and I'm not talking anymore. And

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Speaker 2: that was it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds obviously I don't know. My first reaction

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Speaker 1: to that, Dave, when you say it, is that this

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Speaker 1: sounds like somebody that's terrified. And let's let's look back

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Speaker 1: at this guy. We're talking about how much money he had,

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Speaker 1: just the home that he had in Manhattan, this brownstone

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Speaker 1: that he'd lived in. I guess you would call it

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Speaker 1: a brownstone. Some people refer to it as a mansion.

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Speaker 1: By New York standards, that structure alone is massive, and

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Speaker 1: I think by anybody's standards, this guy has money. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: they talk about Little Saint James the island, you know,

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Speaker 1: who owns an island, And then you think about this

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Speaker 1: huge ranch out in New Mexico that just goes on vast,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you hear all of these stories, and

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Speaker 1: one of the things that always troubled me, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe I'm just applying too much lodge without

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Speaker 1: enough data, but I begin to think about all of

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Speaker 1: these young women that had been brought into his sphere.

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Speaker 1: And many of these young women were from places like

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Speaker 1: Eastern Europe, and allegedly many of them were not just underage,

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Speaker 1: they were significantly underage. And I had thoughts about this, Dave.

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Speaker 1: You know, So after you're done with these young women?

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Speaker 1: Do you put them back on a flight and take

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Speaker 1: them to these nowhere places in eastern Europe where they're

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Speaker 1: recruited from? Where do you go? Do you just do

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Speaker 1: you take them into the US and just like you know,

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Speaker 1: a caged cage doves, you just kind of let them

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Speaker 1: go and fly where they want. Are they wandering around somewhere?

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Speaker 1: What happened to all of those women, those young girls.

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Speaker 1: That was always a head scratcher for me because the

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Speaker 1: story still has blanks that have yet to be filled in.

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Speaker 1: But I know this, I know that he's He's deceased,

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Speaker 1: obviously and under very suspicious circumstances. And for me, as

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Speaker 1: a death investigator, what I have heard and certainly now

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Speaker 1: based upon the photographs that have been released from autopsy,

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Speaker 1: have observed none of these injuries marry up with a

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Speaker 1: classic presentation for him. I've never told you this, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I hated working cases in jail for and I've had

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Speaker 1: to over the years. I've had to go for hangings,

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Speaker 1: natural desks, I've had to visit jil infirmaries for sabbings.

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Speaker 1: I hate it. I despise it. I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of it has to do with. You're treated like an

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Speaker 1: inmate when you show up, you know, because all of

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Speaker 1: us forends that guys have. You know, we have scene bags,

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Speaker 1: we have seen kits, and they have to go through

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Speaker 1: all of that stuff. Not that I'm bringing in anything

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Speaker 1: you know that I shouldn't have, but they're going to

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Speaker 1: check you out thoroughly if you're if you're carrying a weapon,

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Speaker 1: you have to surrender that. And then you know, you

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Speaker 1: walk in and you know that old adage about hearing

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Speaker 1: that door shut behind you. It's a real thing, man,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it really is. And and the odd thing

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Speaker 1: about being inside of a facility like this is that

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Speaker 1: any noise that is made in there because of the structure,

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Speaker 1: because of the stone walls or poured walls and all

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Speaker 1: of the metal framing, it amplifies in that environment. So

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Speaker 1: if somebody in a cell, you know, down the way, coughs,

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Speaker 1: you hear it, it sounds like they're right next to you.

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Speaker 2: And so when you go to a jail to examine somebody,

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Speaker 2: do you actually get them? Do you actually go to

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Speaker 2: where it took place, like in the cell?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I've specifically done that. Not all people

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Speaker 1: are removed from cells and taken to an infirmary. And

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Speaker 1: you know, and that's one of the things that had

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Speaker 1: occurred allegedly with Epstein. His brother had talked about it extensively.

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Speaker 1: Where when Epstein was discovered, one of the jailers actually

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Speaker 1: either the jailer had conflicting statements. He said that he

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Speaker 1: tore and then he said he cut this noose away

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Speaker 1: from him that is tied off of the top bunk rail.

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Speaker 2: And let's back up and get to that. Let's back

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Speaker 2: up for a minute, Joe, because in reality, when you

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Speaker 2: get there, I have a big question for you about

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Speaker 2: just because when I wanted to set it up properly

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Speaker 2: with July twenty third, twenty fourth, because that attack is

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Speaker 2: where why this shouldn't have happened. This the reason there

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Speaker 2: is such a focus on July eight. I'm in August eight,

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Speaker 2: ninth and tenth in Jeffrey Epstein's life and death is

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Speaker 2: because of July twenty third, twenty fourth. The man they called,

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Speaker 2: they think he's seriously injured. They go to his cell.

