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Speaker 1: From the studio who brought you the piked in Masaker

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Speaker 1: and murder one oh one.

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Speaker 2: This is in Cells. I am a loser, but also woman.

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Speaker 2: Know whatn't Damien either.

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Speaker 1: From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset.

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Speaker 2: I can't have you girls, I will destroy you.

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Speaker 3: A kind of subculture, a hidden world of resentment, cynicism,

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Speaker 3: anger against women.

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Speaker 4: This is a wake up call for how we think

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Speaker 4: about manhood.

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Speaker 2: A seed of loneliness explodes.

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Speaker 5: I just hate myself.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me,

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Speaker 2: but I will punish you all for it. That was

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Speaker 2: the point where I realized I can't help him. He

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Speaker 2: doesn't want it. At a deadly tipping point. In Cells

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Speaker 2: will be added to the Terrorism Guide.

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Speaker 6: Please say a driver intentionally drove into a crowd, killing

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Speaker 6: ten people.

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Speaker 2: I just told my husband I know she's dead.

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Speaker 1: Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which

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Speaker 1: I will have my revenge.

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Speaker 2: This is in Cells.

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Speaker 7: How does it feel if you could just drop that

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Speaker 7: any minute and nobody will even notice.

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Speaker 1: Listen to season one of In Cells starting September twenty

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Speaker 1: fourth on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts.

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Speaker 4: This program features the individual opinions of the host, guests,

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Speaker 4: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 4: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 8: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 8: crime all the time. It's Thursday, September twenty fifth. I'm

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Speaker 8: Stephanie Leidecker and I head up KT Studios, where we

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Speaker 8: make true crime podcasts like In Cells out now and

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Speaker 8: The Idaho Massacre season three also out now. Please download

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Speaker 8: on your iHeartRadio app. And I get to be here

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Speaker 8: every single night with Courtney Armstrong and Body Moven, who

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Speaker 8: are also on the podcast, So please check it out.

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Speaker 8: Because guys, we have a stack knight of headlines. This

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Speaker 8: day has been wild in the news. There is so

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Speaker 8: much going on that we again we have to fast

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Speaker 8: talk because we're literally afraid to not get through it all. Listen,

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Speaker 8: Diddy back in court after all this time, ahead of sentencing.

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Speaker 8: He has something to say and his defense attorneys are

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Speaker 8: taking a whole new spin on this. We also have

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Speaker 8: updates in the very tragic celestiev Us case. Again, no

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Speaker 8: arrests have been made. Why was this young woman found

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Speaker 8: in the trunk of a tesla. Licensed and marriage therapist

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Speaker 8: Jess Kaplin is going to be finally with us again.

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Speaker 2: Jess knows best.

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Speaker 8: She has said to us many times that you know,

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Speaker 8: every Thursday cannot happen. So we have dragged her back

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Speaker 8: in because because it's been a really hard time. I

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Speaker 8: think we can all agree we've all seen a lot

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Speaker 8: in the news lately, and finding some tools to be

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Speaker 8: able to deal with that is is kind of the

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Speaker 8: name of the game. So later in the show, Jess

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Speaker 8: will be joining us, and also Benjamin Johnson, the president

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Speaker 8: of the US Marshall's Museum, will.

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Speaker 2: Also be joining us.

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Speaker 8: Heroes at work and boy the work they have done,

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Speaker 8: even just recently in the Travis Decker case, and also

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Speaker 8: those Epstein files. Will they be released soon? Big win

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Speaker 8: today and Barry Morphew. I mean we've been following this

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Speaker 8: case since day one. Body, it is so close to

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Speaker 8: your heart. Remember, he was the man accused of murdering

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Speaker 8: his wife. He has been released, he has posted bail

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Speaker 8: and is out until further notice. So so much to

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Speaker 8: unpack there. I'm not even sure where to begin. Courtney Armstrong,

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Speaker 8: please tell us, Okay, let's start with Diddy.

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Speaker 1: So this was interesting. This was an interesting day in court.

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Speaker 1: Sean Di Diy Coombs appeared in a federal court room

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Speaker 1: today and his attorneys made a final attempt. I mean, really,

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Speaker 1: this has been so many times they have tried to

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Speaker 1: get charges off. So it's a final attempt to overturn

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Speaker 1: his Man Act convictions. Or they're wondering if they can

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Speaker 1: get a retrial ahead of his October third sentencing. So

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Speaker 1: that was a surprising ask to me. A retrial, Yeah, so.

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Speaker 5: I can't imagine that they would have a retrial.

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Speaker 1: I don't either, but listen, so Colmbs, he of course

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Speaker 1: was arrested back in September of last year, and he

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Speaker 1: was charged with a lot of crimes, a lot of

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Speaker 1: federal crimes, sex trafficking, racketeering, prostitution related offenses.

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Speaker 2: These all were under the Man Act.

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Speaker 1: He was acquitted of the most serious charges, but in

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Speaker 1: July of this year, he was convicted of two counts

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Speaker 1: and those related to transporting individuals for prostitution, and for

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Speaker 1: that he is still incarcerated. So today his legal team

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Speaker 1: asked Judge Sumeranian to overturn the prostitution related conviction or

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Speaker 1: again grant a new trial, and the defense attorney Alexandra Sapiro,

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Speaker 1: argued that Colmbs was simply a voyeur and a consumer

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Speaker 1: and not a pimp or a profiteer. And that's the

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Speaker 1: big distinction that they're making. What they're arguing is that

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Speaker 1: therefore he is not liable under the Man Act. Shapiro

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Speaker 1: went on to call the Man Act racist and sexist

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Speaker 1: and said it had been misapplied to Colmes, who allegedly

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Speaker 1: had no financial motive. So we dug into this a

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Speaker 1: little bit, body, can you enlighten us a little bit

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Speaker 1: on the Man Act.

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Speaker 9: I was like, really surprised by this racial thing in

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Speaker 9: the Man Act because I had no idea what that meant, right,

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Speaker 9: and neither did any of us, so I had to

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Speaker 9: look it up. Well, apparently this Man Act was passed

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Speaker 9: in nineteen ten, and it kind of came out of

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Speaker 9: this moral panic about white slavery. In quotes is what

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Speaker 9: they're what they're saying. It was a moral crusade. Do

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Speaker 9: you guys remember satanic panic?

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Speaker 2: Sure? Is that right?

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Speaker 9: It's kind of like that, But it applies to this

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Speaker 9: moral panic that this crusade that claimed white women were

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Speaker 9: being kidnapped and forced into prostitution, often you know, initiated

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Speaker 9: by immigrants or black men. So on its face, yeah,

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Speaker 9: the Man Act, Holy crap, it seems pretty racist. But

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Speaker 9: it did evolve and it was changed in the seventies

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Speaker 9: to give it more modern tones. Okay, And the modern

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Speaker 9: portion of it is that, you know, there doesn't have

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Speaker 9: to be any race involved, there doesn't have to be

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Speaker 9: any even any profits. It could just be you know,

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Speaker 9: for the transportation of illegal activities. So I think that's

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Speaker 9: what the prosecution is going to counter with.

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Speaker 8: Which is fascinating because again this is a new ad

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Speaker 8: in a different time and dis reiterate where we're talking about. Also,

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Speaker 8: if you go back in time, and the real accusation

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Speaker 8: is that Sean Puffy Combs or Diddy was hiring escorts

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Speaker 8: or sex workers from different states to come to his home.

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Speaker 2: Whatever said home this was.

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Speaker 8: It could be Miami, it could be in a Los Angeles,

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Speaker 8: who knows, and that once there, these women were sort

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Speaker 8: of put into very compromising, difficult situations.

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Speaker 9: Go ahead, right, So I just want to follow up

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Speaker 9: really quickly with this modern application because I want to

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Speaker 9: read directly, because I want to be really clear. Okay,

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Speaker 9: definitely today most Man Act prosecutions involve sex trafficking, coercion,

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Speaker 9: or prostitution rings where profit is present. Okay, so that's

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Speaker 9: a big deal, right Where profit is present, but legally

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Speaker 9: profit is not an element. Someone can still be charged

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Speaker 9: and prosecuted and convicted if they knowingly transport someone for

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Speaker 9: illegal sexual activity, regardless of money. In the bottom line

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Speaker 9: is you don't have the profit. What matters is the

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Speaker 9: purpose of the transportation. If it's for prostitution, unlawful sexual activity,

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Speaker 9: or trafficking, that's enough.

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Speaker 1: So I feel like, yeah, this will come down to

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Speaker 1: whether the judge is sort of a letter of the

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Speaker 1: law or a spirit of the law judge, right.

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Speaker 5: I think that's probably right. I got to jump in.

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Speaker 2: I have to jump in.

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Speaker 8: I'm it's crazy making because I feel like we're again

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Speaker 8: and we've talked a lot about the technicalities of sentencing,

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Speaker 8: and it's all really important and we have to unpack it.

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Speaker 2: I think at the core what we're missing here.

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Speaker 8: Is that Diddy, whether it was a sex worker, whether

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Speaker 8: it was his ex girlfriend, whether it was his assistant,

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Speaker 8: whether it was anybody in the orbit of ditty Land,

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Speaker 8: which there was a real orbit, he was paying people

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Speaker 8: to do things to get him drugs to By the way,

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Speaker 8: now he's sober, so you know, an acknowledgment worthy of

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Speaker 8: noting prison will do that to you, right fourteen months

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Speaker 8: behind bars might sober you. Up here we are, however,

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Speaker 8: here he is either kind of organizing a little pornographic play,

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Speaker 8: if you will. That's what the freakofs were. He was

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Speaker 8: organizing freakofs at high luxury hotels, staying there for days.

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Speaker 8: It was so drenched with oil and semen and blood

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Speaker 8: that they had to actually close the rooms for service,

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Speaker 8: just to reiterate, because I don't want us to lose

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Speaker 8: the actual story of the time. And then he would

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Speaker 8: be sitting in a corner with a video camera or

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Speaker 8: I think it was literally like a camquarder of yesteryear

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Speaker 8: as reported reported, or some sort of a camera and

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Speaker 8: his ex girlfriend or sex workers PASSI Ventura had to

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Speaker 8: you know, really attest to some of this on the

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Speaker 8: stand while nine months pregnant, not only in front of

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Speaker 8: her friends and her family and her you know, coworkers

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Speaker 8: and musical icons the world, and basically go to these

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Speaker 8: freakoff pornaography plays, which is now I think and correct

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Speaker 8: me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 2: At the root of this, were those consensual?

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Speaker 8: Was that maybe the Man Act or was that non

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Speaker 8: consensual or My biggest issue is who cares. I don't

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Speaker 8: care if it's your ex, if it's a sex worker,

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Speaker 8: if it's somebody who is there on their own fruition.

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Speaker 8: At first, the idea that he was taping things against

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Speaker 8: people's knowledge and then using it as blackmail against them,

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Speaker 8: their careers, their families, their mothers, for power and coercion,

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Speaker 8: that is my problem. I think that's all of our problems.

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Speaker 8: I don't care what you do behind closed doors. Have

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Speaker 8: as many freak offs as you want. If it is

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Speaker 8: consensual and safe and everyone's down, that is fine. But

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Speaker 8: this was not that we heard testimony after testimony bruises

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Speaker 8: people that were being held in coerce against their will.

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Speaker 8: I should say, even if they had will in the

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Speaker 8: beginning and three days later we're life, please let me out.

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Speaker 2: He would not.

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Speaker 9: And to your point, though the Man Act doesn't even

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Speaker 9: require a coersion, you.

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Speaker 5: Know exactly you know? So I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 5: what this is.

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Speaker 8: Well, we're doing a little play of pornography, so that

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Speaker 8: implies like, hey, listen, I'm not pimp. I'm not distributing

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Speaker 8: this little play, okay. Yeah, And I'm like I'm populating

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Speaker 8: it with my girlfriends or populating it with sex workers

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Speaker 8: or people that work in my circle. Okay, do you boo? No, No,

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Speaker 8: that's not what's happening. There's actual violence at hand. There's

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Speaker 8: drugs being incorporated into the mix, whether they like it

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Speaker 8: or not.

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Speaker 2: Violence and blackmail, and that is the problem.

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Speaker 8: If that tape is going to be used and threatened

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Speaker 8: against you to sell to your mom or to send

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Speaker 8: to your mom to get her fired from her job,

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Speaker 8: as in Cassie Ventura's testimony his ex girlfriend nine months pregnant,

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Speaker 8: that's a different thing. I don't even know what the

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Speaker 8: apples and oranges are here, And if you do, if

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Speaker 8: anyone listens, could kind of break that down, please eight

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Speaker 8: eight eight three one crime, Join us live.

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Speaker 2: I might be getting it wrong, but I feel like we're.

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Speaker 8: Getting lost in the sauce in technicalities and not really

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Speaker 8: focus on the right thing. And maybe that's because the

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Speaker 8: charges were incorrect in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Well exactly, And the prosecutors are laying out a lot

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Speaker 1: of what you said, and they argue that the jury's

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Speaker 1: verdict absolutely should stand. You know, when they point to

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Speaker 1: the fact that there was violent conduct, there was drug

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Speaker 1: use tied to these sexual encounters, so that that is

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Speaker 1: their argument. There was no ruling from the judge, by

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Speaker 1: the way, so yeah, they did not rule and said

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Speaker 1: that they would issue a decision very shortly ahead of

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Speaker 1: the scheduled October third sentencing, which ps, it's.

