1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome 3 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: to our Friday casual Chats. I'm Holly Fry. I'm Tracy 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: v Wilson. Uh, Tracy. This week we talked about Lester Hemingway. 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: We did lesser known sibling of Ernest. I didn't realize 6 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: that Ernest Hemingway came from a family of six children. 7 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: They had a lot of kids, those Hemingways, and Lester 8 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: is such a fascinating figure to me because he did 9 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: I mentioned it in the episode. He did sort of 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: happily live in his his brother's shadow and be the 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: support system in some ways for his brother, although his 12 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: brother had also been a support system to him when 13 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: he was a young boy. Uh. But then that whole 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: you mentioned when you got the outline that third act 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: takes a turn. Yeah, I mean I didn't really know. 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: Here's I'm I've read Hemingway. I studied literature, unsurprisingly, but 17 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: like the things that I associate with Hemingway, most are 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: Key West and cats with extra toes, of which I 19 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: now have to cats with extra toes. I did not 20 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: know anything about his brother at all, so as I 21 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: was reading through the thing like at first, I was like, 22 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: this is a pretty, uh, refreshing but kind of like 23 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: a biography of the sibling of the famous person. It's 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: refreshing in that he did seem to not mind that 25 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: he was in his brother's shadow. I think a lot 26 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: more often you hear more dramatic stories of people who 27 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: feel like they can't escape their brother's shadow, and it 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: has a whole different tone. And then I was like, wait, 29 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: an island. And then then I got to the question 30 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: of Okay, he had this raft, he anchored it off 31 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: the coast of Jamaica. He said that he was claiming 32 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: it under the Guano Islands Act. And then I was like, 33 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: was there guana? Well? And I never found anything about 34 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: that because I wondered the same thing. My my supposition 35 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: is that he put his raft out there and he 36 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: waited until a sea bird came and pooped on it, 37 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: and then he claimed it because that's all you had 38 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: to or that wasn't all, but that was one of 39 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: the requirements of claiming uh it still is a requirement 40 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: of claiming land for the United States under that Act, 41 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: is that it has to be a source of guano. 42 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: So I presume. I mean, if you put any structure 43 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: out in the open water for very long, a bird 44 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: will find it sure and just you know, as a 45 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: good resting place for a minute or two. So it's 46 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: a safe bet that if you put a structure, it's 47 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: a little if you build it, they will poop. Kind 48 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: of situation. Um, But then it's uh. I had this 49 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: secondary thought that may make me sound terribly prissy of um, 50 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: if you're doing this and half of the island is 51 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: set aside theoretically under this act to be a guano 52 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: source i e. A bird sanctuary of some sort, not 53 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: officially under the title of sanctuary, but that raft is 54 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: not very big. Country is abudded against um excrement harvest, 55 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: which doesn't sound fun at all. No, I had. I 56 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: had a lot of questions about the whole raft plan. 57 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: I did too, but I also love it. And my 58 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: husband is very ready to go find an island somewhere 59 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: and claim it. Yeah, I'm not sure how he thinks 60 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: this is gonna work. I mean, I like the idea 61 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: of setting up like a party planet or a place 62 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: you can go and have people come and and have 63 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: cocktails and laugh. But I'm fundamentally too lazy to do 64 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: such things. Yeah. I I also feel like of all 65 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: the various stories we have told over the years, uh, 66 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: or that exists, I mean we it's only come up 67 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: on the show maybe a couple of times, but there 68 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: are other stories of a white person trying to found 69 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: a country in the Caribbean. It's like the less problematic 70 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: little raft and not a place that he just showed 71 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: up and said, I am king of this now. Yeah. 72 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: To be fair, the Guano Islands Act has been used 73 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: absolutely to claim islands where other people were like, hello, 74 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: we live here here um, and have been contested. I 75 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: think I read I read the stat that a hundred 76 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: something like a hundred islands have been claimed under that law, 77 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: but most of them were did not actually meet the 78 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: criteria and we're abandoned for that effort thankfully. Though. It's 79 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: also less of a an economic driver because we don't 80 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: need guano. You can go to your local hardware or 81 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: home store and find all kinds of fertilizer, some of 82 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: which is synthetically produced, uh, and not have to worry 83 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: about wing and finding an island with some on it. 84 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: If you just want to hop around islands or build 85 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: a raft uh, it is interesting. One of the things 86 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: that I didn't go into depth about in that episode 87 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: is that in his write ups about uh New Atlantis 88 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: in Jamaican papers, they seem to find him quite delightful. 