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Speaker 2: He says, my celly beat me up, tried to kill me.

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Speaker 2: The cell mate says he tried to commit suicide. And

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Speaker 2: then as you said, he's so scared. He says, I

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Speaker 2: want to keep this guy as my cell mate, and

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Speaker 2: I don't know what happened. I'm not talking anymore, so

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Speaker 2: you know, some threat. Something happened, and they analyzed him,

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Speaker 2: they worked with him, they put him on suicide watch.

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Speaker 2: They did all the things they needed to do. But

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Speaker 2: on July thirtieth, the Psychology Department sent an email to

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Speaker 2: seventy mcc New York and play He's explaining the need

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Speaker 2: for an appropriate cell mate for Jeffrey Epstein. They sent

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Speaker 2: that because the cellmate that was leaving was the former

258
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Speaker 2: New York cop who had killed four people, later convicted

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Speaker 2: and sentenced to prison. But they knew that he was

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Speaker 2: going to be transferred out of the cell on August eighth,

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Speaker 2: and there needed to be another replacement. He was not

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Speaker 2: to be left alone because of July twenty third, twenty fourth.

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein was not to be left alone. He was

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Speaker 2: also supposed to be on suicide watch because of July

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Speaker 2: twenty third, twenty fourth, but as it turned out, by

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Speaker 2: August eighth, US Marshall Service sent two emails notifying the

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Speaker 2: MCC staff that Epstein's cellmate was being transferred to another

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Speaker 2: facility on August ninth. No action was taken to make

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Speaker 2: sure Epstein had a suitable roommate a cell mate. Epstein

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Speaker 2: met with his attorneys on August the eighth at the prison,

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Speaker 2: not unusual for a criminal, but that particular meeting. On

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Speaker 2: August the eighth, Jeffrey Epstein signed a new last will

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Speaker 2: and testament. On August ninth, Epstein's cellmate was removed. This

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Speaker 2: is the lead up from July twenty third, twenty fourth.

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Speaker 2: There have been multiple emails passed, do not let this

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Speaker 2: man alone keep a roommate in there. His roommate leaves.

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein's left alone. August ninth, after a meeting at

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Speaker 2: the prison with his lawyers, the mcc New York staff

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Speaker 2: allowed Epstein to make a phone call in violation of

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Speaker 2: Board of Prison's policy. It was unrecorded, unmonitored. They don't

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Speaker 2: know who he talked to. They know what he claimed

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Speaker 2: to talk to, but they believe it was somebody else

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Speaker 2: that he had a relationship with. So he's on the

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Speaker 2: phone talking privately with somebody and that wasn't recorded or

285
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Speaker 2: report monitored or anything, so no telling what he said.

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Speaker 2: Epstein did say, he was calling his mother, but they

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Speaker 2: said it with someone else anyway. August ninth. August ninth,

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Speaker 2: inmates are locked in their cells at eight pm, Epstein

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Speaker 2: is in a c I'll buy himself for the first time.

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Speaker 2: When they next found him at six thirty the next morning,

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Speaker 2: they found him dead. Now before they cut the noos

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Speaker 2: off and everything else. Okay, tell me what was going

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Speaker 2: on in that room in Jeffrey Epstein's cell based on

294
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Speaker 2: the information we have now at six thirty in the morning,

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Speaker 2: when the guy comes in there to check in and

296
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Speaker 2: finds out he's dead, we'll deal with all the things

297
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,040
Speaker 2: that went wrong to allow that to happen. But bottom line,

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Speaker 2: there was no cell mate as there was supposed to be,

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Speaker 2: and he's dead at six thirty in the morning.

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Speaker 1: When when he's discovered, according to the reports, his buttocks

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Speaker 1: he's in a semi seated position. And yes, you can

302
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Speaker 1: hang yourself while slumped seated. I've had people on their

303
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Speaker 1: knees that have hung themselves. You do not have to

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Speaker 1: be fully suspended. He was seated, but his buttocks was

305
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,879
Speaker 1: roughly an inch to an inch and a half off

306
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Speaker 1: of the floor. So when you have people that hang

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Speaker 1: themselves they have a tendency many times to kind of

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Speaker 1: slip into it and slide slowly down. There's a term

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Speaker 1: that's been floating around and it's actually referred to as

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Speaker 1: a soft hanging as opposed to say it just think