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Speaker 8: Going to be before, it's going to be tomorrow. I

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Speaker 8: think again, I'm guessing, but I've learned this here, so just.

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Speaker 2: Play with me.

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Speaker 8: This is play along amongst us checking guys, let's play

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Speaker 8: Fridays always hear is a pretty loose or if you

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Speaker 8: want to release something really big in the press, it

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Speaker 8: seems like the pattern is release it on Friday, because

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Speaker 8: people have the weekend to simmer down, and it's a

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Speaker 8: very specific time in the world right now and in

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Speaker 8: the country right now, we're all suffering and recovering from

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Speaker 8: watching a live assassination. Suddenly, comparatively, Diddy maybe seems smaller, right,

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Speaker 8: And I worry about that because let's remember, this is

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Speaker 8: somebody who was using his power in influence and control

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Speaker 8: as an abuse of power. That is at its core

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Speaker 8: the story here. It's not a he said, she said,

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Speaker 8: or you know, technicality on the law from nineteen oh two.

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Speaker 8: I know that's not what's happening.

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Speaker 2: Except that it is. No, except that it is. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's yes, that letter of the law. That's right.

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Speaker 1: And so you know what is he is charged with

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Speaker 1: are the charges and what the jury decided. They decided, unless,

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Speaker 1: of course, the judge chooses to overturn or give a retrial,

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Speaker 1: which seems so unlikely.

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Speaker 8: He's very measured, and he's very measured, and he's done

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Speaker 8: a really great job as a judge. I think we

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Speaker 8: all agree, right, he's been really low key, very clear,

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Speaker 8: he's been very fair.

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Speaker 2: I think he's been very responsive.

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Speaker 9: Remember all the jury problems he had to deal with.

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Speaker 9: Although that's right, body, Young Miami. He did a great job.

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Speaker 2: He did.

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Speaker 8: He did really you remember, Young Miami at one point

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Speaker 8: was going to testify and then that went away. And

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Speaker 8: then on behalf of Shandecombe's many people came forward and

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Speaker 8: wrote letters on his behalf, you know, urging the judge

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Speaker 8: to release him like now, as opposed to tomorrow or tuesday

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Speaker 8: or in four years. And you know some of those

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Speaker 8: were his children, his mother, Janice Combs, who's you know,

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Speaker 8: eighty two or eighty three years old who wants to

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Speaker 8: have her son home. He is claiming to be sober

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Speaker 8: and has been in very difficult conditions with you know,

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Speaker 8: a very crappy prison. I think by all accounts, that's

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Speaker 8: not a great spot to be in. So there's you know,

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Speaker 8: maggots in the food, and it's loud and uncomfortable, and

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Speaker 8: he's sleeping on a small bed. But like, this is

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Speaker 8: a guy that was like getting served on a gold

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Speaker 8: tray anything he wanted at any time, because his little

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Speaker 8: network kind of did whatever he said. And that was

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Speaker 8: a very they never said no. Remember we heard a

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Speaker 8: lot of testimony.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he had assistants who you know carried his was

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Speaker 1: that the Louis Vuitton bag filled with all his special yes,

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Speaker 1: drugs were whatever they needs.

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Speaker 5: Were the assistant that got like kidnapped.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, and how about the one that got kidnaped three

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Speaker 8: days oh yeah, and put on a lie detector test.

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Speaker 8: How about de Yancey Nash who claimed to have been

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Speaker 8: violently strangled, also just dropped a civil lawsuit Don Richard,

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Speaker 8: remember also from Dannady Kane said that he attempted to

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Speaker 8: hit Cassie his ex girlfriend with a skillet because she

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Speaker 8: didn't listen to him immediately. You know, Steventura, we saw

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Speaker 8: that video on CNN. We saw her get beaten to

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Speaker 8: the flore and we saw that he got away with

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Speaker 8: it because he paid somebody off fifty grand, one hundred grand,

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Speaker 8: fifty one hundred grand total.

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Speaker 2: Can I just remember the guy's name.

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Speaker 8: His first name is Israel. His last name is something.

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Speaker 8: We'll find it during the break. He is the hero

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Speaker 8: of this story. He is the security guy at that

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Speaker 8: hotel that did not take the bribe from Diddy R.

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Speaker 8: He testified against him and actually stepped in when Cassie

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Speaker 8: was being beaten.

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Speaker 2: That should be a hero, Israel may Ylores. So let's

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Speaker 2: hear it from him. Well.

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Speaker 9: When we come back, Licensed therapist Jessica Caplan joins us

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Speaker 9: to tackle a really big question, how do we stay

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Speaker 9: sane when all these headlines feel insane? Stick with us

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Speaker 9: True Friend Tonight.

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Speaker 8: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 8: true crime all time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker. I'm here, of

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Speaker 8: course with Courtney Armstrong and body Moven and listen. It

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Speaker 8: has been a very heavy time and I know I

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Speaker 8: am not alone in this. We have talked about this

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Speaker 8: off camera. We've honestly it's been I got a little

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Speaker 8: like choked up in my car for no reason yesterday,

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Speaker 8: and listen, I think for good reason. We've all experienced

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Speaker 8: a lot of horror recently. I mean two weeks ago,

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Speaker 8: we literally saw Charlie Kirk murdered on TV and assassinated live.

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Speaker 2: I wish I hadn't seen it.

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Speaker 8: My heart so deeply goes out to his family and

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Speaker 8: his children and anybody in his circle. And as someone

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Speaker 8: who doesn't know him, thought it was too much. And honestly,

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Speaker 8: I wasn't even familiar with Charlie Kirk until this happened.

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Speaker 8: And I don't know, a piece of my DNA has changed.

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Speaker 8: And I feel like we've all collectively almost like seen

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Speaker 8: too much. You know, it's a lot, and I think

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Speaker 8: it's therefore heightened, and I personally am not totally sure

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Speaker 8: what to do with that. And we figured we were

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Speaker 8: bringing our very favorite marriage and the family therapist, Jessica Kaplan,

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Speaker 8: who you know, we all humbly believe is kind of

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Speaker 8: the answer to all great things, just knows best to

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Speaker 8: kind of get us a little grounded maybe give us

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Speaker 8: a little tools because honestly, I think it's in the

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Speaker 8: air right now and I don't know how to shake

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Speaker 8: it off.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know if we're ining my notes.

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Speaker 5: I'm taking notes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna get mine now too. Yes, we all

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Speaker 2: have questions.

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Speaker 8: And by the way, if anybody wants to say ask

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Speaker 8: Jessica a question, please call us live eight at eight

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Speaker 8: three one crime, leave us a talkback on the iHeartRadio app.

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Speaker 2: It's free.

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Speaker 8: Just download the app, push the button in the right

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Speaker 8: hand corner and boom, you're on the show. Or you

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Speaker 8: can always hit us up on our socials because you're

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Speaker 8: the answer jess this week.

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Speaker 10: Know, it's been a really hard week or two for

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Speaker 10: all of us. Yes, it's been so intense, and it

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Speaker 10: is very, very easy to feel incredibly overwhelmed with the

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Speaker 10: amount of tragedy that we see in the news now

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Speaker 10: on a daily basis. And I think for some of

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Speaker 10: us we start to become desensitized to it. It's like

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Speaker 10: you're either becoming desensitized to it or your system is nervous,

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Speaker 10: system is just shutting down. It puts us in a

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Speaker 10: position of like fight or flight. Some of us, Yeah,

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Speaker 10: we feel ourselves either completely shutting down or feeling like

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Speaker 10: we're in our rectilian brain and we are operating all

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Speaker 10: day long in this heightened state of feeling a persu

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Speaker 10: threat almost, and that leads to a cortisol dump in

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Speaker 10: our system that makes us overwhelmed, exhausted. It impacts our mood,

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Speaker 10: it impacts our bioorrhythms, our circadium rhythms, and it's really

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Speaker 10: serious and it can take a toll. So I think

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Speaker 10: it's very important that we try to take care of

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Speaker 10: ourselves as best we can right now. So I thought

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Speaker 10: maybe I could share a little bit about, oh please,

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Speaker 10: how we might be able to do that.

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Speaker 8: It's almost like I feel this regulated, Like I don't

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Speaker 8: know how to say that, but I feel a little

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Speaker 8: disregulated from my sleep. Yes, and imagine you know, we

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Speaker 8: have even like our sweet beautiful Whitney on our team

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Speaker 8: and so producer, people who have experienced with violence, Like

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Speaker 8: it's very triggering also for anyone who's been a victim

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Speaker 8: of extreme violence.

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Speaker 10: So yeah, that's also a very important point because you

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Speaker 10: have people who are just seeing these images or these

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Speaker 10: videos in the news or reading an article or listening

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Speaker 10: to a news program. However, you're consuming this information, and

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Speaker 10: some of us are feeling compassion and empathy for what

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Speaker 10: is happening. Just the regular person is doing that, and

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Speaker 10: then you have people who have also experienced trauma that

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Speaker 10: is adjacent to what they're consuming in the news, which

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Speaker 10: brings it to another level. I think that if you

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Speaker 10: consume some sort of triggering, disturbing image or you know,

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Speaker 10: news story, and you find yourself experiencing a strong emotional

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Speaker 10: reaction to it, it's important first to understand that this

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Speaker 10: is normal. There's nothing wrong with you because you're having

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Speaker 10: an intense emotional response. Our brains and our bodies are

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Speaker 10: not set up to withstand the intensity and the frequency

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Speaker 10: at which all of the is coming at us. So

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Speaker 10: that's something to keep in mind, is to just practice

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Speaker 10: some self compassion around This actually means I'm a living,

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Speaker 10: breathing human being with a heart that I'm having these

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Speaker 10: strong reactions, and this actually means that I'm okay.

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Speaker 5: That's an important thing.

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Speaker 2: That's so good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Jessica, do you have any tips for managing this

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Speaker 1: triggering news? So while we're in it, are there any Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just any tips for all of the experiences you're referencing.

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Speaker 10: Yes, I can give you a few different ones, and

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Speaker 10: I just want to make a disclaimer that if you

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Speaker 10: notice that after consuming something triggering in the news, after

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Speaker 10: a few days, you're still feeling really affected by it,

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Speaker 10: or you notice that it's getting in the way of

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Speaker 10: just regular functioning in your daily life, or like we

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Speaker 10: were just talking about, it's triggering past trauma, then it's

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Speaker 10: time for you to probably seek some support by a

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Speaker 10: mental health professional, or if you already have a therapist,

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Speaker 10: just make sure that you're bringing this up in your

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Speaker 10: session with him or her and that you have a

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Speaker 10: safe space to process it and talk about it. So

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Speaker 10: that's really important. But for kind of the regular situation

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Speaker 10: that we all kind of find ourselves in with consuming

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Speaker 10: these triggering events in the news, the first, which I

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Speaker 10: already talked about, is just acknowledging your reaction. Try not

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Speaker 10: to dismiss it or minimize it or avoid it. Instead,

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Speaker 10: you want to just say to yourself, Wow, like I'm

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Speaker 10: feeling something from this, What is it? Am I angry?

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Speaker 10: Am I sad?

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Speaker 3: Am?

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Speaker 10: I having anxiety? Do I feel fear? See if you

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Speaker 10: can name what you're feeling without judgment and tell yourself

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Speaker 10: you know, it's understandable that I'm feeling this way. So

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Speaker 10: that's the first step, and then the next one, which

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Speaker 10: is really important because it's actually very empowering, is we

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Speaker 10: get to limit further exposure to these triggering images or stories.

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Speaker 10: No one is force feeding any of this to us.

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Speaker 10: We have agency in what we decide that we want

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Speaker 10: to consume.

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Speaker 2: So you have to just.

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Speaker 10: Have some self awareness and pay attention to how you're feeling.

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Speaker 10: And when you notice that you're feeling really like Stephanie said,

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Speaker 10: just regulated, you have to pay attention to that and

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Speaker 10: note that and say, Okay, I need to maybe stop

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Speaker 10: doom scrolling or once I see the scary image or

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Speaker 10: I read the scary news story, now am I looking

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Speaker 10: for similar content to consume? Like I become sort of

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Speaker 10: possessed and now I'm scrolling and seeking it out more

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Speaker 10: and more. Right, you have to touch yourself.

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Speaker 8: Doing who doesn't do that? And by the way, it's like,

438
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 8: how do you stop it if it's on the news

439
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 8: and the news is on the background, You're getting ready

440
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 8: for work or whatever, and suddenly you see it's hard

441
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 8: to unsee it.

442
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 10: Yeah, And that's I think also something that happened with

443
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 10: the Charlie Kirk murder is the minute that it happened.

444
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 10: People recorded it on their phones and then they immediately

445
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 10: post it to their TikTok or their social media and

446
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 10: within seconds, before anyone even has a chance to understand

447
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 10: fully what's happened, everyone is on their TikTok and it's

448
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 10: being fed to you, whether you want to see it

449
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 10: or not. I talked to so many people who said

450
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 10: they just opened up their TikTok and there it was,

451
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 10: the video of him being murdered, and there was no

452
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 10: protective mechanism in place for that. And that's kind of

453
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 10: where we are as a society, which is really troubling.

454
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 10: And I also think partially that's why this has resonated

455
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 10: with so many people is because it's very rare that

456
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 10: we see a video of the actual murder happening in

457
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 10: real time and it goes out to millions of people

458
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 10: all at once, like it did with him, which is

459
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 10: why I think this puts it kind of puts this

460
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 10: we're like breaking into like a new level here with.