89 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: They're not like, what is this dufis dude trying to 90 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: do off our coast. They're like, he seems nice, his 91 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: intentions seem good. He doesn't seem like he's trying to 92 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: cause a problem. He wants to do some science. Great, 93 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: Lester Hemingway, you fascinate me utterly. Uh So. The other 94 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: the other topic that we had today was my interview 95 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: at Dr Kalinda Lee from the Atlanta History Center, who 96 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: I adore um. You can hear my adoration for her 97 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: in that interview. One of the things that did not 98 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: come up one of the artifacts in that exhibit that 99 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: really really struck me, and that Howard pointed out to 100 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: me initially while we were there together. We know about 101 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: racism and segregation, and those are things we have talked about, 102 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: but there was this one item that made it so 103 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: obvious just how deep the roots of it were still 104 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: are in many places. There was a mail bag that 105 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: was that's part of the exhibit and It's like a 106 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: mail bag that has, you know, two sides, and the 107 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: sides are labeled so that one is white people's male 108 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: and one is black people's mail. And it was like 109 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: their racism runs so deep they didn't even want their 110 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: mail touching. Yeah. We like, we hear so much about 111 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: water fountains and bathrooms and bus seats, and I think 112 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: this is the first time that I've heard about segregated 113 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: mail sorting. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I um. It was 114 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: one of those moments where you just look at it 115 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: and you're like, well, like there again. It so clear 116 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: that the roots are so deep at that point that 117 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: it's very disturbing. But as we talked about in that interview, 118 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: ultimately that exhibit is so really, really celebratory of all 119 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: of the activism that was happening in big and small ways. 120 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: That it is even though there are moments like that, 121 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: and there are I mean, there are you know, clan 122 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: robes on display and things that are very hard to 123 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: look at and to think about, but so much really 124 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: and really, what you leave with is this beautiful sense 125 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: of like just the perseverance of spirit and how there 126 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: have always been people working for betterment, which is a 127 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: really wonderful way to pace that exhibit out. I loved 128 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: it so much, um. And I also got to walk 129 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: around the Cyclorama while I was there, which I haven't 130 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: seen since the restoration on it. I haven't ever, you haven't. 131 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: I went when I was in college for something and 132 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: I don't remember, and that was when it was over 133 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: um um in Grant Park. And I mean the I 134 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: actually would love to do an episode about the Cyclorama's 135 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: history because it has a long and interesting history and 136 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: in terms of art preservation and restoration and and how 137 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: it's story, I mean, the thing that's that's interesting is 138 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: that that was never meant to be a historical document. 139 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: It was always intended to be an entertainment device and 140 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: so um, you know, hanging closely to reality historically was 141 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: not ever a big prominent issue. But it also shifted 142 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: around a lot over time. When it moved to the South, 143 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: it got repainted in some ways that were very historically inaccurate. Uh, 144 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: and it has since been restored. And also just again 145 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: from a preservation standpoint, the things they have done to 146 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: make sure that it is uh something that is not 147 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: just preserved for now, but they have also put aside 148 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: money to make sure that they have ongoing maintenance and 149 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: preservation for it. It's very very cool. Um. I was 150 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: surprised by how much I enjoyed it. We got shushed 151 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: because we were talking about the history of it while 152 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: a tour was going through, and one of the tour 153 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: ladies shushed us. But uh, and I almost wanted to go. 154 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: You're actually missing out on the best information over here 155 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: because I was getting a whole private tour of my own. 156 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: But it is really it's an interesting thing. If you 157 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: are from Atlanta and you grew up going to the 158 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: Cyclorama as a uh grade schooler or at some other 159 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: point in your education, you were probably forced to go, 160 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: and you're like, Uh, I actually encourage you to go 161 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: and see it now because one, again, the restoration is beautiful, 162 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: but too it's all contextualized now that it's at the 163 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: History Center, and they talk about what it's it's history 164 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 1: meant and why it is important to to see it 165 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: both as a part of entertainment history and and as 166 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: a representation of how people have seen history from their 167 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: points of view over time. Uh. And they that whole 168 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: area is really really beautifully done, so highly recommended. Uh. 169 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: And again I cannot recommend black citizenship in the Age 170 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: of Jim Crow strongly enough. As I mentioned in that interview, 171 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: that art section at the end is like breathtaking. There's 172 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: some really beautiful pieces, So highly recommend. I envy your 173 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: trip and your your interview. I know I'm very spoiled child, 174 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: and I want Kalinda to come on all the time. 175 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us, you can 176 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: do so at History Podcast at iHeart radio dot com. 177 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: You can also find us on social media as Missed 178 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: in History and don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. 179 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: You could do that on the I Heart Radio app, 180 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: at Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. Stuff you Missed 181 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 1: in History Class is a production of I Heart Radios 182 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, 183 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 184 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.