311
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Speaker 1: back to Western movies with the gallows, where which would

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Speaker 1: be a hard hanging where you have somebody that drops

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Speaker 1: the force that air body Jeffrey Epstein weighed approximately one

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Speaker 1: hundred and eighty pounds, and but you don't have this

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Speaker 1: dropping effect. You have somebody that is kind of slowly

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Speaker 1: seated going down. But since their body is not being

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Speaker 1: since his body is allegedly not being supported by the floor,

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Speaker 1: where does that leave the weight. Well, the weight is

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Speaker 1: totally being supported by this noose that has been formed

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Speaker 1: and that is around his neck. Here's the problem. When

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Speaker 1: they got to him, the guard, the corrections officer said

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Speaker 1: that he either at first he said he tore then

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Speaker 1: he said he cut the noose away. The noose was

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Speaker 1: not recovered and put into evidence. There was another noose

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Speaker 1: that had been tied previously in the cell that was

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Speaker 1: recovered and there's actually an image of it that you

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Speaker 1: can see. Anybody, I recommend strongly that you go and

328
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Speaker 1: take a look at it.

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Speaker 2: There were two nooses, one that was around his neck

330
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Speaker 2: and one that was just in the room.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's ripped up that Look, there's ripped up orange.

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Speaker 2: Uh, so many sheets in there.

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Speaker 1: That's my big question. And here's another point as well,

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Speaker 1: why is this damn place so disordered? Dave? It looks

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Speaker 1: like squalor that he's living in.

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Speaker 2: And these areas, these cells are usually pretty AUSTEREI they

337
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of stuff in them because they

338
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Speaker 2: don't want the inmates to be able to hide anything,

339
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,879
Speaker 2: squirrelling anything away that they can then turn into a

340
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Speaker 2: means of negotiation. Oh listen, the extra blankets and things

341
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Speaker 2: can turn into money in jail.

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Speaker 1: Well do you remember the sixty minutes episode that came

343
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Speaker 1: out in the wake of his death, And sixty minutes

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Speaker 1: was the first CBS sixty minutes was the first people

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Speaker 1: to put up images. And I did a screen capture

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Speaker 1: on some of these things, and those images when you

347
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Speaker 1: see them. That top bunk that he was, he suspended

348
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Speaker 1: from the side of it. But the top bunk itself,

349
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Speaker 1: let us sink in, didn't have a mattress in it.

350
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Speaker 1: It was just a flat frame. There is a mattress

351
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Speaker 1: on the floor. There's a mattress on the lower bunk,

352
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Speaker 1: but where the mattress would have been on that top bunk, Dave,

353
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Speaker 1: there's prescription medications up there. You can see them lined up.

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Speaker 1: And you know, in my experience, one of the things

355
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Speaker 1: that happens in jails is that you are either if

356
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Speaker 1: you're having to take medication, you go to the infirmary

357
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Speaker 1: and they hand you the medication and they dole it

358
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Speaker 1: out in the little white cups, or a pharmacy cart

359
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 1: comes by with a coe along with it and they

360
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Speaker 1: will give you your meds through the door. This guy

361
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Speaker 1: had meds inside of his cell. How do you explain

362
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Speaker 1: that with this idea that he has suicidal ideation or

363
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Speaker 1: that he has he is attempted to Why are the

364
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Speaker 1: prescription meds in there now? He's also got a seapap machine,

365
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Speaker 1: which I think plays into this as well. The cord

366
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Speaker 1: is laying there adjacent to it on the floor, and

367
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Speaker 1: then there's all these ripped up bits of cloth, orange cloth,

368
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Speaker 1: and it looks like you know, for me, I always

369
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Speaker 1: imagine jail cells to almost have a military feel to it,

370
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Speaker 1: like you get punished if the place is not squared away.

371
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Speaker 1: You're not supposed to be laying on your bunk. You're

372
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Speaker 1: supposed to be you can sit on your bunk with

373
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Speaker 1: your feet on the floor. You can sit in a

374
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Speaker 1: chair that they might provide to you. You can sit

375
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Speaker 1: on the floor. You're not supposed to be late. It's

376
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 1: supposed to have almost this ordered not necessarily spartan, but

377
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be squared away. This place was far

378
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Speaker 1: from it.