461
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 8: Exactly we were just saying this last night. And by

462
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 8: the way, if you want to jump in eight eight

463
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 8: eight three one cry and please join the conversation. It's critical.

464
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 8: Jessica's here to answer any questions. We're so so lovely,

465
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 8: We're so grateful you are, jess because you're such a

466
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 8: calming voice. But you know, Boddy and I were talking

467
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 8: about it last week and I'm like, you know what,

468
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 8: we can just shut it down. And the truth is

469
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 8: that's not accurate. There was no shutting that down. We

470
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 8: all want, didn't E.

471
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 2: Get off guard?

472
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 8: You're right, and I actually take it back, and like

473
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 8: we were force fed information without a trigger alert. Right,

474
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 8: So even for us, all of us we see autopsy reports.

475
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 8: We were adults and we know what our job is

476
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 8: and we can sort of organize some of these things

477
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 8: in our head, and you know, there's a time that

478
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 8: we're looking at things because it's very sacred and important.

479
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 3: Right.

480
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 8: But never have I, personally in my life seen somebody

481
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 8: be killed by the way Embodi's your documentary body don't

482
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 8: f with Kats. How many times have I said this?

483
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 8: I only just wish I didn't see the very couple

484
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 8: of minutes because I've never seen that before. Now this

485
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 8: is my second It changed a little part of me

486
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,959
Speaker 8: and it's important because it you know, it triggers us

487
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 8: and it makes us feel but I don't know that

488
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 8: I like the feeling, and that is just I don't

489
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 8: know where to put it.

490
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 10: Yes, and I think part of what so I think.

491
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 10: In those moments when we feel ourselves having this visceral

492
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 10: and emotional response to something really disturbing, it's important to

493
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 10: remind ourselves that even though that happened or is happening,

494
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 10: that where we are in this moment is a safe

495
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 10: place that we are, and you need to affirm that.

496
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 10: You have to repeat it and think it to yourself

497
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 10: that I am safe, I am okay, I am here.

498
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 8: That is there.

499
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 10: If it's an image that you're seeing, whether it's an

500
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 10: image or a video, to understand that this is one

501
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 10: example at one image or one event that does not

502
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 10: represent what's likely or probable, and you have to also

503
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 10: remind yourself of that, and you can say something comforting

504
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 10: to yourself in those moments, I am safe in this moment.

505
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 10: I this feeling will pass, which is important to remind

506
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 10: yourself that any emotion that we're feeling is temporary, and

507
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 10: you ride it like a wave. You imagine that that

508
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 10: it's a wave and it's going to peak. And break

509
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 10: and dissipate, and to remind yourself that this intense emotion,

510
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 10: whether it's panic or high anxiety or a deep feeling

511
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,959
Speaker 10: of fear, that if you remind yourself that it's temporary

512
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 10: and it will subside. That also helps. I think also

513
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 10: just simply saying right now, I am okay, Right now,

514
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 10: I am okay, that is important more than anything though,

515
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 10: in these moments when you're feeling disregulated, is to ground yourself.

516
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 10: So there's this idea in psychology around grounding, which basically

517
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 10: just means if you're disregulated, if your nervous system is

518
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 10: completely out of whack, you're in this fight or flight,

519
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 10: that you need to relax your nervous system again and

520
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 10: get yourself feeling calm. So there's some breathing exercises in

521
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 10: grounding techniques that I can share with you if you'd like.

522
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 8: Woh, yeah, yes, I think we have to go to

523
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 8: break really well, so hold it, hold it, hold that

524
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 8: thought okay, But that sounds so good.

525
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: And you mentioned a larger and this will also probably

526
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: be for after the break, you know, of anxiety of dysregulation,

527
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: and maybe after the break, what if it's just deep

528
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: sadness for you know, the school shootings that seem to

529
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: happen twice, and it's just.

530
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 5: I seem to wallow. I seem I find myself walling.

531
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, just the sadness.

532
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, And I think, yeah.

533
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's hard, and I think you have to have

534
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 9: a you have to have a small amount a little

535
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 9: bit of emotional intelligence, right, Jessica, to even understand that

536
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 9: you're going through these things.

537
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 5: And that's hard to get to as well.

538
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 9: Right, So it's please forgive yourself, give yourself grace, right,

539
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 9: That's kind of what I'm hearing.

540
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 2: Give you grace.

541
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 5: Remind yourself that you're okay, and that you're safe, and

542
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 5: that you're love right, and that it's normal and it's

543
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 5: normal and you're humans.

544
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: A good thing. I'm just a good day.

545
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 9: It's a good thing that you're empathetic with this and

546
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 9: you just watched a young man, a father of two,

547
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 9: get murdered. It's okay to be upset by this. It's

548
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 9: okay to be sad about it. I think that's important.

549
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 8: Listen, Jessica Kaplan's been in this for twenty five years.

550
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 2: First, by the way, she looks like she's.

551
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 8: Twenty, but she's been in it for a bit, right, so,

552
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 8: seeing clients and really kind of probably purposefully and very

553
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 8: intentionally helping us really try to ground ourselves during these.

554
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: Very strange times.

555
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 8: And you know, we've been lamenting behind the scenes and

556
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 8: sort of in between shows of Wow, it's like the

557
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 8: air feels so thick right now and it.

558
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 5: Just feels heavy.

559
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, it feels heavy, and we get it. We just

560
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 8: witness so much and our hearts go out to the

561
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 8: Charlie Kirk family, et cetera. And then it's one after

562
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 8: the other, after the other, after or the other. It

563
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 8: just seems like there's a lot of violence in the air.

564
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 8: And one thing I noticed and just worth mentioning. Sometimes

565
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 8: I'll find myself getting like choked up in the car,

566
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 8: or like I want to weep in the car, and

567
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 8: I think the human instinct, I feel like I've learned

568
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 8: this from Jessica Kaplan instinct tells us like, well, that

569
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 8: must mean that I.

570
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: Hate how my pain answer tighter.

571
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 8: That must mean that I hate this person in my life,

572
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 8: or that must mean I have to make a change.

573
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 8: I feel so much right now that something in my

574
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 8: actual life might be really bad, when in reality, we're

575
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 8: just feeling a lot right now, and maybe we don't

576
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 8: have to assign it to something, you know.

577
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: I feel like even my girlfriend.

578
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 8: Today is like, and he did this, and he did that,

579
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 8: which was not what she was upset about. She's upset

580
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 8: that she witnessed somebody get murdered on television and didn't

581
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 8: have the tools to deal with it, and suddenly her

582
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 8: relationship was taken the hit, you know what I mean,

583
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 8: Like we display some of our anxiety or our feelings

584
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 8: of dysregulation. I think, as it has, it has to

585
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 8: go somewhere, and if you know, you don't get to

586
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 8: the gym, or I mean, who gets to the gym,

587
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 8: I'm not one of them.

588
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 10: Of an analogy I use sometimes with my clients who

589
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 10: have pushed their feelings down and they're trying to avoid

590
00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 10: their feelings exactly they're guilty. They're guilty oftentimes comes with

591
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 10: a fear of how painful it really would be to

592
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 10: allow your law emotion to come up. That we almost

593
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 10: feel like we wouldn't be able to survive it because

594
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 10: it's just so painful and uncomfortable, so we push it down.

595
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 10: But what happens is kind of like when you're in

596
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 10: the pool with a beach ball and you try to

597
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 10: push the beach ball into the water. What happens like

598
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 10: you push it down in front of you, and then

599
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 10: it pops up behind you.

600
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: Know.

601
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 10: So that's the same thing with emotions that we don't

602
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 10: allow ourselves to feel and process, is we push them

603
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 10: down and then they pop up in another area of

604
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 10: our life in a different way, and we don't necessarily

605
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 10: make the connection. But it's part of not feeling and

606
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 10: not processing it. At some point, it's going to pop

607
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 10: up in some area of your life and read havoc

608
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 10: in that area if you don't confronted and deal with

609
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 10: it if you can in real time. And the beautiful

610
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 10: thing about the human experiences, we really can handle these intense,

611
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 10: big emotions. We are built to handle these intense, big emotions.

612
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 10: And sometimes just talking about how you're feeling, whether it's

613
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 10: with a mental health professional or with your friend or

614
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 10: with a family member, just saying the words out loud

615
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 10: often hunt sometimes just takes away the intensity of the emotion.

616
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 10: When we're in our head all the time and we're

617
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 10: thinking but not sharing the intensity of what we're thinking

618
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 10: and feeling built so we just need a little it's

619
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 10: an outlet. So finding someone that you trust to just

620
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 10: share your thoughts and feelings with is a great place

621
00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 10: to start. But if you are allowing yourself to feel

622
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 10: and process some of these difficult emotions and you are

623
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 10: feeling that the intensity is overwhelming you, that are grounding

624
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 10: techniques that you cant and so the idea with that

625
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 10: is to calm your nervous system, bring yourself back into

626
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,959
Speaker 10: your body and into the present moment. That's the goal

627
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 10: because when we're panicked, we are not in our bodies.

628
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 10: We are we're not in the present moment, and we're

629
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 10: in our head and our thoughts are triggering the cycle

630
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 10: of panic. So if you can figure out ways to

631
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 10: get yourself back in your body in the present moment,

632
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 10: it helps reduce those feelings of anxiety and panic. So

633
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 10: the idea is to try and do things that make

634
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:54,479
Speaker 10: you feel sensations again, so quick easy ones are maybe

635
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 10: heard of. Some of these where if you have the

636
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 10: ability to just walk out your front door in your

637
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 10: bare feet and walk walk through a little bit of

638
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 10: grass in your yard, the feeling of the grass on

639
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 10: your feet, paying attention to that feeling is a grounding technique.

640
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 10: Splashing cold water on your face. Grabbing some ice out

641
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 10: of the ice tray in your freezer and just sucking

642
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 10: on a cube of ice will do that. Making yourself

643
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 10: a hot cup of tea and holding the hot mug

644
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 10: and feeling that the heat of the mug on your

645
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 10: hands also can bring you back into feeling physical sensation

646
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,919
Speaker 10: and being in your body again. Do I have time

647
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 10: to just quickly explain one that's a little more.

648
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 3: So.

649
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 10: This is the five four three two one grounding technique.

650
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 10: So if you're feeling disregulated, and for some people who

651
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 10: really have experienced trauma in the past, and maybe some

652
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 10: of these images in the news, these news stories are

653
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 10: triggering past trauma, a little bit of the association can

654
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 10: start to happen, where the intensity of the emotion is

655
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 10: so strong that that people feel like they can't cope

656
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 10: or handle it, so they almost start to leave their

657
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 10: bodies right there. It's sort of like where you're no

658
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 10: longer in the room, or sometimes you can sort of

659
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 10: feel like you're outside yourself looking at yourself. In these moments,

660
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 10: it's really important to come to a grounding technique. So

661
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 10: this one is you just sit comfortably, you take a

662
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 10: deep breath and you're going to use your senses to

663
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 10: bring you back into your body and back into noticing

664
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 10: your environment. So the first one five is see, and

665
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 10: you're going to look around the room and you're just

666
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 10: going to name out loud five things that you see.

667
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 10: So for me, it's a coffee cup, my laptop, my hands,

668
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 10: the lamp, the painting on the wall. It's pretty self explanatory.

669
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 10: Take a moment to notice each one. Then you move

670
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 10: to four, which is feel, So you want to notice

671
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 10: four things that you can physically feel. I can feel

672
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 10: my feet on the floor, I can feel the texture

673
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 10: of my sweatshirt, I can feel the phone in my hand,

674
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 10: I can feel the air on my face, and you

675
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 10: want to just feel them one by one slowly. Then

676
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 10: you move to three, which is here listen carefully and

677
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 10: name three things that you can hear, and maybe you

678
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 10: can even tune in and try to notice sounds that

679
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 10: you typically tune out. So maybe it's a bird out

680
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 10: the window, or the hum of your laptop, a car

681
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 10: passing on the street, the hum of a light or

682
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 10: a fan, something like that. Then you move to two,

683
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 10: which is smell. Name two things you can smell if

684
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 10: in this moment you can't smell anything with my art

685
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 10: common Yeah, you can also just recall two smells that

686
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 10: you enjoy. So maybe it's when you're you know you're

687
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 10: morning coffee is brewing, or your favor apple spread bag,

688
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 10: apple pie flowers, and then number and then you move

689
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 10: to number one, which is taste. If you have a

690
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 10: drink or some candy or mint or a snack nearby,

691
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 10: take up a bite or a sip of that and

692
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 10: notice how it tastes. If you don't have something nearby,

693
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 10: maybe there's an aftertaste of gum or mint or a

694
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 10: sip of coffee, So hopefully you'll be able to taste

695
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 10: something that's one. When you're done with all of that,

696
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 10: you take a couple slow, deep breaths and hopefully at

697
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 10: that moment, you now have spent two or three minutes

698
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 10: using your senses to bring you back into your body

699
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 10: and into the room and to get out of your head.

700
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 10: I mean, that's that's really what this is about. Is

701
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 10: you want to get get out of the loops in

702
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 10: your head that are that are causing the distress.

703
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: I have to say, Jessica, I am so happy that

704
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: you said that out loud. All of the steps for

705
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: everyone listening. I can attest that is absolutely something that

706
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 1: I use and at least for me personally, it absolutely works.