379
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Speaker 2: Well, you mentioned the seapat machine. His brother Mark has

380
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 2: really come out in the last several weeks and has

381
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 2: made a lot of comments. And Mark Epstein actually and

382
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Speaker 2: it was Mark Epstein who actually asked doctor Michael Bodden

383
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Speaker 2: to observe the autopsy, which I want to get into that,

384
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Speaker 2: but it was in one of the interviews Mark Epstein

385
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Speaker 2: did where he talked about the seapat machine and he said,

386
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Speaker 2: you know, there's all these strips of cloth and sheets

387
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 2: that are torn into making news. Wouldn't the electrical cave,

388
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 2: you know, plug on the seapat machine been so much

389
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 2: easier to use. It would have been less time, would

390
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 2: have been a lot tougher to it just would have

391
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 2: been a better thing to do than these the sheets.

392
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of indwelling rigidity, which selling rigidity. Yeah,

393
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: you know you've got the wires. They are encased inside

394
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 1: of a rubber sheath, so it's it's literally reinforced. I've

395
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: had people I actually had I know of a lady

396
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 1: that was on a psych unit and I had to

397
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: go to the psych unit and work her her death

398
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: because she was in the acute ward and the nurses

399
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: had let her keep her hair dryer and she hung

400
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: herself with her hair dryer. I've seen this done before.

401
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 1: It is very much. And again she was seated, she

402
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 1: was seated on the floor and kind of and she

403
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: was on the other side of a hospital bed, tied

404
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 1: off on the rail, slid down onto the floor, and

405
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 1: she died. So don't try to tell me that it's

406
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: not possible for this to have occurred. And when you

407
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: can facilitate it, and you have this rigid, semi rigid

408
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: cord that would certainly support the one hundred and eighty

409
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 1: pound man, but you're you're going to defer to a

410
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: piece of cloth to utilize it. And let's face it,

411
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: this is not like high end you know, material. It

412
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: would be easy to tear perhaps, and it's hard to

413
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: fashion something out of it that that would that would

414
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 1: work effectively. I'm not saying it couldn't work. I'm just

415
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 1: saying that it's it wouldn't be your first choice in

416
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: a circumstance like this. And again with all of those medications. Certainly,

417
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: if you were that desperate to take your own life

418
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: and you had access to these, why wouldn't you do it?

419
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you take the backing off of the off

420
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: of the seapap machine, plug the thing, the cord, the

421
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: bare cord into the wall, and hold on to the

422
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: ends of it and an electrocute yourself. I don't know,

423
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: there's any number of ways you could do it. But

424
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: yet he chose, according to them, to rip up sheets,

425
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: sheets or clothing and utilize this as some kind of

426
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: homemade ligature it And it just doesn't marry up in

427
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:48,760
Speaker 1: my mind.

428
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Speaker 2: It also seems like if you were going to if

429
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: you were going to take your own life in a

430
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 2: jail cell, you would be mindful of guards walking by

431
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: watching video, and you would you would be on the

432
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 2: alert for somebody to catch you. And I would think,

433
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 2: considering what happened July twenty third, twenty fourth with whatever

434
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 2: happened there, whether he was attacked by his cell mat

435
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: or tried to commit suicide. They he knew that at

436
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 2: one pint thirty in the morning, they would get found

437
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 2: out fairly quickly. He wouldn't have a bunch of extra

438
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: scraps of cloth ripped. He would just get whatever he

439
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: needed and start and do it. Just get it over with. Yeah,

440
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: and you've got this other cord that would work better.

441
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: So why is there why are there so many strips

442
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: of unused cloth, like he's doing a project for school

443
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: instead of just getting whatever I have to do to

444
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: kill myself before the guards come back.

445
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, in my in my history of

446
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: working suicides, people think that it's kind of this long

447
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: drawn out process where people sit down and write this

448
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: longe notes or the exception, and most of the time,

449
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: and the reason I'm saying this is that many times,

450
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 1: once people have decided to do this, they do it.

451
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,239
Speaker 1: It's kind of like standing on a cliff and you're

452
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 1: going to jump into a body of water. Everybody's you know,

453
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: standing there waiting for you to do it, and finally

454
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: you get up the gumption to do it, and you

455
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 1: do it. Why wouldn't he just move forward with that

456
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: action and take that action. At that moment, Tom he

457
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,719
Speaker 1: sits there and kind of ruminates over this. I don't know.

458
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: I guess he did. But you know, the one thing

459
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: that we don't know is we don't really know what

460
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: his activities were now, do we, because cameras weren't working.

461
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: The documentation is shoddy at best, particularly as it applies

462
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: to an inmate that you are actually saying has suicidal ideation.

463
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 1: You know, you need to be on this guy twenty

464
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 1: four to seven and listen. You cannot lack this. You

465
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 1: cannot have this lack of self awareness in the world.

466
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: You know who he is. I'm not saying he should

467
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: be treated better than anybody else, but certainly you do

468
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: grasp the concept that disguise in the national news that

469
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: if he is an accused pedophile, that there might be

470
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 1: people within this environment that don't particularly care for pedophiles.

471
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: We know what happens in incarcerated situations with people that

472
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: do harm to children, and Lord knows he at that time,

473
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: he's probably the most famous in the world at this

474
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: level that has been accused of this thing and having

475
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: done this over and over and over again. It would

476
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: seem that it would compel the staff to be even

477
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: more vigilant, if you will. But of course, in the

478
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: case of Jeffrey Epstein, that didn't happen. As a medical

479
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: legal death investigator, I have visited every emergency room within

480
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: all of the jurisdictions I have worked in. You spend

481
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: a lot of time in emergency rooms, believe it or not.

482
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: You show up if you're working for the corner of

483
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: the medical examiner, because that's where the remains are, and

484
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: you're notified. You're the first person notified when somebody dies.

485
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: Many times I'd go to the emergency room just so

486
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: I could take a look, maybe do my own examination,

487
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: take photos, and then I would determine that moment time

488
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: if we need to bring the body in for an

489
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: autopsy or just release the body. But you know, Dave,

490
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: the best way to observe any dead body is in

491
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: its pristine state in the cells. In this case, in

492
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: the cell. And but you know that didn't happen. And

493
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: even though Jeffrey Epstein was taken down and then removed

494
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: to the infirmary, they didn't stop there. They went on

495
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: to a hospital.

496
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: At that point in time, to get there to be

497
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: caught up to where we are with the body, because

498
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 2: we've got to get into the autopsy. But Epstein wasn't

499
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: supposed to be alone.

500
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: He was.

501
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: The guards were supposed to be watching. They were supposed

502
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: to be going by every thirty minutes at least, and

503
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 2: they were supposed to be watching on video. We now

504
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,479
Speaker 2: know the video cameras were not working. We know that

505
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 2: the guards did not check the cell, not just every

506
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 2: thirty minutes, not just every hour. They probably were asleep

507
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: and or on the internet googling things face but whatever.

508
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: You mean the guards that were convicted.

509
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 2: Yes, the guards that were convicted for not doing their

510
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 2: job and then lying about it. Yeah, Yes, those are

511
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: the guards I'm talking about.

512
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: I just wanted to make sure.

513
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, mag I'm glad you got that in because that

514
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 2: it's an important part of the story that went into this,

515
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: because it suicide or murder. Well, that's what we've got

516
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 2: to know. And right now, Joe, I have a lot

517
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 2: of suspicion about how many times they were warned, don't

518
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: leave him alone, how many times they were warning to

519
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 2: watch him, like who took him off suicide watch when

520
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,239
Speaker 2: they knew that this guy was a potential threat for suicide, right,

521
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 2: But when they took his body out of the cell,

522
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: he could have been dead for up to six hours

523
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: at that time, Joe, And yet they still went through

524
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: he was dead. They still went through all the motions

525
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: of putting a gown on him at the hospital like

526
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: he was a live guy there and took him into

527
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: the hospital. I'm bringing that up because is that a

528
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 2: common occurrence to take a dead body and obviously dead

529
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: body and put a hospital gown on them at the hospital.

530
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: It seems like you're going to great and most of

531
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: the time. Okay, let me explain it to you this way.

532
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: His clothing was cut away from his body, which is

533
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: standard that does happen because you well, so well, the

534
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: EMTs had cut it away apparently, which is even kind

535
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: of more interesting because he went to the infirmary so

536
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: after the EMTs nine when one call was placed, So

537
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: after they made it through all the levels of security

538
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: with everything they have to make it through therewith with

539
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: all of the kits and all that stuff, they finally

540
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: show up in the infirmary where heroic measures being taken,

541
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: where they still ongoing at that moment time because we

542
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: do know that one of the guards started CPR on

543
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: it and started doing chess compressions. Did that continue on

544
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: into the infirmary and then and then the EMTs took

545
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: over at that point in time as they are transporting

546
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: him to the hospital to the emergency room. But back

547
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: to your question about it, is it common for them

548
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: to put a hospital gown some people. I've heard some

549
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: people call him a Johnny Coke, which is kind of interesting,

550
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: you know, ties in the back. We've all been subjected

551
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: to this humiliation in our lives. Probably the times I've

552
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: seen that happen are generally times where you're gonna have

553
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: family come by and see a body, because other than that,

554
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: what's what's the point? Because they can be covered with

555
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: the sheet and in hospitals they use what's referred to

556
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: as a morg pack, which is a plastic It's different

557
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: than a body bag, but it is a plastic sheet

558
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: that bodies are almost rolled up in and then it's

559
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: got strings that you tied off on the midsection, you

560
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: tied off on the ends. It comes with a diagram

561
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: how to do it, and then you can place the

562
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: body after that onto a tray in the hospital. Morgan

563
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: the cooler to preserve the body until the EMME can

564
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: come and get the body. The me might put the

565
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: body in a body bag at that point in time.