707
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 2: Just by the time.

708
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 1: It's not something I do every day, but when I

709
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: need to, as you said, just calm it down and

710
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: just going through that.

711
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 2: And it is. It is powerful. It's unbelievable. You're very

712
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: good about this.

713
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 8: Just to call you out in terms of really you

714
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 8: have great self care in this. You meditate every day, really,

715
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 8: you legitimately do. That is not just something you say

716
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,240
Speaker 8: you do like seven days a week. That is something

717
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,720
Speaker 8: that you have really incorporated into your daily life.

718
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 2: And it's really inspiring.

719
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 8: And you know, if you have any tips on that too,

720
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 8: because I feel like I want to, but I don't.

721
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 2: I'm saying, yeah, Jessica, what are you?

722
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 10: I was just going to say, I think that, first

723
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 10: of all, meditation is probably one of the best things.

724
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 10: It's scientifically back that if you meditate, you will experience

725
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 10: reduce symptoms of depression and anxiety almost immediately. And the

726
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 10: beautiful thing about meditation, because it can feel really intimidating

727
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 10: for a lot of people, I don't even know where

728
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:34,240
Speaker 10: to begin me too, Meditation really can be one minute

729
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 10: you're in your car, you're at a red light, and

730
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 10: for the length of the red light, you are taking

731
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:47,319
Speaker 10: some deep breaths and noticing how it feels in your

732
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 10: body for the thirty seconds that you're at the red light,

733
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 10: that is considered meditation. Meditation is, and it can be

734
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 10: one minute, it can be five minutes, it can be

735
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 10: twenty minutes. There's still really a major impact on the

736
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 10: brain and the nervous system to do so. And for

737
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 10: some people, they really like to do a mindfulness meditation

738
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 10: where they're listening to a script and they have somebody

739
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 10: else leading them through a little bit of a narrative.

740
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 10: Other people like to just do slow, deep breathing and

741
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 10: pay attention to sensations in their body. That is also

742
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 10: considered meditation. Some people like to do a moving meditation,

743
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 10: which for a lot of people, they'll say that ram

744
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 10: yoga is a moving meditation because you're doing the same

745
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 10: poses every time you go, so you can sort of

746
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,720
Speaker 10: get comfortable with just going into a zone and clearing

747
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 10: your mind and just being in your body. And there

748
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,720
Speaker 10: are such things as meditation walks where you just literally

749
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 10: walk out your door and you're not listening sarri to

750
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 10: any podcasts.

751
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 2: I'm taken. Yeah, yeah, she didn't mean that.

752
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 10: You're just listening to the sounds of nature and noticing

753
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 10: what you're seeing along your walk and noticing your breathing,

754
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 10: noticing how you're feeling. That's considered meditation too, so it

755
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 10: comes in all shapes and sizes and has a benefit

756
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 10: whichever one resonates with you.

757
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 8: By the way, even just hearing your voice, Am I

758
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 8: not alone in this? Like your voice is so like yeah,

759
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 8: it's really just like you're the way she speaks right,

760
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 8: Like I feel calmer here, Jessica Kaplan.

761
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, the cadence of it.

762
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 5: I'm hypnotized, and that when I go to.

763
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 8: Yoga, and when I'm in yoga and I have done

764
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 8: Bickram's yoga, the entire time, I am planning my exit, like.

765
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: Literally the entire time.

766
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 8: I'm like so after this, no, everybody's eyes will be

767
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 8: shut and I am OUTI the entire time. And I

768
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 8: know that's opposite land And for me, reality TV is

769
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 8: a kind of distraction because it makes nice settle my

770
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 8: mind in a weird way.

771
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 7: I have that trouble meditating. I can't like my mind

772
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 7: is still racing about things that are going on or

773
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 7: what I see me do that day. I can't to.

774
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 5: Figure it out.

775
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 10: That's okay, and that's okay, taha. It's okay that you

776
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 10: notice that your mind is racing. And another important part

777
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 10: of meditation is to not judge yourself as you're trying

778
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 10: to meditate, which means you so anytime you're trying to

779
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 10: quiet your mind and suddenly like you're thinking about your

780
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 10: shopping grocery, shopping list or whatever. Yes, all you do

781
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 10: is you just acknowledge it. Oh, there I go. And

782
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 10: then you come back to your breath or you come

783
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 10: back to feelings in your body, and you might have

784
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 10: to do that twenty times in a two minute meditation,

785
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 10: but that's okay, okay.

786
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: And two minutes is enough. I never even thought of

787
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 2: the red light.

788
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 8: I mean that to me seems very doable on a

789
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 8: regular basis and not intimidating.

790
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, honestly, we literally cannot thank you enough. I think

791
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: all of us are calmer. All's week For myself. Your

792
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: tips were applicable and they are so necessary and you

793
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: are wonderful.

794
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 2: So Jessica kaplan.

795
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 1: Absolutely and pleasure if anybody wants to learn more about

796
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,320
Speaker 1: Jessica's practice. I urge you to find her via her website.

797
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: She is at Jessica Kaplan with a K Jessica Kaplantherapy

798
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,399
Speaker 1: dot com. And you just heard how wonderful and actionable

799
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: her advice is.

800
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 2: We are better for it now.

801
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 1: So thanks again and listen stick with us, because coming

802
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: up we have the president of the US Marshals Museum

803
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: joining us. He's going to talk about all the most

804
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: infamous manhunts, from Travis Decker to the Beltway Sniper.

805
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 2: We have that more true crime tonight. We love you, jess.

806
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 8: Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We are

807
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 8: talking true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with

808
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 8: Courtney and Body, and I am feeling much more relaxed

809
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 8: after our marriage and family therapist Jessica Kaplan put us

810
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 8: all back in check. If you missed any of the

811
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 8: first hour, please check it out as a podcast later

812
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 8: and listen. We're trying to come up with some tools

813
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,720
Speaker 8: to kind of ground ourselves during this very cloudy time

814
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 8: and find the light through it. And I feel like

815
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 8: Jessica Kaplan really she really did the trick on that,

816
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 8: so woof.

817
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: I feel so much better. I do grounded. Grounded.

818
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 8: Guess that's a great word. And yeah, like more of

819
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 8: that to come, by the way. If you have any

820
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 8: tips or tricks or things that are working for you

821
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 8: in your personal life, let us know, because we're kind

822
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 8: of you know, we're all evolving and learning this together.

823
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 8: And you swap your tricks and we'll swap ours. Yeah,

824
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 8: we're also going to share call us because we have

825
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 8: to share.

826
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: Sharing is the answer. Eight eight eight three one crime.

827
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: There was actually one thing I want to say, And

828
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: we were talking off the air, all of us, with

829
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 1: Jessica Kaplan, who is so wonderful.

830
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 2: There's a free website.

831
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 1: It's just self Compassion with a hyphen in the middle

832
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: self hyphencompassion dot org and you can go there and listen.

833
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: There are free practices you can listen to. I think

834
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 1: one is two minutes. There's one that's five minutes, and

835
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: it's just a self compassion and it's a guided thing

836
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: for five minutes of your life. But I will do it.

837
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: I reach for it when I am spinning. I don't

838
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: know if any of you will find yourself just feeling frenetic,

839
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: feeling mad at the world.

840
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 8: I thought you were saying spin class, and I was like,

841
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,720
Speaker 8: I will not find myself there.

842
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, spinning in my head.

843
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 8: Taha, it's spin class, spin in my head.

844
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'll sometimes just cry in my car and not.

845
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,839
Speaker 8: Know why I cry, but the shower or a good

846
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 8: airplane cry.

847
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:09,760
Speaker 2: Oh are you guys airplane criers?

848
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 5: I never cried on an airplane?

849
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 2: What really am I alone in this? Okay? So interesting,

850
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 2: funny enough.

851
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 8: I always assumed it was the altitude, but for some reason,

852
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 8: and you know, I'm the I'm pretty cheery, just like DNA,

853
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 8: just born that way despite circumstance. But on a plane,

854
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 8: sometimes I get weepy and the plane will take off

855
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 8: and I'll watch it a little any movie, any movie,

856
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:38,879
Speaker 8: especially in rock com and it.

857
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 2: Is like like I could feel it's starting, and like.

858
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:45,720
Speaker 8: The person next to me will like hand me their napkin,

859
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 8: like literally, And it's not for a reason, but I

860
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 8: think it's just a release, like.

861
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 2: Sometimes we just hear so many hard things.

862
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: Do you know what I actually I take it back

863
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 1: when I was surprised, Yes, I have one hundred percent.

864
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: I remember I am about to see Maureen Smith from

865
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: my high school reunion.

866
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we have flown.

867
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: All over the World and watching a silly movie Waking

868
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: Ned Divine. Oh, a good airplane movie. It's a great

869
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: airplane movie. But yes, I think, honestly it might be

870
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 1: it's the release because you can't do anything. Yeah, you

871
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: can't busy yourself, you cannot distract yourself. You are sitting

872
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: with yourself on an airplane. So maybe that's it, like

873
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:24,760
Speaker 1: the shower.

874
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there has to be something to the altitude.

875
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 2: I am curious for anyone of those science do it.

876
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 2: But like I watched Me Joe Black and barely recovered.

877
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 2: I was like, ah, like sobbing, like sobbing that movie.

878
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 8: Yeah, And I wasn't like going to a funeral. I

879
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 8: was actually going on a joy ride and I was

880
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 8: in a very wonderful happy place, going to a very

881
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 8: happy place, but just sob the whole way. And then

882
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 8: I left the plane and was like it's on and

883
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 8: like I felt so much better. And I did one

884
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 8: time learn that sometimes tears have like a scientific like

885
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 8: it's good to get them out, because there's almost like

886
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 8: a science to tears that they're I correct me if

887
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 8: I'm wrong here, but this was really told to me

888
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 8: that like if you.

889
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 2: Store them in, it could be really toxic in your body.

890
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 7: I'm sure it just releases in general, but yeah, I've

891
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 7: had that. You has seen that. So but these stories

892
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 7: like have impacted me so much, and I found myself

893
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:16,959
Speaker 7: like crying over things.

894
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 2: I'm like, what is this like?

895
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 7: I don't really I normally hold myself together in such

896
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 7: a normal way. But anyway, but yeah, it's good to

897
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 7: know that there's a release and whatever just just talk

898
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 7: to us about has helped me already in these few minutes.

899
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 1: Yes, and tears. They contain hormones, so yeah, yeah, I

900
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: mean it releases stress hormones, it releases oxytocin, it releases dopamine.

901
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 5: That's why I always feel better.

902
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

903
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 8: And by the way, a little like play along tip,

904
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 8: if you're ever feeling like lost in the sauce in

905
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 8: your head for no real reason before you assign a

906
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 8: reason to it, go to a movie and have a

907
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 8: good cry. Allow yourself create the opportunity for the good cry.

908
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 8: Get that at it's exhausting, and you'll be disgusting and

909
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,399
Speaker 8: sleep it off, and then the next day it you'll

910
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 8: really be surprised, like maybe the dust has settled, because

911
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 8: sometimes it's not yours. It's just the sadness the whole

912
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 8: day is real. Yeah, yeah, and it's beautiful in the

913
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 8: same way.

914
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 2: It's like we're all connected.

915
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:22,919
Speaker 8: So h well, you know, thank you for a better

916
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 8: time to talk about Epstein. But let's do it, Courtney,

917
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 8: what do we think about Epstein? Are these files about

918
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 8: to get pushed out the.

919
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 2: Door or what?

920
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: Well, well, well, a discharge petition it is now set

921
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: to reach the magic two hundred and eighteen signatures, which

922
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 1: would force a very rare House floor vote, and that

923
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 1: would compel the Justice Department to release all of the

924
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: federal files on Jeffrey Epstein.

925
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,800
Speaker 2: So yeah, this magic number.

926
00:51:55,800 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: And of course Jeffrey Epstein, he's a wealthy financier. He

927
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: was convicted of sex offenses involving minors. He died by

928
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 1: quote suicide that is the actual cause of death, the

929
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:12,320
Speaker 1: official cause of death in twenty nineteen. And his longtime

930
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: associate Gilaene Maxwell also was sort of his second in

931
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: command in this sex trafficking ring, and she was convicted

932
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 1: and is serving a twenty year sentence. So what's happening

933
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: is excuse my pronunciation, Adalita Grahalva. Right, she is replacing

934
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: her father, the late Raoul Gahava, after she won a

935
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 1: special election for her Arizona district, and she has vowed

936
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 1: to sign this petition as soon as she's sworn in.

937
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 1: What this does, if the numbers are what they appeared

938
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 1: to be, it guarantees a House floor vote on the

939
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 1: demand for the full DOJ disclosure.

940
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 2: Of the files I have.

941
00:52:58,000 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: Now.

942
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think that assumes everybody the way they voted

943
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 9: last time, right.

944
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 1: That's what I said, if the number is to stay

945
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: as they appear to be, because they.

946
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 2: Can absolutely change when you know, because I.

947
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 9: Feel like sometimes they vote knowing it's going to fail.

948
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 9: That way, they could be like, well at least days.

949
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,439
Speaker 2: Right, you know what I mean. Soft.

950
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 9: So I'm just kind of I just listen. I don't

951
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 9: trust anybody anymore, you know what I mean. I just

952
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:24,760
Speaker 9: don't trust any.

953
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 8: Of them, and like, so it's so upsetting it. I

954
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 8: want to I want to trust everybody. I do too,

955
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 8: and I know you do.

956
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 2: I all do.

957
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 8: And I guess that's what's so frustrating about it. I'm

958
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 8: going to keep saying it. By the way, I think

959
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 8: I said I thought Diddy was going to get his

960
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 8: sentence tomorrow. I also thought tomorrow was October first, So

961
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 8: I think you just.

962
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:49,399
Speaker 2: Got six days of your life. Stephanie congratua like I'm

963
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 2: missing a week. But soon. I still think it could tomorrow.

964
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 2: It could be the Friday.

965
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 8: Thing I was doubling down on. Maybe next Friday, maybe

966
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,879
Speaker 8: Epstein thing too. I think the world is very busy

967
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 8: right now, and I do think there's action behind the

968
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 8: scenes to either keep these files from coming out soon

969
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 8: soon soon, or to get these files out soon soon soon.

970
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 8: I do think everything is in play right now.

971
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

972
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,760
Speaker 1: Well, listen, we will keep you updated as information comes,

973
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 1: and it's coming out quite a bit. And listen, this

974
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: is true crime tonight. We want to hear from you.

975
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 1: We're just talking about Epstein. We just have Jessica Kaplan

976
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: on marriage and family counselor, who was giving us tips

977
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: on how to deal with the grief of everything in

978
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:35,800
Speaker 1: the news, and we want to hear.

979
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 2: How are you doing and what are your tips?

980
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,240
Speaker 1: Eight at eight three one Crime And in the meantime, body,

981
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: what's our next headline?

982
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 9: Well, Barry Morphew, do you guys remember Barry Morphew. Of course,

983
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 9: he is the accused murderer of his wife, Suzanne morphew.

984
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 9: And you know he was arrested in twenty twenty I

985
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 9: think I'm twenty twenty, and released in twenty twenty one one,

986
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 9: and then re arrested this year, and guess what, he's

987
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 9: been released again.

988
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 2: So go ahead.

989
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 9: You were ready to snap, ready to snatch it, just

990
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 9: to see it.

991
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:13,919
Speaker 8: Though, he is accused of murdering his wife on Mother's Day.

992
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 8: Her body was found and it was assumed that she

993
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 8: was sort of snatched from her bicycle, even though her

994
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 8: bicycle was found, and when her body was discovered, it

995
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 8: appears it had been removed and then placed and somehow redressed.

996
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 2: Is that accurate?

997
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 8: Yes, Yes, that's that's exactly what we were talking about.

998
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 2: A cob I mean.

999
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:42,759
Speaker 9: Yes, kids exactly dismissing right, there's a lot of Shenanigan's

1000
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 9: happening with poor Suzanne. Okay, yes, And there was a

1001
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 9: three million dollar bond. Uh and he posted three hundred

1002
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 9: thousand dollars. Now where did he get three? Where did

1003
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 9: he gives a lot? There's a lot of chatter, this

1004
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 9: is unsubstantiated, that he supporters Again, there's a lot of

1005
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 9: people out there that support these kinds of people.

1006
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 5: It was about ad nausey.

1007
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 11: We've talked about this a lot, right, Wait, they love

1008
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 11: Barry because they think Barry's a real catch. And they

1009
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 11: said they think he's innocent and being you know, accused

1010
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 11: of a crime he didn't commit. You know, every I

1011
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 11: feel like every defendant, especially those that kill women. Let's

1012
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 11: be let's be honest, all right, they have supporters and

1013
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 11: you know, I mean people.

1014
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 5: Go to prison like Richard and Meiers.

1015
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 9: He goes to eat the Nights Talker, he goes to

1016
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 9: prison and he gets all these women, you know, yes,

1017
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:36,399
Speaker 9: and gets married and you know, there's this happens, and

1018
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 9: so there's chatter that there his supporters raise the money.

1019
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 9: Now I don't know if that's true or not, but

1020
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 9: it's it's unsubstantiated chatter.

1021
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 5: But it's a lot of chatter.

1022
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 1: It's so interesting and it is so dark and what

1023
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 1: would drive you, I mean, is the rationale, Well, he

1024
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 1: was married once, he knows how to commit.

1025
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 2: Like, I don't know what the thought.

1026
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1027
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 1: We've spoken to other therapists about hypristopher hybristophilia.

1028
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 8: By the way, weren't we going to have someone on

1029
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:05,880
Speaker 8: from the show Love After Lock Up?

1030
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 2: Not to rail but like that's a later day down

1031
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 2: the road. But I'm dying to talk more.

1032
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:13,480
Speaker 5: Oh oh next week, Oh next week.

1033
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 8: Interesting because that's a show about as a TV show

1034
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 8: about that anyway back to it, I can't believe what

1035
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 8: I'm hearing, right.

1036
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 9: So that's what's going on with Barry, and now he

1037
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 9: has to stay. He's kind of like on house arrest.

1038
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 9: It's not like he's free to gallivant, you know, across

1039
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 9: the country. But I mean, let's be real, he kind

1040
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 9: of is a flight risk because after he was released

1041
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:37,919
Speaker 9: in twenty twenty one, he like left and went to Arizona, right,

1042
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 9: and was, you know, kind of living an assumed.

1043
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 5: Name down there. That's right, Yeah, you imagine.

1044
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 9: I know he was hitting on those women at the bar,

1045
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 9: and he gave him different names. He had like a

1046
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 9: couple of different names. The neighbors knew him by one name,

1047
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 9: the girls at the bar knew him by another. So

1048
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 9: it's almost like he's hiding in plain sight, right and

1049
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,439
Speaker 9: made trying to find a new woman to latch onto.

1050
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 9: But in this in this scenario, he is under strict

1051
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 9: house arrest with an ankle monitor, and he must surrender

1052
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 9: his passport and abstain from drugs and alcohol, so he

1053
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 9: won't be at the bar dancing with the women this

1054
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,439
Speaker 9: time around, like he was.

1055
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 8: Isn't the other big ticket item here? Correct me if

1056
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 8: I'm wrong? Didn't he like there was like tranquilizers involved

1057
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 8: him directly?

1058
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 5: Correct?

1059
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 9: So when he lived in Indiana, when they lived in Indiana,

1060
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 9: Susannah Barry, you know, raising their kids and beautiful cerilary marriage. Right,

1061
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 9: he kind of operated a deer farm and then when

1062
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 9: he moved to Colorado kind of you know, brought some

1063
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 9: of that over to Colorado, and he was I think

1064
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 9: he I think he was the only person in this

1065
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 9: area of Colorado to be licensed to have this deer tranquilizer.

1066
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 3: Correct.

1067
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 9: And when they found Barry, right, when they found Suzanne, uh, finally,

1068
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 9: you know, after years they did, you know, there was

1069
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,439
Speaker 9: only so many ways to determine what happened to her, right,

1070
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 9: And one of the things they did was they tested

1071
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 9: her bone marrow and it had this deer train in

1072
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 9: her system, so she was you know kind of.

1073
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 1: And didn't Also they find investigators find in their washing

1074
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: machine and Barry Morpheus washing machine sort of the cap

1075
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 1: of the injectable.

1076
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 8: Oh, I'm feeling anxious again and mad. Yes, I feel angry.

1077
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 8: I see the lamp, I see.

1078
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 2: The door knob.

1079
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, but like, honestly, like that is bananas to me.

1080
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 8: And by the way, they had the loveliest children, and

1081
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 8: the daughters have been standing by him.

1082
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:41,960
Speaker 5: Yeah they have, They really have.

1083
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 9: And you know they're often photographed together leaving court and

1084
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 9: things like that. But no, Barrie's the prosecutors and law enforcement.

1085
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 9: They remain committed to pursuing justice in this regardless of

1086
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 9: him being in jail or not in jail, like, they're

1087
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 9: committed to seeing this through this time. His next court

1088
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 9: status conference is sket November third, so we'll be following

1089
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 9: it up on that date. We already have it on

1090
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 9: the calendar ready to go. I am anxious to find

1091
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 9: out what's going to happen. And remember she went missing

1092
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 9: maybe on Mother's Day of twenty twenty, and she was

1093
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 9: having an affair with an old high school sweetheart and

1094
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 9: Barry found out and he was kind of enraged. And

1095
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 9: this is kind of seems to be the motive, like

1096
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 9: almost like a if I can't ever, nobody can nobody

1097
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:29,640
Speaker 9: in a situation, right, And he was often very jealous

1098
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 9: and whatnot. In the text messages which we all you

1099
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 9: have seen many times, really show like this kind of

1100
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 9: like domineering guy who wouldn't even let Susan breathe. You know,

1101
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 9: she didn't really have anything but him, that's what he wanted.

1102
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 9: So we're going to see what happens. But you know,

1103
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 9: there's an also in the autopsy. This is important. They

1104
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 9: didn't really find any external trauma. They only found that

1105
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 9: trenk So we really don't even know the cause of

1106
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 9: her get that's how that her oh wow, body was right.

1107
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 9: They don't even know really what happened. They just found

1108
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 9: this tranquilizer.

1109
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 2: I didn't realize that.

1110
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean a lot of people think that maybe

1111
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 9: she was buried alive. You know, it's just it's it's

1112
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 9: a terrible thought. I don't think that's what happened. But

1113
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 9: I just think her body was in such a state

1114
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 9: that they couldn't really tell.

1115
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 2: I feel for the kids. Children I hear to put

1116
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 2: in the worst spot ever.

1117
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 5: I know, it's just awful. I mean, what do you

1118
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 5: do in that situation?

1119
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 9: But keep up, you know, coming up, we're going to

1120
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,959
Speaker 9: have the President of the US Marshalls me a hero

1121
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 9: joining us to uncover the Marshal's hidden role in America's

1122
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 9: most infamous man hunts.

1123
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 5: Keep it right here, True Crime Tonight.

1124
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 2: What a night it has been. Again.

1125
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 8: If you've missed any of the show, please check it

1126
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 8: out as a podcast, and if you want to join

1127
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 8: the show live right now, please do eight to Day,

1128
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 8: three to one Crime. We really want to hear from

1129
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 8: you because we are celebrating the US Marshal. Yes, so Ben, Yes,

1130
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 8: we are really highlighting great heroes and Ben, you being

1131
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 8: one of them.

1132
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 2: So Courtney, get us started. All right.

1133
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 1: We are lucky enough to have Ben Johnson. He is

1134
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 1: President and CEO of the US Marshall's Museum. Ben is

1135
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,360
Speaker 1: leading the charge at this brand new museum. It is

1136
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 1: in Fort Smith, Arkansas, and it opened just last year.

1137
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: So this museum which ps my husband can't wait to

1138
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: go to and I can't wait to join him. This

1139
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 1: museum preserves the history of America's oldest federal law enforcement agency,

1140
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: the Marshals, and it has landmark cases and trailblazers who

1141
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 1: were Marshals, interactive exhibits. So Ben is here to tell

1142
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 1: us about this museum and the Marshall's role in some

1143
01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 1: of the biggest cases in literal history and why the

1144
01:02:57,280 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 1: work matters.

1145
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 2: Ben, welcome back and.

1146
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, thank you so much for having me.

1147
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 8: You know, it's funny, like it's so prevalent right now

1148
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 8: and in the news with Travis Decker, et cetera, and

1149
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 8: just looking through all of the big, huge cases, you know,

1150
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 8: Andrew Cunanan, I mean, there's so there's so many that

1151
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 8: we're hoping the DC Sniper like, we want to have

1152
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:22,280
Speaker 8: you back as regularly as possible to tell these heroic

1153
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 8: tales because.

1154
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:25,840
Speaker 2: You know, it's a real it's an honor.

1155
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great, and you know, for for most everybody,

1156
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 3: the Marshalls is the most important agency. They've really never

1157
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 3: heard of.

1158
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 12: Or if they have heard of it, it's the Old

1159
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 12: West movies or something like that.

1160
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 3: So to be in the oldest uh, well, they like

1161
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 3: to be called the first, the first federal law enforce.

1162
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: This.

1163
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they really, you know, not a lot of

1164
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 3: people having a full appreciation of what they've done over

1165
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:53,480
Speaker 3: the last two hundred and thirty six years. So it's

1166
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 3: my job to get out there and tell their story.

1167
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 3: And thank you for giving me the opportunity to do it.

1168
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 8: Maybe even just there like the US Marshall. Why is

1169
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 8: that the case that we know maybe less about the

1170
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 8: US Marshall and question all you're doing.

1171
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a lot of it goes back. You know,

1172
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,479
Speaker 3: they've been around since seventeen eighty nine. They're the one

1173
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 3: federal law enforcement agency that is legitimately in the Constitution

1174
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 3: of the United States, and so you know, they have

1175
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 3: been bounced around in a lot of ways, somewhat pejoratively,

1176
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 3: they've been called the other duties agencies. So although they

1177
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 3: had them very clear constitutional directives of what they were

1178
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 3: supposed to do, they do get tasked, well, who's going

1179
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:39,480
Speaker 3: to do that? Well, let's send the marshals over to

1180
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 3: do that. So you know, they really have flown under

1181
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 3: the radar. They don't like being the center of attention.

1182
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 3: They do their job, they do what they're tasked to do,

1183
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 3: and they try to stay out of the way. And

1184
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 3: you know that has served them well for over two centuries.