566
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. It all depends on what their practice is.

567
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: But most of the time, you know, when I've seen

568
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: bodies that of individuals, certainly you don't put hospital gowns

569
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,479
Speaker 1: on people that are long dead. And you know, what

570
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: does it benefit What does it profit them to continue

571
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: to do CPR on somebody that if in fact they

572
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: sense that there are post mortem changes going on. You know,

573
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: Epstein's brother actually states that he was told that he

574
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: believes that they believed his brother may have been dead

575
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: for at least two and a half hours when he

576
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: was discovered. By that moment time, you're going to see

577
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 1: evidence of things like postmarmal abidity, the settling of blood,

578
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: which we've talked about extensively on body bags ryger Mortis,

579
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: you'll be able to notice some rigidity in the job, which,

580
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: by the way, would make it very difficult to intubate

581
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: a person because you have to open the mouth to

582
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 1: get the tube in there, which is one of the

583
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: steps if you've got somebody in full cardiac arrest. And

584
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: respiratory rest. You'll want to get oxygen flowing. Well, it's counterintuitive,

585
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: right If somebody's jaws clinched because of riger mortis, that's

586
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: an uphill battle. And for anybody that has any sense

587
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: about them relative to changes after death, you're going to

588
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 1: recognize that it's a card It's literally what we refer

589
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: to as a cardinal sign of death. So and again,

590
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: this is the interesting thing, Dave. We still have yet

591
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: to even see the EMT run sheet. It has not

592
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: been released, and I would love to be able to

593
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: view that and be able to get what their initial

594
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 1: assessment was on him when they picked him up at

595
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: the MCU.

596
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: I think at this point there are so many things

597
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 2: suspect that going into the autopsy. Now, I'm not shocked

598
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 2: that Mark Epstein said I want to have somebody representing

599
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 2: my family in there. At this point, there were already

600
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: so many red flags going up. Mark Epstein is the

601
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: reason that doctor Michael Bowden was invited in. I did

602
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: not realize he was invited in to watch the autopsy.

603
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: I thought it was after the fact. So when you

604
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 2: told me that he was actually in there, I thought, well,

605
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: this is interesting.

606
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, hey, listen a tip of the cap to

607
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: the office's chief medical examiner in this case. And I

608
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: have participated in autopsies where families have representative pathologists there

609
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: to observe, uh, they generally do not How can I

610
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: They're not gonna be the pro sector, which means they're

611
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,720
Speaker 1: not going to be the person actually doing the dissection logy,

612
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: but they will stand there and generally they won't say

613
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: a word. They're gonna but it's kind of it's kind

614
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: of let's see, how can I describe it? You become

615
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 1: hyper aware of everything you do because you know that

616
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: you're being watched in that environment, and if you're doing

617
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 1: the right thing, it's it's no problem. But can you imagine,

618
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: regardless of how anybody feels about doctor Boden, which whom

619
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: I respect greatly. I've known doctor Biden for many years,

620
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 1: you've got Michael Boden standing there, I mean, one of

621
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: the most renowned forensic pathologists anywhere. You have to know

622
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,439
Speaker 1: that all it's a full core press at this point

623
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: in time. So doctor Boden is physically there, and according

624
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 1: to Mark Epstein, this is where it really if it

625
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: couldn't get any any more bizarre. The actual person that

626
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 1: ruled made the ruling on Epstein's death certificate, and remember

627
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: it was first listed as undetermined.

628
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: They actually find on the autopsy, Joe, what did they see?

629
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's that's the curious thing. When they did

630
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: get the neck dissected. First off, let me tell you this.

631
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: I will tell you this. I've seen the images of

632
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: Epstein's body, Jeffrey Epstein's body when he is coming there.