1185
01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 3: But you know, in an age of twenty four to

1186
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 3: seven news and podcasts and social media, not being out

1187
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 3: there front and center that does, you know, potentially have

1188
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 3: a negative impact. But they are everywhere. The Martial Service

1189
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 3: is literally everywhere they're involved in every major scenario in

1190
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 3: American history since seventeen eighty nine, and really there's no

1191
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 3: it's just it's it's an amazing story. And I actually

1192
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:30,960
Speaker 3: spent the week with the Marshall Service Association Annual conference

1193
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 3: and getting to just sit and talk with some of

1194
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 3: those retired deputies and senior leaders and just hear about

1195
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 3: the decades of experience they have. It's just remarkable, and

1196
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:42,360
Speaker 3: you know, they are worthy of all the praise that

1197
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:44,360
Speaker 3: we can heap on them.

1198
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 2: I would have gone amazing, Oh my goodness.

1199
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:48,560
Speaker 5: I would agree with that.

1200
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,440
Speaker 9: So beyond the man hunts, we hear about the Marshalls

1201
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 9: handle fugitive apprehension, right witness protection, prisoner transport, and enforcing

1202
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,440
Speaker 9: federal court orders. To those responsibilities do you think surprise

1203
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 9: people the most.

1204
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 3: I think it's a combination of all of it. You know,

1205
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:12,880
Speaker 3: from the very beginning, traditional security, protecting judges, protecting witnesses,

1206
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:15,600
Speaker 3: that was always one of the core duties. And particularly

1207
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 3: you know, protecting court houses federal property. That's still a

1208
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 3: big thing of what they do. But I think the

1209
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 3: investigative part and even the witness security part, I mean

1210
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 3: everyone's heard of the you know Air quotes Witness Protection

1211
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 3: Program and you know you want to be you know,

1212
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 3: we're going to pick you up and stick you in

1213
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 3: the middle of Idaho or something. And so nothing against Idaho,

1214
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 3: don't I don't want to get emails, no, no, no no.

1215
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 3: But I think the critical thing that folks are most

1216
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 3: surprised about is just the depth of what they have done,

1217
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 3: and that you know, from the civil rights movement to

1218
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 3: the present day, you know, they really have had to

1219
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 3: handle a lot of things. So the Witness Security Program

1220
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 3: is one that I would love to go into some

1221
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 3: great detail with you on game. Yeah. Here's the problem though,

1222
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 3: they won't tell us anything.

1223
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 12: So even the key thing about WITSEC is that nobody

1224
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 12: talks about with sc and it works really really well

1225
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:20,400
Speaker 12: for a reason.

1226
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,600
Speaker 3: And so although we we do plan on, you know,

1227
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 3: having having some some additional resources where we can talk

1228
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 3: about the history of it. It's really a remarkable program

1229
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 3: that has evolved over the last thirty or forty years

1230
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 3: into into a highly organized and professional deal where nobody

1231
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 3: that follows the rules of the program has ever been harmed.

1232
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 3: It's the people who go out here to the bounds

1233
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 3: of the program. And so you do what they tell

1234
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 3: you to do. Uh, you're fine. It's the you know

1235
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 3: what we hear about it is through you know, Henry

1236
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 3: Hill's book or the movie Fellows, things.

1237
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:04,200
Speaker 12: Like that's how you kind of figure out that, you know,

1238
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 12: Sam it all has.

1239
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:09,600
Speaker 2: A TikTok, Sammy the bull is ektok? What are the

1240
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 2: rules to witness protection?

1241
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:13,360
Speaker 8: Because you are a singing my song right now?

1242
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 2: Like I have never really thought about it.

1243
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 8: But if you were like, oh, they're in witness protection,

1244
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:18,880
Speaker 8: I'm like, what does that mean?

1245
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:21,320
Speaker 2: Do they have a fake name? Is it just did

1246
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 2: they have to have a whole pretend life? What if

1247
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,600
Speaker 2: you're not? I have the worst poker.

1248
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 8: Face, Like I wouldn't be able to actually absorb the

1249
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 8: identity correct.

1250
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:35,759
Speaker 9: We would be out of witness and breaking the rules.

1251
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 8: Would that's a lamp, that's a tree doing our meditations?

1252
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:42,360
Speaker 2: But like, what do we do?

1253
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:47,599
Speaker 9: So it is a hundred success rate when they follow

1254
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:50,640
Speaker 9: the rules. That is really impressive, and.

1255
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:55,760
Speaker 3: It's propressive, it is, and it's pretty it's pretty wild.

1256
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:57,680
Speaker 13: When you really think about it.

1257
01:08:57,240 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 3: For as long as they've done it and did not

1258
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 3: have anybody harmed, and and most of them that come

1259
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 3: out of it, the people that they were testifying against

1260
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:08,360
Speaker 3: or that they were a fear for their life are

1261
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 3: either in prison or deceased. And so that's why you

1262
01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 3: have the folks coming out and talking about it and

1263
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:17,960
Speaker 3: and being open is because they don't have to be

1264
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:22,000
Speaker 3: afraid anymore. It's really good And at some point I

1265
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:24,200
Speaker 3: do hope to be able to tell you some more stories,

1266
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:26,479
Speaker 3: but every time I ask about it, I've even been

1267
01:09:26,520 --> 01:09:31,360
Speaker 3: to the floor at head quarters that witness security is

1268
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:34,280
Speaker 3: on and you've got to lock your phone up and they,

1269
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 3: you know, they do all that, can't do anything. But

1270
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 3: it's it's a cube farm. I mean, it looks like

1271
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:42,880
Speaker 3: any office building and they just turn everything off so

1272
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:45,599
Speaker 3: you can't see anything. And so yeah, I can't tell

1273
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:46,719
Speaker 3: you anything there.

1274
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:51,680
Speaker 2: You'd be so good there. Yeah, that might be in

1275
01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 2: your future. You would be a man.

1276
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 5: Let's go, let's go. I want to be now.

1277
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 9: The man hunts probably are what the Marshals what I

1278
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 9: kind of of them like on TV right doing these

1279
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:06,200
Speaker 9: manhunts and hunting down these people that are out there.

1280
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 2: How close is that to the real thing?

1281
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:14,439
Speaker 3: It is one hundred percent real, the Marshals. So the

1282
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:17,680
Speaker 3: Marshall Service going back into so even if you go

1283
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:21,840
Speaker 3: back into the nineteenth century, so you think old West,

1284
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:26,679
Speaker 3: uh right, those and go get go, get the bad guys.

1285
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:31,800
Speaker 3: You know, that's that is legit history that I mean,

1286
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 3: it's there's portions of it that are Hollywood obviously, but

1287
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 3: you know, one of the reasons that the museum is

1288
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:41,800
Speaker 3: in Fortsmouth, Arkansas, which admittedly is kind of off the

1289
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:45,599
Speaker 3: beaten path for most people, is of the three hundred

1290
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 3: and ninety three men and women who've been killed in

1291
01:10:47,880 --> 01:10:50,080
Speaker 3: the wane of duty serving the Marshall service, one hundred

1292
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:53,639
Speaker 3: and twenty two of those, so a significant percentage were

1293
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 3: killed serving out of the Federal Court in Fortsmouth, Arkansas.

1294
01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 3: And that was during the nineteenth century because Oklahoma, the

1295
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:06,000
Speaker 3: statey of Oklahoma is Indian territory, and you know, the

1296
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:08,120
Speaker 3: bad guys when they wanted to escape the arm of

1297
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:10,920
Speaker 3: the law, they would just ride across the river and

1298
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:13,799
Speaker 3: go into Indian territory and try to escape west.

1299
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:17,880
Speaker 13: And so the marshals were legitimately the ones that would

1300
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:22,360
Speaker 13: get on horseback most often alone, are in small groups,

1301
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,120
Speaker 13: and go off and find the bad guys and bring

1302
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 13: them back to face justice. So fast forward into the

1303
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 13: twentieth and twenty first century. Now, the Marshal's Service is

1304
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:37,679
Speaker 13: they are the undisputed experts. And I'm biased, but they're

1305
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 13: the undisputed experts when it comes to fugitive apprehension and tracking.

1306
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 13: So in the seventies, the federal law enforcement agencies, that

1307
01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:52,679
Speaker 13: kind of alphabet cocktail of different agencies handed the Marshall

1308
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:56,839
Speaker 13: Service responsibility for all federal fugitives. So although they partner

1309
01:11:56,960 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 13: with FBI, A t FDA, the Marshals Servius are the

1310
01:12:01,160 --> 01:12:05,360
Speaker 13: ones that really they don't do a ton of investigations

1311
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:08,760
Speaker 13: as such anymore. They do some, but.

1312
01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 3: Usually it's we built the case, here's the guy, go

1313
01:12:13,240 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 3: find him. And whether it's in the United States or

1314
01:12:17,360 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 3: around the world, they're the best at it. And so

1315
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:21,320
Speaker 3: when we're talking about some of these cases that I

1316
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:23,640
Speaker 3: know we're going to talk about, they really have the

1317
01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 3: technical expertise, the technology, the experience, and they are they

1318
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 3: don't quit man. It's really absolutely I.

1319
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 1: Mean, it certainly seems like there's been a lot of

1320
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:37,160
Speaker 1: man hunts in the news. Yeah, listen, we're lucky enough

1321
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:40,360
Speaker 1: to be talking about the US Marshals with Ben Johnson.

1322
01:12:40,760 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 1: He's the president and CEO of the US Marshall's museum,

1323
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:46,160
Speaker 1: and we have to ask you about that.

1324
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 2: What is going on? Tell us everything about them?

1325
01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:50,000
Speaker 5: Yes, what's up about this museum?

1326
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:54,960
Speaker 3: So though the worry are the first federal law enforcement

1327
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:57,040
Speaker 3: agency was around it for a couple of hundred years.

1328
01:12:57,240 --> 01:12:59,759
Speaker 3: The FBI had a museum that DEEA has a museum.

1329
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,599
Speaker 3: There are a lot of federal museums that the agency

1330
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:05,960
Speaker 3: was going, well, why don't we have one. What's going on?

1331
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 3: We've been around the long game, we have the most

1332
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 3: storied history's let's make this happen. So over the decades

1333
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 3: from the seventies up into the nineties, there was one

1334
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:18,600
Speaker 3: small museum out out further west in Wyoming. There's a

1335
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:22,559
Speaker 3: traveling exhibit. But the service wanted an independent museum that

1336
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:26,559
Speaker 3: was kind of outside of the federal museum system, and

1337
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:29,360
Speaker 3: so they put it up for communities across the country

1338
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:32,080
Speaker 3: to say, if you want our museum, tell us why,

1339
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:35,439
Speaker 3: and we'll pick. And so in two thousand and seven,

1340
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 3: because of the history of the Federal Court out of

1341
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:44,280
Speaker 3: Fort Smith, they basically selected Fort Smith, Arkansas, and to congratulations,

1342
01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:48,360
Speaker 3: there you go. There's no federal money, there's none of.

1343
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:53,840
Speaker 1: The gradulations you get moral support and your race.

1344
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 3: So we got spent fifteen years practically raising about fifty

1345
01:13:59,320 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 3: million dollars. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable. We built this amazing

1346
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 3: facility on the banks of the Arkansas River. We're looking

1347
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:14,880
Speaker 3: across into Oklahoma, which was formerly Indian Territory, and we

1348
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:19,360
Speaker 3: tell the history of the nation's premiere and the first

1349
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:24,799
Speaker 3: federal law enforcement agency. And so we it's fifty thousand

1350
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:28,960
Speaker 3: square foot facility around sixteen acres, and we have we

1351
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:32,280
Speaker 3: tell an American history story through the lens of the

1352
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:35,720
Speaker 3: Marshall Service, from the Constitution in seventeen eighty nine all

1353
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 3: the way up into the present day. So we touch

1354
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:41,200
Speaker 3: on the Old West, we touch on the Civil Rights era,

1355
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:45,160
Speaker 3: we touch on social disruptions and riots and manhunts and

1356
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:47,720
Speaker 3: all those sorts of things anything you can think of

1357
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:52,479
Speaker 3: up to the present day, including a current top fifteen

1358
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:54,840
Speaker 3: most Wanted fugitive list that lives on the wall of

1359
01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:59,680
Speaker 3: our gallery that we will swap out as they catch

1360
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:00,880
Speaker 3: them and bring them in.

1361
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:01,799
Speaker 13: And so it's really.

1362
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:07,719
Speaker 3: It is awesome. Really, I mean, I am.

1363
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:07,559
Speaker 5: I would love to see that.

1364
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:12,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, come on down.

1365
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:16,920
Speaker 3: Yeah it is Arkansas is beautiful, Arkansas is amazing. Yeah,

1366
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:23,960
Speaker 3: I wouldn't come in August. August is a little hot.

1367
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:21,599
Speaker 10: I think.

1368
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:27,599
Speaker 9: Your Vegas is it your Eureka Springs at all? Up

1369
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:30,600
Speaker 9: there in northwest Arkansas. I'm not sure where it's at me.

1370
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:32,720
Speaker 9: I've been there before and it's beautiful.

1371
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:36,400
Speaker 3: It is then oragest part of the country. And really

1372
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:39,080
Speaker 3: you could pick up this museum and take it anywhere

1373
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:40,800
Speaker 3: in the country or anywhere in the world and it

1374
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:44,760
Speaker 3: would fit in perfectly. So you know, it really is

1375
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:47,519
Speaker 3: just a remarkable opportunity for us. And we're telling cool

1376
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 3: stories and been open a couple of years and now

1377
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:51,559
Speaker 3: we're getting out with new friends like you.