633
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,720
Speaker 1: There was a camera going when he was being wheeled

634
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: into the emergency room. Okay, this is before he's coming

635
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: to his body's coming out. You can clearly see his

636
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: face and he's cyanoutic, which means he's about the color

637
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: of an eggplant, which is consistent. That is consistent with

638
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: an asphixial death and also being ins to failure. So

639
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: he's really purple in color, which you will see. You

640
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: can see it in hangings, you can see it in

641
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: manual strangulations. You can see it when somebody is in

642
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: great respiratory distress and that blood flow is being impeded

643
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: or it backs up to that level in the neck

644
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 1: and it can't kind of recycle the same look.

645
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 2: Whether they did it themselves or had whether I choke

646
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 2: you to death, that you choke yourself out using a

647
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 2: newse same look.

648
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely you can still get that cyanodic appearance.

649
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: And it's really profound when you see the image of

650
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 1: him like that, it's striking. As a matter of fact,

651
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 1: it's it's it catches the eye. And one of the

652
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: images that I also saw relative to Epstein is his

653
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: bottom his lower eyelids being retracted and you can see

654
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,959
Speaker 1: the Pettikia eye in there. So he's got burst blood

655
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 1: vessels in, you know, on the sclere of his eye.

656
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: Know they're there, which again is indicative of an asphixial death.

657
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: It's the question is you get there are fixed as

658
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: fhixial deaths and then there's asphixial deaths, and so you

659
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: have to kind of try to understand how how do

660
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: you come to this? You know, how you how do

661
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 1: you arrive at suicide versus something else, perhaps something more sinister.

662
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: When when Epstein's neck was actually dissected, uh, one of

663
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: the interesting things that was discovered was the fact that

664
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: his thyroid cartilage was fractured. Okay, it's actually got a fracture.

665
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: The cartilage is actually fractured. Which is not unusual in

666
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: a ligature strangulation. It's also common to see in certain

667
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: cases of manual strangulation because if you think about people

668
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: throttling somebody and they're applying tremendous force to the UH,

669
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: to the thyroid cartilage, it can snap, it can break,

670
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: and it's almost like, see, how can I describe it

671
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 1: thyroid cartilage is it's it's like dried wax almost. It

672
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: has that kind of feeling to it, and so it

673
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: can actually crack, and I would imagine the older you get,

674
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: it can possibly possibly become a bit ossified. But here's

675
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: the other thing, the other landmark in the neck that

676
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: comes into play. It's going to be the right greater

677
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: horn of the hyoid bone. And boy have we talked

678
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 1: about hyoid bones over the years. The thing about it

679
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 1: is the hyoid bone is it's it's removed from the

680
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: thyroid cartilage. It's up, I mean, it's high. It anchors

681
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: the tongue in place, and the right greater horn. If

682
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 1: you think about it, I urge anybody to just google it.

683
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: You can look it up and see what it looks like.

684
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: So it's the right aspect. It looks like a horseshoe.

685
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: So imagine the right aspect of the horseshoe, the very

686
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: tip end of it. It's fractured right there. I think

687
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: doctor Biden said he may have seen another fracture along there,

688
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 1: but at least I know the greater horn is fractured,

689
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 1: and then the thyroid card loers is fractured, and it's

690
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: both on the right side. So how do you arrive

691
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 1: at that with a piece of cloth that you've tied

692
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: to the bed that it doesn't have the facility for

693
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: you to jump off of to generate enough energy with

694
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 1: your one hundred and eighty pounds to deliver that kind

695
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: of force to that specific region where that's going to occur. Now,

696
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: is it possible for somebody to sit in that slumped

697
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: position with that direct pressure on there, Dave and over

698
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: a period of time maybe it snaps because of the

699
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: ongoing pressure. Did he sit down forcefully? Could he have

700
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 1: generated enough energy to have sat down that forcefully? Perhaps?

701
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: But this is one thing that you cannot escape in

702
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: this case. You can I don't care how far and

703
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: how fast you run, you can't get away from the

704
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: fact that when you see the exterior of Jeffrey Epstein's neck.

705
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 1: That furrow that is on his neck runs parallel to

706
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: his shoulders. That means it goes straight back. That's not

707
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: the way Noos has worked, Dave, nooses come. It has

708
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: an apex in the back it where it's where the

709
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 1: knot is tied. It generally goes up behind the ears

710
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: and comes to a point right there. And we actually,

711
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: we actually have a term in forensics that's referred to

712
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 1: as tinting feature t E N T I N G.

713
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: Not t I N like tinting on a window. This

714
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: is tinting like pup tint. And literally it's what it means.

715
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: It's it's the shape of a pup tint with the

716
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: top of the tint being the apex of the noose itself. Dude,

717
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: that doesn't exist in this case. You would see you

718
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: would see this scene coming to a point. This thne

719
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: goes straight back, Dave, straight back.

720
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 2: We wouldcause that type of an injury.

721
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 1: The only thing I could, you know, I sat there

722
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 1: in my mind and I'm thinking, huh, okay, if you

723
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,240
Speaker 1: want to go with the hanging, the idea of hanging,

724
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: how could you generate a furrow, a ligature furrow that

725
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: runs parallel to the shoulders, it goes straight back. Well,

726
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 1: he'd have to be laying face down on the floor

727
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: as opposed to sitting up and the noose going up

728
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: behind him till it reaches that peak. You would have

729
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,320
Speaker 1: it peeking, so that you were laying on the floor

730
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 1: face down with the thing running parallel to your shoulders.

731
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 2: That's not how they found him.

732
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: No, it's not how did they find him? Well, they

733
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: found him, according to Mark Epstein, and according to the reports,

734
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: with his buttocks an inch to an inch and a

735
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: half off of the floor, which means the body was

736
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: being supported by the literature are by the news. So

737
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: I don't The question from a scientific standpoint is how

738
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: is this explained? And I think that that's very very

739
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: difficult to explain that.

740
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: I think it's impossible to explain. But when it got

741
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 2: down to it, looking at this overall, you've got the

742
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 2: autopsy done, you've got the medical examiner, and you've got

743
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 2: doctor Michael Bodden who has been there watching the whole thing.

744
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 2: They actually came to an agreement on what they believed.

745
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: Is that not am I being accurate in that?

746
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: Yeah? And here's the thing, And I think that you

747
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: and I talked about this off air, and you'd actually

748
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 1: mentioned it to me, and I'd heard it from another

749
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: source that doctor Sampson I think, who is the chief

750
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: medical examiner for New York. She's the one that initially

751
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 1: ruled this as an undetermined and then changed that ruling

752
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: to suicide. Here's the problem. According to Mark Epstein, Samson

753
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 1: was not in the autopsy suite. She's not the one

754
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 1: that did the post. It's doctor Roman, Kristin. I think

755
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: it's Christi or Kristin Roman that actually did the autopsy,

756
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: with doctor Boden observing physically there. So in such a

757
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: complex case like this, why first off, why do you

758
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: only have one representative from OCME in there and then

759
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: you have doctor Boden. I would think in a high

760
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: profile case like this, and I know that they're very busy.

761
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: I know they're very busy in New York, and you

762
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 1: know that's the reality of it, but it would seem

763
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 1: to stand the reason I would want to try to

764
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 1: get as many eyes as I possibly could on this case.

765
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,799
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, i'd have people from US Marshalls.

766
00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: I probably have people from FBI physically, they're observing this,

767
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: taking photographs, and I'd want to get everybody's name that

768
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 1: was present in the autopsy suite. We're starting at I

769
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: don't know whatever time they're going to start at. At

770
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: eight o'clock the next morning. You have an open invitation,

771
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: we would strongly advise you to be here. I want

772
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 1: as many people in that room as we possibly can.

773
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 1: We're going to document each and everything, because when you

774
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 1: fail to do that, when you don't have when you

775
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: don't have sufficient scientific backing and explanation, you're going to

776
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: wind up with questions. And I don't know that we'll

777
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 1: ever have the answers. And I think one more thing,

778
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: thinking about this ligature that was used, and if you

779
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: have any questions about a ligature relative to the marketing

780
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 1: that it can lead. I do this with my students

781
00:46:54,480 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State to try to demonstrate the distribution of

782
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: force on a surface. If you take an apple, for instance,

783
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: and if you have like a piece of nylon, you

784
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 1: wrap it around the circumference of the apple. As you

785
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: begin to tighten that nylon, it can be even dental floss.

786
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: You'll see that it creates a very narrow furrow in

787
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,720
Speaker 1: the surface of that piece of fruit. And it goes deep.

788
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: Whereas if you use something like, I don't know, a

789
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 1: necktie to try to create a furrow, that furrow, though

790
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: it's going to be wide, it's going to be very

791
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: very shallow. Dave. In this particular case, this furrow that

792
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: runs parallel to the shoulders of Epstein is deep. It's

793
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: not something that you would commonly associate with a piece

794
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: of cloth running across the neck, unless that piece of

795
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: cloth was twisted so very tightly that it would produce

796
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: this more narrow surface. But here's the problem. We never

797
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: got to see that news, did we, because that noose

798
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: wasn't collected for evidence. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this

799
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: is body backs