1378
01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:52,639
Speaker 2: I love.

1379
01:15:52,840 --> 01:15:56,120
Speaker 1: Uh, We're all excited to visit and listen, we only

1380
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:59,519
Speaker 1: have about a minute. But if someone's visiting for the

1381
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:02,080
Speaker 1: first time time, what's one thing you hope they walk

1382
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:02,519
Speaker 1: away with?

1383
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:04,880
Speaker 10: Ms?

1384
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 3: You know, people need people, I think, especially now, need

1385
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:11,640
Speaker 3: to have a good opportunity and a good understanding of

1386
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:15,599
Speaker 3: law enforcement in general, and really just knowing that these

1387
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:17,280
Speaker 3: are men and women who are trying to do their

1388
01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:21,120
Speaker 3: best and really they're individuals that are dedicating their lives

1389
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:25,760
Speaker 3: to something bigger than themselves. And although you know it

1390
01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:30,720
Speaker 3: is easy to dehumanize law enforcement and say that they're

1391
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:33,759
Speaker 3: the enemy or they're doing all this bad stuff. These

1392
01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:36,280
Speaker 3: these folks really put it all on the line for

1393
01:16:36,439 --> 01:16:39,479
Speaker 3: peanuts when it comes to money, and and that is

1394
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 3: our job to make sure that they know we appreciate them.

1395
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:45,599
Speaker 3: But in terms of favorite exhibits and stuff, we built

1396
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:47,080
Speaker 3: a saloon that.

1397
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:55,280
Speaker 12: Has a digital bartender, you an interactive poker table, trivia thing,

1398
01:16:55,439 --> 01:16:58,599
Speaker 12: and so that's the coolest.

1399
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 2: I love that. Listen, we'll stick around.

1400
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:04,320
Speaker 1: We're lucky and Ben Johnson will be staying with us,

1401
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:06,400
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about the US marshall's role

1402
01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 1: in some of the most infamous manhunts. We're talking Travis Decker,

1403
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:13,599
Speaker 1: We're talking to Bellwy Sniper, So keep it here. True

1404
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:16,519
Speaker 1: Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all the time, and

1405
01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:19,160
Speaker 1: if you want to speak to Ben, give us a call.

1406
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:21,200
Speaker 1: Eighty eight three one Crime.

1407
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 8: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been

1408
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:37,920
Speaker 8: talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here

1409
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:41,439
Speaker 8: with Courtney Armstrong, Body Move In and we are talking

1410
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:45,320
Speaker 8: all things US marshals, the heroes that are behind the

1411
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:48,920
Speaker 8: scenes keeping us all safe, going in and doing the

1412
01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:53,000
Speaker 8: hard stuff, the sacrifice. I mean, it's really just something

1413
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:55,600
Speaker 8: we all need to be reminded of because behind the

1414
01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:59,400
Speaker 8: scenes and some of the biggest manhunts, these huge cases,

1415
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:03,360
Speaker 8: there are US marshals doing the work away from their

1416
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:04,760
Speaker 8: families and putting.

1417
01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:05,879
Speaker 2: It all on the line, quite literally.

1418
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:09,120
Speaker 8: So Ben Johnson, thank you for being with us and

1419
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:12,760
Speaker 8: continuing to tell us these harrowing tales of success and heroism.

1420
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:15,240
Speaker 2: Before we go any further, let's go to a quick

1421
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:15,679
Speaker 2: talk back.

1422
01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:17,679
Speaker 3: Hey, my name is Kyle.

1423
01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:20,519
Speaker 6: My wife Whitney, works on True Crime Tonight a police

1424
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:23,640
Speaker 6: officer in Ohio. I'm also a w US Marshall with

1425
01:18:23,760 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 6: the So Fast Task Force. Being all the Muscle services

1426
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:30,559
Speaker 6: has been an amazing experience. I've got to work with

1427
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:32,439
Speaker 6: a whole bunch of different agencies, put a lot of

1428
01:18:32,439 --> 01:18:35,599
Speaker 6: bad guys behind bars. Yes, listen to you guys all

1429
01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:38,000
Speaker 6: the time. Keep up the good work and thank you

1430
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:38,559
Speaker 6: for what you do.

1431
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:42,439
Speaker 2: Yay, Okay. So we love Kyle.

1432
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:46,880
Speaker 8: So that's Kyle, and our associate producer who is on

1433
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:50,080
Speaker 8: our staff and on our team, Whitney, that's her husband,

1434
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:54,479
Speaker 8: and we're just so proud. So, you know, again, just

1435
01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:57,360
Speaker 8: a way to kind of highlight some of these moments

1436
01:18:57,360 --> 01:18:58,400
Speaker 8: of heroine.

1437
01:18:58,840 --> 01:19:03,320
Speaker 1: He's a young guy doing such good work and it's

1438
01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:09,040
Speaker 1: just a dedicated, kind human and those things about to

1439
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:11,200
Speaker 1: be Whitney, and Whitney's the greatest.

1440
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:12,840
Speaker 2: And you think about it being deployed.

1441
01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:15,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, as a mom, as a supportive wife, you know,

1442
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:19,439
Speaker 8: with children, Listen, you know, let's not take for granted

1443
01:19:19,479 --> 01:19:23,679
Speaker 8: to sacrifice that is so let alone going in being

1444
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:26,760
Speaker 8: a US marshal and serving our country or in any

1445
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:30,120
Speaker 8: of the forces. And let alone the families who have to,

1446
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:34,360
Speaker 8: you know, hold down the fort literally quite literally, you know,

1447
01:19:34,479 --> 01:19:37,160
Speaker 8: with kids and families and jobs and money, all the things.

1448
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:38,200
Speaker 5: It's a lot.

1449
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:39,599
Speaker 2: So this hats off.

1450
01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:42,640
Speaker 9: Yes, okay, Ben, listen, I've been dying to ask you

1451
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:46,719
Speaker 9: about this case. We have been following the Travis Decker case. Yes,

1452
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:50,280
Speaker 9: let's start with that. Every day I checked the news

1453
01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:52,280
Speaker 9: or I would check the news. What's going on with

1454
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:54,760
Speaker 9: Travis Decker, what's going on in Trav What role did

1455
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:57,639
Speaker 9: the US marshals play in that manhunt? And what stood

1456
01:19:57,640 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 9: out to you about how it was handled.

1457
01:20:00,120 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 3: It's a remarkable case. And I think it's remarkable in

1458
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:06,960
Speaker 3: the sense that it is so it's not similar to

1459
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:09,559
Speaker 3: a lot of other things, but specifically in relation to

1460
01:20:09,560 --> 01:20:12,559
Speaker 3: the Marshall Service. So admittedly this is a new a

1461
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:16,320
Speaker 3: new case. This, you know, the things that the updates

1462
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:20,760
Speaker 3: are happening in real time, relatively recently, so you know

1463
01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:22,960
Speaker 3: a lot of this hasn't passed into history yet where

1464
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:26,400
Speaker 3: they've they've really had a chance to digest everything that's happened.

1465
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:29,720
Speaker 3: And then you know, usually for us, recent is a

1466
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 3: couple of decades, you know, from a museum standpoint, so

1467
01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:36,680
Speaker 3: you know days, days, weeks, months. But I think the

1468
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:42,840
Speaker 3: critical thing is when it clearly became uh you know,

1469
01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:47,160
Speaker 3: the the victims were found and acknowledged in the identified

1470
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:52,439
Speaker 3: him as as the potential perpetrator, and when the Martial

1471
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:56,559
Speaker 3: Service basically the responsibility for the fugitive side, going back

1472
01:20:56,560 --> 01:21:00,519
Speaker 3: to what we were talking about before, the Marecial Service

1473
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,320
Speaker 3: took on the responsibility of finding the individual. And so

1474
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:10,639
Speaker 3: what the Marshal Service is tremendous at is as good

1475
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:13,200
Speaker 3: as they are, they are also one of the smallest,

1476
01:21:13,240 --> 01:21:17,120
Speaker 3: if not the smallest, federal agency from a law enforcement standpoint,

1477
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:22,920
Speaker 3: but they are a force multiplier par excellence, and so

1478
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:27,800
Speaker 3: that they are able to take state, local, county and

1479
01:21:27,880 --> 01:21:31,240
Speaker 3: other federal agencies and get the absolute best and squeeze

1480
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:36,280
Speaker 3: the most and whatever resources they need. They basically get

1481
01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:40,439
Speaker 3: double the amount of energy out of a small group

1482
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:44,640
Speaker 3: of people. So for this particular case, the marshals utilize

1483
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:50,280
Speaker 3: their technical operations, which they are They won't talk to

1484
01:21:50,360 --> 01:21:53,000
Speaker 3: really about this either, but they are incredibly good at

1485
01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:58,240
Speaker 3: distilling information, whether it's digital or otherwise, and identifying where

1486
01:21:58,280 --> 01:22:01,080
Speaker 3: people are, how they are, how they canmmunicate where they going.

1487
01:22:02,080 --> 01:22:06,240
Speaker 3: This particular case, you know, the dudes likely you know,

1488
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:08,080
Speaker 3: out in the middle of nowhere, but they didn't know that.

1489
01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:11,640
Speaker 3: I mean they you know, what all you find is

1490
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:14,639
Speaker 3: is a couple of bodies. They could be anywhere in

1491
01:22:14,680 --> 01:22:18,839
Speaker 3: the country or Canada or Mexico. So the Martiall service

1492
01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:21,840
Speaker 3: is great at taking in a massive amount of data

1493
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:25,200
Speaker 3: and distilling it down in a way to make the

1494
01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:28,479
Speaker 3: best possible decisions in a short time. But they also

1495
01:22:28,600 --> 01:22:35,240
Speaker 3: use traditional investigation techniques. So they're asking questions, they're out

1496
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:40,200
Speaker 3: in the woods, they're with the dogs, they're with the helicopters,

1497
01:22:40,240 --> 01:22:43,160
Speaker 3: and you know the drones. You know, drones these days,

1498
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:47,439
Speaker 3: those are relatively new. So you know, this particular case,

1499
01:22:47,479 --> 01:22:49,680
Speaker 3: I think it would be interesting, you know, when the

1500
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:53,680
Speaker 3: dust settles and when the time comes for them to

1501
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:58,280
Speaker 3: really discuss all of the efforts that went into bringing

1502
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:02,240
Speaker 3: this to a conclusion. It'll be interesting to see who

1503
01:23:02,240 --> 01:23:06,559
Speaker 3: did what when and how all of those dominoes fell

1504
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:08,879
Speaker 3: to be able to get to the point where you

1505
01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:12,320
Speaker 3: find the perpetrate. I mean, it's really insane.

1506
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:15,519
Speaker 8: And remember, like he was very dangerous. We know that

1507
01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:19,240
Speaker 8: he Travis Decker, was off his medication. He was suffering

1508
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:23,559
Speaker 8: from a lot going on, potentially from PTSD, maybe even

1509
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:26,760
Speaker 8: from serving at a later earlier time. You know, any

1510
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:29,840
Speaker 8: of all the survival training he had, all the survival training.

1511
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:33,479
Speaker 8: So again now at days and days, weeks and weeks

1512
01:23:33,520 --> 01:23:36,840
Speaker 8: being potentially in the Marshals, never gave up the Marshals.

1513
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:39,920
Speaker 8: We have said this off camera. Yeah, so many times

1514
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:42,800
Speaker 8: we're like, you know what the idea that humans are

1515
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:47,280
Speaker 8: going night day brawling walking every inch of that.

1516
01:23:47,200 --> 01:23:51,680
Speaker 9: This terrain is hostile, right like it is it's densely

1517
01:23:51,840 --> 01:23:53,520
Speaker 9: forested right correct.

1518
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:57,800
Speaker 2: And it's a thousand vac of elevation is how high

1519
01:23:57,840 --> 01:23:58,639
Speaker 2: he was? Yeah?

1520
01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:01,880
Speaker 9: Why so this isn't like you know, a beach in California.

1521
01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:06,400
Speaker 9: This is like rugged terrain that the Marshals and other

1522
01:24:06,439 --> 01:24:09,479
Speaker 9: agencies too are looking for. But primarily the Marshalls seem

1523
01:24:09,560 --> 01:24:13,320
Speaker 9: to be like the people in charge of these manhunts.

1524
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:16,120
Speaker 3: And it's pretty amazing when you think of it. I mean,

1525
01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:19,640
Speaker 3: when you when you think of our everyday stress. You know,

1526
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:23,680
Speaker 3: on the job, we're stressed out about whatever it is.

1527
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:26,080
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not getting a response from a vendor,

1528
01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:29,840
Speaker 3: or no one's returning my email or whatever. These guys,

1529
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:33,000
Speaker 3: these guys are out there crawling around in the woods,

1530
01:24:33,080 --> 01:24:34,720
Speaker 3: or even if it's an urban setting. You're in an

1531
01:24:34,840 --> 01:24:37,120
Speaker 3: urban setting, you're going door to door. You don't know

1532
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:40,960
Speaker 3: literally what is behind that door. It could be empty,

1533
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:42,720
Speaker 3: it could be a little kid, it could be a

1534
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,960
Speaker 3: guy with a machine gun. And you won't know until

1535
01:24:45,960 --> 01:24:49,639
Speaker 3: you get there. And so you know you are out there,

1536
01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:52,599
Speaker 3: you just get up and you go do it. And

1537
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:57,960
Speaker 3: it's it is. Most people could not deal with the stress.

1538
01:24:57,960 --> 01:25:00,240
Speaker 3: And that's why, you know, not to bring it to

1539
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:02,519
Speaker 3: you know, a real downer. But that's why these these

1540
01:25:02,760 --> 01:25:05,640
Speaker 3: women really, you know, they struggle with the stresses of

1541
01:25:05,680 --> 01:25:07,680
Speaker 3: their life and so being able to put what they

1542
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:10,840
Speaker 3: do and into context. I think it's important and you

1543
01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:15,160
Speaker 3: know the fact that you know they are so successful

1544
01:25:15,800 --> 01:25:20,040
Speaker 3: so much of the time, and that the the the

1545
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:25,639
Speaker 3: incidents of duty deaths are relatively low for the Marshal

1546
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:29,160
Speaker 3: Service and for other agencies. It's really remarkable. I mean

1547
01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:32,360
Speaker 3: you would expect with the Looney Tunes world that we

1548
01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:36,080
Speaker 3: live in, Yeah, you would expect far more, you know,

1549
01:25:36,120 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 3: death and destruction, and so God bless them for doing it.

1550
01:25:38,479 --> 01:25:41,320
Speaker 3: And they really are the best when it comes to

1551
01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:46,000
Speaker 3: kind of getting that web of tools together and bringing

1552
01:25:46,000 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 3: it to.

1553
01:25:46,240 --> 01:25:50,559
Speaker 8: Bear the true American spirit period the end of your afflimation,

1554
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:53,559
Speaker 8: like life on the line for us.

1555
01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:56,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, I actually helping the most dangerous people too. I mean,

1556
01:25:56,800 --> 01:25:59,960
Speaker 9: these aren't just you know, the guy who stole candy

1557
01:26:00,080 --> 01:26:03,800
Speaker 9: bar right, exactly, really dangerous people that they're hunting and there,

1558
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:05,479
Speaker 9: and they're.

1559
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:09,040
Speaker 8: Not policymakers, right, These are devoted men and women who

1560
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:12,960
Speaker 8: are showing up political single day to stand for us,

1561
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:17,479
Speaker 8: to protect us despite anything happening in the world that's

1562
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:22,200
Speaker 8: wild and the devotion and the bravery is unparalleled.

1563
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:25,599
Speaker 3: I agree, And that's a tremendous point. And I want

1564
01:26:25,920 --> 01:26:28,639
Speaker 3: to underline that because I think it's important for people

1565
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:31,040
Speaker 3: to know, especially when you look on the news and

1566
01:26:31,680 --> 01:26:36,000
Speaker 3: you know, people taking taking shots at law enforcement facilities

1567
01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:39,599
Speaker 3: and doing these men and women are not the ones

1568
01:26:39,680 --> 01:26:42,639
Speaker 3: making the policy decisions. You know, they have a chain

1569
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:45,600
Speaker 3: of command and they're being tasked and said, Okay, this

1570
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:47,720
Speaker 3: is what you're going to go do today, and you know,

1571
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:50,479
Speaker 3: they don't have an option, you know, of going back

1572
01:26:50,479 --> 01:26:53,360
Speaker 3: and saying, boss, I really want to you know, let's

1573
01:26:53,400 --> 01:26:55,960
Speaker 3: tell the department think about how I feel about this,

1574
01:26:56,200 --> 01:26:58,479
Speaker 3: like I want to do. They don't get that chance,

1575
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:00,960
Speaker 3: you know, so they I have to do it within

1576
01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:03,320
Speaker 3: the bounds of the law, and do it safely and

1577
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:04,000
Speaker 3: do it whatever.

1578
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 13: But they do it.

1579
01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:11,320
Speaker 3: They do a dangerous job, man, and it's really remarkable.

1580
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:15,639
Speaker 1: It's super valiant, it really is. If you're just joining us.

1581
01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:18,439
Speaker 1: We have Ben Johnson. He is president and CEO of

1582
01:27:18,479 --> 01:27:23,320
Speaker 1: the US Marshall's Museum. It's in for Fort Smith, Arkansas,

1583
01:27:24,439 --> 01:27:27,760
Speaker 1: and everyone who's there or traveling to should go.

1584
01:27:28,439 --> 01:27:28,719
Speaker 2: Ben.

1585
01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:31,720
Speaker 1: While we have you, we wanted to ask you about

1586
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:37,720
Speaker 1: the Beltway manhunt, the Beltway Sniper investigation. Rather, how did

1587
01:27:37,720 --> 01:27:40,640
Speaker 1: the marshals coordinate all of the agencies?

1588
01:27:41,560 --> 01:27:45,680
Speaker 3: So this one is wild. I mean, I'm showing my

1589
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:48,479
Speaker 3: age a little bit. But when I started thinking about

1590
01:27:48,479 --> 01:27:51,960
Speaker 3: this one again, it was remarkable that this was twenty

1591
01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:54,720
Speaker 3: something years ago, that this and I remember watching this

1592
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:57,479
Speaker 3: on TV and going through and going, oh my god,

1593
01:27:57,520 --> 01:28:01,000
Speaker 3: what are they doing? Like this is crazy. So the

1594
01:28:01,280 --> 01:28:07,559
Speaker 3: Beltway Sniper series of events back twenty some years ago

1595
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:11,479
Speaker 3: now was It's remarkable in the sense so that it

1596
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:15,240
Speaker 3: is very a very modern case, but it was also

1597
01:28:15,400 --> 01:28:18,679
Speaker 3: hamstrung by a handful of things that we don't even

1598
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:21,719
Speaker 3: we take for granted technology now and the ability to

1599
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:25,080
Speaker 3: track people by their cell phone and you know, know

1600
01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:27,280
Speaker 3: who's where, and the video you know, the prevalent to

1601
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:29,760
Speaker 3: video cameras and all of that sort of thing. But

1602
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:33,080
Speaker 3: when you are living in the Grand Washington, DC area

1603
01:28:33,160 --> 01:28:36,559
Speaker 3: in the early two thousands and people just start getting

1604
01:28:37,439 --> 01:28:42,840
Speaker 3: assassinated with high powered rifles out of nowhere, you know,

1605
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:48,200
Speaker 3: you're you're you're filling your car up with gas and

1606
01:28:48,240 --> 01:28:51,200
Speaker 3: you're done. You're walking out of home depot and you're done.

1607
01:28:51,400 --> 01:28:56,000
Speaker 3: You're a kid walking into school and you're and to

1608
01:28:56,120 --> 01:28:59,160
Speaker 3: think at the time, and you know, I vaguely remember

1609
01:28:59,240 --> 01:29:02,519
Speaker 3: some of this about out about the you know, the

1610
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:07,000
Speaker 3: local jurisdictions and in who was handling the case. You

1611
01:29:07,080 --> 01:29:15,240
Speaker 3: know that it became this this kind of terrifying months

1612
01:29:15,320 --> 01:29:18,640
Speaker 3: long deal where you weren't sure, nobody was sure what

1613
01:29:18,680 --> 01:29:21,040
Speaker 3: the heck was going to happen. And and so you know,

1614
01:29:21,080 --> 01:29:23,280
Speaker 3: to look at it from the Marshall Service perspective, I mean,

1615
01:29:23,360 --> 01:29:25,960
Speaker 3: this was not just a martial service case. This was

1616
01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:30,400
Speaker 3: all hands on deck. But the marshals are always especially

1617
01:29:30,439 --> 01:29:33,559
Speaker 3: in and around DC. You know, the Marshals have a

1618
01:29:33,680 --> 01:29:38,280
Speaker 3: critical part to play because they are great at coordination

1619
01:29:38,600 --> 01:29:42,880
Speaker 3: and streamlining some efforts. And although you had I think

1620
01:29:42,920 --> 01:29:45,920
Speaker 3: it was Prince William County, you had, you know, the

1621
01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:51,799
Speaker 3: Maryland and DC police, you had, FBI obviously is involved

1622
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:55,040
Speaker 3: in all of this. You have this multi jurisdictional nightmare

1623
01:29:55,320 --> 01:29:59,920
Speaker 3: where you have murders in different jurisdictions. Everyone wants to

1624
01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:05,639
Speaker 3: take control of their own investigation, and a lot of times,

1625
01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:08,400
Speaker 3: you know, either the Marshall Service or the FBI or

1626
01:30:08,439 --> 01:30:10,719
Speaker 3: whatever would be stuck in the middle kind of going,

1627
01:30:11,080 --> 01:30:15,960
Speaker 3: what guys, what are we doing? Like we got to no, no, no,

1628
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:18,519
Speaker 3: we can't do we can't say that, we can't do that.

1629
01:30:19,120 --> 01:30:21,479
Speaker 3: And then it's also an interesting you know, from a

1630
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:24,439
Speaker 3: technological standpoint, the marshals have always been on the forefront

1631
01:30:24,479 --> 01:30:27,760
Speaker 3: of being able to coordinate information, and the FBI gets

1632
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:29,559
Speaker 3: a lot of credit for this too, you know, going

1633
01:30:29,600 --> 01:30:33,240
Speaker 3: back into the thirties and the forties and really being

1634
01:30:33,240 --> 01:30:37,040
Speaker 3: able to create some of the kind of modern policing techniques.

1635
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:40,400
Speaker 3: And it's not really data analytics back then, because it's

1636
01:30:40,640 --> 01:30:43,920
Speaker 3: you know, index cards and a file system, but you

1637
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:46,880
Speaker 3: know it is. That was the beginning of it. So

1638
01:30:46,920 --> 01:30:51,439
Speaker 3: with the cniper case, it was very much about you

1639
01:30:51,560 --> 01:30:56,599
Speaker 3: had all of this information, You had America's most wanted

1640
01:30:56,680 --> 01:31:01,240
Speaker 3: doing all of these They dedicated all of the shows

1641
01:31:01,320 --> 01:31:05,720
Speaker 3: to it. You have the news media who is just

1642
01:31:06,120 --> 01:31:10,479
Speaker 3: spitting out hearsay in a lot of instances, well it's

1643
01:31:10,520 --> 01:31:12,559
Speaker 3: a it's a white van. No, it's this.

1644
01:31:12,760 --> 01:31:14,479
Speaker 13: So you're sending law.

1645
01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:17,960
Speaker 3: Enforcement down different rabbit holes in terms of how this works,

1646
01:31:18,280 --> 01:31:22,080
Speaker 3: and so, you know, the marshals really did a valiant

1647
01:31:22,120 --> 01:31:26,720
Speaker 3: effort of creating a system that could collate and process

1648
01:31:26,880 --> 01:31:30,000
Speaker 3: all of the data. The hundreds or thousands of leads

1649
01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:32,720
Speaker 3: that were coming in at any given moment. You know

1650
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:34,880
Speaker 3: that one of them could be good, but the vast

1651
01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:38,439
Speaker 3: majority of them are probably just junk, right, And you know,

1652
01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:43,800
Speaker 3: people say, and it's it's just remarkable that they were

1653
01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:46,320
Speaker 3: able to do what they did in a given a

1654
01:31:46,360 --> 01:31:49,639
Speaker 3: period of time. So really, by by filtering it, by

1655
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:52,719
Speaker 3: working with that with the FBI and the other groups,

1656
01:31:53,040 --> 01:31:58,320
Speaker 3: the technical operations groups and other basically brought local and

1657
01:31:58,320 --> 01:32:04,360
Speaker 3: state law enforcement together. And it was it's a miracle,

1658
01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:07,559
Speaker 3: honestly that they were able to pull us together. And

1659
01:32:07,600 --> 01:32:10,440
Speaker 3: some of it was, you know, the evil of the individuals,

1660
01:32:10,479 --> 01:32:15,320
Speaker 3: and that they were anxious to communicate with law enforcement.

1661
01:32:15,360 --> 01:32:18,880
Speaker 3: If they hadn't been interested in communicating, it's just wowd

1662
01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:21,040
Speaker 3: But they did.

1663
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:26,519
Speaker 1: But they did, And I am feeling so inspired. I mean,

1664
01:32:27,160 --> 01:32:29,720
Speaker 1: you guys have to be too, Ben We I don't

1665
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:30,760
Speaker 1: think we can thank you enough.

1666
01:32:30,840 --> 01:32:32,880
Speaker 2: We're so happy you joined us. I hope you come again.

1667
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:41,519
Speaker 1: For anyone listening, get over to the US Marshall's Museum.

1668
01:32:41,560 --> 01:32:44,200
Speaker 1: It is in Fort Smith, Arkansas, and it is an

1669
01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:51,320
Speaker 1: incredible place you experience history and everything Marshals related. Yes, yeah,

1670
01:32:51,320 --> 01:32:54,800
Speaker 1: I love to Shawan and Mirra and yeah, yes, absolutely,

1671
01:32:54,840 --> 01:32:58,559
Speaker 1: thank you Jessica Kaplan for joining us. And listen, we

1672
01:32:58,600 --> 01:33:00,439
Speaker 1: will see you on Zore. We will speak to you

1673
01:33:00,479 --> 01:33:05,080
Speaker 1: on Sundays. Is True Crime tonight and yeah, be safe

1674
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:05,760
Speaker 1: and be well.

1675
01:33:06,320 --> 01:33:16,360
Speaker 5: Bye.